Hello, Ian Anderson Gray here.

Before we get onto the main content today, this episode is sponsored by

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Now I've been using Adobe Express for ages, but in the last year I've become

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Confident Live Marketing Podcast.

So let's get on with the main show now.

Welcome to the Confident Live Marketing Show with Ian Anderson Gray, helping

you level up your impact, authority, and profit through the power of confident

live video, or optimize your mindset and communication and increase your

confidence in front of the camera.

Get confident with the tech and gear and get confident with the content.

Well, hello.

Welcome to episode 208 of the Confident Live Marketing Show.

My name's Ian Anson Gray, and in this episode we're talking about how to

create unforgettable experiences.

I've got my great friend Phil Michan on and can't wait to introduce you to him.

He's been on the show before and you might be thinking,

well, what on earth, Ian, why?

What are you here?

You, the last episode was all about pausing the podcast, um,

and as I said in the last episode, This podcast is not ending.

I will be creating more episodes.

I did promise you some amazing guests.

It's just that it's not gonna be the same consistent every single Friday.

Um, just as I'm thinking about some new avenues, changing things.

Uh, so I.

There you go.

It's exciting to have a, a special guest on today, and I'd love to hear from you.

If you have any thoughts or any ideas of what you would like to hear from

me or any guests you'd like me to invite on the show, please let me know.

You can get in touch with me on the socials.

I have carelessly scattered myself across most of them out there,

and you can email me at Ian at.

I Ag me, I'd love to hear from you.

Well, let's introduce Phil to you.

Phil.

We've been friends for a long time.

I think back in 2015 is when we first met at Social Media Marketing

World, and he is the Director of Experience for Social Media Examiner.

He's been designing the social media marketing world experience for

over a decade, drawing from over 25 years in creating customized events.

Phil loves to create memorable moments.

And transformational experiences.

In addition, Phil is a jazz saxophonist, a pickleball enthusiast, and the author

of Unforgettable, the Art and Science of Creating Memorable Experiences.

Welcome to the show, Phil.

How you doing?

I am doing amazing.

Ian, it's great to be with you on here.

That gives me confidence just hearing you read my bio like that.

Well, it's a, it's, it's, it's a fabulous bio.

I I, I, you're gonna have to explain to me, uh, I dunno whether this

is a Britt versus American thing.

What's, what's a pickleball enthusiast?

Ah, pickleball hasn't crossed a pond, I don't think.

So pickleball is like a combination of racquetball, tennis, and pinging

pong kind of all smashed together.

It's been around as long as I've been alive.

It was literally created in 1965, the year that I was born

up in Seattle by some guys who.

Were bored and had wanted to create a game for their kids in the backyard, but

it's taken America by storm in the last 10 years, and now you're finding like

even professional tennis players who are a little too old to compete with the

young guys and the pros switching over to pickleball, but the court's about

half the size, playing with a paddle.

A flat paddle used to be made out of wood only, but now you've got, of course, all

the expensive kinds 'cause companies are looking for an opportunity to make money.

Uh, you're playing with a wiffle ball, so it's uh, literally a wiffle ball like

we played with when we were growing up.

And you're playing on this half.

Size tennis court and, you know, any age can play it.

'cause the rules are pretty simple and most people my age are playing

in doubles, so you don't have to even cover the entire court.

Uh, but it's still fun.

It's very social and it's a, it's a good exercise.

It looks, it's a memorable

experience.

Yeah.

About that.

I was, I was about to say, and I was just, while you were talking, I just did

a quick Google so that it, it definitely isn't something I've, I've seen before.

So like, why don't we have it in the uk?

Uh, it looks fun.

I think I quite enjoy that.

So, yeah.

Uh, so you, you came on the show like back in the early days

and we were talking about me.

Um, we, we were talking about, was it memorable events?

I think that was the, that was the, or uh, yeah, it was memorable events and

we were talking about, I don't remember Ian, it was such a long time ago.

It was, you know, back in the, uh, 19th century I think.

Uh, and we were communicating with smoke signals, but yeah, it, it was.

We were talking about that, and obviously we know each other.

We met, uh, back in 2015 at the, that was the first social media marketing

world that I went to, which is, if you haven't heard, if you're listening

or watching and you haven't heard of this, this social media marketing world

is I think, the biggest social media marketing conference in the world.

And it blew my mind.

Um, and it was, had such an impact on me, on my personal life and my business life.

I made so many amazing friends, um, from that.

But we, we met, I think we met in, in the.

In the bar at the Manchester Hyatt, um, hotel or something like that.

But, uh, tell us, Phil, what, what have you been up to since last time we

spoke, but I know you've written a book.

Uh, what else have you been up to?

Uh, what's, what's, what's new in the life of Phil?

Isn't that enough?

I think probably since the last time we were on here and today.

That's the biggest thing, is writing a book.

It took me about five years to write it, you know, subtract out the, the

pandemic for about a year and a half.

So that's maybe the biggest thing.

But we're, we're still working on social media marketing world.

We're figuring out what does it look like, you know, three years

after a pandemic people's um, event, attendance habits have changed.

So that's a big thing.

Um, I'm still playing saxophone and still doing a lot of the other same things.

I think the biggest deal is I've switched to, you know, I'm spending more time

getting on podcasts and speaking and figuring out how to create content.

So I'm, I'm definitely much more of a content creator now than I would've been

last time I was on the show with you.

So those are a few of the things.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, definitely.

Well, oh, maybe the biggest point of all.

My middle daughter's getting married in two months.

And so Wow.

That's probably the biggest news of Vinny that I have.

That is

exciting.

That is and, and kind of probably like quite strange for you.

I mean, I can't, IM my, my daughter's 14, so the idea of her getting married,

it must take, takes a bit of getting used to, I'm sure for you, Phil.

Uh, then that's, yeah.

So that's, that's interesting.

And I obviously we're gonna come back to the book because like.

Writing a book is a, is a huge thing.

I've been involved with Mark Schafer's, um, uh, the, the most

amazing marketing book ever, uh, book.

And I wrote a chapter and that was kind of, that was a lot for me.

So actually writing a whole book is a whole other thing,

but I, we'll come back to that.

Um, because I'm really interested and I'm also really interested to, to hear

your thoughts on what has changed, you know, uh, as we have come back.

From the pandemic.

What, what has changed and how do we create memorable experiences?

Memorable events, um, but something I'm asking my my guests at the moment,

something I'm really interested in is your confidence journey.

Uh, for me, going back to 2015, I was, I was really quite shy.

I was quite introverted.

I didn't believe in myself and.

Being asked to speak at Social Media Marketing World was a

huge boost to my confidence.

I had a lot of imposter syndrome, I have to say, as well.

Uh, but that was, that was an amazing experience.

So I'd love to hear from you, uh, what your confidence journey has been like.

Um, I'm just gonna leave it like that.

I'm not gonna give any more details.

I'm just interested in your response to that.

I'm gonna pull on two threads as I think about that question.

One is, as a jazz saxophonist, so.

In 2004.

So a long time ago, um, I moved from rural Georgia to Chicago and I

thought, awesome, I'm gonna have an opportunity to play my saxophone.

And that's, you know, as we're working for a church.

So I thought that's gonna be a way that I'm gonna attract people into the church.

'cause I'll be able to go play among the pros and maybe make

a little bit of side income.

Well, I went out and played and I had some reasonable.

Success and I got to play with some great players, but I went to one bar in

particular, it's called Green Dolphin Street, which no longer exists, but

at the time it was one of the premier jazz clubs in Chicago, and I knew

the pianist and he asked me to play because his main sax couldn't show up.

So I did that and it was the most miserable experience I've probably had in

my life in terms of musical experience.

Like my mouth went cotton mouth dry.

So that made my read go dry.

So I sounded terrible.

I felt terrible.

Songs that I know and can play have played many times.

I, I forgot.

I didn't fit in.

It was so awkward and miserable.

I wanted to quit.

I literally wanted to quit the entire ride home with that guy.

His name is Jose.

I didn't say a word.

I was just in shame.

I'm like, I'm never doing that again.

And it took years to get the confidence to step back on a

stage outside of the church.

And the church.

I felt safe because I knew the songs and I was in charge, so

no one was gonna say anything.

But when I got out into this space among professional musicians,

I didn't feel safe anymore.

It took about.

Um, eight years probably before I had the opportunity to step into

a space where someone says, Phil, I I really like your playing.

I wanna hear more.

Um, can you do that?

And they started hiring me and it began to be this thing

where people would invite me.

And that slowly developed over time where I realized, okay, that I,

back in the nineties, I had heard someone say, or someone, I introduced

myself as a jazz saxophonist, but I wasn't living into that statement.

Until probably about 10 years ago, that's when it began.

And I've had the chance to play with some really amazing players.

And I now know, I think this is a critical part of the journey

I had to come to grips with.

I'm never gonna be one of those A-listers who, you know, is getting called to

do sessions in New York or Nashville or whatever, but I can play at a level

that people enjoy it and I enjoy it.

So that's one journey.

The other is, as a speaker and in college, um, Similar experience happened.

I was giving a, a persuasive speech, and when I got to the conclusion of

the speech, I could not remember what I had prepared, and I, I clammed up,

I, I froze up, and instead of trying to figure out a way out of it, I just ran

to my seat, sat down and covered my head.

And said, I am never doing that again.

And so, um, it took several years and a pastor came along and said,

Phil, would you, would you try it?

Um, I'm gonna be there for you.

I'll be your safety net.

Um, I think you've got something in you, but if, if after trying it one

time you realize this isn't for you, we can find something else for you to do.

I think you've got something in you.

And so with his support and encouragement, I gave it a try and that began a journey.

But here's what's interesting, Ian, is, you know, I've done a

lot of speaking since that time.

That's been a long time ago.

I won't count how many years.

Um, and I've spoken in front of thousands.

I've spoken in front of dozens.

Um, but there's still this imposter syndrome.

That kicks in, where now I'm in a new space.

You now I'm speaking at conferences where there's people that are

getting paid 15, 20, 20 5,000.

A lot more than that.

To speak, and I'm trying to position myself saying, well, I can speak too,

and I've not been paid, you know, more than, you know, a thousand dollars.

I'll just put that out there.

I've not been paid more than a thousand dollars yet.

I've been promised more.

I've signed contracts for more, but those haven't happened yet.

And so there's this imposter syndrome that kicks in.

Am I really very good?

Do I really have what it takes?

And then Iye, just yesterday I sent a video or an email to someone looking

to maybe hire me and sent him a couple videos of recent talks and

the guy's like, oh wow, you're good.

And, um, what's your rate?

And I haven't heard back, I don't know if I got the deal, but

it, it gave me such confidence.

And so I think there's a, there's a third thing that I'll say,

and this may be a long-winded answer, but it's important to me.

There's things that people have said about me.

Um, you're a saxophonist, you're a speaker, you're a writer, and

there's about a dozen of those kind of statements that I've heard over

the years from people that when they say it, it really resonates.

And I'm finding myself living into those as part of like daily affirmations.

I'll say these things and not in a proud way, but of this is who I

am, this is how I need to show up in the world, and I, I can do this.

That's been really critical for me.

And there's been stories with every one of those statements.

I could tell you a story of how I've had to live into being a Swiss

Army knife, which sometimes I hate and sometimes I love, you know,

so there's a long-winded answer to a question, but I hope, hopefully

that's helpful.

Somebody that's, no, that's really's.

So interesting.

I, and I as, as you were talking, I was, I was thinking a few, quite a few things.

You, you, the first thing is, Do you think that the battle is most of the

time in our own minds when it comes to this, you know, you mentioned

imposter syndrome, you obviously had those very difficult experiences, and

so there's that part of your brain that's saying, Phil, like, remember

that time when you completely messed up the speaking, that could happen again.

You know, there's, so there's that battle in in our heads,

and you also mentioned that.

There were, there was that, uh, I think it was a pastor who believed

in you and gave you a another chance.

And you also mentioned when people have said really positive things

about you, they, they're truthful.

Like, like, Phil, you are an amazing speaker, so how much of the battle is

it within our own heads and how much should we be relying on other people?

Because in one sense, Relying on other people to give us nice things to say

that that's, that can be problematic.

But equally we do need people in our lives that can give us that confidence as well.

So there's a lot to maybe to kind of unpack there, but I'm

just interested in your thoughts.

Well, I do think our mental response to pain.

Is a part of this battle.

So I'm gonna give you a different example.

And you know, that I'm dealing with, um, I've got stenosis in my neck, which

means, uh, the nerve is being pinched down here at the base of my neck.

And so sometimes it causes shooting pain to go down my arm.

And so a response to pain is, well, stop doing that.

You know, that's hurting you, that's not good.

And you, you start to confuse good pain from bad pain.

Knowing when is this okay, that's not good.

There's, there's a problem or there's some kinds of pains that are

part of the growth process, right?

But I've, I've made the mistake with this pain in particular of shutting

down all activity because I'm in pain.

And there's a consequence when you shut down all activity as you

stop being able to do anything.

Literally last fall, my, my body shut down.

I thought I needed to go to the er.

Um, I was taking a PT to help me realize, okay, there's something deeper going on

in your body and you're, you're paying attention to the symptoms which are

showing up in your arm and shoulder, but actually the problem is in your neck.

And I think there's a parallel with all these things that we're talking

about is how are we mentally responding to pain and are we understanding

the source of that pain correctly?

So, you know, I forgot my.

My conclusion of that talk in college.

Well, the truth is, and I didn't tell this part of the story

when I was preparing that talk.

I was not very comfortable with my conclusion.

I don't like persuasive speeches in general.

I'm not a salesperson, so I threw something together and I had something,

but it was not well rehearsed and I wasn't really sure what I was

gonna say, and I, I thought I might be able to make it up on the fly.

I think I, this is obviously been over 35 years ago.

Um, and so that's part of the story is, well, what really happened?

Is, are you telling the, the true story or is your story fitting the narrative

that you want to tell and live into?

So I think there's, that's part of the mental game we have to understand.

And as far as like listening to other people, the way that I'm listening to

people is I'm paying attention to things that people have said in the past, or

it could be the present, but when I hear them say it, and I can remember

them saying it, and it resonated.

And caused a visceral response of, okay, that's.

That's true in a deeper way than I could have articulated.

So I'll give you another example is the editor of my book is Jennifer

Harshman, and I was part of a, uh, a writer's group for a while while

I was working on the boot book.

And then I finally realized that that wasn't helping me.

Um, they wanted to talk and I needed to write, and I didn't have the

kind of time to talk that they did.

I was like, I only have an hour a day to write.

I needed to spend that hour writing, not talking.

Um, but.

In one of those calls, I read a portion of my book, and afterwards one of

them said, Phil, you are a writer.

And all of them said it.

And I was like, I don't believe you.

Now I'm just someone who writes, but I'm not a writer.

You know, I've got a day job.

I'm a an event designer, I'm a saxophonist.

I'm all these things, but I'm not a writer because here's the story.

When I was in fifth grade, My teacher believed me when I said, I'm not

a writer, you should give me a C.

'cause he actually let us one semester grade ourselves.

And I believe this narrative.

I'm not a writer.

And he affirmed it.

And from that day forward until sometime in college, I didn't think

I could write, you know, I could pass the exams, but I was not a writer.

I didn't wanna write, I studied economics because I didn't wanna write.

Um, and so that narrative has stuck in my brain.

Even in grad school where one of my professors said, Phil, you're

gonna write multiple books someday.

I'm like, yeah, right.

That's not happening.

Um, so when this happened a couple years ago, and I'm in this writer's group

and they said, Phil, you're a writer.

And these are, these are like professional writers and a professional editor

saying, you're, you're a good writer.

And she said, you're, your writing is one of the cleanest of all of my clients.

I, I hardly have to change anything when you submit something to me.

Like really?

I, I don't think I'm that good.

Um, so that, those are the voices I listen to, but I don't go, if I start

going and seeking out affirmation from people, then that's a different

deal, and I think that's dangerous.

Mm-hmm.

So what I'm suggesting is paying attention to things that people have

said over you, to you that felt true.

In a way that you weren't begging for.

You weren't looking for it, but when you think about, it's like, okay, that's,

that's a truth statement that I need to clinging to that defines part of who I am.

Does that make sense?

That is, that is fascinating.

I know, and I, I think you're right.

So much of.

The, the, the reasons for us being stuck or not realizing our potential or not

growing in our confidence comes from the, the, the, this false narrative that

quite often starts in our childhood, and it might be through a bad experience.

And you've mentioned lots of those different experiences and

it's, it's, it's fantastic that you've been able to realize.

That those are false narratives and do something about it because

so many people don't do that.

I also was fascinated, uh, by what you said about the difference

between seeking out affirmation, which I, I agree with you.

Is, is dangerous.

So many of us don't get the encouragement that we, we kind of probably need.

And, and that reminds me that we, I think we need to do a better job.

Of actually encouraging each other.

Like, Phil, if you have done something that really inspires me, sometimes I

just, it's, it's not that I, I don't care about you, it's just life gets in the way.

I'll, I'll forget.

But why not just message you and say, Phil, I I really loved what you did then.

Um, I think that kind of affirmation is good, but when we're seeking

it out, that's not a good idea.

But then it is also about remembering those times when people have.

Affirmed you in a really deep level, and then I, I have to actually make

a note of those things, otherwise I forget because I tend to focus on the,

the negative narrative as opposed to the positive one, if that makes sense.

Oh, it totally makes sense.

And I'll, I'll clarify a couple things there.

Some people's love language, if you're familiar with that book.

Yeah.

Gary Chapman.

Some people's love languages, words of affirmation.

And so that can actually end up doing a couple things.

One is you're gonna seek out.

Words of affirmation because you need to hear them.

You're gonna give them, but you're actually kind of, um, fishing for them.

And that can be both positive and negative.

I don't think though, that it's wrong to ask people that you trust for input

on what they see in you, but I think the clarifying question there, The people that

you trust and the way that you ask them.

Yeah.

So if you're, if you're standing on stage and saying, Hey, look

at me, look how great I am, and tell me that I'm the best speaker.

And you know, we literally had a couple speakers do this at our conference.

Say, give me five star ratings so that I can get on the keynote stage.

You know, tell them that I'm the best.

You know, reach out to the event organizers and say, this guy,

this gal should be on the stage.

Well, that's not good.

That's, that is not healthy.

And I can see through it and so can everybody else.

But you know, if Ian, um, you came to me and said, Phil, I need, you

know, I just need your honest input.

I'm, I'm at this place where I'm transitioning and I need to

understand like, what's next?

So what do you see in me?

What's, what am I really good at that maybe I don't recognize the value of?

That's a different conversation and that's not what I'm

talking about being the danger.

I think that's a good conversation.

But more for me.

It's like if in that conversation I said something to you that really

resonated, and I think that this actually happened for us a few years

ago, when I called you out to be a musician and a marketer, I gave you

permission to bring those worlds together.

And for you, that was a, a powerful moment where you realized, oh, I

don't have to put that on the shelf.

I can be both in this space and I can be me.

So, and those are like, those are the moments that you take note of.

And you know, I think I, this gal Katie Jordan, I don't know if you know Katie,

but she does vision mapping and primarily she does it in the faith-based world,

but I know she does it for anyone.

Um, but she gives you space.

To think about what are those things that people have said about you and

then, and then having that next thing.

Well, what's keeping you from living into that?

Like, so if I believe I'm a jazz saxophonist, why

am I not living into that?

Is there something I'm believing right now?

Is there some experience that's blocking me?

Is there something that I need to do?

And a lot of times for me, it happens when I stop playing for a couple of months.

Then all of a sudden I think, oh, I'm not a good saxophonist.

And it only takes three or four days of practicing.

Again, all those, okay, I really like this.

Why did I stop?

You know?

Um, so I, doing some kind of guided exercise is helpful to recognize those

voices that have come along the way.

And there's lots of coaches that, that do things along those lines.

And I think my.

My own reflection has been the result of working with

multiple coaches over the years.

And, um, I just recently compiled this list as like my more exhaustive list of

those voices that I've heard over the last couple of decades, frankly, and every one

of them, there's a story behind it and I could probably give a talk about it.

Yeah.

Well, so much in what you just said that I'm really interested about

the mind mapping side of things and the, the, the speaker on stage

asking for the, the five stars.

It, it feels like hacking the algorithm, you know, uh, people are trying

to hack the algorithm on Facebook, but also in real life as well.

I wa I want to get on though to the book.

Uh, I mean, I, I'm fascinated by that conversation and I think we

could do a whole podcast on that.

Um, but I do want to hear about your book and, and it's.

You've had this transition from being somebody who thought they just would no

way could be a writer to being a writer.

And you have now written and published a book.

Tell us, tell us about the book and what the experience has been and then, then

we're gonna get into the topic of the book, which is Unforgettable Experiences.

Well,

here it is.

So we'll uh, get it.

Go ahead and get it up there.

You can see it over my shoulder, but we'll get a little bit closer.

Um, and if you could describe, describe it for, describe it

for podcast listeners as well.

'cause it's, uh, I love, I love the cover.

Yeah.

So on the cover of the book is not only the title, but it's a picture of an

elephant, but it's not any elephant.

It's an elephant that has a yellow ribbon.

Tied around its trunk and you know, it's kind of humorous to think that

an elephant, which has the strongest memory of all animals needs to tie

a yellow ribbon around its trunk to remember something that's kind

of the, the humor that's in there.

And, you know, and it's just, it's also fun, you know, uh, we're, we're working on

the cover of the book and trying to figure out, well, what's something that's gonna.

Picture of this idea of making something memorable or unforgettable, and we said

it's gotta, the cover itself has to be unforgettable, has to grab your attention

and say, okay, there's gotta be more here.

The book is not about elephants, but what's interesting is because

there's an elephant on the cover and I asked face my Facebook friends

to help me name the elephant.

We ended up naming him.

Actually, he has two names in Swahili.

His name is Kubu, which means to remember.

And then his, uh, English, or I suppose you could say Dutch name is Rembrandt.

Uh, because Kubu grew up in Africa, but went to study with a famous artist

in, in Holland or the Netherlands.

And he fell in love with Rembrandt.

And so his friends called him Rembrandt.

And I like to say now he goes around the world and says what no one else can say,

because he's the elephant in the room.

I love that.

Uh, and, uh, how, how was the question, how was, how was the

book, how was it creating the book?

I mean, you said this has been taking five years.

Um, yeah.

What, what's been the experience?

Are you, are you, are you really happy with the way it's gone?

What, what have been the ups and the downs through that time?

I would say I wrote three books in the, in the process of writing one, maybe four.

Um, the book that I thought I was writing in 2017 ended up not being a, uh, a real

good topic for conversation or for a book.

It was something that was unmanageable.

I had this idea that now is just a subpoint within one

of the chapters of the book.

Uh, 'cause I realized there's not a book in that idea.

It's just not feasible.

And then, Um, you know, then I, then I got the idea for this book and

wrote the proposal got approved by the publisher, but then the pandemic

hit 'cause I was supposed to, I was supposed to finish it in 2020.

Summer of 2020 was the goal.

Um, but then no one cares about in-person events.

And it, you know, it's, it's based on in-person events, but

it is broadly about experiences.

So anyone who's creating, um, experiences, ideally within some

kind of gathering of people.

Um, it's gonna be more helpful to you there, and it's gonna be most

helpful to the person that's creating a one or two or three day event where

you're trying to create experiences within that, but also making the whole

thing memorable and transformational.

But I, during the pandemic, I, I put it on the shelf 'cause no one cares.

And so then I turned over and I wrote a book that hasn't been published 'cause

I don't have an audience for it yet, but I basically wrote a book on gratitude.

And you know, is more of a faith-based book.

But I wrote 90 blog posts in 90 days about gratitude.

And so it's waiting for the right time and right place.

And then I came back to this, but in the process started writing a book

called, um, how to Create a Boring Event.

I thought that would be really humorous, like a miniature book on, on Facebook.

But in the process and talking to people, they say, well, I'm not gonna buy that.

I don't wanna learn how to create boring events.

And they didn't see the humor, so you obviously got it.

Um, so then I came back to the original concept, rewrote the

outline and was able to finish it.

But it was a lot of fits and starts and, um, getting into

the habit of daily writing.

For me, as you know, since I have a day job.

I had to figure out how do I get up early?

How do I carve out the time?

One of the things I had to do was just say, you know what?

I'm gonna be okay with seven minutes of writing today.

Mm-hmm.

As long as I get seven minutes in, I'm gonna be okay.

And you know, and obviously in my mind I'm like, I know I'm not gonna finish a

book if I only write seven minutes a day.

But that was just trying to get the engine going.

You know, it's just like I'm doing them right now.

It's like I'm showing up and I'm gonna be there for 30 minutes and I'm just

gonna keep moving for 30 minutes.

That's, that's all I'm doing.

Yeah.

I don't care if I sweat.

I don't care where my heart rate is.

I'm just, so, I had to do the same thing with writing, and then slowly

it became 30 minutes and 45 minutes, and I was working up to getting

700 to a thousand words a day.

And, you know, and then, you know, and the, and the rest is history, so to speak.

You know, working with the editor and all the process.

It's, uh, it's a long process and they don't tell you when you sign

a proposal and a contract write the book that you're only, the book

itself is about 30% of the process.

The other 70 is in marketing.

They don't, they don't tell you that up front.

They wait till you finish it and they say, oh, by the way, you're, you're,

you're not even close to halfway done yet.

So

yeah.

Funny, fun games.

Well, it's, it's a fantastic that you've done that and I'm really

interested in the gratitude book as well, but that, that's for the future.

Um, and I, I wonder whether like, you know, focusing on the negative is that

was actually helped you focus on wall.

What, what's a really bad event?

What's a really boring event?

So then, then you can then focus on what makes a really memorable event.

But you, we, before we started recording today, you, we, we, you mentioned

the fact that we should probably call it unforgettable experiences.

What, what's the difference?

What, why should we be thinking about experiences rather than events?

Uh, and then I'd love to hear your thoughts on.

Maybe two or three points on what, what, what the kind of the core

pillars to an unforgettable experience.

I just, I wanted to differentiate experience from events because events

in my mind is a bit more of a narrow word than experience because there's

experiences that we can create, we can, we can create an experience on this podcast,

and I hope we do before we're done.

Um, we proposed it if we have time.

So there's, there's experiences that you can create in a lot of different

places that you're not expecting.

A restaurant creates experiences, a hotel creates experiences like, you

know, people have been writing about the experience economy for the last

decade, and there's even people who, that's their title, you know, chief

Experience Officer, um, within companies.

So, Uh, I would wanted to frame it so that the content of the book would be

relevant to people who are thinking about experiences, but the primary

focus of the book is on experiences within the context of events.

But if you think about what an event is, it's really a series of a bunch

of different moments or a bunch of different experiences, and you, you

want to create a bunch of positive.

Memorable moments and not negative, and you'd like to forget about moments, um,

within an event so that it become, it leads up to that moment of transformation

and becomes one of those highlight real experiences like you had in the early

days at Social Media Marketing World.

Or it could be, you know, it could be somewhere else.

It's not really about how do you create a great concert.

You know, we both have musical backgrounds.

There's principles in it.

That could relate, but it is about a broader sense of experience, and yet

mostly it's written with my experience as an event director and producer,

um, over the last 25, 30 years.

Hmm.

Yeah.

So could you, could you share maybe two or three, what, what are

the core two or three things that we should be thinking about when

wanting to create an unforgettable.

Experience.

What, what are the things?

And, and may maybe part of that is what we shouldn't be thinking

about, but uh, what are the things that we should be focusing on?

Yeah.

Well

one of the things that I unpack is, um, it's not laid out

exactly like this in the book.

'cause it's something I've even thought about.

Even this, if you're a book author, aspiring book author, you keep writing

once you're done with the book.

So, and you keep, keep thinking, but the unforgettable formula

for me, Is make something that is memorable, meaningful, and momentous.

So, you know, in the context of making something memorable, you're thinking

about doing something that is unexpected.

You're thinking about doing thing, you're combining things that

aren't normally done together.

So, you know, imagine a, an opera singing cricket player.

Again, I mean that, those are two things that you know, but that's probably not

something you've ever seen done, right?

No.

And so, and, and if you did, you'd remember it.

So, um, but it's also looking at things like multisensory.

Planning.

So we know from science that the olfactory senses have the most

powerful connection to memories.

And if I were to ask you, what smell can you smell when you think about

your happy place, or what smell reminds you of grandma and your happiest

days, there's probably something that comes to mind immediately.

There's probably also if I said, tell me something, that when you

smell it, it makes you sick to your stomach and you remember the first

time that you smelled that smell, you probably could go there too.

So, Th those three things can help to make something memorable and being

intentional about the use of those things.

The unexpected, the co combination of the familiar and multisensory,

and there's more that goes into that.

Um, but it's all built on the understanding that came from the 19th

century German psychologist, um, effing who created the, the forgetting curve.

You may have heard of this.

Yes.

People.

Pain only 50% of what they've learned within an, they've forgotten

50% within an hour, and they've forgotten up to 90% within a month.

So the more things that we can do to make something sticky, to make something

stand out, to get them, remembering it, rehearsing it, um, the more likely

they are to remember it later, and then it's gonna have a more powerful impact.

And so that's where the meaningful comes in.

So we're taking something that's memorable and now we're gonna make it meaningful.

'cause now we're gonna make it personal.

We're gonna say, Hey, this, we know in your, your journey as a customer,

as an attendee, as you know, whoever you are, you could be a speaker.

That things that are happening here are, are personally significant and

we wanna draw that significance out.

We want to do things in an impactful way, in a way that you're gonna.

Learn, but we want to also give you the chance to rehearse it and tell

yourself stories that you will, that will serve you as you go back to your

home or back to your office, or back to whatever it is that you're going to do.

So the meaningful has to do with that customer journey and how we make it

significant, how we get the right content.

There, you know, meaningful means it's gotta, you've gotta have

the right conversations, you gotta have the right lessons.

You need to understand what the needs are of your audience, and

it needs to be presented in a way that is gonna be felt and seen.

And then we work toward Momentous.

And Momentous is based on the work of, uh, the Power of Moments, which you may

know that book by Chip and Dan Heath.

Um, and one of the things that they say in that book is not

all moments are created equally.

I like to say not all moments are remembered equally.

And so I like to look at, um, within an event, what are those peak moments?

What are those places that if I influence those moments and make them

really good, it will make some of those negative moments and some of those

just inevitable moments that you can't help, um, not feel so consequential.

So I know that first impressions is one of those.

I know that the last impression, how you leave people feeling

at the end is very important.

And I know there's some other moments along the way that may be in common or may

be unique to different people, but I need to understand what those are, and then I

need to intentionally design those in a way that stands out and it's highlighted.

And, you know, and I also need to be aware of where, where, where can

people fall off the train or I like to say, fall off the merry-go-round.

Um, where, where are they likely to get thrown off?

Where are they likely to get so bored that they get off

and don't want to get back on?

I need to be aware of those moments and have a plan for it.

Um, but in general I'm trying to focus on what are those powerful moments and

um, and if you stack a bunch of those together, You're gonna create something

that is gonna be unforgettable, and especially if it's been memorable

along the way, and if you've made sure that it's meaningful to the audience

that's there and you've stacked those moments together in the right way,

then I think that leads you toward creating unforgettable experiences.

And you know, you do enough of those who you've got unforgettable events, um, or

concerts or you know, venues or whatever.

And even this, even episodes like this on a live show or podcast or video

can be, um, unforgettable as well.

There's so much that you packed in there, Phil.

Thank you so much for that.

I mean, the, I've, I've gotta have a, a field day extracting some of the,

the, the little bits from that to put post on Instagram and things like that.

Uh, if.

If you want to have more, if you want to hear more and find out more about

this, you need to buy Phil's book, uh, just go to your favorite bookstore,

search for Unforgettable, search for Phil, Phil hon in there, and you'll

find that, um, it's, it's gonna be, it's, it's, I I haven't read it yet,

but I'm so excited about reading it, uh, because I've been to, I've been to some

of your events, Phil, so I, I know the attention to detail that you put into it.

Well, we're almost out of time before we, um, You, you have this idea that,

um, you, you, you've thrown me into.

But before we get into that, um, tell us how, uh, is is there a a place

that we can go to, to find out more about you in the book and where's the

best place to follow you on socials?

Yeah, so you're gonna find all my social links and a way to get a signed

copy of the book if you're in the us.

I don't ship to, uh, outside the US right now, but I, I'm gonna eventually

have a way to get signatures to you, but go to filmer sean.com and then

in terms of favorite, uh, social media platforms, I'd say Facebook and

LinkedIn will be the two best places.

I'm on Twitter, I'm on Instagram.

I.

I avoid TikTok and threads is really kind of, um, thread bear right now.

Yes, indeed.

It is.

The, the joys of social media right now, it's all completely gone mad.

It's all changed, isn't it?

Um, so yeah.

You, you mentioned about the conversation we had quite a few

years ago about me embracing.

My mus my musical background with what I do and my business, and I've

always been inspired by what you do.

You, you, you are.

Multi-talented.

You're, you're, you're now a writer as if, uh, all the other stuff that

you, you, you can do really well, be saxophonist, you sing, uh, you

write music, uh, you do events.

You s I mean, what, where do I, where do I stop?

Uh, so like, what, what's your thought?

What are we gonna do now to make this memorable or unforgettable I should say?

We're gonna create an unexpected experience because that's what we do.

So, um, I'm gonna ask you a couple questions, Ian.

Yeah.

So first of all, what's, uh, what's one or two ideas or words that stand out

from the conversation that we just had?

Oh, right.

Putting me on the spot.

Um, I think it, I think, I don't, I, you didn't use this word, but I

think empathy, thinking about the, the, the what the, the people at the

events or the experience are thinking about it from their point of view.

I think that's a really important thing.

Um, what else would be, um, and it was also just before what you were saying

about, um, Your, your confidence story about, uh, the, the battle within your,

your brain as well and how to, uh, to change to, there's a book about this

isn't there, but it's changing that soundtrack in your head as well, so

a couple of different things there.

Yeah.

Okay.

Um, there's a word that I've heard you use in this conversation and in some

that we've had privately, and I've seen a lot of people use this recently,

and that's this word, un I feel stuck.

Um, and I need to get stuck and figure out my way.

And so here's what I'm gonna do.

Um, now let me ask you one last question.

Uh, major or minor?

Oh,

I'm gonna say minor.

'cause I like minor.

It's, it's, mi minor gets a bad rap.

Okay, so let's, let's go.

Go for it.

I'm all about the minor.

Um, all.

Name, name a key, anywhere from C to

B, B, B.

Double sharp.

No, I'm joking.

Um, d uh, can we do D minor?

Is that okay?

Sure.

All

right.

It's gonna be an E minor.

Um, and well, I'm gonna, I'm, I'm not gonna, Put any more limits on it that

Alright, so this is gonna be the unstuck song, uh, done in an empathetic way that

will hopefully inspire Ian and all of us to get unstuck and find our confidence

and go create some unforgettable moments.

That was beautiful haunting.

Am I allowed to say that?

I think it was, yeah.

Yeah.

You've got, you've got an amazing ministry there, Phil.

It's just, just the, just also being able to just improvise on a, on a, an emotion,

on a, on a thought is, is amazing.

Cool.

Hmm.

Cool.

Well, thanks for letting me create that experience and this conversation.

I've enjoyed it, man.

Definitely.

Well, there you go.

You see that is an unforgettable experience right on the show.

Thank you, Phil for that.

It's been great to have you on the show.

I, I feel that, um, we've got so much we could have talked about, but we'll

leave it there with people wanting more.

Do get the book unforgettable in all good bookstores as they say.

And thank you Phil, for coming on the show.

It's been great to have you.

Thank you so much.

It's been been brilliant.

Well, we are out of time.

Thank you so much for plugging us into your ears or for

watching, uh, this video as well.

It's been great to have you here, but until next time, I encourage you to level

up your impact, authority, and profits through the power of Confident Live video.

See you soon.

Bye.

Thanks for watching the Confident Live Marketing Show with Ian Anderson Gray.

Make sure you subscribe at Iag me slash podcast so you can continue to

level up your impact, authority, and profits through the power of Live video.