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[00:00:17] Dan: All right, welcome back to Mission Alive Podcast. Today we have Ryan Brown on the show. Ryan is the CEO of Open Doors U. S., an organization committed to supporting persecuted Christians worldwide. He has a rich background in non profit leadership and a deep passion for the global church and helping American Christians connect with those who face intense persecution for the faith.

[00:00:35] Dan: Ryan, welcome to the show.

[00:00:37] Ryan Brown: Welcome. Thank you so much, Dan. Amanda. It's just really an honor to be here with you today.

[00:00:44] Dan: Absolutely. Well, hey, for the listeners that aren't as familiar with Open Doors, can you just share with us a little bit of a background of kind of the beginning of Open Doors and what Open Doors is doing currently around the world?

[00:00:58] Ryan Brown: Yeah, absolutely. Be honored to. [00:01:00] So this next year will be 70 years that Open Doors really officially kicked off. And that work was kicked off by the A gentleman from the Netherlands that became known as Brother Andrew, and about 70 years ago, he started smuggling Bibles behind the Iron Curtain. He had attended a communist youth rally in Poland in 55, and as he engaged with some of the church, the church vocalized, and he became aware that there were entire congregations that didn't have access to the Word of God or very limited access, and so he began smuggling Bibles and gospel literature.

[00:01:39] Ryan Brown: Behind the iron curtain. And that gave birth to a ministry that is now working in, in over 70 countries around the globe through both at times covert and other times overt presence in different places. And, you know, we continue to respond to the, to the needs of the church as they're expressed.

[00:01:58] Ryan Brown: So, you know, [00:02:00] when The church there in Poland, you know, expressed that they needed access to the word of God. That's what he brought. You know, he didn't bring blankets or food items or things like that. He didn't bring the things that they weren't asking for, the things that they didn't need. And so, you know, recognizing that persecution looks different in different parts of the globe, the ways that we support the church in different parts of the globe look differently.

[00:02:22] Ryan Brown: You know, in some places, it is very much still providing access to the written word of God. In other places, that's not the issue. In other places you know, Christians have been denied access to education or to, to, to livelihood opportunities. And that's what threatens the church there that if, you know, men and women can't.

[00:02:40] Ryan Brown: Can't afford to feed their families that they can't stay in that area. And so we come alongside and support the church in the areas that it is asking to be supported around the globe. You know, very much recognizing that the Christ and the Holy Spirit is already at work in these places. And so, you know, how do we come [00:03:00] alongside that work that the Christ is doing, that the Holy Spirit is doing in these areas?

[00:03:05] Ryan Brown: So that that's that's who we are. That's you know, 70 years this next year that it opened doors has been seeking to be faithful in doing what God has called us to do.

[00:03:17] Dan: And I love how you used to the verbiage coming beside and what Christ is already doing, because we're not necessarily doing anything that, you know, he wouldn't be doing.

[00:03:27] Dan: Otherwise, we think it will hit Jesus in the scriptures. Like, I'm not doing anything. The father's not doing. And so I love how you guys are. are seeking what Jesus is already up to because it's his heart really to, to reach the nations more than, even more than our own hearts, right? So, share with us a little bit, you're working in a number of different countries, is there a broader focus that you have for reaching the nations?

[00:03:50] Ryan Brown: Yeah, so we're working in about 70 countries around the globe. And you know, every year we put out a world watch list and we, which we highlight the [00:04:00] countries in which Christians are most persecuted against and discriminated against because of their, their faith and, and Discipleship of Jesus Christ.

[00:04:09] Ryan Brown: And so those are the areas that we seek to work. Those are the areas that we seek to come alongside the church. Now, in some cases that's very, very difficult. You know, for example, North Korea has been a place on the top of the world watch list for a number of years. But yet there are, you know, many listeners and viewers know that, that there's there are.

[00:04:32] Ryan Brown: Economic sanctions against you know, the U. S. Deploying assets in those areas. And so we have to, to you know, to to honor those types of things. We you know, have to be very, very creative in how we support the church in those areas. What that looks like, for example, in a place like North Korea is we operate a number of safe houses across the border in China, in which, you know, members Of the church there is they they crossed that border were able to provide that support [00:05:00] to nurture them back to physical, emotional, spiritual health, and then these individuals are able to return back into North Korea to continue to be the hands and feet of Christ right there within the context of their persecution.

[00:05:16] Ryan Brown: We have a radio ministry that, you know, we're able to broadcast the word of God across the border into North Korea and let individuals know that they're not alone or not forgotten. So, you know, in different contexts, it does look different. You know, one of the trends that we've seen in recent years, specifically in sub Saharan Africa, it's just the In the dramatic increase in violence and you know, how that characterizes the persecution that's taking place there.

[00:05:47] Ryan Brown: So again, in some of those areas that there are, are safe houses and trauma centers in which individuals that have experienced a severe persecution and, and, and all of the trauma associated [00:06:00] with that, we can you know, help speak life and, and, and nurture to people. You know, both through you know, spiritual foundation and then as well you know, through at times economic resources or things along those lines can come alongside to provide support to individuals in those areas.

[00:06:18] Ryan Brown: So it does look different. We are spread throughout the globe. We You know, that's certainly you know, in Asia and in Africa and Central South America in, you know, the Central Asia area, basically those areas where the church is most under pressure are the areas that we seek to be.

[00:06:38] Dan: Wow. There's so much there, and I want to come back to Africa in a couple of minutes, but found it very interesting what you said there with North Korea that you're.

[00:06:47] Dan: Bring believers out of North Korea into another very closed country, into China. Protect them and to resuscitate essentially and bring them back. So you're taking them from one closed country to [00:07:00] another closed country. that's amazing. And so I'd love to hear more about that.

[00:07:04] Dan: And then the other thing is in preparing for this this podcast, I heard you share about some of the believers , in North Korea that when they are persecuted it's not just the believer themselves, that can suffer, but it can also be their family. Can you speak to that a little bit as well?

[00:07:22] Ryan Brown: Yeah. And I think, you know, you bring up a very good point that when, when You know, we're taking believers or ministering to them. When they're, they're fleeing the border to a place like China. I mean, that just shows you how difficult it is in North Korea and the realities there. You know, those realities are that, you know, it, For a family or an individual to be found in possession of, of a Bible you know, that individual and their entire family can face you know, a lifetime of in essence, indentured servitude, you know, that, that they're, they're in internment camps and, and, and working in forced labor type [00:08:00] situations.

[00:08:00] Ryan Brown: And so you know, it's, it is difficult. It's incredibly difficult. It's you know, for individuals that you are in North Korea you know, very rare are they able to even congregate in any form or fashion to, to worship together. You know, it's, if a neighbor hears they will likely be reported and, you know, children will be separated from parents and, and parents in, in prison and, and those types of things.

[00:08:29] Ryan Brown: And so you know, one of the, the, The great realities that, that believers in places like North Korea face is just the isolation, the isolation, you know, that our Christian experience you know, we are, we are a church, you know, we, we are there, there are elements of our faith that are to to be experienced and to be worked through in, in the context of community.

[00:08:52] Ryan Brown: And so in these cases where, or these areas where, you know, community Christians are denied access to that [00:09:00] community, it's incredibly difficult. So that's, you know, our, our founder brother, Andrew, he had famously said that, you know, our, our prayers can go in places that we can't, and I can't tell you how often I have heard from, from individuals in, in some of these difficult circumstances.

[00:09:17] Ryan Brown: who have vocalized how encouraging it is for them to know that there are believers around the globe that are lifting them up in prayer, to know that they're not alone, to know that they're not forgotten, to know that, you know, even though that they can't maybe, you know, physically shake the hand of a believer next to them they know that, you know, our, our prayers are there and that our prayers are locking arms with them in solidarity and lifting them up.

[00:09:46] Dan: The open doors world watch list is the most trusted report for the last 30 years on what's going on in terms of with persecuted Christians around the world. So it sounds like you have a lot of data. You get a lot of organic data from the [00:10:00] ground can you share with us some of the current trends and what that's looking like?

[00:10:04] Dan: Some of the stats that you guys are seeing.

[00:10:06] Ryan Brown: Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, the World Watch List it's been just over 32 years that that has been around and, you know, it just started as an in house research tool. You know, if we were looking to be an organization that was responding to the changing you know, face and complexion of persecution, you know, we needed to know, you know, You know, where it was spreading in different geographies.

[00:10:27] Ryan Brown: We needed to know what persecution looked like in those different contexts. And so you know, as you mentioned through our presence and partnerships on the ground, we were able to start collecting some of these pieces of data that really gave, you know, specific metrics that we could start to look at and track.

[00:10:48] Ryan Brown: To look at, you know, these trend indicators and things as it relates it to persecution and, and, you know, it wasn't long thereafter we realized, well, gosh, this, this might be a good resource to other Christian ministries as [00:11:00] well to make this available. And so we began making it available. And I, you know, I think one of the things that has surprised, maybe not everybody, but certainly a number of us is the degree to which, you know, even places like the State Department or, you know, different, you know you know, non faith based entities and agencies will utilize and reference this data.

[00:11:25] Ryan Brown: You know, there can be a lot of conversations as far as human rights on, on, you know, the freedom of religious belief. But, but, you know, very rarely is It's one of the few resources that specifically is able to look and drill down on that expression for those of a Christian faith. And so it has become a great resource of information to be utilized.

[00:11:52] Ryan Brown: I think that one of the things that, You know, it's been really important to us as an organization to is that, you know, it's not just data [00:12:00] for the sake of data. That's not just data for the sake of informing. But as individuals download that world watch list, you know, they'll see specific prayer points.

[00:12:10] Ryan Brown: They'll see you know, for each of those countries, things that we can specifically be praying. The distinction I, I often make is it's not just praying for the church in those areas, but it's praying with the church in those areas because these are the things that the individuals in those countries are praying for.

[00:12:26] Ryan Brown: And so we, we can join with them in those, those prayers. And so yeah, so that's, you know, the, the little bit of the history of the, the world watch list and how that gets utilized you know, even today,

[00:12:40] Dan: I'm thinking what you had to say there with. praying with those believers. Can you share with some of our listeners?

[00:12:48] Dan: What are some of those believers that are being persecuted? What are they asking you and asking us to pray with them?

[00:12:58] Ryan Brown: Yeah, you know, and this is one [00:13:00] of the things that I was so humbled by. I had spent a number of years in the relief and development sector. So this, you know, that's a sector that's focused on addressing the issues of extreme poverty around the globe.

[00:13:13] Ryan Brown: And you know, the goal in that industry was to, to eliminate poverty. The goal was to, to pull people out of, of that, that experience of poverty. You know, as a approach, this, This area of persecution, it could be really easy to sometimes assume what the goal is similar. The goal is to end persecution or the goal is to pull people out of persecution.

[00:13:34] Ryan Brown: But, you know, that's not what the church is asking for by and large in those areas. One, I mean, we know from scripture that the only way to totally end persecution is to stop the proclamation of Jesus Christ that, you know, you take a look in second Timothy and other types of passages that, you know, we're told the persecution will come to those that [00:14:00] follow Christ.

[00:14:00] Ryan Brown: And so you know, The only way to end persecution is to end the proclamation of Jesus Christ, which that that's obviously not what we're going to do. The other thing that, you know, again, it's just so humbling is that, you know, men and women by and large, there are extreme situations where folks do have to be pulled out and, and, you know, seek asylum and things like that across borders in a different country.

[00:14:22] Ryan Brown: But, but by and large, when we come alongside and what they are asking for is not that the persecution would end. That they would be faithful in their testimony and their witness within their persecution that, you know, they, they recognize that God has placed them in this time and place and that God's kingdom is advancing and God's kingdom can very well advance through the power of their testimony as, as they are faithful to what Christ has called them to do.

[00:14:54] Ryan Brown: And so, you know, when. So often what our brothers and sisters are asking for in prayers [00:15:00] is one that they just First and foremost that they're remembered in prayer that we're lifting them up But that we're lifting them up so that again that they don't falter or fail in their testimony They can remain faithful witnesses to jesus christ that they can be his hands and feet Even in that very context where it's that faith in christ for which they're being persecuted

[00:15:21] Amanda: You know and with that like what?

[00:15:25] Amanda: You In all your experience across these different countries with believers from different backgrounds, different situations of persecution, what is the number one just the number one thing that keeps them going, that keeps them focused? How do they have that fortitude to not be crushed in spirit?

[00:15:46] Ryan Brown: Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I, Jesus talked about a pearl of great price and you know, recognition that that, that kingdom the kingdom of God was worth [00:16:00] more than all other things. And, you know, I think that You know, for our brothers and sisters that have and continue to experience intense persecution, I think they bring a whole nother lens, a whole nother layer of meaning to what that type of a parable means.

[00:16:21] Ryan Brown: That idea that the pearl of, of, of great cost. And, and, you know, I think that there are so many of our brothers and sisters that recognize that You know, when the Bible says that, you know, we are laying up treasures in heaven and, and, you know, these things as horrific as they seem that this is not the end of the story.

[00:16:42] Ryan Brown: And, you know, when the full story is told, you know, as Paul said, Even these things will seem like light momentary afflictions. And I, I think that, you know, the really, the only way that Christians can you know, [00:17:00] persevere through those types of the thing is, is that firm belief that you know, to, to have that, that eternal mindset to recognize, yes, that, that, that this is, this is not the end.

[00:17:11] Ryan Brown: This is not the totality Of who I am and what life will will be. Maybe life on Earth. This is the totality of that. But our life on Earth is just a drop in the bucket compared to our eternal life. And you know, there's so many, you know, as when you start to look through those lenses There's so much of scripture that just starts to, to, to pop up, you know, that this, this idea that, okay, this world is not our home, that, you know, we're just passing through you know, that, that's a perspective that we all should have, you know, and so many of us, you know, can, can focus and put disproportionate you know, significance on, you know, the, the comfort of here and now You know, the, the, the realities of right now are 401k [00:18:00] balances and, you know, eventual retirements and, and those types of things and, you know, our attention and efforts can be temporal, can be, be limited to, to the, the, the confines of, of the years that we have on this earth.

[00:18:16] Ryan Brown: But I think that, you know, it's so important for us all to recognize, and again there's so many of our brothers and sisters that do that, that have that eternal perspective that, you know, what we do now you know, certainly has consequences and rings throughout eternity but this isn't the end.

[00:18:32] Ryan Brown: This isn't it.

[00:18:33] Dan: Yeah, and I feel like you're kind of touching on this, but Open Doors has a different perspective of the persecuted church. You see them as. A gift to the global body of Christ. Can you explain that a little bit more?

[00:18:48] Ryan Brown: Absolutely. Yeah. You know, I'll talk, you know, specifically. So, like, in our North American context, I mean, I don't think that, you know, I don't think that any of us would argue the fact that we are [00:19:00] increasingly living in a post Christian culture. That, you know, we're seeing that you know, the principles and the ideals and the convictions of the kingdom of God are increasingly at ends with the broader cultural context in which we live in.

[00:19:15] Ryan Brown: And that, you know, for many of us, And especially in the U. S. That that is that is a new area that that is that is new territory. You know, so many of us, you know, have reacted in ways that, you know, we've come out swinging, you know, declaring war and those types of things, or we've completely shrunk back in fear and isolated ourselves from the culture.

[00:19:40] Ryan Brown: But yet, In the midst of that, you know, the call for Christ has remained the same for the last 2000 years is to go into all the world and to make disciples. But yet there's so many of us that, you know, if truth be told, rather than making disciples of our [00:20:00] culture, we've been discipled by our culture.

[00:20:03] Ryan Brown: You know, we have allowed our culture to impact how we approach. You know, our churches are places of worship. We've allowed our culture to dictate and influence how we even approach the truth of scripture, where, where we start to approach rather than as disciples, we approach these things as consumers saying, I like this, I don't like this.

[00:20:29] Ryan Brown: I'm going to agree with this. I'm going to take this all of these types of things, you know, we, where You know, to your question, as far as a gift to the global church, you know, I think our, our brothers and sisters at great cost have made that determination that they are going to use their faith to determine how they will engage with their culture, rather than use their culture to determine how they will engage with their faith.

[00:20:55] Ryan Brown: And we need that. We need those stories. We need those [00:21:00] examples that we can see lived out. We need you know, the power of those those testimonies. And so that is the gift that I think you are our brothers and sisters that have experienced in our experience in persecution have to offer us in the body of Christ.

[00:21:17] Ryan Brown: They show us you know, what that can mean, what that can look like to to value the things and put those things in the proper priority as disciples of Christ rather than as disciples of culture.

[00:21:32] Dan: That's, that's huge. That's good. That's good. I love how you, , at Open Doors have flipped the script on that, where in terms of how you see the global body of Christ, they're a gift.

[00:21:44] Dan: And I would love to hear, can you share with us, We pray for We pray with them. You were mentioning about praying with them, right? What are some of the things? The global persecuted church prays for western Christians. [00:22:00] What do they pray for us? Yeah,

[00:22:02] Ryan Brown: that's that that's a great question and you know it you know Risk of painting with a very broad brush, you know I think one of the things I will mention that it has been prayed for that has honestly been most most convicting is that we would experience some levels of persecution in ways that would awaken us and mobilize us that, you know, I, it, it, it, It seems that the enemy has two primary tools in his toolbox.

[00:22:32] Ryan Brown: You know, there will be times where, where the enemy is trying to, to extinguish the church through persecution, through that, that idea of, you know fear and intimidation and breaking the back of the church. There are other times, though, where I think that the enemy has taken a completely different tactic in which he's lavished us and allowed us to be lavished in comforts

[00:22:54] that

[00:22:54] Ryan Brown: he has allowed us to, and we see this in Revelation is, you [00:23:00] know, that the churches are being identified that there are those churches that were seen as lackadaisical, that they had grown comfortable in, you know, You know, in the in their faith and you know It's it's not that our comfort is something that we should be should despise or should be ashamed of, you know Paul talks about you know that the god of all comfort has extended us comfort, you know, he's given us comfort It's it's it's a gift that he's given but I think that unfortunately so many of us have lived our lives As if he had given us that gift for the intent for us just to be comfortable but he has extended comfort to us so we can in turn be comfort to others.

[00:23:43] Ryan Brown: And so, you know, that is, I think you know, is our brothers and sisters around the globe. See that, you know, it, it, it's so humbling to, to see that, you know, we've had brothers and sisters, you know, we'll, we'll come to them and say, gosh, you know, it's just so amazing. I don't [00:24:00] know how. You know, you, you can hold to your faith in the midst of such persecution and to hear responses is, you know, we don't know how you can hold to your faith in the midst of such comfort, you know, in the midst of of such wealth and those types of things.

[00:24:16] Ryan Brown: And so, you know, it's, it's not that our brothers and sisters are mean spirited or trying to level the playing field. It's out of a desire to, to see us lean in and to Be all that Christ has called us to be to, you know, in essence, wake a sleeping giant of the faith and, and say that, you know that is, as we lean into his disciples of Christ, what, what he has called us as a church to do, you know, suddenly we probably find we're not going to, You know, come to blows quite as easily arguing about what kind of coffee we serve in the church lobby or things like that, and maybe start looking at things of maybe a little bit greater eternal significance and prioritizing and maybe getting a little bit more [00:25:00] passionate about some of those things.

[00:25:01] Dan: It's a great point that you were sharing. I was kind of thinking that we all, you know, we all make up the body of Christ and that we all, you know, we're working together at our best. We can and be in situations where we can speak truth and love that. It's not malicious home, but we can be like, hey, did you notice this? Have you thought about this? And those sorts of questions really help help sharpen us. I think iron sharpens iron and people that are passionate about Jesus across the world can sharpen each other and help encourage each other towards the things that God is doing.

[00:25:30] Dan: And so I want to kind of pivot as I think there's a perfect point to pivot as we're talking about persecution. One of the stats that just kind of blew my mind With attacks on churches and Christian properties rose by 700 percent globally, and that's over 14, 000 incidents in 2024 alone. And I'm also seeing that there's a lot of that persecution that's happening in Africa, which is where you were earlier, and Nigeria seems to [00:26:00] be one of the hotbeds in that.

[00:26:02] Dan: Can you begin to kind of share with our audience a little bit more of what's going on in Africa? And is there any kind of trend? Where is some of this coming from? Where do you, where do you sense that it is going?

[00:26:12] Ryan Brown: Yeah, there has been a multi year trend as it relates to those areas in Africa. And you're, you're exactly correct that in many ways, Nigeria can kind of be viewed as an epicenter of so much that's going on there.

[00:26:27] Ryan Brown: There were more people that were martyred because of their faith in Jesus last year in Nigeria than all other places of the globe combined. You know, over, over 4, 000 folks were, were martyred because of their faith. And you know, that that multi year trend has seen you know, that the characterization that the expression of persecution just becoming increasingly violent and that violent, you know, certainly can result in martyrdom.

[00:26:55] Ryan Brown: It can result in physical beatings and assault and [00:27:00] those types of things. It can Be destruction of property of, you know, homes being rated of, you know, Christian schools or churches or hospitals being, being destroyed. You know, that, that has been a, a multi year trend. You know, what is so interesting is that it was a little over a year ago now that there was a gathering of, of church leaders throughout Africa.

[00:27:23] Ryan Brown: They, they came together and in essence, they, they, they signed a. A proclamation they, they signed and, and, and asked the global church not to forget them to, to, to be aware of what is going on. It, to me, it just, it, it hearkened back to, you know, in the early Chapters of acts. There's there's an account where you know, the Grecian Jews are saying that their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food and those types of things.

[00:27:55] Ryan Brown: And so the apostle spoke to that, and they address that, and you know, [00:28:00] appointed leaders there to help address that. And it seems in a very similar spirit to what our brothers and sisters in Africa have done, that they've come together and said, hey, we feel that we've been forgotten. We feel that we've been forgotten.

[00:28:12] Ryan Brown: We've been ignored. We feel like the world is not aware of what is going on here. And we're asking you to stand with us in this, to not let us be forgotten, to support us as we seek to be the hands and feet of Christ here. There has been massive displacement throughout you know, our, our research and, you know, on the ground.

[00:28:33] Ryan Brown: Would say that there's about 16.2 million Christians that are right now displaced, not living in their homes because they, they've had to, to flee or, or to exit. Some of these are in formalized IDP camps others are, are informal. And you know, the reality is, is that, you know it in some of these cases, you know, it's.

[00:28:57] Ryan Brown: Christians it's always in a broader [00:29:00] context. In many cases, there's, you know, a bigger picture of instability where, where lots of people have been displaced. It's not just Christians that have been displaced, but in those situations, so often it's the Christians that you could almost say are kind of.

[00:29:18] Ryan Brown: doubly at risk because, you know, in, in some of these IDP camps you know, we get routine and regular reports that, you know, when it comes to things like distribution of food or aid or those types of things that, you know, Christians can be overlooked in favor of others, you know, who are of the same faith persuasion of those that might be involved.

[00:29:39] Ryan Brown: in power or controlling that they can't been in those things. And so you know, even when that displacement is not necessarily specifically because someone was targeted because their faith, Christians can be impacted. In even more significant ways than all of the others that have been displaced at times, [00:30:00] Christians have been specifically targeted for their faith and have been forced to flee their homes and and things.

[00:30:08] Ryan Brown: And so, yeah, the situation in Africa is continued on this multi year trend where it has become increasingly violent and our brothers and sisters. You know, we help make their situation known so that, you know, we as a global church can lock arms in solidarity with them and come alongside we've recently committed to having a greater intentionality with how we are supporting the church in Africa.

[00:30:39] Ryan Brown: And, you know, we are inviting people to there's a What we're just calling a prayer and petition declaration that we're, we're asking a million believers around the globe to sign and to be part of, to, to let their brothers and sisters in Africa know that they've not been forgotten, that we are lifting them up in prayer, that we are trying to support them [00:31:00] in their need.

[00:31:01] Ryan Brown: You know, when you take a look at some of the situations and the circumstances that these individuals are living in it is difficult. You know, these are not you know, so many of these, these camps are not cushy places you know, it will be literally thousands of individuals having to share a singular, singular toilet.

[00:31:20] Ryan Brown: You know, it's kids that have, have been out of, of education and, and schooling for, for years. And again, this isn't just a short term situation. Many of these individuals have been living in these. Circumstances now for years you know, 567 years or so that folks have been displaced and, you know, living under a tarp that's not even big enough toe cover their entire family when they lay down to sleep at night.

[00:31:47] Ryan Brown: So very, very difficult situations. But you know what? It's so Encouraging in the midst of that, when you take a look at so many of these places you [00:32:00] know, in Africa, where really, I mean, this is something you see globally as well, areas where persecution is continuing to grow and to map and to be most experienced.

[00:32:12] Ryan Brown: When you overlay that, you know, with a map showing the areas where the church is most growing, there's a lot of overlap there that, you know, it's as if the enemy is trying to squelch something that the Holy Spirit is doing in these areas and trying to break the back of the church. But You know, Jesus himself said that, you know, not even the gates of hell are going to prevail against the church.

[00:32:38] Ryan Brown: And we see that being played out in so many of these places in real time that the church is continuing to advance and that the church is continuing to persevere in the midst of persecution.

[00:32:51] Dan: Wow, it's so true. How often times. The physical is reflecting the spiritual. You see [00:33:00] what's happening in the spiritual realm by looking there in the, in the physical, you know, and we can see that in the Middle East currently, we've had guests before talking about how Iran is the fastest growing church in the entire, entire world at least it has been in the last several years, and it's, it's, it's mind blowing, and yet that's where there's There's a huge amount of persecution, there's a lot of resistance, and yet that's where it continues to multiply.

[00:33:23] Dan: Often led by women leaders often with the people who have that perspective , that eternal perspective. This isn't all that matters. I am the gospel matters, and sharing that with my neighbor matters. So, on a practical level, you're saying that our Christian brothers and sisters in Africa gave this cry.

[00:33:42] Dan: We feel left out. We feel like we're not being attended to. Organizations like Open Doors is indeed attending. How does Open Doors come beside those brothers and sisters and meet some of those practical needs?

[00:33:57] Ryan Brown: Yeah, it is multifaceted. I will [00:34:00] say it all points towards you know, how do we support the church to be the church in these areas?

[00:34:06] Ryan Brown: And so, you know, what that looks like in some areas, it is very much. You know, providing some of those discipleship resources to allow the church to continue to build disciples and, and, and you know, continue to grow the church in that, that way. Other cases, I mean, boy, there's some of these, these stories that they are.

[00:34:30] Ryan Brown: Horrific. You know, I think that we all know the type of trauma that some of these, these things can invite. And so in some of the cases, it's, it's providing access to, to trauma centers where, where people can, can work through and come to places of healing, not just physical, but also emotional and mental healing as well.

[00:34:53] Ryan Brown: In those areas you know, in many areas, The, you know Christians have been [00:35:00] denied access to, you know, employment opportunities. And so, you know, again, for a family, if they're not able to, to, to meet their needs and, and, you know, they're often forced to leave those geographies and, you know, when those, When you're seeing Christian men and women having to leave, you know, the church can implode, you know, in those areas that, you know, when all of the leaders are forced to leave.

[00:35:25] Ryan Brown: And so we have come alongside and at times it's livelihood programs. We have done things like and like, Chicken farming schools and, you know, those types of things. Some of the things that, you know, in should be like a relief and development social economic development. Some of those things are very much look similar to, to those types of programs where we're coming alongside and creating opportunities where people could provide for themselves and their families.

[00:35:53] Ryan Brown: But again, the goal is not just so that people can provide for their families. The goal is so people can provide for their [00:36:00] families so that they continue to To be Christ ambassadors and, and disciples right there in, in their context. And so, you know, it, it looks different that we have livelihood programs, we have education programs you know, we, it, there are many folks that, you know, they're not able to, to read the word of God not because they don't have access to it, but because.

[00:36:24] Ryan Brown: never had literacy training or opportunity or those types of things or education. And so we've been able to come alongside with literacy programs so that people can read the word of God. You know, so it, it looks different in each of those, those contexts. But The goal in each and every one is to be responsive to the needs there in the community and the opportunity and the ways that Christ is at work there, rather than just coming in with kind of our prepackaged solutions and things like that and saying persecuted church.

[00:36:59] Ryan Brown: You know, this [00:37:00] is, this is what you need. You need to go through this, this, this, this, this, and then you're a certified persecuted church or that type of thing. We don't do that. You know, we, we come alongside again in the ways that you know, are, are of most value as stated by our brothers and sisters that are experiencing persecution right there on, on the ground.

[00:37:21] Ryan Brown: So yeah, that's You know, the, the contextualization is, is really a, a key part. And again, that, that goes all the way back to Brother Andrew, like we talked about at the beginning. You know, his response when, you know, people needed the word of God, you know, he wasn't bringing blankets to them, he wasn't bringing can of food items or, or those types of things.

[00:37:38] Ryan Brown: He was bringing what was needed to, to respond to the need that was being vocalized.

[00:37:45] Dan: Mm-Hmm. so good. I'm so happy that you shared that because I think as Americans, as Westerners, we have such a desire to create a system, and we have such a desire to kind of corporatize and, systematize [00:38:00] everything, and so it's like, if this, then do that.

[00:38:02] Dan: Like

[00:38:03] Amanda: a franchise model. Like a franchise

[00:38:05] Dan: model, right? And that doesn't work with when we, when we talk of developing countries and in reaching persecuted Christians, I mean, we look at the Bible and, you know, did healing happen when they went and washed in the, in a river, or did it happen when he said, do this, or, you know, just simply by speaking it, or, you know, put mud on eyes, like, you can't put Jesus and you can't put God and you can't put reaching his people in a box and say, this is the only way to do it.

[00:38:31] Dan: I love how you guys are applying that. And so. So many people we've heard that they can't hear the gospel shared with them because of the over the rumbling of their stomach, their hungry stomach, right? And so there's a, there's a mixture of spiritual and practical that need to go together and it's it's wonderful to hear that your organization is exemplifying that and coming beside in so many different ways.

[00:38:54] Dan: For the listener that would love to hear more about your organization and to [00:39:00] begin to get your watch list. How? How would our listeners go about getting getting connected that way?

[00:39:07] Ryan Brown: Yeah, they can actually just go to our website open doors us dot org. And on there, they'll see front page information about the World Watch list.

[00:39:18] Ryan Brown: They can click on that, download a copy. There are also a number of prayer oriented resources. The World Watch list itself does you know, list specific prayer things, but we have daily prayer calendars and things like that, that, that individuals can, can download and, and, You know, emails that people can receive to, to, to be reminded and provide be provided specific ways in which we can be praying.

[00:39:45] Ryan Brown: You'll also see in some of the resources, we do have a specific area on that. We just label a rise Africa. And you know, on that, if, if folks are, are so inclined, and I would encourage people to do this, to, to, to go into, to sign [00:40:00] that that, that statement and say, Hey We see, you know, and, and I'm praying and I'm committing that again, I, I wouldn't encourage people just to go and to, to click for the sake of clicking just to pad a number or a stat or things along those lines.

[00:40:12] Ryan Brown: But I would encourage people to, to do that with, with sincerity and, and just to sign that and say you know, brothers and sisters in Africa, we see you, we hear you, and we pray for you, and you have not been forgotten.

[00:40:26] Amanda: Oh, it's so good. You know, I do have one more question. You know, with a background in health care, I often think of the people who are doing the work the work there, you know, on the ground, you know, like in a hospital, there's doctors, nurses, technicians that do different tasks.

[00:40:42] Amanda: And there is such a high possibility for burnout or compassion fatigue, as an organization how do you guys help prevent that? Because I'm sure you get faced all the time with horrific stories with people [00:41:00] you knew that lost their lives. And you know, tragedy upon tragedy, how, how do you keep yourselves going, , as helpers, as people on the ground?

[00:41:13] Ryan Brown: Yeah, that that that is such a great question because you know, I even added another dynamic there and there are times where, you know, it has been just so apparently obvious that, you know, the enemy is trying to thwart some of that, that work that is occurring. And so it can, you know, there can be elements of spiritual warfare that certainly rise in there as well.

[00:41:35] Ryan Brown: To, you know, things like, you know, the compassion, fatigue and, you know, all of those, those different things that, you know, can, can weigh so, so heavily on us. I think, you know there are a number of, of, of, of things that, you know, we, we look to do to you know, make sure that we are staying centered and focused on the gospel of Christ you know, to, to make sure that there's [00:42:00] intentionality.

[00:42:00] Ryan Brown: Amen. that, because I think at the end of the day, there's also a reality that, you know, when you look at such great need, there can be a tendency to say, Well, I just, I just Have to, you know I can't stop, you know, I, I need to, to, to be always in go mode and, and, you know, always hitting the red line. And, you know, when you look at the circumstances, that would be really justified.

[00:42:31] Ryan Brown: And at times, you know we, we live in a culture that would, would applaud that, you know, kind of that, that continued living at that, that red line of sustainability. But, you know, one of the things that we do try to remind ourselves to is that that can really easy give way and invite a theological problem because suddenly we think that God's ability to work and the Holy Spirit is there.

[00:42:57] Ryan Brown: Amen. Amen. dependent upon our [00:43:00] efforts in that that red line territory,

[00:43:02] Ryan Brown: Which is not the case. You know, our, our greatest impact you know, there can be seasons where, yes, we, we are called to engage in ways that have us, You know, in that red line territory, and it's you know, by the grace of God that were sustained, but there are other times where, where we realized that, I mean, one of the first things our God did was, you know, Institute of Sabbath, you know, this idea that, okay, we do need to have these, these rhythms of rest and reflection and God shows up in those, those ways.

[00:43:34] Ryan Brown: And so, you know, if we believe that, you know, you are. Efforts of, you know, putting in that 20 hour day as opposed to, you know, an eight hour day or a 10 hour day or those types of things are what are going to advance the gospel. I think we've missed. What? You know, we've missed the point. We've missed the point [00:44:00] of of the gospel that it is christ's work that does it It is his holy spirit.

[00:44:04] Ryan Brown: And I think the unfortunate reality is that sometimes we rob ourselves of You know seeing the way that god might choose to work When we saw no other imaginable way possible that it was going to get done where you know When we thought there was no other way by which you know The gospel of christ was going to be advancing other than me You know, hoisting it upon my shoulders and carrying it across the line we have missed out on the opportunity to see how God was going to do something miraculous in ways that we could have never known or anticipated.

[00:44:38] Ryan Brown: So, you know, I. In answer to your question, I wouldn't pretend to say that we always get that right, but we do recognize that, you know, it's important not just because of physical health or emotional health or those types of things, but there's a theological undercurrent [00:45:00] there that is mission critical, you know, that if we miss that, you know, we've missed so much more.

[00:45:07] Ryan Brown: And so you know, those rhythms that we talked about, you know, God shows up in those, God works through those. so often uses those guard rails to protect our hearts and minds. And, and, you know, our families and things along those lines. But there are times too, where God will call you know, the individuals to, to step up and, to, you know, be martyred for their faith.

[00:45:33] Ryan Brown: And so it's, there's, you know, The overarching is that it's, it's about obedience and faithfulness to what Christ has called us to do rather than, you know, an agenda or a plan or, you know, our, our best thinking as far as how this is supposed to advance.

[00:45:54] Amanda: So good.

[00:45:55] Dan: So well said. Well, we want to be honoring of your time today Ryan.[00:46:00]

[00:46:00] Dan: One last question and one last thought as, as our listeners are, are hearing this and maybe their hearts are stirred and maybe they've not been aware of the, of the persecution that our Christian brothers have been facing around the world, what would be kind of a last message, a last thought for them that are saying, man, I, I want to do something about this.

[00:46:20] Dan: God has put something in my heart. What's my next step? What would you say is the next step and some of the thoughts For them, I say. Begin that journey of being aware and now making an impact and doing something about it.

[00:46:33] Ryan Brown: Yeah. My first is anytime God's people are attacked because of their faith in Christ.

[00:46:39] Ryan Brown: It is first and foremost a spiritual issue. And, you know, prayer is not a strategy of last resort. It is a frontline in this. And so I always invite people to, to respond in prayer you know, specifically, I would encourage, you know, even just starting with that world watch list, you know, there's 50 weeks, 52 weeks in a year, there's 50 [00:47:00] countries highlighted, you know, becomes a real good, good opportunity just to, to utilize some of those, those prayer requests.

[00:47:07] Ryan Brown: To just in a few minutes, just working that into a regular cadence in our lives. And, you know, Christ has a way and the Holy Spirit has a way of, as we approach and lift up these things in prayer, you know, it aligns our hearts to the heart of the father. And then, you know, from there, we're able to take the next step of obedience, whatever Christ might Call us to do whatever he may you know, call us to do as a next extension of that, that awareness.

[00:47:39] Ryan Brown: But you know, it starts with prayer to aligning our hearts to the heart of heart of the father. Great word. Amen. Wow.

[00:47:48] Dan: Well, Ryan, what an honor to have you on the show. Listeners, we'll have those links in the show notes for you so you can connect with Open Doors and Ryan and also with the updates as well.

[00:47:56] Dan: So, Ryan, thank you so much

[00:47:59] Amanda: for

[00:47:59] Dan: being on the show with [00:48:00] us today, and we speak blessing over everything you and Open Doors puts its hand to, and, and may you have an increasing impact in reaching the persecuted church around the world.

[00:48:09] Ryan Brown: Well, and I want to thank both of you as well for the ministry and the mission that you are doing to invite and to challenge us all into a mission of life.

[00:48:21] Ryan Brown: That is what Christ has called us to. And so, you know, thank you for your faithfulness. Thank you for your obedience and doing what Christ has called you to do.

[00:48:30] Dan: Amen. Thank you so much.

[00:48:32]