Alex

Quick heads up, but there's a mention of self-harm in this episode that might affect where and

when you listen.

Grant

You always go through your life thinking you've not got anything to think or you know, I've not

got anything me but when you really have everything taken off here that's when you realize you

probably had everything. I had a girlfriend or you had a place for me Oh, no had a baby on the

way. I had a job. I had everything really but at the time, you could probably not tell me that

because I thought knotting

Alex

Welcome to stories of men beneath the surface. I'm Alex Melia. Join me as we discover what it

means to be a man in the modern era.

And this week's episode, a stark reminder that your whole life can change in an instant. A few

years ago, a friend of mine from school Grant was hanging out with some mates one weekend

when he got a phone call. A friend asked to be picked up. Grant knew this letter was a dodgy

character. But he agreed to go and get him

Grant

we'll get to some guys and I see a car coming in my rearview mirror must have been doing

about 100 miles an hour. So I was just calm and collected it pulled up right behind me. I could

see it was a police car. Danny's going I've got something on there that I probably shouldn't have.

What should I do? And I said well talk to you I thought just carry on driving towards would turn

right at the light. The police lights come on. Because I'm trying to pull over into a junction about

five other police cars just come out of nowhere and you kind of surround the car if anyone would

have saw me then I would have been waited a ghost. So the police have come out and straight

around the car pulling the car doors open and dragging his outside stuff and going what's going

on. That is up against the wall and he stayed searching out of the car. As soon as they found

cocaine theoretically dissolve you under arrest for possession of Class A drugs that he put us in

handcuffs. I was in the back of the phone. Danny might have been in a car Brad who picked up

was in another car. And they all took us separately. And I remember just being in the fun on the

way there and I was just going up my mind was just going a million miles and I were thinking

what what's the outcome here so we get to the police station the book was in and we was in

what felt back in Edge must have been fingers 22 hours. And I remember just getting home and

the flat was upside down and the police. It just turned all my beds upside down flip the mattress

is literally like a bomb. It hit the floor. I was completely shattered, which is one word of putting it

distraught might have been another didn't know what what was going to come with it didn't get

charged until February 2015. Almost a year after it happened. possession with intent to supply. I

spoke to Danny, not long after and Danny said Listen, don't worry about it. I'll go enough, sir. He

was in my possession. It was mine. It's not going to concern you. My life dramatically changed

in that next six months. So rather than being in the pubs and going out on a Friday night, no

matter a girl, shower is no my wife. And I wasn't going out. I was only with her for a couple

months or something. She ended up getting pregnant. My life was on hold for well into a year.

Danny, you wouldn't answer the phone. So I just drove around to his house and we got in the

car and we're just driving around in a car and I said what's happening? Why have you changed

a tune? Because what I've got to walk after myself as well, it's every man for himself. And that's

what the court saying and you know, your your wife doesn't affect mine. And we've just got to go

down this go down this route. was angry initially, there was a bit of angles, a bit of confrontation,

but I just kind of knew or weren't changing his mind. And it was like well over and now with this

conversation. We're just driving around and we're just going back in circles.

So we went to court, my dad came on Mon Chava the judge said you've got 32 months in

prison, not suspended meaning I have to return down though now. And I just stirred a massive

wealth behind me and I walked behind and Charlotte was crying. She was like about five

months pregnant and so she was showing and then we got sucked down into the cells

underneath. And as you're walking down the only way I can describe it so I go into a zoo with

animals that hadn't been fed. Always willing to take fighting up against the against the windows

what was happening. I wouldn't say I'm a soft person but I remember being a bit skirt thinking

while we were all huge people and even ran up against a kid and he banged me into this cell at

the bottom Liverpool Crown Court, I took my suit off, and I remember just putting the joggers on

and then we've sat in Liverpool for ages and you get into the waggon and we got took to Walton

prison, which I didn't know much about but apparently is notorious for kangaroo and Liverpool

gangland altercations over time, we've got signed in the strip, you are naked. And then they just

choke you in a cell with anyone. And Danny was on the bus with me. And even though we

haven't spall sometimes, it's just the comfort of knowing someone rather than being put in a cell

with somebody because it's all bunk beds. It's not your of your own place or anything. stunk of

pee in the cell. It was dirt it and as I said, or can we go together because, you know, don't want

to get stuck in with someone who smokes. So we bumped together. And in the week, waking up

in the morning, and working out where I was in the environment and writing on the walls and just

stunk in that. I'm thinking, God, it wasn't a dream.

Alex

I'm obsessed with the film Shawshank Redemption. And a couple of things that you mentioned

to me, I've seen the film so many times. And when they're all lining up, and the guy one of the

guys says, When do we eat and he's like, you eat when we tell you to eat and then he any

batters him, I think it's officer Hadley or whatever his name is. And then you go through to the bit

where they're trying to bet on who's going to cry first. And it ends up being the the overweight

guy. And you getting stripped and all of that. And it really made me It reminded me of all of that,

did that come into your head? Both kinds of images, you know, Green Mile Shawshank

Redemption, those kinds of things.

Grant

It did, but the prison system in Britain is much different to that. It's not like you don't behind a

cage or you have a door do get stripped off but you're on your own just with the officers. So

when they strip you and ask you to squat you are surrounded by probably three officers who are

just checking on you're not trying to carry anything into in with you like phones or whatever

people might try and smuggle in. It does come into your mind. Yeah, I think going in is about

people break down in though you see people self harming. I remember one night as soon as I

walked on the windier these horrendous scars on his arms. And I mean, I remember just being

shell shocked to what I was seeing just absorbing all these different people and just so different

to the life normal people with

Alex

one thing I'll say right now is so you and I have known each other since 1998. So 24 years,

we're in the same school together the world famous Husker Fletcher High School, which is no

more in other than Greater Manchester. And I almost call school like a partial institutionalisation

for you to go institutionalised, then freedom then go back to being institutionalised, but to a

much greater extent. What was that like to and did any sort of comparisons to school ever come

to mind as well?

Grant

Yeah, it was, it was very similar to school in a sense that it's structured. So you get, you know,

you have to have some kind of purpose or do some kind of learning. So I think the prison's know

that if anyone's not caught back, at least level two in maths or level three, it might be, you have

to complete that while you're in there, or work towards English as well. Key studies you're

probably going to need in your life, they'll give you you know, what your qualifications as well,

you can do electrics in the you can get City and Guilds qualified. And it's also the tiniest little

thing could kick off at any minute like it could at school, just by looking at someone. So if

someone looks at someone wrong, we're talking about fully grown men HEOS still acting like

children. And if that does happen, what you're looking at and a fight could actually happen from

that. And they have to be ready, though. And then to go for it. Because you saw confined in an

area, people can start to irritate you. And because you've probably bottled in all these emotions

up and someone's irritating, you might just take out on them. I didn't personally do anything like

that. I wasn't involved in any major altercations. I did have a couple of arguments what could

have gone but it was just so nonsensical, what people fight over the probably the best fighter so

between two ads, and they were both 100. And it was over one of them was going on a visit to

see his girlfriend and the other one was the barber on the wink. And he said he cut his hair but

then said I can't be bothered cutting your own when it got closer to the time. So he must have

gone away and he was chewing on it. And then he said right getting the pot. Wow. And it was

both handy lads. And they just went into the parlour and shut the door and they come out and

they both have big black eyes board everywhere. I'm thinking Wow. But is scary to think that

they're going in there and you don't know what limits? What limits it goes to imprison? Is it?

Would it be worth losing your life overall being completely, you know, had smashed in over and

not getting a haircut?

Alex

Well, it goes back to that first day. They're all making noises and saying what you're in for what

you're in for? Are you trying to pretend that you're not intimidated?

Grant

If you've never been in that situation before, like someone who probably listens to this who's

been to jail a few times? They wouldn't even remotely remember that? Because it's just a part of

what happens what? It's not necessarily what you infer, they're asking you have you got any

burn? I mean, that means that tobacco, they always want something. It's not the just don't have

any concern for you. Or you're just trying to see what he could get off. You're basically and see if

you want anything to give them on that day, but yeah, you're intimidated? Yeah, definitely I

would, I would always try not be not be intimidated. I'm not easily intimidated. But it's the fear of

the unknown is the probably the best, you don't know what you don't know where you go. When

you don't know the process, you don't know how the rest of that day is going to unfold. So yeah,

I think that's the main fear, what we're not going to hear you have no control over it.

Alex

I think fear and you mentioned fear, fear and control, to fascinating topics, to have the control

taken away from you, and people exerting their control on you. And then at the same time

having all these fears, what was that like to experience?

Grant

Yeah, I always remember thinking as long as I'm me, and I'm inside my own head, I'll be okay.

Because I'm not trying to boast I'm quite mentally strong too, I think as long because I wouldn't

like to, you know, my missus, for example, a doctor, she will be able to put up with that kind of

situation, or people who've been lifted, privileged or kind of different kind of lifestyle where

everything's given to them. I don't know how they would react, but I just knew I was just knew I

was going to be okay. And just because I was who I was, and I'm not someone who thinks I'm

better than anyone at a start. As long as I just go in with an open mind. look after myself when I

need to do not get in any trouble not instigate anything, not getting involved with anyone who

will not going to benefit me in any way. I will be okay. And you're drawn to people who have

similar interests, as you and I met people have still kept in touch with one of them weren't to be

an electrician and gone on to be an electrician. No, and he's, you know, doing well for yourself.

You're not always surrounded by people you don't want to be with there is a bit about there's a

big drug problem in there with the it's called spy. So it's not really popular outside, but in there,

that's the main cause. People die on that. Just completely addicted to it. But most of the people

you associate with it, just people you will probably associate with on the outside world as well.

And just normal guys like Ethan like yourself, people have just been to Creamfields. And there's

a lot of that is one day, and the whole lives changed. There's so much not so many normal lads

in there like myself, like you. You've just found yourself in a bad period of the life. So you've

come out of it. What's important, you know, at that time, and we're thinking, wow, I'm going to

start from scratch, you know, I have to rebuild my life. As soon as I go via I'm going to do this,

this and this, I was even writing it down on pads, my plan keeps you going day after day, oh, you

sat on all these ideas, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna start this business and, you know, not not off

of it don't come to anything, but it just gets you through day by day, the hoping that I took it as a

bit of a reset going to reset my life from this point, not associate with anyone who's going to drag

me into things I don't need to be involved in. I know what I've always wanted. And I will just, I'll

just go and do that.

Alex

The grant of 2022 How's he different from the grant of eight, nine years ago,

Grant

massive, I think children is changing the massive, we're compassionate. I think of others a lot

more. I see risks. So you know, and also want to if something's a risk, and it's gonna hinder me

or my family in any way to stay well away from it. A lot of people think they have a lot of friends

because they go to the pub all the time. And they're only friends when you're in the pool.

Because when you're not you when you stop going to stop being your friend. And that's just

exactly Oh my wife and me, Wes and Ross MITSUBA was when we all used to go out to be a

squad of 30 people that every weekend and not sweet to anyone. Not because I fell out with

them just because our backpacks have gone different ways they might still be doing stuff like

going out and partying or getting involved or whatever. And my life is not that anymore.

Alex

I almost can separate the friends I've had in the past with the friends I've got now and in some

senses by education some friends are at educate and some friends are not. And I think I think

the ones who are educated, they're self aware. Like you said before you think about other

people now you're more compassionate. I don't know about you. But I was very selfish when I

was younger, didn't want to help people, stingy, didn't want to share money with people, all

those kinds of things. And as you get older, and you become more educated in your, you do

courses and all of that you've constantly upskilling yourself, and not only are you improving

yourself professionally, but you're improving yourself personally as well. So the educated

people, the Educate friends that you've got, they are going to be thinking, Oh, I wonder how

grant is okay, I'll write him a letter, I'll give him a call or send him a message. And that's the

difference I think

Grant

is the time come towards the back end of that period, he was getting loads of letters from

different people. But one really well, it was one from a missus actually stood out. And I was

getting to that to the last, probably six weeks before I was due to be released. And my plan at

that time was get out and spend a bit of time we were when our new baby when Miss, I missed

him being born. Why was there so that broke my heart at the time. And it was from Charlotte,

and I haven't been able to speak to her for a few days for whatever on the phone, I don't have

the phones were down or something. She brought me a letter saying I've had some good news,

your ex boss has been in touch. And he's just wondering what your plans are when you get your

get out. I don't know what he's getting out. And I remember thinking, wow, that's interesting.

Like, why why would he do that? Because I think it was a Tuesday on the Thursday said, Can

you come around, you know, bring the baby and I want to see it. So we went home with a baby.

And there's a bit of small talk and all that. And then he said, What, what's your plans? And I

said, Well, I'm gonna obviously craft a cracker and get Ernie someone here but babies to feed

now and all that. And he said, would you have your job back? I was I didn't think it's ever been

an option. And you just shoot me the keys to the office. And when I come back whenever you

want, starting tomorrow, stay in two weeks that in two months, just as long as I know you're

going to come back. I remember just thinking wow, the people in your life what the friends as

such you have your best interests at heart. And by being a good person to him previously, is

remembered that I also got a phone call the day after the thought of another friend. And that sort

of taught him to do pull him when he came over from India. So he always would eat always

remember that. And a couple of days after a guy. He just wanted me by chance. He said what

are you doing for work? I said don't know. I'm just I've gotten a job back. He said, I've got you

know, if you want to start work tomorrow, you can come work for me. And I was like, just by

these people just being a worm, making an effort. I didn't even have to go to them. They both

come to me and offered me work the next day and i The people I would classes real friends for

the rep for the rest of my life. Obviously ones but still my boss No. And the other guy. I mean,

talk to him all the time. It's not a friendship where we go drinking in any way, shape, or form. It's

just a phone call every now and then. And the chat says yeah, we're both getting on. And the

the point of that is just be nice to people and help people as much as you can. And when, when

it's your turn to be helped. Those probably are going to be so fun that that'll give you a leg up

when you need it.

Alex

I remember being on a friend's stag do a good few years ago, you and I were there in a beater

and I remember you telling me the story about your ex boss and he had some troubles himself

when he was younger and he could relate to your story through his own background. And he

maybe he didn't have the opportunities when he was in trouble. So he wanted to almost pay that

forward to someone else he knew well.

Grant

Exactly that so he said the situation you was in in that car. He said I've probably been in that

situation many times it just that just didn't happen to me what happened to you? And he said

some of you other bosses or even how you would have been in that situation. Most of our

friends have probably been in similar situations. It's just the luck of the draw. And I think you

know I'm not a spiritual person but I do think things happen for a reason and I think the life I was

living at that time is probably not what I should have been doing without with certain people

staying out to Allah was all weekend not going on and stuff I think the outcome of that situation

happening is completely changed my life now it's better than it ever has been a very focused,

very driven and it's all down to just realise you give it your all because it was all taken away from

you at some time. You'd regret it I've swept spiralling away into a negative environment can

literally change everything in one day.

Alex

You think about the working class background that you and I have come from going to the same

school schools closed down the area you know, you meet some of the some of the characters

from that area who some people do self educate themselves and read lots of books and go on

courses and things. But the majority don't. From our from our experience and way, what, what

made you go down that path of read being a voracious reader, constantly trying to upskill

yourself, get yourself out of that environment because a lot of people go to prison, and then they

go back, and the cycle repeats, they go back to the same friends or same community. And they

don't want to make that difficult decision of getting themselves out of it. And I always love this

phrase of hard decisions, easy life, easy decisions, hard life.

Grant

People try and generalise things and put stuff in categories, but it is on the individual you've got

to want, you've got to want to do stuff, you've got to want to, you've got to be interested in a

cow, I listen to podcasts, sometimes people have never even heard of, and I just listen and

Nickleby. Two and a half hours, if I'm engrossed in it, and I'm learning something new. I'm

enjoying it. First and foremost, you have to be interested in whatever you're doing. And I do

think that a lot of these people who were in them cycles of prison or just stuck in some kind of

rut, gambling, whatever, to some extent, the muscle iChat, and they must be interested in it, or

they've literally got nothing better to do, or they don't know where to go or what, what they want

to do. Sometimes I think I don't even know what I want to do. I've got I've got a good job, I've got

a business on the side, I've got kids, I've got a family, I've got an actor who's I've still not 100%

What I want to do, I don't think I'm going to be doing what I'm doing today for the rest of my life,

I'm always looking for another opportunity or see what else there is out there what I can have a

go at.

Alex

So in the future, I want to be a father, I want to have a son. And I think about all of the

experiences I've had be able to shape him in a way that perhaps I wasn't shaped myself. We

probably have maybe a motivation coming from the background that we do to make sure that

our kids kind of mould them into the young men that maybe we weren't with your son, what do

you teach men how to becoming a young man with lots of great values and morals and respect

for others, etc.

Grant

I think there's an element of that was just in his nature. He saw kind everyone Eagle parents

evening. It's just his provide his manners. He always said he didn't hear it's an injustice. If one

child gets told off or something they've not done it and it's another child. He's He's quick to point

that out. No, you've got that wrong to the teacher. And like, that's the Yeah, it's an injustice. And

I think the only thing I want to mould him into is just be just be good. Work out for other people.

Just do what you can to record and try and be happy like it. He's playing football at the moment.

And he's just starting his first season in a league and stuff. It's great to go watch him as well. It

gives you something to do with purpose. I'm up early, doing a bit of pre training with him, then

we take him they'll see me if I got matching kits on this weekend to the adults in it. It's a proper

great day hope when they're playing on a Sunday.

Alex

Do you feel like a part of a community with all of those dads as well?

Grant

Yeah, definitely. We're all in WhatsApp groups. And it's great. I love the responsibility. I think

what more some men don't like the responsibility. I like getting up on the first one up in the

house, I met the breakfast secondary school when I can't if I'm not working, you know about the

responsibility to the leadership side that I lost a bit I enjoy the most of

Alex

the route a lot of things that fascinate me about this episode, after knowing grant for over 25

years here in this story just really brought a lot of different perspectives to my mind, Grant

demonstrated an incredible amount of maturity, to be able to forgive and accept that the other

lad was not going to change his plea, and then to actually share the same cell with that person.

Of course, he must have had some anger and frustration at what the other lab was not willing to

do. But to be able to put a positive spin on it, I suppose really helped his mental health in the

long run. Can you imagine doing that yourself being able to share the same cell with that

person, I find that very difficult to imagine, must take an incredible amount of discipline and the

ability to say no, when you're in a prison with so many criminals who are probably trying to

entice you into further criminal activity inside and outside the prison. And sadly, that's the vicious

cycle about the prison system. But for grant, he broke that cycle, and he didn't reoffend and he

got a job immediately after getting out of prison. And he completely re educated himself. He was

a voracious reader in prison as well. And he learned many different skills, many different things

that will help him or that did help him in future parts of his life. It's also clear that grant was very

fortunate to have a great support system as well, mutual friends of ours that were able to give

character assessments. And that showed him that he had the support and he wasn't alone. Role

models If he had in his life, for example, his ex boss who immediately gave him a job showed

him that he had those people who were there to inspire him and to take him to the next level of

his life away from crime. Grant was able to dramatically change his life and his priorities shifted,

and he was able to move away from those bad influences.