Andrew Rapaport.

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This is Apologetics Live to answer your questions.

Your host from Striving for Eternity Ministries, Andrew Rapaport.

I'm so confused.

Can't believe you can't hear it, Braden.

Well, welcome, everybody.

My name is Tom Shepard.

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But Andrew Rapaport is not here.

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It's a hostile takeover.

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So today we are going to.

We are going to do a show that we want to do, but first there is a live.

What do I.

What do I want to say?

A.

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So I.

I'll have to verify with Andrew about this, but, yeah, I feel like drinking hot coffee inside of a cold plunge must be one of the most unhealthiest things you can do to your body.

Well, okay, I'm just gonna say it right now.

I think this might be some Hollywood magic that Andrew is pulling, like just pulling the wool over our eyes.

What happens if that water isn't really cold that he' into.

There's no way.

Maybe he's shown the temperature gauge before.

Still, you can fake those things.

That's true.

Tom, why don't you tell people why we're actually here, though?

Because we are.

Yeah.

So we are actually here to do a show on the topic of evangelism.

And my good friends, I wanted to bring in, you know, Aaron Dufresne, who is a.

Who is getting ready.

Well, he's Grace Bible Church of.

Of Moore Park, California.

Is that correct?

Why don't you introduce yourself?

Tell.

Tell people what you Do I think.

You missed out church, though?

Did he?

Did I?

This is what we do on Open Air Theology.

I think I put C N U R C.

Well, at least I spelled grace correctly.

Yes.

Yeah.

My name is Aaron Dufresne.

Love the Lord Jesus Christ because he first loved me.

So that's the most important thing about me.

Married with two kids, Taltha, who is just turned eight.

I almost forgot how old she was.

And our son Hadden, who is 2.

And so, yeah, we are.

Braden made his way over from Idaho down to Moore park about a year ago and that sort of sparked a friendship between him and I.

And the Lord has since moved us over to Grace Bible Church of Moorpark with the blessing of both of the elders on Grace Community Church side and on their side.

And it has been a work of the Lord.

And so that's why it says Grace Bible Church.

Awesome.

Awesome.

Braden, introduce yourself.

Name's Braden Patterson.

I've been in Moore park for about six months now.

Six or seven months.

So it's, it's gone by quick, though.

I'm the pastor of Grace Bible Church of Moore Park.

It's a great blessing to be able to worship the Lord with Aaron, his family and the other saints of, of gbc.

And then also it's a great blessing to be co host with Tom Shepard on Open Air Theology.

If you haven't checked out that channel yet, go subscribe to Open Air Theology.

If you want more of this just chaos, misspelling the word church, poking fun of Andrew, that is where you need to go is open air Theology.

But in all, in all truth, it's a great blessing to be on here tonight to talk about the topic and then, yeah, I don't tell him, but I love Andrew.

I'm thankful that he's my friend.

So Andrew, Andrew is a, is a, is a blessing.

He really is.

And so also I am a co host with Andrew Rapaport on this show as well as a co host with Braden Patterson on Open Air Theology.

So why did we come here?

We didn't come here to just joke around and be comedians, although we do like to have fun.

Today we wanted to talk about the topic of evangelism.

And so we have different questions regarding.

On the topic of questions on the importance of evangelism.

Ten topics, ten questions on that, questions on the manner of evangelism and questions on the need for evangelism.

And so I could kick it off right now.

The reason why I wanted to bring in these guys especially is because we've actually, I'VE done ministry with Braden for quite some time on the podcast, as well as going out, going out on the streets and actually proclaiming Christ.

He's come to Texas.

I've actually gone to go and be a part of their ministry along with Aaron and Braden and proclaiming Christ.

Open airtheal in open air and one on one conversations.

So if you guys have questions, please feel free to.

To insert questions right there.

We will get to as many as possible, but we do have a lot here right off the bat.

Do you guys just want me to start it off and you guys just fill in?

Okay, questions.

Ten questions on the importance of evangelism.

Why is evangelism.

Evangelism essential for the mission of the church?

Because it is the mission of the church.

Go into all the world and preach the gospel.

It is the mission of the church.

It is the mission of the church.

So he puts Matthew 28, 19 and 20, right?

Yeah.

And even, even, even Ephesians 4, you know, shedding light on the why crisis or not why Christ ascended, but Christ ascending, giving gifts to men.

And the reason he did that was the building up the body of Christ so that they could equip the saints to do the work of the ministry.

And a big part of the work of the ministry holistically is to preach the gospel, not just to the church, but to the world.

That's right.

That was a pretty easy one.

Again, question.

Oh, we have a question here for you already, Aaron.

Look at this.

What are you working on?

Yeah, so I was actually gonna step in a second later, I mean, a minute ago, and say, people are probably wondering, like, why I'm.

What I'm doing multitasking.

So when Braden and Tom were gonna go on live and talk about Evangeline, because we're such good friends, I was like, I will join you guys while on rebinding.

So finishing up some projects, rebuilding some Bibles, and I'm a pretty good multitasker when it comes to at least theology and working on something else.

If it was something else, I probably couldn't pull it off, but that's right.

So.

Okay, a little bit more difficult question here.

The second question is, and this is on the manner of evangelism.

Everybody has their own way of.

Of sharing the gospel, but there are essentials that have to be communicated.

So this question is, should evangelism be confrontational, conversational, or both?

D.

All the above.

Yeah.

And it's all.

It's all led by the spirit, and it's situational, dependent.

I.

I know that I have been greatly blessed in my time of coming to know Christ, prior to me coming to know Christ, to have a firm word spoken, maybe even an offensive word in the sense of, you are a sinner, you are in need of Christ, that's offensive.

And so there will be sometimes that you have to have some more harsh language.

But it's.

It.

It's all dependent on the situation, the context, your own speaking ability, so on and so forth.

And I would even add to that, that it.

Even if it's not a quote, unquote strong word, because I know what you're getting at when you say that, that it, you know, like, kind of like the way John Stone used to say it was.

Yeah, you just gotta tell him, turn or burn, man.

And that was his strong way of obviously saying, you need to repent or else.

All evangelism really is confrontational because sin.

Because sin exists.

Right.

And so I think it's just nuanced and how that, like you said, about different situations and how that plays itself out.

And so you can be having a conversation, a conversational evangelism moment where it inevitably will be confrontational, even in conversation.

So even if the word is supplemented with very much of your gentleness and how you say it, it is still nonetheless confrontational because it's dealing with sin and righteousness and judgment.

Yeah.

I think even when we tell people that they need to turn and be saved, it even implies that they need to change.

Yes.

And.

And they need to change from going down the road that they're going on doing what is writing in their own eyes or their own thinking of God.

So a lot of it, too, is dependent on who we're actually evangelizing.

Right, Right.

Absolutely.

I mean, we could be going to.

Matter of fact, we're going to be doing a Pride event next month.

It's going to be very confrontational.

We're confronting people with blatant sin.

People who blatantly hate God and will tell you they hate God.

And so it's.

It.

Definitely.

But we do it always with grace and truth.

We don't.

We don't react the same way the world would react when we're evangelizing.

That's right.

Yeah.

So there's another one.

How did Jesus model evangelism for us?

He was conversational.

That's absolutely true, wasn't he?

I mean, we look at Mark 1:15, right.

Says, repent, repent and believe the gospel to everybody.

Everybody.

We should.

Should repent and believe the gospel.

And it says that he.

He started doing that as he entered into the city of Galilee.

Am I correct that?

Mark115.

And then also on that, too.

You would see that everywhere Jesus went, whether it was in the synagogues or elsewhere.

I'm thinking of the story of the paralytic man being lowered through the roof.

Even in that situation, the crowd is there with him because one text says that he was teaching, and then another text says that he was preaching.

And so then you see that he was doing it in somebody's house.

The synagogue example from Matthew 9, I believe it is Matthew 9.

People were coming to him, and he was preaching the Gospel again.

And so everywhere Jesus went, he was telling him about his life, death, burial, and resurrection in one way or another.

Right.

Yeah.

And I.

What specifically comes to my mind is the woman at the well in John 4, right.

Yeah.

And how he sat down thus by the well, weary from his journey, and had a conversation.

And that conversation was confrontational.

Yeah, by the end of it, for sure.

I mean, you think about that lady.

She was definitely confronted with her sin.

Yep.

Which.

Which brings me to another question here.

I mean, do we always.

And we actually had this conversation shortly, not long ago.

Do we always have to use the Ten Commandments or use the Ray Comfort way of sharing the Gospel and using the law to show people that they're sinners, or can we merely tell people about the goodness and the grace of Christ and who he is in his character?

Yes, I would say that.

That you can.

What is it?

Is it Romans?

I'd have to look it up now.

I can't think off the top of my head for the reference, but it talks about that the love of Christ is what compels people.

So there's.

There can.

There can be times where the law is.

What is the mirror to.

To demonstrate somebody's need for Christ.

But also there's a reality that if you're able to show the beauty of Christ to somebody, of course they're going to retract from.

In their sin in the sense of.

Of it's going to demonstrate they're a sinner when they're even looking at Christ.

But sometimes it's the love of Christ that helps bring somebody to know him.

So, yeah, I think it's interesting here, Kathy Dimming this.

This is pretty much the conversation that we were having the other day.

He, Jesus, would answer, you know, ask certain questions and expose the hearts of their people.

And so I like what Braden said, that we don't necessarily have to use the law to show somebody that they're a sinner.

But if we magnify Christ in the holiness of who he is and show him that he is God in His majesty and he's completely other.

He's completely set apart.

He's holy, holy, holy, and we are not.

The more we understand who Christ is, we would understand who we are compared to Him.

Yeah.

And also I would add, I think, I think a big portion of that whole idea of showing obviously the sinner is blinded to the beauty of Christ.

Like the God of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so they would not see the glory of the, of the person of Christ.

Albeit that is true preaching Christ.

Remember Spurgeon used to say that like the attraction of the cross.

Oh sure, if I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto myself.

And so there's this reality where I feel like.

What was I going to say?

Essentially like a part of that showing the sinner.

The beauty of Christ really has to do with proclaiming him for who he is, his worthiness, who he actually is.

Oh, because that's what I was going to say.

Because at the end of the day, what the person has to reckon with is the person of the Son of God.

It's not necessarily just the fact that they are, they've sinned against God, even though that is true.

It's who is Christ?

Who is Christ?

Who do you say that he is?

Because at the end of the day, that's the answer that everybody has to give.

And so using scripture, I think would be key in proclaiming him, you know, accurately to a sinner who may not know who he is and all of that.

Right, that's, that's very good.

Yeah.

So when we, let's walk through that, what can we, can we merely live a good life, live a good Christian life, be Christians in our life and, and, and, and mirror the gospel in our living?

In order to communicate the gospel, or do we actually have to use words?

Well, faith comes by hearing and hearing concerning the word of Christ.

Yeah.

So nobody can be seen.

We were just talking about this the other day.

Nobody can be saved apart from the, the word of God, knowing what he has said about both himself and them.

But I think we, we have to, we have to really start getting back to our roots, away from this, that idea that living the Christian life, it does have an attractive power.

It ought to have an attractive power where people look at the Christian's life and say, wow, right?

He, they recognize that he was with Jesus.

They recognize that there is something different about this Person, he has a holiness of life.

But, but again, because of the God of this world has blinded the mind of the unbelieving to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ.

How could we expect that somebody seeing a life is, is what would save them apart from the actual preaching of the gospel itself?

Right.

So.

So in other words, how can a person be made wise into salvation by simply looking at our life there.

There are things that have to be communicated, communicated to the sinner.

Right.

They would have to understand their condition before a holy God.

They have to understand that they are wicked.

They would have to understand that they deserve to be punished.

They would have to understand that the only way that they could be made righteous is through a substitute who came to live a life that we, you and I, were required to live, but cannot live.

So, so what, what would you start off with?

Would you start off with God or would you start off with their sin?

Would you start off with judgment?

When you're having that conversation, or even, even proclaiming, claiming it from this reach, what do you start with?

God, man, sin, judgment, hell.

I, I think I, I'm.

I would just go back.

I, I think the Ray Comfort method is a great method.

I think that there are so many good methods that are out there.

I would just.

I.

One thing I always do whenever I'm teaching evangelism to the church or to another person is I don't like to be overly dogmatic on a method.

And what I mean by that is, yes, it can be helpful for us to fall back on our methods that we use, but we should have a lot of tools in our tool belt.

And so let me give you.

There was one time over in Twin Falls, there is a bridge that people do very regrettable things off of.

And there was one time that I came upon a woman that was crying and look like she was in the state of mind to be expressing those thoughts.

Right.

I went in and had a conversation about come to Christ, you who are weary, and he will give you rest.

There wasn't much talk about the law because I was able to read the situation and see that this person needed rest in their life.

Yeah, another example.

I mean, there are so many examples.

Going to a Pride festival and seeing, seeing another person that, that was really contemplating things that might involve more a law and talking about God's created order.

And it really depends on the situation.

And so I think that's where we, as Christians, yes, it's okay to have a preferred method, but we should also have enough tools in our tool belt to be able to address every conversation in the moment as what it is.

Can I add to that too?

Just not add to it, actually.

Just I, I think that it's so important that the Christian is constantly.

And somebody said it earlier about reading the Bible too.

Read the Bible.

My mom keep reading the Bible to her.

So, but, but what I was just thinking was because it is the word of God that saves.

Sure.

So bond servant for Jesus.

Continue to, to read the Word to her and pray.

And that's another thing too.

So what I was going to say was two things, two aspects I think are so important that we forget in modern day evangelism sometimes because of methods.

We focus too much on our methods and they're important.

Just like Braden was saying, have those tools in your toolbox, but don't rely on the toolbox.

Be constantly in the Word and in prayer.

And I believe that Christ will use that more as your heart is softened by the Word and by the Holy Spirit.

To be just like Braden said at that moment.

He was there in the sovereignty and providence of God.

Right.

And he knew what word to speak to the person, obviously because of the situation.

But if you're not in the Word and in prayer, don't think that you're all of a sudden going to have some phenomenal thing to say.

You might be able to preach the gospel to somebody.

And apart from, you know, your constant own watching of your own heart and Word and in the Word and in prayer, God can still use that, of course.

But let's not forget the importance of it.

I, I think that's great.

I mean, and both of you guys hit on it.

I mean, outlines are great, but anybody can memorize an outline.

And any money, anybody could communicate a data dump and just communicate, you know, what it is to somebody.

But actually having an organic conversation because you've been with Christ is, is, is the most important thing.

I, I remember one time, Braden and I, we were, we were, we were in an establishment.

And this, this, this person that you had met.

A matter of fact, it was an attorney.

Yeah, A matter of fact, an attorney for Elon Musk.

If I, if I remember right, I.

Either that or for one of Elon's companies.

But regardless, very, very smart guy.

Yeah, he, he walks in and it was just about having a conversation about his son who has special needs.

Right?

Yeah.

And he was, he was wanting to know about baptism and boom, it immediately turned into, okay, well, now let's talk about baptism.

Why, why would we want him to be baptized.

And it just tied right in to communicating the gospel to this gentleman.

It would have been awkward to have stopped that conversation and then do a different method that didn't fit that occasion.

It would have been very awkward and not organic whatsoever.

That's where, you know, I.

I really believe that our evangelism needs to be built on the principle of.

Of one being obedient to God's commands.

As we already talked about.

But also we should.

We should love the person that's in front of us.

We should love.

Love them.

Looking at them and saying, you're in need of Christ.

But we should also love Christ enough to want to tell other people about him too.

And so if we're continually drawing nearer to God, whether it's through prayer and.

Or reading his words, at the same time, these things should grow our affections towards the lost in wanting to share the good news with them in a meaningful way.

I mean, you can tell when someone's having a conversation with you.

And their.

Their eyes, they're looking past you because they have the script in their mind.

Yeah.

Versus a person that's looking at your soul saying, I care for you.

I love you enough to tell you this.

Yeah.

And I.

I would just say that that's exactly right.

That your love for Christ is what fuels that.

Yeah.

Right.

Because no matter who you're talking to, the love of Christ controls us.

That's.

That's really good.

And this.

There's where I kind of wanted to go with it, because right now, even in reformed circles, I mean, you could.

You have a percentage of people in a.

A very small percentage of people.

Hey, Melissa, how are you doing in.

In the churches right now?

And we're talking about it being a love of Christ and knowing his mercy, knowing his love, knowing his compassion, knowing the grace that he's dispensed on us and that we didn't deserve his love or compassion or to be saved.

Why is it that the majority.

And.

And it is.

It's.

The majority of Christians are afraid to go out and share the gospel?

Why aren't we active in going out and sharing the gospel?

Fear of man over fear of God.

Yeah.

Love of self.

I mean, it's just really like, what am I going to look like at the end of this conversation?

Yeah.

When really it's not that you shouldn't care how you look like.

Yeah.

That you should care that you look like a Christian.

It's that no matter how the person perceives you to be, you know, that God, I was Just faithful to you, praise your name.

You caused me to be faithful to you.

And you walk away from that conversation knowing that no matter what, you know, because that's so foolish.

Yeah.

We live in a day and age where, you know, the, the gospel being proclaimed.

We're more concerned about how we're perceived or how we feel as we're doing it because it's, it can be uncomfortable and confrontational.

When you read the book of Acts and they were being beaten and rejoicing and it's like, we gotta, it's not that we should look for beatings, but man, we, we've got a long way to come if we can't look somebody in the eye with compassion, with Christ in our heart and be able to say to them those needed things that need to be said.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's right.

So what are some pros and cons of open air preaching that you guys have heard?

There's none.

There's no cons.

No cons.

I like that.

Why would you say there's no cons?

I mean, because a lot of people would say, wait a minute here you guys are going out in the middle of the public.

Isn't it, isn't it easier to catch, you know, a bee with honey than, than with vinegar?

Yeah, but that's just how you perceive it because that is honey.

That's not vinegar.

I love that.

It's the honey of the word.

Sure.

I think I remember when I first started discovering open air preaching and I was at a different church here in Simi, and they were vehemently against it because.

And he, I remember him saying from the pulpit, oh, you could be like those guys on YouTube that just go out and yell at everybody.

Right.

Or you could have a conversation inside of Starbucks or something.

And it's just like this.

That used to make me.

And you can't tell, but it used to make me really angry because the proclama, the open proclamation of the truth.

Oh.

So what I was going to say is yes, there are people who, who do it poorly, who aren't a part of a local church, who aren't sent out by their church, doing it under the authority of the elders with their blessing and prayers and support.

And, and of course there's different, you know, situations like that.

And I don't want to broad brush too much, but the reality is, is that if there exists a local church that somebody is a, a part of and as an evangelist coming out of and proclaiming the gospel from it, they have a accountability to their elders, not to be out there screaming at everybody in, in such a way as to be doing it for ostentation, that would be the vinegar.

But the one who's doing it in the spirit and power of the truth and with grace.

Well, grace is the word, right?

And you're doing it like you do it, Tom.

I'll just use you as an example, because the way that you go out and you said you've grown in this as the last couple years, is that, yes, you proclaim the hard truths of the gospel, sin and judgment and the beauty of Christ.

But then as people are passing, you're looking them in the eye when they stop at a, at a crosswalk and, and you're not talking over them and going, well, I see that you're there, but you're not really there because I'm preaching at everybody, right?

You care enough.

You're a person that's not out of his mind.

And that's why it's honey, because the vinegar person is probably out of his mind.

He can't connect with people.

But the person who's dispensing honey on the streets is somebody who cares for souls that can connect with people even as they walk by, because they know that, again, it's just reasonableness, I think, in open air preaching.

So, yeah, so on one end, and I, and I, and I.

I'm gonna comment on Melissa's comment here.

On one end, what you're saying is that there are preachers out there, that all they do is preach judgment.

You're going to hell, you're going to hell your judgment, and then there's no Christ in the message.

There's no turning from your sin to Christ.

There's always turning away from your sin.

Turn away from your sin, God's gonna judge you.

But then you're not giving them any hope to turn to.

There has to be.

But then on the opposite end of that spectrum, like Melissa, just say that there are a lot of evangelists that will go out there.

Wait a minute, wait a minute.

Jesus just loves you.

Jesus just loves you.

He's.

He's begging you to come to him.

What are you doing?

Why don't you just turn.

Because he loves you so much, and he's just hoping against hope that you will come.

What's wrong with that kind of preaching, Braden?

Oh, it's filling the people with a false idol that God will love them without any sort of change of heart, and that God will reward them without any change of heart.

And so there's no urgency of wanting to Repent and coming to know Christ and lean on him.

In fact, a message of just saying God loves you.

If that's the only message that's being preached.

Preached or herald, whether it's behind a pulpit week in, week out, or by the evangelist, you're not preaching Christ because we see God's wrath being poured out upon Christ.

And so you're totally missing the other side.

That also needs to be discussed.

That God lives obediently for you.

And even in all of his obedience, he's so obedient that he's passively obedient and dies in our place because there has to be a payment made.

And so it's a disservice to only talk about love.

Should we talk about love?

I.

Absolutely.

But.

Yeah, but that, that God demonstrates his love towards us even while we were yet sinners.

Sinners.

Christ came to die.

Yeah.

So what about, like, different methods of.

Should we adjust?

Let me, let me, let me read the question, actually, word for word.

Should we adapt our methods based on our audience, our methods of evangelism based on our audience?

And I, I guess in a way we kind of answered that in a way.

Right, right.

I was gonna say it goes back to what we were saying before.

Okay.

And there can be an adaptation to a certain extent.

Right.

The message doesn't change.

Measure.

The message never changes.

Sure.

The method may, in the sense that.

Right.

Well, I would also add, I think maybe, maybe this is going to be a question that's asked later on, but I think that churches should be modeling this.

Well, I think a pastor needs to be modeling this in their own life and encouraging and slowly but surely trying to have that be modeled in the people's lives too, of always doing evangelism, no matter where you would go.

And of course, the large events, showing up and participating in that, but also being able to go from the street corner and herald Christ to then the next day being in the coffee shop and herald Christ to the next day in the workplace.

Herald Christ and, and each one of those conversations might look different, but Christ is at the center of each one of those conversations.

I think you hit it on the head right there.

I mean, there are a lot of people that will only do open air preaching and never have that one on one conversation.

And then there's a lot of people that, well, maybe they aren't a gifted preacher, but you can still go out there to these big events.

And so you want to be able to go.

Just as long as you're going out there and telling people about Christ.

And the reality is this, that there are so many people that are walking around the world right now.

I mean, we can literally walk out our doors, go to the store, look around, and everybody that you see there, I mean, more than likely, you know, if you just are going home from church and you see people at the store, more than likely these people are not Christians.

You know, how can, how can we have compassion on them and just.

Or say that we love Christ and then just allow people to go around their day never knowing the urgency of the gospel, never knowing that we have an opportunity to be able to share something with them that, that will bring them hope and that, I mean, is it that we don't believe in the gospel?

Is that why we don't preach the gospel?

Because we don't believe in it?

I mean, if we truly believe that the gospel saved.

If we truly believe that, why aren't we communicating that more?

Yeah, and I, I think it is a lack of belief.

I mean, yes, I, I understand that there's, there's times that we're worried about how we're going to communicate it.

But you know, when I'm been reading Jonah, I'm going to be preaching at a conference, the Grace of Truth Conference in, in Longview.

And one of the things with Jonah was that he knew God, but he wasn't afraid of being unsuccessful and what he was going to proclaim.

He was afraid of being successful because he knew the power of God and the message that was going to be proclaimed.

But I don't think that's the reason why we don't proclaim it.

I think the reason why we don't proclaim it is because we don't believe it.

So I don't know.

Just, just my thoughts there, you guys.

Just.

If you guys have any questions, please, please ask us.

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How do I take that off?

Yeah, I definitely feel like he should say, don't try this at home.

Listen, I, I saw the steam coming off that.

That's no cold plunge.

That's a hot tub.

How come we can't see ourselves?

I.

I don't know.

Probably better that way.

Remove it from the screen, Tom.

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Yeah, so.

Okay, so let's, let's ask a couple more questions here.

Why isn't.

We answered the question.

Why isn't lifestyle evangelism alone sufficient?

Can.

Oh, yeah, we answered that one too.

What happens to those who never hear the gospel?

Hard question.

Well, it's hard.

It's the.

The truth of that answer is kind of hard.

I'll say that.

Well, I think that this also highlights the urgency.

Because I think this is referring to when, when people hear saying.

Are you actually saying that apart from the gospel, apart from anybody ever hearing the word of God, the gospel itself, that they're condemned forever?

What about the person overseas that.

That is on that island and the.

And missionaries never made it to him?

Are they all condemned?

I think this goes back.

A person doesn't go to hell because they heard the gospel.

A person goes to hell because they've sinned against God.

That's right.

Yeah.

So in reality, the fact that anyone would ever hear the gospel is a mighty gift and grace of, Of.

Of God.

Right in.

Of itself.

And so if God.

If there was no one that was ever preaching the gospel, we would all be going to hell.

Justly.

Yeah.

So I, I think that I usually that is wrapped up in an emotional trying to get a response to go with it.

Sometimes with some compo.

Like opponents of, Of.

Of that position, oh well, they have the light of nature and they'll.

If they had faith in just a God like, and they try to argue that and it's no, no, they need the gospel and apart from that, they are dead in their sins.

Right.

So.

So you're say basically saying that out of the.

I asked AI this one time, I said, okay, from the time of Adam until Now, about how many and taking in consideration, you know, the lifespan of the people during the time of Adam and Eve and.

And.

And Noah's age and all that, you know, they were living to 8, 900 years old.

How many people have actually been born on, you know, AI came up with what, about 25 to 30 billion.

Wow.

25 to 30 billion people that have been born and lived on this earth since.

Since the time of Adam till now.

That doesn't even seem like that many.

I mean, there's 8 billion living right now.

Yeah, it doesn't like that many when you think about all the years and.

Yeah, well, you figure 6,000 year old or 6,000 year old Earth, so, you know, generation to generation, eight, you know, eight billion people now.

So anyway, according.

That was according to AI Make.

Maybe the AI the robot doesn't know anything, but let's say there's 30 billion people that are born.

The fact of the matter is that when they're born, they have a severed relationship with God.

Correct?

Yeah.

At the moment of conception, they're dead in their trespasses and sins.

Right?

Yes.

Yes.

So.

No, Yeah.

I was just gonna say it comes back to what Braden said.

I think the.

The gracious, the.

The.

It's just like R.C.

used to say all the time.

Right.

It's like.

It's not.

We shouldn't be asking, why hasn't God saved so.

And so we should be asking, why has God saved anybody?

Amen.

So the reality is, is that Adam should have spent an eternity in hell.

At the moment that he sinned, God in his grace, decided to save a people out of his posterity.

He should have ended it all right then and there, and it should have been eternal hell.

So the question really stems from a misunderstanding of sin and the holiness of God.

Because when we do truly apprehend, because I don't think we can comprehend, but when we apprehend at least a measure of the holiness of God, the sinfulness of sin, there's this reality that comes into our hearts that says, why.

Why has he ever even thought about saving such a wretch as I or such a wretch as anybody?

Sure.

So let's talk on that real quick.

Braden and I know that you have a great way of communicating this.

Being under the covenant of Adam.

Explain that.

How did.

How did man.

How does man inherit sin?

Yeah.

It's because of the covenantal framework of scripture.

Adam was a federal head, federal being covenant.

He was our covenant head.

And everybody in whom he represented died with him when he Sinned.

They were plunged into sin through Adam.

The person who opposes this kind of doctrine, well, then you must then also oppose the covenantal federal headship of Christ, because that's exactly how it's talked about with how we get his righteousness is he who knew no sin became sin on our behalf so that we might be made the righteous of God in him.

You can go look at Romans 5, 12, 19 for more on that subject.

But the fact that Adam was able to take a breath and another breath and another and another breath and live another day and another day and another day was.

Was a grace in of itself.

But you can also see this principle even play out in the days of Noah.

The wickedness of man increases.

And it says that everybody's intentions were continually evil before the Lord.

Yeah.

And when it says everybody, it means everybody child, adult, Noah, because guess what?

They were all fallen in their sinful nature through Adam.

Right.

Noah was a sinful person.

And so in Genesis 6, 8, when it says that Noah found favor in the eyes of Lord, that is a gracious act of God being seen right there.

Yeah.

Noah was not deserving of that.

Noah was deserving of the flood.

Right.

Amen.

Yeah.

So anybody born of natural generation from the time of Adam is dead in their trespasses and sins, which should include everybody now living, everybody that has ever lived from.

From the time of Adam till now.

And unless God intervenes by his grace to save some, to dispense his.

His love, his special love on.

On somebody whom he chooses not based on anything that we do, good or bad, there's nothing that we could do to earn our salvation.

Nothing good enough that we could do to merit salvation.

But it's purely by God's sovereign choice to glorify himself in saving some.

So the.

The necessity of the gospel must be preached.

That is the means by which anybody can hear the gospel, where God can use the Holy Spirit through the preaching of the Word, to open their eyes and come to Christ.

So in Romans 10, it says.

What does Romans 10 teach us about the necessity of the preaching?

The necessity of the preaching of the gospel?

Let me quote Haps Addison real fast, because I love this.

I honestly.

Listen, Haps.

This is.

This is.

This is your mind.

This is.

I think this is your.

Your greatest quote I've ever heard him say.

And that is, there are the.

There are elect out there.

There are the sheep of God that don't even know that they're sheep yet.

And so we are commissioned to go forth with a message.

We're not, we're not commissioned to go and, and, and to save people.

We're commissioned to go forth with a message that is sweet, a message of life, a message of conquering death, a message that our king sends us forth with regardless of the fruit that we would see on that.

But we proclaim knowing that the sheep, the elect of God, will respond and come to him.

Whether it's in that moment, years later, minutes later, they will come.

They will hear the voice of their shepherd, Jesus Christ.

Yeah, Remember that when I first went on with you guys the very first time, and we were talking about evangelism and I, I still love that quote from I Forget His Name, but it was during a question and answers, and the question was posed about why do.

Why do Calvinists even get up in the morning if everybody's already going to be saved or whatever?

Why do they go out and preach the gospel if, like, why do they do anything?

And the answer was guaranteed success.

Right?

That's right.

Yeah.

He's gonna bring.

Come.

So a couple really hard questions here.

And, and I think we may have.

We may have differing opinions on this.

I don't know.

Here's, here's one question here by bond servants for Jesus.

A really hard one is babies in the womb for salvation are elect babies.

And so the question is, and this is a hard one because of the touchy subject, you know, what does the Bible say about babies in the womb?

What is your position, Aaron?

I.

I've never heard it.

I, I think I know Braden's.

And I think we would, we would agree on this.

Are all babies that have died in the womb elect?

I.

No wrong answers here.

I think that we're just.

Yeah, well, I would say I don't, I don't say this to save my own skin or anything.

I think I just honestly have to say that I would.

I would definitely defer to you guys and want to hear what you have to say.

Scripturally speaking, I, of course, landed more because I read John MacArthur's book on safe in the arms of God.

And the, the position that he holds is that Scripture overarchingly especially he points to the instance with David's child that he says that I will.

He will not come to me, but I will go to him.

He argues that that means that the baby was saved, so he'll see him in heaven.

I don't think.

And I say that just because that's really as far as I've gone.

So I wouldn't want to speak more than that because I don't really have a position on that.

Fully developed yet.

Enough to say with conviction that I believe one way or the other.

I'm, I'm open to either argument.

Yeah.

So I'll, I'll step in because I'm not a pastor.

Braden is a pastor, and I, I don't know if he wants to go ahead and, and share his, his, his view.

But my, my.

I would disagree with John MacArthur and not make a dogmatic stand and say that all babies are in heaven if they die.

I think that, that God is going to do what is right and that he will choose who he's going to save.

The fact that babies weren't saved in the flood doesn't.

Babies weren't saved in Sodom and Gomorrah during that judge Judgment.

Well, they weren't saved poorly in those.

Well, there's no evidence.

Yeah.

There was none righteous.

There was not 10 righteous.

Sodom and Gomorrah was.

Oh, okay.

So the, the save.

The saving of the righteous were the.

Yeah, I mean, I, I think if there were 10 righteous, which would mean.

Right.

With God.

Yeah.

That would have included.

Included babies.

Okay.

So.

So, so I think that there was judgment and, and those people, you know, it, it didn't appear to me that they were saved in any way.

But that's not to say that he can't choose to save whom he wills, even in the womb and.

Right.

And even, even like bond servants for Jesus is saying, you know, like, I think some would.

I, I think that's.

That is a pretty.

It's like this.

Okay.

I have the opportunity to.

And I, I'll try not to be long winded here, but I have to speak at least from a certain perspective, personal experience, while trying to form my own theology on this.

Right.

Contradictions on it.

This was a difficulty for me when I was.

I had the blessed opportunity to give the gospel to my, my, my wife's birth mother, who she met within the past two years, who then she met her birth grandfather through that time and he had cancer and he was dying.

And it happened just so in God's providence that at the timing that he was dying, we met them.

And he was so joyful to have met her.

But he was on his deathbed and I knew that I now had the opportunity and the responsibility to proclaim Christ to him before he died.

And so the Lord opened that door.

I had to walk through it real hard.

I basically had to slam it open because he was on his deathbed and I had to step out and ask him Jerry, can I please read the Scripture to you?

And he cried to me, saying, please, please, please.

And I'll never forget it.

I read the Scripture to him.

I took him to Psalm 90, talks to him about death and how our days pass away because of our sin.

Sin.

And then I brought him to the gospel, 2nd Corinthians 5:21.

And he grasps my hand, asking me, how do I get into Christ and his weak words.

And that was the first time I ever had an experience like that.

And then he lived for about another week or so.

And we went to see him those past couple of those.

Those days.

And I was looking for the fruit of, of a softened heart to the Gospel.

And I had more time to minister to him.

And I was ministering to him some things about where did I bring him?

I was talking to him about, oh, my goodness, I can't remember at the moment.

It was a difficult passage, basically.

And he was asking why, oh, it was with David and David's sin with Bathsheba.

And he felt the, the judgment was very harsh about.

Upon David and like, why would this happen?

Why would this happen?

So there was a sense in which.

And after that he did profess faith in Christ and then he died.

And so I had a conversation with my pastor at the time and I said, what do I say to the family when they come to me?

Like, I didn't expect the pastor to give me a word for word thing what I should say to the family, but man, I am struggling.

Like, what should I say to them when they come to me and say thank you for all of that?

And, but, you know, where do you think Jerry is or whatever?

Do I just say, well, he, he's in heaven.

Do I say that hard and fast or what?

And his.

I think his answer was really wise.

And it was what you said, Tom, the judge of all the earth will do.

Right?

Yeah.

And so there's this reality in which I don't know the state of his soul, however.

Yeah, God, and, and I know we're talking about babies prior to having a knowledge of salvation, but I think it still applies that God can do no wrong.

And so we should be content and at peace, the comforted even, and knowing that the judge of all the earth would do right.

I lost my brother when he was 19, and I don't know if he was saved.

And that was one of the things that I struggled with the most before coming to salvation in Christ.

But when I came to salvation in Christ, I could say with a clear conscience that if Luke was in hell.

It was because he deserved to be there.

Justly.

Yeah.

You know, I even heard.

I, I love that too.

And, and I would agree with you.

I, I think that.

And that's why I don't want to be dogmatic on it.

I wouldn't say that every baby is going to heaven, but at the same time, I don't think that I would say that every.

Yes, Braden Patterson.

I do.

I answer this because I think.

Oh, awesome.

Good.

This is honestly a lot.

Sorry I was so long winded, Braden.

No, that was good.

We can't be emotional when we answer questions like this.

And so with setting emotions on.

You mean base it on.

Base it on truth.

Base it on truth.

What is the Order of Salutis.

That God has predestined?

He's elected.

He has external call, internal call, justification, sanctification.

Yeah.

So.

So there's, There's.

Is there one means of salvation?

Christ Jesus.

Yes, Right there.

He's the way, the truth and the life.

Our confession, the 1689 actually touches on this.

In the chapter of Effectual Calling, it says elect infants.

So right there, I want to pause just real fast.

And it's putting forth this idea.

Can you and I know if an infant's elect or not?

No, we can't.

But it says in the, in the idea, if there is.

Elect infant.

Elect infants dying in their infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit who works when and where and how he pleases.

The same is true of every elect person who is incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.

The point of this is, is that even God saves by one means, and that's Christ.

And so if a child dies in infancy, it has to be by the blood of Christ that they would be saved.

Amen.

We.

And this is the issue that I have with the David view.

Even if that child did go to heaven and not that hypothetical, it was by the blood of Christ, the people that make it into an age of accountability issue or a lack of knowledge issue.

No, you're removing the federal headship that is taught in Scripture.

This person is suffering death because they first fall, fell in Adam.

The idea of death existing is because.

Because they have Adam existed.

Sin is inside of them.

They're suffering these things.

Yeah.

And so we have.

We.

We cannot comfort.

And I agree with you on Aaron on this, we cannot comfort somebody by going and telling them your child is in heaven.

Because we don't know.

We have to say God's character is this.

Yep.

And we need to keep our eyes focused upon Christ and Christ alone.

This.

That's it.

Yeah.

Right.

And at the same time.

At the same time, you're not putting them in hell either.

You're not.

Absolutely not.

Right.

It's.

It's focus on Christ in this time.

That's what exactly.

If.

If God sends infants to hell, he's just in doing so.

They were dead in Adam, and they were conceived in sin.

He was just in doing so.

If they do go to heaven, if any elect infant goes to heaven, if any infant goes to heaven, it's because they were elect.

They were regenerated.

They had faith in Christ.

Christ died for their sins, and it was by grace and grace alone that they're saved.

Yeah.

And it's one of those.

It's one of those topics that to answer, you have to set your emotions on the table and just say, what is the only means of salvation?

It's Christ.

Yes.

Yeah.

Not to kick a dead horse, but, you know, the only other pushback I would have on the whole David thing is, is that, you know how many unbelievers I've heard say, I know I'm going to see him again.

I know I'm going to see my husband who just passed away.

Yeah.

You know, he's in a better place.

You know, how many times have we heard that?

And that's.

But.

But I think what you guys hit on was great.

Well, I think.

I think in the case of David, too, I think he's talking about going to the grave.

I don't think he's talking about seeing him in heaven.

Good point.

It's.

What is the.

I can't remember the Hebrew word right now, off the top of my head of what?

I'm gonna go to Sheol.

I'm.

I'm gonna go to.

Why.

Why would I mourn when my child is already dead?

Mourning isn't going to bring the child back as well.

What David, I think, is getting out in that.

Yeah, I think that's good.

And I think that, you know, obviously I started this by saying, you know, I didn't have a hard and fast position on it, but I would say that.

That it has always been that.

And again, it comes from personal.

I had to work through this with my brother's death.

And the way.

The only way that I saw through that was.

It was a trust in the character of God, like you said, Braden.

So.

So it's actually not emotionless.

It's just the reality that my emotions are bolstered by the sovereignty and Goodness of God.

I mean, I could say with, with a clear.

Any believer should be able to say.

Any true believer should be able to say with a clear conscience that if so, and so is in hell, he deserves it.

But if he is in heaven, praise be to God.

Amen.

If I could say that about my own.

Huh?

He didn't deserve that if they're in heaven.

Right?

Exactly.

Exactly.

I grew up with Luke.

We were best friends for 18 years.

It absolutely shattered my world.

Obviously, you guys both know that.

It was before Christ, before, Before I was in Christ.

I'm sorry that he died.

So I was an absolute maniac wreck when he died.

And so coming to a knowledge of the truth, I think that every believer has a responsibility, parents who I even, you know, it's a difficult thing because obviously my mother, I think, reconciles this the way that most believers do, which is.

I know, I know, I know that he's in heaven.

And I do think, as much as I love my mother, I think that's a poor way of reconciling because again, it puts your emotions and your priorities above that of gods, because God is the one who knows, not us.

All right, so I, I don't quite understand your question here, but let's go ahead and read.

It says, how is this argument different from this, the Islamic doctrine of predestination?

Serious question.

Can you, can you go ahead and ex.

What's the, what is the Islamic doctrine of predestination?

How does it differ from.

I don't know what the Islamic doctrine of predestination is, but I can tell you it's not the Christian view.

Because the Christian view is centered around Christ.

Yeah, Bruce?

Yeah, yeah.

You know, the Romans 8, it says those whom he foreknew or those whom he beforehand loved, he predestined to be conformed to the image of the sun.

And so God's predestination, which I, I would say in, in the 1689, on chapter three and chapter five of God's decree and God's providence, He has decreed all things, but it's definitely not the Islamic view because the Islamic view doesn't have Christ in it.

And.

Right.

And we would say that everything's going to be centered upon Christ for His glory, to make him known, to bring sinners unto him, all those things.

Right.

Yeah.

So I don't know if you want to rephrase your question or not, but, you know, and I was just going to read Ephesians, chapter one.

It says, blessed be the God and Father and Our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in every spiritual blessings in the heavenly places, just as he chose us in him before the foundations of the world, we would be holy and blameless before him and love by predestining us into the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Him according to the.

The good pleasure of his will.

And so when you think about that.

And we would.

We would hold to that.

The Father predestines and he sends his Son to redeem that exact same group who he chose before the foundation of the world.

He sent his.

He sent the Holy Spirit to convict of our sins and.

And cleanse us or.

And seal us into the day of redemption.

So it is a.

It is a trinity.

A.

A trinity.

Salvation.

Salvation is of the Trinity.

Yeah.

Well, and I, I think, you know, I gotta get going here, but.

Yeah, I would, I would say too, that the gospel is for both Jew and Greek.

It's for the barbarian and the wise as well.

And so it's not.

It's not a level of mental assent to be able to rationalize the gospel that saves you.

It is the.

Our God changing your heart.

And that's going to look different for the person that's 80 years old, the person that's 90 years old on their deathbed, the person that is a day old out of the womb that I can't tell has been regenerated, but that's how God works, is that God can change the heart.

I mean, one place that I would go to, to at least wrestle with this some is that it would appear that John the Baptist recognized Christ while in the loom.

He leaped in the womb when.

When Christ is in the womb of Mary.

And so it.

We just have to remember that it's not the mental ascent, it's not the ability to think through things is what saves you.

It's.

It's through God doing a work inside of you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I.

I'm not very good.

Braden.

And Braden, if you got to go.

Well, I mean, we're going to stay on a couple more times, so thank you very much for joining us.

I love you, man.

Yeah, it's been a blessing.

Love you guys.

I love the questions and love the topic, of course.

Love you, Brad.

Love you guys.

All right, so Aaron and I, we're going to go ahead and.

Let's go ahead and tackle this here.

So he's.

He's talking about, I don't know, know what the, you know, as far as what.

Yeah.

Islam believes on predestination.

But I do want to Read what the Bible says about what Christianity says, what the God of the Bible says about predestination.

And he talks about people that he's.

He's foreknown in Ephesians 1, like I just said.

But I want to read Acts 13:48.

And he says that when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorying in the word of the Lord.

And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed they were appointed unto eternal life.

And through so God uses the means by the preaching of the gospel to go out, share the gospel with somebody that they would be convicted of their sin to real realize that they need a savior and they would confess with their mouth Lord Jesus and believe in their heart that God raised him from the dead.

That all happened because God appointed them unto eternal life.

That's right.

So I, I hope that answered your question.

Well also Romans 8.

Right.

And we talked about this earlier.

Yes.

If you want to go there, feel free.

Well, I'll just repeat it.

So those whom he foreknew, that is that foreknowledge also is in the original is speaking of not just someone you know in your head, it's somebody you know intimately onto on an intimate level.

And so those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son.

And so there's foreknowledge in God in which he's as many as appointed unto eternal life believe that was in time.

Yeah, but prior to time God foreknew.

So I don't know.

You know, I mean like yes, aware Islam itself denies and blasphemes as anti Trinitarians.

Yeah.

And so I definitely understand like if if he's saying that they will say similar things about it is destined beforehand whatever will happen, including who lives or die.

And I think a lot of that, I mean stems from the Bible itself.

Right.

And also but it's, it's, it's like this is what's amazing about the biblical doctrine.

It's not fatalism like you know, God chooses as a vindictive his, his character is what defines the whole entire under the Christians understanding of predestination and sovereignty is that again it all comes back down to the fact that not a person living deserves to be saved.

That's right.

And so in God's character in which we know yes, he's holy, yes, he's just.

But God is love.

And that's you know his last comment was they're anti Trinitarians this is what's so amazing about God being triune.

How can God be love?

Well, because the Father loves the Son, the Spirit loves the Father, the Son loves the Father.

It's a triune love that has been existing before we even existed.

We were created by that Trinitarian love.

One God, three persons manifest, you know, have in time, revealed, revealed themselves as the one true God who saves out of love.

And so this foreknowledge is a love of union that he would bring into union with himself.

Yeah, I think it's important too, Mr.

Khan.

And I, and I, we appreciate your, your questions on this.

So we, we are Calvinists.

We would, we would hold that God, you know, we would understand Tulip.

And that we're totally, totally depraved.

And we believe in unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and the perseverance of the saints.

And so when we say that we are all dead in our trespasses and sins just by, at the moment of conception, that it simply means that everybody that was ever born was dead.

Their, their relationship with the holy God was severed.

And unless God chooses to intervene to save some, to dispense his grace on any, that is and totally up to him.

And because he's holy and he's sovereign, he's all powerful, he has a right to choose to save any.

He didn't have to change anybody to save anybody.

He could have left everybody in their sins.

And Throne said, you know what?

I'm done with this.

Everybody's going to hell.

But he didn't.

He wanted to demonstrate his love and show his power, show his glory, show his majesty, give his son a bride, the church and, and he sent his Son to redeem his church, his people, just to demonstrate who he was, how gracious he was, how.

How loving he was, how great he was, how majestic he was, how holy he was.

And another in a flip side of his, that that is, is the wrath of God that's shown upon the unbelieving.

That the unbelieving deserve the wrath of God because of their unbelief and are held culpable for their unbelief.

Before we ever came to Christ, we were held culpable for the sin that we willfully loved and acted upon and lived in and hated the God that we knew existed.

And new was just and new was holy.

Even apart from the word of God, our consciences bore witness to the fact that God is holy.

We're made in his image.

And so another flip side of the coin that you're preaching now or proclaiming now, is the reality that, yes, God, out of his amazing, because of his character of love and grace and mercy, is also a God of wrath in which he must condemn that which threatens righteousness, that which would threaten that which is beautiful and true.

That's why.

That's what makes sin such a lie.

Because you think you could get pleasure from something that is a complete threat to your own humanity.

Because you're made in the image of God and it tears you apart and it totally tears down the fabric of how God has created you to worship him.

Right.

And yeah.

You, you think about it when you're, when you're out there communicating the gospel to somebody and you're telling people to repent and believe in Christ alone for eternal life.

The bottom line, and the reason why many don't is.

Is one.

We know the ultimate theological answer to that.

But the fact of the matter is, if people don't come to Christ is because they love their sin more than their Savior.

They love their sin more than their Creator.

Correct.

And.

And they would rather stay and not be a slave to Christ.

They would rather.

Yes.

Reign in their sin and indulge in their.

That's what they love.

That's.

That is.

That is what they are all about.

They're all about self.

They're out about.

They're all about pleasures.

Well.

And so think about everything that I just said.

Right.

Yeah.

That only can be said.

Yeah.

By a regenerate heart.

Said in truth by a regenerate heart.

Because there is no desire for that reality.

That's right.

Inside of the unbeliever.

Because of everything you just said that he loves.

He's fine.

That's why a lot of times it's like, oh, that's good.

That's.

I understand what you're saying, but I love my life.

I'm all set.

I don't need that stuff.

Yeah.

Because.

And I would actually rather have a person respond that way.

Correct.

And be honest.

You know, there's, you know, I've communicated the gospel with some people several times, and they would say, you know, I hear what you're saying and it makes sense.

Yeah.

God, if there is a God, he's sovereign and he gets to set the terms, but I don't want him.

Yeah.

I just don't care.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And.

And you know what?

Good for that person to at least acknowledge the fact instead of lie and say, I'm going to hear what you say, and I'm just gonna, I'm gonna believe and just straddle the fence everywhere, you know, and then live a life thinking that they're right with God because of a profession of faith that they made or a prayer they parroted.

Yeah.

And you hear a lot of those testimonies of people who said I.

I outwardly rejected it.

I mean, people told me all the time, and I just.

I wanted nothing to do with it.

Yeah.

But then, you know, God opened my eyes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mr.

Kahn, you're asking good questions.

See here.

What's this here?

Or maki worse or mock you.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, they.

They mocked Jesus.

They mocked our king.

They're gonna mock us.

You know, but as evangelists, you know, one.

One thing that.

As we go out and we street preach and stuff like that, and people will, you know, give us the finger and they'll shake their fist at us.

They're ultimately shaking their fist at God.

And the fact of the matter is this.

Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

And so when they do that, I throw that right at them.

Listen, you may think that you're getting away with, you know, shaking your fist at God right now, but there's gonna come a day when you will bow the knee and you will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, because he is.

And it's gonna happen.

So you have a chance now, you know, to.

To confess now.

So slightly.

Slightly off topic, Andrew is going to say, what do you think of the free grace movement?

What's the free grace movement?

Yeah, define the free grace.

That.

Yeah.

Free grace.

Yes.

Bond, Servant.

Yeah.

Define what.

What free grade the free grace movement is.

I'm not sure.

I.

I think if.

If you're referring to the.

The external call, I mean, as evangelists, as.

As Christians, when we.

Because we don't see the giant E on everybody's shirt, I think it was Spurgeon that says, I don't go around lifting up the shirts of every believer to look for a.

An E on there for elect.

So we make a general call and.

And God will work out who he's going to save.

So it is.

I learned this a lot from Ricardi's preaching, which was really good.

Is that it is a.

It's a genuine call.

Yes.

I think, I think the.

The argument.

And when I say genuine, I don't mean like we're being genuine when we.

When we say means that if you will come, God will save you.

And.

But we also understand from the Bible that nobody can come unless God calls them.

However, that does not make it an un.

An ingenuous.

What's the word?

Not genuine call to the unbeliever simply because.

Because he is held responsible for his sin.

Yeah.

And his.

And also his hatred of God.

However, the outward call of the gospel is genuine in the sense that let all who thirst come and drink and buy without wine and milk, without money, without price.

And so it doesn't cost anything but believing.

And I think I know where they're going now, and I see it.

Let's go to Romans chapter six right there.

And they were saying, it's.

It's Antoni antinomianism.

Basically, grace covers all sins.

So just basically go ahead and live any way that you want to live.

Romans, chapter six, verses one.

It says, what shall we say them?

Are we to continue in sin that grace may increase, May it never be?

How shall we who die to sin still live in it?

Or do you not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death.

Therefore we were buried with him through baptism into death.

So that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, certainly we should be in the likeness of his resurrected resurrection.

Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves of sin.

For he who has died has been justified from sin.

Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him, knowing that Christ has been raised from the dead as is never going to die again.

Death no longer has.

Has master over him.

Let me keep on going real quick.

For the death that he died, he died once and for all.

But the life that he lives, he lives to God.

Even so, consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Listen, if you guys.

If you guys say that grace is just going to cover my sin and you're going to say that you repent of your sin, you're going to come to Christ and.

And it's free gays.

And then live any way that you want to live.

You're not a Christian.

You're not a Christian if you think that you can.

You can live any way that you want to live without repentance.

Reconcile it to this too.

Yeah.

What did Jesus come to do to destroy the works of the devil?

What are the works of the devil?

Lawlessness.

What is lawlessness?

Sin.

Sin is lawlessness.

Therefore if I'm proclaiming Christ, it is necessarily tied to a turning away from that which Crucifixion.

The one I love.

Preach.

Yeah.

Don't tell me that because then it's going to confuse me and I'm going to stop.

I like it though.

Keep going.

I'm just kidding.

Yeah.

I mean I just think what I was thinking as you were reading that entire text of Romans 6 is the reason why it's woven into all of the New Testament letters.

This and of course Paul's theology there is how, how if we're.

If we've died with Christ.

Don't you know that those who have died with him have also been raised with him to life and the whole system.

God's economy of salvation is just that, salvation.

So you have to ask yourself, saved from what?

From what?

Yeah, saved from the wrath of God.

Why does God have wrath?

Because of sin.

What did Christ die for?

For sin.

And so therefore for some reason we can believe that somebody who revels in sin.

Do Christians struggle with sin?

Of course.

But nobody revels in it.

Nobody lives a life in which demonstrates.

In their entire life demonstrates a lack of turning away from that which crucified Christ and living in it.

It's completely inconsistent and incoherent to the entire biblical witness.

And so it's really an easy answer.

Like you were saying you're not a Christian.

Yeah.

If you're living that way.

But it's always tempered with.

Because you know, the Puritans were so good at this.

Right.

Is that they always wrote on.

They always had titles that said certain cases.

Cases of conscience.

And those certain cases of conscience were that they wanted to apply the word of God appropriately to every, every person's.

Every different congregant's situation that they were dealing with in their minds.

Because there can be people within the church who truly do love Christ but struggling.

They're either struggling with sin or just these plain and simple assurance of their salvation.

And then there's others who like trying to think of the letter right now.

It's not Jude, it's that they need.

Oh man.

There's others who are unruly and.

And maybe living may be Christians, truly Christians, but living in such a way that is dishonored to Christ and they need to be confronted sharply about that.

That they would come back to a true understanding of.

Of what it is they're doing.

Right.

I mean you, you think about the heart change when, when a person comes to Christ and that old man dies.

And of course you aren't going to be, you know, a mature Christian already, but you are going to show fruit of repentance.

You are going to show a hatred for sin.

You know, and.

And yes, people grow at different.

Different times and different levels.

Right.

You know, as we submit to Christ, it doesn't mean that you're not necessarily a Christian.

You may struggle, but what does the Bible say in First John?

I think he, one of the guys posted it first John 1:9.

And this is for the believer that if you confess your sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness.

And that.

That is for the believer, the person who has already come to Christ, that we want to continue to be cleansed.

That we should be waking up in the morning with the purpose of killing our sin with the waking up the morning and spending time within in his word and living for him.

Go ahead.

No, I was just gonna say one of the other ways that we can do that is by sharing Christ.

If you wake up in the morning with the purpose of saying, you know, I'm gonna vow to you, Lord, that I'm gonna go communicate the gospel with somebody that is going to be on your mind and you're going to be meditating on the person and work and what you're going to say to the person that the first person that you sing or the second person or whatever, One person that you're going to meet throughout the day.

Yeah.

You're meditating on the gospel.

Yep.

You also walk away from those conversations edified in such a way that it's a sin killer.

You want to read your Bible more after you've had those conversations?

Because the Spirit of God, because none of this is from us.

It's all from the Spirit of God.

Spirit of God has given us gifts, and those gifts are tied to his Word.

And when we minister the Word, the Spirit of God's working in us and we're obeying.

And so there's this confluence between my obedience which is called of me, and the action of God in his sanctifying me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Hey, I like that, Kathy.

Living each day for his glory.

So we should.

Should the Christian not wake up in the morning and say, lord, how.

How can I glorify your name today?

And why?

And why?

Because of his grace.

Because he deserves it.

Because he deserves my worship and my servitude.

My.

My good works to my.

To my brothers and sisters, you know, all of those things.

Bring him glory.

How can we live every day to Glorify him.

Amen.

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We have a.

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So Andrew Graham says, in addition, are, Are we best to steer clear of these people.

What, what people are we talking about?

I'm not, I'm not sure.

Probably the, The.

The.

The free grace people.

Because he's.

No, no, I, I think more than anything, if we can.

Again, if a person is, is.

Is remaining in their sin, I, I think especially if they're professing Christians, you know, we, we need to confront them and figure and show them, show them where, where their error is.

That we cannot continue in sin so that grace may abound.

We cannot continue to live in what you wait.

And so there's conversations that we can have.

I mean, figure this.

I mean, if, if, if you, if, if a person has had a, A child, a brand new child, Aaron, when you very first had got married and, and you had your daughter, I bet your life pretty significantly changed, did it not?

Absolutely.

So I mean, you think about that, that, that we as parents, as mom and dads and, and we're as a married couple and the next thing you know, we have a, we have a baby and our life has changed.

We're talking about that when we come to Christ, we are brand new creatures.

We're talking about the Holy Spirit living inside of us, changing us.

It is a radical change.

It's a radical change and it's a repenting, a turning away from the sins that God hates and turning to Christ.

I, I think we have a responsibility to tell people that, that if they think that they could live anywhere that they want to live, that they're not Christians.

And I don't Know if he's thinking as he asked that question because it's not as clear.

But if you're thinking, Andrew, about fellowship, because that's one thing.

And I think that there can, let's say there's free grace people, even the context of our own local setting or a church near us or something like that, and they want to come, you know, hang with us as if they are just like us.

That's when you need to press harder on what Tom is saying.

So I think fellowship is off limits to a certain extent.

If somebody's living, I mean, have nothing that, you know, the scripture says have nothing to do with the, the brother who Paul said to the Corinthians.

Right.

About somebody who proclaims to be a brother but is a drunkard or living in sexual immorality and you know, not to even eat with such a one.

Well, why is that?

Because you don't want to give credence to his.

His life.

That doesn't line up with scripture.

That doesn't mean don't go have coffee with them and proclaim those truths that Tom was saying.

We need to press those things to him.

But don't have fellowship and be quiet and act like nothing.

That everything's okay with that.

With that.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Good, good point there.

So Mr.

Kahn, you were saying that, you know, how would we defend against other Christians that say Calvinism and predestination doctrine is no different than Islam.

Listen, I mean so we as Christians know that, that we cannot agree on anything unless we first agree how to agree.

Right.

I mean we have the Bible, we have the Scriptures.

So go through the scriptures and take them to the Scriptures.

Take them to Romans 8, take them to Romans 9, take them to Ephesians 1, take them to Acts 13:48 and show them that God is sovereign and that he does choose who he's going to save.

Look at.

You could go to the Old Testament.

It's all through the altar, through the scriptures that he chose a particular people who the nation Israel to, to.

To deliver them out of Egypt to show a special covenant, have a special covenant people the nation Israel.

God chooses because he sets the terms because he is sovereign.

He has a right to do so.

So the, the argument that they're throwing up is the straw man argument.

Take them to the Bible and have everybody rest in what the Bible says.

Amen.

Yeah.

Let's see here.

Andrew is saying bond servant Tom is causing a lot of pain.

Some people care about praise that I am YouTube channel source where I point you I don't understand that.

But okay, let's see here.

Foreign.

Let's see, how is Calvinism any, any way or form like Islam?

Yeah, so I, I think basically.

Yeah John, I think that they were basically saying or holding on.

I think there are some people that just simply hate Calvinism, you know word.

They don't understand it.

They don't understand total depravity.

They don't understand unconditional election.

And sometimes when we don't even use the word, I, I think that we could actually show people the, the, the tips of Calvinism or, or go through the scriptures of Calvinism and people will agree with it.

But if you use that word they're just gonna hate it and go oh no, that, that's, that's is, that's Islam.

That's what they believe.

You know, so just a straw man that they're gonna throw out.

So yeah, yeah, let's see here.

Let's.

We got one more pardon.

If I may ask just one other question.

You're pardoned.

Yeah, part if.

Yeah, that's right.

If anti Calvinist fireback with selected Bible text Scriptures as well.

Yeah.

So many times that they, they do.

Some people would say use John 3:16 of God, so love the world.

Okay, well let's talk about that.

We would say that too.

It doesn't take away from the fact that he gets to choose who he serves.

Here's the thing.

When, when you think about, when you think about the Trinitarian, the, the Trinity in, in the, in the, in salvation of men that the Father predestines and that he sends His Son to redeem those that exact same group.

He didn't send His Son to make salvation possible.

Any Armenian is any, any person who's an Armenian would say that the Father predestines.

They would just define it differently.

But when you, when you look at the fact that he sends His Son to make salvation possible.

No, he didn't.

That you're severing.

You're severing what, what the Godhead is.

You're severing the functions within the Godhead.

You cannot have the Father choosing a particular people and then make it send the Son this to die for of people for whom the Father didn't choose.

And so you cannot sever the God.

That's good.

Yeah.

I was gonna also say, you know, that's a good question.

As far as they'll come back with others.

They, they go further.

Hello, they.

I say they.

I'm speaking generally.

Anybody who would I guess try to swing the axe of the Word with some of the all statements of the Bible.

And the one that comes to my mind immediately is first Timothy, first Timothy two.

Where am I?

Oh, I'm in second Timothy.

Good grief.

Sorry.

That.

Guys, I'm taking a long time here.

First Timothy 4, 2, 4.

Just starting from verse one, first of all, then I exhort that petitions and prayers request and thanksgiving be made for all men.

You know, that's a, that's another good example right there.

Before I touch on that, I'll keep reading.

For kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth.

Now, this text, people.

And then, well, actually, so verse five, for there is one God and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all.

And before I even speak on this, I'll just say that I think an excellent resource, if anybody wants to look further into this, is Mike Riccardi's book on To Save Sinners is the title.

And he touches on these alls that are in the Bible.

And if you look in the context, and the point that he proves throughout his whole work is that in the context, the all is not all without exception, but it's all without distinction.

And there's a, you know, the, the book gives a really great argument for that and a very cohesive argument for that.

But just briefly, if Paul here is asking that petitions and prayers, requests and thanksgiving be made for all men without exception.

Aaron, I got to take this real quick call for work.

Okay.

Hey, I'm just going.

So you're good.

Okay, I'm still going.

So if we were to, if Paul was asking us to pray for all men without exception, it would be impossible.

And not to mention that.

But yes, all, of course, all of the elect, Jesse, but the same in verse six, who gave himself as a ransom for all that is he's.

He's given himself a ransom for all of those without distinction, all types and sorts of people from every tribe and every nation, every tongue.

That's the point, because Paul is even writing to Timothy.

If you go back in chapter one, he's talking about people who are simply wanting to be teachers of the law.

And so their focus, their focus is on just the Jewish nation and, and the use of the law and all of that.

And then what he wants to do in Writing to Timothy here is talking about the fact that God desires all to be saved, not just, not just those under the law, that is the Jewish nation, but, but all without distinction, not all without exception.

So I am not sure if you guys.

I'm going to read some of the comments here and if.

Clarify one more.

John, I'll answer your first question.

Are you guys part of a ministry group?

No, not really part of a ministry group.

Tom is a member at Grace Church of Bourne in Bernie, Texas and he's an open air evangelist and I'm over here in California, just a member of Grace Bible Church of Moorpark, not a part of a specific ministry group.

Let me keep reading some of these comments.

Yeah, some translations say gave a ransom for many.

So again, you would just have to go back and see if that is an accurate translation for that word.

That word is specifically referring to all without distinction.

Giving a generalization of all without distinction, not all without exception.

Calvinism is a system of thought that's internal to Christians in all honesty, it's internal to Protestants.

So yes would say non Calvinists are Christians.

Sorry about that.

I had a, had an important phone call for work.

Yeah, I figured it was important.

That's okay.

What I was, what I was hitting on and, and I kind of let people know that a good resource for this when we're talking about people firing back with well, what about the alls of the Bible, not just the whosoever, you know, will and, and all of that.

But in the example that I gave was first Timothy 2, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all.

And what I was saying was that, and you know, Mike Riccardi's book To Save Sinners gives a, a very in depth treatment of this that I really recommend that everyone would go and read because yeah, if you don't agree with it, you can, you can argue against it or it will just help you in general.

Obviously we would, we would say, and I'm sure you probably said this when I was even on the phone, that if he died for all, then everybody would be saved.

So it wasn't all.

It wasn't all without distinction.

It was all with internal.

Oh yeah.

It wasn't all without exception.

Right.

It was all without, it was all without distinction.

All people groups.

Exactly.

And that's the point I was making while you're on the phone.

Yeah, yeah.

It was just this reality because Mike does a much better job of the exegetical work in, in first Timothy one and how he's even talking about the law and Things like that.

Those who want to be teachers of the law, that is their, their, their design there is to be just about the nation, Israel and the law.

Whereas then he goes on to say, pray for all people.

God desires all men to be saved, not just the Jews.

Yeah.

And so it's all without distinction.

Yeah.

So John was saying, I had a great debate scheduled with the free grace person, great guy, missionary, but he doesn't want to engage further.

He had two hour dialogue with him.

You know, it's just amazing.

How can we say that?

That just gets me going on that we could go on living any way that we want to live still in our sin.

I think we, we beat that one to death, I think.

Yeah.

And I think the argument that the people make is because they, they feel that they're somehow restraining the grace of God.

If you tell somebody that they're not saved, if they are not living according to God's word.

And so therefore it would be like God's grace is free to all.

And so whether or not a person is showing the fruits, that doesn't mean that they're not saved.

Because if they have believed in Jesus Christ, then they're saved.

That would be the hard and fast.

You know, and, and meanwhile you could indulge in your favorite sins and say, hey, I'm covered, you know.

No, that's, that's horrible.

That is a.

You know, people.

And you know, it's a sad thing that he's actually a missionary because he, if he, all he's saying is all you got to do is pray a prayer.

All you got to do is come to Christ.

It's as simple as that.

No, you got to take up your cross daily.

You got to lay down your life.

You got to be willing to die for the sake of Christ, you know?

Yeah.

And I even, I even think that defining.

What does it mean to come to Christ.

Yeah, to come to Christ.

Take up your cross daily.

Yeah.

And follow him.

It all has to do with dying.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, good stuff, guys.

We are at an hour and 35 minutes, you guys, we.

And I gotta go to work in the morning.

I thank you guys so much for watching.

We have 60 listeners right now.

Any final words there, Aaron?

I would just say that one, definitely go and get Mike Ricardi's book on to save sinners.

Two, go get John Flavel's volume one out of his seven volumes.

Volume one covers 42 persons, 42 persons, 42 sermons on the person of Christ.

It is the best articulation of preached Christology you'll ever read, and then supplement that by reading John Owens, the Glory of Christ and the Person of Christ, two different works.

Thank you, Kathy.

It was good being on.

But those are three books I feel like every Christian should have in their library.

Specifically though John Flavel and John Owen and maybe some listeners have heard it.

But I always urge every believer to, of course, go to the.

Now I'm getting distracted.

Yeah.

You could hit that if you want to.

Yeah.

So we have to be careful about the doctrine of pietism, the gospel plus works.

Yeah.

There has to be a balance of.

I think who said it, that essentially every time you preach the gospel.

I think Paul Washer was talking about this, that when you preach the gospel, if you're not.

If somebody isn't.

If somebody isn't coming after you for being a antinomian, you're probably preaching the gospel wrong.

So there's a sense in which.

Which I guess you'd have to draw out the.

The meaning of that.

But it is all of grace, of course.

Yeah.

But there's a tension in scripture that.

That just cannot be unforgotten.

It has to be talked about that.

Yeah.

Pietism would say that all of these things that I'm doing for God are causing me to be holier so that God has a greater recognition and a love for me in some sort of fashion.

And that's absolutely contrary to scripture as well.

Yeah.

Especially when we're talking about the means of salvation that we have access into this grace in which we stand through faith.

It is through faith.

Faith in the person and work of Christ alone.

There's no doubt about that.

But at the same time, and you know, and I've heard Paul Washer say this is that if you were on trial, if somebody was trying to put you in handcuffs and arrest you for being a Christian, is there enough evidence in your life to show that you truly have laid down your life?

Have you taken up the cross daily and walking with him?

Is there enough evidence in your life that if somebody was to try you for being a Christian, that you would be found guilty?

And if you can't say yes to that, you need to answer.

You need to check your heart.

You should be growing in holiness.

You should be bearing fruit.

Yes.

The fruits of salvation, the works of the fruit.

For we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works.

Right.

Yeah.

Ages 2, 10.

Not only that, but Paul's desire in Philippians was that he might know him and the power of his resurrection.

Well, what was that?

That was tied to the fellowship of his sufferings being found in him not having a righteousness of his own, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ that I may know him.

Verse 10 of chapter 3.

And the power of his resurrection?

Well, what is the power of his resurrection?

Well, it's the fellowship of his sufferings being conformed to his death in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

And the the goal for the prize of the upper call of God in Christ Jesus, it's all sanctification.

And then let us therefore as many as are perfect, think this way, that is that our thinking is tied to the word of God and let it be that way.

Let us hold to that standard by which we've obtained walking in obedience.

And I was also looking for the portion for it is God who is at work in you will into work for his good pleasure.

Why I've, I'm like so tired that, that the one portion of scripture that is like chapter two, verse 12.

So then my Beloved, just as you've always obeyed, so here's the argument against pietism.

It's not that we're obeying because of we think that makes us something more special in God's sight.

We're perfectly accepted in the Beloved because of Christ and his perfect righteousness.

However, in this life, as we're between the time when God saved us and we're being saved in between that time, he says, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence.

Work out your salvation so you've been saved now work it out with fear and trembling for.

And he says this is because or this is why.

For it is God who is at work in you both to will, that is the affections, that's the heart and to work, that is the works that are shown as we do them physically for his good pleasure.

Right?

So to will and to work.

And so that's the argument against pietism, that no, we can't do anything more to.

To look better in the sight of God.

We're already completely perfect because of Christ's righteousness.

But there is the salvation that's to be worked out that is a pleasing aroma to God.

Right.

Those are the sacrifices of praise that he receives on a daily basis is our heartfelt obedience.

Yeah.

Even within Calvinists there are differences which are constantly debated.

I Mean not within Calvinism itself, not within the doctrine of total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace and perseverance of saints.

There's no such thing as a four point Calvinist.

So if you're a true Calvinist.

Well, they are united in, in what they believe.

They're, they're.

I don't believe that that's true that we constantly argue with each other with regards to, within the, the Calvinism roots.

But I liked what you were saying on the other issue there, Aaron, about that.

It starts with the mind and after, in Romans 12 it says, Therefore exert you.

You exhort you brothers by the mercy of the God, to present your bodies as sacrifice.

Sacrifice, living holy and pleasing to the God which is your spiritual service of worship.

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind so that you may approve what the will of God is, that which is good and pleasing and perfect.

And so it starts in your mind.

True transformation.

Yes, yes, Kathy, very good.

And that there too, that adorns the doctrine right there.

When he says that you may approve that which is pleasing in the sight of God.

It's not that.

So that we would say, yeah, this is, this is good.

I'm doing it, so it must be good.

So I approve of it.

Right.

What the scripture there is saying is that you're giving credence to what, who God is, his character.

Absolutely.

It's showing forth his praises in the world.

So to say the opposite.

This free grace thing is the most awful thing thing in the world.

It really is.

Yeah.

Yep, yep.

Complete transformation.

Complete transformation.

So everybody, so hey, the John's gonna say double predestination equal ultimus me superlaps.

Yeah.

So superlapsarian isn't necessarily Calvinism.

That's, that's talking about, you know, did God plan the cross before?

Did he react after the fall?

So that's not really Calvinism.

That's, that's the disagreement.

That's, that's a separate argument.

So double predestination, I mean there might be some.

That's again, that's not Calvinism.

If you, if you really work out double predestination, you're basically saying, you know how people would, would define that.

Did God actively choose who he would send to hell or did he just leave them in their sin?

So I mean if you want to say, that's a big disagreement.

But in terms of Calvinism.

Tulip.

No, we're in 100 agreement.

So with Regards.

So I'm going to go ahead and close it off.

If you guys have not shared the gospel with anybody, let's do this.

Calvinists, Armenian provisionist.

Let's go out there and share the gospel of people.

Show them who Christ is.

Show them the need for a savior by telling them that they're sinners.

You know, we have all sinned, fall short of the glory of God and that.

That we need a substitute.

We need Jesus who came into the world to live a life that we are required to live, but cannot live with the purpose of going to his, to the cross and laying down his life to pay the penalty for our sin.

That his righteousness night might be imputed on your account.

That we would wear a robe of righteousness.

That he rose from the dead conquering the death.

And he came back and he showed himself in his resurrected body and he ascended into heaven where he reigns right now at the right hand of the Father, forever interceding for all those who are in him.

You guys communicate that to a brother, communicate that to your family, communicate that to a stranger.

That somebody might have hope and that God would work through the preaching of the gospel, through the power of the Holy Spirit, that to change man and bring them to Christ.

So God bless you guys all.

Aaron, thank you for joining me.

I couldn't have done it without you.

Thank you, Tom.

All right.

Love you, man.

Love you guys.