>> Susan Schwartz: For someone who is both passionate about horses and

bourbon, there is one position that

would be a dream to have, and our

guest has got it.

I'm, um, Susan Schwartz, your drinking companion, and

this is Lush Life podcast.

Every week, we're inspired to live life one

cocktail at a time. When

you think of horse races, there is only one

the Kentucky Derby. When you think of

cocktails at horse races, there is only one the

Mint julep. And what bourbon do you find in

that Kentucky Derby Mint julep?

Woodford Reserve.

As vice president and master distiller of Woodford

reserve bourbon, Elizabeth McCall calls

all the shots when defining the quality sensory

standard to which every batch of Woodford Reserve

must comply. What does it take to

become the third master distiller ever at

Woodford and one of the youngest distillers

in the United States? Well, I'll

let her tell you. But before that,

if you love Lush Life, we would so

appreciate your support. By signing up to our

newsletter, you can get our advice on anything

to do with home bartending, where to drink in every

major city, special recipes, and even

your very own Lush Life mug.

Just head to alushlifemanual,

uh.substack.com

and sign up now.

Let's join Elizabeth.

Uh, well, it's so great to have you here. Thank you for being on the

show.

>> Elizabeth McCall: Thank you for having me, Susan. I'm excited.

>> Susan Schwartz: Oh, great, great. Um, now, I've already introduced you in

the intro, but why don't you tell people who you are and

what you do, and we'll get right into it.

>> Elizabeth McCall: Okay. Well, hi, Everybody. I'm Elizabeth McCall. I'm the

master distiller for Woodford Reserve. So it's a

pleasure to talk with you all and talk with you, Susan.

And let's get into things.

>> Susan Schwartz: Yeah, yeah. Now, we always go backwards.

I like to know how people got where they did.

So if you don't mind, could you tell me a little about where you grew up

and what you studied and your family, what they

did?

>> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah. So I was born in Cincinnati,

Ohio. And so Cincinnati has a

very warm place, dear place in my heart.

And so that's for those of you that don't know. I'm now in

Louisville, Kentucky, and so it's only about an hour

and a half, two hours from here, so not far.

But it is a special place. And that's where I did all my

young childhood years, and then we moved down to

Kentucky, uh, when I was, uh, in,

like, middle school, and then grew up here.

And I haven't left the state of Kentucky since,

I mean, traveled, but I've never lived anyplace else.

And I went to undergrad at the University

of Louisville and then I got my graduate

degree, a master's degree at the University of Louisville. And

it was both degrees were in psychology. So I was

fixing to be a therapist and

things took a very different turn. I heard about an

opportunity to work at Brown Forman and work in the

spirits industry using my psychology

degree. And after doing some practicum

and internships, so kind of getting my feet wet in the therapy

world. Working in beverage alcohol just seemed

a lot, like a lot less stressful.

So I took a chance at getting the job. And it was an entry level

job as a sensory technician. And the

rest is kind of history. I mean, that changed

my life. I mean, I don't know what I. I guess I'd be a

therapist right now if I didn't get the job at Brown

Forman.

>> Susan Schwartz: Well, when you were studying psychology, what kind

of things were you thinking? Oh, I want to be this kind of

psychologist or treat these kind of people.

>> Elizabeth McCall: I think I had some experience with people that

had drug addiction and that sort of thing in my personal

life. And so I thought, I think I'd be really

good at working with families and helping them

work through family

challenges. So that was my kind of

inspiration. And I just thought the

study of human beings and how we operate was always really

fascinating. And it still is fascinating to me.

But then doing the

therapy part was you take that home

with you. You know, you're driving and you're just thinking about

clients and am I going to be able to actually help

this person? And a thing about therapy

is that you don't. Your job is to kind of direct

people and not actually fix them. It's not my job

to fix them. But anyways, you just carry a lot of it.

So I just. When I heard about the job, the

opportunity to work in beverage alcohol

and just working for this is my

mother and me, uh, for a company that has great

benefits and a good pay because I had student

loans to pay off, you know, just. So it was also

that opportunity of like getting making good money

and good health care. So that was another

thing. That's not very romantic, but.

>> Susan Schwartz: No, but super important. Now I did, in doing my

research on you, I heard that you also were, uh, a

horseback rider.

>> Elizabeth McCall: Yes.

>> Susan Schwartz: Was this something that you had done as a child?

>> Elizabeth McCall: Yes, it was something that nobody, nobody in my family

was interested in horses or anything. So it's not

like I grew up with that But I

watched a TV show that was set in the 1800s, and they all

rode horses everywhere. And I thought, I want to do that. So I told

my parents that that was what I wanted to do, and they found

a place in Cincinnati for me to start.

So I just fell in love with it. I would spend. My mom would

drop me off there on a Saturday morning, and I'd

spend the whole day at the barn riding horses,

eat a bag lunch, you know, groom, clean,

tack, whatever. I love it. And I've always been

very driven person in that way, like, very

personally motivated. And. And I just. I loved

it. I loved the whole working hard. I

mean, it's like the weirdest thing. And so I've done

that since I was little. And

saying that makes me think of when I. We went on a. I went to a horse

show, and it was over Labor Day or Memorial Day weekend,

and I saw people, like, out camping where we were doing

our horse competition, and I'm like, why would you go camping for

your horse weekend? And, like, just go right here and

you just have to do so much. And then my friend was

like, well, we're in a horse show, working really, really

hard, like, waking up, you know, like

5:00am to go and take care of our horses, and we're working

our butts off the whole weekend for our Memorial Day,

like, what? You know, and so it was just funny that I was

like, yeah, I guess I don't know how to relax. And

my husband would tell you that I'm a

constant working person, but horses are

amazing. I have a daughter and a son and my

daughter showing interest in horses

now, and I really hope that that

sticks. So I'm trying to just nurture

it, not push.

>> Susan Schwartz: Well, how fantastic that you ended up at the brand

that makes the official Amy

Julep for the Kentucky Derby.

How crazy is that?

>> Elizabeth McCall: I know. Well, and that's part of, like, this

is just such a dream. Because I remember when I joined Brown

Forman in 2009 and we. I went on this

orientation and went to Woodford Reserve, and you drive

through some of the most iconic horse farms in

Kentucky, and it was like this. This brand is

amazing. It's. It's a dream. And then now I get to work on

it, and it's just. It's. Everything kind of

fell into place.

>> Susan Schwartz: Yeah. If you're going to love horses any in any state,

Kentucky is the state. I have been there. And

the horse farms are insane. They're just

glorious. The landscape is gorgeous. So how

funny. Now, I also know that your mother worked at

Seagram's. Right. And I was

just wondering, do you think any of her experiences

rubbed off on you in a positive way for you

to enter into the business or even in a

negative way, really? You know, what did she

think and did you think while you were entering it

of what it could be?

>> Elizabeth McCall: It's interesting because my mom would always talk about her job at

Seagram's because she had left that

role by the time I was born. And so

there wasn't an overlap. But when I was

getting my job here, she'd be like, oh, yeah. And I worked at Seagram,

but it was, it didn't influence or

take away. But now when we talk about.

Comes out so much more because she'll bring up like, oh, I was the

only woman. I mean, my mom worked there in

the late 70s and

she was the manager of a

union of all men,

basically working the bottling line. And she was in

quality control as well. So she had a couple different

roles, but always in bottling. And.

And the reason why she left was because she was. They

didn't have a maternity policy and my mom

was just so overwhelmed and they didn't have a way to, you know, now

we've got flexibility and people are more

understanding about, oh, you've got kids. But back then it

wasn't a thing. So my mom didn't go back to work

after having my brother. But. But she'll talk about that.

Just. But my mom's a very strong

willed person, so I think that rubbed off on me. And

it wasn't this thing like, oh, poor me, I was the only woman.

She's like, well, I just told them that this is how we're doing

it. And she. But that's

Rosemary O'Neill and she's sassy.

So I think that's what I

got from my mom. And it was just this. Instilled

that belief in me, like, you'll never. You need to

support yourself. Don't ever let be like

completely reliant on somebody. I mean, my parents are still

married and they're very much, you know,

she's. It's not like she's like this single woman, but it's like

it just was really important. That was something she always said to me

was like, you have value and you're a

smart person.

>> Susan Schwartz: So, yeah, I guess I got that as well. My mom always said, you know,

never rely on anyone. And she and my dad were married for 65

years, so. And she didn't really work. So you

took this job and you said there was, I thought, a

psychology kind of bit to

it. What was it?

>> Elizabeth McCall: So when you work in the sensory lab, you are

reading or you're. You're testing

human response to a stimulus. And our

stimulus happens to be beverage alcohol. And so

we're looking at. We are in our sensory lab,

we're using human beings as our instrument to

judge on quality defects on

just anything that shelf life testing, like

how long can something sit on a shelf before it changes

in flavor profile. So we do all that testing in

house at Brown Forman. And that's what I did.

Setting up those tests and then being able to interpret the

results, do the statistical analysis,

all of that. Because I learned all that in my psychology

degree. Because you would do. I had to learn

experimentation using human beings. So it

all fits really well. It's not the

traditional way of thinking about psychology, but

it's. We use it. And then I think you use.

Psycho psychology is a great degree because you use psychology

in Interact in the business world all the time or just

in your everyday life, honestly.

>> Susan Schwartz: Yeah, I've interviewed some bartenders who were, uh, who study

neuroscience and um. It is. Yeah, same kind of thing. And

they're like. We use it all the time when we're creating drinks

and looking how people are drinking and what they're drinking and how

they're drinking.

>> Elizabeth McCall: There's so much more to it than just

what you see on the surface, right?

>> Susan Schwartz: Absolutely. Now, how long did it take

you? I'm, uh, assuming you're in love with the drinks industry, you're still

in the drinks industry, but how long do you think it took

you to, you know, fall under its

charm?

>> Elizabeth McCall: It was, I would say we. It was a quick love affair.

>> Susan Schwartz: Hopefully still going on.

>> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah, and it's still going on. Especially when I entered.

So 2009 is when

bourbon was really starting to take off

and. And I had a lot of friends that had a lot of peaked

interest in it and. And that encouraged my

interest in wanting to really fully

understand it. And uh, it was kind of

learning how to appreciate it in the lab

was. So I think like within the

first year or two I was hooked on.

On this and. And now with Woodford,

it's. It is such a wonder. It's a wonderful

relationship that I have and I'm very

protective of the brand. And it's like.

It's a weird, weird way to think about it, but it is.

You do have this sense of ownership and there's like a weird.

Like the liquid I'm responsible for even

Though I know we have. I work for a major corporation. There are

a lot of people looking at Woodford to make sure

that it's okay. But at the end of the day like I'm

the person who will be. I look at like Chris Morris,

our master still emeritus. I mean he was a Master Stiller

since 2003 and now I am

that. So for 20 years he owned it and

was the, you know, the person to maintain the

quality and integrity. And now that's my job because other people are going

to come and go, managers are going to come and go. I'm the

constant. And so it's like being the

parent or something.

>> Susan Schwartz: It's your baby. I was going to say really it is.

>> Elizabeth McCall: I guess it's. Yeah, that's what I'm trying. It's like your baby and you just

don't want people to abuse it or do anything

weird. So it's a, um, I love

it and I gotta take care of it.

>> Susan Schwartz: Now just back to your first encounters with

alcohol in your business when you were

part of the sensory team. Was it all different

spirit because Brown Forman has a lot of different spirits. Was it

different, Was it all different spirits or was your

first encounter with bourbon?

>> Elizabeth McCall: I worked on it from formulated products. I had to

make Southern Comfort in the lab,

make all the base for it and test all the flavors. So

I mean there was so much that I had to. So I

touched everything from tequilas, our

whiskeys, our wines formulated,

I mean everything. So it is,

it exposed me to a lot and then

learning how to make all of it was really

fascinating and then just how everything that

goes into it and uh, being on the quality side, I

think I developed a really strong passion for

understanding what goes into making

all of the products and in a really strong

appreciation for that. So that was something

that came out in me in this role. And the role was like

being very methodical and wanting things to be

standardized so that we could make sure we were testing things

correctly. So that was. I really leaned into it and

found this strong passion for quality in that role.

>> Susan Schwartz: And so when did you first start working

solely with bourbon then? How long had you been at the company?

>> Elizabeth McCall: I had been. So it was 2016 when

I was moved to work out um, at

ah, Woodford Reserve. I moved out to the distillery, started working

in production out there as quality control

specialist out there. And so that was 2016.

So yeah, seven years.

>> Susan Schwartz: Yeah. And so you were working in all different spirits before that

and then solely then just Woodford

Reserve. Did you feel Confident to go

into one spirit. Was it the

direction you wanted to take? Had you been drinking?

Sorry, now I'm gonna ask a thousand questions at once.

Had you been drinking bourbon? Is this something that you

liked and you thought, I want this to be the, uh, next

step in my career is gonna be bourbon because I love it,

or was it just happenstance that it was, you

know, the world came up and you said, oh, I'm gonna take this one.

>> Elizabeth McCall: It was more happenstance, I

think, but it also was me

driving it. I mean, I was definitely driving that

desire to want

to interact with the brands and interact

with consumers on our products because they were. In my

role as a sensory scientist, we did a lot of things

where we would work with our product developers

and do showcase, we call it. We would have the

lab open and we would showcase the different products that

they had developed and talk about them. And when we would do

that, I realized how much I loved talking about

the flavor profile and trying to not, I mean, I

guess, like, sell people on it, but just kind of. It just

fed something in my soul. Like, I love

that part of talking to people and that

ambassadorship. Like when we would have

days where we bring, like, the kids come into

work day, and it was like somebody had to present to all the

kids, and I was like, oh, I'll do it, because I love that side

of it. So I started realizing I had this interest

in doing more of the marketing side, and

so I started expressing that. And so then,

uh, and I mentioned that because as part of me

moving out to work specifically with Woodford

Reserve, I was master

taster as well. So I had started training with Chris

Morris to be master taster. And in that role, it was

tasting Woodford Reserve and being intimately

connected with that brand. From knowing the

brand story to the liquid development, and then starting

to peek behind the curtain with Chris Morris, the master

distiller, and doing those presentations and

speaking on behalf of the brand and doing that work. So

that's when I was like, oh, I really love doing

this. I am energized by people by talking about

seeing people's excitement for Woodford. And

so that all was going on. And then the other thing, with those seven

years of working, uh, with all the different

products, and I was also working with all of our

global production facilities. So I was going out to

all of our global production facilities, learning how they work.

So I was at Jack Daniels, I was at Canadian Mist, I went to

Chambord and I went all over, and it gave

me such a huge Appreciation for how things

are made and the connections

you need when you do projects in

production and when you have to ask people to do something

that might be outside of their box or outside their

comfort zone. Working at Woodford in that

smaller role, people see you climb the

ladder and know that you're part of their team. And

so I fully understand and appreciate what I

ask of my team to do. And I always

consider that when we're doing a master's

collection. So I. Those seven years are so

valuable to me. I'm so lucky I got to do

that.

>> Susan Schwartz: Yeah, I'm sure. Now, you said that you were a master

taster. What does that involve?

I mean, is that something that you learn or

do you just have it and you find that

you have it? You know, the tongue. I know when I took the

wset and they're like, what does this taste like? I was like, well,

you know, they'll give me a bourbon or would I say rum? And I'd be like,

it tastes like rum. You know that,

you know, does. Is it something that you feel like you

developed or you naturally had?

>> Elizabeth McCall: I think it's a combination. It's something I

naturally had. Uh, and then you nurture it and

learn to really, really develop it. And that

was what happened. Part of my role in the

sensory role. We started the quality descriptive

analysis panel, so I was starting

that work away from even doing

stuff with Chris Morris. So I was already starting to

figure out, okay, how do we measure

whiskey in a qualitative way?

Uh, but in a way that we can all build a consensus around

the flavor profile. So you could look at a whiskey. You could look at a

new whiskey and judge the spiciness of that

distillate versus one that's a fully

mature whiskey. And. And it's all on the same scale,

and it's very challenging to do that. But

we worked with some sensory groups on that, so that really

got my palate tuned in. But I still

have to do it. I mean, I still have. I have aroma jars here that I'll

open up and just refresh my brain. Because

you just need that to set your reference point again,

like, what does clove smell like

again? And so that was something that I really developed.

And then as a master taster, got to really

figure out how I apply that to the

specific role with Woodford Reserve.

>> Susan Schwartz: Yeah, I saw that you were on the committee to do that, how to

properly nose and taste things.

How did you come to consensus or did you

even.

>> Elizabeth McCall: Well, we would. Because we. The way that we do. We had,

um, panelists that we trained and we started with. You

create references. So basically. And it

converted over to, we started with like, here's

a really fruity Scotch and this is the one. This is

if something's going to be dried, dark fruit. And this is the. On a

scale of 1 to 10, this is a

10. Then everything else, how do you, how

does it compare to that? And so you, you

have to have these anchoring references. And then we converted

it over to Jack Daniel so it was like, Jack

is your standard. And so maybe on the fruity

scale, you know, it's at a seven and

then on the brown, uh,

sugar scale, it's, it's a little bit

more like, uh, a five or you know, and you just kind of

work it that way. And then smoke, it's zero. And

then you have a reference of maybe ard bag is your, this

is smoke. And if it's going to exist in whiskey, this is

what it looks like. And so that's where you have your anchors

and that becomes your reference. That if you're going to give

something this rating, it has to

compare to your reference point. And

so then that kind of becomes how you standardize.

And afterwards we would kind of talk like if somebody was a major

outlier, they would be, you know, we would have

to maybe talk to them like, okay, why did you choose that? And then

they could get kicked out of the panel or something.

And that's, that's what. They're an instrument. So

you would, with an instrument you'd take out your

outliers.

>> Susan Schwartz: Yeah, exactly. Uh, now coming to Woodford

Reserve had, what was the first role that you had there?

>> Elizabeth McCall: I was a senior quality

control specialist. I worked in the

processing dumping area, so where we would

dump all of our batches. So I was up in that part of

the distillery.

>> Susan Schwartz: And what was it like working, uh, your initial thoughts

about working with just one brand?

>> Elizabeth McCall: Oh, I loved it. I mean it was, there's so much

pride because I, I had spent a lot of time out

at Woodford already and developed really close relationships

with everyone there. And so then getting to work

out there and be boots on the ground and just

wear, you know, steel toed boots every day and

you're just. I just, I love that work

and I love when I do get to go out to the distillery and

just be with the distillery team and not

be master distiller, but just be

myself. And I mean they all, I don't like think of me that

way, but they all knew me before I became in

this role and so it's just nice to

talk and talk about whiskey and

what we can do to improve it. I don't know, it's just there's great

people that work at uh, Woodford. It's like the dream

team out there.

>> Susan Schwartz: And to be only the third master

distiller ever is quite a

thing. You know, tell me a little bit about working with Chris

and you know, progression towards being

assistant master distiller and then him handing the

reins over to you. I know

it's, you know, it's a lifetime of knowledge, but

hand pick the things that maybe he taught you or

that you figured out on your own.

>> Elizabeth McCall: So he, he uh, taught me

almost everything I know. I always

joke that he's like my bourbon dad. I mean he

is somebody that's just extremely special to

me and that I can go to him

with any issue. There's a huge level

of comfort and uh, trust between

he and I and that developed over time. Um,

because you know, it went from being this is Chris

Morris and putting him up on this pedestal of

oh my God, he's this legend. And I am going to

go like ride around with him and learn from him how cool and not even

knowing what do I say and how do I act. But he and

I meshed right away. There

was no.

Just such a nice level of comfort. And

he shares. I remember my first trip with

him going down to Nashville and it

was like being on a

narrated like bus

ride or something. Like every, every stop he's like, do you know

what happened here? And there's this. And he has historical

information and little bits of trivia about everything.

And so he's just a fascinating person to be

around. And so when. And now it's like

he is family at this point. And so it's funny

because now I can be like, Chris, what are you doing? Or I mean it's

the way that I talk to him is family member

and it's, it's shifted from being this person. I'm like, oh, I don't even

know how to talk to you to now we just can

totally shoot the breeze. But he taught me

so much. A lot of it was like, I mean he

really taught me my presentation skills of life,

how to, how do you

act at an event, like going up

and introducing yourself to people and how to

present at a dinner and so all those sorts of

things and then how to handle tough

situations in the distillery or things that are

going on with the brand and where you have to kind of put like

when quality is at stake and you have to really fight for it.

And he's taught me, uh, how to handle those

situations. He taught me how to innovate and

how to maintain brand integrity. And that is something,

I mean, he's teaching that to all the

teams at this point, really, because I think something

that's really important and I don't know, he's been around so

long, but understanding your brand's

identity and what your brand stands for

and not going all over

the place just because it's what's cool, it's like, stay true to

your values. And that's kind of important about, I guess, you

as a person in life. And so you always would talk about Woodford

Reserve as like a human, as like

a person in a way. And so it was really

important to make sure that we maintain Woodford

and what is. So we can't just. We're not just going to do

some sugary thing with

it or like a liqueur or something.

It's like, what do we stand for? And so

that's been something that's been huge. And it's how. It's what

drives all the innovation. It's like we're going to do things in a

natural way using, um, grains that have been

toasted instead of using flavors, and we're going to use different wine

barrels and things that are premium to work with this brand

to do innovation. And then another thing that he taught

me that I think is so important, especially

because he's a very humble person. And when

you're in a role where it is a big role, I mean,

somebody said to me yesterday, they're like, so you're. You're

kind of famous, aren't you? And I was like, uh,

no, that's. That's a stretch. I can walk

anywhere and nobody knows who I am. That's not famous.

But. But everything I have gotten to

do in my career, the amazing

trips, the amazing events I've gotten to do, the

derby, it's all because of Woodford

Reserve. It's not. I mean, yes,

I do a lot. I'm good at my job,

but I wouldn't be doing these things if it wasn't for

Woodford. And Woodford is why I get to

do all these amazing things in my job. And I never lose

sight of that, that I'm here to represent

Woodford. I'm here to speak on Woodford's behalf because

Woodford can't speak for itself. So that is just

something that. And it keeps you humble and it keeps

you grounded in trying to just

always remember to put Woodford first when you're out

doing your job.

>> Susan Schwartz: It's not about me, but I'm sure when you're

stepping into a role like this, you also can't help

but think, ooh, what can I do now?

You know, I think that's just human nature. And

especially because you have the Masters collection, the Distillers

collection, all of these things, other than,

you know, preserving the liquid. Obviously goes without

saying. Now that you've been in this role almost two

years, were there things that

you had wanted to do when

you were assistant master distiller and you got to finally

do them or you. Or you even thought of them

when you became the Masters Distiller?

>> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah, we are doing some. Switching some things

up. So, you know, I mean, I can't reveal too

much, but I've always wanted to play

with proof and maybe step outside of doing things

just at 90.4 proof. So I

think be looking for that to come from

me. And it's not about just doing a high

proof, just to do a high proof, but to

display the whiskey in the way that is

the best that I really enjoy and

that I just feel like sometimes I open up barrels and I

taste them and it's a higher proof, and I'm like, oh, I can't

bear to cut it all the way down to

90.4. I love my 90.4

Woodford Reserve bourbon. I drink it all the time.

But sometimes when something's really special,

there's just a better presentation at

a higher proof. So, um, so you'll see that

and then even age and really trying to

play in that space. And, um, so that'll be an

interesting thing too, because we've never done an age

statement. And so. So those are things that I think

will be the biggest difference. But other than that,

when it comes to, I mean, we. We just filled some

cabernet barrels and I love cabernet red

wine, so we'll do that and see how that

does. And so it's just kind of a fun playing in that space.

And I think it's stuff that Chris will be proud.

He's proud to see me do it. And it's stuff that he never really

did.

>> Susan Schwartz: And so now, you know, we didn't.

We didn't really talk about your relationship with bourbon. Did

you drink bourbon when you were younger? Is it something that, you know,

maybe your dad drank or your mom drank?

>> Elizabeth McCall: So it was something that my dad would come

home every night and have his, his one

bourbon. I mean, that's. And he still is that way. My

mom's a beer drinker, so she, she puts ice

in her beer. But my dad always drank bourbon when he

would get home. And so. But when I was

younger, I just, I didn't, I didn't

know how to drink it. I mean, I

sounds so weird to say now, but I felt

like you, I couldn't fathom the idea of drinking a

high proof spirit, anything neat or on

the rocks. Like I always, I had to mix it. I just was like you,

you don't drink that straight. Gross. So

it took me a while to appreciate how

to drink bourbon, just

enjoy it for what it is. And I mean, I do love

cocktails. I'm not really embarrassed by it. I find it funny. I mean,

when I went out, it was the early

2000s and you know, people were drinking

vodka and vodka soda was huge. So I would have my

vodka soda and lime and go about my

business.

>> Susan Schwartz: There's nothing wrong with that.

>> Elizabeth McCall: That's what I was drinking. And then when I started at Brown Forman,

that's when I learned how to

drink bourbon and appreciate it. And

now, I mean, if I'm doing, I just pour it over

the rocks. I am a bourbon on the rocks kind of girl.

I don't really drink it neat unless I'm tasting something

that's a little special, a little more elevated. But I

regular bourbon, I'm bourbon on the rocks.

And because I just love it and it tastes so good and when

I go place, I mean it really, I just, I don't know

what I'm either red wine or bourbon. That's

it.

>> Susan Schwartz: You know, I'm not saying this because I have you on the other side of

the microphone, but yes, um, bourbon. Bourbon is

my favorite spirit as well. I was interviewing a brand

ambassador once and she. A brand ambassador for a

bourbon. And she said, a bourbon is my

husband and tequila is my lover.

And I love that because those are actually my two favorite

sweets. Yes. And, um, but I'm an old fashioned

girl. I like it with a little bit of the sugar.

>> Elizabeth McCall: I love old fashioned, but it's really. I like

when somebody else is making me a cocktail

and mint juleps.

>> Susan Schwartz: Oh, me too. Me too as well. Now, I also

read that, you know, you said that Chris

Morris was such a historian and the

things that you loved were delving into

flavor and also sustainability. And I

was wondering if you've gotten to do that in your new role.

>> Elizabeth McCall: Yes. So I've been really, uh, heavily

involved with the Kentucky Rye project and

bringing back rye, uh, for commercial

use to Kentucky because rye doesn't grow well

in Kentucky on any large scale. People do it on a smaller

scale, uh, but on a large scale it's very

challenging. So and, and it's a big

sustainability play because once you

harvest corn you can put the rye, plant

it and cover as a winter cover crop.

And it does wonders for your soil. It

stabilizes the topsoil so you don't see as much

uh, soil runoff into your stream. So it cleans up your

waterways and then it sequesters carbon from

the atmosphere and draws it down into the soil.

So it actually fertilizes the soil as well. So it

has so many benefits as a cover

crop. So that's one piece of

it. But then if you can take it and have it go to

seed and actually harvest the rye, seed and

have that and then sell it, then it

becomes more than just a cover crop. It's now

has an uh, economic uh, component to it as

well. So that's been a project that I've been

working on myself with Woodford

Reserve and then the University of Kentucky. And so

there's uh, several people involved in it and it's

just the farmers really. We've got four

dedicated farmers to doing all

the dirty work of the data research

and working with are um, to

learn how to, when do you plant, when's the best

time to plant and all that. So there's so many different

facets to work. But that's uh, it's a five year project and

we've already completed year one and we're on year

two and we're about to meet in a couple weeks to kind

of gear up for this next harvest

and see how things are going. So it's just really fascinating.

I've learned a lot about farming. It just gives you such

a great appreciation for all the work that goes

into that.

>> Susan Schwartz: And have you been able to use that rye in your rye?

>> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah, so we've been using Kentucky grown rye because this

is like phase two of uh, this Kentucky Rye

project. And so we've been for the past five

years once a year using Kentucky

grown rye in our uh, Woodford

whiskey. Only a small quantity because there's not a lot of

it but uh, so that's been really fun to be a part of

that project.

>> Susan Schwartz: And did you find that it, it changed like

the taste was different from before when you were

using a different states rye?

>> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah, it's slightly more floral

and fruity than the standard plump Rye, which is just

a little more grassy. So that we've seen, and that's just

in the new make, distillate, and then it

kind of fades out as it gets mature. With the

barrel influence, you don't see all those subtle differences, but

it's hard to say. I mean, that was just one year's crop,

so, you know, we'll see. We've got lots of years to start

comparing. And so we're doing all that flavor research

as part of this study.

>> Susan Schwartz: And I wonder if the corn will then have a

different flavor.

>> Elizabeth McCall: Well, uh, we haven't noticed.

>> Susan Schwartz: I know nothing about farming though, so I have no idea.

>> Elizabeth McCall: We haven't noticed anything with flavor but the yield. So

just that you see a greater growth rate

of your corn. Our farmers are seeing that because the soil's

healthier.

>> Susan Schwartz: And you also, of course, make so wheat,

malt, rye and corn bourbon.

How have you seen them grow? Have you seen people really respond to

them?

>> Elizabeth McCall: Yes, but they're so small that

our rye whiskey is a fantastic rye

whiskey. I, I think the flavor is

phenomenal on it. Uh, but it's. We don't have

the facility capacity to make

a ton of it, so it's always going to be a little smaller.

And then our wheat and malt, they're

beautiful liquids, but I just think that they're so

limited. I mean, they're always out. They're not something

that we're one time of year release. But, um,

they're just so small that people don't really know about them.

And so I think when we get more people tasting

them, that'll kind of the interest will grow. But it's.

They're always going to be really small expressions of

Woodford.

>> Susan Schwartz: And I have a list here of the past

Distiller series expressions. There's a lot

there, tons. What. Which ones are you still

making or you are, you know, were kind of your favorites

that you, you loved.

>> Elizabeth McCall: So with Masters collection, it's a one and

done, so we don't repeat them. Uh, but

we're kind of toying with the idea of do

we bring back ones that people just were

extremely popular? Uh, that I loved because

I do. There's a few of them that I'm like, they were just so good. Like, I

loved our Pinot finish. The Chardonnay finish

is one of. It's Chris Morse's favorite Masters collection.

And so it's like, we should bring it back also.

>> Susan Schwartz: You describe, you described one in a different podcast

about the heavy toast. I even wrote it down. Dessert

Bourbon.

>> Elizabeth McCall: Oh, our. Um, Is it the double double

or the.

>> Susan Schwartz: Yes, I think it was that. And you. Oh, my God, that sounded so good. I

was like, is there any left?

>> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah, well, double double. We actually are

just. We just released it nationally in the

US So it used to be just something we would only have for.

Available in the state of Kentucky, and now it's

available in USA and Canada.

Um, so we're really, really excited that people are

getting their hands on that and people are pumped

about that because it is. It is delicious.

>> Susan Schwartz: Yes. When I get home, I may have my mom order one

just. Just to make sure we have. We have one because the way

you described it sounded so good. And you know, I love

a bourbon both before dinner and after

dinner. So to have something that you call a dessert,

bourbon just has to be good. Just has to be great.

Now, the Distiller series. So,

um, you talked about the master collection. The Distiller

series. How is that that different from

the master collection? Just for people who might not know.

>> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah. So the distillery series is one that we only

release in the state of Kentucky.

And, uh, so it's only released there and predominantly

at our home place. And it is

small runs that we don't have the ability to scale

up to a, um, like a master's

collection level. And they're really meant to be just

nice offerings for. Thank you for coming to visit us.

And here's an opportunity to get

something unique you can't get anywhere else.

>> Susan Schwartz: That is such a reason to hear that, everyone, that it's a reason to

go visit Kentucky, man. Yes.

Uh, it's the stuff that you can't get anywhere else.

So also I was wondering, you know, what

changes have you seen since you've been there, since you've

been there for a while?

>> Elizabeth McCall: A lot, I'm sure. A

lot. Well, we've doubled capacity at

our distillery. So we've got. We went from three

pot stills to now we have six pot stills. We have

16 fermenters. So we've

exploded immensely. So not only have

we grown physically in the. The amount

of, uh, equipment we have, but then

the time like when I first started going out to

Woodford, we bottled twice a week.

And then now, then we got to a

point where we were bottling 24, seven across

three shifts. And now we've been able to rejig

it. We send some of our product to our

Louisville campus to be bottled. And, um, so that has

helped alleviate some of that. But now, I mean, it's

just crazy how we're we're five days a

week, two shifts, bottling constantly.

Just a huge team of people. I mean,

it's just. It used to be such a sleepy

place out at Woodford, and now it is not

so much. We're always going and going.

>> Susan Schwartz: It is incredible. I mean, I do a cocktail tour and

when I talk about how things have changed, it's really

in the past, not even 20

years. And, you know,

uh, the love of Bourbon around

the world now is just insane. I mean, it's

incredible that this liquid has

really. People have fallen in love with it again

after the vodka tonic years, you

know, it's really incredible. And to hear that

you just bottled twice, twice a week, even a

few years ago, really is insane.

>> Elizabeth McCall: I know.

>> Susan Schwartz: I, uh, never would have thought that. Especially such a popular brand as

Woodford Reserve.

>> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah, I mean, that was probably when I. That was

gonna. That was probably around 2010, 11.

It was like that. And now

it's just taken out. I mean, it's just to see, like our bottling

line, how it has changed. I mean, it went from

being something that you bring over a few cases and

people would take the bottles out and put them on the line themselves to

now we have like an un, you know, depalatizer

and, you know, an uncaser

that's all automated. It's just crazy to see how

much it's all changed. And, um, it's like

Frankenstein, our little bottling line.

>> Susan Schwartz: I want to just bring down the bottle for a sec

because I always think it's fun for people to look at,

uh, the bottle, especially if they're. If they're looking at the video. So guys, look at

the video on YouTube and I heard that

you have been practicing. You practice your

signature.

>> Elizabeth McCall: I did.

>> Susan Schwartz: So what can you just tell people what they find

when they, when they read the label? The label.

>> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah. So we've got the, yeah, the batch

number on there and the percent ABV and

batch number. And you've got the, like, our

signatures on there. So you've got Chris Morris's signature.

And my signature is slowly rolling out to other

bottles. And so you'll see Elizabeth McCall on

there.

>> Susan Schwartz: So the next bottle I have will be yours.

>> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah, yeah. Well, uh, yeah, I know my.

It's slowly making its way out there, but yeah, when I was

practicing my signature for that, I was like, I've got to get

this right and make sure it looks good. So I went to.

I did a bunch of them on white paper and then

took my signature to my colleagues

that work in the Sensory lab. And they're the most

honest people that I work. Like,

they know me from when I was

nobody. So it's like they've been with me the whole

journey. And so they're good at being very critical,

and I love that. And so I went and I was like, okay, which

one do you all like? And they picked and criticized

everything. And so then that. That was how I picked

which one. Which one was the best?

>> Susan Schwartz: Well, see you. It's kind of. You came full circle because you went back

to the sensory lab, right?

>> Elizabeth McCall: Oh, yeah. They're my people, so I.

I always go back to them.

>> Susan Schwartz: Well, this has been really, really fabulous. It's been great

talking to you about your journey to

Master Distiller.

>> Elizabeth McCall: Thank you. This was a fun interview. I appreciate it

because you said, uh, I've done a lot of interviews. And so this

one was really enjoyable. Thank you.

>> Susan Schwartz: Thank you for spending the time with me.

>> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah. Thank you, Susan. This was wonderful.

>> Susan Schwartz: I want to thank Elizabeth for joining me on the program.

And thank you so much to Woodford Reserve for sponsoring

the transcription for the hearing impaired.

Elizabeth's choice for cocktail of the week is a

Kentucky cocktail through and through. So even

if you think you know how to make it, try it again

the Woodford Reserve way.

Our cocktail of the week is the Woodford

Reserve Old Fashioned. You'll need

Woodford Reserve bourbon, of course,

Demerara sugar syrup, Angostura

bitters, a large ice cube and

an orange peel. The simplest way to make

sugar syrup, in my opinion, is to get a teacup.

Add ah, one tablespoon of sugar, then one tablespoon of

boiling water and stir until dissolved.

It's so easy. Pour 2 ounces of

that bourbon into your favorite old Fashioned glass, of

course. Then add half an ounce of

Demerar simple syrup and three dashes of

Angostura bitters. Add your

gorgeous ice cube and then stir for at

least 10 seconds. Then

express that orange peel over the cocktail and drop

it right in. You'll find this

recipe in all the Cocktails of the

week@alushlifemanual.com plus

links to most of the ingredients.

Heading to Philadelphia, where I'll finally meet my

producer face to face for the first time

ever. How is that possible

if you live for Lush Life? Make sure you head out to the bars

you love and order a drink.

Theme music for Lush Life is by Steven Shapiro and

used with permission. And Lush Life

is always and will be forever, produced by Evoterra and

Simpler Media Productions. Yes, that Evo

Terra I have never met him face to face

only online. Which leaves

me to say the wise words of Oscar Wilde. All things in

moderation, including moderation. And always

drink responsibly.

Next time we meet one of the best

bartenders in London. Until

then, bottoms, um, up.

>> Elizabeth McCall: T.