>> Susan Schwartz: For someone who is both passionate about horses and
bourbon, there is one position that
would be a dream to have, and our
guest has got it.
I'm, um, Susan Schwartz, your drinking companion, and
this is Lush Life podcast.
Every week, we're inspired to live life one
cocktail at a time. When
you think of horse races, there is only one
the Kentucky Derby. When you think of
cocktails at horse races, there is only one the
Mint julep. And what bourbon do you find in
that Kentucky Derby Mint julep?
Woodford Reserve.
As vice president and master distiller of Woodford
reserve bourbon, Elizabeth McCall calls
all the shots when defining the quality sensory
standard to which every batch of Woodford Reserve
must comply. What does it take to
become the third master distiller ever at
Woodford and one of the youngest distillers
in the United States? Well, I'll
let her tell you. But before that,
if you love Lush Life, we would so
appreciate your support. By signing up to our
newsletter, you can get our advice on anything
to do with home bartending, where to drink in every
major city, special recipes, and even
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Just head to alushlifemanual,
uh.substack.com
and sign up now.
Let's join Elizabeth.
Uh, well, it's so great to have you here. Thank you for being on the
show.
>> Elizabeth McCall: Thank you for having me, Susan. I'm excited.
>> Susan Schwartz: Oh, great, great. Um, now, I've already introduced you in
the intro, but why don't you tell people who you are and
what you do, and we'll get right into it.
>> Elizabeth McCall: Okay. Well, hi, Everybody. I'm Elizabeth McCall. I'm the
master distiller for Woodford Reserve. So it's a
pleasure to talk with you all and talk with you, Susan.
And let's get into things.
>> Susan Schwartz: Yeah, yeah. Now, we always go backwards.
I like to know how people got where they did.
So if you don't mind, could you tell me a little about where you grew up
and what you studied and your family, what they
did?
>> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah. So I was born in Cincinnati,
Ohio. And so Cincinnati has a
very warm place, dear place in my heart.
And so that's for those of you that don't know. I'm now in
Louisville, Kentucky, and so it's only about an hour
and a half, two hours from here, so not far.
But it is a special place. And that's where I did all my
young childhood years, and then we moved down to
Kentucky, uh, when I was, uh, in,
like, middle school, and then grew up here.
And I haven't left the state of Kentucky since,
I mean, traveled, but I've never lived anyplace else.
And I went to undergrad at the University
of Louisville and then I got my graduate
degree, a master's degree at the University of Louisville. And
it was both degrees were in psychology. So I was
fixing to be a therapist and
things took a very different turn. I heard about an
opportunity to work at Brown Forman and work in the
spirits industry using my psychology
degree. And after doing some practicum
and internships, so kind of getting my feet wet in the therapy
world. Working in beverage alcohol just seemed
a lot, like a lot less stressful.
So I took a chance at getting the job. And it was an entry level
job as a sensory technician. And the
rest is kind of history. I mean, that changed
my life. I mean, I don't know what I. I guess I'd be a
therapist right now if I didn't get the job at Brown
Forman.
>> Susan Schwartz: Well, when you were studying psychology, what kind
of things were you thinking? Oh, I want to be this kind of
psychologist or treat these kind of people.
>> Elizabeth McCall: I think I had some experience with people that
had drug addiction and that sort of thing in my personal
life. And so I thought, I think I'd be really
good at working with families and helping them
work through family
challenges. So that was my kind of
inspiration. And I just thought the
study of human beings and how we operate was always really
fascinating. And it still is fascinating to me.
But then doing the
therapy part was you take that home
with you. You know, you're driving and you're just thinking about
clients and am I going to be able to actually help
this person? And a thing about therapy
is that you don't. Your job is to kind of direct
people and not actually fix them. It's not my job
to fix them. But anyways, you just carry a lot of it.
So I just. When I heard about the job, the
opportunity to work in beverage alcohol
and just working for this is my
mother and me, uh, for a company that has great
benefits and a good pay because I had student
loans to pay off, you know, just. So it was also
that opportunity of like getting making good money
and good health care. So that was another
thing. That's not very romantic, but.
>> Susan Schwartz: No, but super important. Now I did, in doing my
research on you, I heard that you also were, uh, a
horseback rider.
>> Elizabeth McCall: Yes.
>> Susan Schwartz: Was this something that you had done as a child?
>> Elizabeth McCall: Yes, it was something that nobody, nobody in my family
was interested in horses or anything. So it's not
like I grew up with that But I
watched a TV show that was set in the 1800s, and they all
rode horses everywhere. And I thought, I want to do that. So I told
my parents that that was what I wanted to do, and they found
a place in Cincinnati for me to start.
So I just fell in love with it. I would spend. My mom would
drop me off there on a Saturday morning, and I'd
spend the whole day at the barn riding horses,
eat a bag lunch, you know, groom, clean,
tack, whatever. I love it. And I've always been
very driven person in that way, like, very
personally motivated. And. And I just. I loved
it. I loved the whole working hard. I
mean, it's like the weirdest thing. And so I've done
that since I was little. And
saying that makes me think of when I. We went on a. I went to a horse
show, and it was over Labor Day or Memorial Day weekend,
and I saw people, like, out camping where we were doing
our horse competition, and I'm like, why would you go camping for
your horse weekend? And, like, just go right here and
you just have to do so much. And then my friend was
like, well, we're in a horse show, working really, really
hard, like, waking up, you know, like
5:00am to go and take care of our horses, and we're working
our butts off the whole weekend for our Memorial Day,
like, what? You know, and so it was just funny that I was
like, yeah, I guess I don't know how to relax. And
my husband would tell you that I'm a
constant working person, but horses are
amazing. I have a daughter and a son and my
daughter showing interest in horses
now, and I really hope that that
sticks. So I'm trying to just nurture
it, not push.
>> Susan Schwartz: Well, how fantastic that you ended up at the brand
that makes the official Amy
Julep for the Kentucky Derby.
How crazy is that?
>> Elizabeth McCall: I know. Well, and that's part of, like, this
is just such a dream. Because I remember when I joined Brown
Forman in 2009 and we. I went on this
orientation and went to Woodford Reserve, and you drive
through some of the most iconic horse farms in
Kentucky, and it was like this. This brand is
amazing. It's. It's a dream. And then now I get to work on
it, and it's just. It's. Everything kind of
fell into place.
>> Susan Schwartz: Yeah. If you're going to love horses any in any state,
Kentucky is the state. I have been there. And
the horse farms are insane. They're just
glorious. The landscape is gorgeous. So how
funny. Now, I also know that your mother worked at
Seagram's. Right. And I was
just wondering, do you think any of her experiences
rubbed off on you in a positive way for you
to enter into the business or even in a
negative way, really? You know, what did she
think and did you think while you were entering it
of what it could be?
>> Elizabeth McCall: It's interesting because my mom would always talk about her job at
Seagram's because she had left that
role by the time I was born. And so
there wasn't an overlap. But when I was
getting my job here, she'd be like, oh, yeah. And I worked at Seagram,
but it was, it didn't influence or
take away. But now when we talk about.
Comes out so much more because she'll bring up like, oh, I was the
only woman. I mean, my mom worked there in
the late 70s and
she was the manager of a
union of all men,
basically working the bottling line. And she was in
quality control as well. So she had a couple different
roles, but always in bottling. And.
And the reason why she left was because she was. They
didn't have a maternity policy and my mom
was just so overwhelmed and they didn't have a way to, you know, now
we've got flexibility and people are more
understanding about, oh, you've got kids. But back then it
wasn't a thing. So my mom didn't go back to work
after having my brother. But. But she'll talk about that.
Just. But my mom's a very strong
willed person, so I think that rubbed off on me. And
it wasn't this thing like, oh, poor me, I was the only woman.
She's like, well, I just told them that this is how we're doing
it. And she. But that's
Rosemary O'Neill and she's sassy.
So I think that's what I
got from my mom. And it was just this. Instilled
that belief in me, like, you'll never. You need to
support yourself. Don't ever let be like
completely reliant on somebody. I mean, my parents are still
married and they're very much, you know,
she's. It's not like she's like this single woman, but it's like
it just was really important. That was something she always said to me
was like, you have value and you're a
smart person.
>> Susan Schwartz: So, yeah, I guess I got that as well. My mom always said, you know,
never rely on anyone. And she and my dad were married for 65
years, so. And she didn't really work. So you
took this job and you said there was, I thought, a
psychology kind of bit to
it. What was it?
>> Elizabeth McCall: So when you work in the sensory lab, you are
reading or you're. You're testing
human response to a stimulus. And our
stimulus happens to be beverage alcohol. And so
we're looking at. We are in our sensory lab,
we're using human beings as our instrument to
judge on quality defects on
just anything that shelf life testing, like
how long can something sit on a shelf before it changes
in flavor profile. So we do all that testing in
house at Brown Forman. And that's what I did.
Setting up those tests and then being able to interpret the
results, do the statistical analysis,
all of that. Because I learned all that in my psychology
degree. Because you would do. I had to learn
experimentation using human beings. So it
all fits really well. It's not the
traditional way of thinking about psychology, but
it's. We use it. And then I think you use.
Psycho psychology is a great degree because you use psychology
in Interact in the business world all the time or just
in your everyday life, honestly.
>> Susan Schwartz: Yeah, I've interviewed some bartenders who were, uh, who study
neuroscience and um. It is. Yeah, same kind of thing. And
they're like. We use it all the time when we're creating drinks
and looking how people are drinking and what they're drinking and how
they're drinking.
>> Elizabeth McCall: There's so much more to it than just
what you see on the surface, right?
>> Susan Schwartz: Absolutely. Now, how long did it take
you? I'm, uh, assuming you're in love with the drinks industry, you're still
in the drinks industry, but how long do you think it took
you to, you know, fall under its
charm?
>> Elizabeth McCall: It was, I would say we. It was a quick love affair.
>> Susan Schwartz: Hopefully still going on.
>> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah, and it's still going on. Especially when I entered.
So 2009 is when
bourbon was really starting to take off
and. And I had a lot of friends that had a lot of peaked
interest in it and. And that encouraged my
interest in wanting to really fully
understand it. And uh, it was kind of
learning how to appreciate it in the lab
was. So I think like within the
first year or two I was hooked on.
On this and. And now with Woodford,
it's. It is such a wonder. It's a wonderful
relationship that I have and I'm very
protective of the brand. And it's like.
It's a weird, weird way to think about it, but it is.
You do have this sense of ownership and there's like a weird.
Like the liquid I'm responsible for even
Though I know we have. I work for a major corporation. There are
a lot of people looking at Woodford to make sure
that it's okay. But at the end of the day like I'm
the person who will be. I look at like Chris Morris,
our master still emeritus. I mean he was a Master Stiller
since 2003 and now I am
that. So for 20 years he owned it and
was the, you know, the person to maintain the
quality and integrity. And now that's my job because other people are going
to come and go, managers are going to come and go. I'm the
constant. And so it's like being the
parent or something.
>> Susan Schwartz: It's your baby. I was going to say really it is.
>> Elizabeth McCall: I guess it's. Yeah, that's what I'm trying. It's like your baby and you just
don't want people to abuse it or do anything
weird. So it's a, um, I love
it and I gotta take care of it.
>> Susan Schwartz: Now just back to your first encounters with
alcohol in your business when you were
part of the sensory team. Was it all different
spirit because Brown Forman has a lot of different spirits. Was it
different, Was it all different spirits or was your
first encounter with bourbon?
>> Elizabeth McCall: I worked on it from formulated products. I had to
make Southern Comfort in the lab,
make all the base for it and test all the flavors. So
I mean there was so much that I had to. So I
touched everything from tequilas, our
whiskeys, our wines formulated,
I mean everything. So it is,
it exposed me to a lot and then
learning how to make all of it was really
fascinating and then just how everything that
goes into it and uh, being on the quality side, I
think I developed a really strong passion for
understanding what goes into making
all of the products and in a really strong
appreciation for that. So that was something
that came out in me in this role. And the role was like
being very methodical and wanting things to be
standardized so that we could make sure we were testing things
correctly. So that was. I really leaned into it and
found this strong passion for quality in that role.
>> Susan Schwartz: And so when did you first start working
solely with bourbon then? How long had you been at the company?
>> Elizabeth McCall: I had been. So it was 2016 when
I was moved to work out um, at
ah, Woodford Reserve. I moved out to the distillery, started working
in production out there as quality control
specialist out there. And so that was 2016.
So yeah, seven years.
>> Susan Schwartz: Yeah. And so you were working in all different spirits before that
and then solely then just Woodford
Reserve. Did you feel Confident to go
into one spirit. Was it the
direction you wanted to take? Had you been drinking?
Sorry, now I'm gonna ask a thousand questions at once.
Had you been drinking bourbon? Is this something that you
liked and you thought, I want this to be the, uh, next
step in my career is gonna be bourbon because I love it,
or was it just happenstance that it was, you
know, the world came up and you said, oh, I'm gonna take this one.
>> Elizabeth McCall: It was more happenstance, I
think, but it also was me
driving it. I mean, I was definitely driving that
desire to want
to interact with the brands and interact
with consumers on our products because they were. In my
role as a sensory scientist, we did a lot of things
where we would work with our product developers
and do showcase, we call it. We would have the
lab open and we would showcase the different products that
they had developed and talk about them. And when we would do
that, I realized how much I loved talking about
the flavor profile and trying to not, I mean, I
guess, like, sell people on it, but just kind of. It just
fed something in my soul. Like, I love
that part of talking to people and that
ambassadorship. Like when we would have
days where we bring, like, the kids come into
work day, and it was like somebody had to present to all the
kids, and I was like, oh, I'll do it, because I love that side
of it. So I started realizing I had this interest
in doing more of the marketing side, and
so I started expressing that. And so then,
uh, and I mentioned that because as part of me
moving out to work specifically with Woodford
Reserve, I was master
taster as well. So I had started training with Chris
Morris to be master taster. And in that role, it was
tasting Woodford Reserve and being intimately
connected with that brand. From knowing the
brand story to the liquid development, and then starting
to peek behind the curtain with Chris Morris, the master
distiller, and doing those presentations and
speaking on behalf of the brand and doing that work. So
that's when I was like, oh, I really love doing
this. I am energized by people by talking about
seeing people's excitement for Woodford. And
so that all was going on. And then the other thing, with those seven
years of working, uh, with all the different
products, and I was also working with all of our
global production facilities. So I was going out to
all of our global production facilities, learning how they work.
So I was at Jack Daniels, I was at Canadian Mist, I went to
Chambord and I went all over, and it gave
me such a huge Appreciation for how things
are made and the connections
you need when you do projects in
production and when you have to ask people to do something
that might be outside of their box or outside their
comfort zone. Working at Woodford in that
smaller role, people see you climb the
ladder and know that you're part of their team. And
so I fully understand and appreciate what I
ask of my team to do. And I always
consider that when we're doing a master's
collection. So I. Those seven years are so
valuable to me. I'm so lucky I got to do
that.
>> Susan Schwartz: Yeah, I'm sure. Now, you said that you were a master
taster. What does that involve?
I mean, is that something that you learn or
do you just have it and you find that
you have it? You know, the tongue. I know when I took the
wset and they're like, what does this taste like? I was like, well,
you know, they'll give me a bourbon or would I say rum? And I'd be like,
it tastes like rum. You know that,
you know, does. Is it something that you feel like you
developed or you naturally had?
>> Elizabeth McCall: I think it's a combination. It's something I
naturally had. Uh, and then you nurture it and
learn to really, really develop it. And that
was what happened. Part of my role in the
sensory role. We started the quality descriptive
analysis panel, so I was starting
that work away from even doing
stuff with Chris Morris. So I was already starting to
figure out, okay, how do we measure
whiskey in a qualitative way?
Uh, but in a way that we can all build a consensus around
the flavor profile. So you could look at a whiskey. You could look at a
new whiskey and judge the spiciness of that
distillate versus one that's a fully
mature whiskey. And. And it's all on the same scale,
and it's very challenging to do that. But
we worked with some sensory groups on that, so that really
got my palate tuned in. But I still
have to do it. I mean, I still have. I have aroma jars here that I'll
open up and just refresh my brain. Because
you just need that to set your reference point again,
like, what does clove smell like
again? And so that was something that I really developed.
And then as a master taster, got to really
figure out how I apply that to the
specific role with Woodford Reserve.
>> Susan Schwartz: Yeah, I saw that you were on the committee to do that, how to
properly nose and taste things.
How did you come to consensus or did you
even.
>> Elizabeth McCall: Well, we would. Because we. The way that we do. We had,
um, panelists that we trained and we started with. You
create references. So basically. And it
converted over to, we started with like, here's
a really fruity Scotch and this is the one. This is
if something's going to be dried, dark fruit. And this is the. On a
scale of 1 to 10, this is a
10. Then everything else, how do you, how
does it compare to that? And so you, you
have to have these anchoring references. And then we converted
it over to Jack Daniel so it was like, Jack
is your standard. And so maybe on the fruity
scale, you know, it's at a seven and
then on the brown, uh,
sugar scale, it's, it's a little bit
more like, uh, a five or you know, and you just kind of
work it that way. And then smoke, it's zero. And
then you have a reference of maybe ard bag is your, this
is smoke. And if it's going to exist in whiskey, this is
what it looks like. And so that's where you have your anchors
and that becomes your reference. That if you're going to give
something this rating, it has to
compare to your reference point. And
so then that kind of becomes how you standardize.
And afterwards we would kind of talk like if somebody was a major
outlier, they would be, you know, we would have
to maybe talk to them like, okay, why did you choose that? And then
they could get kicked out of the panel or something.
And that's, that's what. They're an instrument. So
you would, with an instrument you'd take out your
outliers.
>> Susan Schwartz: Yeah, exactly. Uh, now coming to Woodford
Reserve had, what was the first role that you had there?
>> Elizabeth McCall: I was a senior quality
control specialist. I worked in the
processing dumping area, so where we would
dump all of our batches. So I was up in that part of
the distillery.
>> Susan Schwartz: And what was it like working, uh, your initial thoughts
about working with just one brand?
>> Elizabeth McCall: Oh, I loved it. I mean it was, there's so much
pride because I, I had spent a lot of time out
at Woodford already and developed really close relationships
with everyone there. And so then getting to work
out there and be boots on the ground and just
wear, you know, steel toed boots every day and
you're just. I just, I love that work
and I love when I do get to go out to the distillery and
just be with the distillery team and not
be master distiller, but just be
myself. And I mean they all, I don't like think of me that
way, but they all knew me before I became in
this role and so it's just nice to
talk and talk about whiskey and
what we can do to improve it. I don't know, it's just there's great
people that work at uh, Woodford. It's like the dream
team out there.
>> Susan Schwartz: And to be only the third master
distiller ever is quite a
thing. You know, tell me a little bit about working with Chris
and you know, progression towards being
assistant master distiller and then him handing the
reins over to you. I know
it's, you know, it's a lifetime of knowledge, but
hand pick the things that maybe he taught you or
that you figured out on your own.
>> Elizabeth McCall: So he, he uh, taught me
almost everything I know. I always
joke that he's like my bourbon dad. I mean he
is somebody that's just extremely special to
me and that I can go to him
with any issue. There's a huge level
of comfort and uh, trust between
he and I and that developed over time. Um,
because you know, it went from being this is Chris
Morris and putting him up on this pedestal of
oh my God, he's this legend. And I am going to
go like ride around with him and learn from him how cool and not even
knowing what do I say and how do I act. But he and
I meshed right away. There
was no.
Just such a nice level of comfort. And
he shares. I remember my first trip with
him going down to Nashville and it
was like being on a
narrated like bus
ride or something. Like every, every stop he's like, do you know
what happened here? And there's this. And he has historical
information and little bits of trivia about everything.
And so he's just a fascinating person to be
around. And so when. And now it's like
he is family at this point. And so it's funny
because now I can be like, Chris, what are you doing? Or I mean it's
the way that I talk to him is family member
and it's, it's shifted from being this person. I'm like, oh, I don't even
know how to talk to you to now we just can
totally shoot the breeze. But he taught me
so much. A lot of it was like, I mean he
really taught me my presentation skills of life,
how to, how do you
act at an event, like going up
and introducing yourself to people and how to
present at a dinner and so all those sorts of
things and then how to handle tough
situations in the distillery or things that are
going on with the brand and where you have to kind of put like
when quality is at stake and you have to really fight for it.
And he's taught me, uh, how to handle those
situations. He taught me how to innovate and
how to maintain brand integrity. And that is something,
I mean, he's teaching that to all the
teams at this point, really, because I think something
that's really important and I don't know, he's been around so
long, but understanding your brand's
identity and what your brand stands for
and not going all over
the place just because it's what's cool, it's like, stay true to
your values. And that's kind of important about, I guess, you
as a person in life. And so you always would talk about Woodford
Reserve as like a human, as like
a person in a way. And so it was really
important to make sure that we maintain Woodford
and what is. So we can't just. We're not just going to do
some sugary thing with
it or like a liqueur or something.
It's like, what do we stand for? And so
that's been something that's been huge. And it's how. It's what
drives all the innovation. It's like we're going to do things in a
natural way using, um, grains that have been
toasted instead of using flavors, and we're going to use different wine
barrels and things that are premium to work with this brand
to do innovation. And then another thing that he taught
me that I think is so important, especially
because he's a very humble person. And when
you're in a role where it is a big role, I mean,
somebody said to me yesterday, they're like, so you're. You're
kind of famous, aren't you? And I was like, uh,
no, that's. That's a stretch. I can walk
anywhere and nobody knows who I am. That's not famous.
But. But everything I have gotten to
do in my career, the amazing
trips, the amazing events I've gotten to do, the
derby, it's all because of Woodford
Reserve. It's not. I mean, yes,
I do a lot. I'm good at my job,
but I wouldn't be doing these things if it wasn't for
Woodford. And Woodford is why I get to
do all these amazing things in my job. And I never lose
sight of that, that I'm here to represent
Woodford. I'm here to speak on Woodford's behalf because
Woodford can't speak for itself. So that is just
something that. And it keeps you humble and it keeps
you grounded in trying to just
always remember to put Woodford first when you're out
doing your job.
>> Susan Schwartz: It's not about me, but I'm sure when you're
stepping into a role like this, you also can't help
but think, ooh, what can I do now?
You know, I think that's just human nature. And
especially because you have the Masters collection, the Distillers
collection, all of these things, other than,
you know, preserving the liquid. Obviously goes without
saying. Now that you've been in this role almost two
years, were there things that
you had wanted to do when
you were assistant master distiller and you got to finally
do them or you. Or you even thought of them
when you became the Masters Distiller?
>> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah, we are doing some. Switching some things
up. So, you know, I mean, I can't reveal too
much, but I've always wanted to play
with proof and maybe step outside of doing things
just at 90.4 proof. So I
think be looking for that to come from
me. And it's not about just doing a high
proof, just to do a high proof, but to
display the whiskey in the way that is
the best that I really enjoy and
that I just feel like sometimes I open up barrels and I
taste them and it's a higher proof, and I'm like, oh, I can't
bear to cut it all the way down to
90.4. I love my 90.4
Woodford Reserve bourbon. I drink it all the time.
But sometimes when something's really special,
there's just a better presentation at
a higher proof. So, um, so you'll see that
and then even age and really trying to
play in that space. And, um, so that'll be an
interesting thing too, because we've never done an age
statement. And so. So those are things that I think
will be the biggest difference. But other than that,
when it comes to, I mean, we. We just filled some
cabernet barrels and I love cabernet red
wine, so we'll do that and see how that
does. And so it's just kind of a fun playing in that space.
And I think it's stuff that Chris will be proud.
He's proud to see me do it. And it's stuff that he never really
did.
>> Susan Schwartz: And so now, you know, we didn't.
We didn't really talk about your relationship with bourbon. Did
you drink bourbon when you were younger? Is it something that, you know,
maybe your dad drank or your mom drank?
>> Elizabeth McCall: So it was something that my dad would come
home every night and have his, his one
bourbon. I mean, that's. And he still is that way. My
mom's a beer drinker, so she, she puts ice
in her beer. But my dad always drank bourbon when he
would get home. And so. But when I was
younger, I just, I didn't, I didn't
know how to drink it. I mean, I
sounds so weird to say now, but I felt
like you, I couldn't fathom the idea of drinking a
high proof spirit, anything neat or on
the rocks. Like I always, I had to mix it. I just was like you,
you don't drink that straight. Gross. So
it took me a while to appreciate how
to drink bourbon, just
enjoy it for what it is. And I mean, I do love
cocktails. I'm not really embarrassed by it. I find it funny. I mean,
when I went out, it was the early
2000s and you know, people were drinking
vodka and vodka soda was huge. So I would have my
vodka soda and lime and go about my
business.
>> Susan Schwartz: There's nothing wrong with that.
>> Elizabeth McCall: That's what I was drinking. And then when I started at Brown Forman,
that's when I learned how to
drink bourbon and appreciate it. And
now, I mean, if I'm doing, I just pour it over
the rocks. I am a bourbon on the rocks kind of girl.
I don't really drink it neat unless I'm tasting something
that's a little special, a little more elevated. But I
regular bourbon, I'm bourbon on the rocks.
And because I just love it and it tastes so good and when
I go place, I mean it really, I just, I don't know
what I'm either red wine or bourbon. That's
it.
>> Susan Schwartz: You know, I'm not saying this because I have you on the other side of
the microphone, but yes, um, bourbon. Bourbon is
my favorite spirit as well. I was interviewing a brand
ambassador once and she. A brand ambassador for a
bourbon. And she said, a bourbon is my
husband and tequila is my lover.
And I love that because those are actually my two favorite
sweets. Yes. And, um, but I'm an old fashioned
girl. I like it with a little bit of the sugar.
>> Elizabeth McCall: I love old fashioned, but it's really. I like
when somebody else is making me a cocktail
and mint juleps.
>> Susan Schwartz: Oh, me too. Me too as well. Now, I also
read that, you know, you said that Chris
Morris was such a historian and the
things that you loved were delving into
flavor and also sustainability. And I
was wondering if you've gotten to do that in your new role.
>> Elizabeth McCall: Yes. So I've been really, uh, heavily
involved with the Kentucky Rye project and
bringing back rye, uh, for commercial
use to Kentucky because rye doesn't grow well
in Kentucky on any large scale. People do it on a smaller
scale, uh, but on a large scale it's very
challenging. So and, and it's a big
sustainability play because once you
harvest corn you can put the rye, plant
it and cover as a winter cover crop.
And it does wonders for your soil. It
stabilizes the topsoil so you don't see as much
uh, soil runoff into your stream. So it cleans up your
waterways and then it sequesters carbon from
the atmosphere and draws it down into the soil.
So it actually fertilizes the soil as well. So it
has so many benefits as a cover
crop. So that's one piece of
it. But then if you can take it and have it go to
seed and actually harvest the rye, seed and
have that and then sell it, then it
becomes more than just a cover crop. It's now
has an uh, economic uh, component to it as
well. So that's been a project that I've been
working on myself with Woodford
Reserve and then the University of Kentucky. And so
there's uh, several people involved in it and it's
just the farmers really. We've got four
dedicated farmers to doing all
the dirty work of the data research
and working with are um, to
learn how to, when do you plant, when's the best
time to plant and all that. So there's so many different
facets to work. But that's uh, it's a five year project and
we've already completed year one and we're on year
two and we're about to meet in a couple weeks to kind
of gear up for this next harvest
and see how things are going. So it's just really fascinating.
I've learned a lot about farming. It just gives you such
a great appreciation for all the work that goes
into that.
>> Susan Schwartz: And have you been able to use that rye in your rye?
>> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah, so we've been using Kentucky grown rye because this
is like phase two of uh, this Kentucky Rye
project. And so we've been for the past five
years once a year using Kentucky
grown rye in our uh, Woodford
whiskey. Only a small quantity because there's not a lot of
it but uh, so that's been really fun to be a part of
that project.
>> Susan Schwartz: And did you find that it, it changed like
the taste was different from before when you were
using a different states rye?
>> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah, it's slightly more floral
and fruity than the standard plump Rye, which is just
a little more grassy. So that we've seen, and that's just
in the new make, distillate, and then it
kind of fades out as it gets mature. With the
barrel influence, you don't see all those subtle differences, but
it's hard to say. I mean, that was just one year's crop,
so, you know, we'll see. We've got lots of years to start
comparing. And so we're doing all that flavor research
as part of this study.
>> Susan Schwartz: And I wonder if the corn will then have a
different flavor.
>> Elizabeth McCall: Well, uh, we haven't noticed.
>> Susan Schwartz: I know nothing about farming though, so I have no idea.
>> Elizabeth McCall: We haven't noticed anything with flavor but the yield. So
just that you see a greater growth rate
of your corn. Our farmers are seeing that because the soil's
healthier.
>> Susan Schwartz: And you also, of course, make so wheat,
malt, rye and corn bourbon.
How have you seen them grow? Have you seen people really respond to
them?
>> Elizabeth McCall: Yes, but they're so small that
our rye whiskey is a fantastic rye
whiskey. I, I think the flavor is
phenomenal on it. Uh, but it's. We don't have
the facility capacity to make
a ton of it, so it's always going to be a little smaller.
And then our wheat and malt, they're
beautiful liquids, but I just think that they're so
limited. I mean, they're always out. They're not something
that we're one time of year release. But, um,
they're just so small that people don't really know about them.
And so I think when we get more people tasting
them, that'll kind of the interest will grow. But it's.
They're always going to be really small expressions of
Woodford.
>> Susan Schwartz: And I have a list here of the past
Distiller series expressions. There's a lot
there, tons. What. Which ones are you still
making or you are, you know, were kind of your favorites
that you, you loved.
>> Elizabeth McCall: So with Masters collection, it's a one and
done, so we don't repeat them. Uh, but
we're kind of toying with the idea of do
we bring back ones that people just were
extremely popular? Uh, that I loved because
I do. There's a few of them that I'm like, they were just so good. Like, I
loved our Pinot finish. The Chardonnay finish
is one of. It's Chris Morse's favorite Masters collection.
And so it's like, we should bring it back also.
>> Susan Schwartz: You describe, you described one in a different podcast
about the heavy toast. I even wrote it down. Dessert
Bourbon.
>> Elizabeth McCall: Oh, our. Um, Is it the double double
or the.
>> Susan Schwartz: Yes, I think it was that. And you. Oh, my God, that sounded so good. I
was like, is there any left?
>> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah, well, double double. We actually are
just. We just released it nationally in the
US So it used to be just something we would only have for.
Available in the state of Kentucky, and now it's
available in USA and Canada.
Um, so we're really, really excited that people are
getting their hands on that and people are pumped
about that because it is. It is delicious.
>> Susan Schwartz: Yes. When I get home, I may have my mom order one
just. Just to make sure we have. We have one because the way
you described it sounded so good. And you know, I love
a bourbon both before dinner and after
dinner. So to have something that you call a dessert,
bourbon just has to be good. Just has to be great.
Now, the Distiller series. So,
um, you talked about the master collection. The Distiller
series. How is that that different from
the master collection? Just for people who might not know.
>> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah. So the distillery series is one that we only
release in the state of Kentucky.
And, uh, so it's only released there and predominantly
at our home place. And it is
small runs that we don't have the ability to scale
up to a, um, like a master's
collection level. And they're really meant to be just
nice offerings for. Thank you for coming to visit us.
And here's an opportunity to get
something unique you can't get anywhere else.
>> Susan Schwartz: That is such a reason to hear that, everyone, that it's a reason to
go visit Kentucky, man. Yes.
Uh, it's the stuff that you can't get anywhere else.
So also I was wondering, you know, what
changes have you seen since you've been there, since you've
been there for a while?
>> Elizabeth McCall: A lot, I'm sure. A
lot. Well, we've doubled capacity at
our distillery. So we've got. We went from three
pot stills to now we have six pot stills. We have
16 fermenters. So we've
exploded immensely. So not only have
we grown physically in the. The amount
of, uh, equipment we have, but then
the time like when I first started going out to
Woodford, we bottled twice a week.
And then now, then we got to a
point where we were bottling 24, seven across
three shifts. And now we've been able to rejig
it. We send some of our product to our
Louisville campus to be bottled. And, um, so that has
helped alleviate some of that. But now, I mean, it's
just crazy how we're we're five days a
week, two shifts, bottling constantly.
Just a huge team of people. I mean,
it's just. It used to be such a sleepy
place out at Woodford, and now it is not
so much. We're always going and going.
>> Susan Schwartz: It is incredible. I mean, I do a cocktail tour and
when I talk about how things have changed, it's really
in the past, not even 20
years. And, you know,
uh, the love of Bourbon around
the world now is just insane. I mean, it's
incredible that this liquid has
really. People have fallen in love with it again
after the vodka tonic years, you
know, it's really incredible. And to hear that
you just bottled twice, twice a week, even a
few years ago, really is insane.
>> Elizabeth McCall: I know.
>> Susan Schwartz: I, uh, never would have thought that. Especially such a popular brand as
Woodford Reserve.
>> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah, I mean, that was probably when I. That was
gonna. That was probably around 2010, 11.
It was like that. And now
it's just taken out. I mean, it's just to see, like our bottling
line, how it has changed. I mean, it went from
being something that you bring over a few cases and
people would take the bottles out and put them on the line themselves to
now we have like an un, you know, depalatizer
and, you know, an uncaser
that's all automated. It's just crazy to see how
much it's all changed. And, um, it's like
Frankenstein, our little bottling line.
>> Susan Schwartz: I want to just bring down the bottle for a sec
because I always think it's fun for people to look at,
uh, the bottle, especially if they're. If they're looking at the video. So guys, look at
the video on YouTube and I heard that
you have been practicing. You practice your
signature.
>> Elizabeth McCall: I did.
>> Susan Schwartz: So what can you just tell people what they find
when they, when they read the label? The label.
>> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah. So we've got the, yeah, the batch
number on there and the percent ABV and
batch number. And you've got the, like, our
signatures on there. So you've got Chris Morris's signature.
And my signature is slowly rolling out to other
bottles. And so you'll see Elizabeth McCall on
there.
>> Susan Schwartz: So the next bottle I have will be yours.
>> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah, yeah. Well, uh, yeah, I know my.
It's slowly making its way out there, but yeah, when I was
practicing my signature for that, I was like, I've got to get
this right and make sure it looks good. So I went to.
I did a bunch of them on white paper and then
took my signature to my colleagues
that work in the Sensory lab. And they're the most
honest people that I work. Like,
they know me from when I was
nobody. So it's like they've been with me the whole
journey. And so they're good at being very critical,
and I love that. And so I went and I was like, okay, which
one do you all like? And they picked and criticized
everything. And so then that. That was how I picked
which one. Which one was the best?
>> Susan Schwartz: Well, see you. It's kind of. You came full circle because you went back
to the sensory lab, right?
>> Elizabeth McCall: Oh, yeah. They're my people, so I.
I always go back to them.
>> Susan Schwartz: Well, this has been really, really fabulous. It's been great
talking to you about your journey to
Master Distiller.
>> Elizabeth McCall: Thank you. This was a fun interview. I appreciate it
because you said, uh, I've done a lot of interviews. And so this
one was really enjoyable. Thank you.
>> Susan Schwartz: Thank you for spending the time with me.
>> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah. Thank you, Susan. This was wonderful.
>> Susan Schwartz: I want to thank Elizabeth for joining me on the program.
And thank you so much to Woodford Reserve for sponsoring
the transcription for the hearing impaired.
Elizabeth's choice for cocktail of the week is a
Kentucky cocktail through and through. So even
if you think you know how to make it, try it again
the Woodford Reserve way.
Our cocktail of the week is the Woodford
Reserve Old Fashioned. You'll need
Woodford Reserve bourbon, of course,
Demerara sugar syrup, Angostura
bitters, a large ice cube and
an orange peel. The simplest way to make
sugar syrup, in my opinion, is to get a teacup.
Add ah, one tablespoon of sugar, then one tablespoon of
boiling water and stir until dissolved.
It's so easy. Pour 2 ounces of
that bourbon into your favorite old Fashioned glass, of
course. Then add half an ounce of
Demerar simple syrup and three dashes of
Angostura bitters. Add your
gorgeous ice cube and then stir for at
least 10 seconds. Then
express that orange peel over the cocktail and drop
it right in. You'll find this
recipe in all the Cocktails of the
week@alushlifemanual.com plus
links to most of the ingredients.
Heading to Philadelphia, where I'll finally meet my
producer face to face for the first time
ever. How is that possible
if you live for Lush Life? Make sure you head out to the bars
you love and order a drink.
Theme music for Lush Life is by Steven Shapiro and
used with permission. And Lush Life
is always and will be forever, produced by Evoterra and
Simpler Media Productions. Yes, that Evo
Terra I have never met him face to face
only online. Which leaves
me to say the wise words of Oscar Wilde. All things in
moderation, including moderation. And always
drink responsibly.
Next time we meet one of the best
bartenders in London. Until
then, bottoms, um, up.
>> Elizabeth McCall: T.