David Pullen: The DNA, we should
say, doesn't stand for
deoxyribonucleic acid. It stands
for dream. No, it doesn't. No,
it stands for Dream, Nightmare
action, which is the pattern we
live in life. And this pattern
of dream, Nightmare action is
how we we understand, plan and
problem solve our lives every
day, every day, every moment of
the day, from getting the kids
up to trying to solve the
climate crisis is this, what do
we do? What's the dream? What's
going to get in the way of it,
the nightmare? What actions do
we take? We discovered that the
best way to build the trust and
drive the engagement and
influence the change is start by
understanding the other person
and connecting to their dream
before you start forcing the
problems and the actions you
Katie Flamman: Hello and welcome
to storytelling for business,
the podcast that helps you
connect with your customers and
clients by simply using stories.
Of course, there's nothing
actually simple about it, but
we'll get to that. I'm Katie
Flamen. I'm a voice actor
specialising in corporate
storytelling, I work remotely
with clients all over the world,
clients like AmEx, Pfizer and
Nat Geo, but I love working with
SMEs, small to medium sized
enterprises and startups as
well. Everyone big or small gets
the same level of service
because weirdly, doesn't really
matter to me who you are or how
big you are, what matters is the
stories you're telling. That's
what I love about my job. And
you see, in corporate marketing,
some stories, some scripts, are
better than others, and I wanted
to find out why that is. What
are the ingredients and what's
the formula for a great story,
one that makes the hairs stand
up on the back of your neck,
makes you want to cry, makes you
feel seen. Those feelings are
intense, and if they're
happening when you're watching
an advert or a brand film or
reading a post on LinkedIn, that
is powerful. So the storytelling
for business podcast is on a
mission to understand all this
stuff. I'm talking to
storytelling experts and real
life regular business owners
too, who have interesting jobs
and, of course, fascinating
stories. And today's episode,
it's gonna be a cracker, because
I've got the pleasure of talking
to David Pullen and Sarah Jane
McKechnie, who are the story
spotters. So quick intro, David
and Sarah Jane are, in my view,
the power couple of the
storytelling world. They offer
business consulting, coaching
and training. They've worked
with a few companies you might
have heard of, Microsoft, ey,
PwC, Novartis, AXA, American
Express, I could go on. They
work with clients, all kinds of
clients, to discover, develop
and deliver a strategic story
that connects and wins. And they
very kindly shared the tricks of
their trade with all of us in
the exceptional new book, The
DNA of engagement. Here it is.
Well, anyway, that's quite
enough from me. Let's actually
let them talk for a minute. So
let's meet them. David Pullen
and Sarah. Jane McKechnie,
welcome to storytelling for
business. Hello. Thank you,
David Pullen: Katie, that's
gonna be incredibly hard to talk
on the wake of your amazing
introduction. Thank you. Excuse,
after years of working together
and more years of marriage to
actually have to cuddle up to
get into
Unknown: shots, your first ever
cuddle on camera. I bet it
isn't.
Katie Flamman: Okay, let's start
so you are the story spotters.
What does that mean? How did
that become a thing?
David Pullen: Well, there are
two things there. There's what
it means and how it came to be.
I mean, if I, if I say how it
came to be, then Sergeant can
explain exactly what story
spotting means, because it's as
opposed to it incorporates
storytelling, but it has other
elements to it as well. I mean,
as you said earlier on, I mean
Sarah Jane McKechnie and David
Pullen, which are two of the
names that are often misspelt
and more often mispronounced. So
for years, we were called
McKechnie Pullen limited, which
sounded like a sort of Midlands
estate agent. And I was doing
some work in during lockdown,
actually, with a guy called Neil
Bearden, who was the he was,
he's a stats prof, or was a
stats prof at INSEAD in
Singapore. And he got in touch
with me on LinkedIn and said,
Listen, everything's going
online. He taught storytelling
at INSEAD as well. Said, Listen,
I'm taking it all online. I've
got sort of too much to do.
Would you come and support me on
this? To which I said, Yeah,
brilliant, absolutely. And we
got on really well. And one
night after, because I say night
because it was happening all
over the world, and I'd be
drinking espresso at three
o'clock. In the morning. Oh,
yeah, but fun, because really
interesting people. And Neil
said, I really like what you do,
David, what actually do you do?
And I said, Well, essentially,
what Sarah, Jane and I do is we
go into organisations and we
whether it's a change programme,
whether it's a sales programme,
whatever we we listen to the
fact that they're talking until
we sort of, you know, little
like Haley Joel Osment in who
says, I saw, I see dead people.
We see stories. So we listen to
the facts, and we go, I think
the story you're trying to tell
is this. And people say, Oh,
that's exactly what it is. Let's
use that story as the as the hub
off which the the spokes of the
facts and the data drive.
Katie Flamman: If you're in
business, I'm so sorry. I'm
interrupting you for a sec. If
you're in business, you kind of,
you think in sort of bullet
points and PowerPoints maybe,
don't you? And, and, I mean, it
seems to me that what you've
just described is kind of seeing
the heart behind, behind that or
or the emotion behind the thing.
It's
David Pullen: that combination
of logic and emotion, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Sarah Jane McKechnie: I mean,
our lives are a story. Yeah. You
know, when we every day that we
live it's a story that that's
the thing we we live through
stories. So it's an incredibly
natural way to communicate, to
understand things, to be able to
make somebody else understand
what you're talking about. And
understanding is so incredibly I
mean, obviously understanding is
the base of collaboration. So
it's story is it's fundamental,
David Pullen: what it's what's
allowed us to sort of rise up
the food chain, essentially, and
sort of be the ones that you
know have, for want of a better
word, dominated the planet,
because we do understand and
plan and problem solve our lives
through this, as Sarah James
says, this concept, what is the
story of our lives? And we help
and, well, this is what Neil
said. He said, Oh, you're a
story spot. You help people spot
the stories. And we said, well,
we are. Now,
Katie Flamman: that's a catchy
business name. Neil. How? Well,
okay, so there's a bit, a little
bit on your website, which is
this very cute little video.
It's like, it's like the kind
of, you know, the about us
section on your video on your
website, and there's this sweet
little video called 90 seconds
with the story spotters, and
it's each of you guys sitting on
a sofa, and it cuts between,
it's one question, and then each
of you answers it, and there's
questions like, What's your
favourite breakfast and who was
your first kiss? And then under
that, there's a more kind of
traditional CV, with the bullet
points, explaining how you both
used to be actors and you've
performed on stages around the
world and how you've been script
writers for leaders and teams
and trained as coaches and
studied hypnotherapy. However, I
have remembered all the things,
but it's the smashed avocado and
the behind the bike bike shed
kiss that I remembered first,
and that also, that also kind of
endeared me to you, even though
I knew already. So that's kind
of illustrating what Sarah Jane,
what you're saying, isn't it
about we're always telling
stories. They're little, tiny
snippets on those videos, but
each one is a story, and it
Unknown: creates a picture, and
it creates a you know, the
connection is so much stronger
as soon as you can and see and
then you can and and sharing
that, that kind of, even if it's
very small, you're sharing
experiences. You're igniting
something in somebody else's
mind, because they're going,
they're going, then to the story
that they have about any
situation. And it's, it is our
way. I mean, the the basis of
the story, spotters really is,
is we look at story in four
ways. Which is, one is the
stories that you tell, which,
when you tell a story, you
ignite things in other people's
minds. That's, that's the thing,
and it's a wonderful way of
explaining things because,
because that is how we live, we,
as I said, are, you know, every
day is a story. So the stories
that we tell in order to explain
the stories that we listen for,
which is incredibly important
because by stories out of others
and and being able to understand
people better if we if we hear
the stories and are interested
in other people's stories, so
it's a that's the connection
that is so important, the
stories that we tell by our
behaviours, which say it's how
we show up, and all That pieces,
the how we treat people, all
those kinds of things, tells a
story and and has an effect on
other people around. And then
there are the stories. My
favourite, really, yeah. It's
the stories that we tell
ourselves, this concept, Oh,
yeah. And we have that rambling
that we have that thing. All the
time, and, and when we come,
when we you know, somebody might
say something, and all of a
sudden it jars. And we are
remembering something. And
we're, we're, we're triggered
yeah by something Yeah. And it's
understanding that and, and it
can sort of scupper all sorts of
conversations which, which are
needed again, for this
collaboration, so to understand
that and to understand what
triggers why, and instead of,
instead of kind of having that
initial reaction to it, which
might scupper you is get curious
instead. So, so
David Pullen: how can you
reframe your own story,
Katie Flamman: turning your fear
into excitement, turning your
turning your trigger into
curiosity, yeah, yeah,
David Pullen: it's there's
something that you said there
Katie about just remembering the
stories we told about kisses
behind bike sheds and stuff like
that. And and this picks up on
what Sarah Jane was saying as
well. I think that the power of
the story is, is, is, is that
combination of, it's essentially
a fact in context which which
brings the fact to life. And,
you know, there's so much
written on everywhere about
leadership and vulnerability,
but what does that actually
mean? And I think, I think the
act of storytelling is an act of
vulnerability in itself. Yes,
you're letting people into your
heart as well as your head, and
you're risking that somebody
might say, well, I don't agree
with you, which is great,
because then you're in a
discussion and it's, um, well,
Katie Flamman: then you've
already made a connection.
Whether they agree with you or
not, they've engaged with what
you're saying. Couldn't agree
David Pullen: more. Yeah,
exactly, yeah. So, oh,
Katie Flamman: I love it. We're
getting down to the get down to
the nitty gritty already. I've
got feeling a bit goose bumpy.
Okay, so we've, we've sort of
skirted around it, but story has
value, and all of those
different four types of story so
that, I mean, there's a whole,
there's a whole podcast episode
slash book on that stuff. But so
let's kind of, let's talk about
your book, right? The book is
called the DNA of engagement. So
come on, tell me, tell us. Tell
us all about the book. I've
waved it around that I'll just
say, first, it's super fun. It's
got pictures and diagrams and
The Sarah Jane Adventures, and
it's divided into Acts and
scenes, and it's really
accessible and fun, but it's a
kick ass blueprint, seriously,
or an action plan for, well, for
some really, really heavy stuff.
So So tell us about the book.
What's the point of your book,
please? Well,
David Pullen: I have to say we
were the people who never wanted
to write a book, because
basically, who needs another
business book? I mean, they're
usually like a blog that got out
of hand, and so it's, you know,
we three things happened. I
mean, one, there was, well, one,
there was somebody who sort of
saw the stuff we do on LinkedIn
and said, You guys have got a
tone of voice. You should really
think about writing someone then
we were doing this particular
piece of work with Aviva, which
under the leadership of Amanda
block, named Amanda Blanc, when
she was changing the strategy of
the company, when she
essentially said to her 200 top
leaders, this is the strategy.
We're slimming the company down
in this way. This is the forward
thinking. I can't do it myself.
You have to make this happen.
And there was a big piece of
work that was was led by
Accenture about the strategy and
what the leaders actually did
mentally around that, when they
suddenly realised, okay, that's
one thing, but they then have to
go out and have the
conversations, which get the
which get the 22,000 people at
the time in the organisation to
lean in. Oh yeah, I want to be
part of that. So they brought us
on board to create that part of
the programme about, how do you
get people, essentially, to be
excited by the possibility, and
then also, co create the future.
CO create the story, which is
really important. Actually, you
can tell people's stories, but
if they, if they, if they add to
it themselves, and, yes, you
know, colour the stories
themselves, then they, they are
more likely to buy into the
story and make the story happen.
So the book really is the it's
the journey of how we actually
did that piece of work, plus
tonnes of other stuff that
we've, we've done right
throughout our careers with
leaders, and that's what it is.
And it's, yeah, it's, it's
designed, really, as a guide to
help people on the journey,
people who have to have the
conversations that build trust,
which is the primary thing
driving, which will drive
engagement, and therefore
influence change, whether it's,
you know, changing the direction
of a company or, you know,
changing your partner's mind
about a restaurant that they
don't want to go to. Yes,
that's, that's always more,
that's always a difficult one.
Katie Flamman: Yeah. I mean, we
all know, we all know where the
serious challenges are, right?
Unknown: Technically, of course,
Katie.
Katie Flamman: So, okay,
building trust everybody. That's
what everybody wants, right?
Know, like and trust all of that
stuff. Yeah, so I think, I think
we've touched on it with talking
about your little video and
talking about vulnerability. But
how, how? How do we get them to
trust us.
David Pullen: Well, do you want
to talk about the whole
understanding thing? Because
there's a, you know, we say it's
basically the DNA. We should say
doesn't stand for
deoxyribonucleic acid. It stands
for green. No, it doesn't No,
although we think it's as
equally valid and worthy of a
Nobel Prize. Plus,
Katie Flamman: I love it that
you just said that as well.
David Pullen: Yes, exactly. That
would have been. Had to edit
that one. It's a it stands for
Dream, Nightmare action, which
is a pattern that we all this is
the thing that Sarah Jane was
saying about, about the the
pattern we live in life. We have
a dream. We have something that
we want to achieve. We want to
get on the call this morning
with Katie, and it's going to be
fantastic. And then the
nightmare is, you know, you've
got to update your system or
something like that. That gets
in the way, and you've got five
minutes to do. So the action is
you start racing around trying
to get it all done. And this
pattern of dream, Nightmare,
action is how we we understand,
plan and problem solve our lives
and what we every day, every
day, every moment of the day,
from getting the kids up to
trying to solve the climate
crisis, is, what do we do?
What's the dream? What's going
to get in the wave at the
nightmare? What actions do we
take? And we just we discovered
that the best way this dream to
build the trust and drive the
engagement and influence the
change is start by understanding
the other person and connecting
to their dream before you start
forcing the problems and the
actions. If you want to talk
about that understanding,
Unknown: I mean, it's, it is.
It's, it's, it's if, I mean,
it's like a toddler, isn't it?
If you say to a toddler, you
know, and you're furious, and
you just want them to do
something, put your wellies on,
and they're determined not to do
that because they don't want to
put their wellies on. You have
to find a different way doing
it. So you have to connect to
the dream. And you know that
lovely pond and puddle that you
like playing with in the park,
right? Well, we can go there
today. I think it was very nice
to go down, but you won't be
able to go in the water unless
you put your wellies on. So
would it be a good idea to put
them on now and then we can have
a really good splash. The thing
is that we often what we do is
want to put them on what they're
not on and because you, because
it's your plan, that you think,
no, I've got to go to the park
now because, and then I've got
to, you know, time
to discuss it and
David Pullen: actually do
discussing it saves time in the
end. Yes,
Unknown: and it's, it's that
whole thing of, I mean, on the
basic level of this is if you
connect to people's dreams, if
you, if you connect to people in
the way that they need to be
connected. I mean, it's your
thing about connection before
correction. It's, it's the the
if you can connect and show that
you understand and and you, you,
you are. You've heard, you've
listened. I mean, all these
things that allow space and
connection and and then only
then, when people are doing what
you're doing now, which is
nodding, you know, it's that,
yeah, yes, okay, this person
understands me. It's so it's
such a basic human need that
then only then can you really
have the right to say, but, but
this is, this is, you know, yes,
exactly. This might not happen
because, and give a reason. So
it's, I think one of the things
that's so important is to always
remember that you have to care
for your and I'm going to use
the word audience, and what I'm
audience is anybody that,
whether it's a toddler, whether
it's, you know, 1000 people in a
hall, whether it's your direct
reports, or whoever it is, yes,
is, is you absolutely have to
care about how they're going to
get this message, what what
their agenda is and or what you
can agree with with that's
David Pullen: interesting. You
said those two words connection
and understanding and
reconnecting. And it's, it's
interesting. I mean, one of the
things that we often think about
is that, is that this trust is
built on understanding, and the
understanding is is twofold. I
mean, we tend to trust those who
we feel have understood us, who
have connected with Yes, but we
also trust things that we find
it easy to understand, which is
where storytelling comes in,
because storytelling just puts
everyone. The same page they
have, they have a vivid picture
of what things are going to look
like. So being understood and
making people understand are the
basis of building trust. Really.
Unknown: I is an example that I
often use in workshops, and it's
if you imagine that you're
together for a family reunion or
something, or some sort of, I
don't know, some, some festival
that you're, that you have, and
the family is there, and there's
Uncle Fred, who you never
normally see, and he is, he
won't talk about anything other
than fishing, so you know,
that's his hobby. And so,
because we are also getting his
wellies on, but because we are
in that, in those kinds of
family, you know, often where we
feel benign, and it's a it's a
celebration and everything we
have, the patience and the
understanding. Go up to Uncle
Fred and say, Oh, have you been
fishing lately? And we will
listen and ask questions,
because we care, yeah, and I
think, I think, you know this,
this kind of the fact that we
do, we do it automatically in
certain situation, but when the
pressures on, and when we have,
when we have a whole load of
things, because, because we're
kind of one track in terms of
this is what I need to do. This
is a we, we stop. We kind of
want to bypass that, because all
the humanity that we actually
have often, can it can recede?
David Pullen: Can't it? No, it's
really interesting. Yeah,
Katie Flamman: it's a beautiful
example, isn't it? Because we
David Pullen: might write the
book. Next book might be called
the Fred effect, but
Katie Flamman: I think, in a
corporate setting, so you're not
really interested in fishing,
right? But, but you care about
Uncle Fred, and you care that he
is interested in fishing, so you
want to tease out that that
conversation and make him feel
welcome and make him feel seen.
And you know, did you want
another piece of cake, all of
all of that stuff? And in a
corporate setting, you're maybe
not. You don't really
necessarily care about your
client's thing, but you have to
care. You have to properly care
and invest in the thing and
learn about the thing because
they care. And actually, by the
end of it, you probably do care.
I think it's
Unknown: a case of, also we
have, we have huge agendas that
we have, you know, things that
we need to, that we have to
achieve, and all that kind of
thing, which isn't, there's
nothing wrong with that, but
it's, it's fraught. You know,
there's, there's a lot going on.
And so it is it is it is more
likely that we don't stop
breathe and think about
actually, this is a
Katie Flamman: conversation. I
think that's really important,
because we are all so time poor,
yes, in our personal lives and
and in our working lives,
everybody wants to just cut to
the chase and get on with it. So
so let's talk about a few kind
of like actual, useful, hard
fact tip, things that people can
do to help them. And I
appreciate that you've just
described you have to take the
time. You can't rush this stuff.
But if you've only got limited
amount of time, how do you
maximise the productivity of
that time that you've got?
David Pullen: Can I tell you one
Yeah. I mean, you're right. You
do have to take the time, but it
doesn't take a huge amount of
time because, I mean, one of the
things we talk about in the book
Katie is a thing called triune
brain theory, which was
developed in Yale in the 60s,
and it's been sort of slightly
outmoded now with sort of like
neuro imagery and advances in
neuroscience and but there's a
basic premise behind it, which
is still true for communication,
is that our brain works in three
ways. There's the there's the
reptilian, the oldest part of
our brain, which is basically
pattern matching, and sort of
going, do I like this person? Do
I trust them? Can do I actually
want to be around them? That's
the first gatekeeper of the
brain that sort of gets you so
it's how you show up in the
room. Is, is, is huge about
that. I mean, do you look like
somebody they want to spend time
with? The second part of the
brain is the is the limbic
system, the emotional part, if
you like, which is, which is the
one that wants to feel, have I
been understood? Only then do we
get to the newest part of our
brain, which is the, which is
the neocortex, which is the, you
know, rational problem solving
stuff. And I think the time poor
thing is, means that in
business, what we often do is we
rush to that without getting
past the two gatekeepers first.
And I think the simple tip is,
is really just to Sarah Jane's
point. Breathe before you go
into any situation, before you
switch the teams. Call on,
before you walk through a room,
just think to yourself, how am I
going to show up in this room?
Who am I bringing into this
space? Just show up as your best
self. Connect. Don't put on it's
not about. Putting on an act,
but it's about genuinely showing
up with presence and warmth. And
the warmth is the the presence
is looking and sounding like you
don't want to be anywhere else
except right here, right now, in
this moment, fully focused,
focused, absolutely focused. And
then the warmth is about showing
that you've considered the other
person, that what you are doing
is is is not orientated towards
yourself, but it is orientated
towards the greater good, or the
other person, or whatever it is.
So quite simply, show up well,
and then make the first thing
that comes out of your mouth,
something that shows the other
person that you have considered
them. That's the that's the
easiest way to
Unknown: do that. I think this
thing of breathing is so
important, and I've talked about
this quite often, is, is this
the whole thing of we rush from
one meeting to another meeting,
and often there's, there's, you
know, files, lifts, whatever you
know, getting in the end, yeah,
yeah. And we don't really, I
think that there is a sort of
mental thing that goes on
because we know we've got to but
we don't allow our bodies to
rest. And the thing is that it's
not just our brains that are
going into the meeting. It's our
entire being that's going and so
I think there's a something that
I learned some time ago from a
she, and she was a very, very
wise meditation teacher, and she
called it the change breath. So
when you, if you think about,
you're in a meeting, and you're,
you're, you know, you've had all
sorts of stimuli and all that
kind of things. Loads of
remember those. Remember taken
notes and everything. And yet,
then you go out, clutching your
files, whatever, and going
straight to another meeting. And
that transition, it's so easy if
you just sort of, if you, if you
kind of, like, launch into the
other meeting, you're still full
of what you've just been trying
to grapple with. And so there's
this whole of actually, just
physically, physically trying to
kind of calm yourself
afterwards. So go somewhere,
even if it's in the lift, just
really breathe in through your
nose and really feel your
diaphragm expanding. And just so
big breath in, and then a slow
breath out through the mouth,
and you can do that a couple of
times. And what it does, it just
frees up the body. Because we
often feel we forget, sometimes
I think that we have a body
that's giving off all sorts of
signals that is taking our head
from meeting to meeting, and so
that to actually do that, and it
can really start to calm, just
clear the brain a little bit
punctuation. It is, it is, and,
and that, I think, is, is such
an important thing, impressively
important.
Katie Flamman: I'm doing lots of
work on this, actually, trying
to get out of my head and back
into my body and just and also.
So, I mean, if people are
working from home, there's the
opportunity to go for a walk,
like 20 minutes of just physical
get it out through whatever's
just happened, walk it out. Get
it out through your body. And
that's that's not a direction I
expected this conversation to go
in, but it's so important and
and you always have your breath
as a support. It's always there.
It's got you. So whatever else
is going on,
Unknown: this is the kind of the
the part of the stories is the
stories that you tell by your
behaviour is what? Because if
you go in and you're tense,
that's going to show and but
it's it, but it's also the
stories you're telling yourself,
Katie Flamman: imposter
syndrome, all
Unknown: of that stuff kind of
connect really clearly that,
right? Okay, I can deal with
this. Let's breathe it out and
let's focus now on this. Often,
I think we don't give ourselves
enough chance to do that, to
allow the brain the body to kind
of connect,
Katie Flamman: and it's only a
second, isn't it? It's like it's
one minute, one minute, maybe
maximum. Yeah, exactly. I just
wanted to pick up on something
that, David, you said a minute
ago about warmth and considering
the other person, because it's
really, it's fascinating as as a
voice actor, quite often the
direction I get will be warm,
yeah, and, and actually, they
don't want me to sound warm.
They want the person I'm talking
to to feel warm. Yes, yeah, and,
and that's the and that's
exactly what you were talking
about. Like you show up and you
want them to feel like you've
considered them. You want them
to feel that that being seen.
Yeah, no, that's good. That's
just joined a few dots. For me,
David Pullen: it's interesting.
I mean, it's, I mean, we often.
We often boil this down. We were
talking to a client about this
yesterday. In fact, we often,
when we're working with people,
and especially on a particular
project, we we have these three
areas of presence, warmth and
power that we we, we always sort
of judge, or sort of yes, we
have a tick box, and it starts
with, as I said earlier, the
presence of, does this person
look and sounds as if they don't
want to be anywhere else except,
right? Else except right here,
right now and then. It's the
warmth. Do they look and sounds
as if they if they have taken
the other person into
consideration, and then, and
only then comes the power, which
is, do I believe their values?
Do I believe their their system
of belief? Do I believe what
they're saying to me? And I
think too often, going back to
what we said earlier about
people being time poor and sort
of having KPIs and things like
that to hit in business, we we
sort of go, I've just got to get
all my power out without
considering those two incredibly
important bits of presence, and
as you say, the warmth.
Unknown: I mean, because that's
what leadership is. It's
bringing people with you. I
mean, that that's thing, isn't
it? It's and we, we. That's why
we have to think about what we
say in certain situations and
and I suppose what what we do is
we, we help people understand
the story that they're in in any
situation, and allow and and
give people the the wherewithal
to be able to decide, okay, how
the easy ways of how we're going
to tackle this. Now
David Pullen: it's funny, I'm
I'm about to start a project
next week with a big client, and
they're working on a massive
pitch for a piece of work. And I
can almost guarantee that I'll
walk in there on Tuesday morning
and they present their first
draft to me. It'll be something
about they're going through
their credentials and
everything. And my first job
will be saying, can please, can
you start by saying something
that you've learned about them
through all the site visits that
you've been on? Just connect,
just show that you've been
present and that you've listened
and that you've understood.
Katie Flamman: It's all about
them. It's all about them. And
that is not, yeah, well, but it
kind of is. It isn't, but it is.
That's yourself, that that is
the driving engagement, isn't
it? That's the connection,
that's the communication, and
that that kind of invisible
thread that comes from that
connection and the trust and the
warmth and and then so, so it's
a pitch that you're going to be
working on. So that is the third
part of of the the kind of the
three things I said at the
beginning, the influencing
change. Obviously, they want to
win their pitch and they want to
influence change. So they're
going to be benefiting from all
of your experience to help them
to do that and well done them
for recognising that they need a
bit of help.
David Pullen: You're welcome.
Thank you. Yes, our bank
manager, thanks them as well.
Katie Flamman: So what about
outside the boardroom and the
world of work? Because your DNA
framework can help people kind
of transform how they connect
with other people on a personal
level as well. It's not just
business. We're all human
beings. So can you just sort of
speak to that a little bit Well,
Unknown: I think, I mean, I have
alluded to it in terms of a
toddler and Uncle Fred and Uncle
Fred, but I remember we were
doing, oh yeah, we were doing a
workshop with some economists,
and we were talking them through
the structure of the DNA. And
one of them said that that he
had two small children. And
it's, I think it was the, oh,
the NCT, was it? Was it the NCT,
or it was it was some children
organisation that they said it
in a different way, but the sort
of the format of addressing a
child was so that you can kind
of avoid the tantrum and all
that difficulty, or them feeling
frightened and things like that,
was indeed this very similar
type of idea that you connect.
You connect with them at first
with something that they
understand, and only then can
you introduce the negative thing
about that, something that they
can't can't understand might not
happen because of something. So
why don't we do this? And I
thought it was amazing, wasn't
it? Do you remember
David Pullen: that time as well?
We were working with that D and
I team at one of our clients,
and they were so there was a
team who were driving D and I
initiatives, right? What's dei
diversity, equity and inclusion?
Katie Flamman: Oh, right, right.
Okay, yes. So
David Pullen: they were a team
of relatively young people who
were they'd been basically, they
were in charge of getting the
leadership to really drive the
Diversity Equity and Inclusion.
So, massively important,
massively important. But of
course, you know, the business
leaders have a day job to do.
They've got numbers to hit, and
so it's actually quite hard to
get them to engage with the with
the concept of it. So we were
working with them on how they
engage those leadership, the
leadership, and we went back to
do a follow up with them, and
the person who was in charge of
this team said, you know, this
is this is amazing. I mean, it
really worked. It really works
with the management. But I tell
you, when it really worked even
better was last weekend when I
was trying to plan out my
wedding with my fiance.
Katie Flamman: I mean, that's a
real, really, really useful
example. Love it. I love it.
Okay, okay. Well, I mean, we
could talk for another couple of
hours, I think, and the rest. So
we'll have to stop. But people
should buy your book. Evidently,
I would love you both to plug
your brilliant book, because it
is brilliant and and I don't
usually geek out so much about
about the offerings of my
guests, but they are, you are
all brilliant. Anyway, I'm
Wittering. Please tell us about
the book app, because it's been
nominated for prizes, and it's
amazing. So go on, go, go, go,
plug. There it is. So
David Pullen: the most exciting
thing in on September the 10th,
we'll be going to Wembley for
the Business Book of the Year
awards, and we get to wear a
frock you get to wear, I might
get to wear, yes, and the lovely
thing is, we're nominated, if so
the business book, there are
about eight different
categories, and one of the win
winners those categories will
become business book of the
year. What we're thrilled about
is that we're in the people,
culture and management category,
which is, is fantastic because
essentially, that's what the
book is about. It's about how
you create the culture for the
people and manage those people
so that change happens. So yeah,
that's the Yeah. It hit number
one on Amazon in UK, US and
Australia, and it's up for that
award September the 10th in
Wembley. People
Katie Flamman: need to go buy
it, don't they? And you are
obviously going to win the
prize. So, um, so, yay, yay.
We'll be rooting for you. Just
Unknown: be great being there.
Yeah, we'll be great. Also, it's
fascinating talking to a load of
authors. Oh, it's amazing. I
mean, that's the that's the
really exciting thing.
David Pullen: We went as guests
last year. And actually, yes,
Sarah Jane says being in a room
of authors
Unknown: is is almost as all
their stories. It's amazing,
almost as weird as being in a
room full of actors.
Katie Flamman: Surely not. Well,
congratulations. It's, it's a
it's an amazing book. It really
is. Thank you. But before,
before we go, I'd like to know,
we know a little bit about your
backstory, but I'd like to know
about your story to come what,
what? What does your story look
like for the next five years?
And you can answer individually,
or you can do it as a couple.
It's up to you.
David Pullen: I'm quite enjoying
the cuddles.
Unknown: It's yeah, I do, you
know, I, I'm a great believer
in, in, you know, you create
something and just watching it
grow. So I don't really have,
yeah, I obviously, I want to, I
want it to sort of spread more,
I guess, this whole idea. But
I'm more concerned really, or
I'm just hopeful that more
people really kind of opt for
this and kind of get it under
their belt. That's what I'd
really like, is there's so much.
I mean, you know, a politics at
the moment, I'm not going to go
in there. I mean, I just, yeah,
my eye, it's such a shame,
because we don't deserve it, and
we don't deserve lies and deceit
and all this sort of thing, and
different all the different
stories that are coming out,
which is, I
David Pullen: think this is a
great point, if
Unknown: you can only sit down
and really talk and really
discuss without being completely
and utterly just one direction
all the time, so that it's just
deep, deep, deep. Do you know
it'd be quite nice. I
David Pullen: think it would be.
I think, I mean, you know,
obviously the future. I mean,
we'd love people to buy the
book, and we'd love to work with
more people, because that's very
nice for us personally. But I
think the point that Sarah Jane
makes is incredibly important. I
mean, as you know, Katie, I
mean, the power of story is so
strong that it can be used for
good and it can be used for ILL.
So to be actually, actually
giving people the tools whereby
they can use story ethically to
really connect and make change.
Funnily enough, I wrote an
article that was published last
week called it was interesting.
The brief was what CEOs can
learn from the boring power of
Mark Carney, who's the prime
minister of of Canada. And I, my
premise was, I don't think he's
boring at all. What I think he
is measured, he's meticulous,
and he genuinely connected with
the desire of the. The of the
Canadian people and what they
hope for for their future. And
so I think the more that we can
you know, there are certain
elements in this world at the
moment who are really clever at
telling stories, and they don't
really care whether they're true
or not. Oh yeah, and they're
working. So to be able to give
good people the equal power, to
be able to use these skills,
ethic, ethically. Yes, the last
chapter of our book is called
The only way is ethics. We Yeah,
that would be great. And to earn
some money alongside love
Katie Flamman: that and any,
any, you know, holidays desserts
you want to try anything a
little bit lighter than, you
know, saving the world with the
ethics of inspiring story.
David Pullen: Well, okay,
here's, here's the thing. We're
literally back from five days.
We'd had a very last minute trip
to the Netherlands. We've just
been in the Netherlands. We were
announced lovely, quite well,
but the Hague, which was a real
surprise. And we have this, we
have this pet project that may
never, ever happen, but we
always talk about it when we go
away. Is called toga travel.
Toga stands for two old gits
abroad, because what we're
really good at doing is, is, is
just sort of getting in, just
getting into the nitty gritty of
someone, and listening to the
stories of people. And our
favourite trick is we'll find
out. We'll we'll find a really
good restaurant that we go to,
and then we say to the person in
charge of it, so where do you
reckon we should go next? And
the places that we've gone just
on recommendation, because we're
interested in listening to, you
know their recommendations. Love
to do more of that. Brilliant,
Katie Flamman: brilliant,
brilliant, well, I could tell
you about the scuba diving
holiday I went on based on a
recommendation from a taxi
driver in Ireland. But
unfortunately, we don't have
time, so we'll save that for the
next one. I think. Well, David
Pullen and Sarah, Jane
McKechnie, thank you so much for
being on the podcast. Of course,
we'll make sure that all of the
ways that people can connect
with you and work with you and
buy your book, we'll put all of
that information in the show
notes, but just tell us as well.
How can people find you both?
Well, we've
David Pullen: got a brand new,
shiny website, www dot the story
spotters.com, which has all of
the, you know, all of the
details of how we work, as you
said, both within the
consulting, coaching and
training space, and then
LinkedIn, that's where we are.
Both of us are on LinkedIn. And
go there, at your peril, because
we like using LinkedIn quite a
lot. So you're
Katie Flamman: a breath of fresh
air on LinkedIn, for sure. Thank
you both so much. Have a lovely
rest of your day. Thank you.
Thanks. Katie, bye, bye. Wow.
What a way to kick off season
two. Wasn't that epic? Okay,
brace yourself, grab grab a pen
and paper, because here are my
key takeaways. Number one, there
are four types of story. One,
the stories we tell. Two, the
stories we listen for that help
us to connect with other people.
Three, the stories we present to
the world in our behaviour and
how we show up, and four, the
stories we tell ourselves, key
takeaway number two, don't
forget your humanity. Listen. We
all live through stories. So
it's a natural way to
communicate and connect with
other people and understand one
another. I want you to imagine
arrows connecting all of this
stuff. Story equals
communication, equals
connection, equals
understanding, and understanding
leads to trust, which enables
collaboration, and that's how we
get engagement three but in
business, we can sometimes lose
sight of that emotional journey
of connection and our humanity
and we get bogged down by the
facts, whereas the story
spotters think of the facts and
the data as the outer spokes of
a wheel with story as the
central hub, which holds it all
together and enables it to turn
four. Breathe, baby. Breathe. No
matter how busy you are, take a
moment to come back to your
body. Just breathe. Calm your
nervous system. Five leadership
is bringing people with you as a
leader. You need to understand
the story you're in, and you
need to understand the DNA of
engagement, dream, Nightmare,
action, remember, so take time
to understand your audience's
dreams and. Then gently remind
them that they'll be facing a
nightmare if they don't take the
action you want before you know
it, they'll be putting on their
own wellies. Golly, that was a
lot, but wasn't it good? And
there's so much more great stuff
to come in the podcast, in next
week's episode, a bit of
showbiz.
Unknown: It was ridiculous that
this was my life. I would be
maybe going to chat to Meryl
Streep in a hotel room for a bit
about her latest film, and then
I'd be going to a recording
studio to chat to Mark Ronson or
Jay Z about their latest album,
and then maybe in the evening,
I'd go see Beyonce sing at a
kind of private like album
launch thing, and repeat that
literally every single day for
more than a decade. Natalie
Katie Flamman: Jameson,
entertainment reporter and
podcast creative tells us how
podcasting is a spectacular way
to share stories and also what
to expect if you ever meet
Daniel Craik. Essential
listening. Okay, I'm off now to
practice my story spotting
skills. I'm Katie Flamen, and
this is storytelling for
business till next time.
Goodbye. You