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David Pullen: The DNA, we should

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say, doesn't stand for

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deoxyribonucleic acid. It stands

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for dream. No, it doesn't. No,

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it stands for Dream, Nightmare

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action, which is the pattern we

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live in life. And this pattern

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of dream, Nightmare action is

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how we we understand, plan and

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problem solve our lives every

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day, every day, every moment of

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the day, from getting the kids

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up to trying to solve the

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climate crisis is this, what do

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we do? What's the dream? What's

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going to get in the way of it,

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the nightmare? What actions do

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we take? We discovered that the

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best way to build the trust and

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drive the engagement and

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influence the change is start by

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understanding the other person

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and connecting to their dream

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before you start forcing the

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problems and the actions you

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Katie Flamman: Hello and welcome

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to storytelling for business,

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the podcast that helps you

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connect with your customers and

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clients by simply using stories.

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Of course, there's nothing

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actually simple about it, but

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we'll get to that. I'm Katie

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Flamen. I'm a voice actor

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specialising in corporate

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storytelling, I work remotely

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with clients all over the world,

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clients like AmEx, Pfizer and

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Nat Geo, but I love working with

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SMEs, small to medium sized

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enterprises and startups as

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well. Everyone big or small gets

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the same level of service

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because weirdly, doesn't really

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matter to me who you are or how

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big you are, what matters is the

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stories you're telling. That's

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what I love about my job. And

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you see, in corporate marketing,

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some stories, some scripts, are

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better than others, and I wanted

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to find out why that is. What

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are the ingredients and what's

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the formula for a great story,

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one that makes the hairs stand

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up on the back of your neck,

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makes you want to cry, makes you

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feel seen. Those feelings are

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intense, and if they're

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happening when you're watching

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an advert or a brand film or

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reading a post on LinkedIn, that

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is powerful. So the storytelling

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for business podcast is on a

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mission to understand all this

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stuff. I'm talking to

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storytelling experts and real

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life regular business owners

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too, who have interesting jobs

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and, of course, fascinating

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stories. And today's episode,

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it's gonna be a cracker, because

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I've got the pleasure of talking

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to David Pullen and Sarah Jane

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McKechnie, who are the story

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spotters. So quick intro, David

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and Sarah Jane are, in my view,

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the power couple of the

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storytelling world. They offer

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business consulting, coaching

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and training. They've worked

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with a few companies you might

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have heard of, Microsoft, ey,

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PwC, Novartis, AXA, American

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Express, I could go on. They

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work with clients, all kinds of

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clients, to discover, develop

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and deliver a strategic story

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that connects and wins. And they

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very kindly shared the tricks of

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their trade with all of us in

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the exceptional new book, The

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DNA of engagement. Here it is.

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Well, anyway, that's quite

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enough from me. Let's actually

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let them talk for a minute. So

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let's meet them. David Pullen

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and Sarah. Jane McKechnie,

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welcome to storytelling for

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business. Hello. Thank you,

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David Pullen: Katie, that's

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gonna be incredibly hard to talk

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on the wake of your amazing

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introduction. Thank you. Excuse,

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after years of working together

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and more years of marriage to

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actually have to cuddle up to

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get into

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Unknown: shots, your first ever

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cuddle on camera. I bet it

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isn't.

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Katie Flamman: Okay, let's start

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so you are the story spotters.

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What does that mean? How did

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that become a thing?

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David Pullen: Well, there are

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two things there. There's what

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it means and how it came to be.

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I mean, if I, if I say how it

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came to be, then Sergeant can

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explain exactly what story

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spotting means, because it's as

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opposed to it incorporates

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storytelling, but it has other

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elements to it as well. I mean,

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as you said earlier on, I mean

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Sarah Jane McKechnie and David

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Pullen, which are two of the

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names that are often misspelt

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and more often mispronounced. So

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for years, we were called

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McKechnie Pullen limited, which

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sounded like a sort of Midlands

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estate agent. And I was doing

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some work in during lockdown,

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actually, with a guy called Neil

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Bearden, who was the he was,

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he's a stats prof, or was a

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stats prof at INSEAD in

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Singapore. And he got in touch

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with me on LinkedIn and said,

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Listen, everything's going

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online. He taught storytelling

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at INSEAD as well. Said, Listen,

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I'm taking it all online. I've

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got sort of too much to do.

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Would you come and support me on

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this? To which I said, Yeah,

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brilliant, absolutely. And we

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got on really well. And one

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night after, because I say night

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because it was happening all

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over the world, and I'd be

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drinking espresso at three

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o'clock. In the morning. Oh,

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yeah, but fun, because really

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interesting people. And Neil

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said, I really like what you do,

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David, what actually do you do?

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And I said, Well, essentially,

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what Sarah, Jane and I do is we

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go into organisations and we

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whether it's a change programme,

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whether it's a sales programme,

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whatever we we listen to the

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fact that they're talking until

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we sort of, you know, little

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like Haley Joel Osment in who

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says, I saw, I see dead people.

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We see stories. So we listen to

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the facts, and we go, I think

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the story you're trying to tell

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is this. And people say, Oh,

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that's exactly what it is. Let's

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use that story as the as the hub

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off which the the spokes of the

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facts and the data drive.

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Katie Flamman: If you're in

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business, I'm so sorry. I'm

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interrupting you for a sec. If

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you're in business, you kind of,

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you think in sort of bullet

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points and PowerPoints maybe,

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don't you? And, and, I mean, it

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seems to me that what you've

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just described is kind of seeing

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the heart behind, behind that or

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or the emotion behind the thing.

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It's

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David Pullen: that combination

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of logic and emotion, isn't it?

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Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

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Sarah Jane McKechnie: I mean,

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our lives are a story. Yeah. You

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know, when we every day that we

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live it's a story that that's

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the thing we we live through

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stories. So it's an incredibly

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natural way to communicate, to

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understand things, to be able to

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make somebody else understand

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what you're talking about. And

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understanding is so incredibly I

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mean, obviously understanding is

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the base of collaboration. So

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it's story is it's fundamental,

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David Pullen: what it's what's

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allowed us to sort of rise up

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the food chain, essentially, and

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sort of be the ones that you

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know have, for want of a better

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word, dominated the planet,

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because we do understand and

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plan and problem solve our lives

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through this, as Sarah James

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says, this concept, what is the

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story of our lives? And we help

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and, well, this is what Neil

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said. He said, Oh, you're a

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story spot. You help people spot

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the stories. And we said, well,

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we are. Now,

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Katie Flamman: that's a catchy

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business name. Neil. How? Well,

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okay, so there's a bit, a little

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bit on your website, which is

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this very cute little video.

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It's like, it's like the kind

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of, you know, the about us

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section on your video on your

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website, and there's this sweet

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little video called 90 seconds

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with the story spotters, and

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it's each of you guys sitting on

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a sofa, and it cuts between,

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it's one question, and then each

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of you answers it, and there's

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questions like, What's your

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favourite breakfast and who was

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your first kiss? And then under

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that, there's a more kind of

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traditional CV, with the bullet

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points, explaining how you both

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used to be actors and you've

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performed on stages around the

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world and how you've been script

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writers for leaders and teams

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and trained as coaches and

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studied hypnotherapy. However, I

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have remembered all the things,

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but it's the smashed avocado and

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the behind the bike bike shed

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kiss that I remembered first,

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and that also, that also kind of

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endeared me to you, even though

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I knew already. So that's kind

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of illustrating what Sarah Jane,

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what you're saying, isn't it

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about we're always telling

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stories. They're little, tiny

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snippets on those videos, but

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each one is a story, and it

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Unknown: creates a picture, and

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it creates a you know, the

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connection is so much stronger

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as soon as you can and see and

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then you can and and sharing

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that, that kind of, even if it's

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very small, you're sharing

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experiences. You're igniting

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something in somebody else's

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mind, because they're going,

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they're going, then to the story

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that they have about any

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situation. And it's, it is our

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way. I mean, the the basis of

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the story, spotters really is,

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is we look at story in four

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ways. Which is, one is the

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stories that you tell, which,

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when you tell a story, you

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ignite things in other people's

283
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minds. That's, that's the thing,

284
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and it's a wonderful way of

285
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explaining things because,

286
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because that is how we live, we,

287
00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:01,860
as I said, are, you know, every

288
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day is a story. So the stories

289
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that we tell in order to explain

290
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the stories that we listen for,

291
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which is incredibly important

292
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because by stories out of others

293
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and and being able to understand

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people better if we if we hear

295
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the stories and are interested

296
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in other people's stories, so

297
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it's a that's the connection

298
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that is so important, the

299
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stories that we tell by our

300
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behaviours, which say it's how

301
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we show up, and all That pieces,

302
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the how we treat people, all

303
00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:43,720
those kinds of things, tells a

304
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story and and has an effect on

305
00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,060
other people around. And then

306
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there are the stories. My

307
00:09:50,020 --> 00:09:51,580
favourite, really, yeah. It's

308
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the stories that we tell

309
00:09:52,420 --> 00:09:56,500
ourselves, this concept, Oh,

310
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yeah. And we have that rambling

311
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that we have that thing. All the

312
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time, and, and when we come,

313
00:10:01,980 --> 00:10:03,900
when we you know, somebody might

314
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say something, and all of a

315
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sudden it jars. And we are

316
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remembering something. And

317
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we're, we're, we're triggered

318
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yeah by something Yeah. And it's

319
00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:15,540
understanding that and, and it

320
00:10:15,540 --> 00:10:17,220
can sort of scupper all sorts of

321
00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:19,320
conversations which, which are

322
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needed again, for this

323
00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:23,720
collaboration, so to understand

324
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that and to understand what

325
00:10:25,220 --> 00:10:29,360
triggers why, and instead of,

326
00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:31,400
instead of kind of having that

327
00:10:31,460 --> 00:10:33,680
initial reaction to it, which

328
00:10:33,680 --> 00:10:35,900
might scupper you is get curious

329
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instead. So, so

330
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David Pullen: how can you

331
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reframe your own story,

332
00:10:41,540 --> 00:10:42,400
Katie Flamman: turning your fear

333
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into excitement, turning your

334
00:10:44,860 --> 00:10:45,940
turning your trigger into

335
00:10:45,940 --> 00:10:48,400
curiosity, yeah, yeah,

336
00:10:48,700 --> 00:10:49,360
David Pullen: it's there's

337
00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,340
something that you said there

338
00:10:51,340 --> 00:10:53,080
Katie about just remembering the

339
00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:54,760
stories we told about kisses

340
00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:56,200
behind bike sheds and stuff like

341
00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:57,580
that. And and this picks up on

342
00:10:57,580 --> 00:10:58,720
what Sarah Jane was saying as

343
00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:00,480
well. I think that the power of

344
00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:02,520
the story is, is, is, is that

345
00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:04,260
combination of, it's essentially

346
00:11:04,260 --> 00:11:06,960
a fact in context which which

347
00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:09,600
brings the fact to life. And,

348
00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:10,620
you know, there's so much

349
00:11:10,620 --> 00:11:12,300
written on everywhere about

350
00:11:12,300 --> 00:11:13,920
leadership and vulnerability,

351
00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:15,060
but what does that actually

352
00:11:15,060 --> 00:11:16,500
mean? And I think, I think the

353
00:11:16,500 --> 00:11:18,240
act of storytelling is an act of

354
00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:19,680
vulnerability in itself. Yes,

355
00:11:19,740 --> 00:11:21,740
you're letting people into your

356
00:11:21,740 --> 00:11:23,960
heart as well as your head, and

357
00:11:24,020 --> 00:11:25,280
you're risking that somebody

358
00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:26,420
might say, well, I don't agree

359
00:11:26,420 --> 00:11:27,500
with you, which is great,

360
00:11:27,500 --> 00:11:28,340
because then you're in a

361
00:11:28,340 --> 00:11:30,140
discussion and it's, um, well,

362
00:11:30,140 --> 00:11:30,500
Katie Flamman: then you've

363
00:11:30,500 --> 00:11:31,760
already made a connection.

364
00:11:32,060 --> 00:11:33,200
Whether they agree with you or

365
00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:34,820
not, they've engaged with what

366
00:11:34,820 --> 00:11:36,260
you're saying. Couldn't agree

367
00:11:36,260 --> 00:11:36,740
David Pullen: more. Yeah,

368
00:11:36,740 --> 00:11:40,100
exactly, yeah. So, oh,

369
00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:41,080
Katie Flamman: I love it. We're

370
00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:42,340
getting down to the get down to

371
00:11:42,340 --> 00:11:43,420
the nitty gritty already. I've

372
00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:44,920
got feeling a bit goose bumpy.

373
00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,640
Okay, so we've, we've sort of

374
00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,480
skirted around it, but story has

375
00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:54,760
value, and all of those

376
00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,520
different four types of story so

377
00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:58,660
that, I mean, there's a whole,

378
00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:00,660
there's a whole podcast episode

379
00:12:00,660 --> 00:12:05,400
slash book on that stuff. But so

380
00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:07,080
let's kind of, let's talk about

381
00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:08,640
your book, right? The book is

382
00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,820
called the DNA of engagement. So

383
00:12:11,940 --> 00:12:13,440
come on, tell me, tell us. Tell

384
00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:15,600
us all about the book. I've

385
00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:17,280
waved it around that I'll just

386
00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:19,800
say, first, it's super fun. It's

387
00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:21,560
got pictures and diagrams and

388
00:12:21,680 --> 00:12:23,120
The Sarah Jane Adventures, and

389
00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:24,380
it's divided into Acts and

390
00:12:24,380 --> 00:12:25,580
scenes, and it's really

391
00:12:25,580 --> 00:12:27,200
accessible and fun, but it's a

392
00:12:27,740 --> 00:12:30,200
kick ass blueprint, seriously,

393
00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,780
or an action plan for, well, for

394
00:12:32,780 --> 00:12:34,520
some really, really heavy stuff.

395
00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:38,300
So So tell us about the book.

396
00:12:38,660 --> 00:12:39,980
What's the point of your book,

397
00:12:39,980 --> 00:12:41,080
please? Well,

398
00:12:41,500 --> 00:12:42,340
David Pullen: I have to say we

399
00:12:42,340 --> 00:12:43,540
were the people who never wanted

400
00:12:43,540 --> 00:12:44,380
to write a book, because

401
00:12:44,380 --> 00:12:45,460
basically, who needs another

402
00:12:45,460 --> 00:12:46,540
business book? I mean, they're

403
00:12:46,540 --> 00:12:47,980
usually like a blog that got out

404
00:12:47,980 --> 00:12:50,140
of hand, and so it's, you know,

405
00:12:50,140 --> 00:12:52,480
we three things happened. I

406
00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,040
mean, one, there was, well, one,

407
00:12:55,540 --> 00:12:56,980
there was somebody who sort of

408
00:12:56,980 --> 00:12:58,180
saw the stuff we do on LinkedIn

409
00:12:58,180 --> 00:12:59,260
and said, You guys have got a

410
00:12:59,260 --> 00:13:00,300
tone of voice. You should really

411
00:13:00,300 --> 00:13:02,640
think about writing someone then

412
00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:03,900
we were doing this particular

413
00:13:03,900 --> 00:13:06,240
piece of work with Aviva, which

414
00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,040
under the leadership of Amanda

415
00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:09,420
block, named Amanda Blanc, when

416
00:13:09,420 --> 00:13:10,860
she was changing the strategy of

417
00:13:10,860 --> 00:13:12,060
the company, when she

418
00:13:12,060 --> 00:13:13,920
essentially said to her 200 top

419
00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:15,180
leaders, this is the strategy.

420
00:13:15,180 --> 00:13:16,380
We're slimming the company down

421
00:13:16,380 --> 00:13:18,240
in this way. This is the forward

422
00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:19,980
thinking. I can't do it myself.

423
00:13:19,980 --> 00:13:21,500
You have to make this happen.

424
00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:23,660
And there was a big piece of

425
00:13:23,660 --> 00:13:25,160
work that was was led by

426
00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:27,380
Accenture about the strategy and

427
00:13:27,380 --> 00:13:28,640
what the leaders actually did

428
00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:30,440
mentally around that, when they

429
00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:31,820
suddenly realised, okay, that's

430
00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:33,020
one thing, but they then have to

431
00:13:33,020 --> 00:13:33,680
go out and have the

432
00:13:33,680 --> 00:13:35,000
conversations, which get the

433
00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:37,340
which get the 22,000 people at

434
00:13:37,340 --> 00:13:38,900
the time in the organisation to

435
00:13:38,900 --> 00:13:40,660
lean in. Oh yeah, I want to be

436
00:13:40,660 --> 00:13:42,820
part of that. So they brought us

437
00:13:42,820 --> 00:13:44,620
on board to create that part of

438
00:13:44,620 --> 00:13:46,300
the programme about, how do you

439
00:13:46,300 --> 00:13:49,060
get people, essentially, to be

440
00:13:49,180 --> 00:13:51,100
excited by the possibility, and

441
00:13:51,100 --> 00:13:53,020
then also, co create the future.

442
00:13:53,020 --> 00:13:55,240
CO create the story, which is

443
00:13:55,300 --> 00:13:57,640
really important. Actually, you

444
00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:59,320
can tell people's stories, but

445
00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:03,660
if they, if they, if they add to

446
00:14:03,660 --> 00:14:05,700
it themselves, and, yes, you

447
00:14:05,700 --> 00:14:06,840
know, colour the stories

448
00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:08,100
themselves, then they, they are

449
00:14:08,100 --> 00:14:09,480
more likely to buy into the

450
00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:11,280
story and make the story happen.

451
00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,220
So the book really is the it's

452
00:14:14,220 --> 00:14:16,740
the journey of how we actually

453
00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,020
did that piece of work, plus

454
00:14:19,020 --> 00:14:20,420
tonnes of other stuff that

455
00:14:20,420 --> 00:14:21,560
we've, we've done right

456
00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:22,700
throughout our careers with

457
00:14:22,700 --> 00:14:25,220
leaders, and that's what it is.

458
00:14:25,220 --> 00:14:27,080
And it's, yeah, it's, it's

459
00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,900
designed, really, as a guide to

460
00:14:29,900 --> 00:14:31,280
help people on the journey,

461
00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:33,080
people who have to have the

462
00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,300
conversations that build trust,

463
00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:36,800
which is the primary thing

464
00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:38,840
driving, which will drive

465
00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:39,980
engagement, and therefore

466
00:14:39,980 --> 00:14:41,500
influence change, whether it's,

467
00:14:42,220 --> 00:14:43,480
you know, changing the direction

468
00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:45,220
of a company or, you know,

469
00:14:45,340 --> 00:14:47,500
changing your partner's mind

470
00:14:47,500 --> 00:14:48,820
about a restaurant that they

471
00:14:48,820 --> 00:14:51,100
don't want to go to. Yes,

472
00:14:51,100 --> 00:14:52,180
that's, that's always more,

473
00:14:52,180 --> 00:14:53,500
that's always a difficult one.

474
00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:54,100
Katie Flamman: Yeah. I mean, we

475
00:14:54,100 --> 00:14:55,420
all know, we all know where the

476
00:14:55,420 --> 00:14:56,920
serious challenges are, right?

477
00:14:57,580 --> 00:14:58,480
Unknown: Technically, of course,

478
00:14:58,480 --> 00:14:58,720
Katie.

479
00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:01,380
Katie Flamman: So, okay,

480
00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:03,960
building trust everybody. That's

481
00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:05,100
what everybody wants, right?

482
00:15:05,100 --> 00:15:06,540
Know, like and trust all of that

483
00:15:06,540 --> 00:15:11,160
stuff. Yeah, so I think, I think

484
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:12,660
we've touched on it with talking

485
00:15:12,660 --> 00:15:13,920
about your little video and

486
00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:16,680
talking about vulnerability. But

487
00:15:17,940 --> 00:15:20,780
how, how? How do we get them to

488
00:15:20,780 --> 00:15:22,100
trust us.

489
00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:24,200
David Pullen: Well, do you want

490
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:24,980
to talk about the whole

491
00:15:24,980 --> 00:15:26,300
understanding thing? Because

492
00:15:26,300 --> 00:15:27,800
there's a, you know, we say it's

493
00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:29,540
basically the DNA. We should say

494
00:15:29,540 --> 00:15:30,380
doesn't stand for

495
00:15:30,380 --> 00:15:32,360
deoxyribonucleic acid. It stands

496
00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,280
for green. No, it doesn't No,

497
00:15:34,340 --> 00:15:35,180
although we think it's as

498
00:15:35,180 --> 00:15:36,500
equally valid and worthy of a

499
00:15:36,500 --> 00:15:37,340
Nobel Prize. Plus,

500
00:15:37,340 --> 00:15:38,000
Katie Flamman: I love it that

501
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:39,260
you just said that as well.

502
00:15:40,940 --> 00:15:43,180
David Pullen: Yes, exactly. That

503
00:15:43,180 --> 00:15:44,560
would have been. Had to edit

504
00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:48,400
that one. It's a it stands for

505
00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:50,080
Dream, Nightmare action, which

506
00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:51,460
is a pattern that we all this is

507
00:15:51,460 --> 00:15:52,660
the thing that Sarah Jane was

508
00:15:52,660 --> 00:15:54,520
saying about, about the the

509
00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:56,920
pattern we live in life. We have

510
00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:58,120
a dream. We have something that

511
00:15:58,120 --> 00:15:59,380
we want to achieve. We want to

512
00:15:59,620 --> 00:16:01,080
get on the call this morning

513
00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:02,640
with Katie, and it's going to be

514
00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:03,720
fantastic. And then the

515
00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:05,220
nightmare is, you know, you've

516
00:16:05,220 --> 00:16:06,900
got to update your system or

517
00:16:06,900 --> 00:16:08,040
something like that. That gets

518
00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:09,180
in the way, and you've got five

519
00:16:09,180 --> 00:16:10,440
minutes to do. So the action is

520
00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:11,880
you start racing around trying

521
00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:13,020
to get it all done. And this

522
00:16:13,020 --> 00:16:14,760
pattern of dream, Nightmare,

523
00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:16,920
action is how we we understand,

524
00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:18,840
plan and problem solve our lives

525
00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,040
and what we every day, every

526
00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:23,360
day, every moment of the day,

527
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:24,740
from getting the kids up to

528
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:26,060
trying to solve the climate

529
00:16:26,060 --> 00:16:27,620
crisis, is, what do we do?

530
00:16:27,620 --> 00:16:28,700
What's the dream? What's going

531
00:16:28,700 --> 00:16:29,540
to get in the wave at the

532
00:16:29,540 --> 00:16:30,620
nightmare? What actions do we

533
00:16:30,620 --> 00:16:34,280
take? And we just we discovered

534
00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,400
that the best way this dream to

535
00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:39,260
build the trust and drive the

536
00:16:39,260 --> 00:16:41,380
engagement and influence the

537
00:16:41,380 --> 00:16:43,840
change is start by understanding

538
00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:45,760
the other person and connecting

539
00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:47,320
to their dream before you start

540
00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:48,820
forcing the problems and the

541
00:16:48,820 --> 00:16:50,260
actions. If you want to talk

542
00:16:50,260 --> 00:16:51,400
about that understanding,

543
00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:52,360
Unknown: I mean, it's, it is.

544
00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,480
It's, it's, it's if, I mean,

545
00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:56,980
it's like a toddler, isn't it?

546
00:16:56,980 --> 00:16:59,200
If you say to a toddler, you

547
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:00,840
know, and you're furious, and

548
00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:02,160
you just want them to do

549
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:03,600
something, put your wellies on,

550
00:17:03,660 --> 00:17:05,280
and they're determined not to do

551
00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:06,540
that because they don't want to

552
00:17:06,540 --> 00:17:07,800
put their wellies on. You have

553
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,020
to find a different way doing

554
00:17:10,020 --> 00:17:11,280
it. So you have to connect to

555
00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,440
the dream. And you know that

556
00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:15,300
lovely pond and puddle that you

557
00:17:15,300 --> 00:17:17,040
like playing with in the park,

558
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,800
right? Well, we can go there

559
00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:21,200
today. I think it was very nice

560
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:23,240
to go down, but you won't be

561
00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,420
able to go in the water unless

562
00:17:26,420 --> 00:17:27,560
you put your wellies on. So

563
00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:29,000
would it be a good idea to put

564
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:30,380
them on now and then we can have

565
00:17:30,380 --> 00:17:32,480
a really good splash. The thing

566
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,300
is that we often what we do is

567
00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:42,560
want to put them on what they're

568
00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:44,500
not on and because you, because

569
00:17:44,500 --> 00:17:46,060
it's your plan, that you think,

570
00:17:46,060 --> 00:17:47,320
no, I've got to go to the park

571
00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:48,400
now because, and then I've got

572
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:50,200
to, you know, time

573
00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:51,220
to discuss it and

574
00:17:53,020 --> 00:17:53,680
David Pullen: actually do

575
00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:55,120
discussing it saves time in the

576
00:17:55,120 --> 00:17:55,960
end. Yes,

577
00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:57,220
Unknown: and it's, it's that

578
00:17:57,220 --> 00:17:59,080
whole thing of, I mean, on the

579
00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:00,960
basic level of this is if you

580
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,080
connect to people's dreams, if

581
00:18:04,380 --> 00:18:06,120
you, if you connect to people in

582
00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:07,140
the way that they need to be

583
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:09,600
connected. I mean, it's your

584
00:18:09,660 --> 00:18:11,340
thing about connection before

585
00:18:11,340 --> 00:18:13,380
correction. It's, it's the the

586
00:18:13,380 --> 00:18:17,160
if you can connect and show that

587
00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,960
you understand and and you, you,

588
00:18:21,020 --> 00:18:22,520
you are. You've heard, you've

589
00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:23,960
listened. I mean, all these

590
00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:28,280
things that allow space and

591
00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:32,420
connection and and then only

592
00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:34,760
then, when people are doing what

593
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:35,720
you're doing now, which is

594
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:37,880
nodding, you know, it's that,

595
00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:40,780
yeah, yes, okay, this person

596
00:18:40,780 --> 00:18:42,460
understands me. It's so it's

597
00:18:42,460 --> 00:18:46,660
such a basic human need that

598
00:18:46,660 --> 00:18:49,480
then only then can you really

599
00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,800
have the right to say, but, but

600
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,800
this is, this is, you know, yes,

601
00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:58,180
exactly. This might not happen

602
00:18:58,180 --> 00:19:00,900
because, and give a reason. So

603
00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,360
it's, I think one of the things

604
00:19:03,360 --> 00:19:05,520
that's so important is to always

605
00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:06,960
remember that you have to care

606
00:19:07,020 --> 00:19:08,760
for your and I'm going to use

607
00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:10,080
the word audience, and what I'm

608
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:11,820
audience is anybody that,

609
00:19:11,820 --> 00:19:13,620
whether it's a toddler, whether

610
00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:15,300
it's, you know, 1000 people in a

611
00:19:15,300 --> 00:19:17,100
hall, whether it's your direct

612
00:19:17,100 --> 00:19:19,740
reports, or whoever it is, yes,

613
00:19:19,740 --> 00:19:22,760
is, is you absolutely have to

614
00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:23,960
care about how they're going to

615
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:25,940
get this message, what what

616
00:19:25,940 --> 00:19:29,120
their agenda is and or what you

617
00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:30,440
can agree with with that's

618
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:32,300
David Pullen: interesting. You

619
00:19:32,300 --> 00:19:33,680
said those two words connection

620
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:34,760
and understanding and

621
00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:35,960
reconnecting. And it's, it's

622
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:37,100
interesting. I mean, one of the

623
00:19:37,100 --> 00:19:38,780
things that we often think about

624
00:19:38,780 --> 00:19:41,140
is that, is that this trust is

625
00:19:41,140 --> 00:19:42,580
built on understanding, and the

626
00:19:42,580 --> 00:19:44,800
understanding is is twofold. I

627
00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,440
mean, we tend to trust those who

628
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:49,000
we feel have understood us, who

629
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,460
have connected with Yes, but we

630
00:19:51,460 --> 00:19:53,920
also trust things that we find

631
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:55,780
it easy to understand, which is

632
00:19:55,780 --> 00:19:57,280
where storytelling comes in,

633
00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:59,500
because storytelling just puts

634
00:19:59,500 --> 00:20:00,960
everyone. The same page they

635
00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,360
have, they have a vivid picture

636
00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:04,920
of what things are going to look

637
00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,140
like. So being understood and

638
00:20:07,140 --> 00:20:09,120
making people understand are the

639
00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:11,040
basis of building trust. Really.

640
00:20:11,460 --> 00:20:14,100
Unknown: I is an example that I

641
00:20:14,100 --> 00:20:17,520
often use in workshops, and it's

642
00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:18,780
if you imagine that you're

643
00:20:18,780 --> 00:20:21,860
together for a family reunion or

644
00:20:21,860 --> 00:20:22,940
something, or some sort of, I

645
00:20:22,940 --> 00:20:24,560
don't know, some, some festival

646
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,500
that you're, that you have, and

647
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:29,420
the family is there, and there's

648
00:20:29,420 --> 00:20:30,560
Uncle Fred, who you never

649
00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,860
normally see, and he is, he

650
00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:35,540
won't talk about anything other

651
00:20:35,540 --> 00:20:37,460
than fishing, so you know,

652
00:20:37,460 --> 00:20:39,080
that's his hobby. And so,

653
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:40,600
because we are also getting his

654
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,600
wellies on, but because we are

655
00:20:43,780 --> 00:20:45,340
in that, in those kinds of

656
00:20:45,340 --> 00:20:47,020
family, you know, often where we

657
00:20:47,020 --> 00:20:49,000
feel benign, and it's a it's a

658
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:50,980
celebration and everything we

659
00:20:50,980 --> 00:20:52,300
have, the patience and the

660
00:20:52,300 --> 00:20:53,740
understanding. Go up to Uncle

661
00:20:53,740 --> 00:20:55,900
Fred and say, Oh, have you been

662
00:20:55,900 --> 00:20:57,460
fishing lately? And we will

663
00:20:57,460 --> 00:20:59,920
listen and ask questions,

664
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,280
because we care, yeah, and I

665
00:21:02,340 --> 00:21:03,840
think, I think, you know this,

666
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,420
this kind of the fact that we

667
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,600
do, we do it automatically in

668
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:11,640
certain situation, but when the

669
00:21:11,700 --> 00:21:13,560
pressures on, and when we have,

670
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:14,820
when we have a whole load of

671
00:21:14,820 --> 00:21:16,020
things, because, because we're

672
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,120
kind of one track in terms of

673
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:19,500
this is what I need to do. This

674
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:23,540
is a we, we stop. We kind of

675
00:21:23,540 --> 00:21:25,820
want to bypass that, because all

676
00:21:26,300 --> 00:21:28,340
the humanity that we actually

677
00:21:28,340 --> 00:21:31,880
have often, can it can recede?

678
00:21:31,940 --> 00:21:33,020
David Pullen: Can't it? No, it's

679
00:21:33,020 --> 00:21:34,460
really interesting. Yeah,

680
00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:35,540
Katie Flamman: it's a beautiful

681
00:21:35,540 --> 00:21:38,180
example, isn't it? Because we

682
00:21:38,180 --> 00:21:38,660
David Pullen: might write the

683
00:21:38,660 --> 00:21:39,860
book. Next book might be called

684
00:21:39,860 --> 00:21:40,900
the Fred effect, but

685
00:21:42,460 --> 00:21:44,560
Katie Flamman: I think, in a

686
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,260
corporate setting, so you're not

687
00:21:47,260 --> 00:21:48,640
really interested in fishing,

688
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:50,320
right? But, but you care about

689
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,300
Uncle Fred, and you care that he

690
00:21:52,300 --> 00:21:54,760
is interested in fishing, so you

691
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:56,800
want to tease out that that

692
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:58,240
conversation and make him feel

693
00:21:58,240 --> 00:21:59,920
welcome and make him feel seen.

694
00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:01,080
And you know, did you want

695
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,300
another piece of cake, all of

696
00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:05,520
all of that stuff? And in a

697
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,280
corporate setting, you're maybe

698
00:22:08,460 --> 00:22:10,860
not. You don't really

699
00:22:10,860 --> 00:22:12,660
necessarily care about your

700
00:22:12,660 --> 00:22:14,340
client's thing, but you have to

701
00:22:14,340 --> 00:22:16,680
care. You have to properly care

702
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:18,540
and invest in the thing and

703
00:22:18,540 --> 00:22:20,220
learn about the thing because

704
00:22:20,220 --> 00:22:21,380
they care. And actually, by the

705
00:22:21,380 --> 00:22:22,760
end of it, you probably do care.

706
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:23,240
I think it's

707
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:24,020
Unknown: a case of, also we

708
00:22:24,020 --> 00:22:26,780
have, we have huge agendas that

709
00:22:26,780 --> 00:22:28,820
we have, you know, things that

710
00:22:28,820 --> 00:22:30,980
we need to, that we have to

711
00:22:30,980 --> 00:22:32,540
achieve, and all that kind of

712
00:22:32,540 --> 00:22:33,500
thing, which isn't, there's

713
00:22:33,500 --> 00:22:35,420
nothing wrong with that, but

714
00:22:35,420 --> 00:22:36,920
it's, it's fraught. You know,

715
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:38,960
there's, there's a lot going on.

716
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:43,240
And so it is it is it is more

717
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,900
likely that we don't stop

718
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,180
breathe and think about

719
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:50,380
actually, this is a

720
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:51,880
Katie Flamman: conversation. I

721
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:53,140
think that's really important,

722
00:22:53,140 --> 00:22:55,420
because we are all so time poor,

723
00:22:55,540 --> 00:22:57,820
yes, in our personal lives and

724
00:22:57,880 --> 00:22:59,560
and in our working lives,

725
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:01,620
everybody wants to just cut to

726
00:23:01,620 --> 00:23:03,240
the chase and get on with it. So

727
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,180
so let's talk about a few kind

728
00:23:06,180 --> 00:23:09,780
of like actual, useful, hard

729
00:23:09,780 --> 00:23:11,940
fact tip, things that people can

730
00:23:11,940 --> 00:23:14,340
do to help them. And I

731
00:23:14,340 --> 00:23:15,420
appreciate that you've just

732
00:23:15,420 --> 00:23:16,980
described you have to take the

733
00:23:16,980 --> 00:23:19,020
time. You can't rush this stuff.

734
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,500
But if you've only got limited

735
00:23:21,500 --> 00:23:23,660
amount of time, how do you

736
00:23:23,780 --> 00:23:26,180
maximise the productivity of

737
00:23:26,180 --> 00:23:27,500
that time that you've got?

738
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:29,180
David Pullen: Can I tell you one

739
00:23:29,180 --> 00:23:31,340
Yeah. I mean, you're right. You

740
00:23:31,340 --> 00:23:32,540
do have to take the time, but it

741
00:23:32,540 --> 00:23:34,100
doesn't take a huge amount of

742
00:23:34,100 --> 00:23:35,180
time because, I mean, one of the

743
00:23:35,180 --> 00:23:36,440
things we talk about in the book

744
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,420
Katie is a thing called triune

745
00:23:38,420 --> 00:23:39,920
brain theory, which was

746
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:42,340
developed in Yale in the 60s,

747
00:23:42,340 --> 00:23:43,600
and it's been sort of slightly

748
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:45,160
outmoded now with sort of like

749
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,440
neuro imagery and advances in

750
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:49,480
neuroscience and but there's a

751
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:51,280
basic premise behind it, which

752
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:52,900
is still true for communication,

753
00:23:52,900 --> 00:23:55,120
is that our brain works in three

754
00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:56,620
ways. There's the there's the

755
00:23:56,620 --> 00:23:58,180
reptilian, the oldest part of

756
00:23:58,180 --> 00:23:59,380
our brain, which is basically

757
00:23:59,380 --> 00:24:00,660
pattern matching, and sort of

758
00:24:00,660 --> 00:24:01,980
going, do I like this person? Do

759
00:24:01,980 --> 00:24:03,420
I trust them? Can do I actually

760
00:24:03,420 --> 00:24:05,040
want to be around them? That's

761
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:06,180
the first gatekeeper of the

762
00:24:06,180 --> 00:24:07,560
brain that sort of gets you so

763
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:08,880
it's how you show up in the

764
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:10,680
room. Is, is, is huge about

765
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:11,760
that. I mean, do you look like

766
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:13,140
somebody they want to spend time

767
00:24:13,740 --> 00:24:14,820
with? The second part of the

768
00:24:14,820 --> 00:24:16,500
brain is the is the limbic

769
00:24:16,500 --> 00:24:18,000
system, the emotional part, if

770
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:19,320
you like, which is, which is the

771
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,380
one that wants to feel, have I

772
00:24:21,380 --> 00:24:23,900
been understood? Only then do we

773
00:24:23,900 --> 00:24:25,040
get to the newest part of our

774
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:26,540
brain, which is the, which is

775
00:24:26,540 --> 00:24:28,340
the neocortex, which is the, you

776
00:24:28,340 --> 00:24:29,840
know, rational problem solving

777
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,420
stuff. And I think the time poor

778
00:24:32,420 --> 00:24:34,940
thing is, means that in

779
00:24:34,940 --> 00:24:36,260
business, what we often do is we

780
00:24:36,260 --> 00:24:37,520
rush to that without getting

781
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,560
past the two gatekeepers first.

782
00:24:40,460 --> 00:24:43,240
And I think the simple tip is,

783
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,820
is really just to Sarah Jane's

784
00:24:45,820 --> 00:24:47,080
point. Breathe before you go

785
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:48,700
into any situation, before you

786
00:24:48,700 --> 00:24:49,960
switch the teams. Call on,

787
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:51,040
before you walk through a room,

788
00:24:51,220 --> 00:24:52,900
just think to yourself, how am I

789
00:24:52,900 --> 00:24:54,280
going to show up in this room?

790
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:55,780
Who am I bringing into this

791
00:24:55,780 --> 00:24:57,340
space? Just show up as your best

792
00:24:57,340 --> 00:24:59,500
self. Connect. Don't put on it's

793
00:24:59,500 --> 00:25:00,720
not about. Putting on an act,

794
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,060
but it's about genuinely showing

795
00:25:03,060 --> 00:25:05,520
up with presence and warmth. And

796
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:06,600
the warmth is the the presence

797
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:07,920
is looking and sounding like you

798
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:09,300
don't want to be anywhere else

799
00:25:09,300 --> 00:25:10,740
except right here, right now, in

800
00:25:10,740 --> 00:25:12,300
this moment, fully focused,

801
00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:14,460
focused, absolutely focused. And

802
00:25:14,460 --> 00:25:16,080
then the warmth is about showing

803
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:17,760
that you've considered the other

804
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:19,500
person, that what you are doing

805
00:25:19,500 --> 00:25:21,860
is is is not orientated towards

806
00:25:21,860 --> 00:25:23,540
yourself, but it is orientated

807
00:25:23,540 --> 00:25:25,820
towards the greater good, or the

808
00:25:25,820 --> 00:25:27,140
other person, or whatever it is.

809
00:25:27,140 --> 00:25:30,980
So quite simply, show up well,

810
00:25:31,940 --> 00:25:33,260
and then make the first thing

811
00:25:33,260 --> 00:25:34,580
that comes out of your mouth,

812
00:25:34,580 --> 00:25:36,920
something that shows the other

813
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,860
person that you have considered

814
00:25:39,860 --> 00:25:41,380
them. That's the that's the

815
00:25:41,380 --> 00:25:42,100
easiest way to

816
00:25:42,100 --> 00:25:43,720
Unknown: do that. I think this

817
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:45,340
thing of breathing is so

818
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,320
important, and I've talked about

819
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,660
this quite often, is, is this

820
00:25:49,900 --> 00:25:51,820
the whole thing of we rush from

821
00:25:51,820 --> 00:25:53,380
one meeting to another meeting,

822
00:25:54,220 --> 00:25:56,500
and often there's, there's, you

823
00:25:56,500 --> 00:26:00,780
know, files, lifts, whatever you

824
00:26:00,780 --> 00:26:02,100
know, getting in the end, yeah,

825
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,260
yeah. And we don't really, I

826
00:26:04,260 --> 00:26:06,120
think that there is a sort of

827
00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:07,140
mental thing that goes on

828
00:26:07,140 --> 00:26:08,340
because we know we've got to but

829
00:26:08,340 --> 00:26:10,680
we don't allow our bodies to

830
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,560
rest. And the thing is that it's

831
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:14,820
not just our brains that are

832
00:26:14,820 --> 00:26:16,140
going into the meeting. It's our

833
00:26:16,140 --> 00:26:19,620
entire being that's going and so

834
00:26:19,620 --> 00:26:21,860
I think there's a something that

835
00:26:21,860 --> 00:26:24,020
I learned some time ago from a

836
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:27,440
she, and she was a very, very

837
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:32,300
wise meditation teacher, and she

838
00:26:32,300 --> 00:26:34,640
called it the change breath. So

839
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:35,900
when you, if you think about,

840
00:26:35,900 --> 00:26:37,940
you're in a meeting, and you're,

841
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,860
you're, you know, you've had all

842
00:26:39,860 --> 00:26:41,020
sorts of stimuli and all that

843
00:26:41,020 --> 00:26:42,040
kind of things. Loads of

844
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:43,720
remember those. Remember taken

845
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:44,920
notes and everything. And yet,

846
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:46,480
then you go out, clutching your

847
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:47,620
files, whatever, and going

848
00:26:47,620 --> 00:26:49,840
straight to another meeting. And

849
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,900
that transition, it's so easy if

850
00:26:52,900 --> 00:26:54,760
you just sort of, if you, if you

851
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:56,260
kind of, like, launch into the

852
00:26:56,260 --> 00:26:57,400
other meeting, you're still full

853
00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,920
of what you've just been trying

854
00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:03,480
to grapple with. And so there's

855
00:27:03,540 --> 00:27:05,100
this whole of actually, just

856
00:27:05,100 --> 00:27:07,800
physically, physically trying to

857
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:09,000
kind of calm yourself

858
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:10,860
afterwards. So go somewhere,

859
00:27:10,860 --> 00:27:12,540
even if it's in the lift, just

860
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,460
really breathe in through your

861
00:27:14,460 --> 00:27:16,080
nose and really feel your

862
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,480
diaphragm expanding. And just so

863
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,900
big breath in, and then a slow

864
00:27:20,900 --> 00:27:22,520
breath out through the mouth,

865
00:27:22,580 --> 00:27:23,900
and you can do that a couple of

866
00:27:23,900 --> 00:27:26,540
times. And what it does, it just

867
00:27:26,540 --> 00:27:29,000
frees up the body. Because we

868
00:27:29,060 --> 00:27:31,340
often feel we forget, sometimes

869
00:27:31,340 --> 00:27:33,080
I think that we have a body

870
00:27:33,380 --> 00:27:34,640
that's giving off all sorts of

871
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,500
signals that is taking our head

872
00:27:36,500 --> 00:27:38,660
from meeting to meeting, and so

873
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,900
that to actually do that, and it

874
00:27:40,900 --> 00:27:43,480
can really start to calm, just

875
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:44,980
clear the brain a little bit

876
00:27:44,980 --> 00:27:47,440
punctuation. It is, it is, and,

877
00:27:48,700 --> 00:27:52,480
and that, I think, is, is such

878
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:54,820
an important thing, impressively

879
00:27:54,820 --> 00:27:55,360
important.

880
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:56,440
Katie Flamman: I'm doing lots of

881
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:57,880
work on this, actually, trying

882
00:27:57,880 --> 00:27:59,140
to get out of my head and back

883
00:27:59,140 --> 00:28:01,380
into my body and just and also.

884
00:28:01,380 --> 00:28:02,700
So, I mean, if people are

885
00:28:02,700 --> 00:28:04,200
working from home, there's the

886
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:05,940
opportunity to go for a walk,

887
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,160
like 20 minutes of just physical

888
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:09,660
get it out through whatever's

889
00:28:09,660 --> 00:28:11,880
just happened, walk it out. Get

890
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,160
it out through your body. And

891
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,260
that's that's not a direction I

892
00:28:16,260 --> 00:28:17,820
expected this conversation to go

893
00:28:17,820 --> 00:28:19,800
in, but it's so important and

894
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,520
and you always have your breath

895
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:24,980
as a support. It's always there.

896
00:28:24,980 --> 00:28:27,560
It's got you. So whatever else

897
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:28,340
is going on,

898
00:28:29,780 --> 00:28:32,240
Unknown: this is the kind of the

899
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,360
the part of the stories is the

900
00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:36,500
stories that you tell by your

901
00:28:36,500 --> 00:28:39,020
behaviour is what? Because if

902
00:28:39,020 --> 00:28:40,520
you go in and you're tense,

903
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,300
that's going to show and but

904
00:28:43,300 --> 00:28:44,500
it's it, but it's also the

905
00:28:44,500 --> 00:28:45,760
stories you're telling yourself,

906
00:28:46,780 --> 00:28:47,200
Katie Flamman: imposter

907
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:48,160
syndrome, all

908
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:49,600
Unknown: of that stuff kind of

909
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,380
connect really clearly that,

910
00:28:53,380 --> 00:28:54,820
right? Okay, I can deal with

911
00:28:54,820 --> 00:28:56,980
this. Let's breathe it out and

912
00:28:56,980 --> 00:29:00,160
let's focus now on this. Often,

913
00:29:00,220 --> 00:29:01,680
I think we don't give ourselves

914
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,140
enough chance to do that, to

915
00:29:04,140 --> 00:29:05,880
allow the brain the body to kind

916
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:06,600
of connect,

917
00:29:06,660 --> 00:29:07,320
Katie Flamman: and it's only a

918
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:08,820
second, isn't it? It's like it's

919
00:29:08,820 --> 00:29:10,500
one minute, one minute, maybe

920
00:29:10,500 --> 00:29:12,720
maximum. Yeah, exactly. I just

921
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:13,980
wanted to pick up on something

922
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,140
that, David, you said a minute

923
00:29:16,140 --> 00:29:19,860
ago about warmth and considering

924
00:29:19,860 --> 00:29:21,500
the other person, because it's

925
00:29:21,500 --> 00:29:23,360
really, it's fascinating as as a

926
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,160
voice actor, quite often the

927
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,740
direction I get will be warm,

928
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,160
yeah, and, and actually, they

929
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,740
don't want me to sound warm.

930
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:35,480
They want the person I'm talking

931
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,380
to to feel warm. Yes, yeah, and,

932
00:29:39,740 --> 00:29:41,560
and that's the and that's

933
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,120
exactly what you were talking

934
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,160
about. Like you show up and you

935
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,320
want them to feel like you've

936
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:48,700
considered them. You want them

937
00:29:48,700 --> 00:29:51,640
to feel that that being seen.

938
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,120
Yeah, no, that's good. That's

939
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:56,620
just joined a few dots. For me,

940
00:29:57,700 --> 00:29:58,480
David Pullen: it's interesting.

941
00:29:58,480 --> 00:29:59,920
I mean, it's, I mean, we often.

942
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:01,500
We often boil this down. We were

943
00:30:01,500 --> 00:30:02,880
talking to a client about this

944
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:04,380
yesterday. In fact, we often,

945
00:30:04,380 --> 00:30:05,760
when we're working with people,

946
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:07,200
and especially on a particular

947
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:08,940
project, we we have these three

948
00:30:08,940 --> 00:30:10,500
areas of presence, warmth and

949
00:30:10,500 --> 00:30:14,400
power that we we, we always sort

950
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,140
of judge, or sort of yes, we

951
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:17,940
have a tick box, and it starts

952
00:30:17,940 --> 00:30:18,780
with, as I said earlier, the

953
00:30:18,780 --> 00:30:20,100
presence of, does this person

954
00:30:20,100 --> 00:30:21,420
look and sounds as if they don't

955
00:30:21,420 --> 00:30:22,800
want to be anywhere else except,

956
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:23,780
right? Else except right here,

957
00:30:23,780 --> 00:30:25,280
right now and then. It's the

958
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,200
warmth. Do they look and sounds

959
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,240
as if they if they have taken

960
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:30,020
the other person into

961
00:30:30,020 --> 00:30:31,820
consideration, and then, and

962
00:30:31,820 --> 00:30:33,500
only then comes the power, which

963
00:30:33,500 --> 00:30:36,260
is, do I believe their values?

964
00:30:36,260 --> 00:30:37,820
Do I believe their their system

965
00:30:37,820 --> 00:30:39,140
of belief? Do I believe what

966
00:30:39,140 --> 00:30:40,660
they're saying to me? And I

967
00:30:40,660 --> 00:30:43,720
think too often, going back to

968
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:44,680
what we said earlier about

969
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:46,120
people being time poor and sort

970
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:47,980
of having KPIs and things like

971
00:30:47,980 --> 00:30:49,720
that to hit in business, we we

972
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,220
sort of go, I've just got to get

973
00:30:51,220 --> 00:30:52,720
all my power out without

974
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:54,400
considering those two incredibly

975
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,560
important bits of presence, and

976
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:57,640
as you say, the warmth.

977
00:30:59,260 --> 00:31:00,240
Unknown: I mean, because that's

978
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:01,740
what leadership is. It's

979
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:03,180
bringing people with you. I

980
00:31:03,180 --> 00:31:04,980
mean, that that's thing, isn't

981
00:31:04,980 --> 00:31:10,680
it? It's and we, we. That's why

982
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:12,420
we have to think about what we

983
00:31:12,420 --> 00:31:14,880
say in certain situations and

984
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,300
and I suppose what what we do is

985
00:31:18,540 --> 00:31:20,840
we, we help people understand

986
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,000
the story that they're in in any

987
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,420
situation, and allow and and

988
00:31:26,420 --> 00:31:28,940
give people the the wherewithal

989
00:31:28,940 --> 00:31:31,400
to be able to decide, okay, how

990
00:31:31,460 --> 00:31:34,400
the easy ways of how we're going

991
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:35,540
to tackle this. Now

992
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:37,520
David Pullen: it's funny, I'm

993
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:39,440
I'm about to start a project

994
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:40,900
next week with a big client, and

995
00:31:40,900 --> 00:31:42,100
they're working on a massive

996
00:31:42,100 --> 00:31:44,380
pitch for a piece of work. And I

997
00:31:44,380 --> 00:31:45,940
can almost guarantee that I'll

998
00:31:45,940 --> 00:31:47,260
walk in there on Tuesday morning

999
00:31:47,260 --> 00:31:48,400
and they present their first

1000
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:49,540
draft to me. It'll be something

1001
00:31:49,540 --> 00:31:50,380
about they're going through

1002
00:31:50,380 --> 00:31:51,340
their credentials and

1003
00:31:51,340 --> 00:31:52,540
everything. And my first job

1004
00:31:52,540 --> 00:31:55,000
will be saying, can please, can

1005
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:56,440
you start by saying something

1006
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:57,700
that you've learned about them

1007
00:31:57,700 --> 00:31:58,900
through all the site visits that

1008
00:31:58,900 --> 00:32:00,360
you've been on? Just connect,

1009
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:01,740
just show that you've been

1010
00:32:01,740 --> 00:32:03,480
present and that you've listened

1011
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:04,620
and that you've understood.

1012
00:32:06,180 --> 00:32:06,780
Katie Flamman: It's all about

1013
00:32:06,780 --> 00:32:08,520
them. It's all about them. And

1014
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,880
that is not, yeah, well, but it

1015
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:13,500
kind of is. It isn't, but it is.

1016
00:32:13,620 --> 00:32:15,060
That's yourself, that that is

1017
00:32:15,060 --> 00:32:16,320
the driving engagement, isn't

1018
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:17,640
it? That's the connection,

1019
00:32:17,700 --> 00:32:19,920
that's the communication, and

1020
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:21,260
that that kind of invisible

1021
00:32:21,260 --> 00:32:23,120
thread that comes from that

1022
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:24,380
connection and the trust and the

1023
00:32:24,380 --> 00:32:26,960
warmth and and then so, so it's

1024
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:28,100
a pitch that you're going to be

1025
00:32:28,100 --> 00:32:29,780
working on. So that is the third

1026
00:32:29,780 --> 00:32:31,520
part of of the the kind of the

1027
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:32,600
three things I said at the

1028
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:33,800
beginning, the influencing

1029
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:35,720
change. Obviously, they want to

1030
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:37,160
win their pitch and they want to

1031
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,200
influence change. So they're

1032
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,080
going to be benefiting from all

1033
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,360
of your experience to help them

1034
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:44,680
to do that and well done them

1035
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:46,060
for recognising that they need a

1036
00:32:46,060 --> 00:32:46,600
bit of help.

1037
00:32:46,660 --> 00:32:47,260
David Pullen: You're welcome.

1038
00:32:47,260 --> 00:32:48,880
Thank you. Yes, our bank

1039
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:50,020
manager, thanks them as well.

1040
00:32:51,700 --> 00:32:53,500
Katie Flamman: So what about

1041
00:32:53,980 --> 00:32:56,500
outside the boardroom and the

1042
00:32:56,500 --> 00:32:58,660
world of work? Because your DNA

1043
00:32:58,660 --> 00:33:00,340
framework can help people kind

1044
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:02,340
of transform how they connect

1045
00:33:02,340 --> 00:33:03,600
with other people on a personal

1046
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,580
level as well. It's not just

1047
00:33:05,940 --> 00:33:07,080
business. We're all human

1048
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,000
beings. So can you just sort of

1049
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:10,800
speak to that a little bit Well,

1050
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:12,900
Unknown: I think, I mean, I have

1051
00:33:12,900 --> 00:33:14,460
alluded to it in terms of a

1052
00:33:14,460 --> 00:33:17,040
toddler and Uncle Fred and Uncle

1053
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,480
Fred, but I remember we were

1054
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,120
doing, oh yeah, we were doing a

1055
00:33:23,780 --> 00:33:26,300
workshop with some economists,

1056
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,720
and we were talking them through

1057
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,200
the structure of the DNA. And

1058
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,440
one of them said that that he

1059
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,600
had two small children. And

1060
00:33:38,660 --> 00:33:42,340
it's, I think it was the, oh,

1061
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,000
the NCT, was it? Was it the NCT,

1062
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,400
or it was it was some children

1063
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,720
organisation that they said it

1064
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:54,760
in a different way, but the sort

1065
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:56,860
of the format of addressing a

1066
00:33:56,860 --> 00:33:59,740
child was so that you can kind

1067
00:33:59,740 --> 00:34:01,260
of avoid the tantrum and all

1068
00:34:01,260 --> 00:34:03,840
that difficulty, or them feeling

1069
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:05,220
frightened and things like that,

1070
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:07,980
was indeed this very similar

1071
00:34:07,980 --> 00:34:10,320
type of idea that you connect.

1072
00:34:10,380 --> 00:34:13,080
You connect with them at first

1073
00:34:13,140 --> 00:34:14,160
with something that they

1074
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,440
understand, and only then can

1075
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:18,060
you introduce the negative thing

1076
00:34:18,060 --> 00:34:19,260
about that, something that they

1077
00:34:19,260 --> 00:34:21,800
can't can't understand might not

1078
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,140
happen because of something. So

1079
00:34:24,140 --> 00:34:26,720
why don't we do this? And I

1080
00:34:26,720 --> 00:34:28,880
thought it was amazing, wasn't

1081
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:29,720
it? Do you remember

1082
00:34:29,720 --> 00:34:30,380
David Pullen: that time as well?

1083
00:34:30,380 --> 00:34:31,580
We were working with that D and

1084
00:34:31,580 --> 00:34:32,960
I team at one of our clients,

1085
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:34,580
and they were so there was a

1086
00:34:34,580 --> 00:34:36,260
team who were driving D and I

1087
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:37,880
initiatives, right? What's dei

1088
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,040
diversity, equity and inclusion?

1089
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:40,480
Katie Flamman: Oh, right, right.

1090
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:41,800
Okay, yes. So

1091
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:42,820
David Pullen: they were a team

1092
00:34:42,820 --> 00:34:44,440
of relatively young people who

1093
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,340
were they'd been basically, they

1094
00:34:48,340 --> 00:34:49,720
were in charge of getting the

1095
00:34:49,720 --> 00:34:51,400
leadership to really drive the

1096
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,020
Diversity Equity and Inclusion.

1097
00:34:53,020 --> 00:34:54,160
So, massively important,

1098
00:34:54,340 --> 00:34:56,680
massively important. But of

1099
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:58,600
course, you know, the business

1100
00:34:58,600 --> 00:34:59,920
leaders have a day job to do.

1101
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,200
They've got numbers to hit, and

1102
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:02,520
so it's actually quite hard to

1103
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:03,720
get them to engage with the with

1104
00:35:03,720 --> 00:35:05,400
the concept of it. So we were

1105
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:06,480
working with them on how they

1106
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:07,920
engage those leadership, the

1107
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:09,720
leadership, and we went back to

1108
00:35:09,720 --> 00:35:10,980
do a follow up with them, and

1109
00:35:10,980 --> 00:35:12,120
the person who was in charge of

1110
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:13,920
this team said, you know, this

1111
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:15,600
is this is amazing. I mean, it

1112
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,280
really worked. It really works

1113
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:18,480
with the management. But I tell

1114
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:19,920
you, when it really worked even

1115
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:21,440
better was last weekend when I

1116
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:22,640
was trying to plan out my

1117
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:23,720
wedding with my fiance.

1118
00:35:27,860 --> 00:35:28,880
Katie Flamman: I mean, that's a

1119
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:30,680
real, really, really useful

1120
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,680
example. Love it. I love it.

1121
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,320
Okay, okay. Well, I mean, we

1122
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,600
could talk for another couple of

1123
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,500
hours, I think, and the rest. So

1124
00:35:41,740 --> 00:35:43,120
we'll have to stop. But people

1125
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:44,620
should buy your book. Evidently,

1126
00:35:44,620 --> 00:35:47,020
I would love you both to plug

1127
00:35:47,020 --> 00:35:49,420
your brilliant book, because it

1128
00:35:49,420 --> 00:35:51,100
is brilliant and and I don't

1129
00:35:51,100 --> 00:35:53,980
usually geek out so much about

1130
00:35:54,460 --> 00:35:55,600
about the offerings of my

1131
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:56,620
guests, but they are, you are

1132
00:35:56,620 --> 00:35:57,880
all brilliant. Anyway, I'm

1133
00:35:57,880 --> 00:35:59,440
Wittering. Please tell us about

1134
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:00,840
the book app, because it's been

1135
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:02,880
nominated for prizes, and it's

1136
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:04,860
amazing. So go on, go, go, go,

1137
00:36:04,860 --> 00:36:06,780
plug. There it is. So

1138
00:36:07,140 --> 00:36:08,280
David Pullen: the most exciting

1139
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,200
thing in on September the 10th,

1140
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,120
we'll be going to Wembley for

1141
00:36:12,180 --> 00:36:13,440
the Business Book of the Year

1142
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:15,720
awards, and we get to wear a

1143
00:36:15,720 --> 00:36:17,340
frock you get to wear, I might

1144
00:36:17,340 --> 00:36:21,380
get to wear, yes, and the lovely

1145
00:36:21,380 --> 00:36:23,780
thing is, we're nominated, if so

1146
00:36:23,780 --> 00:36:24,680
the business book, there are

1147
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:25,460
about eight different

1148
00:36:25,460 --> 00:36:27,020
categories, and one of the win

1149
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:28,280
winners those categories will

1150
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:29,300
become business book of the

1151
00:36:29,300 --> 00:36:31,280
year. What we're thrilled about

1152
00:36:31,340 --> 00:36:33,020
is that we're in the people,

1153
00:36:33,500 --> 00:36:36,800
culture and management category,

1154
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:38,900
which is, is fantastic because

1155
00:36:39,260 --> 00:36:40,960
essentially, that's what the

1156
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:42,400
book is about. It's about how

1157
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,080
you create the culture for the

1158
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:45,640
people and manage those people

1159
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,580
so that change happens. So yeah,

1160
00:36:48,580 --> 00:36:50,740
that's the Yeah. It hit number

1161
00:36:50,740 --> 00:36:53,560
one on Amazon in UK, US and

1162
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,980
Australia, and it's up for that

1163
00:36:56,980 --> 00:36:58,660
award September the 10th in

1164
00:36:58,660 --> 00:37:00,300
Wembley. People

1165
00:37:00,300 --> 00:37:00,840
Katie Flamman: need to go buy

1166
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:01,920
it, don't they? And you are

1167
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:03,000
obviously going to win the

1168
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,640
prize. So, um, so, yay, yay.

1169
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:07,320
We'll be rooting for you. Just

1170
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:08,340
Unknown: be great being there.

1171
00:37:08,340 --> 00:37:10,860
Yeah, we'll be great. Also, it's

1172
00:37:11,100 --> 00:37:14,280
fascinating talking to a load of

1173
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:15,300
authors. Oh, it's amazing. I

1174
00:37:15,300 --> 00:37:16,560
mean, that's the that's the

1175
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:17,700
really exciting thing.

1176
00:37:17,700 --> 00:37:18,540
David Pullen: We went as guests

1177
00:37:18,540 --> 00:37:19,980
last year. And actually, yes,

1178
00:37:19,980 --> 00:37:21,180
Sarah Jane says being in a room

1179
00:37:21,180 --> 00:37:21,620
of authors

1180
00:37:22,460 --> 00:37:23,900
Unknown: is is almost as all

1181
00:37:23,900 --> 00:37:25,400
their stories. It's amazing,

1182
00:37:25,580 --> 00:37:26,840
almost as weird as being in a

1183
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:27,620
room full of actors.

1184
00:37:29,180 --> 00:37:30,440
Katie Flamman: Surely not. Well,

1185
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:32,600
congratulations. It's, it's a

1186
00:37:32,660 --> 00:37:34,340
it's an amazing book. It really

1187
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:36,320
is. Thank you. But before,

1188
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,480
before we go, I'd like to know,

1189
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:39,860
we know a little bit about your

1190
00:37:39,860 --> 00:37:41,320
backstory, but I'd like to know

1191
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,900
about your story to come what,

1192
00:37:43,900 --> 00:37:45,280
what? What does your story look

1193
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:46,720
like for the next five years?

1194
00:37:46,720 --> 00:37:48,220
And you can answer individually,

1195
00:37:48,220 --> 00:37:50,260
or you can do it as a couple.

1196
00:37:50,260 --> 00:37:50,920
It's up to you.

1197
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:52,000
David Pullen: I'm quite enjoying

1198
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:52,540
the cuddles.

1199
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:57,580
Unknown: It's yeah, I do, you

1200
00:37:57,580 --> 00:38:00,280
know, I, I'm a great believer

1201
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,160
in, in, you know, you create

1202
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:03,840
something and just watching it

1203
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,300
grow. So I don't really have,

1204
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,020
yeah, I obviously, I want to, I

1205
00:38:10,020 --> 00:38:11,820
want it to sort of spread more,

1206
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,480
I guess, this whole idea. But

1207
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,540
I'm more concerned really, or

1208
00:38:18,540 --> 00:38:20,720
I'm just hopeful that more

1209
00:38:20,720 --> 00:38:22,820
people really kind of opt for

1210
00:38:22,820 --> 00:38:24,740
this and kind of get it under

1211
00:38:24,740 --> 00:38:27,440
their belt. That's what I'd

1212
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:29,600
really like, is there's so much.

1213
00:38:29,720 --> 00:38:31,460
I mean, you know, a politics at

1214
00:38:31,460 --> 00:38:32,720
the moment, I'm not going to go

1215
00:38:32,720 --> 00:38:34,340
in there. I mean, I just, yeah,

1216
00:38:34,820 --> 00:38:36,920
my eye, it's such a shame,

1217
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,680
because we don't deserve it, and

1218
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:41,920
we don't deserve lies and deceit

1219
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:43,180
and all this sort of thing, and

1220
00:38:43,180 --> 00:38:44,380
different all the different

1221
00:38:44,380 --> 00:38:45,460
stories that are coming out,

1222
00:38:45,460 --> 00:38:46,000
which is, I

1223
00:38:46,780 --> 00:38:47,500
David Pullen: think this is a

1224
00:38:47,500 --> 00:38:50,560
great point, if

1225
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,420
Unknown: you can only sit down

1226
00:38:52,540 --> 00:38:54,640
and really talk and really

1227
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,880
discuss without being completely

1228
00:38:57,880 --> 00:38:59,920
and utterly just one direction

1229
00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:02,160
all the time, so that it's just

1230
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,800
deep, deep, deep. Do you know

1231
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:06,360
it'd be quite nice. I

1232
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:07,140
David Pullen: think it would be.

1233
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:08,400
I think, I mean, you know,

1234
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:09,600
obviously the future. I mean,

1235
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:10,680
we'd love people to buy the

1236
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:11,940
book, and we'd love to work with

1237
00:39:11,940 --> 00:39:13,140
more people, because that's very

1238
00:39:13,140 --> 00:39:14,820
nice for us personally. But I

1239
00:39:14,820 --> 00:39:16,080
think the point that Sarah Jane

1240
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,720
makes is incredibly important. I

1241
00:39:18,720 --> 00:39:19,920
mean, as you know, Katie, I

1242
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,520
mean, the power of story is so

1243
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:24,080
strong that it can be used for

1244
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,000
good and it can be used for ILL.

1245
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:27,740
So to be actually, actually

1246
00:39:27,740 --> 00:39:30,860
giving people the tools whereby

1247
00:39:30,860 --> 00:39:33,080
they can use story ethically to

1248
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:34,700
really connect and make change.

1249
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:36,680
Funnily enough, I wrote an

1250
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:38,120
article that was published last

1251
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,100
week called it was interesting.

1252
00:39:40,340 --> 00:39:42,400
The brief was what CEOs can

1253
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,200
learn from the boring power of

1254
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,180
Mark Carney, who's the prime

1255
00:39:46,180 --> 00:39:49,840
minister of of Canada. And I, my

1256
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:51,640
premise was, I don't think he's

1257
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:52,960
boring at all. What I think he

1258
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:56,080
is measured, he's meticulous,

1259
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,180
and he genuinely connected with

1260
00:39:58,180 --> 00:40:00,600
the desire of the. The of the

1261
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:02,700
Canadian people and what they

1262
00:40:02,700 --> 00:40:04,080
hope for for their future. And

1263
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,960
so I think the more that we can

1264
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:07,860
you know, there are certain

1265
00:40:07,860 --> 00:40:09,060
elements in this world at the

1266
00:40:09,060 --> 00:40:10,440
moment who are really clever at

1267
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:11,640
telling stories, and they don't

1268
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:12,900
really care whether they're true

1269
00:40:12,900 --> 00:40:15,180
or not. Oh yeah, and they're

1270
00:40:15,180 --> 00:40:17,280
working. So to be able to give

1271
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,160
good people the equal power, to

1272
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:22,580
be able to use these skills,

1273
00:40:22,820 --> 00:40:26,120
ethic, ethically. Yes, the last

1274
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:27,380
chapter of our book is called

1275
00:40:27,380 --> 00:40:31,880
The only way is ethics. We Yeah,

1276
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:33,380
that would be great. And to earn

1277
00:40:33,380 --> 00:40:35,120
some money alongside love

1278
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:37,040
Katie Flamman: that and any,

1279
00:40:37,100 --> 00:40:39,200
any, you know, holidays desserts

1280
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:40,600
you want to try anything a

1281
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:41,740
little bit lighter than, you

1282
00:40:41,740 --> 00:40:43,180
know, saving the world with the

1283
00:40:43,720 --> 00:40:46,240
ethics of inspiring story.

1284
00:40:46,540 --> 00:40:47,320
David Pullen: Well, okay,

1285
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:48,280
here's, here's the thing. We're

1286
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,200
literally back from five days.

1287
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:51,760
We'd had a very last minute trip

1288
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:52,900
to the Netherlands. We've just

1289
00:40:52,900 --> 00:40:53,980
been in the Netherlands. We were

1290
00:40:53,980 --> 00:40:55,480
announced lovely, quite well,

1291
00:40:55,660 --> 00:40:57,280
but the Hague, which was a real

1292
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,960
surprise. And we have this, we

1293
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,180
have this pet project that may

1294
00:41:03,180 --> 00:41:04,500
never, ever happen, but we

1295
00:41:04,500 --> 00:41:06,120
always talk about it when we go

1296
00:41:06,420 --> 00:41:08,100
away. Is called toga travel.

1297
00:41:08,100 --> 00:41:09,720
Toga stands for two old gits

1298
00:41:09,720 --> 00:41:12,360
abroad, because what we're

1299
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:16,380
really good at doing is, is, is

1300
00:41:16,380 --> 00:41:18,000
just sort of getting in, just

1301
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:19,440
getting into the nitty gritty of

1302
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:20,720
someone, and listening to the

1303
00:41:20,720 --> 00:41:22,700
stories of people. And our

1304
00:41:22,700 --> 00:41:24,620
favourite trick is we'll find

1305
00:41:24,620 --> 00:41:25,940
out. We'll we'll find a really

1306
00:41:25,940 --> 00:41:27,200
good restaurant that we go to,

1307
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:29,480
and then we say to the person in

1308
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:30,560
charge of it, so where do you

1309
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:32,180
reckon we should go next? And

1310
00:41:32,180 --> 00:41:34,700
the places that we've gone just

1311
00:41:34,700 --> 00:41:36,140
on recommendation, because we're

1312
00:41:36,140 --> 00:41:37,760
interested in listening to, you

1313
00:41:38,240 --> 00:41:40,840
know their recommendations. Love

1314
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:42,580
to do more of that. Brilliant,

1315
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:43,480
Katie Flamman: brilliant,

1316
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,120
brilliant, well, I could tell

1317
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:47,920
you about the scuba diving

1318
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:49,120
holiday I went on based on a

1319
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:50,440
recommendation from a taxi

1320
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:51,820
driver in Ireland. But

1321
00:41:51,940 --> 00:41:53,920
unfortunately, we don't have

1322
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:58,240
time, so we'll save that for the

1323
00:41:58,240 --> 00:42:00,960
next one. I think. Well, David

1324
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:01,920
Pullen and Sarah, Jane

1325
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,440
McKechnie, thank you so much for

1326
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:06,240
being on the podcast. Of course,

1327
00:42:06,240 --> 00:42:07,920
we'll make sure that all of the

1328
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:09,120
ways that people can connect

1329
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:10,500
with you and work with you and

1330
00:42:10,500 --> 00:42:11,580
buy your book, we'll put all of

1331
00:42:11,580 --> 00:42:12,600
that information in the show

1332
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:13,980
notes, but just tell us as well.

1333
00:42:13,980 --> 00:42:15,900
How can people find you both?

1334
00:42:15,900 --> 00:42:17,160
Well, we've

1335
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:17,820
David Pullen: got a brand new,

1336
00:42:17,820 --> 00:42:21,500
shiny website, www dot the story

1337
00:42:21,500 --> 00:42:24,140
spotters.com, which has all of

1338
00:42:24,140 --> 00:42:25,340
the, you know, all of the

1339
00:42:25,340 --> 00:42:26,780
details of how we work, as you

1340
00:42:26,780 --> 00:42:27,800
said, both within the

1341
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:29,120
consulting, coaching and

1342
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:31,220
training space, and then

1343
00:42:31,220 --> 00:42:33,320
LinkedIn, that's where we are.

1344
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,060
Both of us are on LinkedIn. And

1345
00:42:35,900 --> 00:42:37,340
go there, at your peril, because

1346
00:42:37,340 --> 00:42:38,840
we like using LinkedIn quite a

1347
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:40,240
lot. So you're

1348
00:42:40,240 --> 00:42:40,900
Katie Flamman: a breath of fresh

1349
00:42:40,900 --> 00:42:43,300
air on LinkedIn, for sure. Thank

1350
00:42:43,300 --> 00:42:44,920
you both so much. Have a lovely

1351
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:46,060
rest of your day. Thank you.

1352
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:52,000
Thanks. Katie, bye, bye. Wow.

1353
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:53,680
What a way to kick off season

1354
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:56,080
two. Wasn't that epic? Okay,

1355
00:42:56,740 --> 00:42:59,320
brace yourself, grab grab a pen

1356
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,160
and paper, because here are my

1357
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:06,000
key takeaways. Number one, there

1358
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,240
are four types of story. One,

1359
00:43:09,240 --> 00:43:11,160
the stories we tell. Two, the

1360
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:12,960
stories we listen for that help

1361
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:14,640
us to connect with other people.

1362
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:16,200
Three, the stories we present to

1363
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:17,880
the world in our behaviour and

1364
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,580
how we show up, and four, the

1365
00:43:20,580 --> 00:43:23,420
stories we tell ourselves, key

1366
00:43:23,420 --> 00:43:25,880
takeaway number two, don't

1367
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:30,440
forget your humanity. Listen. We

1368
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,240
all live through stories. So

1369
00:43:32,240 --> 00:43:33,260
it's a natural way to

1370
00:43:33,260 --> 00:43:34,640
communicate and connect with

1371
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:36,080
other people and understand one

1372
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:37,940
another. I want you to imagine

1373
00:43:37,940 --> 00:43:39,380
arrows connecting all of this

1374
00:43:39,380 --> 00:43:41,740
stuff. Story equals

1375
00:43:41,740 --> 00:43:43,720
communication, equals

1376
00:43:43,780 --> 00:43:45,520
connection, equals

1377
00:43:45,700 --> 00:43:48,640
understanding, and understanding

1378
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:50,440
leads to trust, which enables

1379
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:52,780
collaboration, and that's how we

1380
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:57,160
get engagement three but in

1381
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:58,840
business, we can sometimes lose

1382
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:00,960
sight of that emotional journey

1383
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:02,640
of connection and our humanity

1384
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:04,080
and we get bogged down by the

1385
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,840
facts, whereas the story

1386
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:08,640
spotters think of the facts and

1387
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:10,440
the data as the outer spokes of

1388
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,080
a wheel with story as the

1389
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:14,640
central hub, which holds it all

1390
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:16,440
together and enables it to turn

1391
00:44:17,700 --> 00:44:22,580
four. Breathe, baby. Breathe. No

1392
00:44:22,580 --> 00:44:26,600
matter how busy you are, take a

1393
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:28,520
moment to come back to your

1394
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:34,520
body. Just breathe. Calm your

1395
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:39,440
nervous system. Five leadership

1396
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,820
is bringing people with you as a

1397
00:44:42,820 --> 00:44:45,220
leader. You need to understand

1398
00:44:45,220 --> 00:44:47,020
the story you're in, and you

1399
00:44:47,020 --> 00:44:49,360
need to understand the DNA of

1400
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,360
engagement, dream, Nightmare,

1401
00:44:52,780 --> 00:44:56,620
action, remember, so take time

1402
00:44:56,860 --> 00:44:58,480
to understand your audience's

1403
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,260
dreams and. Then gently remind

1404
00:45:01,260 --> 00:45:02,280
them that they'll be facing a

1405
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:03,720
nightmare if they don't take the

1406
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,320
action you want before you know

1407
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:08,880
it, they'll be putting on their

1408
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:13,620
own wellies. Golly, that was a

1409
00:45:13,620 --> 00:45:17,340
lot, but wasn't it good? And

1410
00:45:17,460 --> 00:45:19,800
there's so much more great stuff

1411
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:23,120
to come in the podcast, in next

1412
00:45:23,180 --> 00:45:25,580
week's episode, a bit of

1413
00:45:25,580 --> 00:45:26,420
showbiz.

1414
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:29,720
Unknown: It was ridiculous that

1415
00:45:29,720 --> 00:45:31,820
this was my life. I would be

1416
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:33,500
maybe going to chat to Meryl

1417
00:45:33,500 --> 00:45:35,000
Streep in a hotel room for a bit

1418
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:36,740
about her latest film, and then

1419
00:45:36,740 --> 00:45:37,880
I'd be going to a recording

1420
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:39,980
studio to chat to Mark Ronson or

1421
00:45:39,980 --> 00:45:42,280
Jay Z about their latest album,

1422
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:43,720
and then maybe in the evening,

1423
00:45:43,720 --> 00:45:46,420
I'd go see Beyonce sing at a

1424
00:45:46,420 --> 00:45:48,280
kind of private like album

1425
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:50,860
launch thing, and repeat that

1426
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:52,600
literally every single day for

1427
00:45:52,780 --> 00:45:54,460
more than a decade. Natalie

1428
00:45:54,460 --> 00:45:55,180
Katie Flamman: Jameson,

1429
00:45:55,240 --> 00:45:56,860
entertainment reporter and

1430
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,680
podcast creative tells us how

1431
00:45:59,740 --> 00:46:02,760
podcasting is a spectacular way

1432
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:04,980
to share stories and also what

1433
00:46:04,980 --> 00:46:06,180
to expect if you ever meet

1434
00:46:06,180 --> 00:46:08,040
Daniel Craik. Essential

1435
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:11,100
listening. Okay, I'm off now to

1436
00:46:11,100 --> 00:46:12,540
practice my story spotting

1437
00:46:12,540 --> 00:46:15,540
skills. I'm Katie Flamen, and

1438
00:46:15,540 --> 00:46:17,340
this is storytelling for

1439
00:46:17,340 --> 00:46:19,200
business till next time.

1440
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:20,300
Goodbye. You