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[00:00:00] Shawna: Did you know that the US has a national mental health crisis line? It's been around since last summer, but I just now learned about it. It's 988 and it's called The Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. It is one of the many gems we will get to learn about more from our conversation with the author of the Empathetic Workplace, five Steps to Compassionate, calm, and Confident Response to Trauma on the Job.

[00:00:26] Shawna: We'll also learn the acronym LASER and some great tips on drawing boundaries. Just stick around to the very end.

[00:00:35] Shawna: Welcome to The Grit Show, growth on Purpose. I'm your host, Shawna Rodrigues, and I'm happy to be here with you as your guide for all of us growing together as seekers and thrivers.

[00:00:49] Shawna: Katharine Manning has a gentle voice that makes you want to lean in and listen. She is the president of Blackbird DC. Which provides training and consultation on empathy at work. She also teaches at American University and in the Masters and Trauma-Informed Leadership Program at Dominican University.

[00:01:07] Shawna: In our conversation today, you'll learn more about her book, the Empathetic Workplace, five Steps to a Compassionate, calm, and Confident Response to Trauma on the Job. This book makes her writing more accessible to each of us. You can also find her work featured in the Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, Thrive Global, and C E O World.

[00:01:26] Shawna: She has worked on issues of trauma and victimization for more than 25 years, including 15 years at the Justice Department where she was a senior attorney advisor consultant on victim issues in cases like the Boston Marathon bombing and the Pulse nightclub shooting. She has done some exciting and important work and we get to learn more about her perspective and what she has to offer in our conversation today.

[00:01:50] Shawna: I'm so glad she's able to join us. Thank you for being here, Katharine.

[00:01:55] Katharine: Thank you for having me. It's such a pleasure.

[00:01:57] Shawna: How did you go from your focus in the legal aspect of things and working as a lawyer to focusing on trauma and that intersection and how that interplays.

[00:02:06] Katharine: When I first got to college, I actually, one of the first things I did was start volunteering on the hotline of the local domestic violence shelter, and that was really what pushed me to go to law school, was seeing all of the challenges that those victims had in the legal system all through law school I continued to do that kind of work, domestic violence, rape, crisis work, then I went to a firm for a few years, but then when I got to DOJ, I was able to focus fully on working with victims. One of the things I discovered is I was not very good at the frontline work, working directly with victims. You know, particularly in my twenties, I had really a lot of trouble with boundary settings, so I just kind of wanted to bring everybody home with me, which is not a great way to be, you know, when you're working with lots of people who are victims of domestic violence.

[00:02:52] Katharine: And so when I got the job at DOJ , what was nice about it was that I was able to support victims, but not be on the frontline. So I did a lot of training and policy work and consulting on cases, but I wasn't the one working directly with victims. But through that work, I started working on all different array kinds of cases, you know, from fraud to trafficking.

[00:03:14] Katharine: And one of the things I started to realize was that victims all needed the same things. You know, it wasn't like you needed wildly different things if you were a victim of identity theft versus domestic violence. Everybody needed to be heard and acknowledged. Everybody needed access to supports to help them heal.

[00:03:29] Katharine: And then I began to realize it wasn't just the victims in my cases who needed that. It was a lot of the prosecutors and agents that I was working with. A lot of my colleagues at the Justice Department had issues either arising from the cases or from their lives. You know, one coworker or father was dying, another was dealing with a pretty toxic boss.

[00:03:48] Katharine: Another was a little concerned that her ex-boyfriend was maybe stalking her. And I realized the same skills that I had developed in working with victims could be applied a lot more broadly. it was really when Me Too Happened, I would say it was sort of a turning point for me because on the one hand, I was thrilled that the whole world was talking about these issues that I've been thinking about and working on for so long.

[00:04:11] Katharine: But also I was kind of frustrated because I felt like Me Too put so much on survivors. You have to share your story. Everybody needs to hear your story, but without an understanding that when somebody shares their story with you, you have an obligation as the listener to listen in a compassionate and supportive way to offer supports to them.

[00:04:28] Katharine: It just seemed like everything was put on the shoulders of survivors, and I found that really frustrating. So, you know, when you find something, Frustrating. That's your sign. You're supposed to do something. So that's really when I started working on the book like, well, what is it you think people should be doing?

[00:04:41] Katharine: And I Came up with, there's really five things I think people should do in those conversations. And that's really what the book is about. So that's, I left the Justice Department in 2019 and since then, what I do is advise organizations on working with employees or clients or members of the public who might be in trauma and how to do a better job of supporting them while also taking care of themselves.

[00:05:04] Shawna: And that is such a unique area to be looking at because I think a lot of organizations don't know how to respond and don't know their role. And especially that unique perspective you has with the legal aspects of that, I'm sure is comforting for organizations to kind of know that this is how they should approach it.

[00:05:21] Shawna: So can you tell us more like what would you define as the type of trauma that they would be responding for as companies?

[00:05:27] Katharine: Sure. I mean certainly here in the 2020s, traumas like the air were breathing, right? We've got everything from Covid to George Floyd to anti-Asian hate and war in Ukraine and mass shootings.

[00:05:38] Katharine: I mean, it's kind of all around us, but the reality is it has always been all around us. We've always worked with people who are in abusive relationships or who are dealing with addiction or facing illnesses, caring for loved ones. We've always been working with people who are struggling in some ways, it's just we are often aren't aware of it.

[00:05:55] Katharine: I define trauma in my work as a psychological injury that affects performance. And the reason I use that definition, which is sort of a slimmed down version of the SAMHSA definition, the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration. I like their definition because in contrast to some others, it doesn't require that you have experienced a certain type of life experience to qualify Yes. Who's experiencing trauma? Yes.

[00:06:21] Shawna: Yeah. Or the level is just what's affecting you, which is really what is the most important part of it.

[00:06:26] Katharine: Exactly. Yeah. I really wanna get away from trying to figure out what you have experienced and then deciding whether or not you've experienced trauma.

[00:06:33] Katharine: Really the question is the person in front of you, do they need some help? And if so, let's give them some help without getting too caught up in the labels.

[00:06:41] Shawna: That's wonderful. And do you mostly work with the managers, or HR or the organization as a whole? Is this for how colleagues can respond to each other?

[00:06:50] Shawna: Is it mostly how the organization responds to individuals? When you are working with organizations, what level are they responding at?

[00:06:56] Katharine: You know, usually I do work with the leadership because I find that this is one of those areas where it's important that the leadership is on board with it. But for instance, there's a company that I do work with, it's called Ketchum.

[00:07:07] Katharine: They're a communications company and they made this commitment, we wanna be a trauma informed company. And so what we've been doing with a couple of other consultants since last summer is we did training for all of their 50 top managers in the company and then are doing now an online training for the entire company.

[00:07:25] Katharine: So if you work in accounting, if you work in sales, if you work in, you know, Anything you will get this training in how to respond to trauma on the job. Because the reality is we never know when these issues are gonna arise and who is gonna be the one who picks up that phone call from somebody in crisis.

[00:07:41] Katharine: So you really want everybody to have the basics of how to navigate that conversation. And let me be clear, the goal here is not to turn people into therapists at all. That's not appropriate. You shouldn't be the therapist for your colleagues. The really what I want is for people to have what I think of as like the C P R skills, like you are the one at the scene.

[00:08:01] Katharine: You realize there's a problem, you provide some immediate support, and then you help them get over to the additional more holistic support that they need next.

[00:08:10] Shawna: Yes, and knowing where that holistic support is and even where to send them. I think a lot of organizations don't even know where to send someone and just kind of walk away dazed when something happens.

[00:08:21] Katharine: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:08:22] Shawna: So coming up with that plan with them is a lot of what you end up working with them on.

[00:08:25] Katharine: Yep.

[00:08:26] Shawna: And is your book more intended for leadership or is it for anyone to read?

[00:08:31] Katharine: It's really for anybody. And the goal is that you should walk away with the practical skills to be able to handle that conversation with somebody in crisis whenever it happens.

[00:08:41] Katharine: It could be at work, it could be on the bus, it could be at the dog park. You know, you never know when somebody is gonna open up to you about something difficult that they're struggling with. And like you said, you know, You can have that freeze moment where you think somebody says something to you and think, oh my gosh, I can't believe you just said that.

[00:08:58] Katharine: Can we just rewind and pretend that never happened? Like, is there any, is there somebody else that can call in here? You know, um, yes. It, it is really hard and so that's the goal is to make it less scary when that happens cuz you know, okay, I've got this path to follow. I know what I'm supposed to do to get through this in a way that doesn't make it worse and hopefully makes it better.

[00:09:20] Shawna: Yes. Yes. And where you can also take care of yourself and your boundaries and that as well. Cause it sounds like that's something you also work with, is the boundaries piece on that. Is that complicated to work with?

[00:09:29] Katharine: It can be, you know what I have found is there are people who are naturally givers and caretakers, and sometimes that can, you can run into problems with that because you can see somebody in pain and you start to almost take over for them.

[00:09:47] Katharine: You know, like not just, I'm gonna give you the recommendation for the therapist, but why don't I set up that first appointment for you. I know you've got so much going on and here I'll just drive you to it and I'll sit outside until you're done. And then you know, we can debrief in the car ride home. And you're doing all that because you're very caring and that's great.

[00:10:03] Katharine: But it might be that for this person, therapy is not where they're at right now. They're just not ready. And when you do that kind of taking over for them, it can. One, make them feel more guilty that they're not doing what you think they should. And also it can actually damage your relationship with them.

[00:10:20] Katharine: You know, you're trying to build the relationship and be supportive, but now they feel guilty every time they see you because they didn't stick with the therapy or whatever it is that you recommended. It's really important when we are working with people in trauma that we understand that they have their own path to walk and we can't walk it for them.

[00:10:37] Katharine: And honestly, we can't even really see the path. They're the only ones who can do this, who can walk this path for themselves. So what we can do is just give them some tools, some help along the way. A great place to start is always, what do you need? How can I help you? And then listen to them and try to provide the support that they're asking for.

[00:10:56] Katharine: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:58] Shawna: And understand what that is. That is great. And our organization's really receptive you think, to understanding what they can do and providing that when you work with them.

[00:11:06] Katharine: Yeah, I've worked with some really incredible organizations. I think so many organizations have just seen over the last few years the mental health challenges in their workforce.

[00:11:17] Katharine: They're seeing a lot of turnover. A lot of people who are still really struggling engagement levels are at like all time lows right now. And I think it's. Burnout. People are just so tired having come through these last few years. So companies are eager to try to find ways to support their teams right now and giving them a little bit of understanding of how to do this work with the recognition that, again, we're not trying to turn you into a therapist, we just wanna give you some tools to support your team. People are often really grateful for that.

[00:11:46] Shawna: That's incredible. That's important work. It definitely makes a difference. With doing this work with organizations, do you feel that it's enough to help with burnout? Is this training what's gonna help to turn around or do people need more around burnout?

[00:12:00] Katharine: Yeah, I mean, there are different things that we work on. So we do the one-on-one conversation and we talk about boundary setting and self-care through that. But I also do some work around what kinds of resources are available in the organization. So we'll talk about different types of supports that people might need, making sure that people know where to get help when they need it.

[00:12:20] Katharine: But in addition, there are things around your organizational culture. Do you have an open and transparent culture where people feel comfortable to say, I'm having a hard time right now, or I think I made a mistake, I'm not sure what I'm doing. Do you have that ability to create the environment where people feel comfortable opening up about that stuff?

[00:12:38] Katharine: And then what are you doing to make sure that you're living your values? So if you say, for instance, we have a culture of care here, but you're ignoring the screamer down the hall, then you actually don't have a culture of care and everybody knows it. I've heard it said that your workplace culture is defined by the most toxic behavior you tolerate.

[00:12:58] Shawna: Ooh, I love that. I love that your workplace culture is defined by the most toxic behavior that you tolerate. And so it's not what you say and write on the walls or what you profess is actually what you tolerate. And so your response to that is actually what's important. And that's really key cuz I feel like there's a lot of really good intention people that.

[00:13:18] Shawna: Don't know how to respond to toxic behavior and to those things, cuz they're very non-confrontational and so then they don't understand the true messages that they're getting across. So I think that's a really important way to look at it. That's very powerful.

[00:13:31] Katharine: Yeah, it's really hard. I think so many of us try to avoid uncomfortable conversations.

[00:13:37] Katharine: You know, what if the person yells, what if they cry? We have to be willing to have those hard conversations, whether it's with somebody who's in grief or somebody who's really angry, or somebody who's behavior is unacceptable. We all have to get better at having those difficult conversations.

[00:13:53] Shawna: Yes, exactly. And having a safe place to have those conversations. Cause I think that that's a real challenge. And I've worked at organizations where sometimes HR is part of the problem, and that's where you're supposed to go to have those conversations. And what do you do when HR is part of the problem if that's where you're supposed to be having those conversations.

[00:14:12] Shawna: If you go to them I have this policy you have, tell me more about it. How can I utilize this? And they don't know about it, they don't support it. They're not helpful in that way, and then you have nowhere else to go and that's how they lose good employees and continue to perpetuate those challenging cultures.

[00:14:26] Shawna: So it's valuable to have someone from the outside like you to kinda support that.

[00:14:30] Katharine: Yeah, thank you. You know, it's really important the ways that we support each other during those hard times, and I think it can be a difficult position that HR is in. You know, often they don't have the authority to provide what it is that the person is asking for, or they're concerned they don't have the backup from the leadership if they did take action.

[00:14:48] Katharine: So I think sometimes they're put in a kind of impossible situation. But I think whenever we go to anybody in the organization, it's important to understand that. Each person represents the organization as a whole. So even if it's your coworker that you say, Hey, I think that, you know, I'm experiencing bias, for instance, and their response is dismissive or implies that it's your fault, that's something that will stay with you and will make it much less likely that you will come forward and talk to anybody else about it.

[00:15:18] Katharine: So I think it's really important that everybody understand how best to support people who are coming to them in crisis. Again, regardless of your role, you never know who's gonna get that phone call. Mm-hmm.

[00:15:31] Shawna: Yeah. That's very valuable. It's very important.

[00:15:34] Shawna: Do you have any examples of some great changes that have happened in organizations that you've worked with?

[00:15:39] Katharine: Yeah, in the trainings that I do, it's been really rewarding to see some of the comments that people have gotten. Like, I'm so proud to work in an organization that is thinking about this kind of work. We've seen real shifts in the ways that people are talking to one another. I just got a text message the other day from somebody that I did a training for six months ago, and she said, I just have to tell you, I feel like our psychological safety and our organization is so much greater because of the work that we did with you.

[00:16:05] Katharine: So it's been really rewarding.

[00:16:07] Shawna: Yes, exactly. That's very exciting. So can we touch on what the five steps are that you kind of encourage people to look at in your book?

[00:16:17] Katharine: Absolutely. So the five steps are listen, acknowledge, share, empower, and return. The acronym is laser and I have an acronym in part because I worked in government so long.

[00:16:30] Katharine: I just think in acronyms now, but also cuz I know when you have that. Freeze moment and you don't know what to say, it's helpful to have something to follow. So the first step, listen, I like to say that active listening is more than just being quiet. It's creating the circumstances where the person feels comfortable opening up.

[00:16:48] Katharine: So you know, you're nodding, you're asking questions, you're, you know, encouraging them to go on, letting them know you actually do wanna hear what they're saying. Watch your body language, make sure you're facing them, all of that stuff. And then the next step is acknowledge and. That one is the step that I think is most often skipped.

[00:17:08] Katharine: And when a conversation seems like it's kind of going off the rails, it's usually because the person needs more acknowledgement. And acknowledgement is just letting them know that you heard them. So they finish talking, and then you may be thinking, oh, I know exactly who you need to talk to, but you need to do, I have, you know, all this great advice for you.

[00:17:25] Katharine: And that's all fantastic and maybe do that later. But first, just let them know you heard them and it's really simple. Just say, thanks for telling me that. Or I'm really sorry about everything you've been going through, or that sounds really hard or scary or awful, or whatever it sounds to you. Just that little sentence I feel like is the fulcrum of the whole conversation because if they feel heard, they're much more able to hear everything that you say going forward.

[00:17:53] Katharine: So that's that second step. Then after that, that's where you can start sharing information. So the information you could share could be anything about the incident itself. Like if it's an issue of workplace violence, everybody's gonna wanna know what happened. So you share what information you can. You can also share process information, like here's where you go to file a complaint, that kind of thing.

[00:18:14] Katharine: So sharing information back to them. And then after that is Empower, and this is really where we get into some of the boundary setting, recognizing that your role is to empower them not to take over for them. This is their path to walk, but you can give them a few tools along the way, and those can be things like, here's where to find our mental health resources, or you can call the security desk.

[00:18:36] Katharine: Here's how to find them. I hope everybody knows about 9 88 here in the US as the National Mental Health Crisis and Suicide Lifeline. It's free, it's confidential. It's available 24 7.

[00:18:48] Shawna: Oh wow. Yeah, I did not know about that. We're gonna put that into the show notes. So 9 88 is that number That's very important.

[00:18:57] Katharine: Yeah, it just launched, uh, last summer and it's fantastic. So you can call or text 24 hours a day and they're great. For you to give to somebody who's in crisis, but also, frankly, when you're trying to support somebody, it's helpful cuz sometimes you'll think, I don't know if I handled that well, is there something else I should have done?

[00:19:15] Katharine: And you can call them and get some advice and they can give you some really good tips on what you can do to take care of the other person and also to take care of yourself as you're supporting them. So that was the empower step. The last one is return, and that is both a literal return to the person to check in on them later, let them know that you're still there for them and see if they need anything else from you.

[00:19:37] Katharine: But it's also importantly, a return to ourselves. Recognizing that supporting others takes a toll on us, and we have to do what we can to be taking care of ourselves or else we're not gonna be very much used for the world around us. Who needs us anyway.

[00:19:52] Shawna: That's wonderful. That 9 88 is wonderful. So we do have some international listeners, but that's for the United States that works everywhere. Cause I've never heard of that. That's so valuable.

[00:20:02] Katharine: Yeah, it's fantastic. It was something that was in the works for many, many years and last summer it got up and running. I'm, I was thrilled to see it.

[00:20:10] Shawna: 9 88. That's an important thing for folks to remember, and you don't have to be in crisis yourself.

[00:20:16] Shawna: If you need to process, you've helped somebody else. It's also a number that you can call to be able to get the supports around anything with mental health or suicide or going through trauma type of situations.

[00:20:26] Katharine: Exactly, exactly.

[00:20:28] Shawna: Thank you. That's very valuable. Sure. So the laser process that is wonderful and it's nice and succinct and I think what you mentioned about that acknowledgement piece is something that we all forget cuz we're so busy getting to that.

[00:20:42] Shawna: How can I respond instead of how can I make sure they feel heard piece of it. So that's really important that A is very important.

[00:20:51] Katharine: It is. Yeah. And it is one that I think often gets skipped because we're so used to problem solve or reframe or you know, we just wanna get right to solutions. But it's so important that we just take that second to let them know that we heard them.

[00:21:05] Katharine: It's funny, I've seen this, and maybe you will see it as well, the person finishes talking and they're a little bit tense because they've just now shared something and they're not sure how you're gonna respond. And when you say, Thanks so much for telling me that like their shoulders will drop.

[00:21:19] Katharine: There will just be this kind of relief, like, oh, thank goodness, like I've opened up to this person and she's going to be caring and respectful of me.

[00:21:28] Shawna: Yes. And I think I've noticed that when I have a family member who's telling me a story and they keep going with a story, but it's because I haven't done that acknowledged step.

[00:21:37] Shawna: And it can be even simpler stuff. Not even just trauma things, but when they have something going on and they keep going with a story, it's cuz I haven't let them know that I've heard them and I have the information and that it's there. And once I do acknowledge and. Either repeat back some of the information or make sure that I let them know that I heard what they've said and then they can stop and with kids a lot too.

[00:21:56] Shawna: Clues me back in that I maybe didn't do it. Acknowledging cuz they keep going with the story and I was like, oh, I didn't let them know that. Yes, I did hear, I did take in that information. So yes.

[00:22:05] Katharine: Yeah, that's one of my favorite active listening techniques is looping, where you just say back a few of the words that they just said to you because it's like you said,

[00:22:16] Katharine: it's really validating for them and it it shows them like you were literally demonstrating that you heard them because you wouldn't be able to repeat it back if you didn't.

[00:22:24] Shawna: Yes,

[00:22:24] Shawna: exactly. It's an important piece of that skill. That's very helpful.

[00:22:28] Shawna: I love that you made an acronym, so years in government, did you well. Trained you well for that.

[00:22:33] Katharine: Totally,

[00:22:35] Shawna: And so with that boundary setting, I think it's an important piece. Too. I know that I was trained with child welfare work when I was an undergrad, and I still remember the first time I was at court and there was a young girl who was having a difficult situation with her mother's boyfriend and that he was not in the home, so she went back to the home, but she was very scared about him returning and I just wanted to take her home with me.

[00:22:56] Shawna: I was in my early twenties. I just didn't want her to be in this situation anymore. And all we could do was problem solve the closest phone and what windows she could climb out, of or how she'd get outta the house if he was ever there and whatever else to get to safety and who to call and how to do that was what we could do for her.

[00:23:08] Shawna: But I was the same as you. I just wanna take her home with me. And so to be able to have those boundaries, cuz you can't, you can't save everyone and can't take everyone home with you. And You have to give them the tools and do that piece for them, but to have those boundaries for yourself and to be able to use that technique to have a way to give them the resource.

[00:23:24] Shawna: And the 9 88 resource is a great resource you could give to somebody on a bus or at the dog park as well.

[00:23:30] Katharine: Yeah, I think that boundary setting can be so difficult because you know, if you're a caring person, you see somebody in pain, you just wanna take that pain away from them, and it's really hard to recognize that.

[00:23:42] Katharine: The solution that you come up with might not be the right solution for them, at least right now. And you have to give them time to get to the right answer for them. You know, I spoke with a woman once, so Wise, and she had done a lot of work with women who were leaving incarceration and she was a caseworker.

[00:24:01] Katharine: And so she would help them set up, you know, where they were gonna live and their life plan for reentry. And for a lot of them, they wanted to get. A job or they wanted to be reunited with their children, and then a lot of them weren't able to fulfill what it is that they wanted. And she said the only way that she was able to keep doing the work was she started to have a recognition that her role was to give the resources, but let go of the outcome.

[00:24:27] Katharine: That she couldn't get overly invested in a certain outcome, that this mother is gonna be reunited with her kids, or she's gonna stay off drugs. All she could do was give them the tools and let them take their next steps themselves. I mean, one of the things that I saw in working with crime victims for so many years is that the way the person is right now in front of you is not where they're gonna be in six weeks, or six months or six years.

[00:24:50] Katharine: You know, they have a whole long path and journey, and over the years, the things that victims have been able to do are just incredible. I mean, they pass laws and start foundations and make beautiful pieces of artwork. If we try to jump into early, we can short circuit what is the right path for them. So we just have to learn to let go a little bit.

[00:25:11] Katharine: Just give them what it is that they're needing in this immediate and what we are able to provide, and then trust that they will find the right answers for themselves.

[00:25:20] Shawna: Mm-hmm. And trust that they know what the right path is for themselves and that they will find it in time. So that's amazing. And you do a lot around self-care as well, is that right?

[00:25:33] Katharine: I do. Yeah. It was something that was not originally part of my work, but everybody kept asking for it and it's an important piece of the work that I do around laser. But now I do separate sessions just on burnout and resilience. I think so many people are so burned out right now after these last few years.

[00:25:50] Katharine: So I do some work with organizations specifically on that piece. That's, you know, what are we doing to take care of ourselves?

[00:25:57] Shawna: That's actually one of our segments that we do each week on The, Grit. Show, is we actually have each of our guests share with us about self-care, and I'm actually going to eventually change it.

[00:26:08] Shawna: I need to have a quippy way of saying it. So right now it's a self-care spotlight, but I've decided that it's not actually self-care, it's actually life maintenance and that we need to have a way of framing it instead of making it sound like something soft. That is actually what we need to maintain ourselves.

[00:26:24] Shawna: And if you have a family, it's family maintenance. Cuz if I don't do this, then I can't be part of this family and help support and be a member of this family. So what do you do? That's what we do, is we share examples of what they do, take care of themselves as part of this reminder and conversation of examples of ways that people care for themselves.

[00:26:40] Shawna: So what do you do to take care of yourself or to maintain yourself?

[00:26:43] Katharine: I like to have what I call a daily reset, which is a time period every day where I am just doing the daily maintenance, right? Like the self-care piece of it. So for me, that's a little bit of yoga and a little bit of meditation every morning.

[00:26:57] Katharine: So that is like my half, half, two. I do that every day. In addition, I have. Really wonderful friends who I keep up with who are all over the country. We do text messages and the quick phone calls, sometimes a two hour phone call on a Saturday morning. Another thing that I've started doing with two of my closest friends is Marco Polos.

[00:27:17] Katharine: Do you know what that is?

[00:27:18] Shawna: Oh, one of my friends. Does those? Yes. Yes. The messaging,

[00:27:22] Katharine: yes. Yeah, it's like a little app where you create a closed group. So it's just the three of us and you record short video messages for each other and it's really nice, you know? So I'll get a quick check-in with a friend, like while she's on her commute, and I'll say, oh, that's a really cute new haircut she's got.

[00:27:38] Katharine: You know, it's just a nice way of staying in closer touch. To me, that community is so important. And then the other thing for me is writing. Writing has always been really healing for me, so I do a little bit of writing most days.

[00:27:53] Shawna: Oh, that's wonderful. That's great. And then as a thank you for the time you spent sharing with all of us and being here with us, we actually give each of our guests a copy of one of our coloring books.

[00:28:03] Shawna: We have two of them. One of them is Vintage Mermaid, a Magnificent Ocean, and the other one is the, you've Got this, which is inspirational quotes. So which of those two can we send to you as a thank you for being with us today?

[00:28:16] Katharine: That is so incredibly kind and I am not an artist at all, but I do love coloring books.

[00:28:22] Katharine: Perfect. That works. That is so great. I also love the ocean and mermaids and everything ocean related, so that is the one for me.

[00:28:31] Shawna: All right, well we will definitely send you a copy of that. That's perfect then. Thank you. Wonderful. And then the other thing that we do each. SH time on our shows, we actually make sure we have something really practical and applicable that people can just walk away with and apply to their life immediately.

[00:28:46] Shawna: And we call it our Grit wet. So is there something that you can think of that people should kind of take away with and apply for them to walk away with today?

[00:28:55] Katharine: If it's all right, I'm gonna tell a story. Yes. That has a good takeaway in it. I was doing a training one time and I have a slide up that's about boundary setting, and I say, who here thinks they have good boundaries?

[00:29:07] Katharine: And I, I always do it as like a laugh line because I. Nobody thinks they have good boundaries. And this woman was like, oh, I do, I have really good boundaries. And I said, how? Like, how do you do that? And she said, in her family, it is very normal that, for instance, if she calls her sister and says, you would not believe the day I had like, just listen to this.

[00:29:27] Katharine: It would be very normal for her sister to say to her, hang on, hang on. I'm at a 10 right now. If I am the last person on your list, I can give you about 15 minutes, but if you have anybody else that you could reach out to, I think you should probably call them first. Nice.

[00:29:43] Shawna: Isn't that amazing? Yes,

[00:29:45] Katharine: yes. I love that and I love every bit of it.

[00:29:48] Katharine: I love that they have a shorthand way of saying, you know, I'm kind of at my wit's end right now. I don't have much to give. I love that. It doesn't require a lot of explanation. I don't have to, you know, flash my credentials of all this stuff on my desk to justify the fact that I can't talk right now. And also, no blame on the other side.

[00:30:07] Katharine: It's not the sister's fault for calling and needing some help. It's really fine that she needs help. It's just I'm not the one today. And then finally, I love that little bit of grace in it that if there's nobody else, I can give you 15 minutes. You know, that just clarity and the grace in that I think is so wonderful.

[00:30:22] Katharine: So I guess my advice would be try to come up with a shorthand way. Of talking about where you are in terms of your stress level, your burnout, you know, it could be something like, I'm at a 10 today, or it could be, you know, red, yellow, green. Just come up with some sort of easy way to talk about it to yourself and to others, because I think part of the importance of taking care of ourselves, one of the most baseline levels is recognizing where we are.

[00:30:48] Katharine: And a lot of us don't even check in to see that we're stressed. So just come up with an easy way to think about it and talk about it with others. No,

[00:30:57] Shawna: that's wonderful. I really like that because I tend to be somebody who does draw boundaries a lot. And one of the hardest parts about being that person is how much I offend other people when I draw boundaries.

[00:31:10] Shawna: Because I was actually supposed to go visit, uh, friends on a way, on a trip, and when I contacted them, they're like, Oh, I have guests that stayed longer than they were supposed to. They're still here, but I still have room for you, et cetera, et cetera. And I was like, I can't, like we had these plans and I still have to do work and I can't do work when there's other people at your house and I don't blame you.

[00:31:32] Shawna: They're still there. I totally understand, but I can't come like, cuz that's my boundary that I need, cuz I have this work to get done. I know my mother would've still gone to their house and been frustrated and upset the whole time and had a terrible time. But still shown up cuz she said she was going, whereas I'm like, no, I need to go home cuz I still have work and I can't do this if other people are there. I'm not upset with them at all. I totally understand the situation they were in, but that's my boundary. But then that person felt totally horrible that I didn't come.

[00:31:59] Shawna: I'm like, I'm okay with it. I just had to have my, I had to protect my work and I had to protect my stuff. So, and that's a hard thing, right? So once you start doing your boundaries, then other people get, Upset and hurt because you're having boundaries. And my mother was the one, she would just be miserable just so other people wouldn't be miserable.

[00:32:18] Shawna: Whereas I'm like, ah, gotta take care of me. So that's the hard thing is, is doing that right. You risk being the person saying, I'm at a 10 and the other person getting very like, yeah, push outta shape about it. And so it is, that's I think I need to start with asking every time I call, where are you at?

[00:32:34] Shawna: Let me tell you where I'm at. And so that we can normalize it before we ever need to use the, so I can't listen right now cuz this is where I'm at. yeah, that's a hard thing. Cause I do tend to be somebody with boundaries and I probably have friends that will tell you that they've been miffed by me and my boundaries.

[00:32:47] Katharine: Yeah, it's a's a good idea.

[00:32:49] Shawna: I need them.

[00:32:50] Katharine: I mean, yeah, you have to let go of the other person's response. Like that's not your responsibility. Your responsibility is to be open and honest and clear and fair, you know?

[00:33:00] Shawna: Yes. That's all you can do. And to understand that that's a good thing and it gives you permission to also have boundaries and to do that. So hopefully, People take it as modeling, that's okay for them. Oh, that's excellent. Love them to have boundaries too. And they can do the same to me. And it's okay for them to not be able to come and to not show up because I've changed the circumstances too, and it's okay. And I still love them.

[00:33:22] Katharine: Yeah, exactly. And we will see each other again another time.

[00:33:27] Shawna: Yes I love that person shared the rating and you're like, oh, that is, she's like, wow.

[00:33:34] Katharine: So impressed.

[00:33:35] Shawna: Yes. . It makes you want to do that with everyone. Now, with the kids that come to my house, what number are you at? Where are you at today?

[00:33:42] Shawna: Let's check in. Let's normalize that. We're all at different places and we can only take on so much, right? Exactly. Yes. So everyone, that's your Grit wit for today is that you can start sharing with people where you're at and that you can't take on anymore. But I love the added piece too of, but if I'm the last person on your list, I'm still there for you.

[00:34:01] Shawna: Mm-hmm. Because that's definitely, there's so many people that I feel that way about. Is there anything else that we didn't cover that you wanted to check in about?

[00:34:08] Katharine: I don't think so. I do have a text list if people are interested. I send texts out on Thursdays that are all about empathy and leadership and resilience. Oh, that's wonderful. So if anybody wants those, they go out about noon eastern every Thursday. And if you wanna join, you just text the word blackbird to 8 3 3 9 7 5 1 9 4 5.

[00:34:28] Katharine: That's 8 3 3 9 7 5 1 9 4 5. The word blackbird, and I'll start sending you nice messages about breathing techniques and showing up for each other and taking care of ourselves.

[00:34:39] Shawna: That's great, and we will totally have that in the show notes as well. So if you didn't memorize that number, you can just go there and we'll also have the link for your book so people can find your book, and then also what is the best way to find you. You're on Instagram, correct?

[00:34:52] Katharine: I'm on Instagram and Facebook, both as at Empathetic Workplace, and I'm also on LinkedIn, just Katharine Manning, so you can find me on all the socials.

[00:35:00] Katharine: I try to stay pretty consistent about it, but it's always perfect. Always a challenge, but I try.

[00:35:08] Shawna: Yes, exactly. Well, again, boundaries. You're allowed to have boundaries around that sometimes too, so that works. Thank you. This was so valuable and I think the LASER is something we're all gonna take away with us as well and definitely have the book to look at to have even more insight around that.

[00:35:23] Katharine: Aw, thank you so much. This has been so fun.

[00:35:25] Shawna: Thank you.

[00:35:26] Shawna: Thanks again for being here. It's so great to spend this time with all of you. I just wanted to take a minute and read to you some of the fantastic reviews that folks have been leaving us online. Again, if you're on Spotify, you're able to give us a rating, which we very much appreciate. You're welcome to send us notes about what you think of the show.

[00:35:46] Shawna: You can put reviews on Facebook. We also appreciate that. Or if you go on to Apple Podcasts, they have a place for you to leave reviews there, and I'm gonna read you a couple of those, but I really appreciate them. We have one that says I'm in love with this show. It's funny, witty, encouraging, and educational.

[00:36:06] Shawna: Thank you for that. You have another that says, thank you for sharing your gift. The discussion in love languages is really fun. We use this in our family, even with our eight year old son. That's incredible. That applies so much for kids and I'm glad it's being used in your family. Another one of them's truly fantastic podcast that is sure to gain a ton of momentum.

[00:36:28] Shawna: Every episode is engaging, gritty and full of purposeful guests. That is awesome. Another says, so glad I found this show. Super helpful topics. Thank you so much for taking the time to leave your words. We appreciate it. We love hearing from you, and we appreciate the support. A lot of love and effort goes into this and it's nice to get feedback that you guys are enjoying it.

[00:36:49] Shawna: So take a moment, send us a DM or put a post up for us on one of those outlets. We love to hear from you. I hope your week continues to go wonderfully. And in case no one has told you lately, you're the only one of you that this world has got. And that means something.