Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction. This is your host, Dr. G, and our music is written and produced by Mike Sullivan. Welcome to Season one State versus Stefan Baldwin, episode eight. The link. This episode is very, um, how do you say it's very full. Of cases, both of animal cruelty, some of the bad things that he did against animals, but also of the interpersonal violence that he inflicted on people. So definitely be careful with yourself. Be mindful. As you listen through this episode, because definitely it can be triggering. Um, but very important to share these stories. As we have always said, it's an i, it's to let people know about the things that he did and to find ways to prevent it from happening to other people. So we are going to kick off speaking with Emma Rka about a dog named Gucci and his caretaker, Amanda. So, can you start by letting our audience know a little bit about you? Like where, where you work, like what do you do with animals?

Um, I'm at a shelter called Blue Chip Farm Animal Refuge in Dallas, Pennsylvania. We are a smaller no kill shelter, um, that is pretty well known in the area 'cause we don't do not have many no kill shelters. Um, so a lot of the animals on our property, if they cannot find homes, they just end up living with us until either that comes along or until they eventually pass in our care. Uh, it's very rare for us to have to euthanize anyone for behavioral reasons. Um, so I would say. Just about a hundred percent of our animals either find a home with us or live with us until they pass.

So would you say that that you guys get a lot of animals that would be considered to have behavioral issues, or is that something that's rare and then when it happens, you just manage it?

Uh, a lot of our animals have behavioral issues. Um, right now on the property, I would say we have about 15 that are very hard to adopt out. A few of those. We do not even post for adoption anymore because our volunteers know how to safely handle them. They're happy where they're where they're at, so it's no point in kind of messing that up for them. So they just end up calling our shelter home.

Good. I, I like that because that's really responsible. You know, like I, I see a lot of rescues that try to push these animals out and then they set the animals for failure and they set, they set the people for failure as well.

Yeah. We try to, um, like safety is our number one priority. Um, so if we really feel like an animal's not safe enough to adopt out, we do keep them in our care. If it gets to the point where the behaviorals are so intense that nobody can safely handle them, that's when the discussion is brought up. Um, but it has to be a pretty severe situation for us to get to that point.

So we're here because we're gonna talk about you guys' interaction with Stefan Baldwin and, um, what ended up being a big part of this case. So do you wanna start just by telling us how. About the dog and how everything, how everything started.

Sure. Um, so Gucci was about a year, year and a half when he went to Stephan. Um, prior to Stephan becoming involved, he was removed from a bad situation, um, as a puppy. So he was only between like six to nine months old when we got him. And because of his high energy, nobody ever even asked to really meet him. And he had one failed adoption through us, um, which was not his fault. And after being in a kennel for so long and growing up in that environment, it causes a dog to. I have some issues usually just pent up energy. Um, even though we take them out every single day, I mean, it's just not enough for them to reach their true like exercise goal. Um, so when Stephan was brought into the picture, um, he offered to take Gucci and work with him and we said yes. Uh, and the only reason why Stephan was brought into the picture was because he started dating one of our volunteers, Amanda. Um, and when he finally came up to visit us. That's when he offered to take Gucci and we took him up on the offer because of what his status was, how involved Amanda was with him and having trust there. Um, so we allowed him to take Gucci back and the plan was for Stefan to work with him on some of his issues, get that energy out, post him for adoption, um, find him a home. And if it didn't work out, it was always supposed to be Gucci comes back to us. Um, for any reason Gucci had to come back to us. It's in our adoption contract for every single adopter, um, anyone we transfer animals to. We do not approve euthanization that they have to come back to us. Um, so we kind of just move forward with the plan because everyone, all parties agreed on it and Gucci went to Ohio with them.

Did Gucci have any issues with aggression or was it just like his high energy?

It was high energy that was starting to turn into some kennel aggression. Um, he was having a harder time meeting new people, which is extremely common with animals that spend an extended amount of time at a shelter, especially when they're so young, when they first get there. Um, just growing up in that environment can cause issues. Um, everyone. At the shelter was able to handle him without any issues whatsoever. It was more the introduction to new people that was becoming a little bit difficult and he was starting to show some aggression towards the dogs. But that, again, like that was, a lot of it was just related to how much time he had to spend in his kennel. Um, but severe issues, he didn't have any like that. Um, it was just, we knew how to handle it and he just needed a little bit more than we could provide and more time outside of a kennel setting.

And did he charge you anything for this service?

I do know that she gave him. I believe it was a thousand dollars when she, when he took Gucci on. Um, to which I guess, uh, is a charge, um, for his food. Any vet work that was needed out there? Um, the only difference with Gucci was that he did not ask for more money from us. The longer he had Gucci like he did with other people.

How long total did he end up having? Gucci?

He got Gucci, it was April of 2016. And Gucci was euthanized, um, October of 2016. Okay.

So you mentioned that he was dating Amanda. So Amanda ended up moving to Ohio with him, is that right?

Yes. Uh, she decided to move out with him. Um, they were dating for a few weeks or months, um, before this decision was made. Uh, the plan was for Gucci to go out with him in April and Amanda to fully move out there in May. And part of the reason why she made the decision so quickly was because Stefan informed her that he was shooting a pilot for a show on, I dunno if it was animal plan or whatever, but kind of compared it to pit bull and parolees. Um, and needed help getting his property ready before the crew got there and everything. So Amanda kind of sped up her process and moved out there with him to help his property get to this point. Um, but that was all a lie. There was no show, there was no crew coming. It. Was just a complete lie to her.

So what, what was her communications with you guys as far as like when she went there and she saw that things were, were not it,

so she stayed in contact with us, um, most of the time that she was out there. Um, I think communication kind of slowed down a little bit when she got back into. I don't know if it was alcohol or drugs or whatever it was while she was with him. Um, but her communication at the start was great. It was phenomenal out there. She loved it. Um, Stephan hid the truth for a while from her. Um, so she didn't know it was a lie until she was already there for a little bit. Um, that's when things started taking a turn. And she did tell us that he was being abusive towards her. And the one story that always sticks out was. I, she was cleaning like the gutters or something on top of the, like on the roof. And she was on a tall ladder and he got mad at her for no reason and kicked the ladder out from under her. Um, that was the first time she opened up about what was happening. Um, she didn't go into. Much more detail on the full extent of abuse. Uh, she didn't wanna talk about it when she came back. She didn't wanna share what happened. Um, she just said Gucci's safe and eventually came back home. Um, she, I mean, she went out there in May and she was back by August. Um, so really she only spent the summer with 'em. Uh, but when she came back it wasn't, she didn't really wanna talk about anything. Um. Which I wish that she would open up a little bit more about it. I think if she was still here today and saw this happening, she would absolutely open up about it more. Um, but at the time she definitely didn't want to talk about it. Um, but when she came back home, she. Was no longer sober. Um, she was sober for seven years. Um, when she went out to Ohio, came back, um, really could not care for herself, could not care for her animals. Made the decision to leave one of her dogs with Stefan because he was a behavioral, um, west Highland Terrier and was doing much better, she said, having more space to himself with Stefan. Um, so they made the agreement for Mozart to stay out there. No idea whatever happened to Mozart. Um, but when she came back, it was, it was rough. Um, she had a very hard final year, two years of her life, um, wasn't able to care for her animals anymore, couldn't hold a job or anything like that because of her addiction being back in full force. Um, and I actually ended up right when she moved back with Stefan, she gave me one of her dogs that she could not, um. Uh, bring to where she was living. So I ended up having Brody, um, who just recently passed away, um, from the time she got back until last year.

It's, it's really sad and I spoke with. Another person that he was dating, and it sounds like a pattern, right? Like he takes people who are vulnerable and then isolates them, takes 'em away from their friends and family, um, does all these lies, takes away their, their financial strength and everything else, and then just starts playing game with them and causing problems like alcoholism and drug addiction. So, you know, it just breaks people down and then becomes abusive. I mean, a very clear pattern of domestic violence. And then on the side, the, the animal abuse.

Yeah. And I know Amanda did have a job while she was out there. She was a very good tattoo artist. Um, she did get a temporary, uh, job out there in Ohio. Um, she only left it because she had to leave the situation she was in. Um, but I do know at one point. He informed her that there was no rent because the property was owned by the county or whatever. Um, and then the one day he freaked out on her and asked her where the rent was and she didn't have a job at the time 'cause she was helping him on the property. And because all of a sudden there was rent and she was expected to pay all of it. Um, so it was. A very bizarre situation. Like it was just all lies. And I wish that she was here today to ask questions because I'm sure there's so much more. Um, but what we do know, I mean obviously just wasn't good at all. And I just wish that she, I don't know if she didn't see the full extent of what he was doing to the animals because she was a very, very big animal advocate. Um, so I would imagine if she saw some extreme things, she would have said something unless. Something was said to her to prevent her from doing that. Um, but I mean, I wish we could ask her more questions, but I really do believe that if she saw something really bad, she would've spoken up unless she feared for something to happen to her in return. 'cause she was just, her whole life revolved around animals.

Yeah, it's, it's really sad the, the path that he took her from. And even though he didn't do anything directly to end her life, I think that, I mean, you can speak to it. Do you think that he was responsible for what happened?

I do. Um, I, I think everyone involved in her life. Believes that if she never met him, she would still be here. Um, she was doing so well. She had a great job. She had all her animals, great relationships with her friends and family. Um, she was really doing well for herself until this all happened. Um, so I, I personally, strongly believe and put him at fault for what ultimately happened to her.

So tell me about Gucci. What ended up happening? What was Gucci's story?

Um, so what ended up happening with Gucci was. We were told that he was adopted out, and I'm actually still in contact with the person who originally adopted him. So that was not a lie. Um, he very, very quickly placed, uh, Gucci into a new home that had other animals, which one of his issues was not being good with other animals, um, which wouldn't have been as big of an issue because. He did show us proof that Gucci was playing with the other dogs his size at home or at Stefan's home. Um, so he was doing better with them, but he placed 'em into a setting where it was another pit, which I don't think he had an issue with. I'm not a hundred percent on that. But the woman also had an elderly small dog. So what ultimately happened was Gucci went after the small dog. I don't know if the other pit got involved or what happened, but she had to immediately return, uh, Gucci to Stefan. And I don't blame her, but he also should have never been put in that situation that it was the opposite of what he needed. Um, and it was just so quick. I feel like it was within a month of him having Gucci, that he just adopted him out. Um, and at the time. I was 16, so it was, I didn't have a lot of questions to ask or I didn't question him really at all because of my age, and I just wasn't experienced enough to ask the questions that should have been asked. Um, but he came back to him, he said again, at one point Gucci was adopted out and it didn't work out, and he texted at one point, like Gucci had an incident. And his back and his care wouldn't tell me what the incident was. Um, kind of got quiet after that. Joked about, did I ever tell you the time Gucci, uh, bit my son? And I was like, no. And he shouldn't have been around kids. So I was a little frustrated when he said and his, um, impact statement or whatever it's called, that uh, he would never put his son in danger 'cause he. He did and there's proof in him texting me that, um, and he said it was fine. He just bruised him, uh, and he found. A few days after that, he was like, Hey, I finally found, uh, Gucci, a child-free, animal free home. It's perfect. They love him. And the date that he told me he was adopted was actually the day that he euthanized him. So I, to this day, I have no idea why he euthanized Gucci. I don't know if it was, it was because of, just to get back at Amanda just to. We weren't sending him any more money, even though he wasn't asking for it. Um, everything kind of got quiet after that. And the biggest red flag looking back at this whole situation was that he never sent us the adopter's information. Um. Which now I know that's a huge red flag. Um, I only happened to find the first adopter because she commented on something Stephan posted saying how well Gucci was doing the first day. Um, so that's how I got contact with her. But he never sent us the adopt the other adoptions that happened. We never received paperwork on that. Um, so that's a little frustrating looking back at the whole situation. He would send, say like, Gucci's doing well and everything and act like it didn't happen. Um, I would reach out to him for help of o other dogs in our care that needed out, um, that needed his help. Um, he would send back advice or there was one dog, Ellie, that he was going back and forth with me on about considering taking, thank God he never took her. Um. She actually ended up getting adopted a few weeks after I sent him the message asking for help. Uh, so who knows what would've happened to her. Um, but even when Amanda came back and I got Brody from her, I would text him and be like, I'm having all these behavioral issues with Brody. Like, can you please help? We'd go back and forth and he'd gimme some advice or anything. And now looking back at it, like, I don't know what he, he could have done something to her. She was deaf. A lot of issues. Um, so I don't honestly want to even know what her life was like on, um, in Ohio. Um, but like, I just felt bad after the fact being like I was asking one of her potential abusers or help with her. Um, so that was frustrating. That was super frustrating. But after that, with all of our dogs, communication was normal with Stefan. And then I eventually got the call from Detective Conroy, and that was the first time we found anything out.

So that was the first time that you find out that Gucci was dead?

Yep. I remember it very vividly 'cause I did not believe it at first. Uh, he actually messaged me on Facebook, so I was like, oh, may, I don't know if this is a real person, whatever. So I actually called, um, I don't know if he knows this. I called, um. His station or whatever, and I was like, is this a real person? Like is this really one of your detectives? And they said, yeah. So I called him back and I remember it so vividly. I was just sitting on my bed in my apartment and he just told me Gucci was euthanized and told me the date. And I was like, that's the date Stephan told me he was adopted. So that was the first time I found out anything or anyone at our shelter found out anything about it. It was, and at this point, Stefan, I believe, was in California already, or on the process of going there.

Okay. And by this time, had Amanda passed already or was she still with us?

Uh, she had passed, yes, because he contacted me. I thought, I'm trying to think of the dates. I believe he contacted me in 2019. Um, and Amanda passed in 2018.

So looking back at, at all of this, you know, all the, all the damage just in, in general as a rescue, how has it affected you guys?

It affected us a lot. Um. Unfortunately, um, or fortunately I guess, uh, by the time this all came to light, a lot of the volunteers that were there with Gucci had since moved on from the shelter. So it was all fresh people. Um, so they didn't really understand the extent of it, um, as much as I did. And like the people who've been there for a very long time understood it. Um. We really lost trust in trainers, which is not a great thing when you're dealing with a no kill shelter that has behavioral case dogs. Um, very hesitant to bring anyone involved and if they, um, were involved, they were never left alone with one of our animals. A volunteer was always with them. Uh, we didn't have many come back, uh, just because we just weren't comfortable with it, even if the trainer was amazing. It just really affected that whole relationship that we had with really anybody, um, outside of the shelter. Uh, board and train was an absolute no for us. Um, we were petrified to send a dog anywhere. Um, that changed slightly, um, December of last year because we had a volunteer who was working, um, to, to. To get a degree. And part of it was that she had to work hand, hand in hand with the trainer and the board. And trainer is only an hour away from us. She would be there every week, checking in on the dog, handling the dog. Um, so we said yes to that. And so far that experience has been completely different than this. Absolutely phenomenal. Um, but it took until this point to trust them and. I honestly don't know if we would trust anybody else, just because we have a direct in with this trainer, um, who's there to see everything, um, which comforted us a lot. But we still went back and forth on it because, I mean, Stephan just ruined our view on trainers in general, which sucks because you want to work with trainers, um, and where we are located. There's not many, and we're kind of in the middle of nowhere. Uh, so there's not many trainers. There are no behavioralists at all. We'd have to drive at least two, two and a half hours to get to one. Um, so taking the opportunities of trainers locally, we should want to do, but we're still hesitant because it just left a bad feeling and it probably will for a long time.

He took away people's ability to trust and people's hope, because there are so many people that were hopeful that their dog could be treated and then all of a sudden they couldn't. You know, because, uh, because he wasn't a good trainer. He wasn't a trainer, period. Like he was afraid of dogs realistically. So it's, you know, he, yeah, he, for such a pit bull advocate, he was pit bull's worst enemy.

He really was. And it's so frustrating that he did all this, and I really hope that it doesn't disappear. I really hope that it can, is continued to be, um, like spoken about and mm-hmm. Even having some sort of law come out of it to protect animals that go to these types of places. Um, I mean, I just hope that when he is eventually out, it doesn't happen again. But I hope before he gets out, there's more actions taken to prevent it from ever happening again, and that no one stays quiet about him because his name should stay alive and. He needs to be talked about. And I just hope that it doesn't disappear, that everyone needs to be aware and know the red flags of a board and train that you're, you wanna work with, ask questions.

Now that we have talked about Gucci's story, let's bring back Jenny Falvey and discuss what happened with Gucci's story.

My name is Jenny Falvey. I am a Certified Behavior Consultant through the C-C-P-D-T Certified Professional dog trainer through C-C-P-D-T, um, Vic, uh, Victoria Stillwell, uh, trainer and, uh, fear Free certified trainer. And I've been doing this about 37 years. And I initially started by mentoring under people and worked my way up to learn as much as I could and then, um, sit for the exam, uh, for both of the certifications. I'm also the owner of Dog Smarts Unleashed, and we're a positive reinforcement, uh, facility, uh, with four locations. Uh, I'm also the president of Animal Charity of Ohio, which is the Humane Agency for Mahon County.

With, with Gucci, in my opinion, this was one of the most irresponsible ones because I mean, every, every animal that he became in contact with, it was irresponsible the way that he handled it. Mm-hmm. But Gucci was a dog that actually had known aggression issues, known aggression with animals, known aggression with women that, that dog did not know. Mm-hmm. And, you know, it, it's, this was totally setting this dog up first, unrealistic expectations to the group that had Gucci who thought, oh, maybe there is a chance because they were ready to have Gucci be a sanctuary dog. Right. And, you know, spend the rest, uh, you know, just at the sanctuary. But yet he gives this unrealistic expectation that I can make this dog adoptable and then take, you know, and, and not do anything.

Right? Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, yeah, clearly this was one that stood out more so than a lot of the other ones because it was so blatantly irresponsible. So here's a dog, as you mentioned, has all these aggression issues, um, in particular to women and other animals. And within 10 days of getting this dog into his facility, he places the dog in a foster home that is a woman and another dog, and no less a female dog. Um, and he Gucci immediately attacks the other dog. So now the dog gets returned. Um, so just absolutely sets this dog up for failure. Uh, he also, you know, multiple messages to the rescue basically. Saying she's cured in this two month period, like everything's great, she's wonderful. Um, but obviously it was not, and there's no way you could have safely addressed this, in my opinion, in that amount of time. In particular, having a second incident that occurred, another incident that occurs and then you're trying to rebound from that. So that one was shocking to me, uh, in terms of how quick he placed that dog. There was likely nothing done to ensure that this dog could enter that home safely. You know, no, couldn't find anything to show he had done any work. And even if he had 10 days is not long enough to even consider placing a dog with those issues, especially because they're thinking of keeping the dog as a sanctuary dog. So they knew the dog wasn't easily placeable, if at all.

Right. And you know, they had, they had Gucci from a really young age.

Mm-hmm.

And the aggression issues started showing up at a really young age. So, in, in your experience, is that kind of say, does that give you an idea as far as long or short term progress, if any, with a dog that you know, has behavior problems as a puppy?

Right. I mean, to me, when you're seeing those behavior problems, it's sort of a, a toss of a coin because I think sometimes when you see these dogs that have issues when they're young, you may be able to get ahead of that work with them to know they could be managed, not necessarily these behaviors, quote unquote fixed. But the other side of that is, is, you know, why is the dog showing that behavior at such a young age? And is this just going to escalate to a point where it's no longer, you know, feasible for the dog to live in a home with humans? So I've seen dogs that have shown behavior issues at a young age that have been worked with extensively and have made progress and been able to live out a, a successful life with management. But I have also seen puppies that have shown these issues at a young age and worsened very quickly. And in, you know, the instances in which I said it was successful, these were owned dogs. They were in a family home in which people were there to work with the dog and manage. I think in a shelter setting, it is so hard because you can't, it's very hard to find a shelter with the resources to be able to train these dogs and work with them outside of the shelter. And, you know, it, it's just not, it's not, most shelters are not fortunate enough to have that type of revenue and resources. And so I think looking at these young dogs in a shelter setting, if they're staying there, it's, I would think it's likely gonna worsen. I don't see that improving, unfortunately.

And I think that that's, that's what was really sad about Gucci, is the fact that I think, personally, I think Gucci's brain was broken. Mm-hmm. You know, and I don't know that that Gucci's brain could be unbroken, but the, the situation was arranged to, to allow, to allow the dog to be a dog, right? Mm-hmm. And to more importantly, safely for the dog and safely for the people around the dog. Yeah. Not in a situation where, yeah, we're going to be keeping this dog locked up in a sanctuary, you know, all the time with no exposure to anybody. And then if somebody has to deal with a dog, there's a bite risk or whatever. Mm-hmm. Like everything. I think that, I think, and I don't say this very often about sanctuaries, because I have very, very strong opinions about some sanctuaries. Mm-hmm. But I think that they actually had the right idea and they had the, yeah. The right execution of it. And, and in the end it was their heart in hoping that they could find a home.

Right. And I agree. I think they recognized that this wasn't going to be a, a safe placement. And what, you know, aggravated me so much about this is you took this dog that grew up in the shelter system and in 10 days you put him in a home. He's never lived, you know, he's not been in a home. He doesn't know the nuances of living in a home, let alone a new woman and a dog. I mean, just there, that was one of the most irresponsible and amateur things I saw in these cases. Yeah, I mean, you just, and, and to your point about sanctuaries, you know, I think I, I probably share some of the same thoughts about that, but I think in, in their organization, they really wanted to do, they had hope that this was gonna be different, you know, and, and I'm sure he. Um, told them that, and I'm sure that he, I mean, even in his messages to them, how, you know, she was so great and everything was so wonderful. And so of course you build on that and think, oh my gosh, all they wanted was for Gucci to be okay and have a, a home. You know? I mean, ultimately that's what it comes down to.

Yeah. And then what we see with a lot of these dogs was the lying about, everything's going great, everything's going fine. And Gucci found a home and Gucci was dead.

Yes. I mean, such, there was so much deceit and this was pervasive. Um, and, and it was that, or I'll just ignore completely. I just won't respond to people. As you saw in many of the cases when they were checking in, they just wouldn't respond. So it, you know, to me there was, you, you never had any intention of helping these dogs. You had intention of securing the funding for what you were doing, building your name at the cost of these dogs' lives, you know? Yeah. And these are just the ones we know about,

The following interview includes descriptions of domestic violence. If you or someone you know is in danger, contact the National Domestic Abuse Hotline at 1-800-799-7233

Alright, we have here Meg Z and she is going to discuss with us her part as far as like everything that happened. So thank you so much for being here. Yeah, thank you. So can you, let's, let's start, I guess, at the beginning, like when your relationship started,

yeah. Um, for context, I was in a relationship that wasn't like super healthy. Um, right before I met Stefan, I was a hairstylist, um, and had been in like yeah, an unhealthy relationship. And, um, I had just adopted my first dog that summer, Willie, um, from Franklin County Dog Shelter. And within like a month or two months from adopting Willie, I had, um, I saw another dog for adoption that looked like maybe a long lost. Dog, sibling of Willie's, her name was Maya. Um, and so I went to go view her at Franklin County Dog Shelter and she was super sick. Um, ended up passing on adopting her. Um, and after like a few weeks she was like, adopted out, returned, adopted out, returned. And then, I don't know if you remember this case, but um, she ended up having distemper. And then, um, Franklin County Dog Shelter used that to euthanize like over a hundred dogs. Um, that like devastated me. I felt like I. Guilt. Um, like if I would've adopted her, maybe, you know, they wouldn't have used that to euthanize so many dogs. I had no experience in animal rescue or anything. Um, so that was like the first time I realized that dogs were being euthanized at shelters. So, um, it threw me for a loop. I kinda started, um. Having some issues with hairstyling and kind of like dipping into like my first ever depressive episode. So I took a pause from work and during that time I was like starting to get involved in animal rescue. So that was like around September of 2016. Um, and so, uh, I had gone to a rally. Um, downtown Columbus. Um, and Stephan was there, um, and we made eye contact. I heard him speak, um, and I was like really impressed, you know, he is a great speaker. Um, so after that I wanted to reach out to him to see like if he had any like, uh, recommendations of how I could get involved. With animal rescue. So I sent him an email, and at this time my relationship that I was currently in was like, um, not great and like on the, on the fritz. So, um, we emailed a few times and then he was like, you know, I'd love to just like, take you out to lunch or something. So we met up, um, I think a few times for lunch. And during that course of time, you know, he's, he's just such a good speaker. Um, and, you know, I was dealing with like all these emotions that like I had never dealt with before. And he also kind of talked about how he's dealt with depression. So like we clicked on like that kind of part. Um, and so over the course of like a few weeks, uh, we had gotten to know each other a little bit more and. At that time, he had kind of convinced me to move out of my apartment with the boyfriend at the time, break up with him and come live and work with him in Marysville. So I had been living in Clintonville, um, and he kind of was like, you know, I think you just need to get outta that situation. And now, like, reflecting on it, it was very much like the savior complex, right? Like it was. Uh, saving me Right. From a terrible situation. Right. Um, so yeah, like one day I just like kind of. I was like, okay, I guess I should do this. Um, I mean, being around dogs, that was like literally my dream. I was like, okay. Um, so yeah, one day with his Jeep, he just came and packed up my stuff. Um, looking back at it as well, he tried to instigate a fight with my ex-boyfriend at the time, which I was just like, whoa, wild. Um, now all of these things are clicking like, you know. So anyway, I forget exactly what date it was that I officially moved out there, but it was I think late September, early October. Um, and granted I had. Zero experience in animal rescue. So I was fresh. I had no idea what to expect. Um, you know, I thought of him, I think like many other people, like a true professional in the field. Um, so I moved into this like little farmhouse. I'm not sure if you've been there, if you went there at all. Okay. Um, really worn down. Um. There was a barn, there was yards, like really worn down. I had no idea. You know, I was like, okay, maybe is the, this is animal rescue. Okay. So from that point, um, I started working for him more on the. Dog training aspect. So I was not involved anything with act. Um, I more so was in charge of hanging out with the house dogs and not the barn dogs. Um, and you know, I was scheduling like his appointments for like save them dog training and doing all like the customer service based stuff. Um. So if I can ask

you what, what was the difference as far as the house dogs and the barn dogs?

Yeah. He kind of always mentioned that the barn dogs were like, uh, the harder to deal with dogs, right? So like Remy was there. Zach was there. I think a few others maybe in and out. Um. Like I said, I just like went with the flow and I had no idea. So, uh, he said like he, that space was more so like for the volunteers of act to come and he, it was like his realm, like he did everything with the barn dogs. So I did mainly like, yeah, house dogs, right? Which were the dogs that were, I think. Being boarded for like the board and train with save them dog training. I don't know. Um, so anyway, during this time I did a lot of like, you know, the scheduling, um, and customer service for Save Them Dog training. Um, meanwhile, this entire time I did not get paid one penny. I didn't have to pay rent. Um, and, uh, he paid everything for food, but I. Was never paid for any of my work. Um, and he was gone all the time, uh, whether it be appointments, um, or just like running errands or, uh, I honestly have no idea what he was doing. Um, but he was always on the road, always traveling and whatever. So it was a lot of me with these dogs without any previous experience. Uh, you know, looking back at it, I'm like. Thankful I never got hurt.

Right?

Really? 'cause I like really had no experience. Um, but I just, I think there was like some taken advantage of just like my, like love for dogs. Um, and like this place was so run down, it was disgusting. Um, I tried really hard to like clean all the time and they were like mice and yeah, it was just very rundown and, and not good standards. Um, and so. Yeah, I, um, our relationship ended up just like being extremely, extremely toxic. Um, ironically more toxic than the previous relationship I was in. So I think there is something with like this pattern of like the savior. Mentality and, but then you're actually, the reality of the experience is far worse than what you had, what you were previously in. Um,

from listening to what you're saying, we hear about like. Survivors of domestic violence. That's that the perpetrator isolates them. Oh, it sounds like, you know, he took you away and then they take away their financial strength. Yeah. So that you have to be completely dependent. Mm-hmm. Uh, and then after a certain period of time, then they become emotionally or physically abusive.

Yep. Absolutely. And like I, I'm from a large family. I'm the youngest of eight kids. Um, I originally was from Bell, fountain, Ohio and then moved to Columbus. So Marysville was where we were living. It was right in the middle. Um, and I was extremely, uh, isolated from my family. Um, and. Truly, like looking back at it, I, yeah, it was exactly what you were talking about. Um, and not to say like, I am like this perfect person, right? I was having my own issues. Um, I was using alcohol to medicate. Um, and I've been in therapy for like eight years trying to like, resolve a lot of stuff. Um, and I didn't really. Understand how. Intense that situation was, um, until he got sentenced and then there was a huge weight that was just like lifted off. Um, so yeah, I never, looking back at it, really considered myself to be a victim of domestic violence. Looking at it. Absolutely. I mean, um, and it was less physical. Uh, there were some weird physical things, but it was more like, yeah, that emotional, um, like gaslighting, manipulation, the amount of times, like he would just scream and yell, um, and start fights for like no reason. Um. Yeah, it was, it was pretty intense. Um, and I think I mentioned this to James Renner, but like one of the situations that stands out to me the most of like, uh, a good example of kind of what happened. Um, Stephanie and I had been driving to a. Client's house a few hours away and he got really frustrated me at me for like a scheduling conflict that happened. Um, and it ended up being like a really intense fight in the car. And at one point in the fight he told me to, I was in the passenger seat, he told me to open the door so he could push me out into traffic. Wow. Um, yeah, he also abandoned me in a parking lot on Thanksgiving, um, because I, we got in an argument and he had his son with him and so he abandoned me and I had to have my sister come pick me up. Um. So he is doing this, these things to you in front of his child? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And he, um, you know, he used his previous girlfriend Shelby as a, um, a person that he like, always pinned me to, like, uh, his ex expectations of me were directly related to what he, his feelings towards Shelby in, in some way. Um, so yeah. All in all, it was just a very unhealthy aspect. Um, when it came to Remy specifically, if you wanna go down that, um, I, he kept everything very private. I never saw personal text messages, never saw personal emails or anything like that. Um, and I think we all can tell how he just is a pathological liar at this point. Um, so. If I can remember correctly, uh, 'cause that was so long ago. It was December 28th, so just after Christmas. And, um, his son was here, so I also had to take care of his son, um, when he was around as well. And we had just gotten home from an event. Um, and yeah, he, it was like late at night and he, I, I believe, or even the next day, I'm unsure. Wh which it was. But, um, he c basically came in from the barn and said, oh my gosh, Remy attacked a dog and, uh, attacked Zach and all this stuff. And I just was like, okay, I like to, I didn't know anything, so I took his word for, you know, like, okay. Remy must've been a really aggressive dog. Um, I had only been around Remy maybe like twice. Um, I took a picture of him and I think I was around like him. One other time. Um, so

Remy was

always outside in

the baring from the get go? Yes.

Yep. Yeah. Um, always. Um, and now like of course I have so much like shame and guilt and, you know, all that stuff for like, not knowing any better, um, right. Like goodness. Um, but yeah, so he told me the same story that he told everybody else. Um, I had no idea who. Um, you know, any of the previous rescues were of any of the dogs that he had, I had no contact with them. So I had no way of communicating. Um, I. About like what happened. So I had no idea he was lying to people. I had no idea. Like he didn't tell the rescues of the fight that happened, like, or, or whatever happened. Um, so it kind of just went on like no big deal. That's kind of like how he had it. He was like, oh yeah, like Remy was dangerous. So like, we need to put him down. And I was like, okay. So did he kill Zach or what's the other, did you ever see

the dog?

No, no, no, no, no. Um, and he's, I remember he specifically told me to not go to the barn. Um. I remember him mentioning that it was like a horri, same thing. He kind of said to the public when he came out with everything, that it was just like the most horrific scene he's ever experienced. So I have no idea. Um, and I have no idea what happened to Zach. Uh, yeah, the only thing I can think of I've been like really trying to rack my brain around is. He, um, he collected like a lot of stuff, like, it was like the outside property of the house had a lot of like garbage and all this stuff. And we took things to the dump because I was like trying to clean it and I was like, well, this is disgusting. Um, and so he went to the dump pretty often. So I've been like trying to like look back and think if they haven't found Zach's body like. I think he might've been dumped, you know, and like, this is totally suspicion. I don't know the answer. Um, but he did frequent the dump often. Um, so yeah, he told me the same thing he told everybody else, so,

I think I was the only person that he didn't tell exactly the same story. Okay. 'cause when he brought the, when he brought Remy in. He said that, um, that Remy had killed Zach and that Remy was a dangerous dog, so he had to be euthanized, but he, he just said like, yeah, you know, Zach's a little asshole. And he was loose and he was like. Taunting Remy from outside of the cage, and Remy was able to break through the cage and just grab them and kill them. So no blood, no blood bath, no disaster, no nothing. Just, oh, dog got loose and killed the other dog. And then that was it. Wow. And you know, because he's a dangerous dog, he has to be euthanized and and I believed him because he was the humane officer and like, I don't have any reason to doubt it. Right, right. So, but, but yeah, it's, it's really. It was really interesting to me when I started hearing about this whole, it was a blood bath. There was all these injuries, and then he's him saying that Remy was like so injured, that that was also part of the reason why he had to be euthanized. When the dog had no injuries, no blood on him, no nothing. He had like a little scratch on his noses. Wow.

Yeah, and I, I feel like that scratch could have come from anywhere, you know?

If he was outside all the time in the barn. I mean, just trying to dig underneath the cages, just trying to anything. So, I mean, there, it wasn't anything that I was suspicious that was from a bite or anything like that. Right, right. But

yeah,

but again, he didn't say that the dog was, you know, he, he didn't paint to me the traumatic event that he told everybody else.

Right. So,

yeah.

Yeah. Um, it's been so difficult to, 'cause I feel like that experience with Stefan has made me have a hard time understanding of what reality is. And I think when anyone's in the, the same space as somebody who lies so much, it's like you're questioning yourself. Um, and that's really messed with me for a long time. I, um, I didn't participate in the trial. Even though, um, I, there was part of me that really wanted to speak up, but, um, I was in, I've been struggling with like some severe depressions over the last few winters. Um, and, um, I was in a really rough spot, um, to the point where I don't think I would've been able to like, speak coherently without like falling apart. Um, so I. I chose not to participate. Um, but I can't tell you how thankful I am for everybody who did participate because, uh, yeah. Um, it's, yeah, I think he's getting what he deserves. Absolutely. And I also think part of this, you know, I wanted it to be. Like this specific case all about the dogs, and it would've been really hard for me to separate, you know, what he did to the dogs versus like the abuse he gave to females. So that was like, I didn't want to like, you know, sidetrack and, and to this realm. But yeah.

So you mentioned before, uh, and, and about what. How you say what ended the relationship? Yeah. So how did that, how did, how did everything come to an end?

Yeah. You know, I started having like suspicions of just like, you know, it wasn't a great relationship. Um, and we fought all the time and, um. It was just one of those situations where I just was starting to feel like extremely hopeless. So at that point, after had, having been isolated from my family, you know, I started reaching out to my family, um, and talking to friends. Um, I. And, uh, yeah, the, I think he had an issue with me because I stood up to him a lot. Um, so, uh, yeah, we really just didn't see eye to eye on a lot of things. Um, and so I think we both mutually were like, this is just not gonna work out kind of thing. Um, and like looking back, I know I probably try to like save the relationship even though I don't even think I had like, true, like. Feelings necessarily, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, uh, I moved out early March, um, and I remember I. My mom and my sister came and got me. And, um, talking to my sister, uh, she mentioned like the second all of my stuff and got into her car. She like gagged at the smell. Um, and it was just like a very just unclean kind of gross situation. Um, but I moved. Out. Um, and also I wanted to bring this up because this kind of shows how he was with like money in general. I think. Um, I, like I mentioned, I had never been paid by him, um, but I was previously a hairstylist, so I got a tax return and he convinced me to put my tax return in his bank account. Huh. Um, and at the end of our relationship I was asking for that money back. That was literally all the money I had was the tax return. Um, and you know, he got really, um, intense when I asked for that money back so much so that I had to like threaten like a lawyer. To get it back. So finally he met me at like a coffee shop and gave me the money back, but that just kind of showcases how he was with money. Um, and he kind of made it seem like, you know, gosh, if somebody just could like invest in me and like give me money and all this stuff, then like, you know, he was always searching for that. Um, if that makes sense. But, uh, I had. Been on a phone call with my friend, um, who had lived in Seattle and mentioned to her like kind of where I was at, and she, she was like, do you just need to get away? And I was like, yes, I would like to get away, please. Um, so at that time we decided, um, I decided that I was just gonna move to Seattle and kind of start fresh. Um, one of the best decisions I've made, I will say,

How surprised were you to find out about all this stuff that he had done? Because, you know, it's like we hear about, like you said, the one mistake, right? And it's like, okay, you know, somebody can make one mistake and whatever, but this is like a pattern of activity. Yeah. Cruelty.

I mean, um, physically sick. Um, I, yeah, I couldn't believe I was in such close contact with somebody who, um, was like that. Uh, and you know, I think it shows the skill that he has of, of lying. Um. So, yeah, I think the ironic part of all of this is like my original intent to be an animal rescue was something that the Franklin County Dog Shelter did. And um, it's just ironic that I ended up being in a situation where this guy was doing something similar.

I know that Amanda had contacted you. Yeah. Was that while you were in a relationship or was that after?

That was after. Yeah. She had sent me a, um, a few messages. Um, we didn't really talk that much, but we befriended each other on Facebook and she sent me a few messages, kind of just like I wanted to warn you. Um. Uh, and, um, you know, asking if he kind of turned psycho like he did with her. Um, and so we were able to exchange and, um, yeah, it, it broke my heart, um, to hear of her passing. I. And it also breaks my heart. Um, with Shelby. I don't, I never knew her personally obviously, so I don't wanna speak too much on that. But the way in which he used her to compare, like our relationship, um, she seemed like a really special human. Um, and just. Having experienced what I experienced in six months, I really, really feel for any woman who was around him for longer. Um, so yeah, I can only imagine, um, the trauma and abuse that these women, I. Had. Um, and so when all of this came to light and then all these new suspicions with, you know, the Mara Murray and all this stuff, I felt just like this need to like speak up to let people know that, you know, he was doing these horrible things to dogs, obviously like wild, but he was also abusing women.

Yeah. And there is a link between animal cruelty and interpersonal violence, and Absolutely people will use animals within domestic violence situations. Yeah. Um, so, you know, it, it, he fits a profile, right?

Uh, I can only imagine, I. Um, like other women who, uh, have dated him and what they're going through. So I just wanted to be a voice for that and wanted to be a voice for, um, unfortunately the dogs that I was around, I have no idea what happened to any of those dogs, which is like, it really bothers me so much. Yeah. And I wanna like. Make it clear like he preys on vulnerable people. So I was in a really vulnerable spot. Um, I was not dealing with stuff. I was starting to have depression, um, and. I think he latches onto dogs who are vulnerable and women who are vulnerable as well. So I wanted to make it clear, like I, it's not like I was, I've been like this perfect person and all the stuff. I was definitely dealing with some stuff. Um, but I think he, he takes advantage of that.

Yeah. I think that. Some people wonder about not just you, but other victims that did not come in to speak. Yeah, and in my experience, just from what I'm, what I see is that there is that concern of, I'm gonna come in, I'm gonna speak, I'm gonna be vulnerable, and nothing's gonna happen. And then people are going to look at me differently, right? And I'm going to be this victim or whatever, and then he's just gonna go free. And once he is sentenced though, and you know that he's being held responsible for his actions and he's put away so he cannot hurt anybody else, it does bring some degree of freedom.

Absolutely in validation. Um, because I think he was so good at manipulation where he made, I'm pretty sure any woman who's been around him, um, uh, can attest to this. Like he made us believe that we were the issue. So, like I said, it's really bent my understanding of reality. Um. And, and again, not to say I've never had an issue, of course, like no one's perfect. Um, but when it came to that specific relationship, I mean, yeah, he's a very skilled, skilled, um, con artist. So absolutely this, this gave lots of validation, um, and support. I like reconnected with a lot of people. Um. Because I think once this trial was happening, I just wanted to run so far away. I just like it, it brought up so many feelings of like abuse, um, and I was just like, I wish I like looking back, I wish I would've been able to participate, but I just don't think that was my time. I think this is now my time to speak up, you know? Um, so thank you so much for having me.

Yeah, no, thank you for sharing. You know, it's when, when I gave my victim statement, it was, I didn't realize how hard it was, right? Yeah. Because I'm always very objective and I work with animal cruelty and neglect. So the whole time I'm just focused on that. But then the victim impact statement was about me at a personal level, and I thought I was okay, and then I got up there and I was not. Okay. Yeah, and, and you know, it's. It makes me realize just how difficult it is Yes. To, to speak up and speak out. So I'm really thankful that, that you are here. Gosh.

Yeah. And I'm so thankful for everybody to have the courage, um, to stand up and I. Yeah. Like, goodness, it, it takes so much courage. So, yeah.

Yeah. Well, thank you so much. And again, I'm glad that you're, that you're doing better and you're in a i in a better place. Yes. And yeah, little by little but little forward. Yeah,

The link between human violence and animal violence is real, and a lot of people that harm animals, harm people, and vice versa. So, very important to speak, and I wanna say thanks to the people that spoke on today's episode about it. And again, if you or anyone you know is in need of help, please contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1(800)799-7233. Thank you for listening, and thank you for caring.