So really, I suppose a good rule of thumb is a, is around about three months if

they haven't purchased something from you.

So, you know, even just having that.

So reminding people that you exist, um, you know, a friendly hello

email can even just be, you know, even that in itself can just.

Make people purchase from you again, again, offering an incentive.

You're not paying because you've got them on your email list.

You're not paying, uh, an acquisition cost.

So you may as well use that within a discount to incentivize them to purchase.

Welcome to the e commerce podcast with me, your host, Matt Edmundson.

The e commerce podcast is all about helping you deliver e commerce.

Wow.

And to help you do just that, well, today I am chatting with today's very special

guest, Laura Hanlon from Pink Leopard E commerce Growth Acceleration Agency.

That's right, Pink Leopards.

We're going to get into that, uh, about how effective email flows

and list building strategies can boost your revenue.

But before Laura and I dive into our conversation, Let me share

with you a previous podcast pick, uh, which is a good alliteration.

I appreciate.

Check out how to increase your customer retention with Brandon.

Uh, that was a phenomenal conversation and also how to grow your business

using email marketing strategies with Tom Koolza from Aweber.

That was another fantastic conversation as well so do check those out.

You can access our podcast picks and our entire podcast archive for free

on our website, which is e commerce podcast . Net, that's ecommercepodcast.

net plus if you're there and you haven't yet to do so, uh, make sure

you sign up to the newsletter and we'll send the links from the podcast picks

along with the notes and the links from today's conversation with Laura.

They would all get sent straight to your inbox totally for free and

no cost to you, which is amazing.

So make sure you sign up for that.

Now show sponsor time.

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Now that's the show sponsor.

Let's talk about our show's guest.

We are going to meet Laura Hanlon, a former Facebook advertising

expert turned agency owner with a passion for helping businesses.

Thrive.

Her agency, Pink Leopard, offers a multi service approach to marketing

with experts in each field.

Laura believes in the power of omni channel.

Oh, yes.

Emphasizing the importance of email marketing for both customer acquisition

and retention in conjunction with other channels like social media and Google.

So, let's talk to Laura, shall we?

Laura, welcome to the show.

Great to have you.

I was getting a bit tongue tied there, Laura.

I'm not gonna lie.

It's great to have you on the show.

How are we doing?

Oh, thank you so much.

Yeah, good.

Thanks.

I feel like I'm on a radio show or a TV show.

It's one of those.

My friends have always told me, certainly one of my best friends, so

called best friends, has always told me over the last few years, Matt,

you've got a great face for radio.

So, uh, hence the reason I do the podcast, um, but it's, it's, it's great to me.

Our first question for you, uh, Laura, that I have is Pink Leopard.

What's that all about?

Yeah, I get, I do get asked this a lot.

Um, we've got a couple of stories on the Pink Leopard.

Really when I was the, the kind of real story is just starting out.

I was, it was when Moon Pig was, uh, starting out in a big company.

And I, and someone just said, just choose a color and your favorite animal.

So I was like, okay, that's easy.

Pink and leopard, but as it's kind of evolved, um, we work with a

lot of female founded businesses.

Um, so that kind of symbolizes the pink side of things and leopard being, um,

you know, obviously a powerful sort of feline character, so, oh, animal, sorry.

So that's, that's kind of how the name has evolved really.

And it's just.

It's it's stuck now and people seem to remember it.

So that's good.

Although we get called pink panther quite a lot Has it stuck?

I don't know It is interesting if you grew up in a certain age, which I did

I grew up in a certain era, um And the pink panther was a very popular thing

and I've got the pink panther theme in my head, um, which is why I just wanted

to double check that it was pink leopard when we, before we, before we hit the

record button and I didn't get it wrong.

Um, but I like this.

It's like your friend told you to take, pick a color and an

animal and put them together.

And you've got, you've got something interesting as a company name

because founders always struggle with the, what do I call my company?

What do I call my new website?

It's like, what do I call, um, you know, my new podcast

or whatever it's going to be.

The naming of something.

It's almost more difficult, I think, to name your company

than name your first child.

Oh, that is so true.

Yeah, we're going through it with another business at the moment

and it's just, oh, agonizing.

Um, and a child actually, but yeah, it's definitely the business.

And a child as well.

So congratulations.

Uh, and, uh, uh, yeah, just to be clear, Matthew is a brilliant name.

Um, I just telling everybody as much as I can call you kid.

Matt.

So let's get into this, shall we?

Uh, so your agency then, um, we read, uh, is, is a, we, you called it an e

commerce growth accelerator type agency.

You help e commerce agencies grow their businesses.

Um, and so what are some of the.

Common mistakes you see e commerce businesses make

from, from your point of view.

So I think, well, one of the, one of the biggest is, um, focusing on

single channel platforms to grow.

Um, this is something I used to have an e commerce store of

my own, um, a few years ago.

And this was.

You kind of could back then a few years ago, you could have, you

could even have a dodgy website and a real average product and just

literally fly with just Facebook ads.

And that's kind of.

Yeah, where we had started, but I see a lot of brands still trying to, to do

that and not sort of, you know, running across a multi channel, um, strategy

with email and, and Google ads too.

So that's, that's definitely a huge mistake.

Email marketing, obviously something we're going to.

Discuss today, but I see not many businesses doing email marketing very

well, which is, I always find it quite bizarre because it's, it's obviously

a channel that's been around for absolutely ages, but it almost seems like

a, a sort of a new platform sometimes when I'm auditing different accounts.

Um, And also, I think, I think just relying on old strategies, um, I think

sometimes in the e commerce world, you just get stuck in the, you know, with

the same strategies of email marketing or Facebook ads, um, that used to work

and not, it obviously moves so fast, especially, you know, in the world of

Facebook ads since the, the iOS changes and, you know, we see businesses still

Focusing on the same things and not moving along, still just optimizing to

the nth degree instead of focusing, you know, on the kind of new creatives and

really focusing on the brand as opposed to all of the kind of metrics that you

can, you can focus on, which is obviously important, but that's just, yeah, old

strategies I feel aren't working anymore.

So there's, there's some of the sort of bigger things that we, we see.

And it's interesting listening to you talk about that because.

Um, I, I, I have definitely done my fair share of coaching, uh,

in e commerce over the years.

And one of the things that has constantly amazed me and still

amazes me to a large extent is just how bad the email marketing is.

And my experience here is email marketing can contribute like 30 to 40%

of your income when it's done right.

Excuse me.

I don't know if you've got any metrics yourself, but that

tends to be a reasonable figure.

Um, that I can, that I can attribute, uh, good email marketing is going to

be sort of around 30, 40% of your, your, your income, if done right.

What, what are some of the things that you see, um, in email?

I mean, let's jump into email marketing.

Let's, what are some of the things that you see companies doing that maybe?

Maybe they might want to rethink.

Hmm.

Yeah, a lot.

There's a huge, a huge list.

How long have you got, Matt?

I think, well, there's kind of two parts.

And one is, I suppose, on growing the list and the sort of, um, you know,

your email database because without the email database, you don't, uh, you don't

really have a chance of generating a good amount of revenue through email.

Um.

And the other is obviously within the sort of optimization itself.

And there are so many different things down to, um, you know, the

different, not using the right platform.

So particularly with, uh, like email automated email flows, we

often see just that sort of just.

Last minute set up it within Shopify.

Um, the really basic automated flows and they're just not driving any revenue.

Um, things like, uh, really terrible designs, um, not optimizing.

Subject lines, we're not spending a lot of time on the, on the

copy and the content of emails.

Um, and also just blasting, the biggest thing we probably see is

people just blasting emails every single day to absolutely every

single body in their email list.

And that's a huge, huge bug bearer of ours.

That is an absolute no, no.

Um, but yeah, honestly, just, it just feels like it's a, a lot of the time

and energy and effort is spent on the acquisition and the Facebook ads and

Google ads have got to be perfect and they've got to, you know, drive a certain

return on ad spend and then the email marketing is like, ah, well that's, that's

the sort of afterthought or somebody.

doing that, um, you know, not, not spending a lot of

time and attention on it.

So, yeah.

And I think also these days, just to sort of throw something into the mix here,

Laura, because I, everything you've said, I, I think is totally bang on, but I, to

sort of add to the conversation, one thing that I have noticed is since the rise of

GDPR, people have become a lot twitchier.

Um, I don't know if that word translates actually beyond English borders,

uh, if you're outside of the UK.

Uh, people have become a lot more twitchy, a lot more nervous about, um, email

marketing for fear of getting it wrong.

I don't know if this is something that you've spotted, but.

Everybody's asking at the moment about what about GDPR?

What about their rules over there?

You know, California now has their own little system over there and, and, and

trying to keep up with all of that sort of stuff, I think people are becoming

more and more twitchy, um, especially when you hear things like, if you get

this wrong, people are going to find you colossal amounts of cash, you know?

Um, so I think there's a fear aspect of it as well.

Right.

Yeah, definitely.

Um, but I, yeah, I think the big GDPR, GDPR scare came out and.

Yeah, like you say, there is a lot more twitchiness and nervousness

that I'm probably not the best person to speak to when it comes to GDPR,

because I'm sort of like, I just, I still think it's such a great, I

think, I think it's such a great area.

And I always just sort of, you know, ensure our clients that as long as

you've got, if clients are opting in or they're purchasing or they've given

their details, and as long as you've got a way for them to, you know, opt out

and, and subscribe, and you're willing to, you know, you're not trying to,

some you put your details in, don't you?

And there's no way you can get out.

And that's the most frustrating thing in the entire world.

But as long as you have everything in your power to.

Ensure you're sticking to the GDPR rules and, you know, making it

easier for, for your customers.

And I think you're, you know, you're, you're okay.

You're fine.

They're not looking for, they're looking for huge corporations who are

just, you know, buying email lists and things like that, as long as you're

not doing any of the major no nos.

Um, but yeah, like we also have clients that are, you know, they're obsessed

with having the extra check box and then you've got to go through and then you.

You know, once the, once they've opted in, you've got to have another step

and they're putting too many steps in place for somebody to actually

become part of their email list.

It's hurting their business in that way.

So I think being mindful of it, but just not being, you know, completely

freaked out by it is the way to go.

Yeah, because there is the rule of common sense, isn't there?

I can tell you actually, um, a few weeks ago, uh, we had

an email from a German lawyer.

about GDPR for one of our ecom businesses.

And, uh, we, it was a letter in German.

Now bearing in mind, we're an English company and this, this actually is where

it pays to have pretty, pretty good terms and conditions on your website.

Um, little top tip for you.

Because in our terms and conditions, it says that, you know, by

transacting on our website, you're going to be governed by English law.

And so a chap from Germany, apparently, I don't know the full details, got in

touch with our customer service team and said, you need to send me all the

details that you have on me according to GDPR rules, which actually is, in

my understanding, is not a, I'm not a lawyer, so don't take this as gospel.

In my understanding, uh, it's not actually, um, It's not actually the

right way to go and get your details because we don't know who he is.

You can just call up and pretend to be anybody and say, well, send

me all the details that you've got.

So there has to be some mechanism of proof.

So they have to fill out a form, a certain form to get

the data, which they didn't do.

So our customer service agent just said, no, I'm not giving you that information,

which I thought was very sensible.

Um, we then get a letter from the German lawyer.

And the reason I'm telling this story is I think actually these

scams are going to be coming more and more obvious, uh, more and more.

Um, they're going to appear more and more.

Um, and I think we just need to be aware of them.

A German lawyer contacted us and said, you have to pay 7, 000 euros straight

away or we're going to take you to court.

To which our law team, because fortunately we have one, um, as a head barrister,

just emailed them back and said, listen, I'm not even going to respond

to this letter whilst it's in German.

We deal in English.

Um, now that.

Might sound quite harsh, but under the terms and conditions, we're,

we're governed by English law.

So it's like, if you want to take this further, send me a letter in English

and then I'll respond accordingly.

Obviously, we have not heard back from them.

It just feels like they're going to send that email to 20, 000 email, uh, to 20,

000 companies, all of which I dare say he went and registered to their email address

list somewhere, called them up and said, you need to give me my details to which

they've not responded maybe correctly.

And it's scaring a lot of people.

And I think more and more, this is going to become one of those scams.

But I thought actually it's probably just worth mentioning.

Um, uh, you know, don't be afraid.

Uh, when people start sending you legal letters like that, or apparently,

apparent legal letters, um, as long as your terms and conditions are clear.

Um, I don't know if you've come across any of these sort of scams, Laura.

Yeah, I have actually more recently happened to our client.

Like you say, they had their terms and conditions, they had everything

in the privacy policy laid out.

Uh, it was more for Facebook ad data though.

Um, and the cookies policy was, was present on the website.

So I think it was a scam.

They had gone through the ICO.

We spoke to the ICO, but there was, there was no records of their details

either in our kind of email list.

So, um, yeah, a hundred percent, I think.

That's what some people's jobs are going to be now is just to go out and see if

they can bribe and um, a scam of course, but I guess if they are actually putting

their details in and then finding out that you don't have, like you've said, the

cookie policy or the terms and conditions, then yeah, they will take it to, to

the ICO in the UK, in the UK's case.

Um, yeah, yeah.

Very difficult to speak to the ICO about it though as well.

Um, and very, I do find it quite difficult to get like an exact.

unless you work with a lawyer, like this is exactly, you know, what

you have to do the do's and don'ts.

This is the exact wording, but again, common sense and following it to, you

know, the, the best that you absolutely can do because so many e commerce

websites still don't have the T's and C's.

They don't have the cookie puller, they don't have the end subscription.

So yeah.

Definitely want to be mindful of definitely so do go check those out.

And my advice is go contact a good lawyer.

They're worth the investment when you get those things right.

Um, it's just, it's all a bit dull and boring, isn't it?

Um, and, but it is, it is worth doing.

Right.

So let's go back to, um, what you said earlier, Laura, before we get

sucked into GDPR, which I don't want to get sucked into, if I'm

honest, um, growing your list.

How do you what are some of the effective ways you've seen e commerce

companies grow their email list?

Yeah, so I So what I say to everybody I'd 100% recommend having a pop up on

your website So that any form of traffic heading to your website has a really clear

and easy way to subscribe to your email list so obviously often this is this is

you know done with it an incentive so A lot of stores now sort of 10 15% we

still find that works really well Um, but we've also we had a client who um has a

pop up where you can complete a skin quiz test, which is really, really effective.

Um, so yeah, finding sort of gamification.

So it doesn't always have to be a discount.

It can be, but it does have to be a clear reason for somebody

put to put their details in.

Um, and then making sure that You know, you have the traffic going to your website

because it's all in good having that pop up there without any traffic Nobody's

gonna come and enter their details into your list Um, also we find works

pretty well is running competitions.

So having a landing page uh that's sort of dedicated to Um a competition where you

run traffic to that page and collaborating with other brands that are similar

Um, also, uh, other sort of content creators and influencers to promote that.

You do have to be careful with a, with a competition that you don't

get a load of dud leads through.

So I'd always that paid traffic can work as long as you're, you know,

you're, you're targeting, you've got the right offer and you're

targeting the right sort of people.

But even then.

Um, you just want to make sure that you keep an eye on that, but if you

work with other brands and influencers, and it's kind of a collaborative

effort, then that does drive really, really good, um, quality signups.

Um, and something that we've been doing more recently is, um, I

guess since iOS really, and looking for different strategies to, to.

Build email lists and obviously drive revenue is to, we use a

lot of Facebook formats now.

So we drive paid ads through Facebook formats.

Something that I used to absolutely hate when we ran lead generation, um,

campaigns for clients who were service based businesses, because they always

used to be a bit iffy with, with whether they were good quality leads.

But in the e commerce world, we're finding that.

They are really good quality and, um, it really is building, you can build

your, your email list, your welcome list for, for really cheap, um, and driving a

really good return against those lists.

So it's something we run alongside a full, um, paid strategy,

uh, for eCommerce funnel.

But the, the list build is something that we, we're finding works really well.

And then obviously you can integrate that through Zapier into your Klaviyo account.

Um, and just making sure that you've got a really good.

Welcome flow that can um, you know, turn those leads into into

actual paying customers So good.

I mean that sounds like a really it's a nice little hack Uh is the word we like

to use isn't it a little hack there?

Just have you got an example of?

Of that Facebook formats, welcome sequence working, what sort of things

would I need to think about then?

Yeah, so one of the best, so you definitely, you have to have some

sort of incentive, as I said, but one thing that I think works the absolute

best, so with a fashion, um, a fashion brand that we work with, We, when

they've got a big, say, spring, summer or autumn, winter drop, because they

have two, two fashion drops within the year, we start to build the suspense

a couple of months before that drop.

So we run the ads, we build the pop up, um, it's, you know, 10%,

be the first to know because these, um, collections do sell out, so we

generally have a sense of urgency.

Um, so be the first to know when the collection drops, enter, enter your

details, all that sort of stuff.

Um, they put their details into the, into the form, and then we...

Build the welcome flow.

And then once we actually have that drop, that's when we send that email

out to the list and we, we just see such a huge spike in revenue.

So that's when I find it works really well.

If you've got something more exciting than just a discount, either, as

I've said, it's a new collection, or maybe you've got a new product or

something's back in stock, um, that yeah, works very well, very well.

But equally, even just having a discount running, you know, all of the time.

And it's got to be with everything in e commerce, which is so annoying, isn't it?

But you've got to test and see that it's right for you.

I think for us, it works really, really well for some, some of our clients and

some, it does work well, but not as well.

So we don't put as much budget towards it, for example.

Yeah, no, that's fair.

And like you say, you've got to test, but I can see why that would work well for the

fashion brand who are doing two drops a year and you, um, you can use it very much

as a sort of a list building technique.

Pretty much qualified leads, aren't they?

And so then you, you can, um, you can market to them accordingly.

Um, I like that.

I like that little strategy.

Have you got any more little hacks like that?

Oh, um, let me see.

Well, I think just, just to add on to that, sorry, that works really well,

that strategy for Q4 period too, because obviously when, um, When traffic's

cheaper in Q3, uh, that's when you can start to build your email list

and then retarget in Q4 when, um, you know, when it's a lot more expensive

to advertise on different platforms.

So that's where we sort of drew the idea from really.

It's something that we've always, always done in Q4.

So yeah, I'd highly recommend that, especially with, with Q3 on the horizon,

get those, get, get that in place.

Definitely.

It's a good Black Friday strategy then, isn't it?

In sort of Q, in terms of building your, your, um, Your email list.

And I suppose now's the time to test what actually works well for building the list.

So if you, hopefully you've got some idea of what you're going to be doing

in Black Friday because it's not that long away now at the time of recording.

Um, it'll come upon us very, very quickly.

I have no doubt.

But, um, with that idea in mind, I suppose you could test like three or

four things which are going to work, uh, which could potentially work, see

which works the most and then push that in Q3 to build your email list.

So when it comes to Black Friday, Q4, that sort of stuff you're

going to do around Christmas.

Um, you've, you've got a, you know, a good sort of, what sort of, um, I, I

appreciate as I, as I'm forming this question in my head, pre answering it as I

normally do, Laura, what sort of customer, what sort of Um, costs are associated

to generate a lead using this method.

I appreciate that's a bit how long is a piece of string.

Um, but what's the sort of a budget to have there?

Um, so the budget or what sort of cost per lead do you, do you normally achieve?

Yeah, what sort of, what sort of cost per lead would you, would you

normally have in that strategy?

Uh, we, I mean, like you say, it really, really does.

depend on the brand, on the offer.

We can see lead costs as cheap as 10, 20p, but it can be, you know, for some

brands it can be two pound, three pound.

Um, but that, you know, if they've got higher average order values

and not such a great discount, that still, still really works for them.

Um, and I like to run maybe We're testing out maybe sort of five, 10%

of the budget towards that list build.

And then, like I say, some, some of our clients, we see a, a three,

four times return on ad spend within Facebook ads manager against that form.

So we can see that it, you know, it directly drives that return on ad spend.

And that's obviously just within the seven day attribution windows that doesn't

count, you know, kind of beyond that.

Um, So yeah, that's, but like I say, it really does have to, you

do have to have a really enticing welcome flow, um, on the back end.

Otherwise it's.

Yeah, I, I, I, I get that.

I just want to, before we talk maybe about that, um, I'm getting into the weeds

here a little bit on, I appreciate that.

But, um, I like how you mentioned that this has a higher ROAS because you

can, I assume Facebook can monitor how many people click the ad and

how many people filled out the form.

So attribution becomes a lot more straightforward.

Um, whereas attribution with Facebook ads themselves, I was at, um.

I was at a conference, I've mentioned this before, but I was at a, um, I was

at a conference where the, uh, Neil Hoyne, I think his name is from Google,

was talking about data and he said that he gave an example of a lady who had

over 260 separate interactions with the company before buying a pair of shoes.

260.

So some of those were on websites, some were social media, some

were email, some were Google.

So, but 200, and he's like, how do I attribute that?

How do I, who, at what point, and attribution becomes more and more complex.

Whereas what you're talking about here, just for a simple list building strategy,

actually attribution becomes pretty straightforward, I would have thought.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Attribution is normally the bane of my life, but in this instance, yeah, exactly.

Absolutely.

Um, because we can.

We can measure that return, as I say, directly against those.

Those email, um, the email opt in.

So we've got a cost per lead, but we've always also got the

amount of purchases and the cost per purchase alongside of them.

So that makes it really, really easy to sort of attribute.

But like I say, it's, it's the kind of past that attribution window that you

can't, so for some, it's great when there is a direct return on ad spend against

it, but it's then figuring out the attribution when there isn't to make sure,

you know, is that still doing a really good job of, um, converting the, the.

The customer sort of down the track with the welcome flow when it's not sort

of instantaneous um But yeah, it's it.

Yeah, it definitely makes It really easy when there is a return you can

justify it to can justify to my clients that we're putting more and more money

into that This is how it's working.

Yeah, totally.

So let's talk about the emails then Um, you talked about optimization

you talked about having basic flows You just mentioned about making

sure your welcome sequence is is hot Terrible designs crap subject lines.

No thought given to content.

Um, and then send in the same email to just Literally everybody on your list.

So out of those, which is the one which is your biggest pet peeve?

Oh, probably I'd probably say not.

I'd say sloppy welcome flow.

Sorry.

Sloppy flows of the four.

We'll say, I'll say, yeah, four of the most important email flows.

The sloppy flows where it's might be driving 1 to 2% revenue.

That's probably my biggest pet peeve because that's where I see the biggest

opportunity Okay, so sloppy flows.

I like this.

This is we should buy the domain name sloppy flows.

com um So what uh, you mentioned the four flows.

So what are those see the welcome flow?

The Abandoned Cart Flow, the Browser Abandonment Flow, and the Winback Flow.

Uh, and Winback.

Okay, I'm just making some notes here.

So let's start with the Welcome Flow.

What makes a Sloppy Welcome Flow?

Sloppy Welcome Flow is, I guess, either having, um, So ones that we've sort of,

I'll just go off, ones that we've audited recently would have, you know, sort of

10, 12, 13 emails in the flow where none of them are really driving any sales.

Yeah, driving any revenue.

Um, also ones that it's just, well, it's not as bad having one email in the

flow, but just not, I suppose, not the optimum amount of flows for, uh, sorry,

emails in that flow for their business.

Uh, I'd also say just really poor designs.

that aren't on brand.

So many times we just see, yeah, like sort of just templates taken

from Klaviyo and they're not really optimized or, uh, continuing in

continuation with their brand.

Um, and also just a lack of, um, sort of a lack of story and a

lack of interest behind the flow.

Just, you know, here's a discount, buy, buy it.

And it's just like, no, that's not great.

Someone's put their details in, uh, sorry, someone's taken an interest within,

from their Facebook ads, Top of Funnel, they've come through to the Welcome Flow,

and it's just a, here's a discount, but no more reason why that they would buy.

And that's what people, you know, they want to know, they want to, they

want to see a beautiful dress or a beautiful product on a Facebook ad, uh,

maybe an influencer wearing it, then they want to come onto your website.

Get 10% off, for example, put their details in, then come to the flow where

they see a bit more about the brand is, you know, where, where's it made, like,

is it made ethically, you know, it's, it's made in a factory in a third world

country where this brand really supports, um, you know, those workers a bit more

about the founders and about their story.

And, you know, that, I feel like that's where the, where you get the chance to.

really make a prospect fall in love with your brand.

And so, yeah, I guess Sloppy Flows is part of just the, yeah,

here's a product, here's 10% off.

It's no more enticing than the initial Facebook ad that they saw was.

So, yeah.

Yeah, it has to, like you say, it has to be a bit more creative, doesn't it?

And I like this phrase, it, it has to tell the story.

Um, and it has to tell the story well.

Uh, uh, this, if I, if I had a pet peeve, Laura, it would be, um, companies that

tell their story in a really bad way.

Um, and I pick on accountants for this because, um, I used to be one.

And so I feel like I can, um, as I used to be when I did my degree in accounting,

that's probably as close as I got.

And then I realized I'm never going to be an accountant.

Um, but the reason I pick on accountants is they were, I

remember doing this exercise once.

With a, with a group and we had, we just Googled whatever

the local accountancy firm was.

The first website that came up in Google, we went straight to its website

to highlight this particular point.

And it, it, it was, it was a stereotype on my part, but it was played to a

tee, I have to be honest with you.

This accountant's website came up and in the top left corner was a big logo.

Um, and then it said, you know, in business for 30

years or something like that.

And then the hero image on the website was.

A picture of their building and the specific part of their building they

took a picture of was a picture of the logo on the side of the building.

And then it was like one of these carousel images.

Uh, and the next image was a picture of their business card specifically focused

on the logo on their business card.

And it was just, I was crying.

And so I'm like, yeah, this, I said to the guys in the room who

weren't e commerce guys, but they were, um, a lot of CEOs and leaders.

And I said, let me tell you straight, no one cares about your logo.

more than you do.

They just don't, um, but what they do care about is how you can help them.

So tell your story in a way that actually is attractive to them and just put

in pictures of your logo everywhere.

That's not gonna work.

No.

Oh yeah, we had a client, um, similar to that who just...

cared about how big their showroom was and in every single ad and in every single

email they just wanted to say we've got an oh god it's 35, 000 square foot showroom.

I was like, no one cares about how big your showroom is.

It's funny, yeah, that's always a challenge, they're just trying to...

Well, we, we spend a lot of time trying to eke out the story from the founders.

And cause I guess a lot of the time for the founders, it's hard

because it's all in their head and it's not even on their website.

It's really, really difficult.

And so we spend a lot of time, you know, listening to their story, asking

questions, trying to dig deeper to be like, ah, there's the interesting part of

your story that you think we should have.

So, yeah.

That's where I think actually I, not to, uh, you know, deliberately sell your

company, but that's where an agency I think really helps because, um, I think

for a lot of people, a lot of founders, it's very hard to know how to tell

their story attractively because it all isn't, they live it 24/7, you know,

and there's a lot of assumed knowledge.

That's the other thing that I've noticed.

A lot of people assume that everybody knows everything and they know nothing.

And it's just, um, so someone from the outside who knows how to ask

questions can draw that out of them, I think is a really powerful thing.

Um, and a real benefit to using a good agency because they will draw that out of

you and help you set up these sequences.

So the abandoned co op flow, okay, that's all fairly straightforward stuff.

The browser abandonment flow, I'm kind of curious what you do

there that makes it not sloppy.

Yeah.

So, um, so having, making sure that you've got a, uh, some sort of, again,

incentive, or if there, you know, if there is a discount, if someone has abandoned

to get them to, to come back and purchase and just making sure that that's really,

um, you know, obvious in the email.

So many times, again, we see, um, discounts.

without the discount code or that they put it at the very bottom of an email.

So the abandoned cart and the same with the, um, the abandoned checkout is loads

and loads and loads of texts and images.

And then there's a discount and a call to action all the way at the bottom.

Um, so, you know, making sure that that's really clear.

Um, Using urgency, things like using reviews and testimonials to again, make

it really enticing for somebody to, to see why they should, why they should purchase.

They obviously had a bit of an interest in the first place, so it's making sure that

you can then turn them into a customer.

Um, and then also giving them a, like a real sense of urgency

as, as one of the final emails.

So, you know, giving them a real last chance, not a fake last chance to

put that, you know, for the discount, but a real last chance, um, That's

some of the things that work really well, um, within the abandoned.

browser abandonment checkout system.

Very good, very good.

And what sort of things do you think about when it comes to winbacks?

So, winback, so one of the things with a winback, I think, is in the actual

setup, sometimes we see, you know, a year down the track is the winback

flow but it's so long from someone having purchased To, uh, you know,

actually still remembering your brand.

So really, I suppose a good rule of thumb is a, is around about three months if

they haven't purchased something from you.

So, you know, even just having that.

So reminding people that you exist, um, you know, a friendly hello

email can even just be, you know, even that in itself can just.

Make people purchase from you again, again, offering an incentive.

You're not paying because you've got them on your email list.

You're not paying, uh, an acquisition cost.

So you may as well use that within a discount to incentivize them to purchase.

Sometimes what we find works quite well here is asking for

feedback because people do love.

Giving feedback, um, or leaving review.

Yeah.

So, um, asking for that sort of feedback or review there.

Um, and obviously that's, that's been a win win.

Um, and again, a last chance to buy.

Otherwise something that you can use that for sense of urgency is the

last chance to buy, otherwise they will be removed from your email list.

And it's weird because you think, Oh, well, people probably won't care at

that stage, but I have had those before.

And I'm like, no, I don't, I don't want to, I want to, yeah.

So as long as.

Yeah.

So, um, I mean, yeah, so that, that's, um, that's another kind of final good email,

really good email to make sure that they stay subscribed to your list, stay active.

They're not, you know, contributing to, to your spam count and your emails.

Um, yeah.

And it's, it's, it's a good point actually, because if you, if they don't

want to be subscribed to your email list, actually it's good to let them go.

Uh, and keep your list clean for a whole bunch of reasons.

Um, and it's interesting, uh, how you're doing this in a world at the

moment where the cost of money is high because interest rates are high,

which means there's not as much cheap money floating around the system to

just throw at customer acquisition.

People, I think people are becoming more and more aware of both the

need to, um, increase repeat purchases and focus strategy there,

and also the need to reactivate.

Um, customers on that email list and the sort of the win, the win

back email sequence is a good way to, it's part of the, it's, it's

a way that you could do that.

Um, but I think, I think in a world where I guess a good question for you,

actually, in a world where reactivation now is becoming a bigger and bigger deal.

Have you seen some good reactivation campaigns or some good

reactivation hacks that we can think

about?

so I think again sort of in terms of something that works really well is I

think you've got to get them Sort of back excited about the brand again um, and

that can work really we've seen it work really well when we have uh, you know

inform them of Changes or with the company or like a new, say, new collections,

um, something again news or like product drops that are really exciting for them.

Um, that's when I find you've gotta find a, yeah, a, an

excuse and a kind of reason to.

You know, to want to re engage them, maybe retelling them about

the story, um, the story of the brand to get them re bought in.

Um, and also like a, a really great discount can obviously go a long way in

being able to, again, because you're not paying for the, the initial acquisition.

You may as well, you know, kind of throw everything that you can at

getting them to, to sort of reactivate.

So that's some of the things that we found work well.

Yeah, yeah.

No, fantastic.

And if, um, What are some of the things that you've seen work

well, which aren't discounts?

So, um, discounting is a, is a big topic in its own conversation, isn't it?

But, um, I'm kind of curious, what have you seen companies do

well there that aren't discounts, but have been super engaging?

Yeah.

So, um, well, this wasn't necessarily reactivation, but a company.

Oh, you probably know them BAM, BAM socks.

They sell, so they actually sock company.

Yeah, they're one of the things that they did that was incredible.

They do do it reactivation, but they used to, if you subscribed,

you've got a free pair of socks.

Um, so it's obviously not discount, but then it was very, very clever.

And that's got my mum.

That's hooked my mum to be a customer for life.

She spends so much money with them.

Um, because obviously you get the chance to impress.

I know every company can't do this.

Yeah.

It is what it is.

But, um, yeah, cause you, you obviously got to see the product, um, see the

packaging, feel, you know, just really kind of connect with that brand.

Um, so that I thought that was brilliant.

I've seen other companies do, do similar things.

Um, and then I guess things like, um.

Again, skin companies, I've seen them do, as I've said, things like the quiz

or sending a free sample, um, that works really well, uh, which isn't,

you know, directly discount because discounts, yeah, I agree with you,

it's a completely different topic.

Like you can spend hours talking about discounts, um, but sending out

free samples or just free advice.

Um, free, if it's fashion, you could have a, you know, a free

sort of PDF like document guides.

Yeah.

You know the latest fashion trends, um, And some people don't necessarily I do

subscribe to things that i'm as long as i'm really really interested in it

It doesn't have to be a discount but things like that if i'm interested in

the brand and I want the latest trends or I want to know the latest way to wear.

Um, you know layered jewelry, then I will put my details in so you've got a really

really The important thing is really thinking about what the customer would

want from you, what they're interested in.

Um, I guess this counts just the easy, the easy sort of way.

And I guess becoming a little bit more expected, um, now, but

there are definitely ways to do.

You know, to do it without discount.

There are, you can definitely be creative.

It doesn't always have to be.

I remember, um, again, I might've told this example already on the show,

but there was one site I went to that I was looking for a plant, actually

for in here, for in the studio.

Um, and I was, I was looking for plants online and I was like.

Okay, um, I know nothing about houseplants.

So, I'm not necessarily ready to buy now, but I'm ready to

buy at some point in the future.

So, this one website I came across, um, understood this, and so it's

like, well, I'm going to figure out a way to capture your email address

if you're not ready to buy, which I always think is a top strategy,

top way to think about your website.

And, um, they had this email sign up, 10 ways not to kill your houseplants.

Um, I've got it as well, that sequence, I was like, I can't, I still can't remember

the name of the website, but I remember this email sequence coming through

because I was so in, that's me to a T.

I'm like, of course, I'm going to kill this house plant.

I definitely want this email sequence.

And I signed up.

I don't know if you, if you signed up for it as well.

One of the things that I've realized Laura is they've never followed

me up with any other marketing.

Well, that's true because you can't remember the name of it and

I can't remember the name of brand.

It's, it's on the tip of my tongue, but I don't think, yeah, I don't

think I get emails from them.

No, and I thought this was fascinating.

It was a great way to get my email address, but they have definitely not

made the most of having my email address.

Which really surprised me because I thought whoever thought that

up at the start has obviously put some thought into this.

But the follow up...

It just goes to show you, you can be good at one thing, but not

good at everything, apparently.

Uh, so, listen, Laura, I am aware of time, and it's getting away from us,

and I have so many more questions.

Um, but it was just nice, actually, to just dig deep on one or two things,

rather than be a bit more generalised.

And I really appreciate you doing that and sharing your...

your insights and your value and, uh, just loved it.

Love the conversation.

Got lots of notes, which is always a big sign.

But if people listening to the show want to connect with you, if they want to find

out more about pink leopards, um, and, uh, about what you do, have questions for you.

Go.

What's the best way to do that?

Yeah, so our website is www.pink leopard.co uk.

Um, my, uh, Instagram is Pink leopard uk where we do provide

lots of kind of information hacks.

Uh, so feel free to follow us there or you can contact me directly.

Um, I'll be Laura Hanlon on LinkedIn and I'm happy to answer

any questions that you may have.

Fantastic.

We will of course link to all of those, the social media, the website and Laura's

LinkedIn on the show notes as well.

So, um, yeah, if you've got those coming to your inbox, they'll all be in there.

And do reach out to Laura.

Do say hello.

Do connect with them over at Pink Leopard.

even for nothing else.

They've got a really cool company name and I think it's awesome.

Uh, so listen, Laura, genuinely, thank you for coming on the show.

Really, really appreciate it.

It was a wonderful, wonderful conversation.

Um, and a massive thanks for joining me today.

Thank you so much for having me.

I really enjoyed it too.

Well, that's, that's, that's important.

Uh, so, uh, uh, big shout out to today's show sponsor, the e commerce cohort.

Remember to check out their free training at ecommercecycles.

com.

Also, be sure to follow the e commerce podcast, wherever you

get your podcast from, because we've got more great conversations

like this one with Laura today.

And I don't want you to miss any of them at all.

No.

And in case no one has told you yet.

Today, you, dear listener, are awesome.

Yes, you are.

Created awesome.

It's just a burden you have to bear.

Laura has to bear it.

I have to bear it.

You've got to bear it as well.

Now, the e commerce podcast is produced by Aurion Media.

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and the team that makes this show possible is Sadaf Beynon,

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And as I mentioned, if you would like to read the transcript or show notes, head

over to the website, ecommercepodcast.

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That's ecommercepodcast.

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That's it from me.

That's it from Laura.

Thank you so much for joining us.

Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world.

I'll see you next time.