This transcription is provided by artificial intelligence. We believe in technology but understand that even the smartest robots can sometimes get speech recognition wrong.

Flourish: Leading with Empathy - How to Work with Jerks in Healthcare IT featuring Eric Williamson

[00:00:00]

Sarah Richardson: I'm Sarah Richardson, a principal here at this week Health where our mission is healthcare transformation powered by community. Welcome to Flourish, where we share the human stories behind healthcare leadership because thriving people build thriving systems.

Let's begin

Welcome to Flourish, the podcast that explores bold journeys, brave pivots, and the art of building a career that feels both authentic and impactful.. Today's guest is Eric Williamson, international keynote speaker, executive coach, and author of the Eye opening book. How to work with jerks that I did a review of a couple months ago and it got massive traction, so I'm so excited we get to have this conversation in person known for blending, humor, storytelling, and practical wisdom.

Eric helps leaders transform difficult workplace dynamics into opportunities for growth, empathy, and connection. Eric went from being what he calls an expert jerk to becoming a jerk expert, showing us all how to assess, analyze, and act with empathy, especially [00:01:00] in high pressure hybrid work environments shaped by media, politics, and social change.

Eric, welcome to the show,

Eric Williamson: Sarah. So good to be with you again. Oh, thanks for having me.

Sarah Richardson: I'm so happy to have you here because you were just on stage at SOAR a couple of weeks ago, and the momentum from having those conversations and those perspectives, I was like, we gotta tell this story more than just the book review.

So what I love is you said you went from expert jerk to jerk expert. You gave so many great stories about that. What sparked that transformation and what did you learn about yourself in the process?

Eric Williamson: Yeah, it, it wasn't easy. It's one of those things where you kind of wish you didn't have to go down that road, but then once you do, , you're grateful for it.

And it happened with me when I became that jerk. I didn't realize I was acting like that jerk until I almost lost my job. And basically what happened was when I graduated from [00:02:00] college, I thought I had everything together. I had all confidence, all this confidence in the world. I graduated with honors and I thought that my success in school was gonna translate into success in the real world.

You're, you're taught to study hard, get good grades, and you independently earn these grades. You don't really, it is not like you're working with somebody else. So, when I went to work, I kind of thought that was the same thing I was supposed to produce and. I almost lost my job because I isolated myself.

I was, um, way too cocky, way too arrogant. And I just thought I had it all together. And it wasn't until my boss, he, uh, he made things get real for me real quick, he confronted me and he said, you're not performing, and, and he was like, look, if you don't turn things around.

You're gonna lose your job. I'm gonna, I'm gonna fire you. So that was one instance. But I also had my other experience being, working with a jerk. And my [00:03:00] boss, she was one heck of a jerk. And, um, I saw all these things, how culture was eroding and people were quitting, all these things were happening.

And I was like, why? Why? Like, people were leaving the job left and right, and she humiliated me in front of my execs. Once I started noticing all these symptoms, I was like, I can't work with someone like this. And it was like extremely difficult. And thankfully, she got what was, what happened to her, she was shown the door.

But I realized that it, that when people are like that, when people leave because of other people. It really inspired me to wanna learn why jerks rise, why they fall, what organizations can do differently. So when I took that experience along with working, being a jerk, it really helped me understand, these kind of workplace behaviors and what you can do differently.

Sarah Richardson: And it's truly more important than ever. Although I, I, it was so funny when, during your keynote, all of us there, like we were the 20 somethings senior who graduated and we're like, we got this. We are the best [00:04:00] employees ever. And then you do run up against those bosses, whether the ones who are willing to tell you the truth or the ones who are really hard to work with.

Those are the skills you learn in school, those things you learn in corporations and how important it's, especially today because I'm curious, why do you believe your message. Resonates so strongly now, especially given the state of workplace culture.

Eric Williamson: Yeah, well, I mean, there's just so many things that's going on right now.

I mean, we know what's going on in the news. I try my best to stay away from the news. But even in the workplace, all right, with AI disruption, with reorgs, mergers, all these things go that are going on, it's widen the gap between different people at work, whether you represent business, it, any other department is widen the gap.

And so when people. When they are in those silos, what happens is trust breaks because people are just, they're, they're just protecting their own turf. And when that happens, when people are in those silos that grows. Innovation [00:05:00] stalls, and you can't get anything done. And so I think it's important that people need to understand that you have to be able to build relationships with people to get anything done.

And once you understand someone else's perspective, that's where the magic happens. That's where you're able to take those perspectives and inform your own decision and your own thought process about. What to do and it's a refreshing, it's a refreshing thing because once people understand that you don't need to be in those silos, you don't need to, just because you've got all these other things going on, mergers of reorgs, it doesn't replace the fact that you can still be human.

You can still have that connection

Sarah Richardson: You can still be nice, even, you can, even if the stakes are tough and the stakes are high. And in your book you talk about how to spot jerk behavior. What are some of the red flags that from leaders and employees they need to be looking for? What are the things they should be looking out for?

Because you may not realize that it's, it could be pattern behavior.

Eric Williamson: Yeah, I think this is a really big [00:06:00] deal here. Sarah because one thing, and I mentioned this, this in the keynote at SOAR too, is that one misconception is that we think that jerk behavior is very obvious, but nowadays, jerk behavior, it's not loud or obvious, they're the ones that can keep you from key meetings. They can block you from opportunities without even bringing up your name. They can question your credibility behind closed doors. All these things happen behind the scenes. Sometimes it's the person who's smiling in meetings but sabotaging you, um, remotely, via Slack or something like that.

And those are the ones that you have to watch. So. Some of the patterns that I look for is someone willing to take responsibility? If they never take responsibility for any of their actions, it's always someone else's fault. They're the ones to blame or someone who tries to take your idea. Something like that.

Those are the ones who you have to watch out for the passive aggressive behavior. The people who are, who just say, oh, well, I was just kidding. No. And [00:07:00] then they go back and do the same thing. Those are the things that you have to watch out for, because nowadays it's not always direct. It's not always in your face.

It's the passive aggressive behavior. Like I said before, it's the ones that, that smile on your face, but do something behind your back, and that's what you have to look out for. And those kind of people, they're the ones who don't take responsibility. They try to take credit for your work. All right?

And they try to. They try to they, they try to do those things to, to gaslight you sometimes or to make it do something that you, that you're not prepared for. Because it's not direct, it's not in your face all the

Sarah Richardson: How do you. Plan for that in an interview, or how do you figure that out potentially before you join an organization?

Because there's all the questions that we ask in interviews. We get asked a lot of questions. I tell people, Eric, when you're interviewing for a job, you're interviewing them. I mean, yes, they want your skillset, et cetera but flip that script and be confident doing that because there's things you need to know about an organization before you get there.

You can't just. Outright say, Hey, how many jerks do you have on [00:08:00] staff? But I'm curious, like what would you recommend as a couple of questions to be able to ask in an interview to get a sense of, is this a toxic culture? Or, is this something I can mitigate through? Because it's just a lot of personalities in one

Eric Williamson: Right. Yeah, that is an excellent question. I totally agree with you. You definitely are the one interviewing the interview panel. You have to flip the script, especially when you're in an interview. And some of the things that I do, that I recommend especially tech leaders who are interviewing for jobs, they wanna know what the culture is like.

I highly recommend you ask questions such as this, what does success look like for you in, the next, 30 days, what you know what, what are your expectations for me? What is a, what is a busy what. What does a busy environment look like? When you're asking these kind of questions, you're really asking soliciting questions about what the culture is like, how people perform under pressure.

When you ask questions such as, what is your what is your thought process of, of success [00:09:00] look like when you're asking them those questions? Now they're the ones that's gotta ask the, think about, well. What are you looking for? You know what's, they have to come up with an honest response.

They can't just, sugarcoat it. They can't just tell you what you want to hear because you're soliciting questions that really make them have to answer what that culture is like, what it's gonna look like working with you directly.

Sarah Richardson: And listening for the types of questions they ask. I used to always ask people, how do you handle ambiguity?

Because I knew the organization that I worked in at the time, literally like changed constantly. It was just the way that things got done. We were a big M and a organization that you touched on earlier. Yeah. And you had to realize like your priorities might change every day. Are you okay with that? And, uh.

People would look at me like, what do you mean? And I'd be like, you're not gonna be a good fit. And so it's that duality and, and researching, is this gonna be a, a good organization? And yet let's just assume, okay, I hired you, you hired me, we have this amazing company. And then there's still humans there running the [00:10:00] shop.

Things aren't great every single day. You have a method, the AAA method, assess and analyze and act. Yes. Walk me through that method because how can leaders practically apply this framework when dealing with difficult people or situations which happen no matter how great your culture is?

Eric Williamson: Yeah. Yeah. So this is, so when I came up with this three step process, assess, analyze, act, I was trying to come up with a simple three step process that people can follow to help them.

Help themselves when they are engaged in a conflict situation. When something's hitting the fan, when they're encountering a jerk, nine times outta 10. We allow our emotions to get the best of us. We react on impulse. We put our foot in our mouth. We do something that we, but that we might regret.

You know that default, that thing that your brain says, don't say this, don't do this. Sometimes it's on autopilot and we forget and we just say that. Thing that we might regret. [00:11:00] And so here's how it works. Three step process. When you're stressed out, when something's hitting the fan, when you're feeling pressure, the first step is to assess what your body's telling you.

So sometimes when we're stressed out, like our heart could beat fast, our palms could get sweaty, we get stutter, all these other, all these things are indicators that your body's under stress. So once you're in tune with that, once you recognize that, then you can go into step two, which is analyze Well, why is your body telling you this?

What are you dealing with right now? Maybe you're sick and tired of working alongside this jerk who's gaslighting you or who's egging you on who, or you. You're not having a good performance review, or maybe you're stuck in traffic. By the time you get to work, you're inundated with meetings and phone calls.

All those are indicators that you know that your body's under stress. So once you're analyzing what's causing that behavior, then you can put those together. That means you can go into step three, which means act, which really means like take a more measured approach. So that thought that, that response that you were going to say that you were gonna tell somebody off, well now, [00:12:00] because you're able to come up with that three step process, assess and analyze.

Now you can say, you know what, I'm not gonna go there. A much more pragmatic, much more thoughtful response that's not gonna come around to bite me later on. I'm not gonna make a bad situation worse. Here's how I'm going to act. And there's so many times it sounds like a simple process, but there's so many times where people, they ignore steps one and two and they go right to step three and they act and they put their foot in their mouth, they say something that they might regret and it makes a bad situation worse regardless of the conflict situation.

And so you see this in all types of areas. Starbucks, I mentioned it during soar, they have something similar. They're called the latte method and they use that to diffuse 10 situations with irate customers. So there's different methods to help people who are in those conflict situations. And you need something quick and easy to follow because we know sometimes when our emotions get the best of us, all fought, all reasoning goes, goes out the door.

So this three step process is a quick, simple method to help you stay measured and avoid those knee-jerk reactions. [00:13:00]

Sarah Richardson: I still wonder how people can get so stressed out over a cup of coffee.

Eric Williamson: Like, come

Sarah Richardson: on.

Eric Williamson: Like

Sarah Richardson: really? Like why is there a lock name method at Starbucks? Like how angry can a customer get over a cup of coffee?

I swear to get, I

Eric Williamson: wanted venti not grande,

Sarah Richardson: I wanted one too much sugar. 'cause they are pretty complicated orders sometimes. I, I, I would, I would, uh, digress so quickly if I totally could on that one. Give us an example though of when you either experienced. Put AAA in action or one one your clients has where the outcome was significantly better because they took those three steps.

Eric Williamson: Yeah. So I was, this is, when I saw this, I was actually thinking about one that happened recently. I was coaching one of my, uh, one of my tech leaders, and she has this star performer who was really like, just steaming the whole team. Like, someone who's got just all the answers and they just dismiss everyone.

And everyone was just getting so fed up with this person. And so what does a tech [00:14:00] leader do? You, you have to check this person. All right? You can't just let this person just. Stay, whatever they want. So she was asking me for help and we started talking about the AAA method. And so what she did was the next time this happened, she was able to pause that frustration.

She wasn't able, she didn't, come out and just blatantly, demonstrate that frustration. She paused it, she managed it. She did analyze the fact that what was going on around, the surrounding factors, that his behavior, how he was, he was feeling threatened, was because there were reorgs going on.

He wanted to make sure that he was seeing, being seen in a better light that, with these reorgs, are you gonna lose your job or you're gonna get RIFed, or you're gonna go to somewhere else. Well, he wanted to demonstrate that value. She recognized that and that she felt that and she knew that he was doing that because he was feeling threatened and he wanted to secure his job regardless of what happened down the road.

And so what she did was because she recognized that. Then she reacted, she said some, she, she met with him in private. She set some clear [00:15:00] boundaries about his behavior and helped coach him through the change and how to come up with a more measured response and how to be able to work more cohesively with the team members and not, try to, steamroll everyone and that everyone has a space.

And so that helped and. After that reorg happened, yes, his job was protected. But his performance continued to soar as well. He was able to adapt to those changes, and she was like, Eric, thank you for that AAA method because, hey, without that. I, I probably would've had a, had a mutiny on my hands, who knows?

Would've happened to my job. But she was able to, to really set the stage and to, and to really help that person shift from being able to be arrogant to being able to be someone who can work together with all types of people without having to steamroll of the folks

Sarah Richardson: you bring up.

Such a great point though, Eric, in that scenario.

Big m and a people are worried about their jobs being eliminated, so they're gonna show up in a way that really [00:16:00] shows their value or their worth to the organization. A little bit of it's about ego, but most of it is fear driven because they're paying mortgage, they've got kids in college pick the scenario.

Everybody has bills to pay, and so that's scenario based understanding of what's happening. That empathy at work that you have emphasized is so important. We've talked we realize we've got social, political, media driven, climate change, in, in our world today. And the thing is, empathy is more important than ever, especially in either a fully remote or hybrid scenario where people think about it.

You and I came outta college ro the roaring twenties, literally like we're unstoppable, but we learned all of our corporate social graces because we were in the office. Yes, and someone said, that is not how you show up, or when you go to this meeting, I want you to observe and write down questions and then come back to me and let's talk about them, because that's how you show up in these different political climates, the corporate politics that happen.

If I hadn't had that training in [00:17:00] person, if I hadn't been the. Shove the whole, foot plus the shoe, my mouth moments shouldn't have said that that time, but if you didn't have bosses and mentors and leaders who are willing to guide you through really maturing through corporate America, how do you do it today?

There's an empathy layer, but how do people learn the best way to have these really personal human interactions, if maybe they're not even seeing each other face to face?

Eric Williamson: that is such a, I don't wanna say it's a difficult thing to reconcile, but I will say that there are some challenges with the hybrid work.

And we've been doing this for a while now, definitely at least five years. And for some folks even earlier than that, but one of the things that I've been seeing, especially in hybrid work, that invisible disengagement, where you've got your camera off during video calls or you're, you're just not asking the right questions.

You're not showing that you're really. At present, you're really in the moment. And so one of the things that I recommend that we do, and whether [00:18:00] you're in person or hybrid, I mean it's, uh, it's one of the, the most effective ways to build that engagement. It's revamping or rethinking the way we do our one-on-ones.

Regardless of whether you're working with, whether it's a, um, a supervisor or manager dynamic with an employee or whether it's team members rethinking the way we do our one-on-ones, because oftentimes when we do one-on-ones, we're doing one-on-ones to ask for status updates on projects and what people are working on.

And, and when we do that, we already know what's going on. Like we've had millions of other meetings. Talking about the same thing, and so what are we doing? We're really checking a box to say, yes, I had this meeting with this person. Yes, they confirmed what's going on with these TPS reports, for lack of better example.

But what we need to be doing during these one-on-ones is start asking these kind of emotionally charged questions that spark period curiosity. So instead of asking questions about what's going on, let's say with those TPS reports, [00:19:00] hey, how about, hey, what's your win for the week? What's draining your energy?

What can I do to be more helpful in your situation? Especially if you're having conflict situations or you're, you're trying to create more synergy with different stakeholders, maybe it and systems, it and business, sometimes they bump heads, there's friction there because they have different priorities.

But when you ask questions such as, Hey, what can I do to help you out? How can I support you? What's draining your energy? What's your win for the week? What are, what's got you frustrated the most about the situation? When you ask these kind of questions, not only do you understand what's going on with the project that you know, that happens by default, but you also are able to connect more with that person.

They'll be much more engaged in the process, in the conversation, and you'll be able to connect more. And once you're able to do that, that's, those are, those are empathy questions that solicit much more engagement, much more interaction with people, and it builds a stronger relationship. So those are the ways that I think that we can do.

A little bit more [00:20:00] interaction and empathizing when we have those kind of hybrid workplaces.

Sarah Richardson: I love building in those thoughtful questions into the one-on-one, whether you have it as a template or otherwise. Last question I always ask my teams was, what do you need most from me right now? And you got to know each other as humans in person or otherwise, because to your point, we had the in-office environment.

Well, heck, we also had teams all over the country and all over the world in some of these companies. And so that was already an established mechanism. And yet. Post pandemic, I feel like the divide got wider and you try that much harder with that much more intentionality perhaps, is what you're sharing about connecting with people and really understanding their human environment.

I don't envy the, when people were trapped at home with, with parents and kids and pets and trying to get their work done and everyone's using all the bandwidth in the house. Thank you for referring to the TPS reports. Uh, one of my favorite. Yeah. And you should come in on Saturday. Yeah. If you add the camera, humor, uh, when it, when it matters, it can be helpful too.

For sure. [00:21:00] Here's a big one though, because people are nervous about giving tough feedback sometimes. Yeah. How do you recommend that a leader can be empathetic without compromising accountability?

Eric Williamson: that's a good question there, because. Here's the deal when it comes to empathy, some people, they have this thought that when you're being empathetic, that you know that it's just so you're being extremely soft, that you're just allowing people to just walk, right over you and you're just, just letting people just do whatever they want.

And that's not it at all. Empathy is. A powerful tool. It's what you can do to move the needle, whether you're trying to, improve someone's performance or improve a product or anything. And so one of the things that you can do to to hold people accountable by using empathy is first do the check-in.

Hey, what's, is there anything I can do to help you out? Because one of the things I've noticed is that. I've noticed that you've been a little off in this area What are [00:22:00] some things that we can do to get you back on track? And when you say, when you're saying that, you're pretty much saying, Hey, I see you.

Mm-hmm. I, see that there's an issue going on. What's up? What can we do to work together? To, to to to course correct, right? Because here's how it's impacting the work that you're doing. You're still holding them accountable 'cause they're still responsible for getting the work done and doing it right, but you're still using empathy to show that you see that person and that you see that things aren't going right.

And so that check-in, that quick check-in helps reinforce the empathy, make sure that, that they're being connected with, that they're being seen, but also holding them accountable, saying, well look. What can we do to get you back on track? Because I really want, I, I, I value you and I want you to succeed, and I'm here to help.

It's as simple as that. I, it's, sometimes when I have these conversations, it seems like, wow, duh, that's the elephant in the room. But you'd be surprised how many times we take this for granted. We get so focused on trying to achieve a goal, or, [00:23:00] or we could feel the pressure as leaders to perform so that our jobs are intact.

But when we miss those steps of just being human. When we miss those steps, that's when all hell breaks loose. Sometimes that's when you have jerks in the workplace. That's how they thrive when we don't hold that accountability. So you can do, you can do both. You can be empathetic and you can hold people accountable by doing those things.

Sarah Richardson: Yep. I'm glad you said it that way because people trust you 'cause they know you're regularly checking in on them. Then when you ask like, Hey, what's going on in your life that's causing you to be late? Miss deadlines not play nice with others. It's not as awkward of a conversation, but for sure you still have to have it.

You have to be comfortable having it. As a leader as well, which is really, really key. So thank you for those tips. But again, when we think about how people create culture and how they connect when there is that hybrid environment, how are you seeing teams engage with one another more effectively?

What are some of the things you [00:24:00] witness that says, Hey, you might be a fully remote work environment, or you might only see each other a couple days a week, but here's how we come together. To still create bonds and relationships and to a degree, friendships. I mean, some of the people you may be closest to at work you've never met in person.

How do you keep fostering that outside of the Zoom room with 20 people or even just the, the project meeting that maybe has four or five participants? What are some of the ways you build a remote culture?

Eric Williamson: Yeah. I think honestly it's how we leverage. And maximize the time that we do have to connect with people.

So sometimes, yeah, we do have project meetings. We maybe have team meetings, we have check-in meetings, all those things. But if we're just keeping it, um, using those meetings to just talk about the work. Then you're missing out on a golden opportunity to connect with people. And so when you leverage these opportunities to meet, when you have these, these, these touch base meetings, maybe they can be, team meetings that, that you're [00:25:00] having with people.

Instead of just talking about the work. Dedicate one time a week where people are actually talking, having real conversations about the things that they're going through in life check-ins about what's going on. And you don't have to be an open book all the time. Some people don't want to divulge all the things that's going on with their family and friends and stuff like that.

But when you are able to have just real conversations about, about anything it, it could be about sports, it could be about, how they're succeeding, in the workplace, some of the challenges that they're having. When you're able to have those kind of conversations with people, that kind of lets people puts their guard down.

When their guard is down and they're able to just be a human for a moment and just have a real frank conversation about here's what's working, here's what's not. Hey, I had a crappy day about, today because of this situation. You have to have those human conversations. And those are intentional connections.

So sometimes, especially in a hybrid environment, people like to be connected in different ways. They like to be interacted with in, [00:26:00] in, in certain ways. And so when you understand people's communication preferences, when you understand, what people like and what they don't, you get to learn more about them.

Now you're not just, you're being intentional about it and you're not, you're not just treating someone you know, like an employee, like a coworker, they're a person. And I think those kind of conversations are, are things that, that open up doors, open up more trust.

Those are things that, especially those are really effective in a hybrid environment. Leveraging the meetings that are there. But having some ground rules, Hey, we're gonna have a meeting, but we're not gonna talk about work. We're, we're gonna have a conversation about Hey, what are some things that are working for you these days?

Those kind of things when you're not talking about project based, when you can just put your head down and you don't have to, you can put your guard down. You don't have to, just, show this, put your guard up where you have to be able to be. You have to be someone that you're, you're just tired of [00:27:00] being, all of a sudden you just wanna put your guard down.

Um, having those kind of conversations, those frank conversations, I think are extremely helpful.

Sarah Richardson: They are. And sometimes it helps when they're ad hoc. Other times they kinda do need to be planned, like, Hey, we're just doing a wellness check-in today. Yeah. Or. Hey, let's just have a little team get together, coffee, whatever that looks like.

I used to always tell people Monday through Thursday, my last organization camera was on, like, you were engaged, you were there. We used to call Fridays with no Zoom, faceless Fridays. I was like. I like the name of that and actually I was okay with it 'cause like you can't see my face. Although honestly, most people I would talk to on Fridays would be like, can you turn your camera on?

'cause it's really weird to talk to my computer and just have a blank screen. Yeah. You gave people the choice of them wanting to be able to do that. So many great perspectives and ideas. Are you ready for speed round, Eric?

Eric Williamson: Let's do it.

Sarah Richardson: Okay. Funniest jerk story you've ever experienced or heard in the workplace.

Eric Williamson: This was actually hard. I was stumped for a minute. And then I had to think about some of the stories that, um, some of my, [00:28:00] um, my coaches that my coaching clients have shared with me. Alright, so look, last year I was working with a, a coaching client and she just, it was the, this was the last straw.

She was like, this person continues to undermine me. And I was like, well. What are some things that you know that, that are happening? And so she was like, I don't know. It's just that passive aggressive behavior. I think they're just come, they're gunning from my job. And I was like, all right, well, let's just continue to monitor it.

So then the next time we met, she was like, alright, I found the blatant action. I was like, well, what happened? This person tried to steal my entire presentation. Tell me more What happened? Not only did the person try to steal the presentation, but when they presented it to the boss, they had the person's name.

On the slide, like the beginning slide and so, so, so the client was like, you see, my name is still on there, so you know, thank you very much for sharing some of the stuff that I did. And so then that person had to adapt at the, they was caught. They were completely caught off guard, called out on it.

It was just one of [00:29:00] those like, oops, my bad. And they had no choice but to admit what happened. And it completely made things awkward. But it was also an opportunity for that person not only to apologize, but check their behavior from then on out.

Sarah Richardson: Those are some of the stories where you say you can't make it up, and then you can't make that up.

It becomes folklore and you're like, and this happened. You're like, how did that even happen? Though, sometimes that getting caught in action is some of the best ways to coach and to grow others because Often, and people will sweep things into the rug. They'll hide things because they don't want to be mostly embarrassed.

I feel like there's a lot of things that happen inside of corporate cultures. Yeah. And yet, to your point, if it's out there, then you just own it and you learn and you are able to move on. But that's a good one. What's a practical step though, that anybody can take to show up better at work, regardless of your environment?

How do you show up as the best version of yourself?

Eric Williamson: Uh, I think one being vulnerable and two being curious. And so you do that by asking a simple question like, Hey, what's one thing [00:30:00] I can do to make working with me easier and listen to that person? That's being vulnerable, that's being curious and it's getting feedback from someone else too.

So that's leaving your ego out, out at the door. And that's one thing I. I go time and time again no matter what, and I always encourage people just to ask that, that kind of question.

Sarah Richardson: For people though that have a level of insecurity in their role, they don't necessarily believe they can ask that question at work.

Like being curious or saying, Hey, tell me more about X, Y, Z, or Show me that they don't wanna know. They don't want people to know that they don't know. How do you approach that? If you're the one listening to this and you're like, oh, I'm kind of embarrassed to say I don't know something.

How do you learn about something you don't know without looking like you don't have the knowledge that maybe you're supposed to have in your role?

Eric Williamson: So that is where the emotional self-awareness comes in So knowing the fact that you are you're that kind of person that you don't wanna admit that that you don't know something, or that you're [00:31:00] weak or that you're incompetent, that right there, once you're able to, to understand that, that is where, that is the kind of person you are, that's when you wanna dig in.

That's when you wanna dig in and ask that kind of question, what can I do to better support you? Like, well, you know what I'm feeling, I'm feeling a little self-conscious. I'm feeling I've got some imposter syndrome because I don't want to demonstrate my weakness. That right there, that's the signal right there, is when you want to ask that question right there.

Because that shows that that's gonna, that's gonna help you understand what you can do to get better. And as a leader. Leaning in like that's what helps build the relationship because yes, it is good to demonstrate strength, but you demonstrate strength when you can admit your weaknesses, and that's one of the things that you should do.

Practice that self-awareness to be brave enough to ask those questions.

Sarah Richardson: Just think when, at least when I was in my twenties and didn't know something, I would write it down and then go ask someone I wasn't embarrassed to ask. But then if you had to research it, you straight up had to like go to the [00:32:00] library

Eric Williamson: nowadays.

But, but you know what, don't I look

Sarah Richardson: it up on your phone and find out the answer, but like back in the day. So I like to say it was a lot harder to go source some of this info now it's at your fingertips. Write it down if you that

Eric Williamson: ChatGPT

Sarah Richardson: Yes. Well, but then you gotta check every once in a while I'll ask it a question just to see if it gets it right.

I know it's wrong. And I'm like, how does, they didn't know how many times before nine or so the Super Bowl. I'm like, how do you not know this information? I like correct my own chat anyway. Who, who's a leader you admire for their ability to navigate difficult personalities?

Eric Williamson: That's a good one there.

There's plenty of leaders out there. I mean, we've got the Brene Browns, those are great. I'm gonna go with my wife. She deals with a lot when I'm traveling, when I'm on the road and stuff hits the fans when our family and with work and she's balancing out, she leads with the heart, but at the same time, she's patient, she's pragmatic. She puts up with a lot of my BS sometimes sometimes maybe all the time. But she deals [00:33:00] with a lot. She does it with grace. Um, no matter how many times I, I make a mistake, she she will, she'll remind me of it, but she's good at giving people grace and, um, when she deals with people at work, she does the same thing.

And so I admire that about her. So that's what I'm gonna go with.

Sarah Richardson: I love that you said that because let's be honest, like when we have jobs, we're on the road a lot. We have a lot of demands who's ever managing, helping us manage home? Ha has a tremendous amount of responsibility. And they too, to your point, they have careers, they have responsibilities.

And thank you for mentioning her and a thank you to her for being able to make sure that you are not a jerk. When you show up in, in your environments as well. It's like reinforcing, reinforcing what you stand for and, uh. Tell us though, Eric, in one word, what does empathy mean to you?

Eric Williamson: I'm gonna go with power. Empathy means power. People, they, they look at it as a soft skill. They and soft skills. It just gets such a bad name, maybe because it's called, the word [00:34:00] soft in it. But that's how you connect. That's how you drive change. That's how you build relationships.

That's how you manage conflict. And that's exactly how you work with jerks. You do it through empathy. And empathy is power.

Sarah Richardson: And power for good, which I love Absolutely as well. So much wisdom and everything you have shared today and so much fun. One of the things I love about your platform is that you take something that's very tough for people to admit, recognize, or even want to deal with, and to a degree you make it fun.

Hey, how do you turn this into a constant way that we behave more positively around one another? Versus having me something that's painful every time we see it and hear it, even when we sometimes show up that way. I bet all of us could admit times we've been a jerk, maybe even this week. So if you're listening to this and, uh, either side is resonating, pick up literally a copy of this book.

I love it. You can read it on an airplane ride. And also just flip through for different pieces and parts. So Eric, thank you again for being on the show.

Eric Williamson: Sarah, thanks so much for having me. I had a blast. I always love working with [00:35:00] you and talking to you, so thanks for having me on.

Sarah Richardson: Of course. And Eric Williamson's story reminds us that difficult people don't have to derail our careers or even our culture by learning to assess, analyze, and act.

With empathy, we can transform conflict into connection and thrive even in the most challenging. Workplaces, Eric's humor, wisdom, and practical tools have shown us how we can all show up better For our listeners, if how to Work with Jerks Struck a Chord, grab your copy, share it with your team, and start a conversation that matters.

And if you reach out to Eric, I bet he'll come in and facilitate some of those conversations with you. And as always, keep flourishing.

GMT20250714-172930_Recording: Thanks for joining Flourish. Remember that every healthcare leader needs a community to learn from and to lean on. Find your people at this week, health.com/subscribe. Share this episode with someone who needs encouragement today. Keep flourishing. That's all for now.