1, 2, 3, 4.

Hello, and welcome to beyond the Desk, the podcast where I take a deep dive into the careers of some of the most influential and inspiring leaders in the technology transformation and operations space within global insurance and insurtech.

I'm your host, Mark Thomas, and every week I'll be sitting down with industry trailblazers who are driving innovation and modernization within the insurance sector.

We'll explore their personal journeys, from their early backgrounds and the pivotal moments that shape their careers to the challenges they've had to overcome, the lessons they've learned along the way, and of course, the big wins that have defined their professional journey so far.

But it's not just about their successes.

It's about what you and I can take away from their experiences and the advice they have for anyone wanting to follow in similar footsteps.

Whether you're just starting out or looking.

To level up your career in the insurance or insuretech world, this podcast is packed with valuable insights and inspiration.

So grab your headphones, get comfortable, and let's jump into beyond the Desk.

David, welcome to the podcast.

How you doing?

I'm very well, thank you.

Right, let's get going.

So I always.

We're going to go right back to the start of your career and work through kind of the, the plotted history.

But, but before we do that, let's get a bit of an intro on you current role and then we'll go back and work our way through it and, and see where we get to from there.

Fantastic.

Well, I can't roll as I'm founder and CEO of the Camelet Network.

Yep.

And Camelot consulting business, which I started about a year and a half ago in consulting and the network started seven years ago.

Right.

So let's, we're definitely going to go into that and I want to know a little bit more about work, how you set it up and what you're doing and stuff like that.

But let's go right back to what did the early days of, of David's career look like?

Did you go into kind of technology and stuff like that straight from school?

University?

What, what, what did the, what did the early days in the start of the career look like?

For me, it was a little, little bit different.

Okay.

I left school when I was 17.

Yeah.

So I didn't do A levels at school.

Okay.

I took an apprenticeship.

Right.

Because I fancy the idea of being an engineer.

I like practical things, solving things, logical analytics.

And so I took an apprenticeship and the, with the raw mail.

Yeah.

Plymouth.

I did that for two years.

I, I did Part time study.

And the, the royal man said, would you like to go to university?

So I said, oh yeah, I'll be up for that.

Yeah.

So I then went and did a electronic electrical engineering degree at University of Salford.

Okay.

Did they pay for that then?

Did they work?

To work.

Okay.

I also got a, not only a bursary from the post of the Royal Mail, but also from an engineering society called the Whitworth Society.

Right.

Which was where Sir Joseph Whitworth, a prominent Engineer in the 19th century, he donated a big sum of money to the current government to fund people from apprenticeships to go into higher education.

So then have a, a mixture of practical skills through the apprenticeship and then academic skills as well.

And he, he said his, his theory was that they would make great engineers.

And so I got a bursary in 1995 to do that.

And then I then later became the president of the society in the year 2000.

I'm still part of the, the Sir Joseph Whitliff Society.

So I guess that went.

When you say engineering, that was more kind of mechanical engineering, that type of stuff rather than software engineering.

Right.

Right.

I started electronic electronics.

Okay.

Right.

Which have a little bit of mechanical.

And then I came out with a fortunate to get a first class honors degree from Salford.

Amazing.

I then went back to work for the Raw Mail in their R D center in Swindon.

Okay.

And I then progressed up within the RAW Mail.

I went into they, I, I applied for like a fast track management program which I, which I got, I was lucky to, to, to get.

And then so progressed up, moved into project management.

Yep.

And then in 2000 I took the leap out of big safe corporate world.

And I thought okay, let's, let's go for the world of the sort of Internet boom at the time.

So I joined a very small company called Wire.

Right.

Which the Wire Limited and Wire stood for Worldwide Intellectual Resources Exchange.

Okay.

Is a phenomenal name.

Yeah, yeah.

What does that mean exactly?

And it was all about using information and data as an asset in the insurance world.

Okay.

And I went in there and it was a, it was a startup that unfortunately didn't.

So after six months I, I left that business and I was thinking, oh, okay, that didn't work very well.

So I'd gone from kind of almost civil service type company to startup world.

And, and then I thought, actually I've learned a considerable amount about startup world.

And from that point I then applied for a role with Virgin Virgin Media.

Yeah.

So I had a project management there.

Did that for a Few years.

Loved working in Leicester Square.

It's great.

And then I went to work for Coutts, the private bank as head of banking systems.

Right.

Did that for a few years and was then part of the merger with NatWest and Royal bank of Scotland.

Did that for a while and then left and became head of assist IT systems at JP Morgan.

Yep.

For one of their departments.

Did that for four years.

Left.

Learned a lot about IT and general management skills.

And then I had a phone call from a recruiter saying, would I like to take a role at this insurance company called Hiscox?

Yep.

I thought that's a company I remember from the wire days.

Yeah.

That was particularly good.

Good ethics, good values, good brand.

So I thought, yes, actually, yes, I would.

So I joined there and we had a great nine years at his Cox, learning all about insurance.

Learning about it and leading various teams around it for the UK retail business.

Yep.

Until 2016, which then I left and became an independent advisor.

Yeah.

So.

So the.

Did you live in Swindon?

I lived in Swindon for two years.

The only reason.

That's where.

That's kind of where I'm from.

Ish.

Yeah.

I live in.

Do you know a place.

Do you remember Marlborough?

Yes, I do.

Yeah.

I'm just outside there.

So.

Yeah, he went there.

I know that Royal Mail building very, very well.

Just off the day.

419 or whatever.

Yeah, yeah.

I remember my first day there and I.

I literally just got a first class honors degree in electronic electric engineering.

Yeah.

I went great.

Right.

I'm up for it.

Full of confidence.

I'm a graduate.

Brilliant.

I got in there and the, the person who ran the R D center called me in for a.

For like a high welcome chat.

Yeah, Yeah, I remember him.

A great big desk.

He was set.

Gray haired chap, very old and I kid you not, the window was open and at the time there was a field next door and this cobweb had flown in and had attached himself to his head and the window and little spider was crawling down and I, I could, I could not concentrate because his spider was coming.

And he said, yes, they.

Well done on your degree.

We got you a job in the engineering safety department for checking out safety of chairs and tables.

Yeah.

I was like, no, come.

Seriously.

He said, no, this is, this is where you start to earn your.

I said, hang on, I've got this degree.

And there was a complete mismatch.

Yeah.

On how I would be.

So.

Yes.

It wasn't a good start.

No.

And I guess you were kind of like committed in the sense they'd obviously paid for your degree.

Did you have to kind of go there and work for a certain period of time?

You'll probably have to pay it back or whatever.

Yeah, I mean, so, so.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, things obviously evolved a bit since then, so let's just go through, I just want to go through that, that evolution.

So where was the switch there from.

From the kind of the, the, the atypical engineering type stuff that you obviously were doing in your degree and, and, and into more of a technology bias.

Where did that happen on that journey?

And was that something that you kind of proactively thought was the way to, the way to go, or was it just a kind of natural evolution?

It wasn't a natural evolution because the, the opportunities in the Royal Mail for me were in the engineering space were quite limited.

Right.

I had to do a role for five years and.

Yeah.

Or maybe 10 years and then might get a promotion or whatever.

And actually I found that I was really good at organizing things.

Right.

Controlling things, governing things.

And that sort of project management type role appealed to me.

So that's why I took that role.

And then from there it evolved into it.

Right.

And that was sort of the transition into this kind of technology space via project management.

Yeah.

Okay.

So it was kind of.

You understood that going into something around delivery and that kind of thing was actually where your kind of core skill set were, where you could add most value.

And then that evolved into technology because that's what a lot of people needed delivered, I guess at that, at that moment in time.

And that's, and that's.

And that's where it goes.

Okay, so.

And then move into, into banking, was that, was that something again?

That was a, was a kind of a conscious decision, I think like probably then like late 90s, early 2000s, banking was the industry to be in.

Certainly kind of was.

Was.

Was well paid and, and lots of good, cool stuff going on.

I certainly remember when I first started recruiting into the tech space was probably 20 years ago and, and investment banking then was where.

Where, where everybody wanted to be.

So was that again, something that you kind of.

Was that something you, you strat.

There was a strategy behind that or again, was that just kind of something that, that just happened.

So by that time my wife El and I had four kids.

Yeah.

And I wanted to make sure I had the best start in life for them.

Yeah.

And for me at the time, that meant, okay, let's get the next role, the next job, the next opportunity.

And investment banking and banking first and investment banking provided me with those opportunities to progress in my career and also earn more money so I can then do the best for my family.

Yeah, yeah, makes sense.

And then, and then the first move to insurance.

So what, what was that like?

So you mean, so what kind of year would that have been that you joined Hiscox, Right?

Okay, Yeah.

I assumed the business was a lot smaller than what it is right now.

So what, we're going from JP Morgan, big banks, what was that like, going into a smaller insurance business?

Different market, different sector.

What was that like?

I remember J.P.

morgan, you could say.

You could say a rule, a policy, and then everyone follow that policy.

When I arrived at his Cox, I was put in charge of a team and I was about to sort of issue a policy.

That was what I was, I was used to doing.

And a very wise person from his got said, perhaps you put into the positive, this is the benefit of doing something.

Let's all do this rather than a policy.

Whereas in banking it was like, you do this and that's it.

And so that was one difference.

But the other difference was insurance was much more about.

Is much more about helping people at the time of need.

The underwriters sell the promise claims deliver the promise.

And that human aspect of it is one of the reasons why I love insurance, because it's there to help people when they need it most.

Time people don't need it, which is great, but when they do, they really need to have that support.

So I found that a big difference in investment banking, you don't have that ethical or sort of interest.

It's about basically making as much money for your stakeholders as possible.

Yeah.

You're a lot less further.

You're much further away from the actual customer, aren't you?

I guess, in that scenario.

So, and then, and so you said that you were there for nine years, is that right?

And then.

And then Camelot was straight after that, was it?

That's right, yep.

Yeah.

So, so what.

Talk us through that decision.

Like what that.

What the plan was, what the.

What problem you're trying to solve and, and why you came to that kind of decision to, to go out on your own.

Sure.

So I turned 50 and I thought to myself, okay, I've been at.

He's got some.

Nine years.

Yeah.

What, what, what am I going to do?

I'm going to.

Am I going to state his Cox and have that on my epitaph and then my grave when I retire?

That's it.

Yeah.

Or is, is it worth giving it a Go and doing something different.

Yeah.

So after much soul reflecting and thinking about it, I thought, well actually I've got one life, let's give it a go.

What's the worst that could happen?

I don't, I'm not successful as an independent advisor.

I could then go and get a, a corporate role in another insurance job.

So I get, I remember thinking to myself I'm going to give myself six months to be successful.

Yeah.

Well, eight years later I love it.

Yeah.

Personally I won't go back to the corporate world.

I love the freedom, the variety, the flexibility, the independence, the ability to speak, to get, meet new people all the time, learn new things, help new people, help people all the time and make decisions on my, by myself about what I want to be.

And for me it was really, really empowering to realize that I can be successful as my true authentic self, not the corporate version that I was trying to be.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I can see that in many, many other people that I've, that I've helped is that there is this sort of realization that actually you yourself as you is is good enough and you can help people and people will pay compensate you for that.

And it's been, it's been a huge journey of building my own self confidence, building my learning about what I'm good at, what I'm not good at, who I'm the go to person for or problem I solve and then being in a position, a privileged position to be able to then help other people with that transition from corporate world into independent advisory or fractional working or interim work or contracting.

And in the last eight years I must have had about over 600 people have a chat with me about.

So I'm in this situation, I'm not sure what to do.

Can you help me?

I say it's exactly where I was, this is my story.

And then I help them with that, thinking that through about what they can do.

And, and ultimately it comes down to you've got one life.

Yeah.

How are you going to lead it?

So what does it.

So, so let's go through the kind of journey of, of, of Camelot and kind of what, what it started out as, the kind of original idea and then what it's evolved into and what you're kind of doing now and everything in between, I guess.

And what was the original idea?

So after a year and a half of being an independent advisor, being very successful, loving it, I thought to myself, actually there's one thing I didn't like that's being alone right I think as human beings, we're wired to be part of something bigger.

Okay.

So when you first started doing it, Camelot didn't come about right from the start.

You were just doing it as a kind of a typical independent interim contractor advisor, consultant.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

And so.

So I had this sort of notions, this vision that maybe if I'm in this situation, other people are as well.

Yep.

And I tested out by getting invited.

Invited a bunch of people who I knew who had made the transition from corporate world to independent advising.

Invited them to.

To a pub on the 12th of June, 2015.

Yeah.

So it's 2000.

2018.

Yeah, 2018.

And I said, I got this vision, got this picture, you know, and we were sitting around like a round table.

So I said, well, it's almost as if we're all kind of equals sitting around King Arthur's round table.

Yeah.

And that's why we call it Camelot.

Right.

It's all equals.

No longer is job grade or tenure in the business.

Yeah.

Depth of shagpile carpet in your office of any relevance.

Yeah.

Right.

About that world.

So.

So we said, and from that idea, everyone.

Yeah.

It's really, really good.

And it just built and built and built up to now.

It's a.

It's a phenomenal success story.

But it started from that pub that I think it was 15 people.

And then it grew just by word of, word of mouth, recommendations, people joining, people joining.

And it grew.

And I.

I love it.

So what did, what did that.

So it's.

So was the plan there to kind of get those people together and then.

And then provide each other with opportunities?

Is that how it works?

Or like.

Because.

Yeah.

How would it.

How would it work dayto day?

So the starting point was not provide each other with opportunities.

That's quite a business.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Speak.

Yeah.

I set out to provide opportunities to help each other.

Yeah.

To turn that on.

Its right.

How can I help other people?

And from that, everybody then helped other people.

Yeah.

And that ethos of actually, how can we help each other be successful, stronger together.

Yeah.

I think was the foundation and colonel and one of the reasons why Camel has been so successful is because it's actually, how can I genuinely help you?

Yeah.

Not, oh, how can I sell something for you or get a commission or anything like that.

It's about how can I generally.

And not just help the situation, but help the person.

I always say to, how can I help you?

And I focus on the you.

And from that, that set the kind of ethos for Camel and people just joined and helped each other.

And, and I now know that when I face off to my clients, I've got over 150 camel experts who would willingly jump in and help if I needed it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's almost providing the independent person with a team in the background that they can kind of dip into if they don't have experience in something.

They can, they can ask for advice and insights and, and maybe that does lead to business opportunities where someone else can come in and do stuff as well.

But, but the, the core ethos of it is how can that, that kind of in team of people equally everyone's kind of scratches each other's back type thing?

Is that, is that the, that the.

So our mantra is to help others first.

Yeah.

Okay.

The world's got a spooky way of going around in circles when you least expect it.

Yeah, of course.

And it's, it's, it's very anti traditional business ethos.

It's, it's, yeah, it turns it completely on its head and I've always been amazed if, if when I've helped someone without any expectation of return.

I've always, always had a return.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Totally agree.

So, so let's evolve that into.

Because I think we'll come back to a little bit about that.

What, what Camelot are doing now, but it's more specifically about you.

So, so when you started doing advisory work and what, what's that look like in regards to the type of stuff that you're.

You're personally working on now?

So for me, I have evolved and learned what I really enjoy doing.

Yep.

And for me it's easy because it's just what I've been sort of designed.

Born to do.

Yeah.

And I love being in front of an audience, be it a panel or a speech or being the master of ceremonies.

Give me a microphone, off I go.

Yeah.

For many people that is like nightmare scenario.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh my.

That's, I hate that.

But for me, that's what I really enjoy doing.

Bigger the audience, the better.

Commanding a stage, making sure it runs smoothly.

I did a three day conference for a big software vendor that previously had had just like overrun.

And they'd been in the.

Still in the meeting room, 8 o' clock in the night, 9 o' clock at night, getting through the agenda and they asked me to moderate it.

Right.

So I did.

And I said to them at the start, who wants to be here at 8 o' clock, 9 o' clock in the evening?

Nobody did.

So I Said, okay, let's run to time then.

And then the first, the first coffee break.

I said, right, the first table back, the CEO of the software company will give that table a present, a prize, a congratulations.

Yeah.

You know, all the tables were back when they needed to be.

That whole three days ran exactly to time except one presentation.

Yeah.

Which is when I gave.

Unfortunately.

Yeah.

Overrun.

But everything is really good.

So I love moderating, presenting, connect and also connecting people.

Yeah.

I love networking.

I can network a room all day long and for me it's about connecting people to realize something, realize the potential, realize opportunities.

But people, I love to saying, introducing someone to someone else and say, this person is really interesting.

Yep.

And then just walking away.

Yeah, yeah.

Because that's enough for them to go, oh, actually, why are you interesting?

Yeah, yeah, I think, am I interesting?

And then there's a debate in the end, etc.

So, so that's what I love doing.

That's what I do now.

Do it all over the place.

And that's my, my reason for being in terms of work.

And then Camelot is, is my passion.

Because if Camelot has helped me, then I would like to help many, many other people.

Yeah.

In that way as well.

So when did that change from doing what would be classed as the kind of atypical technology type stuff that you would have done?

I guess when you moved from Hiscox into the advisory stuff, you.

You were doing more of a typical kind of contracting interim type stuff, were you?

Or was it, was it purely advisory stuff at that point?

It was mainly advisory.

Yeah.

But I originally I thought, okay, I better take anything that comes along because it might not work, et cetera.

And then I soon realized, actually, no, I don't need to.

I'm in control of my, my own destiny now.

In fact, I remember the first, first not, you know, Monday that I left Hiscot's, my wife said to me, should we go for lunch?

I said, no, I know, because we.

I need to.

He said, you need to do what?

I said, oh, actually, yes, I can go for lunch.

Yeah.

And it's quite a mindset change.

So I, I now do what I want to do.

Um, and so that, that transition was, was over a period of time realizing actually if I am playing to my strengths, playing to my own authentic self, then that can be successful.

And also people either like it or they don't.

Yeah, that's, that's fine.

That's okay.

If, if I, I used to think, okay, I must do a job really, really well.

And you know, and then I thought myself, actually, if I don't do a job well, then I'll just go.

Okay.

Don't worry.

Sorry about that.

I won't bill you.

Yeah, I don't have to anybody's permission not to bill.

I just.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I've never been in that situation, but it relieved the pressure on me to go and actually give something a go.

Yeah.

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Now let's get back to today's episode.

Yeah.

So you, so now, now what, what's the split of your time that you, you spend in regards to kind of running Camelot and, and that as a, as a business?

I guess that now it's 150 plus people.

It takes, takes some, some running and some amount of your time compared to being out doing the, the moderator speaking, all that kind of stuff.

So I do a lot of moderating and speaking at Camelot events.

Right.

Okay.

So it's combined but most of my time is on, on Camelot now that the network's grown considerably.

We've got our corporate partners, we've got our, our consulting business which is really taken off which I'm sure we'll come on to.

And, and that's most, most of my time now.

And for me it's not work, it's just continuing theme of helping people.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

So let's, let's talk while you're on that.

Let's talk about what Camelot looks like now and and, and, and what the, the kind of business is doing, what it's aiming to do, where, where the, the, the kind of key parts of it are.

And, and I'm sure there'll be some, some stuff that we can get into on that as well.

Sure.

So for me, camera is, is fantastic because it's doing things differently right now.

I like to challenge the status quo, try things out if it works, do more of it if it doesn't stop.

And so for the three kind of main areas, we do things differently as firstly, we've kind of created an environment, a space where being an independent advisor isn't a lonely job anymore.

Yep.

It's actually legitimized, it's given it credibility.

So we have over 150 Camelot experts, all independent advisors, but under the sort of banner umbrella or indeed round table of Camelot.

And that has been a phenomenal success because coming out, sometimes coming out of the corporate world is not a smooth process and we help people walk tall, walk tall as an independent advisor, walk tall as their true authentic self and be successful.

So doing things differently in terms of the camel experts also something I really struggled with was how solution providers, tech vendors, data vendors, et cetera, would mis.

Communicating, mismatch their comms to insurance companies.

I used to get it a lot when I was at Hiscox and previously and then I was helping tech vendors and there was just disconnect.

So we have over around 30 corporate partners.

We help, we train them in insurance.

We do a, like a Dragon's Den road test where we get people who used to be their target market in the room and they present to them and then we give them really good feedback.

Right.

Their baby's ugly.

If the baby's beautiful town is beautiful.

Yeah.

So the road test we do exec breakfast.

In fact I did one this morning, top of the Gherkin executive kind of round tables.

And we, we have this corporate partnership scheme where we are helping them speak the language of insurance and we help insurers select the right technology partners.

So when you say partners are these, are these technology vendors consult other consulting firms that type, those types of businesses.

Yep.

And you're essentially kind of, yeah.

You're providing a bridge between your network which I guess are predominantly insurance leadership, previous executives, et cetera, et cetera, and teaching them how to engage better with them.

And I guess the insurers how to get the best out of their suppliers.

Definitely, definitely makes sense.

One of the things that tech vendors love to talk about is the features and functions the shiny tech.

Yeah.

And I, I loved saying, no, no, no, don't fall in love with your tech.

Fall in love with the solution that you provide, the business problem you're solving.

Yeah.

Speak their, like that language of the insurance company, but how they can solve their problems in a way that they can then go, yeah, okay, this, this vendor gets us, they get their problem and they can generally help it.

The tech will follow later.

But actually that, that connection is so and so important.

So we do a lot of training for our, of our corporate partners in getting that language relating to the business problem they're facing and that they're solving.

And it works, it works a dream because for the insurers, understanding the technologies that are out there, the innovations that are out there is really, really important.

You can't just keep within your confines of, of where you work.

You need to be looking out.

So we bridge that gap in a new, different way.

And so, and is that the, is that what is now the, is the consulting business obviously separate to that?

Is it.

So the consultants business is separate?

Yeah, that's the third way we're doing things differently.

Right.

I, when I was in the insurance world and previously the default was to bring in the big consultancy.

Yes.

And just the blue chips.

And I thought, okay, this, this model isn't giving enough value to the customers.

So I thought, how can we do it differently?

How can we generally do it differently?

So the consulting business started a year and a half ago and it has been phenomenally successful because we say actually rather than getting in the big consultancies, bring us in because we've actually walked the path you're about to walk on.

Yeah, we've actually been in the shoes you are wearing.

We've been there, we've done it, we've got the experience, we've got the learnings.

We have no graduates, so we can't bring them in.

And we actually know perhaps more about insurance than maybe you do, or at least the same amount based by insurance.

So it's a real differentiator to bring us in where we can understand the problem, solve the problem in very pragmatic ways and then help implement it.

And I guess the majority of those consultants that are working for you are not ex consultants, they're ex industry people.

Therefore, the, the, the kind of, the negativity attached to some consulting kind of ways of working, I.

E.

The graduate type thing and all that kind of stuff is you're putting in much smaller teams that are more experienced people that have, like you say, been there and done that type of work.

So instantly the, the.

I imagine that the building a relationship with someone like that is significantly easier because you build a relationship with someone who's probably was you a few years ago or something like that, and there's, there's a lot more common ground.

Is that, is that what you said?

That's it.

And I'd wish I'd been able to tap into that skills resource, that knowledge base when I was at, when I was at Hiscox.

Now people can, they can tap in and be it claims, underwriting, operations, data, it, whatever, whatever area, be it London market, specialty, general insurance, personal lives, health, life, pension, we've got all those areas covered by people who've actually been there.

And these people have either have decided to leave the corporate world at the peak of their career.

Yeah.

All that knowledge, all the expertise and they're going, how can I help?

Yeah, yeah.

And so how does that work?

Does that, is that, is that predominantly through like an associate kind of network?

Like you've got a big group of associates or do you have, if you built kind of a perm, employee base of that, built out that consultancy or both?

How does it work?

So going back to the, the idea of the King Arthur's Round Table, yeah, We have a Camel Experts who are all sort of, I suppose, associates of Camelot, we call them Camel experts.

Right.

They all run their own, have their own limited liability companies or their own entities.

They're independent but can tap into this sort of banner umbrella of Camelot.

And then I have a small team that runs Cameron both from a network and consulting side of things.

But the majority, for all the people that our customers are tapping into are people who used to be the chief operating officer or chief underwriting officer or the chief data officer, et cetera, et cetera.

And so do you find that ultimately what happens then is you go in and you just put a couple of people in there that are at a senior level.

So you're not going to do in the, the kind of big teams of people or anything like that, like some of the big consultancies may do.

You're, you're just providing the really kind of niche, deep technical or kind of industry type expertise that can go in one or two people and they lead the engagement rather than going and kind of taking on a big implementation project or something like that where they might need 40 or 50 people.

That's right, yep.

Yeah, we don't have those 14, 50 people, project managers, bas, et cetera, but we're providing expertise and advisory services generally at a very high level.

That sets the tone, sets the direction.

What we also do is work alongside insurers to help them do their vendor selection and implementation.

Because if someone's got the scars of the last implementation, you want them around your governance table.

Yeah.

And also where a large insurer is bringing one of the big four in, they can also bring us in to make sure that the big four are doing the right thing.

Yeah, just kind of oversight.

Yeah, yeah, makes sense.

So let's kind of evolve that into what.

So you're in obviously quite a unique position now, you and your.

And the rest of the team that you're still you.

You get quite a.

An overarching view of what's going on.

Insurance, what are the key topics?

So it'd be good to get into kind of one or two of the.

The things that you're being asked about.

I can probably hazard a guess on a couple of them, but it'd be.

Yeah, it'd be really interesting to understand what the biggest problems you're seeing kind of being tabled at the moment and where you're.

Where you're.

Where you're kind of adding value on that front.

Yeah, sure.

So there is obviously a lot of hype about AI in a few places is actually being used, but there's a tremendous amount of AI hype about it and these things come and go.

I think with AI, it's more likely to stay than not.

If you think about the hype cycle of blockchain a few years ago, I think AI isn't going to fall into that same trough of disillusionment, but that's a big area.

But the AI.

I was running a executive breakfast this morning in the top of the Gherkin.

The topic was AI, but the topic soon got onto the AI is only as good as the data it's got.

So actually the insurance industry has got a huge opportunity to improve its data.

How does it do that?

Well, it does it through standards, through making sure the data, you pass on data that's been cleansed, it's been validated, it's been augmented and that it starts actually with the customer feeding through to the broker if it's intermediated, and then through to the insurer and then the reinsurer.

At the moment, there's so much reanalysis and re keying.

There's a huge opportunity to get the data sorted in order for AI then to do what it's there and does what it does really, really brilliantly.

Yeah, so that was one of the conversations this morning, literally.

But how to get the data right.

Yeah.

It's interesting you say that because, I mean, I've said that in my line of work.

We've certainly seen that the kind of big leap forward in AI has actually meant that people have looked at that and then actually taken a step back and done what they should have already been doing with data.

But it's just put that even more front and center now.

So from a hiring trends perspective, we've just done a big research piece actually and, and without doubt the, the biggest, biggest pull at the moment is for resources around data leadership, data strategy, that type of thing.

Because.

Because of.

Exactly.

You can't really do anything interesting with, with the AI stuff until you get your, your data estate in order.

And as most insurers are not particularly where they need to be on that front.

That's, that's.

So it's almost put that more in the focus rather than, rather than the AI discussion because it's the precursor to make it happen.

So you've seen a similar thing.

I think there is an opportunity to kind of bundle the two together.

Yeah.

Because if you say, hey, we've got to sort our data out, people go, well, okay, but what's the benefit?

Yeah, well, the benefit comes when you then apply the AI and you know, real A and not rpa robotic process automate, but real AI.

And you're seeing that in your, in your personal life where you can just go on to Gemini or wherever and it's just phenomenal capabilities if it's got the data.

Yeah.

And so the opportunity within using AI within insurance is huge.

Huge claims, underwriting, pricing, it's got huge opportunity if the data is right.

And so you've got to have.

In partnership together.

Yeah.

What about away from the AI discussion?

Are there any other kind of hot topics for you at the moment where you'll get, you're getting asked for help.

Yep.

So we're starting to see a softening in the market to reducing premiums.

And in those situations the focus moves to, okay, how can I maintain combined operating ratio?

Which means focusing on the expense ratio.

So we're hoping a number of insurers at the moment really look at their target operating model.

How can they get more with less cost and particularly being able to scale without adding headcount.

And so we're in a big tier one personal lines insurer at the moment, helping them save quite a few millions just through bringing in best practice, fresh approach and not pie in the sky stuff.

It's stuff that people have implemented elsewhere and bringing it in to be able to benchmark against what other people are doing and then implement it is hugely successful.

So yeah, cost optimization, cost efficiency, speed to market speed, to quote those sorts of things we're seeing a lot of.

And is that, is that more around kind of business processes or is that utilizing technology or A bit of both, yeah.

The opportunity is there to really do more with less, be quicker, provide a better service, better customer experience.

And because the customer's expectations are changing every day because they're being driven by, you know, their experience with Google, Apple, etc.

Yeah.

And so that the drive is there for customer experience perspectives as well.

But also changing the way that insurance products are distributed.

Brokers creating more broker facilities so where insurers can then bid, bid on work almost like a price comparison website.

New opportunities to get products to market through embedded insurance, for example, or new business models like usage based or parametric insurance.

There's lots and lots of opportunities out there if you know, if you've got the ability to go, okay, what's my priority?

And who can I have to help me steer my way through that?

And I guess from your perspective of all the stuff that you and the wider network that you're running are involved in, what do you see as the, as the kind of the future over the next kind of 6, 12, 18 months of what's going to be big important, it's going to drive conversation in the insurance space?

I think there's a few things.

Firstly, focus on the customer.

Really, really focus.

People talk about it a lot.

Then they go, how do you like your annual policy?

Yeah, actually I don't want an annual policy, I want the policy.

I want a policy I want to cover when I need it.

So really focusing on the customer number two, you can't get away from this data issue.

Common standards that you adhere to, that everyone adheres to.

Look, you know, in the retail business, supermarkets, everyone has agreed the size of a bread basket because if you get the size of the bread basket right, then the lorries will be right.

And then you can interchange the lorries and the bread basket then in stacks in the, in the storage area and everything's done based on the size of a.

And if you can do that for bed baskets in retail, the opportunity for us in insurance is huge.

So getting a data right, I think it's going to be huge.

I think there are going to be some big winners who use AI companies who have either put a layer above their legacy systems or have replaced the legacy systems and have got the data sorted out will be flying with AI and we'll see some leaders in that space and yeah, that's going to be exciting exciting area.

Do you think that's because I've often thought that the insurance space doesn't really like you do in lots of industries.

You mentioned supermarkets.

I know that there's obviously much fewer supermarkets than there are insurance businesses but certainly in most industries there tends to be at any one time like a real out and out leader or two or three that kind of kind of duke it out for, for leadership whether it be tech businesses, supermarkets, etc.

Etc.

And then there's normally a couple of challenges.

The kind of the Lidls and the Audis etc of the world to use the supermarket analogy in insurance that's, that doesn't.

There's never really been such a differentiate that that really happens.

I know there's insurance businesses that perform better the BCS of the world etc.

Do you see?

I've.

I was having a conversation with someone the other day about that exact point around the businesses that have got their tech in a really good shape and possibly some of the, maybe the newer entrants to the markets.

I had Krishnan from Mosaic on here a couple of, a couple of weeks ago.

They're obviously kind of relatively new business, lots of new tech you'd think be well positioned to take advantage of the modern tech around AI.

Do you think that will be a kind of seminal moment of where maybe a few people businesses that go really hard on that and can, can go above and almost become this kind of super insurers like they're in tech firms or something like that.

Is that, is that kind of a, a pipe dream or like is that, is that, is that a reality do you think?

So in, in one of my presentations I give, I, I say that you know there's, there's a, there's a slide that says Amazon open store in, in uk.

Yeah.

And I forget the date when it is and then the next slide says Amazon closes store in uk.

Yeah.

So actually doing insurance is difficult not just because it's regulated, because it's just usually complex.

Yeah, yeah.

But the opportunity is huge because the insurance industry is huge.

There are multiple players.

You talk about big players.

So you know from a broker space as Armarsh Adonna, you know, howdens etc.

They're big, big players and then there's hundreds, hundreds of other brokers but the big insurers also are going okay, let's, let's if we can't innovate, could we partner with someone who does innovate?

And so the growth of the MGA managing general agent market has been phenomenal because then the big players can give some of their capacity to underwrite to a smaller player, normally a niche player in a particular product area.

Yep.

Trial that out.

If it works great, do more of it or indeed buy the mga.

So that, that is a great way of innovating whilst you protect your brand as well.

Yeah.

Interesting.

So let's move on to a little bit about them independent.

Being an independent advisor.

And obviously you mentioned about the kind of.

You've helped 600 or people plus it.

I'd love to dip into a bit of that knowledge and, and, and I'm sure there'll be people listening to this that are kind of you when you were leaving Hiscox and had similar, similar mindset.

What, what are the kind of two, three, four bits of advice you'd give?

And, and, and actually what would be really good to get is just kind of the, the warts and all like, because there's, there's almost certainly some difficulties around doing it as well and, and just keeping it a real.

And the reality would be great as well.

Let's cover the warts.

Yeah.

So I always want, as part of my, my listening to someone is I get a feel for their sort of financial commitments.

Yeah.

Because if you've got, still got a big mortgage, you've got private education, you got, you know, car, cost of cars, a private car, then then basically it's another way of saying do you need the certainty of income at the end of the month?

Yeah.

And then if they say yes, then I say, well, maybe not.

Independent consulting is perhaps not for you, but a lot of people have reached a point where actually earning the next bit of money isn't as important as it was previously.

Either the kids have got through university or the house or they've had a payout from a corporate role, they go, well actually, yes, I could go and get another corporate role, but do I really want to.

So it's an opportunity to do something different.

So yes, the water.

Yeah.

The financial is not a promise of income.

There will be times.

August, December, limited work because people are on holiday or celebrating in the pub.

But then there will be times when there's a peak of activity and you'd be really, really busy.

I think the, there's a few bits of advice I give.

In fact, I've run a training course on how to start out as an independent consultant, one of the big things we talk about is, why are you doing it?

Is it to earn lots of money?

Actually, is it to help people?

Is it to make a difference?

Is it to only work two, three days a week in order for you to do other things?

What's the why.

Why you're doing it?

And then I talk about the three interconnecting circles.

One is, what's the market need?

What's out there?

That the challenges people are facing and they're struggling to solve it.

What's the market need?

The other circle is, what are you really good at?

What is Mark really, really good?

You cut them open.

It just comes naturally.

You've got the experience, knowledge.

What do you really.

What's your core competency?

Do you think?

Do you feel people can answer that?

Because obviously, in my line of work, I ask people that most days.

Right.

And.

And I'm always amazed at how.

How people are often quite stumped on that, on that question.

And it's probably more because they haven't really thought about it rather than they can't answer it, but they.

They.

Yeah, they haven't necessarily thought about.

And I guess in.

In that world, when you're suddenly having to sell yourself every day, that's.

That's pretty core and essential.

It is core and essential, but not as difficult as the third circle.

Right.

Okay.

That's really difficult.

What's that?

So we've got the market need.

Yeah.

We've got the core competency, what someone's really good at.

Yeah.

And the third one is what are you passionate about?

Yeah, yeah.

What gets you motivated?

What gets you inspired?

What gets you up on that cold winter morning, get into, you know, into work?

What's.

What.

What is it that really drives you?

Yeah, yeah.

And for me, it's easy.

I help people.

I love.

I love helping people.

Yeah.

Do it.

And I love also moderating.

And that's.

That's my thing.

I love it.

Yeah.

And so I get people to go, what's the market need?

What are they really good at?

And what are they passionate about?

And it's great because I'm just asking them, is there.

There's no right or wrong them to think it through?

And often it's the first time they've had to think about it.

Yeah.

Because it's their options, is their.

What are they gonna do?

What do they want to do?

And it's not an easy, easy thing to answer.

And what certainly helped me, and I advise people, is to say, go ask your partner.

Are you really good at what's your passion?

And see, but then if you can answer that question and get something that there's a market need for, you're really good and you're passionate about, you will fly.

Yeah.

No question.

You will fly.

And it won't feel like work either.

Yeah, exactly.

Would you say the, the hardest thing about making the transition would be.

The hardest thing is overcoming your self doubt, your lack of self confidence.

Yeah.

I've seen many people who for whatever reason have come out of the corporate machine with what I call corporate bruising.

Different manifestations, different intensities, but there's often some kind of, you're not good enough, you haven't done this, or you've been the scapegoat for this or whatever and, or you've tried to be the corporate version of yourself.

It's not quite worked and therefore there's been some rubbing, some friction and so that corporate bruising is sometimes, you know, severe.

And I love helping people walk tall as their true authentic self to get away from that sort of little, you know, voice on your shoulder saying, that's not going to work.

No, it's going to mess up again.

No, don't then don't do it.

So the biggest challenge is actually giving it a go.

Yeah.

And I say to people, well, what's the worst thing that can happen?

Just give it a go for six months.

Yeah.

See what happens?

The worst is you'll have built your network, you'll have understood what works and what doesn't work.

And you can always go back into the corporate world if you want to.

And so people try it and they do that six months and suddenly it's great.

And people always, always often undervalue themselves, underprice themselves.

They think, oh, I'll price based on my time.

So.

No, no, you price based on the value you're going to deliver.

And that comes back to the three circles.

So undervalued they'll under price.

But you do it after a year or two and you realize, actually I'm really good at this.

Yeah.

Because you found your niche and you're doing it really well.

And I guess that's where your network helps.

Right.

With regards to even the basic stuff like pricing and stuff like that.

You can, you could, you've got a network of people who have been there and done it, who can advise and help with that, with that kind of stuff.

How would you find people?

Because one of the, the, the fairly.

And I think it was, I know, you know, Helen, who was on the Podcast before, I think she said it, that, that actually that transition into what is a role where your, your kind of day and your work is set out for you in a corporate world because you have an agenda or something to deliver or whatever to then having to create your own work, I I E.

Sell yourself, your experience and stuff like that is, is quite, is quite a change for someone who's not used to selling.

And, and also the fact that you always have to be kind of positioning yourself and that kind of thing.

How have you, how do you find people take to that?

Is it, is that, is that kind of a learned skill to be able to do that?

Or if you find what you're good at and passionate about, then actually maybe that, that comes a bit, bit easier because you're just talking about what you, what you do and what you're great at.

One of the, one of the, one of the hurdles is oh my goodness, I've never had to sell myself.

Yeah.

And I say don't.

Yeah, don't sell yourself.

Right.

Because I hate, I don't like people being selling to me.

I really, really don't.

I'd much rather people help me become a buyer of their services.

Completely different mentality.

So in Camelot we talk about training people to how do you don't sell yourself.

How do you help people become buyers of your services, become interested in what you're doing and come to you and say, hey Mark, can you, can you come in?

Help us with this?

We've got this need.

Can, can you come in?

Yeah, rather than hey, can I, can I come in?

I want to come in.

So we don't, don't sell.

We create buyers.

And the best way to create a buyer is to be sure about a.

Who are you the go to person for?

Yeah.

Of all the things that are happening in the insurance world, what problem do you solve and for whom?

So nail that.

Yeah.

And then secondly, be really, really curious.

Listen to other people.

People, the topic most people love talking about themselves.

Yep.

And so if you give someone a jolly good listening to and really genuinely listen and only then after you've listened to them go, okay, think to yourself, how can I genuinely help them?

Yeah.

Not sell, genuinely help them.

And you know what, if you've empathized, if you've listened and you're genuinely trying to help people, people respond to that.

Yeah.

I think it's also playing the long term game as well with stuff like that, isn't it?

Positioning yourself as a kind of key person.

Roi yeah.

No, in this business Is ROR return on relationship.

Yeah.

Build a relationship.

And at some point they'll pick up the phone and go, hey, Mark, come in, we need you.

Yeah, definitely.

Well, look, we're moving towards the end now.

I've got some quick fire questions for you.

So the first one is which brand or company do you most admire and why?

So I've given this a lot of thought.

Okay.

And the brand and company that I most my is Camelot.

Okay.

Because I've created.

You're gonna have to get.

You're gonna have to give me a reason why.

Reason why is because I've driven it from values, not rules, not regulations.

The values.

And the biggest value we have is you help others first.

Yeah.

And you know what?

The world goes around in circles and it's been brilliant and it's grown all through word of mouth and we're, it's huge that the consulting business has really taken off.

The network's taken off.

We're connecting the ecosystem of solution providers.

I love the brand.

It's my brand, I've created it.

And for me the integrity of the brand is everything.

And so generally I love the brand.

Of course there's others around, but that's.

Why I think, I think you're allowed to, I think you're allowed to mostly buy your own brand.

Like to think the same about my company in 10 years time, whatever it is.

What said while we're on that, what's.

What's kind of next for.

For Camelot?

Like what's the.

I should have probably asked you that before, but what's the.

What do you, what do the next kind of few years look like?

Is that.

Is there any kind of other further ambitions or is it just continue to grow and evolve the, the three areas you're in at the moment?

Certainly I continue and grow three areas.

I've would love to expand Camelot geographically.

Yeah.

Is it just UK at the moment then?

It's uk, bit of Europe, bit of us.

Yep.

And so to create a version of Camelot in Europe, a version of camelot in the US, Asia, etc.

That's a possibility.

And then also if Camelot as a model works in insurance, why wouldn't it work in other industries?

Yeah, definitely.

So that's the sort of vision for it.

But at the moment I'm so busy with the network, with the corp partners and the consulting business that's really taken off, then those, those, those things will need to come in the future.

And they're all.

I mean, from what you're saying, there's that most of them only been going for a couple of years.

Right.

So there's, there's loads of Runway with, with them.

If you've got 150 consultants at the moment, that could, that could quite easily be thousands.

Right.

I mean that's, that's, there's plenty of work to go into that, I guess.

Indeed.

And the insurance industry is a big industry.

It's also a small industry because everybody knows each other.

Yeah.

But it's a big industry and the opportunity to make a difference, make a really positive difference is huge.

And I do feel that we have a compelling leading edge offering for insurance companies to tap into people who've been there and done it.

I think that's market leading.

No one else has got it that I'm aware of and it's proving really, really successful.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree with you.

I think it's a great model.

The, the one piece of advice you wish someone had given you when you were first starting out.

Take more risk.

Yeah.

Yep.

I've tended in my careers to stay where I've been and I, I wish I'd take more risk being a bit more true to myself.

Yeah.

My true authentic self and, and, and have more self confidence.

Yeah, yeah.

It's, I think the risk thing, lots of people going to that camp and there'll be a hell of a lot of people in there.

Next one is if you could switch jobs with one person for a day, who would it be?

Oh, golly.

So myself, my family have supported a missionary school in, in India for 30 odd years.

Yeah.

And I went out there last January as we often do.

And so the head teacher of this school is a phenomenal lady and I would love to swap places with her just to experience thousand children.

The pleasure she gets, the challenges she has and the passion by which she works.

It's brilliant and it's, it's having such a positive impact in a poor area of Chennai.

Yeah.

I would love to, I'd love to be in her shoes.

Completely different, wouldn't it?

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, next one is.

Are you a big reader?

A little bit, yeah.

Best, best kind of business related book or kind of non, non fiction book you've ever read.

So there's a fantastic book called not the Go Getter.

It's called the Go Giver.

Okay.

And it's just a short book and it's a, like a fable about a story about this sales guy wanting to do more sales and really get up and be successful and he wasn't being successful.

And it.

And is this wise sort of chairperson chairman who gives them advice, he says turn on his head.

How can you help someone and genuinely help them?

And that book, I read it after I'd created Camelot, but it resonated so much with me.

There's.

There's various principles about the.

That your value is not your value but the value you create in other people.

Yeah.

That's how you measure your success.

How many value created genuine value.

Not how much money you've earned.

It's the value creating other people.

So, yeah, go get the go giver.

Yeah, yeah.

I've just read a book actually called the Challenger.

So I'll give a shout out to Kim Gray, who gave me that book, but she.

That that book's very similar.

It's a bit more.

It's a bit more structured in regards to an approach, but it's.

It's about kind of understanding, like giving back to your.

To your client or customer or potential prospect and position yourself as a kind of, like you say, a person that can really help them rather than just trying to constantly sell.

So it's.

I'll check that one out as well.

The.

If you could wave a magic wand and change one thing about insurance, would it be a long list?

Is it having one picking one?

Yeah.

I think insurance does a phenomenal job.

It's there when people need.

Does a brilliant.

But it gets it.

Sometimes it gets bad press, but generally it does a phenomenal job.

I think the one thing it can do if I had a magic wand, was just get the data sorted out right from the customer all the way through to the capacity provided to the reinsurer and therefore provide better services, better opportunities for innovation, lower cost, more focus on the customer because the data just flows through.

It's not a challenge, boardrooms don't go wrong type thing.

I.

I think it's a.

It's one of those boring topics, but it's a necessary topic.

So things like standards, adhering to standards, not thinking you can do your own thing.

Well, actually it's.

Let's club together and do do things.

I think for me that's.

That's one thing.

It's difficult and that's why it's a magic wand.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Who is the person you most admire in the world?

I think it's this head teacher in India.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I was going to say.

Is it?

Yeah, no question.

Yeah.

She's passionate to help the children and do the right thing.

That's the person I most admire.

How did you have Interest.

How did you get into that?

You say it was your family?

No, it's not a work related thing.

So in about 92, 1992, my father saw.

Saw someone, met someone by chance in Plymouth where he lived.

Is that where you're from originally?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And he said, oh, we'd like to come back for lunch.

And he did.

And they said, oh, he was a visiting professor from India, from Chennai.

And my dad said, well, is there anything we can do to help in India?

He said, well, actually there's this missionary school that's just burned down.

Wow.

Why don't you raise some money for that?

And he did, and then went out to visit a number of times.

We created a sponsor a child scheme.

So for £15amonth in the UK, you can pay for the education of a child in India.

And Camelot's social responsibility project this year is to fund a new assembly hall for this school in Chennai.

Amazing.

Okay, great.

And then the final question, always the same, is, what's the thing you love most about insurance?

So I love insurance because it's a people business.

Yep.

It works on relationships.

There are phenomenal quality of people in the insurance world.

I love it.

It's difficult and that's why it's difficult to get into it in for a.

Competitors come in.

But actually it's an industry that helps people when they need it most.

It's great relationships.

It's.

It's almost like a family.

Yeah.

And I think it's got huge potential.

Is also ubiquitous.

It's everywhere.

You know, I remember Hiscox had a poster in one of the corridors that said, you don't need to be a rocket scientist unless you're insuring rockets.

Yeah.

So actually it's everywhere.

So.

So insurance is as much about the risks that everybody has as the process of, of insurance.

And yeah, I love it because you've got opportunities to make the world a better place.

Yeah.

And why wouldn't you do that?

Amazing.

Well, great way to finish.

Well, thank you so much for making some time to have a chat.

It's been, it's been great.

I'm sure there will be some people that want to get in touch about Camelot or maybe even just to chat to you directly.

What's the best way, if anybody does want to get involved in Camelot or they're in.

They're looking to go independent or anything in that kind of way.

And what's the, what's the best way to get hold of you or the business?

Just on LinkedIn message me.

Yeah.

Love to have a chat.

Yeah.

And see if I can help them.

Yeah, sounds good.

Well look, thanks for making some time.

As I say, more episodes coming so like comment, subscribe, subscribe, etc and David and I will catch you soon.

Cheers David.

Cheers.

Thank you.

And that's it for today's episode of beyond the Desk.

I really hope you enjoyed hearing from today's guest and that you've taken away some valuable insights to fuel your own career journey.

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Thanks again for tuning in and I'll catch you next time.

Time for an another inspiring conversation.

Until then, take care and keep pushing the limits of what's possible in your own career.

This podcast is sponsored by Invector Search, the brand new search solution to guide you in finding the best insurance leadership talent globally.

Find out more at www.invectorgroup.com.

Sam.