Stan PART 2 for 2024

[00:00:00] Ross: hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 5, Episode 59 of PeopleSoup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:06] Stan: You know, is there anything that's kind of feels threatening? About being more compassionate at work, what might be triggering blocks? You know, things that maybe they would like to be more compassionate, but they just don't have the time or the resources, or they don't really know what compassion is or, or what might be leading to these resistances, you know, resistances are more.

[00:00:34] Where we might be thinking compassion is, is silly or, you know, weak or, you know, we don't, we, we probably could be more compassionate, but we don't want to sort of a thing. So, so that's, that's really a key. Now, the, one of the tricky bits. Is the question, you know, what is compassion? That that's the first dilemma, because often times the definition can be part of the fears, blocks and resistances.

[00:01:04] Ross: PeeSupers. Compassion is a theme that's been on my mind over the last few weeks. What with travel, preparing proposals, catching up on the dreaded business admin, and curating the podcast, I realize that I haven't always been adopting a stance of kindness and compassion towards myself. I've been feeling a bit pooped.

[00:01:24] With that in mind, we're revisiting part two of my chat with Dr. Stan Steindl. We talk about his brilliant book, the Gifts of Compassion, how to understand and overcome suffering. Stan talks about his intention for the book and then we move on to the development of the Compassionate Other.

[00:01:40] Tapping into our intuitive wisdom, Bringing compassion to organizations and the associated fears, blocks, and resistances. And we finish with a tremendous takeaway from Stan, where he introduces the compassion ladder.

[00:01:53] [00:02:00] Now, for those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, Hi! Hola! Welcome to the community. We're an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioural science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun.

[00:02:19] Ross: Our mission is to unlock workplace potential with expert perspectives from contextual behavioral science.

[00:02:26] Let's just scoot over to the news desk. And the headline news is that I've decided it's time for a PeopleSoup summer break. And this will be the final episode of Season 5. But fear not, Peasoopers, because we'll be back in a matter of weeks with Season 6.

[00:02:41] With new guests, more short Cuppa Soup episodes, and the continuation of my exploration of psychological flexibility with Dr. Richard McKinnon. I'll also be promoting some of our favourite episodes over the next few weeks on the socials. Two more bits of important news, folks.

[00:02:56] It's the UK and Republic of Ireland conference on the 16th and 17th of November this year. The theme of the conference is expanding horizons, nurturing connections and growth in contextual behavioral science. and there's a great range of keynotes, speakers, symposiums, papers, all sorts.

[00:03:17] It's such a warm and welcoming community. I'm just in the process of booking my flights now, And you'll find the link to all the details in the show notes. really recommend you check it out. It's a really worthwhile conference. The second piece of important news is bookmarks. If you need help finding your place, get in touch with your postal address and I'll arrange for my dad, Big G, to send you some, wherever you are in the world.

[00:03:42] You heard me, wherever you are in the world. His previous triumph was sending bookmarks to Peru. So let's see where else we can spread the word. For now, get a brew on, and have a listen to my conversation with Stan Steindl.

[00:03:59] And I'd [00:04:00] love to, to really dive into your book, just learn a bit more about that. The gifts of compassion, how to understand and overcome suffering. And I was fortunate enough to, to read a copy. And I would like to start this segment with my review if I may.

[00:04:18] Stan: Oh, yes, please. I'd love to hear it.

[00:04:21] Review

[00:04:21] Ross: So up here we go. Stan Shantay, you stay. This book is awesome. Over the last couple of years, I've really set sail upon my journey, exploring compassion focused therapy, and I've read a fair few books and papers. Yours is the first book that has really hooked me. You take the reader on a journey with practical techniques and personal stories that really bring the concepts to life in a way that's both accessible practical.

[00:04:50] And highly readable for me. It's as if you anticipated my questions, as I progressed through the book and I felt both supported and guided by a trusted friend. Thank you so much for writing this. This is now my go-to reference book, and I'm currently rereading the sections. This, the whole book is awesome, but there's some sections on self criticism, Shane forgiveness.

[00:05:15] And healthy relationships that blew my mind. And I really I'm just diving back into those at the moment. And, you know, you know, my focus is on people at work, Stan, and there was just one of the stories you told that really Sean, for me, that really resonated, you're talking about you're working with some student nurses and you.

[00:05:40] As part of that training, you assessed their level of compassion. According to the three flows, which are compassion for others, receiving compassion from others and self compassion. And it probably wouldn't be surprised to anyone that on the first one, compassion for others, they were much higher than the general population, but on the second to [00:06:00] receiving compassion from others in self-compassion, they were lower than the general population. And you actually discovered that nurses were more likely to be self critical about their own suffering and hide it away from others. For fear of being judged as weak or incompetent. Now we know that nurses are witnessed a patient's going through a lot of suffering and by only being compassionate to others and not receiving any compassion for themselves can put them at risk of burnout and fatigue.

[00:06:29] And I love the way you use this story, just to help me understand these three flows and trying to achieve a balance was an important part of the discussion in the training with nurses. But I think for any workplace, this would be an amazing way in and for the nurses. It was a great place to start preparing for their own self care as they started their careers.

[00:06:52] So you can see I'm a bit giddy about this book, Stan.

[00:06:56] Stan: I am feeling very, very humbled by your wonderful words and, and the description of, of how you felt reading it. I, um, I really appreciate hearing that Ross. Thank you.

[00:07:10] Ross: my pleasure. And I'm glad it came across. so strongly because. Blimey. Listen, this is what I've been looking for, man. so how would you introduce the book to, to a new audience? Maybe

[00:07:22] Stan: well, I think I. Wanted to write a book that was, a very practical, plain language entry point into compassion focused therapy. And a lot of the books that are written the CFT is, is, is very comprehensive. It, it draws on. All sorts of psychological science, attachment theory, neuroscience, spiritual traditions, and wisdom traditions, and sometimes can [00:08:00] feel even a little overwhelming.

[00:08:02] And so that was the idea behind the book was to find a way to just make something very, relatable and engaging and practical and plain language. And so I sort of see it as a little bit of a therapy companion potentially, but also a sort of a self-help type of guide. it really tries to offer practical things that people can do, and start to develop their own compassionate mind.

[00:08:37] And so it works through. Uh, a series of, of core skills around, uh, bringing it back to the body and body-based practices, using imagery, cultivating a sense of a compassionate, other cultivating, a sense of one's own compassionate self, and then bringing all of that. To certain aspects of, of who we are, the multiple selves, the, the anxious self, or the angry self, or the sad self, and then ultimately bringing the compassionate self to things like self criticism and shame, and trying to find ways to, to forgive and, and relate well.

[00:09:17] To, to one another. So, yeah, I think that's, that's the idea there is to really offer something that's nice and relatively brief and practical and, and you can work your way through, uh, and feel like you've actually started to develop this, special part of ourselves. Is this compassionate mind, this compassionate self.

[00:09:36] Ross - on developing the compassionate other

[00:09:36] Ross: Hmm here hearing you speak. I really resonated with your, your guide to developing the compassionate other, and, and just, just having the opportunity for myself to reflect on that. And, it really allowed me to pause and think about what would my compassionate other be like. And it's partly, it's probably two different perhaps or a [00:10:00] blend, but it combines my, my mom who died in 2019 Well, it's kind of one element is my mum. Yeah. The, the unconditional love, the pride she had in the work I do. And in me, and in finding my path in life, that's something that's really quite strong and emotional for me. And also there's sort of another part of it. Which is my dog, my dog, basil,

[00:10:35] Stan: Basil, always a whippet.

[00:10:39] Stan on developing compassionate other

[00:10:39] Ross: And there's just something about that connection. And what can I learn from him about just being in the present about disconnecting? You helps me disconnect and many other things and many other qualities you admire him for. So. I felt very fortunate in that chapter just to actually pause and think about that and then really develop them in my mind and my approach in my own practice.

[00:11:05] So that there's, that there's a really practical thing that the book supported me on in my journey. And I love it that the book is the, main book, but then there's also a, I kind of work book. Is that how you describe it?

[00:11:17] Stan: yeah, it's a personal practice workbook. I was sort of had the dilemma of do I include the. The exercises and the space for writing in the book itself, or separate that out and create a, a kind of a, a separate workbook. I sort of felt like separating it out was, was a nice idea because then the book itself might be shared, you know, you might have a friend and think, Oh, well, they could have a read of this too, but you can keep your own workbook and so on.

[00:11:51] And so, that was sort of the decision in the end, but yeah, th th the workbook is really about trying to record some of these [00:12:00] insights. A lot of CFT is about. Guided discovery and tapping into one's own intuitive wisdom about among other things, compassion and, and so on. And so, you know, the, the idea of the book is to really guide people through these various exercises to arrive just like you said, at, at, their own version of this, ideal, compassionate other, you know, what, what might be.

[00:12:30] The qualities of the ideal compassionate other for, for you, there might be wisdom and strength and courage and a caring commitment. You know, those three things are often in there from a, from a CFT point of view. But what else, you know, is, is it, warmth and cuddles or is it, uh, humor and playfulness or is it.

[00:12:54] serious and philosophical or whatever it might be, you know, that, that we really can, stop and think about, you know, what is it for me? If I was to have someone to be compassionate towards me, what kind of qualities would I really want and need from that person? And so we, think about. Perhaps people from our lives, people now, or people we've known in the past, other living creatures and so on.

[00:13:25] And we start to think, okay, those qualities there, and those qualities there, it might even be, you know, not real people, fictional characters or people from a movie or even spiritual figures and so on. And we can. We can sort of really stop and think, actually being playful is a part of compassion, really, in some ways, and, and being playful with this and, and sort of stopping and thinking, you know, what, what might my ideal compassionate other look like?

[00:13:55] And of course we might have different ones for different occasions. [00:14:00] So my old dog was called hammer. And he's gone now, but when I'm needing a kind of a compassionate other, that really is about the strength and courage side of, of compassion, I might sort of more think about hammer, whereas if I'm really after that warmth and friendliness, then I might think about Bruno.

[00:14:25] if I'm wanting to tap into wisdom, I often bring to mind my grandfather, who was actually my father's father, David Steindl, I think of, him as, as sort of that figure of wisdom. So yeah, I think there's, there's these, people, these living creatures, these. other characters, they give us these little gifts and then that's where the title comes from in a way, you know, like that's one of the gifts, compassion is, is that we experience these qualities from others.

[00:15:00] And, you know, even, perhaps when they've gone, you know, that we still have that gift of, of those. Those special qualities. And we can actually enact some of that within ourselves, as well as we develop our own compassionate mind, you know, from those, the lessons that, that others have, have offered us or, the demonstration of, of what it is to be a compassionate person.

[00:15:29] Ross: Wow. Love it. Thanks. Thanks Dan.

[00:15:32] Stan: at one stage there I was, I had, uh, in McClellan as my compassionate, other because of the whole, you know, Gandalf thing. But then he was in a movie recently where he was the real baddy. And so all of a sudden it, you know, Yeah. He's, he's not quite as helpful anymore.

[00:15:57] Ross: Oh, no, he violated your [00:16:00] compassionate, other by having a different role.

[00:16:02] Stan: yeah. Oh, well,

[00:16:06] Getting compassion into organisations

[00:16:06] Ross: it's done, you know, I'm keen to get to compassion into organizations as a violet evidence-based approach to. A different way to approach our working lives. Now I know you've, you've done this. I mean, any, any tips on compassion for people in the workplace, either, folks in the workplace or people trying to bring compassionate to the workplace.

[00:16:33] Fears, blocks and resistances to compassion

[00:16:33] Stan: Yes. I think that the big consideration there is in and around those fears blocks and resistances. Uh, this is probably one of the really important contributions of, professor Paul Gilbert, who really developed compassion focused therapy and, and the compassionate mind, but he really identified this idea that.

[00:16:58] That people can have fears, blocks and resistances to compassion, and the workplace can bring up those sorts of fears, blocks, and resistances. Often when we're at work, we are tapping into different motivational systems. We're tapping into a competitive motivation, for example, or we're tapping into an achievement.

[00:17:26] Motivation or trying to aspire and have successes. And so sometimes a compassionate motivation can feel, I think, at odds to the sorts of motivations that really are. Kind of demanded of us in the workplace, even compassionate professions like nursing or, medical doctors or, or even psychology, you know, like for me, uh, we'll have sometimes those [00:18:00] competing.

[00:18:00] Motivations and, you know, the, the need to, achieve certain key targets, for example, or to demonstrate that, we're being effective and, and having good outcomes or, you know, other sorts of, motivations. So I think that's the. Bit to ponders. So if we go into an organization and we propose compassion, uh, in one way or another, what might be some of the fears, blocks and resistances that arise, you know, what might be the fears, what might, actually be activating their threat system there?

[00:18:40] You know, is there anything that's kind of feels threatening? About being more compassionate at work, what might be triggering blocks? You know, things that maybe they would like to be more compassionate, but they just don't have the time or the resources, or they don't really know what compassion is or, or what might be leading to these resistances, you know, resistances are more.

[00:19:08] Where we might be thinking compassion is, is silly or, you know, weak or, you know, we don't, we, we probably could be more compassionate, but we don't want to sort of a thing. So, so that's, that's really a key. Now, the, one of the tricky bits. Is the question, you know, what is compassion? That that's the first dilemma, because often times the definition can be part of the fears, blocks and resistances.

[00:19:37] If compassion is seen as, like you said before, you know, sort of warm and fuzzy and fluffy and pink, if you like, then that can just not feel really relevant. So. Trying to tap into a sense of, you know, what is compassion that it's, that it's a sensitivity to suffering, in [00:20:00] self and others and a commitment to try to alleviate and prevent that suffering.

[00:20:05] It, it takes great wisdom. It takes great strength and courage, and it really is about a commitment to being. Helpful rather than harmful it. It's not about anything to sort of, high and mighty or anything like that. It's, it's just this core commitment to be helpful rather than harmful to myself and others.

[00:20:31] sometimes we might even, invite people to, to kind of think, you know, what's, what's a time in their lives where they have. Experienced receiving compassion from others, you know, what, what, what was that like? Or what did they notice when someone was being helpful to them or in fact, what was a time in their life, where they were being compassionate towards another person?

[00:20:58] And what was that like? What did that feel like in them to shift into that, that motivation and just gradually creating the sense of, of what is compassion? What is it. Really feel like to receive it and to give it, and then gradually kind of having a sense of, you know, sort of moving through the fears blocks and resistances and working out just, just what might it be in this current organizational context?

[00:21:28] the idea of motivational switching, I think is a really interesting one in the workplace. There'll be times when, okay. The competitive motivation is essential. I mean, that's, that's what we're here for maybe, but are there ways, you know, knowing what compassion perhaps is and what we're really talking about there, are there ways that we can switch motivations and switch into something like, uh, a compassionate motivation, perhaps when we notice that that someone's struggling at work and [00:22:00] that sort of thing.

[00:22:00] Ross: why I was standing. you've given me a new way in to, to think about this with organizations. I love the idea of perhaps going in introducing the idea of compassion and then sort of facilitating a discussion about what, what are your fears blocks and resistances. And allowing people to get them out on the table and say, let's, let's discuss those.

[00:22:24] I'm not, I'm not threatened by the oats. let me try and reveal more to you as we go along. But thank you for getting those out because I've experienced that. I think I probably mentioned when we spoke for compassion. And a t-shirt I spoke about doing a sort of taster session, more around act acceptance and commitment therapy with, uh, a tech organization an introducing sort of that noticing with curiosity and kindness.

[00:22:51] and it was the CEO who actually said, well, all right, Ross, but we don't have time to do that. We are moving here and there where I gel, we get shit done. And. We don't have time to do this. And I tried to sort of present that we could do both, but given more time with them, I'd really like to start getting people to share their fears, blocks and resistance.

[00:23:11] Cause I think it then sort of demonstrates, it gives me the opportunity to kind of role model compassion as I do that.

[00:23:18] STUMBLED ACROSS ROLE OF MOTIVATIONAL INTERVIEWING

[00:23:18] Stan: well, what, you've stumbled across there. I think Ross is, the role of motivational interviewing just to bring it back to that, that am I. you know, w our temptation, when a CEO says, Oh, we don't have time for that is to say, but what about if you do it this way?

[00:23:36] Or, you know? Yeah. But you could do this, and then they, you say, Oh yeah, but we can't because of this. and there, we have it now where we're stuck in, in the discord. But, but like you say, often a really powerful response is to say, tell me more about that. Tell me more about. Your concerns there. What are your reservations about this idea of curiosity and [00:24:00] kindness in the world? Um, what are some of the, the reasons that you really feel reluctant to go there, or, or what, what about where you feel unable to actually to bring that in to the workplace and, and, you know, really just spending time, exploring. Validating honoring those fears, blocks and resistances. And then at some point, once they feel heard and understood about, you know, that side of it, then you might come in with a little open question.

[00:24:35] That sounds something like, so what about the other side? You know, if you were to bring it in this idea of curiosity and kindness, it's not easy to find the time, but if you were to bring it in. What would be good about that? And now we're getting onto the, the, the motivation side, the side, that, that is about the, reasons and benefits and the facilitators of compassion or kindness and curiosity and so on because we have those inhibitors. We have the fears blocks and resistances, and we want to really validate that side. And then we want to just gently guide the conversation towards the facilitators, the other side of the ambivalence and, and, you know, even the tech CEO or whatever, they'll be there. You know, we, we are these deep Wells, as human beings and, We have compassion in us, you know, it's, it's in there, it's a V it's evolved to, and so, you know, given that little space to really explore both sides, you know, often people will say little things, you know, they'll say, well, you know, obviously compassion is a good thing.

[00:25:55] And then you say, Oh, okay. So tell us a bit more about [00:26:00] that bit. And off we go starting to, to sort of help them to have all the good lines, you know, help them to, to actually make those arguments for compassion. It can sometimes feel like, yeah, but that's, and it takes so long to have that conversation.

[00:26:16] But the funny thing is it's actually the shortcut because. When we are able to really listen and to validate the fears blocks and resistances, and then just gently guide to those, those facilitators of compassion. we're, we're missing all of the resistance, then we're missing all the arguments, all the discord, and that's what slows us down.

[00:26:39] So oftentimes these conversations can actually be really efficient and, and, and we can get there.

[00:26:46] Ross: Great. I've got a whole new structure emerging to how to, how to approach this with organizations. That's pretty practical for me, Stan. Thank you so much.

[00:26:56] Stan: Yes. I think that it's really a process of listening, isn't it? You know, that's, that's the key, you know, when, when we, speak about compassion, sometimes we can, have a passion for compassion. And so we, we want to, lead the charge and, and so on. But if we can just stop and breathe and kind of listen and gradually evoke, you know, create that opportunity for people to really make their own arguments for where compassion perhaps can fit in the workplace.

[00:27:32] Ross: No standard. I like to ask my guests another favor. Would you have a little takeaway that you could share with our P supers, our listeners, something to reflect on for them?

[00:27:48] Stan: I think for me, compassion is. About engaging with and trying to help with suffering. And [00:28:00] so, you know, it's no small thing really, to be compassionate. And often we think of compassion as some sort of, beautiful Zen uplifting kind of loveliness. But actually it really is moving towards suffering, moving towards some of the dark side of what it is to be human.

[00:28:29] And so compassion is often not just about. Kindness or love or, you know, kind of certainly being nice, but rather having that strength and courage and determination and wisdom and awareness and understanding and deep, deep commitment. To actually approach and be in the presence of some of the really tough stuff.

[00:29:02] Some of the stuff that we actually don't like some of the stuff that feels really uncomfortable or unpleasant, about others and perhaps what they're going through. but also about ourselves. And so often. It might be about bringing compassion to those bits of ourselves that we really low about ourselves or hate about ourselves.

[00:29:28] or we find we have terrible shame about this part of ourselves. And so I, I like the idea of a compassion ladder, so to speak where we try to build. The rungs of the ladder. You know, we start with bringing it back to the body and using the breathing, using the body posture, using the facial expression.

[00:29:56] Some of those core pieces are kind of [00:30:00] like the first, the first one, right on the ladder. And then we build up from there and we start to bring in. our imagination and, and images of, perhaps a compassionate other, and the wisdom of them and what they might, what they might have to say to us, or to guide us with things.

[00:30:17] And, and then we might go up from there and start to, to really think about, okay, my compassionate self. What if I was to approach my own suffering. Now that the idea of a lad is nice because if we get to that rung on the ladder and it feels too much. You know, or, or we, we start to really feel distressed in the presence of, of suffering our own or others.

[00:30:43] We can just pop down the ladder again, and we can go back to the image of the compassionate are there, or we can even go back to the body and just activate the parasympathetic nervous system. Activate the soothing system. Just settle. Sooth, calm the body. And then just nudge your way back up the letter again, until we're moving to that point where it's about practicing compassion in daily life, and then gradually getting to that 0.2 steps forward one step back or whatever, where we're now really embodying our compassionate self and.

[00:31:22] We might encounter suffering in others or in ourselves, and the compassionate self just arrives now. And there it is alongside ready to help out because we've been through these little stages and really paced ourselves. And now we can embody our compassionate self.

[00:31:45] Ross: I love it. The latter that really speaks to me. Thanks, Dan. And actually feel like you're. As I climb my own ladder, I actually feel like Stan is just down there holding the ladder. So it doesn't slip for me.

[00:31:59] Stan: [00:32:00] uh, thank you. Actually, one of the adorable bits of feedback I got about the book was from my, my daughter. Freya, who said that she felt that reading the book was like, just having a conversation with me. She felt like my voice was, was coming through it. And I was like, Oh wow. That that's just. The best feedback.

[00:32:26] And so I do hope that that kind of comes through that, that perhaps, you know, I would like that sense that, you know, I'm there for you guys, you know? And, and I know you're there for me as well.

[00:32:39] Ross: absolutely. And I agree with Freya and in another meeting, someone asked you if you were doing an audio book.

[00:32:46] Stan: No, no one has mentioned that. I mean, no, but the publisher and so on hasn't hasn't mentioned anything about an audio book. It would be sort of fun to do. I can't imagine. I guess you'd just have to sit in a little booth and read it out loud. It would, it would be an interesting experience.

[00:33:07] Ross: Well, I think you can tell your publisher, you've been asked at least twice

[00:33:11] now. So, um, okay. I think, I think you could call that a growing demand.

[00:33:18] Stan: Yes. Yeah. Well, I'm sh I reckon my mum would also think it was a good idea. So that might be three.

[00:33:27] Ross: Gotcha. Stan. Thank you so much for joining me on people say I really value your reflections, your openness, and it's been a joy. So thank you so much.

[00:33:37] Stan: Thanks for having me rice. I love what you do. Thank you, Matt.

[00:33:45] AFTER OUTRO

[00:33:45] Ross: That's it, pea soupers. The remix of my conversation with Stan is in the bag. Thanks for listening, and this is the official end of Season 5. But fear not, we'll be back with more guests and much more in a matter of weeks with Season [00:34:00] 6. In the meantime, I wonder if you could help me out. I'd like to reach more people with the PeopleSoup goodness, so

[00:34:06] you enjoyed this episode of the podcast, we'd love you to do three things.

[00:34:10] Ross: Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe and give us a five star review, whatever platform you're on.

[00:34:18] Number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This would all help us reach more people and make some noise with stuff that could be useful. We'd love to hear from you and you can get in touch at peoplesoup. pod at gmail. com. On X, formerly known as Twitter, we are at peoplesouppod. on the gram, known as insta, We are at People. Soup and on Facebook we are at PeopleSoupPod. You can also drop us a review or get in touch using a voice note on WhatsApp.

[00:34:46] Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, peace supers, and bye for now.

[00:34:55]

[00:35:00] Stan: Oh, that was fun. Ross. I really enjoyed chatting with you last time. And this time, I think it's a fun, uh, it's. It's sort of called something in podcast. Land is not a CoLab or

[00:35:12] Ross: Yeah. Oh gosh. Yeah. Cross pollination or something.

[00:35:18] Stan: Yeah. Well let's hope not. All right.

[00:35:25] Well,