Welcome to another Principle of Hospitality podcast. Thanks so much for tuning into this episode brought to you by Principle Design and Philoderma. Principle of Hospitality has been developed to tell the stories of professionals within the dynamic world of hospitality. We're straight talking, ethically minded, and a reliable online source of information and inspiration for people in the hospitality industry.

Welcome to the Principle of Hospitality podcast. I am your host, Leon Kennedy. I'm really, really pleased and stoked to be sitting here with someone today that I can safely describe as the nicest guy in hospitality. I think that's a fair assessment. He's a beautiful person who makes beautiful food. I'm talking about the chef and owner at Vex Dining in Westgarth.

We are sitting here with Florian Ribble. Thanks for having me, Leon. That's made me blush. No worries, my man. It's so good to have you here, Flo. Um, I mean, particularly. It's just great to reconnect again. And I think it's also just awesome to be able to like have a chat with you where, you know, so many people, I feel like so many people in the industry know you, like, it's kind of like, you know, whenever your name comes up in conversation, people always like gush.

And then, you know, everyone just has like great things to say about you. But I feel like you somehow managed to like evade the glow of the spotlight, whether that has that been conscious or not. Um,

Weirdly, it became conscious. I don't think it's what I meant to do initially.

Okay.

I think I kind of um, Like my history here in melbourne has been sort of uh, yeah, i'm a parent as well So okay, there goes a lot of the socializing time um and then I think that uh Underneath it all it took me a long time to sort of start backing myself and feeling like I was worthy of being amongst a lot of my contemporaries which is I think that's quite natural for anybody who comes up and You know, you need to figure out where the confidence is going to start taking you.

It's that everyone gets that imposter syndrome kind of thing. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, uh, so yeah, look, I, I, I don't really know that many people. I haven't got a huge like community of chefs and hospital people around me, a couple of close people, but yeah, it's, um, it's been very much down my own track for the most part.

And I really appreciate like, All the hospital people that do come through. Um, I do love to see him. We don't get to catch up very much, but yeah It's a yeah still been a little bit under the radar and that's okay by me. Okay,

cool. Cool. Cool. Well, um, You know, I think that's great that you found a place of comfort with it, man, you know you You know the whole imposter syndrome thing and everyone struggles with it.

You you definitely don't ever appear to be someone that struggles with anything. I mean, I remember a few weeks ago, I um, I ditched this, this party I was at and just randomly showed up at Vex at fucking eight o'clock on a Saturday night. And you were, and I, and I just sat there, you know, fairly impolitely having a beer and you like fed me a couple of snacks.

And I remember you and at the end you were just like, oh man, we will we were going down so hard Like I was short stuff and I was like what I didn't even notice like what the hell. Yeah Yeah,

look, I think that those kind of moments like that's uh, that's all practiced, you know at the end of the day it's sort of like um, um Especially in small business, right?

You kind of put yourself in these positions that are always like If you're in a position of responsibility, then you're going to take on all of it And there's really no other way you just got to get through it

But, but, hey, I mean, let me, let me challenge you there. Most people don't hide that stress well, you know, so you've obviously worked out something others haven't, maybe it'll come through in the chat today.

I, I, I guess like there's a lot of ways we can do this. Um, there's so much to your journey that I think we could, we could cover today and it would all be amazing listening. But just in keeping with the purpose of the show, um, I thought it would be really awesome to get. Really honed in on Vex and and just the story thus far behind Vex because I mean you guys have had You know ups and downs you've had your fair share of adversity like every other restaurant in Melbourne Let's face it But I just think what's unique and really cool about what you guys are doing is that in the face of that adversity You guys have just kept showing up and doing amazing things And I just think your your story is gonna bring a lot of Support it's going to bring a bit of comfort and and definitely some inspiration to Just everyone else in the industry who's right now.

Everyone I feel is really ranging from languishing to Struggling and grinding and I just feel like everyone's in survival mode right now like it's fucking wild right like what's happening Like, maybe quick tangent, like, cause I've never seen it like this before. Um, and I'm one of the last people to ever get on that train of complaining about how hard hospitality is.

I've been a big proponent for the fact that it's just always hard and it's never been easy. Um, but, but we're seeing stuff right now that, that I don't think I've ever seen. Like, I mean, you know, every, I've seen this before when we were walking in. I feel like every heritage brand out there is a little bit under fire right now.

And we're seeing. I don't know whether it's, like, I would love to think of it as there's a bit of a, you know, passing of the baton going on, but it's, it doesn't feel like that at all. I mean, what's your take on this?

Yeah, look, we, um, We opened up at a tricky time and we talked about this just really briefly earlier Um, we don't we don't know what normal is and and we don't know if there's going to be a particular normal That sets in in the near future What we do know is that I think I think in the sort of adversity moments the only thing that you can really sort of lay down for Potential success is the fact that you just back yourself in your, your, your skill set.

Um, I think that's kind of it. Um, we're very much about being, um, about our craft, you know, it's, it's, it's about being hands on every day with it. Um, that's the owner operator experience in a small sort of. Scale thing. Yeah. Um, I can only imagine how difficult it is when you're a larger and over exerted and you know, we, we feel, we feel a couple of cancellations.

I can hardly imagine what it's like when you've got to fill, you know, a hundred person room and, you know, even getting a quarter of the way there. Um, but you know, uh, we have these sort of like predictions when COVID hit and that we were going to be part of that sort of new wave you're talking about the passing of the bat.

And then there was the time for the young people to kind of. Take the chance, because there was opportunities. That's how we, that's how VEX started really. Um, it wasn't, it was always a plan, but it really ended up being just out of other people's desperation to get out. Got it. That we got our end.

Interesting. Um, so, we knew that, you know, We probably couldn't really afford to do very much with anything, but we knew that we backed ourselves enough Yeah, no matter what it is, whatever the space is and whatever we need to do to make it work That we were going to do that

Man, there's a really great theme that I can detect in that where um, It's almost about this focus on let's control the things we can control, you know And that protects you a bit against the things you can't control.

That's right and it's funny I say that with a Smart a slight smile on my face because at work everyone is like so sick of me saying that over and over Sounds like you're just exemplifying it.

Yeah, I think that's actually one of the realizations that I took on uh largely last year, um when I think stuff got really quite quite dark there.

Um where we sort of felt like it was just Uncanny some of these weeks that we were having where you just don't know how to explain it um and that's the bit where you go like All right How are we doing everything that we can do to make sure that we're in the best position? But positioning ourselves in the best way for success um You know, sometimes you go.

All right, well we could do this better could do that better but then sometimes You just need to learn that there are controllables that are completely beyond you. Um, and that feeling particular sort of sadness around it, disappointment. Um, it's actually getting in the way of you possibly finding other more creative avenues, things to do with that time.

Um, that's kind of what I kind of took out of last year was that I needed to start. Dropping the bits. Yes. Like dropping the bits that really aren't in my control. Yeah. Um. So I mean

you, you start to stress about something you can't control and then it blocks the entrance. Yeah. For the new ideas on the things you can control.

And innovation effectively.

Absolutely. And like you can kind of do the whole sort of thing. Um, you know, we'd talk to other people in the industry. Um, contemporaries. Like hear what their stories are.

But that, that, that can kind of be good or bad, right?

Yeah. Like, I think it's kind of like, okay, good because.

We're all going through the same thing. Mm. Hearing similar stories. Mm-Hmm. , but also at the same time, like, um, you know, you run your own race. Right. You know? Right. Like, that's, that's kind of the, the main track on what I kind of like to take out of all this is that, you know, I don't really, I don't really care.

Mm-Hmm. You know, like, I, I do care. Like, it's sad that everybody else is doing it hard, but like, of course. Yeah. Your story's your story. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I'm gonna make my own.

Yes. Um, that's so empowering, man. And I, you know, I've gotta be honest with you, this is the stuff people need to hear right now because.

No one needs to hear more negativity. No one needs to hear more anxiousness. No one needs to hear more about how difficult it is. Like, we've got to think about the things that are going to empower us, you know, to, to make it through. And I just, I love what you're saying and the way that you put it.

Because it doesn't matter whether you go, you can go talk to an economist in a freaking business school. You can go and talk to like some hospitality consultant. But the way that you put it there is, I think, the most impactful. Because where my mind goes with this stuff is. For sure, like, there's a bit of a diagnostic that you have to apply, right?

And it's like, yeah, you gotta start with that idea of like, if you can't control your mindset, and you can't fill your mind with focuses that are really controlling the things you can control and finding that empowerment, like that's the first stage gate. Then, beyond that, there's a, there's a focus, like where I, I'm obviously a mechanics guy, right?

So I'm gonna go into the mechanics of everything business related, and it's really interesting to me because I think, you know, So where you second, secondly need to go to a secondary sort of sense is that you've got to get into the numbers because realistically, right, like everything comes back to that sort of architecture and you've got to start analysing your balance sheet in situations like this.

Like people don't do that and our industry is really, really prone to like not do that because we're so conditioned. to think about net operating profit, you know, or EBITDA, whatever you want to call it, right? Like we're just, that's the, we're managing COGS, we're managing labor, we're managing revenue. We don't go further than that.

But the truth is, right, how all those streams affect your balance sheet, it impacts your cash liquidity and cash liquidity is like oxygen right now. Yeah. And we're going deeper into this climate, you know, where that oxygen becomes more and more important and harder and harder to access. And the business is to understand.

debts that exist or that could exist, you know, and you know in their business how they can Structure or restructure those debts It's such a critical lever that is going to make a difference for so many people because everyone is effectively sitting there with all these unsophisticated debts and in their business and the other ones that are going to get hit first and they're the ones that are going to get hit first The hardest and so anyway enough of that I get that.

I get

that. It's like it's it's it is funny like, um, we we're on a lesser scale than that Obviously, it's that's quite um grand and these are big problems and especially people that do have these kind of debts There's definite definite sort of ways out of it I found that um, the majority of what we've sort of Learned throughout this sort of period where you do have this sort of yeah, it was cash flows a bit lower than anticipated um, you know, I think back to You Before last year, even we had a little period there.

Um, a business partner of ours left, um, left a bit of a hole. We were going through winter. It was quiet. It was the first time that we sort of actually went, you know what, um, the way the metrics kind of work for us right now, the way that things are in balance, it's actually better for us to do less. For a hot second right sure didn't take on more risk got it Take on the time and and it actually got us through the winter Through like quite time.

We went down to four days and we just refocused our efforts into like maximizing what we could do in those four days Um, uh, with less people. Amazing. It worked. It's not a comfortable way to operate. You know, there's definitely better, smoother ways to do it, but.

But, I mean, you could say that, but you could also argue that, like, what, what you're describing there, to me, is effectively a, a strategy around scaling.

And I think we all get conditioned to think that, Scale is about constant growth. And it's actually not linear, you know, it's like sometimes you, what, what you described that you did there is what I would call consolidation in a scaling capacity. And sometimes you have to consolidate to suit the environment so that you can then grow, you know, with better kind of veracity down downstream.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As we, we, we, um, when we set out to open open vex, we had a, um, a very limited sort of scope to do what we wanted to do. Um, and for us, the, the. Sustainability in a business sense, um, meant that, um, being able to do things that was in our control, that wasn't going to kill us and that wasn't going to overly stretch us financially, like to, to the huge sort of risk sort of world.

Um, we, we, we realized very quickly that, yeah, operating sustainability has, uh, sustainably has a lot of different ways of going about it. And if you've got the flexibility within yourself, To be okay with that, um, to, to rethink things. And sometimes you do have to dig a little bit deeper yourself personally to make that happen.

But yeah, it's, it's a lot more doable than you think. Sure. Um,

it's also, it's a, there's a bit of a lesson in humility there too, because it's hard to own that, but it's also like, what, what would you rather, would you rather just, you know, consolidate a bit and wear that or just keep doing what you're doing and then potentially have to shut the doors?

Yeah, that's right. I just love the way you put it, because I think what you have described there is just such great business advice for every single business in our industry right now.

Yeah.

I love that, man. So, hey, I want to, um, do a little bit of, a little bit of, um, some foreshadowing. So, I guess just like how we'll run through this is, like I said, I want to go through the CV.

I think we've got to run through the Jungle real quick and just finish up with the headlines. And then, I think after that, it'd be really good to dive into, you the story like I, like I sort of spoke about before. One thing I would really love to do is to just get into some of the mission stuff and, and why I think that's really important is cause again, right.

It's, it's super useful advice right now. And what's, what's really interesting for me is, um, to go back a little bit for context for everyone listening, right? Like it was, a few weeks ago, a few months ago, probably now that you kind of hit me up kind of out of the blue. Um, just, I guess it was a bit of a general business advice, wanting to think out loud a little bit and have a bit of a coffee and have a chat.

And you know, I told you what I basically tell everyone amongst other things, which is that, you know, if you can't be clear about your identity and if you can't articulate your purpose and your mission and whatnot, you're going to compromise everything you do downstream. And usually, I mean, that's, that's my bread and people.

Usually I'll give people stuff to think about, then run a couple of sessions, and usually after a session, maybe two, we end up articulating something that's reasonably compelling. What was just so funny and so classic about you is, we didn't do that at all, right? Like I just told you some stuff to think about, then you just kind of disappeared for a couple of weeks, and then just randomly like emailed me back, where you hadn't just thought about some stuff, you just wrote some stuff down.

And it floored me. It was just one of the most beautiful pieces of writing and it was just so profound and I don't think I could have facilitated sessions to get you there, you know. It still definitely needs to, you need to take that now and refine it and turn it into something really applicable and practical but I mean, it would be amazing, if you're comfortable it would be amazing to kind of go through that a little bit.

Yeah, I can touch on that. Yeah, awesome. Um, And then I think just from there, if we go into that practical piece, we can do a little bit of like, you know, live troubleshooting and just kind of see where we land.

Yeah, sure.

All right, amazing. Um, this is gonna be awesome, dude. So let's just kick off with the easy stuff, right?

Like tell us, run us through your CV real quick. And if you can, Let's, let's start with first job in hospitality, but then also maybe if you can jump to, um, first moment in hospitality, whether it was in that job or a later one where you knew that, okay, this is it. This is the career now that I'm committing to.

Can you?

Yeah, easy. Um, I was, uh, uh, well, not quite a late starter, but definitely not an early one. Um, had sort of chopped around. I think my first real hospital job was. I think I helped a friend of mine's parents who owned the, uh, sort of like a little Deli counter at the basketball center in Perth. Okay, um making sandwiches for a moment Okay, yeah, and were you like

on the counter or you'd make in the

back?

I was way too nervous to talk to human beings and do Monetary interactions even though they were just 12 year old kids really. Yeah. Um, how old

were you at the time? I

was probably like 18. Okay Yeah, I got a job as a kitchen hand in a cafe ended up being my first sort of thing Okay, I um, I went in there as a I was studying at uni at the time.

Um, so what were you studying? I was doing a fine arts degree.

Oh, cool. Yeah,

yeah. It's, you know, a wonderful way to waste time when you're not really all that focused on it. I was playing in punk bands at the time and I was sort of like, I just wanted to do anything except for focus on one thing, I guess.

Um, but yeah, I, um, I wanted to be a barista at one point in time because I thought that was a pretty good way to sort of like Be able to work and study and I thought it looked pretty cool Okay, um, but I got I got suckered. Um, I was I was made the kitchen hands, um, and I did not progress from there Um until a friend of mine got me um a job in a pub He was pouring pouring beers in a pub and I I got a job there in the kitchen.

Nope Uh, that was at the front. Yeah, so I was pouring beers in the in the pub Um, I noticed really quickly that that was not my ability Personality either. I mean you say

that, but you're obviously an amazing chef, but you're, like, I'd go as far as to say equally amazing on the floor. Is that like, uh, Learn later on.

Okay, got it.

I think, I think you have to find a little bit of comfort. Uh, where that sits with you and your personality, right? I just don't think I had

that back then. Sure. But I mean, were there some breadcrumbs there? Like, was that the moment in the pub that maybe started?

I knew that I liked the service elements.

Okay. I didn't know how to facilitate them. Sure. Okay, got it. That's really interesting. I got moved to, um, the bistro there. Um, and was waiting. And I liked that a lot more. Okay. Like, not being in the open pub environment. But they have like a little bistro thing. So I was just waiting the tables there. A bit more intimate.

Yeah. Yeah. But what I noticed was, There was how much fun the kitchen we're having, um, and that was when I just sort of asked the head chef one day if there was any chance I could come in and just do some prep on my time just to kind of like hang out. Cause I just, I just noticed them having a good time and it was just a different camaraderie and um, he would have loved that.

Yeah. And uh, and yeah, he invited me in and then he was like, you know what, I'm just going to tell the general manager that you're in the kitchen for now. And that was, that's where I started cooking. Um,

and is

that the moment

that you knew or did that come later? No.

Things had started falling into place a little bit previously.

I think, um, I did, I went to boarding school, uh, before I finished school. Uh, and then my mom had already been sort of like making sure I was going to be capable of cooking for myself. So that started relatively early. Okay. I always enjoyed the process of it. Um, having gone to, you know, an arts based course as well, I wanted to do something where I thought there was going to be some form of creativity if I take this quite seriously.

Um, and then that's sort of where it kind of went, right. There might be something here cause I enjoy the environment. I enjoy the fact that there's progression, like obvious progression,

right.

And, um, that you are working every day. I like working with my hands every day. I just knew that that had to be a part of my life.

Um, and then yeah, the fact that like, if you do really get to that point that you get to start deciding the way things go, that there's endless creative possibilities. Um, and yeah, that sort of clicked at that point in time. So

you kind of identified early that there's like, you know, there's a culture, there's creativity, there's process, there's learning.

And I guess, you know, all those stars aligned. Cause I mean, you know, there's, there's, you know, For every one of you, there's like millions of other people that start Front of House, see what's going on in the kitchen, and run the fuck the other way. Absolutely. They probably should. Yeah.

Yeah. It's, it's, um, I think it's definitely, uh, it came at the right point in my life, because I think that I'd just been In a couple of different environments already where I knew that didn't fit.

I tried an office job once I Couldn't sit down. It's just I was just yeah, I was yeah, it was not my thing. I tried retail. I did not enjoy that and then obviously I was at uni and I sort of decided that You know what? This is somewhere where I can get straight into working where I already feel comfortable and um You know, the plan was always to go traveling really after that It was sort of like be able to go and work anywhere with a great license

for that.

Yeah Yeah So yeah, I ended up doing an apprenticeship in Perth, um, a couple of decent places.

Can I ask you real quick, in that first place, in the pub,

yeah,

um, what sort of environment was that kitchen? Because like, I mean, you mentioned it was like, there was a lot of camaraderie and you really enjoyed it.

But I'm curious to know, I mean, you're pretty young, but I don't think you're so young that you escaped the whole, Old school chef brutality of yesteryear when you were coming up. Is that right? Like you have, you had your fair share of exposure to that type of culture?

That happened a little bit later on.

I think I had, wasn't one of those SI had a bit, I had a much softer opening. It was like, there was a bit, it was a bit rock and roll. That pub kitchen , everybody was, everybody was young. Okay. Um. And then the next couple of kitchens I worked in after that, everybody was quite nice, they were serious about their jobs, it got a bit more serious, but everybody was still quite young and still, like, the camaraderie was like, everyone's in this together and it wasn't too shouty or anything like that.

Um, no, it wasn't until I got to Europe that things started getting a little bit more heated and I started seeing, like, the other side of it. I was like, yeah. Get some exposure into that crazy

shit?

Uh, yeah, yeah, look, um, You know, uh, I realized very quickly it was the type of thing where like, I did, I did my time in it, and the moment I stepped out of it, I made the decision I didn't want to be.

That person amazing. I think that I definitely also maybe had some very stressful moments early days running kitchens for myself Where I probably was pretty intense. Okay, but um, yeah, I think I think I definitely noticed relatively quickly That that wasn't the way that I wanted to do things

Well, I mean guys like you are probably that exact sweet spot of the generation where the where that changing of the guard started to happen Quick like side note.

I'm curious to know. Um, I mean, I know the correct answer to this already, but I'm curious to hear your specific thoughts on it. Like, what do you think are some of the trade offs, if any, that are associated with, um, let's call it the evolution of kitchen culture. Like I wanted to sort of say like the softening of the toxicity in kitchens, but I think it's better than that.

And so, yeah, I mean, I guess from, from your perspective, what are some of the costs of kitchen culture evolving into what it is now? Are there any?

Um, yeah, I mean that definitely is. Um, I think that our apprenticeship rates are down. Um, I think the general interest, um, in, in doing the full process is, is close to being gone.

Um, it's much more sort of like you get dropped into it, you start working and you're off. Um, and then it's also a lot of, I mean, it just means it's more on the business itself.

Um, but

yeah. Less taken on by the individual to do a process. Sure. Um, sure, which means waiting through your time and you know Like so I did I was at the end and part of a four year apprenticeship.

I don't think that exists anymore Yeah, four years of that and then then slowly progressing after that. Um, there was no real jumping into anything There was no like roles that were going to be um ahead of my time Um, which is a good thing. I think that's a slow progress kind of thing in that. Uh, I think that nowadays, it's a lot quicker, there's more expectation.

Um, you know, everybody gets paid a lot better, which is great. Um, the hours are much more, like, regular. It's just, um, they're not quite as intense. Right, more reasonable. Um, I would say that back when I was doing it, and I think a lot of other chefs in my sort of generation probably agree that, like, you, You kind of knew that that's what was required of you.

So you were also happy to do it I just one of those weird things that you know took a long time for you to come around like oh, yeah It's a different way doing this, you know, like it did just take like from for me then I was like, okay Yeah, it should be able to do what I do over four days, right? Like it's a crazy amount of hours shouldn't shouldn't have to be doing all this But instead I was working six a lot of the time, right?

You

know, so So do you think we've lost something though, in how it's now, everything you sort of described there, like it's gone back to stuff that's more manageable, more reasonable, people aren't yelling at you anymore, and is there, obviously there's so much benefit, is there any, um, trade off? Yeah,

on the trade off, you know, like, there's definitely going to be a lot of skills going, missing.

Right. Um, like there's just not as much time for a lot of the processes that are Do you mean hard skill or soft skill, both? Uh, probably both, but I'd say that, um, I'd say that, like, the very specific sort of processes that kitchens do go through that have made a lot of a sort of, like, very I mean, somewhat of, like, we're not talking fine dining and we're not talking, like, in cafeteria.

It's, like, straight across the board, neighborhood restaurants, where there probably was a bit more time Got it. for these things, a little bit more. Yeah, nurturing. I'm not saying there's not as much love that goes into it. Right. But, they're just things that take time. More time. Sure. Um, and it's going to be some longer days and yeah, like, and, and now that that's kind of cut out, you know, there's say shortcuts, but you're sort of cutting out certain processes and certain things around restaurants that just can't exist in the same way.

Hmm.

That's a really interesting

take. I haven't, I didn't really considered that. Like, I think in my mind, when I think about the evolution of the kitchen culture, I always go into, maybe it's an optimism bias, but I go straight into all the positive aspects of it. You know this as a parent, right? If you want to nurture someone's growth and development, it doesn't come through friction and yelling, it comes through support and care and love, right?

And it's no different in the workplace, you know? And it's interesting, like you've just pointed out something that's really a lot more pragmatic than that, which is just the aspect of time, you know? And it's interesting, I, um, in another one of the episodes of this show that we did with Alexis Kalanins, he Talked about this really interestingly, where he was saying how at one point of, of his story he was talking about how just he, he got to one place in Europe and what he learned there was how to go fast.

Yeah.

And just work fast. And work fast. And that 20% faster on everything. Yeah. Stacks up and compounds over a 15 hour shift.

Yeah.

And I was saying to him like that, that sounds to me though, like you're saying, just go fast. And sometimes the trade off of going fast is less precision. The way he then put it was, no, no, no, it's not less, you have to start going slow till you build up the muscle memory, you build up the repetition so you can then go fast.

And that, I think that process he was describing is kind of what you're talking about. You need time to do that. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, so it's so interesting.

Yeah, so I think that like in that sort of process you um, um, you know, we find In our environment at VEX, we've got like a very small kitchen team and it's very, very particular, um, in, in a lot of ways, because you just need to kind of click and then you need to sort of, um, find a way for everybody to be able to kind of slot in where it is.

You've got somebody who's full power, then you probably need somebody else on the other side. Who's going to take their time and like work around that because you can't have everybody going at full pace either in small environments. Um, Yeah, I guess like alexis was talking about I I I had something similar in europe as well.

That's where I got taught, you know It's amazing what you can do in 15 minutes When you've got when you've got the ability to clear your mind And then just go and just go like when you start when you find yourself flying for a second You're like, oh, yes, that's that's that's how that's meant to work.

Okay

Um, that's a that's a great segue. So if we go back to the cv Where was that place that you learned that?

Um, I did a little bit of fine dining in Austria, and then I was at this place called the Clove Club in London. Um, which was, yeah, they were still young and upcoming. Um, and it was their early days, so it was a little bit wild back there too.

Um, I wasn't there as long as I wanted to be, but I definitely took a lot of small things out of it. Um, uh, yeah, that's one of those sort of environments where it was just like, you had nothing to work with. It was tiny. Got it. And then you had a lot of expectation on you. Um, I think I was, yeah, mostly trying to get in there at 8am and was sort of leaving around 2am a lot of the time.

They looked, there was some long days in there, but you just constantly found more and more energy. It was like, it was always somebody there that was like, pushing you on. There was always more to do. You just wanted to be a part of that so badly. Um, and I, I think I've said this before as well. Um, a lot of the things that I learned to do there, the processes, the sort of like hand work, the, the really important stuff that you really want to learn as a young chef cook.

Um, , I do them a hundred times better in my own environment Right. Than I was ever gonna be able to do them there. Got it. You know, and I think that's the kind of one of the massive things I take out of it as well is that, um, yeah. Like you learn the stuff there. Mm-Hmm. , maybe you were nailing it. I'm not sure.

Mm-Hmm. . But I feel like I'm doing a much better of a job of it. Sure. Outside of that environment.

Yeah. I mean, I feel like you picked it all up there, but now you, you can make it your own.

Yeah, you make it your own and it's also like you you set different comfort levels of like how it is that you want to Be operating.

Mm

hmm Where the intensities lie?

Mm

hmm. I think there needs to be a certain level of intensity to most kitchens I think that's what keeps it strong. Mm hmm, and what keeps it tight. Um, I don't think that intensity ever needs to be aggressive Got it. You know right distinction. It's a difference between that and Um, you know, I think that, um, we sort of like tread a, a fun little line because, um, you need to have the right people that are going to buy into that as well.

Um, and the moment someone doesn't, that's when you get back to this team dynamic where it's like, maybe you haven't had the time to get to this point to understand, like, this is actually quite important, this little bit

here. Is managing that an intuitive, a fairly intuitive process for you? Like, I'm curious, how do you.

How do you nail that balance between maintaining the intensity without it becoming negative or aggressive, as you put it? How do you keep it positive?

Um, I'm probably still working on figuring out exactly how that sits for me personally. I think I've made some, some, some errors in my time. Like not being able to like, um, express that properly.

I think I'm getting better at that. Um, being open and talking about it. I think that's the only way to go about it, is just to have this as a very black and white conversation about the expectations around it. Because, um, uh, the things that you'll notice, and this happens in just about anything in life, I think, is that when things aren't going your way, um, And you're not feeling like you're in a position to talk about it You need to ask yourself if you ever actually set out what it was that you were expecting That's such a great insight.

Like you're always just you're just like wait Ah, yeah, I can only be upset with myself right now because I didn't make that clear Like I didn't make this clear that this is what this is

Yeah, or I could have made it clearer, you know And and it comes back again to that theme of controlling what you can control.

That's right and if you set

that out early, then you've got the opportunity for The right people to come on board to understand what it is that you're doing to to buy into it and to maybe even sort of support it more because you know like um You you just sort of like float through and like again I haven't worked in a bigger kitchen in a while.

I've been in such small like a little environment So it's like really important that we get on well

Yeah,

which means that sometimes when the intensity is there you also need to sort of like swallow a lot of it And just go like that's not

now's not the time sure That's another interesting little balance to try to strike in your own mind as an operator.

I really love to Um delve a bit deeper into what you said just before that though You About when, you know, you experience a bit of friction or, or whatever, you know, there's a lot of self reflection that needs to occur in order to really nail it, and you go back to, okay, what could I have done differently to it, and that's quite progressive.

Yep.

Because now you know that the next time you need to explain it, you'll explain it the more optimised way, and to plant a little bit of a seed, you know, I, I know from, um, a lot of the studies I've done around this, in this sort of space, That everything has to come back to why. You know, and if you can articulate why something is important, and usually then, in a more indirect way, if that can then also connect to the purpose and all that sort of stuff, then you're gonna hit a home run right there.

Yeah.

But just thinking about that, you know, how can I explain something better or more comprehensively, you know, or maybe a bit more, um, with a bit more strategic complexity, so it's applicable to different ways that people learn, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. What comes to mind for you, you just say, I mean, cause it sounds like that, you sort of explain that as it's been a bit of an intuitive process.

And now you say it out loud, it's instantly going to become a lot more cognitive. Does anything immediately jump out at you that you would want to take back to VEX right now and start to change?

Yeah, weirdly, I think we're in a process of trying to figure out the way of, um, making that more of our driving force.

Um, let me not say, uh, like we know it's our driving force about like talking about that more publicly. Okay. About finding a way of expressing that. So that becomes a bit more of the overall identity, right? Love that. Yeah. You know, cause we're talking about, yeah. Your why your mission statements, um, and then that forming your identity that you're going to carry through and all the different aspects of what it is that you do.

So, you know, and as, as an example, I suppose when, um, you know, Olin and I'm business partner sat down early this year and we talked about a couple of the things that we just wanted to lay out, you know, and it came down to that sort of why question. So they really did. Um, and you know, for us, uh, it's, um, um, Independence is a large thing.

Sure. This is about like we have a staunch level of independence that, you know, hopefully ends up being what drives us further. You know, that's, that's what we really, really, really kind of want to take on is that people know that this is us. We're in it. We work this every day. This is our craft that we care about.

We care about doing it to our standards. What does independence mean to you? Well, the follow on for that is longevity. Like, that's what it is. You know, that's what we'd end up talking about. It's like if we were going to keep doing what we do, we need to do it for ourselves. And that's how, that's what we personally feel.

We're not, everybody's going to agree with that. And that's not what everybody's driving force is going to be. But for us, that's what was really important. It's like, we really love what we do. We know that if we want to keep doing this long term and we want to build good things that we just need to be doing it for ourselves.

Like it's, um, and that's not saying that we're not doing it because of our love for The industry and the people that we serve but it's just like no, this is that's our driving force and that's what keeps us um on track

There is nothing selfish in what you say what you just said. It's like the you know, you go back to the old classic cliches of like if you love what you do, you never work a day in your life, but if you Push that a bit further it's almost like a If you're not finding joy In what you're doing You know what happens right because you're not if you're following a pathway of passion, which you clearly are Everything's going to be hard.

There's going to be challenge. There's going to be difficulty There's going to be non stop curveballs. And if you're not finding joy in what you're doing those difficulties will inevitably overcome you Yeah, so you almost need to make sure you're ticking that box first and foremost. So I think it's it's rare to hear um You know someone do that so consciously but I think that's That's great.

Yeah, it's,

look, it's been really nice to set it back out again. Um, it feeds back into what our sort of holistic efforts are concerned. You know, like, Everything that we sort of do needs to have a reason for being there Um, and then everything that we do needs to feed back into what else is what else is already happening um with our operations, so You know, the food isn't considered without the wine and the wine isn't considered without the food, you know um, you know, there's there's certain little bits and pieces and the little Special offerings bits and it's all got to kind of feed back into the identity that we have um, and so I suppose the majority of that what we're talking about is it just gives you a nice framework, right?

Like it gives you something to work within. Um, Some people might call it limitations. I see limitations as a good thing. Okay in what in what way? um Like so we'll take in the kitchen. For example, like We've got a tiny little setup. Mm There's not You know that we could probably do more things But the rule is that we are diy like everything is done in house Like that's it end of story Like that's it it starts from with the bread and the butter and then it carries on If we don't make it in house, it doesn't get served.

Okay, like it's not our thing except for the cheeses like, um, you know, so When you have this little framework in place you instantly You can't just go and get something off the shelf. It doesn't really work like that Um, it's really important to us that that's the same DIY aesthetic as with just about everything else we do.

We take care of our own social media, we take care of, you know, like every little decision of the design aesthetic inside the restaurant was made by us, most of it sort of sourced by us. So

how does that feed back to limitation? Equals creativity. Yeah. Yeah.

So like all of a sudden you've got a framework.

Yeah, so like, you know what you can't do I've got it. So less options. Yeah

more concentrated effort. Yeah, see what

remains into what remains? What are we bringing in? What are we working with today? Yeah How do we represent that in a way that we haven't seen ourselves at times and then you know Like sometimes it just needs to be something that gets out there because it's showing respect.

Yeah Um, but yeah, so Um, that's, that's us. Um, but like, that's the thing, you have a framework, you know what you don't want to do because you've already agreed and made that clear that like, we're not doing anchovies on toast. It's not going to exist here. Right. We're not going to, we're not going to buy balls of burrata to drop onto a dish.

Like that's not, that's not our thing.

Yeah, I mean, but by having, you know, less, by having tighter parameters, it enables you to double down on the things that you do really find meaningful. Yeah, absolutely. Rather than just sort of follow that, oh, this is happening, we should do that.

Yeah.

And, and, and I think what you're describing as creativity could also be described as innovation.

And I know those two things get used interchangeably, but they're very separate concepts. And. You know, there's a lot of I'll have to link you some stuff later, but there's a there's some really good literature that exists around The importance of constraint in innovation. Yeah, and when I was reading this stuff I thought it was really funny because you're reading these like fucking dry as fuck academic articles But they're referencing a lot of food.

Yeah, right because they're effectively to paraphrase it and completely butcher it They they talk a lot about how um Some of the best dishes and some of the most ubiquitous dishes that we know today were invented under constraint. Yeah, not through creativity. It was, um, like, you know, nachos or like chocolate chip cookies, right?

Happened because someone dropped a bunch of chocolate chips in the cookie dough and now they're the best thing ever. Yeah, you know, like the sandwich was invented that way, the Caesar salad was invented that way, and yeah, there's something really cool in what you're saying

there. Yeah, I think that um, like that works for us as a business at this point in time.

Um, It's a little bit unapologetic. Mm

hmm

um But at the same time, you know, that's that's sort of what we were always going for I mean caught us all the vex for a reason. So, you know, it was always going to be like Without trying to be completely edgy, but it's just like this is going to be our way. Yeah, you know,

sure I love that.

So hurtling full steam into like the vex stuff. And so You Do you want to quickly give us the snapshot of like, it was, Perth to Europe to Melbourne or do you, do you want to just talk about Vex and if we, if we circle back to some of the CV stuff, it'll happen naturally?

Yeah, probably circle back if you want.

Um, look at the end of the day, we, uh, I, I, my time in London came short as, uh, fatherhood was sort of like racing at me. Oh, is that what happened? And then that's where Melbourne sort of came into the, came into the picture. What, what, what, what was, how did, how did that all piece together? Oh, it's just life happened.

Okay. Yeah. A whole lot of life happened in a short period of time and, um, we ended up here. Yeah. All right, that's how

you got here. Yeah, yeah, pretty much. Oh wow, okay. So then, all right, let's jump, let's jump to Vex. Yep. All right. How did it, let's start from the start. Um. How did

it come together? So, the first plan for Vex was written in like 2015, end of 2015, so, um, I think I'd, from the moment I started cooking professionally, I knew, I already knew inside myself that I wanted to have my own place.

Mm. Like, it was, it was. More of a driving force than anything else. Did you know, did you know in 2015 it was going to be called VEX? Yeah, it was called VEX in 2015. Oh no way, really? Wow. Yeah, that name came up, that came up with a friend of mine, Rory, who was one of our original business partners. Um, and we sort of like conceptualised something very different.

Oh really? Yeah. Very, very different. What was it? Oh, it was going to be way darker. We wanted, we wanted it to be like more of a bar that, that did some really out there food. Oh wow. Um, very chef run. Um, yeah, very small, like booze list, like much, much more darker and grimier and like in your face. Um, and still very controllable and small, but yeah.

What, what, what forced or brought on the pivot?

Um, I think a little bit of time spent. Um. Working in other environments to start off with. Um, like, you know, uh, 2015, some other bits and pieces came in the way, and it was time to put this on the back burner and just, like, focus in on working and finding stability in other ways.

Um, So got softened a little bit the concept but mainly actually through the space itself like so then 2019 rolls around and I've always been one to look out for restaurant sites It's always just been one of those things I'm seeing what's up on offer online and then you know go for a quick trek and drive by and I came across this one here that we're in now and I Uh, it just so happened that I knew that a friend of mine, Owen, who's my business partner now in it, um, lived around the corner.

And I said, I am gonna go check this place out, do you know anything about it? And he just happened to offhand say like, oh, that's the space that I've been thinking of. If everyone's gonna do something, that's the one I'd want. What was in the

space before you got it?

It was a cafe. Ah, that's right. Yeah, had a couple of different iterations of cafes.

Okay, got it, got it. Um, and had been sort of left to, to, you know. Fall into a bit of decay at this point in time So, okay, but look essentially we went and had a look at it together and the moment that owen came on board vex changed Right, that's that's when it that's when it changed and it's about bringing on people that you know You're going to want to work with long term and then finding a way for everybody's personalities to kind of Settle in together.

Yeah. Yeah So So yeah, the concept changed at that point in time. Firstly, the room was way too nice and bright and light for us to kind of put some grimy bar in. That would be, that would be a disservice to the space. Okay,

sure.

Um, we thought we were going to take over some kind of like old fish and chip shop.

Oh, got it. And get a license for that and we had a plan. Dreams of really, really silly things at one point in time, kebab shop or something, which apparently are really expensive to buy because they make a lot of money. So it's never going to be a thing. Um, but yeah, we ended up getting this lovely space after, um, about it.

Well, after, after being rejected first and then and then COVID setting in, why did they reject you? Uh, Old Greek businessman, didn't really want to have a couple of young guys without any trading history or proof take over his, uh, venue. All right. Got it. Yeah. So we didn't, we didn't stand a chance there initially.

Okay. Um, we came back and attacked it again after the pandemic had set in. Uh, okay. Different story now. Sort of. Yeah. So what,

so what, what, what year was this that you got the lease?

Uh, we actually got the lease in 2020.

Oh, right. Wow. Wow.

Okay. Yep. So, yeah, five years between the initial chats about what a restaurant can be to, to actually fitting one out and getting ready to do our thing in it.

Um, and, and we sort of fitted out during the sort of lockdown period, end of lockdown period. There's all just a lot of work by us.

What month in 2020 did you sign the lease? Uh, it was August. Oh, so we're well and truly into COVID at this point. I got it. And I mean, did you, that's really gutsy.

Yeah. Yeah. We had a lot of discussions with people around like this being a bad idea.

There's a lot of that going around, including internally, like were you guys like, I don't think we talked about it being a bad idea, but I think we all individually would have been like, Oh shit. Why are we doing this? This is really silly. But no, like, you know, it's, Sort of double down on this one. Like that's that was that was a plan This is this is an opportunity that we might not get we didn't think we're gonna get the space the first time

Mm hmm.

We didn't think it was gonna happen again. Anyway, and to be honest, it was an opportunity You know the guy who was selling the cafe was no longer selling the cafe. He just wanted out, right? He just was like you can have it you can just have it if you can if you can convince the landlord So to let you in then you just have it Everything that's here.

And I've just won out. Um, so that was one of those things where it's like, that's an opportunity. We might not get that again. Um, and then we thought, look, lockdown isn't going to happen for forever. So like, what are we, what are we doing here? We'd, we'd all help to pivot the businesses that we were working in at that point in time to do takeaway, to do all the bits and pieces.

We'd already done that for other people. So it was like, You know what you got a playbook. Yeah, and I'll see again and back to the independence thing. Yeah, I'm gonna do it I'm gonna do it for myself. Yeah, I love that. You know, like I ain't going through the stresses Like

just I'm gonna do that for me.

Yeah, and then you get to own it and I mean, I don't just mean financially But you like philosophically own it. Yeah and I

think especially, maybe not so much in my case, I was working for somebody else in a smaller sort of capacity, but, the other two were working in larger venues, um, with more processes in place, where it was just like, we have an idea, we have the means to do it, but, There's so many layers of people that needs to go through before this can be checked all the red things So you're like you can't actually do the things that you believe in at that point in time And I feel like in those high stress moments when you really believe in something that you should be doing something is when you should be Doing it.

So yeah

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's so that's so interesting So did you when you got that lease was there like some type of rent free period or? Was it? Not really. Yeah.

We, um. Did you just straight in to sign it? Straight in. We negotiated a month off of every, of the first four months. So essentially a month of rent free spread over four months, which is all that we got given.

Okay. Where was the capital coming from? Um, some savings,

uh, that's what got us to the opening point. Got it. So you each just kicked in what you had. It wasn't like you were, you know, capitalized from an investor or a bank. Again,

this is about independence. This is like we said, we said, this is like, we weren't looking for anything.

Banks weren't going to loan to us anyway. Right. Yeah. Um, and then I don't think that we would have found anybody who really was going to back it hugely. Right. Cause of the climate.

Yeah. Yeah. It's just silly. Interesting situation to find yourself in. Yeah. Man, I mean, I have so many questions, but I guess I'm going to go ahead and, and assume then that it was a shoestring budget in that case.

Yeah, yeah, totally. Totally a

shoestring budget. We, so I think what we always talked about was like, we don't need everything from the start. Like this is going to be like a, like a slow build when we can afford something, we'll get it. You know, um, I think we were nine months in before we got our ice machine.

I'd been driving to the service station sometimes twice a day to go get bags of ice. Cause we only had one tiny freezer that fit a bag at a time. And it really, so it was like, you just go get multiple bags. Yeah, so small bits and pieces, like we had, um, we had a, uh, a trades person on with us who was sort of like helping us with the build, uh, carpenter and he built us like some shelving and stuff that was just out of the scraps of bits and pieces of other things that we'd been doing.

And, you know, so like we, we built on that, those, all those things are gone now, but you know, I'm talking to you three years later, so three and a half years later, but you know, that was always a thing. It was going to be sustainable growth. We just need to have. A dining room that feels comfortable and we need to have the ability to cook and to serve white and then that's it That's all we needed.

That was it in black and white start off with

and then everything's just been so incremental on top of that which is also an Incredibly smart way to build a business the the downside to that strategy is that the the roadmap is way longer Yeah But at least it's surer. And given the fact that you've talked so much about independence and longevity, it's the perfect way to, to go about it.

It's a really good

approach. We were, um, we, we opened up out of lockdown and obviously we still had restrictions in place, so no matter how much PR and how many flashy things we might've been able to have had, if we had the, the, um, investment for it, it was only going to be getting like, you 20 people into that dining room anyway, so like, you know, it was like we actually don't need it What we need to do is we need to do our jobs.

Well, um, we need to focus in on Creating something that we we believe in And then we need to just get those people that are in and around our area to get to know us Um, and that's been the process like, you know, um, I think you came in To vex and we'd only just had signage For like a month or two tops.

Yeah. Yeah, we hadn't we were three years in we didn't have any signs out in the street Wow, nobody knew where we were. I thought

it was on the other side of the road the whole time

until I got there Yeah, so like we can we just and we just we didn't prioritize these things because we just said like now I've got Things that we were investing in were like, you know, get the ice machine in the back.

You know, we need, we need some new things inside the restaurant. We don't care about the outside. Um, we want to take care of people's experiences and make it nicer. Um, and, and then finally we're like, yeah, people should know where we are. Yeah.

That's not a bad box to tick. Yeah.

I'm sure we'll get to the whole promotion sort of part after, you know, yeah, we'll get there one day.

Well, you know, I think what's really cool is like, there's, there's different, philosophies that entrepreneurs usually have. There is the, you know, what you've done, which is the really gritty way. And then there's also the build it and they will come way. And, you know, you tend to see a lot more failure in the latter category.

So I think it's really sensible how you've gone about it. Can we, can we go to mission? Yep. So I feel like, um, you know, there's so much in what you're saying that isn't necessarily in what you're Some of the stuff that you wrote down, you know when I when you first started to think about it, um It'd be really good to try to connect some of these dots.

Yeah, sure. Um this passage that you wrote Can I read it to you?

You can read it.

Are you happy with that? Yeah I'm asking you to be a little bit vulnerable here gonna get gonna get real in the face in a second I just think it's amazing man I think like people need to hear it because it's like when you're thinking about these things heritage is so important, you know it is So much nostalgia involved and maybe i'll limit this more to the food ethos side of business You know nostalgia heritage all these things are so important, you know And I think you just have captured it in such an incredible way.

So All right i'm gonna read this out and the reason why I thought it'd be good for me to read it to you is um, Like I recently joined a poetry group. Yeah, there you go Trying to you know build on my creativity and one of the cool things that they do in the group is when you bring a piece You You read it out and then everyone kind of workshops it with you, but someone then reads it back to you.

Yeah, so when you hear it being read to you, it's kind of you know Meant to give you a slightly different kind of perspective as it were so I remember you sent this to me and my first Like a first couple sentences in I was like what the fuck is flow going on about here So was he just hammered and he put this thing together and it just likely yeah It comes together really well, so you titled it Worthless rocks.

Okay, and it goes like this. I carry a small rock around in my pocket. It lives there as a token, a reminder of many little things that I feel I need to stay on top of. It guides me in times where stress has become too much, or moments where I might need to slow down. Um, sorry, moments where I might need to slow things down.

Almondine garnet, did I say that correctly? Yeah, you got it. Isn't a valuable stone. It's not particularly uncommon either. I was taught to identify them, chip them out with a hammer and chisel, and clean them up by my opah. Did I say that correctly? Cool. When I was younger, my parents would take us back home to Austria for the summer.

And sorry, opah is a grandfather? Yeah, that's right. Cool. When I was younger, my parents would take us back home to Austria for the summer. In those warm months in southern Syria, I was given many precious gifts that I only truly considered as such in my mid thirties. The days were long and slow. I never felt rushed to do anything.

In fact, the lasting phrase from my Opa that would be used in any situation, you're gonna have to say this phrase right now. Alles mit der guten Zeit. Okay, everything in its good time. Whether he was tutoring me in math, teaching me to play the trumpet, watching over me as I whittled and carved decorative patterns into our walking sticks on hikes, or simply riding our bikes through the fields of corn and pumpkins that lay nearby, everything in its good time.

When I think back to those times, I put together a list of things I enjoy and appreciate today. The direct line to those early learnings is obvious. I was taught to forage in the forests for mushrooms and wild garlic. I can still smell the wood and charcoal from the barbecue we'd have afterwards. We would make sausages in the garage under the house, and go collect the frames from the beehives so we could spin the honey out.

All of the connection to food that I aspire to show comes from this place. Appreciating produce, understanding the seasons, doing everything from scratch. There is no chef y manifesto, however. This is a daily ritual. Every day was full of small moments of joy to me, to my grandparents, just a part of their routine.

Within the routine was a never ending list of jobs that required a touch of the hand. Learning these touches or gestures was the foundation of my enjoyment. It made so much sense to me, spending your days working with your hands, feeling your way through a craft. I turned 36 recently. It's not just the passing of time that serves me as a reminder of these lessons though.

Of course I worked on my birthday. I unfortunately found myself in a helpless situation, alone in a kitchen that I own and operate, stressed, stretched and without joy. The night ended in the emergency department being stitched up from an oyster knife slip. The position I found myself in wasn't a simple staffing issue.

It runs deeper than that. So as I sat in the chair waiting for a doctor to come and tidy up my slashed hand I could feel the presence of this worthless little rock in my pocket Reminding me that you can achieve anything in its good time Like wow that is So incredibly written man. I just I love it.

It's so good. How did you feel when that came out?

Um, I had been writing other things But obviously this happened And that was sort of a moment to sort of, uh, look back really quickly on a couple of different things that were sort of important to me. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Um, yeah, there's a like level of vulnerability in, you know, obviously admitting, you know, like it's not okay at times.

Sure. Like it's just the main part, you know, like, and, you know, I, um, I'm a, a big. Big sort of self blamer. Okay. I'm very, very big to sort of go like, well, it's my fault I'm in this position. Okay. Right. Which is totally fine.

Mm-Hmm. ,

um, self-critical. Self-Critical. Yeah. Like hugely self-Critical. Mm-Hmm. , which is, we're part of like, the ref, like why the reflective period of this is different than that usually.

Because usually you go, well, yeah, you fucked up. Like it's, it's just you're, you're a bit of a moron. Like, you know, that's, this is on you, right? Mm-Hmm. , um, still keeping that sort of sentiment of like, yeah, this is on you, but. Right. Why? Like, why is it? What is it? What, what are you missing? Like where, where's, where's that sort of line, you know, between the joy and the, and the process of your everyday, like, where's that, where's that been broken?

Yeah, sure. Um, and, um, yeah, so like, obviously this is a reflection on, on the things that did bring me joy. Then also there's the questions of, you know, like, why am I alone in this situation? You're like, like, why, why are we in this position? You know, what is, what's missing? Right. Yeah. Man,

it's so, what you encapsulate in that writing is pretty damn phenomenal and it's funny because my childhood couldn't be further away from what you described there.

I've never experienced that stuff. But somehow reading it all I still felt so seen and I think that's how you know something really hits the soul. You know, it doesn't have to be something I've experienced before, but I can still somehow connect with it and feel it. So I want to put you on the spot a little bit and challenge you a little bit practically because that, when I read that, the first thing I did was I just went back to the dining experiences that I've had.

There's only two of them, but the two experiences that I've had at Vex, right? And when I look back at it retrospectively, I just connect all those dots and go, wow, yeah, that's what was going on that night, but on the night, I would never have known that, you know, it was only because you told me that I can now connect the dots.

How do you. And do you think it's important to try to get that message clearer at the start rather than the end, if at all?

I think it sort of depends. This one is very sort of obviously tied to me. Yes. Like, so, like, we were talking about the identity of a restaurant and the identity of food. Like myself, which, you know, I mean, we can have, we can have ongoing conversations about how you are not your identity either.

Like we can go into like a lot of depth and detail into that, but obviously it means a lot because it's what you project. Um, so what the restaurant projects is obviously not exactly what I project personally all the time. You know, it's a combination of people and, um, it's an entity that sort of is going to project its own sort of identity over time.

Can I, can I just. Touch on that though, because you're talking about your identity from the food side of things. I mean, I'm sure if we sat down with Owen and had a similar conversation, he's going to come up with something equally compelling from a front house perspective or a service perspective. But what you guys have effectively done here is you've created this business, you've created this brand.

That is a place for these different identities to co exist. Yeah. Because before Owen came along, it was like, let's get a dirty fish, fish and chip shop and, and make this a real antagonistic, in your face type of thing. And then suddenly it's like, oh no, hang on. I don't, I mean, it sounds like it was partly the space, but I'm sure it was probably more weighted to Owen's input as well.

That it was like, hey, now let's bring another person into this. So of course the overall identity is going to shift. But each of those individual identities also needs to be articulated to understand how they all come together in a gestalt kind of outcome where it's greater than the sum of its parts.

So I think like what you're talking about with all this stuff is, is probably, um, localized to specifically the food program, which is how I interpreted it. But even within that, like how do you get that story clearer in the, in the more immediate dining experience?

Yeah, I think that then ideally you'd have more time to, to flourish out the bits and pieces and the presentation and the story and how you do.

Um, I think that There's definitely ways and there's definitely are some dining experiences that do that quite well. Um, I think um a part of us though is about being that local neighborhood place and um, We we pick and choose our moments to have the conversations I think sure, you know when you've got someone who's engaged and wants to know

um,

and then it's times where we're just a place that serves food and wine, you know, so like Yeah, like it kind of like you kind of have to sort of alternate it it depends on the customer at the time as far as like pushing the stories out and Into the world through media That's something that we we do, you know, very very sort of in a very restrained manner, you know Like yeah, that's that's definitely sort of that more style.

Why are they why not just

scream it from

the rooftops? Um, probably because that would sort of go against what we were trying to do initially which is a slow build. Got it Yeah, got it. Yeah, so like that's kind of like, uh, I think that we always thought that it might conflict with us a little bit Um, I think that we're probably looking at you know Working towards it a little bit more in the future.

Sure, but for the most part it was just about Um us existing in our space keeping that comfortable for everybody involved and then working out exactly where this identity actually is taking us because We we probably hadn't exactly set it out as such, you know, like that was the point in time, I think, you know in the last year or so where you realize you're like I feel like i'm just cooking right But I know that there's more to this.

Yeah, you know, um, And that investigation is only just sort of like coming in as we've turned three years

old, you

know

And I mean it and from that lens You know It almost seems like the right time where things have formed enough to be able to start thinking about how are we portraying? ourselves in the market effectively talking about these stories and I've got to be I mean i'm really conscious of the fact that we're just having a very Strategic conversation about your business Without any, without your partner present and on the fly in a fricking podcast.

But, you know, even flying in the face of that, I mean, it just sounds like this is a really compelling lever for you to pull right now, because, you know, What, what it speaks to mechanically, right? Like take some of the more, how does it make me feel stuff out of it? And really what we're talking about from a business strategy perspective is differentiation.

Yeah,

which is a critical component of strategy, right? Because if You You know, hospitality is a fairly homogenized market, you know, like we can look at it and, you know, people that know about hospitality, like experts, can sort of look at it and go, well, that restaurant there and that restaurant there are not the same at all.

What are you freaking talking about? They're completely different experiences. But say someone like, you know, one of my old mates from high school, who's less kind of educated in a culinary sense, would just look at those two restaurants and be like, yeah, it's just a restaurant. So let's just assume that the market's fairly homogenized, right?

Like that differentiation becomes critical, right? Like in a, in a saturated market, you need to find a way to stand out in the crowd. Yeah. You know, and, and I think when you talk about, you know, the journey that you've de, that you've described, no disrespect meant, but there's, you guys aren't the first ones to do what you've done in the way that you've done it, right?

Yeah. Like, let's get together, let's kind of do it incrementally and safe and, and you know, surely. What is it? Slowly but surely. Like it's all, it's a, what you've described as a great example of that play, but it's still not necessarily like super unique. So I guess like those, maybe that is some of the scaffolding that goes around some of the stories, right?

Because that idea around like being able to experience the Austrian countryside, like that's distinctive. Yeah. Like I don't think there's anywhere in Australia I can get that experience apart from at your place.

Yeah. Yeah, look, I think that, um, uh, we, we weren't ever looking to, to like start pushing out, you know, USPs as our main sort of thing.

We are so, so stoked to know that we, um, we've been, we've created an opportunity for ourselves to, to present ourselves and to grow within it. And then what happens after that is very much just finding the comfort level amongst, amongst Our contemporaries I guess as well. Um, we we love going to venues. We don't get to go out as much as we do so sometimes it's um Um, it's a good thing for us, you know, like Because every time that we need to do something every time that there's something where we feel like we need to work on A concept, you know, whether we're pushing a thursday night thing over winter or a saturday lunch thing or whatever it is um It's always just looking inwards, you know, like that's, that's the thing that we've sort of taken on out of all of this.

Um, it takes on your personal influences. Um, and that's what comes out of it. Like we've done Austrian themed nights. We will continue to do Germanic. We've been joking about calling ourselves vaguely Germanic dining, so we can separate from modern Australian. Um, you know, like that's, That's, you know, that's become our latest joke, and like, we do sort of find a way that we come back around to that sort of stuff, just because we always do just look in, you know?

It's kind of, you're actually happy to put the blinders on for a second, um. We're not big on co labs, we're not big on like inviting other people into the space because it's like, well, we feel like we've got what we need here. Yeah.

What's that? It's that independence thing, right? It's investigate it further.

Yeah. That's so cool. And I just think what I love about this is like, you, you know, you, you explain it so well in that write up, right? About, you know, everything in its own time and you're so uncompromisingly focused on that, which is amazing because you're doing it right, you know? And I love that like, um.

You When you talk about the journey, you are able to talk about it, you know, so accurately and so well because you've done it So incrementally which is which is so awesome, man I think like really where my mind goes is that like You know, it's a bit of that to a person with a hammer. Every problem is a nail, right?

So yeah I always go to strategy and I just think like that idea about like everything in its own time doing things incrementally Doing things on our own terms is Without a doubt the best foundation you can set for strategic planning, you know, and in that aspect of just being like cool Let's actually find the time to take the time out and stop and just poise and go hey Where are we right now?

And what is the next? thing that we should do? What is the next thing that's going to come along in its own time, which is just, I love that.

Yeah. Um, it's again, it gives you framework as well. Like we were talking earlier about the limitation set, you know, like that's, that's, it, it keeps you in this sort of like playing field for a second.

That doesn't mean we don't dream of bigger things. That doesn't mean we don't have like grander ideas around what's going to come. Um, so. That's a lot of stuff that we're sort of going to be working on in the very near future is is taking that time and like Being really proactive on the stuff that is built and is a little bit more tangible Yeah, like for people to have with them that it's about us Yeah, then just the dining experience like it's about kind of working to that next level But it's taken a while to get there sure and we're cool with that.

Yeah,

um, don't get me wrong It gets I could I could do with a couple more hours sleep here and there but But appreciating every part of this is very much the fact that like, we started off with that staunchly independent notion, and um, as long as, whenever this kind of has run its course, I can go back and say that I gave it absolutely everything in that time, then I'm going to be happy about it, because that's, that's kind of the easiest way to kind of negate a lot of the negativity and the things that might not be running well at that point in time.

It's like, yeah, but. We are giving it all and now we're talking about the things you can't control again.

Yeah, exactly. I just love that the sense of self assurance that you're exuding from this conversation is pretty inspiring, man. And you know, I got to say, I feel like I've been giving you some really tough questions, so let me pivot to some easy ones, potentially easy ones.

I just, last thing I want to say on that is that like, I love the fact that, you know, these stories are now coming up amazingly, like they're coming up in their own time, you know, and I'm sure that they're going to come out in their own time, but I'm still going to be annoying the crap out of you because I want to come to the, I'm going to sit at the bar and everything you serve me, like, what's the story?

Yeah. Just tell me. Happy about that too. Yeah. We're just giving you a heads up on that. Um, Hey, tell me, like, let's go a little bit broader here. Um, Yeah. So I guess like one of the things I'd love to know because you're talking again just in that last bit about um, Like i'm gonna give you two more questions.

Okay, is that all right? Yeah, let's go all right, so one is that like you told me a little bit about you know, just Becoming an owner, you know and that move away from like doing this stuff for other people and now we're doing it for ourselves And you know, it's such a great journey. It's such a great story.

I guess I wanted to ask you like Can you tell me something? You didn't know That you now know After becoming a restaurant owner

Yeah, um a bunch of things I give you like the one that sort of um, That sort of like really kind of rings true. I think for very small operations in particular or ones that are built up on um individuals identities Is that like, you know coming up through kitchens?

You sort of want to make yourself indispensable to that team. Like it's just really important that you like You One of the sort of characters that can be dependent on, you know, you're really looking for that security. Um, and for, for the, like, to sort of slowly build respect amongst, you know, a team as well, so that you kind of feel whole and that's, it's meaningful for you.

When you become an owner, it's got to be the opposite. You've almost got to try and find a way to make yourself indispensable, you know, like, because like at the end of the day, you just really, really dug deep in it. Um, and, and like, that's again, part of our slow process on this one. Yeah. But, um, and that's something I, I appreciate that, um, you know, we are who we are because oh, and I have been there pretty much every single service since the day we open.

Right. Um, which we love. Um, and we love having the communi like the, the commun community around us and the relationships that are built up. Mm. But at some point in time as well, you gotta go. Well, from a business standpoint, like as an owner, you know that it would be better. If you didn't actually have to be there 100 percent of the time absolutely, you know, and that like every decision that kind of needs to be with you there, you know, like it's I've had a couple of days here and there and i'm starting to get better at trusting Those around me to kind of just do their jobs well because they do yeah, because everybody does yeah, exactly And

even they might not do it Exactly like you.

Yeah, but that could actually be they could end up doing it better than you

Yeah

If you actually allow them, you know And and you take a little bit of the compromise more immediately knowing that hey it might not be as good as what I could Do myself right now, but by allowing it to be different. It's gonna be better later

Yeah, if you I'm sure if you talk to any like tech and trip and entrepreneurs that probably say the same thing It's absolutely I don't I don't want to be the best coder on my team.

Like that's my might be where you started off But if you're the one that owns a company, like you shouldn't be in there doing that all day long Yeah, so like so like you're gonna find people that are better than you at it and that's a good thing Yeah, yeah, that's

really great man. That's so well put because there's you know, you're touching on There's this really interesting notion around like the founder of a business You know, it doesn't really get a lot of spotlight like especially in like the business circles and stuff like that like you've always analyzed like C suites and CEOs and CEOs, all this sort of stuff.

And the founder never really gets a proper look in like you can't go to business school and study founder management. And, and what's interesting about founders is there's this. One thing, right, so they always say when it comes to being an owner that you should be clear on the things you can delegate and always delegate them, and you should be clear on the things you can't and, and don't prematurely delegate them but hurry the fuck up and figure out how to.

Yeah. And there's, but there's one thing as a founder that you can't delegate ever, and that's vision and inspiration, but the faster you can delegate, you know, some of the other things and all of the other things, the more you can double down on that stuff. And that's. That's primarily the responsibility that a founder is obligated to grow and nurture.

And I think, again, the way you put it there was so good. I feel like something that's coming up out of this chat, like if I had to sort of start to think about VEX as a persona, it's the word I'd use to describe it, the term I'd use to describe it is it's such an old soul. Yeah. Like you guys have given your business.

Such a valuable gift and what that gift is is the gift of patience You know, like we all get tricked into not valuing that slow and steady kind of pace You know, we get tricked into like we've got to grow we've got to get to this next stage We've got to get to this next day We've got a scale, you know but the truth is like when you give your your business the gift of patience like man, there's there's Little else that that can be as valuable as that and and It's amazing to see how you guys have have done that man It's really really profound and again in keeping with the purpose of this whole podcast It's it's the stuff that people need to hear right now.

Yeah. Thanks. It's like I do think that it's one of those things that

um Has fallen by the wayside a little bit and Well, it's been probably been happening for quite some time. Um, the bigger the newer the flashier Um, and like there's always going to be place for them Um, you know like the smaller Like family run places are becoming less, the younger sort of like owners just taking a stab in the dark, like that's becoming less.

Um, you know, we, we very much see like VEX right now. Like we always knew the first five years is basically like us going to school. Like this is our version of going to business school. Like this is us just learning how to operate these things. But like our, our major excitement. Yeah. Lies in the fact that we know that we have aspirations that are bigger than this.

And there's going to be more, but the process of this, we won't ever feel this one again, like in the same way it won't, the next one won't be the same. No, it's going to be another unique thing. Yeah. Yeah. But like the, I think especially just in the way that we kind of grew this one. Like it's it's it's it's unique in that way.

I think that we wouldn't change too much We've definitely learned some lessons where we think that you know As you do yeah where we all need to um, and we're stubborn too, which is fantastic. Yeah It's that

unapologetic thing but it comes back to the patience and everything in its in its right time, that's right Yeah, hey, let me hit you with one more right like I I think this is another thing that would be really useful for people to hear because being a chef is You Consuming being a business owner is consuming both at the same time is just nuts Also being a parent like how do you manage the the work life balance thing?

Like how do you stay? Present for your you know partner and kids and stuff like that

Probably not as well as I'd like to yet Yeah, we're still in that period of period of figuring figuring that out with the kids. It's getting better and better It's one of those things where like that is something I like I hold on to more and more Uh, we, we used to do, we closed Sundays last year, so like now it's like it's a full proper day on a Sunday that I can have with them, which, which has changed, changed everything.

Um, that's another one of those moments where you. Like learn to slow down it's the exact same thing again Like that's your little slow down period like they're running at 100 miles an hour But the actual time that you get to have and the presence that you need to kind of have with them That needs to be slow.

Yes, I can and I um, yeah, it's it's It's a different feeling because I you get asked this as a chef a lot too. It's like you cook all week at work Like do you even like cooking at home? It's like yeah, I love cooking for my kids. It's great I mean, it's the most boring stuff on earth, but That's a different feeling, you know, like, and like, that's, that's, that's great.

Like, um, you know, um, whether it's for friends as well, like it's just, it's, it's one of those things and you got to find ways to do what you do. Um, that's easy for me. I know that people enjoy not cooking also, so that's fine. I can take that. And that's me giving, giving advice. Like love in my own way, I guess um, and I can appreciate that.

Um, Uh, yeah, so like the work life balance thing is is I just like the business is a is a long term plan And it's a slow build onto it. Yeah Um, but yeah finding the small moments um Trying to stay on top of like the little bits and pieces whether that's just a little bit of meditation when you can Nice making sure you're doing a little bit of the physical

exercises when you can nice um, I love the when when you can bit because That's another thing we trick ourselves into is that I've got to I've got to meditate I've got to get up at 4 a.

m. And I've got to meditate for 45 minutes And it's like if you don't do it every day, it's like I'm doing it wrong and it's like nah Yeah, do it when you can yeah, that's so much better than not doing it at all because you're not making some arbitrary routine you know, yeah, that's right and Yeah, like stressing

yourself out with with stuff that you realistically like I've I've been one of my favorite pieces of advice.

I've heard It's just like um Like yourself to just be like have have your slobbish moments Like just let yourself have that every now and then like I know that Wednesday mornings is generally my sleep in morning Like it's the one day of the week where it's just like no you need that one Like you just you actually just need it.

Yeah, okay completely useless for the rest of the week. Otherwise I do that. That's fine. And then the rest of the week is full power So it's kind of like you're just gonna find moments in between it Get some sunlight every day. If you can spend some time outside, I guess it's you know, that's my work life balance at the moment It's like literally finding the small moments in between at all, but that's

that's okay That's man and yet another gem that I think you know other people running businesses and restaurants right now can equally employ It's a great benefit.

You know, one of the things that I think is awesome is that the way that you talked about controlling what you can control, you know, not getting lost in the things that you can't control because that's going to block the entrance for more creativity. And I just, I just love that as a model. Um, like, I feel like you need to write that down in a flow chart or something.

Um, I just love everything you've talked about in terms of going slow. I mean, you talked about it. I mean, from a parenting standpoint, That really, you know, kind of gave me the shivers a bit because I don't do that enough, you know, and I just think I'll come home after, you know, 15 meetings or whatever and just like instantly, I have to remember when I go home, I'm not the manager of our house, you know?

And half the time, man, the kids just, you know, you're right, they're going a million miles an hour, but you need to be slow and build that connection. And I just, I love that concept of just going slow with everything, right? Yeah. Like with your self care, with your business. Giving yourself that sense of, that gift of patience is just so profound and it's such a, it's the only thing, it's, it's, it's the sort of thing that you can only learn from your grandparents.

Yeah,

yeah, I think, I think you kind of like extrapolate it on the business side especially, like, you get into panic moments, um, it's, it's a cycle, right, like it just kind of keeps going and going and going, it's like there's no stop to it because, yeah, negative thoughts, they're, they're, they are a cycle, it's a loop.

Yes, um. And if you let that loop keep playing then you start making poorer decisions Like that's kind of the majority of it. Like it's whenever you get into the flustered sort of yeah Like yeah, it's a cycle you can't get out of and then you make a bad decision and that snowballs Like and then you just you just you just Fixing fixing mistakes, right?

Like so yeah, it's it's better to like definitely step out of it I give a huge amount of credit to Owen my business partner who's probably like the the the The slowest of the slow for us, which is like in in the best way Yeah, that's why I like it's like you can step out of it. I'm very analytical It's like yeah, no, but just calm down for a second.

Love that.

I love that. I mean, I mean you are a really deep thinking Philosophical kind of guy and I knew It would come out in this conversation. I didn't think it would come out to the depth and the degree it has. So thank you. I thank you. Um, I tried to have a crack at like recapping some of the themes.

I don't, I don't reckon I got anywhere near all of them, so I can't wait to listen back to this and try and like pull some out and then use it, you know, and, and, and kind of give it to some of the people that are around me and my network. And so, yeah, I just want to say, I'm really grateful, man, for you coming in and being so open and being so vulnerable.

Cool. Good luck. Everyone in the industry needs more stories like this right now. So I think you've really given something back

Thanks for giving us a platform, man.

Anytime, man. All right, we'll have to do this again soon easy. You're a legend brother Thank you so much

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