The DNA, we should

say, doesn't stand for

deoxyribonucleic acid. It stands

for dream. No, it doesn't. No,

it stands for Dream, Nightmare

action, which is the pattern we

live in life. And this pattern

of dream, Nightmare action is

how we we understand, plan and

problem solve our lives every

day, every day, every moment of

the day, from getting the kids

up to trying to solve the

climate crisis is this, what do

we do? What's the dream? What's

going to get in the way of it,

the nightmare? What actions do

we take? We discovered that the

best way to build the trust and

drive the engagement and

influence the change is start by

understanding the other person

and connecting to their dream

before you start forcing the

problems and the actions you

Hello and welcome

to storytelling for business,

the podcast that helps you

connect with your customers and

clients by simply using stories.

Of course, there's nothing

actually simple about it, but

we'll get to that. I'm Katie

Flamen. I'm a voice actor

specialising in corporate

storytelling, I work remotely

with clients all over the world,

clients like AmEx, Pfizer and

Nat Geo, but I love working with

SMEs, small to medium sized

enterprises and startups as

well. Everyone big or small gets

the same level of service

because weirdly, doesn't really

matter to me who you are or how

big you are, what matters is the

stories you're telling. That's

what I love about my job. And

you see, in corporate marketing,

some stories, some scripts, are

better than others, and I wanted

to find out why that is. What

are the ingredients and what's

the formula for a great story,

one that makes the hairs stand

up on the back of your neck,

makes you want to cry, makes you

feel seen. Those feelings are

intense, and if they're

happening when you're watching

an advert or a brand film or

reading a post on LinkedIn, that

is powerful. So the storytelling

for business podcast is on a

mission to understand all this

stuff. I'm talking to

storytelling experts and real

life regular business owners

too, who have interesting jobs

and, of course, fascinating

stories. And today's episode,

it's gonna be a cracker, because

I've got the pleasure of talking

to David Pullen and Sarah Jane

McKechnie, who are the story

spotters. So quick intro, David

and Sarah Jane are, in my view,

the power couple of the

storytelling world. They offer

business consulting, coaching

and training. They've worked

with a few companies you might

have heard of, Microsoft, ey,

PwC, Novartis, AXA, American

Express, I could go on. They

work with clients, all kinds of

clients, to discover, develop

and deliver a strategic story

that connects and wins. And they

very kindly shared the tricks of

their trade with all of us in

the exceptional new book, The

DNA of engagement. Here it is.

Well, anyway, that's quite

enough from me. Let's actually

let them talk for a minute. So

let's meet them. David Pullen

and Sarah. Jane McKechnie,

welcome to storytelling for

business. Hello. Thank you,

Katie, that's

gonna be incredibly hard to talk

on the wake of your amazing

introduction. Thank you. Excuse,

after years of working together

and more years of marriage to

actually have to cuddle up to

get into

shots, your first ever

cuddle on camera. I bet it

isn't.

Okay, let's start

so you are the story spotters.

What does that mean? How did

that become a thing?

Well, there are

two things there. There's what

it means and how it came to be.

I mean, if I, if I say how it

came to be, then Sergeant can

explain exactly what story

spotting means, because it's as

opposed to it incorporates

storytelling, but it has other

elements to it as well. I mean,

as you said earlier on, I mean

Sarah Jane McKechnie and David

Pullen, which are two of the

names that are often misspelt

and more often mispronounced. So

for years, we were called

McKechnie Pullen limited, which

sounded like a sort of Midlands

estate agent. And I was doing

some work in during lockdown,

actually, with a guy called Neil

Bearden, who was the he was,

he's a stats prof, or was a

stats prof at INSEAD in

Singapore. And he got in touch

with me on LinkedIn and said,

Listen, everything's going

online. He taught storytelling

at INSEAD as well. Said, Listen,

I'm taking it all online. I've

got sort of too much to do.

Would you come and support me on

this? To which I said, Yeah,

brilliant, absolutely. And we

got on really well. And one

night after, because I say night

because it was happening all

over the world, and I'd be

drinking espresso at three

o'clock. In the morning. Oh,

yeah, but fun, because really

interesting people. And Neil

said, I really like what you do,

David, what actually do you do?

And I said, Well, essentially,

what Sarah, Jane and I do is we

go into organisations and we

whether it's a change programme,

whether it's a sales programme,

whatever we we listen to the

fact that they're talking until

we sort of, you know, little

like Haley Joel Osment in who

says, I saw, I see dead people.

We see stories. So we listen to

the facts, and we go, I think

the story you're trying to tell

is this. And people say, Oh,

that's exactly what it is. Let's

use that story as the as the hub

off which the the spokes of the

facts and the data drive.

If you're in

business, I'm so sorry. I'm

interrupting you for a sec. If

you're in business, you kind of,

you think in sort of bullet

points and PowerPoints maybe,

don't you? And, and, I mean, it

seems to me that what you've

just described is kind of seeing

the heart behind, behind that or

or the emotion behind the thing.

It's

that combination

of logic and emotion, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Sarah Jane McKechnie: I mean,

our lives are a story. Yeah. You

know, when we every day that we

live it's a story that that's

the thing we we live through

stories. So it's an incredibly

natural way to communicate, to

understand things, to be able to

make somebody else understand

what you're talking about. And

understanding is so incredibly I

mean, obviously understanding is

the base of collaboration. So

it's story is it's fundamental,

what it's what's

allowed us to sort of rise up

the food chain, essentially, and

sort of be the ones that you

know have, for want of a better

word, dominated the planet,

because we do understand and

plan and problem solve our lives

through this, as Sarah James

says, this concept, what is the

story of our lives? And we help

and, well, this is what Neil

said. He said, Oh, you're a

story spot. You help people spot

the stories. And we said, well,

we are. Now,

that's a catchy

business name. Neil. How? Well,

okay, so there's a bit, a little

bit on your website, which is

this very cute little video.

It's like, it's like the kind

of, you know, the about us

section on your video on your

website, and there's this sweet

little video called 90 seconds

with the story spotters, and

it's each of you guys sitting on

a sofa, and it cuts between,

it's one question, and then each

of you answers it, and there's

questions like, What's your

favourite breakfast and who was

your first kiss? And then under

that, there's a more kind of

traditional CV, with the bullet

points, explaining how you both

used to be actors and you've

performed on stages around the

world and how you've been script

writers for leaders and teams

and trained as coaches and

studied hypnotherapy. However, I

have remembered all the things,

but it's the smashed avocado and

the behind the bike bike shed

kiss that I remembered first,

and that also, that also kind of

endeared me to you, even though

I knew already. So that's kind

of illustrating what Sarah Jane,

what you're saying, isn't it

about we're always telling

stories. They're little, tiny

snippets on those videos, but

each one is a story, and it

creates a picture, and

it creates a you know, the

connection is so much stronger

as soon as you can and see and

then you can and and sharing

that, that kind of, even if it's

very small, you're sharing

experiences. You're igniting

something in somebody else's

mind, because they're going,

they're going, then to the story

that they have about any

situation. And it's, it is our

way. I mean, the the basis of

the story, spotters really is,

is we look at story in four

ways. Which is, one is the

stories that you tell, which,

when you tell a story, you

ignite things in other people's

minds. That's, that's the thing,

and it's a wonderful way of

explaining things because,

because that is how we live, we,

as I said, are, you know, every

day is a story. So the stories

that we tell in order to explain

the stories that we listen for,

which is incredibly important

because by stories out of others

and and being able to understand

people better if we if we hear

the stories and are interested

in other people's stories, so

it's a that's the connection

that is so important, the

stories that we tell by our

behaviours, which say it's how

we show up, and all That pieces,

the how we treat people, all

those kinds of things, tells a

story and and has an effect on

other people around. And then

there are the stories. My

favourite, really, yeah. It's

the stories that we tell

ourselves, this concept, Oh,

yeah. And we have that rambling

that we have that thing. All the

time, and, and when we come,

when we you know, somebody might

say something, and all of a

sudden it jars. And we are

remembering something. And

we're, we're, we're triggered

yeah by something Yeah. And it's

understanding that and, and it

can sort of scupper all sorts of

conversations which, which are

needed again, for this

collaboration, so to understand

that and to understand what

triggers why, and instead of,

instead of kind of having that

initial reaction to it, which

might scupper you is get curious

instead. So, so

how can you

reframe your own story,

turning your fear

into excitement, turning your

turning your trigger into

curiosity, yeah, yeah,

it's there's

something that you said there

Katie about just remembering the

stories we told about kisses

behind bike sheds and stuff like

that. And and this picks up on

what Sarah Jane was saying as

well. I think that the power of

the story is, is, is, is that

combination of, it's essentially

a fact in context which which

brings the fact to life. And,

you know, there's so much

written on everywhere about

leadership and vulnerability,

but what does that actually

mean? And I think, I think the

act of storytelling is an act of

vulnerability in itself. Yes,

you're letting people into your

heart as well as your head, and

you're risking that somebody

might say, well, I don't agree

with you, which is great,

because then you're in a

discussion and it's, um, well,

then you've

already made a connection.

Whether they agree with you or

not, they've engaged with what

you're saying. Couldn't agree

more. Yeah,

exactly, yeah. So, oh,

I love it. We're

getting down to the get down to

the nitty gritty already. I've

got feeling a bit goose bumpy.

Okay, so we've, we've sort of

skirted around it, but story has

value, and all of those

different four types of story so

that, I mean, there's a whole,

there's a whole podcast episode

slash book on that stuff. But so

let's kind of, let's talk about

your book, right? The book is

called the DNA of engagement. So

come on, tell me, tell us. Tell

us all about the book. I've

waved it around that I'll just

say, first, it's super fun. It's

got pictures and diagrams and

The Sarah Jane Adventures, and

it's divided into Acts and

scenes, and it's really

accessible and fun, but it's a

kick ass blueprint, seriously,

or an action plan for, well, for

some really, really heavy stuff.

So So tell us about the book.

What's the point of your book,

please? Well,

I have to say we

were the people who never wanted

to write a book, because

basically, who needs another

business book? I mean, they're

usually like a blog that got out

of hand, and so it's, you know,

we three things happened. I

mean, one, there was, well, one,

there was somebody who sort of

saw the stuff we do on LinkedIn

and said, You guys have got a

tone of voice. You should really

think about writing someone then

we were doing this particular

piece of work with Aviva, which

under the leadership of Amanda

block, named Amanda Blanc, when

she was changing the strategy of

the company, when she

essentially said to her 200 top

leaders, this is the strategy.

We're slimming the company down

in this way. This is the forward

thinking. I can't do it myself.

You have to make this happen.

And there was a big piece of

work that was was led by

Accenture about the strategy and

what the leaders actually did

mentally around that, when they

suddenly realised, okay, that's

one thing, but they then have to

go out and have the

conversations, which get the

which get the 22,000 people at

the time in the organisation to

lean in. Oh yeah, I want to be

part of that. So they brought us

on board to create that part of

the programme about, how do you

get people, essentially, to be

excited by the possibility, and

then also, co create the future.

CO create the story, which is

really important. Actually, you

can tell people's stories, but

if they, if they, if they add to

it themselves, and, yes, you

know, colour the stories

themselves, then they, they are

more likely to buy into the

story and make the story happen.

So the book really is the it's

the journey of how we actually

did that piece of work, plus

tonnes of other stuff that

we've, we've done right

throughout our careers with

leaders, and that's what it is.

And it's, yeah, it's, it's

designed, really, as a guide to

help people on the journey,

people who have to have the

conversations that build trust,

which is the primary thing

driving, which will drive

engagement, and therefore

influence change, whether it's,

you know, changing the direction

of a company or, you know,

changing your partner's mind

about a restaurant that they

don't want to go to. Yes,

that's, that's always more,

that's always a difficult one.

Yeah. I mean, we

all know, we all know where the

serious challenges are, right?

Technically, of course,

Katie.

So, okay,

building trust everybody. That's

what everybody wants, right?

Know, like and trust all of that

stuff. Yeah, so I think, I think

we've touched on it with talking

about your little video and

talking about vulnerability. But

how, how? How do we get them to

trust us.

Well, do you want

to talk about the whole

understanding thing? Because

there's a, you know, we say it's

basically the DNA. We should say

doesn't stand for

deoxyribonucleic acid. It stands

for green. No, it doesn't No,

although we think it's as

equally valid and worthy of a

Nobel Prize. Plus,

I love it that

you just said that as well.

Yes, exactly. That

would have been. Had to edit

that one. It's a it stands for

Dream, Nightmare action, which

is a pattern that we all this is

the thing that Sarah Jane was

saying about, about the the

pattern we live in life. We have

a dream. We have something that

we want to achieve. We want to

get on the call this morning

with Katie, and it's going to be

fantastic. And then the

nightmare is, you know, you've

got to update your system or

something like that. That gets

in the way, and you've got five

minutes to do. So the action is

you start racing around trying

to get it all done. And this

pattern of dream, Nightmare,

action is how we we understand,

plan and problem solve our lives

and what we every day, every

day, every moment of the day,

from getting the kids up to

trying to solve the climate

crisis, is, what do we do?

What's the dream? What's going

to get in the wave at the

nightmare? What actions do we

take? And we just we discovered

that the best way this dream to

build the trust and drive the

engagement and influence the

change is start by understanding

the other person and connecting

to their dream before you start

forcing the problems and the

actions. If you want to talk

about that understanding,

I mean, it's, it is.

It's, it's, it's if, I mean,

it's like a toddler, isn't it?

If you say to a toddler, you

know, and you're furious, and

you just want them to do

something, put your wellies on,

and they're determined not to do

that because they don't want to

put their wellies on. You have

to find a different way doing

it. So you have to connect to

the dream. And you know that

lovely pond and puddle that you

like playing with in the park,

right? Well, we can go there

today. I think it was very nice

to go down, but you won't be

able to go in the water unless

you put your wellies on. So

would it be a good idea to put

them on now and then we can have

a really good splash. The thing

is that we often what we do is

want to put them on what they're

not on and because you, because

it's your plan, that you think,

no, I've got to go to the park

now because, and then I've got

to, you know, time

to discuss it and

actually do

discussing it saves time in the

end. Yes,

and it's, it's that

whole thing of, I mean, on the

basic level of this is if you

connect to people's dreams, if

you, if you connect to people in

the way that they need to be

connected. I mean, it's your

thing about connection before

correction. It's, it's the the

if you can connect and show that

you understand and and you, you,

you are. You've heard, you've

listened. I mean, all these

things that allow space and

connection and and then only

then, when people are doing what

you're doing now, which is

nodding, you know, it's that,

yeah, yes, okay, this person

understands me. It's so it's

such a basic human need that

then only then can you really

have the right to say, but, but

this is, this is, you know, yes,

exactly. This might not happen

because, and give a reason. So

it's, I think one of the things

that's so important is to always

remember that you have to care

for your and I'm going to use

the word audience, and what I'm

audience is anybody that,

whether it's a toddler, whether

it's, you know, 1000 people in a

hall, whether it's your direct

reports, or whoever it is, yes,

is, is you absolutely have to

care about how they're going to

get this message, what what

their agenda is and or what you

can agree with with that's

interesting. You

said those two words connection

and understanding and

reconnecting. And it's, it's

interesting. I mean, one of the

things that we often think about

is that, is that this trust is

built on understanding, and the

understanding is is twofold. I

mean, we tend to trust those who

we feel have understood us, who

have connected with Yes, but we

also trust things that we find

it easy to understand, which is

where storytelling comes in,

because storytelling just puts

everyone. The same page they

have, they have a vivid picture

of what things are going to look

like. So being understood and

making people understand are the

basis of building trust. Really.

I is an example that I

often use in workshops, and it's

if you imagine that you're

together for a family reunion or

something, or some sort of, I

don't know, some, some festival

that you're, that you have, and

the family is there, and there's

Uncle Fred, who you never

normally see, and he is, he

won't talk about anything other

than fishing, so you know,

that's his hobby. And so,

because we are also getting his

wellies on, but because we are

in that, in those kinds of

family, you know, often where we

feel benign, and it's a it's a

celebration and everything we

have, the patience and the

understanding. Go up to Uncle

Fred and say, Oh, have you been

fishing lately? And we will

listen and ask questions,

because we care, yeah, and I

think, I think, you know this,

this kind of the fact that we

do, we do it automatically in

certain situation, but when the

pressures on, and when we have,

when we have a whole load of

things, because, because we're

kind of one track in terms of

this is what I need to do. This

is a we, we stop. We kind of

want to bypass that, because all

the humanity that we actually

have often, can it can recede?

Can't it? No, it's

really interesting. Yeah,

it's a beautiful

example, isn't it? Because we

might write the

book. Next book might be called

the Fred effect, but

I think, in a

corporate setting, so you're not

really interested in fishing,

right? But, but you care about

Uncle Fred, and you care that he

is interested in fishing, so you

want to tease out that that

conversation and make him feel

welcome and make him feel seen.

And you know, did you want

another piece of cake, all of

all of that stuff? And in a

corporate setting, you're maybe

not. You don't really

necessarily care about your

client's thing, but you have to

care. You have to properly care

and invest in the thing and

learn about the thing because

they care. And actually, by the

end of it, you probably do care.

I think it's

a case of, also we

have, we have huge agendas that

we have, you know, things that

we need to, that we have to

achieve, and all that kind of

thing, which isn't, there's

nothing wrong with that, but

it's, it's fraught. You know,

there's, there's a lot going on.

And so it is it is it is more

likely that we don't stop

breathe and think about

actually, this is a

conversation. I

think that's really important,

because we are all so time poor,

yes, in our personal lives and

and in our working lives,

everybody wants to just cut to

the chase and get on with it. So

so let's talk about a few kind

of like actual, useful, hard

fact tip, things that people can

do to help them. And I

appreciate that you've just

described you have to take the

time. You can't rush this stuff.

But if you've only got limited

amount of time, how do you

maximise the productivity of

that time that you've got?

Can I tell you one

Yeah. I mean, you're right. You

do have to take the time, but it

doesn't take a huge amount of

time because, I mean, one of the

things we talk about in the book

Katie is a thing called triune

brain theory, which was

developed in Yale in the 60s,

and it's been sort of slightly

outmoded now with sort of like

neuro imagery and advances in

neuroscience and but there's a

basic premise behind it, which

is still true for communication,

is that our brain works in three

ways. There's the there's the

reptilian, the oldest part of

our brain, which is basically

pattern matching, and sort of

going, do I like this person? Do

I trust them? Can do I actually

want to be around them? That's

the first gatekeeper of the

brain that sort of gets you so

it's how you show up in the

room. Is, is, is huge about

that. I mean, do you look like

somebody they want to spend time

with? The second part of the

brain is the is the limbic

system, the emotional part, if

you like, which is, which is the

one that wants to feel, have I

been understood? Only then do we

get to the newest part of our

brain, which is the, which is

the neocortex, which is the, you

know, rational problem solving

stuff. And I think the time poor

thing is, means that in

business, what we often do is we

rush to that without getting

past the two gatekeepers first.

And I think the simple tip is,

is really just to Sarah Jane's

point. Breathe before you go

into any situation, before you

switch the teams. Call on,

before you walk through a room,

just think to yourself, how am I

going to show up in this room?

Who am I bringing into this

space? Just show up as your best

self. Connect. Don't put on it's

not about. Putting on an act,

but it's about genuinely showing

up with presence and warmth. And

the warmth is the the presence

is looking and sounding like you

don't want to be anywhere else

except right here, right now, in

this moment, fully focused,

focused, absolutely focused. And

then the warmth is about showing

that you've considered the other

person, that what you are doing

is is is not orientated towards

yourself, but it is orientated

towards the greater good, or the

other person, or whatever it is.

So quite simply, show up well,

and then make the first thing

that comes out of your mouth,

something that shows the other

person that you have considered

them. That's the that's the

easiest way to

do that. I think this

thing of breathing is so

important, and I've talked about

this quite often, is, is this

the whole thing of we rush from

one meeting to another meeting,

and often there's, there's, you

know, files, lifts, whatever you

know, getting in the end, yeah,

yeah. And we don't really, I

think that there is a sort of

mental thing that goes on

because we know we've got to but

we don't allow our bodies to

rest. And the thing is that it's

not just our brains that are

going into the meeting. It's our

entire being that's going and so

I think there's a something that

I learned some time ago from a

she, and she was a very, very

wise meditation teacher, and she

called it the change breath. So

when you, if you think about,

you're in a meeting, and you're,

you're, you know, you've had all

sorts of stimuli and all that

kind of things. Loads of

remember those. Remember taken

notes and everything. And yet,

then you go out, clutching your

files, whatever, and going

straight to another meeting. And

that transition, it's so easy if

you just sort of, if you, if you

kind of, like, launch into the

other meeting, you're still full

of what you've just been trying

to grapple with. And so there's

this whole of actually, just

physically, physically trying to

kind of calm yourself

afterwards. So go somewhere,

even if it's in the lift, just

really breathe in through your

nose and really feel your

diaphragm expanding. And just so

big breath in, and then a slow

breath out through the mouth,

and you can do that a couple of

times. And what it does, it just

frees up the body. Because we

often feel we forget, sometimes

I think that we have a body

that's giving off all sorts of

signals that is taking our head

from meeting to meeting, and so

that to actually do that, and it

can really start to calm, just

clear the brain a little bit

punctuation. It is, it is, and,

and that, I think, is, is such

an important thing, impressively

important.

I'm doing lots of

work on this, actually, trying

to get out of my head and back

into my body and just and also.

So, I mean, if people are

working from home, there's the

opportunity to go for a walk,

like 20 minutes of just physical

get it out through whatever's

just happened, walk it out. Get

it out through your body. And

that's that's not a direction I

expected this conversation to go

in, but it's so important and

and you always have your breath

as a support. It's always there.

It's got you. So whatever else

is going on,

this is the kind of the

the part of the stories is the

stories that you tell by your

behaviour is what? Because if

you go in and you're tense,

that's going to show and but

it's it, but it's also the

stories you're telling yourself,

imposter

syndrome, all

of that stuff kind of

connect really clearly that,

right? Okay, I can deal with

this. Let's breathe it out and

let's focus now on this. Often,

I think we don't give ourselves

enough chance to do that, to

allow the brain the body to kind

of connect,

and it's only a

second, isn't it? It's like it's

one minute, one minute, maybe

maximum. Yeah, exactly. I just

wanted to pick up on something

that, David, you said a minute

ago about warmth and considering

the other person, because it's

really, it's fascinating as as a

voice actor, quite often the

direction I get will be warm,

yeah, and, and actually, they

don't want me to sound warm.

They want the person I'm talking

to to feel warm. Yes, yeah, and,

and that's the and that's

exactly what you were talking

about. Like you show up and you

want them to feel like you've

considered them. You want them

to feel that that being seen.

Yeah, no, that's good. That's

just joined a few dots. For me,

it's interesting.

I mean, it's, I mean, we often.

We often boil this down. We were

talking to a client about this

yesterday. In fact, we often,

when we're working with people,

and especially on a particular

project, we we have these three

areas of presence, warmth and

power that we we, we always sort

of judge, or sort of yes, we

have a tick box, and it starts

with, as I said earlier, the

presence of, does this person

look and sounds as if they don't

want to be anywhere else except,

right? Else except right here,

right now and then. It's the

warmth. Do they look and sounds

as if they if they have taken

the other person into

consideration, and then, and

only then comes the power, which

is, do I believe their values?

Do I believe their their system

of belief? Do I believe what

they're saying to me? And I

think too often, going back to

what we said earlier about

people being time poor and sort

of having KPIs and things like

that to hit in business, we we

sort of go, I've just got to get

all my power out without

considering those two incredibly

important bits of presence, and

as you say, the warmth.

I mean, because that's

what leadership is. It's

bringing people with you. I

mean, that that's thing, isn't

it? It's and we, we. That's why

we have to think about what we

say in certain situations and

and I suppose what what we do is

we, we help people understand

the story that they're in in any

situation, and allow and and

give people the the wherewithal

to be able to decide, okay, how

the easy ways of how we're going

to tackle this. Now

it's funny, I'm

I'm about to start a project

next week with a big client, and

they're working on a massive

pitch for a piece of work. And I

can almost guarantee that I'll

walk in there on Tuesday morning

and they present their first

draft to me. It'll be something

about they're going through

their credentials and

everything. And my first job

will be saying, can please, can

you start by saying something

that you've learned about them

through all the site visits that

you've been on? Just connect,

just show that you've been

present and that you've listened

and that you've understood.

It's all about

them. It's all about them. And

that is not, yeah, well, but it

kind of is. It isn't, but it is.

That's yourself, that that is

the driving engagement, isn't

it? That's the connection,

that's the communication, and

that that kind of invisible

thread that comes from that

connection and the trust and the

warmth and and then so, so it's

a pitch that you're going to be

working on. So that is the third

part of of the the kind of the

three things I said at the

beginning, the influencing

change. Obviously, they want to

win their pitch and they want to

influence change. So they're

going to be benefiting from all

of your experience to help them

to do that and well done them

for recognising that they need a

bit of help.

You're welcome.

Thank you. Yes, our bank

manager, thanks them as well.

So what about

outside the boardroom and the

world of work? Because your DNA

framework can help people kind

of transform how they connect

with other people on a personal

level as well. It's not just

business. We're all human

beings. So can you just sort of

speak to that a little bit Well,

I think, I mean, I have

alluded to it in terms of a

toddler and Uncle Fred and Uncle

Fred, but I remember we were

doing, oh yeah, we were doing a

workshop with some economists,

and we were talking them through

the structure of the DNA. And

one of them said that that he

had two small children. And

it's, I think it was the, oh,

the NCT, was it? Was it the NCT,

or it was it was some children

organisation that they said it

in a different way, but the sort

of the format of addressing a

child was so that you can kind

of avoid the tantrum and all

that difficulty, or them feeling

frightened and things like that,

was indeed this very similar

type of idea that you connect.

You connect with them at first

with something that they

understand, and only then can

you introduce the negative thing

about that, something that they

can't can't understand might not

happen because of something. So

why don't we do this? And I

thought it was amazing, wasn't

it? Do you remember

that time as well?

We were working with that D and

I team at one of our clients,

and they were so there was a

team who were driving D and I

initiatives, right? What's dei

diversity, equity and inclusion?

Oh, right, right.

Okay, yes. So

they were a team

of relatively young people who

were they'd been basically, they

were in charge of getting the

leadership to really drive the

Diversity Equity and Inclusion.

So, massively important,

massively important. But of

course, you know, the business

leaders have a day job to do.

They've got numbers to hit, and

so it's actually quite hard to

get them to engage with the with

the concept of it. So we were

working with them on how they

engage those leadership, the

leadership, and we went back to

do a follow up with them, and

the person who was in charge of

this team said, you know, this

is this is amazing. I mean, it

really worked. It really works

with the management. But I tell

you, when it really worked even

better was last weekend when I

was trying to plan out my

wedding with my fiance.

I mean, that's a

real, really, really useful

example. Love it. I love it.

Okay, okay. Well, I mean, we

could talk for another couple of

hours, I think, and the rest. So

we'll have to stop. But people

should buy your book. Evidently,

I would love you both to plug

your brilliant book, because it

is brilliant and and I don't

usually geek out so much about

about the offerings of my

guests, but they are, you are

all brilliant. Anyway, I'm

Wittering. Please tell us about

the book app, because it's been

nominated for prizes, and it's

amazing. So go on, go, go, go,

plug. There it is. So

the most exciting

thing in on September the 10th,

we'll be going to Wembley for

the Business Book of the Year

awards, and we get to wear a

frock you get to wear, I might

get to wear, yes, and the lovely

thing is, we're nominated, if so

the business book, there are

about eight different

categories, and one of the win

winners those categories will

become business book of the

year. What we're thrilled about

is that we're in the people,

culture and management category,

which is, is fantastic because

essentially, that's what the

book is about. It's about how

you create the culture for the

people and manage those people

so that change happens. So yeah,

that's the Yeah. It hit number

one on Amazon in UK, US and

Australia, and it's up for that

award September the 10th in

Wembley. People

need to go buy

it, don't they? And you are

obviously going to win the

prize. So, um, so, yay, yay.

We'll be rooting for you. Just

be great being there.

Yeah, we'll be great. Also, it's

fascinating talking to a load of

authors. Oh, it's amazing. I

mean, that's the that's the

really exciting thing.

We went as guests

last year. And actually, yes,

Sarah Jane says being in a room

of authors

is is almost as all

their stories. It's amazing,

almost as weird as being in a

room full of actors.

Surely not. Well,

congratulations. It's, it's a

it's an amazing book. It really

is. Thank you. But before,

before we go, I'd like to know,

we know a little bit about your

backstory, but I'd like to know

about your story to come what,

what? What does your story look

like for the next five years?

And you can answer individually,

or you can do it as a couple.

It's up to you.

I'm quite enjoying

the cuddles.

It's yeah, I do, you

know, I, I'm a great believer

in, in, you know, you create

something and just watching it

grow. So I don't really have,

yeah, I obviously, I want to, I

want it to sort of spread more,

I guess, this whole idea. But

I'm more concerned really, or

I'm just hopeful that more

people really kind of opt for

this and kind of get it under

their belt. That's what I'd

really like, is there's so much.

I mean, you know, a politics at

the moment, I'm not going to go

in there. I mean, I just, yeah,

my eye, it's such a shame,

because we don't deserve it, and

we don't deserve lies and deceit

and all this sort of thing, and

different all the different

stories that are coming out,

which is, I

think this is a

great point, if

you can only sit down

and really talk and really

discuss without being completely

and utterly just one direction

all the time, so that it's just

deep, deep, deep. Do you know

it'd be quite nice. I

think it would be.

I think, I mean, you know,

obviously the future. I mean,

we'd love people to buy the

book, and we'd love to work with

more people, because that's very

nice for us personally. But I

think the point that Sarah Jane

makes is incredibly important. I

mean, as you know, Katie, I

mean, the power of story is so

strong that it can be used for

good and it can be used for ILL.

So to be actually, actually

giving people the tools whereby

they can use story ethically to

really connect and make change.

Funnily enough, I wrote an

article that was published last

week called it was interesting.

The brief was what CEOs can

learn from the boring power of

Mark Carney, who's the prime

minister of of Canada. And I, my

premise was, I don't think he's

boring at all. What I think he

is measured, he's meticulous,

and he genuinely connected with

the desire of the. The of the

Canadian people and what they

hope for for their future. And

so I think the more that we can

you know, there are certain

elements in this world at the

moment who are really clever at

telling stories, and they don't

really care whether they're true

or not. Oh yeah, and they're

working. So to be able to give

good people the equal power, to

be able to use these skills,

ethic, ethically. Yes, the last

chapter of our book is called

The only way is ethics. We Yeah,

that would be great. And to earn

some money alongside love

that and any,

any, you know, holidays desserts

you want to try anything a

little bit lighter than, you

know, saving the world with the

ethics of inspiring story.

Well, okay,

here's, here's the thing. We're

literally back from five days.

We'd had a very last minute trip

to the Netherlands. We've just

been in the Netherlands. We were

announced lovely, quite well,

but the Hague, which was a real

surprise. And we have this, we

have this pet project that may

never, ever happen, but we

always talk about it when we go

away. Is called toga travel.

Toga stands for two old gits

abroad, because what we're

really good at doing is, is, is

just sort of getting in, just

getting into the nitty gritty of

someone, and listening to the

stories of people. And our

favourite trick is we'll find

out. We'll we'll find a really

good restaurant that we go to,

and then we say to the person in

charge of it, so where do you

reckon we should go next? And

the places that we've gone just

on recommendation, because we're

interested in listening to, you

know their recommendations. Love

to do more of that. Brilliant,

brilliant,

brilliant, well, I could tell

you about the scuba diving

holiday I went on based on a

recommendation from a taxi

driver in Ireland. But

unfortunately, we don't have

time, so we'll save that for the

next one. I think. Well, David

Pullen and Sarah, Jane

McKechnie, thank you so much for

being on the podcast. Of course,

we'll make sure that all of the

ways that people can connect

with you and work with you and

buy your book, we'll put all of

that information in the show

notes, but just tell us as well.

How can people find you both?

Well, we've

got a brand new,

shiny website, www dot the story

spotters.com, which has all of

the, you know, all of the

details of how we work, as you

said, both within the

consulting, coaching and

training space, and then

LinkedIn, that's where we are.

Both of us are on LinkedIn. And

go there, at your peril, because

we like using LinkedIn quite a

lot. So you're

a breath of fresh

air on LinkedIn, for sure. Thank

you both so much. Have a lovely

rest of your day. Thank you.

Thanks. Katie, bye, bye. Wow.

What a way to kick off season

two. Wasn't that epic? Okay,

brace yourself, grab grab a pen

and paper, because here are my

key takeaways. Number one, there

are four types of story. One,

the stories we tell. Two, the

stories we listen for that help

us to connect with other people.

Three, the stories we present to

the world in our behaviour and

how we show up, and four, the

stories we tell ourselves, key

takeaway number two, don't

forget your humanity. Listen. We

all live through stories. So

it's a natural way to

communicate and connect with

other people and understand one

another. I want you to imagine

arrows connecting all of this

stuff. Story equals

communication, equals

connection, equals

understanding, and understanding

leads to trust, which enables

collaboration, and that's how we

get engagement three but in

business, we can sometimes lose

sight of that emotional journey

of connection and our humanity

and we get bogged down by the

facts, whereas the story

spotters think of the facts and

the data as the outer spokes of

a wheel with story as the

central hub, which holds it all

together and enables it to turn

four. Breathe, baby. Breathe. No

matter how busy you are, take a

moment to come back to your

body. Just breathe. Calm your

nervous system. Five leadership

is bringing people with you as a

leader. You need to understand

the story you're in, and you

need to understand the DNA of

engagement, dream, Nightmare,

action, remember, so take time

to understand your audience's

dreams and. Then gently remind

them that they'll be facing a

nightmare if they don't take the

action you want before you know

it, they'll be putting on their

own wellies. Golly, that was a

lot, but wasn't it good? And

there's so much more great stuff

to come in the podcast, in next

week's episode, a bit of

showbiz.

It was ridiculous that

this was my life. I would be

maybe going to chat to Meryl

Streep in a hotel room for a bit

about her latest film, and then

I'd be going to a recording

studio to chat to Mark Ronson or

Jay Z about their latest album,

and then maybe in the evening,

I'd go see Beyonce sing at a

kind of private like album

launch thing, and repeat that

literally every single day for

more than a decade. Natalie

Jameson,

entertainment reporter and

podcast creative tells us how

podcasting is a spectacular way

to share stories and also what

to expect if you ever meet

Daniel Craik. Essential

listening. Okay, I'm off now to

practice my story spotting

skills. I'm Katie Flamen, and

this is storytelling for

business till next time.

Goodbye. You