Mike & Debbie James: I never worked harder, longer, more stressful days

in my entire life than the entire year of 2020 that went right into 2021.

It was.

gangbusters.

So the truth is, by the time we got to the spring in 2022 and Debbie

is the one that finally was like, I don't think I could take this anymore.

Um, uh,

How do you build a successful real estate empire in one of

Florida's most coveted coastal regions?

On today's episode of Seat Go Create the Leadership Journey, we're joined by

our longtime friends and seasoned real estate experts, Mike and Debbie James.

With over 20 years of experience in the beautiful 38 area of the Florida

Panhandle, they've recently shifted focus from managing a vacation rental

company to expanding their investment portfolios and sharing their insights

via YouTube and a forthcoming podcast.

Having worked closely with Mike and Debbie on various projects over the last probably

20 to 25 years, and even coaching them at times through some of their ventures.

We will dive into their journey from hands on property renovations to

mastering the luxury real estate market and successfully exiting a company.

We'll uncover the secrets to their success and their tips for others

looking to navigate the complex world of real estate investment.

Mike and Debbie, good to see y'all.

Mike & Debbie James: Hey, Tim.

Hey, Tim.

Good to see you too.

Thanks for having us.

I know I'm excited to be on here.

One of our biggest challenges we were talking about before we hit record is

to keep this to a somewhat focused and timely conversation because we can get

on some conversations and get going.

And, uh, I'm sitting here working on this going, dang, these we've

known each other for, was that right?

25 years, 25 years ish.

Mike & Debbie James: I think you're right.

And when you said that, it it was almost a sucker punch, wow,

we've known each other that long.

We've been through a lot.

I

We won't cover all of that here.

Maybe a little bit of it.

the amazing thing is, we're only in our early thirties that we've

obviously known each other for that.

Mike & Debbie James: knew I liked you.

We met you at a comedy house, right?

You were on stage with a mic.

yeah.

So anyway, all right.

One of the things I like to do when I have couples, which is rare, I

usually ask this question, just.

like a interesting icebreaker, what do you do?

But I think i'm going to let each one of you introduce the other just

say a couple things about the others.

I'll tell you what, Debbie Michael you start Um, you introduce me to debbie

just introduce the audience I know debbie but introduce the audience and

say whatever you'd like Just take a few seconds minute or whatever and then

debbie you're going to have to follow up So you got to say some nice stuff.

Michael.

Mike & Debbie James: There it is.

you, Debbie is my wife, obviously, but she is a very friendly,

sassy, smart, athletic, and expert at many things, business.

And, happy to have her as my partner, both in my personal life and our business life.

Yeah, that was really good, Michael.

I'm going to take notes on that and concise.

So I Debbie, your turn, introduce the audience to Michael.

Mike & Debbie James: Michael is my husband, of course, and he is honestly

one of the smartest people I know.

He's very business savvy.

He's funny.

We laugh every day.

He's also very athletic and my partner and we have worked together

for a while and we love that.

He ran our rental company for almost 10 years.

And, Is very detail oriented and, knows how to keep people motivated.

Very good.

I agree, man.

Both of y'all are in such tremendous ways.

I would say like wicked smart in certain areas and.

Golfers, pickleballers, all that kind of stuff.

Loving life down there.

Tell everybody where y'all are currently located and just give

us, each one of you can share on this, but give a little bit of a

commercial for the area that you're in.

So Debbie, why don't you start?

Mike & Debbie James: We are in Northwest Florida, which we are nearest town called

Rosemary beach, which is just West of Panama city beach and East of Destin.

It's called the Gulf coast or the Emerald coast.

We have white sands.

And it's, we live where people vacation is really a good description.

People are happy when they're here, they're fun.

And it's just a very laid back, relaxing type of lifestyle.

All right, Michael, you want to add anything to that?

that was pretty good pitch right there.

Mike & Debbie James: It was, we're not very well known because it's

difficult to get here via plane.

There's usually layovers.

So five and a half hours from Atlanta, four hours from

Birmingham, seven from Nashville.

We had a lot of drive to market traffic.

We're the second most driven to destination in the state

of Florida, other than Disney.

And really, truly it is unique because of the way that the ordinance was

done where it's 50 or four stories.

So you d it's not Miami, you don't everywhere, no commercial amazing

people from all o up to vacation where we a of a special unique

feel anywhere else in florida

And y'all went, I may have had years wrong, but

how long have y'all been there?

Mike & Debbie James: 2004, actually June of 2004.

So I just guessed at that.

I said, it seems like 20 years.

And I think we had met a handful of years before that.

And, gosh, 20, that is, that's a long time.

And I'm sure that area has changed quite a bit.

It is a beautiful part of the country.

And, I think one of the things some people are going to want to do from

this, conversation is maybe reach out to one or both of you get more information

and check on some real estate, check on some real estate in that area possibly.

But I wanted to start, this was the trigger for me wanting to have

this conversation with you guys.

I have a lot of clients, a lot of people I work with, and it seems

as if a lot of them are discussing and talking about not that they

want to get out of their business.

That's not it.

But.

They want to know what it looks like to move from maybe their

business to something else.

Or what does it look like in the future to exit?

Or, how do they transfer it from them to children and all this,

what does the future look like?

And I guess what a year or two ago, we can talk about the dates on it.

Y'all did something, we were working together.

I guess I was coaching and helping with some things and all that.

And, you COVID was sort of winding down and y'all were able

to do something really cool.

And that was someone came in and said, Hey, we'd like to buy.

The price was really good.

I thought I'd, I was a little bit of a naysayer.

I'll go ahead and say, I said, really, you think we can exit?

Y'all were able to exit.

So Debbie, give him a little bit.

Of your perspective, maybe leading up to that.

And then maybe i'll go over to michael maybe to talk some of the

details of it But just talk a little bit about where the business was As

we were we're heading to that point

Mike & Debbie James: So we had about 41 properties.

We grew organically and this is our vacation rental company,

and we were considered boutique.

Michael was running the company.

I was doing all the accounting along with doing all of my real estate.

And it's a business that just never stops.

It's a hotel like a hotel.

That's 24 seven, yet it really isn't 24 seven, but it is 24 seven.

And we had a handful of employees and trying to scale once COVID hit and

hiring employees got very difficult.

We couldn't get Michael out of the day to day because most of the, most of

our owners were my real estate clients.

And so we had the relationship and it was just, it was one of those type of

things that it got to the point where the stress, the health, his health.

we couldn't even have dinner without his phone going crazy.

And so we just knew we couldn't keep, it was not a sustainable business model

is you have taught us over the years.

so Michael take it from there And talk about your role kind

of some of the things you were doing and your day to day and And then maybe

anything else as we were heading into this exit event because I want us to

spend a little bit of time here because everybody has questions about exits.

It's all the time.

It comes up.

So I do want us to dig a little bit on this.

So it kind of pile on a little bit there and we'll keep going.

Mike & Debbie James: I'll stay on the high level for just for the moment,

which is that we reengaged with you, Tim, when we were about halfway through

that 10 year tenure of the company, and we knew we needed help growing.

Basically, I had been doing everything.

If anyone's ever hosted an Airbnb, imagine you're running about 30 of them

alone, literally with no employees.

So I had to do all the hiring of the employees.

There's a lot there.

It's a rabbit hole.

I won't go there.

So I basically reached out to Tim.

We reached out to Tim, reengaged, realized that he could help us

with coaching and marketing.

So really what happened there was trying to restructure things.

It was a tremendous help for him to identify the problems that I was the

problem doing everything myself, right?

Ideal team player, recommendations, things to do, how to hire, working

with the hires, the employees, coaching one of the employees or operations

manager, really curating, structuring the business to be more organized and

to try and get to a point where our life was a little bit more realistic.

And meanwhile, so effectively it's like having open heart surgery,

but the patient is awake, right?

And still has to use its arms and do things.

So it was very difficult.

And in that transition, it was, Amazing that we had him to lean on and also at

the same time because we were growing and scaling, it was tremendously difficult

and the pandemic was involved in that particular part of the late end of it.

But for us, it got to a point when we got into that 2022 timeframe.

Where we recognize that there was a lot of people that wanted to get into

the industry themselves and there was offers that were being made.

Debbie was sucked into the business so much more than it was actually inhibiting

her to do more real estate sales.

And the 2 of us just looked at each other and we were like, now's the time.

And we made the decision like, Right now is the time, even though we just

went through scaling up and hiring more employees and more, we were getting ready

for the next phase of growth when we realized the market was about to shift

and that possibly we're going to see some difficulty with the short term vacation

rentals with occupancy and supply.

So we took the opportunity at that time, which was an entire 90 days,

which Tim helped with also of us realizing, oh, my gosh, we have

to get all the financials in line.

We have to present this as best as we can to the investors for the exit.

But the timing for us was perfect because of the challenges of the employees, the

challenges of her being pulled away from what she loves to do in real estate.

And it allowed us to actually do the exit and the back end of that for me was very

difficult because when you're on a gerbil wheel that never stopped spinning, and

then all of a sudden it stopped spinning, for me, that was an interesting unwind.

I

thing, and maybe you do this, Michael, and I've got something

I want to follow up with Debbie, but I know you don't want to give exact

numbers or anything like that, unless you want to, but what can you tell us

about the financials of the acquisition type companies during that time,

the industry at that time, and Yeah.

I'll say it this way.

You could agree or disagree how y'all's timing was almost perfect.

I just say whatever you want to say about that.

Cause some people are going, yeah, it sounds like they may

have unloaded their company.

I don't know.

I don't think so.

Uh, but anyway, what can you say about that?

That might provide some information to someone listening in?

Mike & Debbie James: think that for us and an interesting when we first started

the company, we really didn't think about, we wanted to sell the company.

We really were building it.

to sustain it, to have it more of a residual income so that as we would, I

don't know if we'll ever retire, but it would be residual income, but we couldn't

get Michael out of the day to day.

So the timing for us was, we really nailed the top of the market as far

as selling a vacation rental company.

It was a time where it was just a very hot industry.

Our area was one of the hottest.

Vacation rental markets in the country.

And we really knew that we had to get a number that was going

to make sense for us to sell.

We probably got, and Michael could tell me if I'm wrong, we got probably double

of what we normally would have gotten.

Now, had we had 400 properties, yeah, we could have probably really

retired and traveled and whatnot.

But I think for us, it really gave us a good nest egg.

It put some cash in the bank.

we've been through the ups and downs and so for us, it was really nice to have

a nest egg to, to be able to do other things, even start planning for retirement

or what, slowing down may look like.

but yeah, it would have been a lot less had we either sold prior or after.

Yeah.

The timing, there is the Airbnb craze, right?

It's all of a sudden everybody's locked down.

And people were like, Oh, just get an Airbnb.

And everybody was traveling the United States.

Travel was going nuts domestically.

And then what happened was private equity started paying

attention and companies outside the industry started paying attention.

Airbnb was going through its IPO.

A lot of eyeballs hit the industry.

Short term vacation, rentals, vacation, rentals, whatever you want to call it.

So the acquisitions that traditionally have been four to five times

EBITDA, that would be that would traditionally be the payout.

There's different ways to actually structure it, but that's

one of the metrics that's used when we were going to market.

Companies were getting eight, nine, 10 times.

And even the company that we use to do the transaction, they were astounded that

when we put a number out there, it was pretty much met you were astounded Tim.

So it was pretty much 10 times EBITDA.

So we sold with 41 properties and the guy that we did our transaction,

he's guys, you're getting paid.

Like you had 82, you're basically getting paid.

Like in a traditional market.

You're, it's like 82 and Tim, now here we are two years and a month later

from our exit and we're back to four to five times EBITDA for the acquisitions.

So we actually, we got lucky on the exit.

it was beautiful.

I want to go back to something that Debbie, there's a couple of questions I

want to ask on this before we move on.

Debbie, you brought up a term that comes up often and it's residual income.

You and I, we met probably around a business, multilevel marketing,

stuff like that, 25 plus years ago that talked about residual income.

I interact with people all the time and talk about residual income.

Do we really think that residual income is a reality or is it some kind of pipe

dream that every, cause y'all were not.

we did a lot with this vacation rental business and it was awesome.

And we will talk about a few more things, but there was

nothing residual income about it.

Mike & Debbie James: No, that, that's funny.

you're

It is, but it isn't.

It's funny, but it's not funny.

Mike & Debbie James: I think if we were just like this hands off and

had somebody actually running the company, maybe once a day, twice a

day, Michael would get a phone call.

Then maybe it would have been residual, but when you're in it and your day

to day and you're working in the business on the business, you're right.

It really, I don't, maybe they're really, maybe I'm hopeful that one day we'll

find residual income, but you're right.

it's tough.

and the other thing that I observed, and we had a lot of, we

had a lot of discussions about this, but I see this with a lot of leaders,

a lot of people that are talented.

That they can do almost air quotes for those listening in.

I'm doing air quotes.

If you're watching the video, they could do almost everything that's involved

with the business and air quotes.

Again, they could almost do it better than anyone else that they could hire.

So that then opens up this kind of trap that.

Michael becomes, everything, customer service and all of that kind of stuff.

And Debbie, even though she's got her real estate over here, she's running

the finances, overseeing the money, making sure that Michael's trying to

stay healthy and all that kind of stuff.

and I do wonder.

If sometimes it's difficult, we ran into it.

I'll let y'all respond to this, that is sometimes difficult to move from

that place where we're doing almost everything to hiring people and

just getting beyond that barrier.

We discussed it a lot who either one of y'all want to come in or,

you respond to that, those thoughts.

Mike & Debbie James: I will say that.

In that process, probably the most beneficial thing that I had was one,

that we had a previous relationship with you, one with the multi level.

Then when we were doing real estate, I buy houses type stuff and renovations.

Etcetera.

So we had all this previous business history with you and now we're coaching.

So I was more open to hear you with guarded language.

Say you're the problem and you're the bottleneck and you need to be willing.

To get out of the way, get out of your own way.

So like a lot of that coaching and then hiring the right people, not

micromanaging them and understanding that whole process was a huge part

of actually scaling the business.

the exit of the business could not have been done as well as it was.

If we hadn't met you halfway into building the business, it is that simple

that it would have been messy and we would not have been as structured as

we were leading into that time frame when it was the perfect time to sell.

So one thing, and then I've got a follow up question related

to that for Debbie, but Michael, I think this would be a good time, and

I want you to just share whatever you're willing to share on this.

There were along the way health challenges that, that you dealt with.

I'm going to ask Debbie to say something about this too, so be

careful what you say, Michael.

what can you share about That, because listen, it's one thing to just be scaling

a company and, trying to hire people and have the phone ringing all the time.

That's one thing.

Another thing is when it starts, impacting some personality,

when it impact, causes some.

Health issues to rear up.

But I think it's important for business owners, leaders that are

listening in to hear you share a little bit about that journey.

Cause that was some of the discussion we would have had

very little to do with business.

It was like, we got to make sure Michael stays healthy.

say a little bit about that.

And then Debbie's going to follow up and tell the real story after

you share, whatever you share.

Mike & Debbie James: So there's really, it's a two prong situation.

One is actual health issue from the perspective of blood work was showing.

I was completely drained adrenals, completely drained testosterone.

And I kept getting told like, we could throw supplements at you

left and right, but you are on that phone, which is a trigger.

And it's triggering the dopamine.

It's triggering you constantly 12, 14, 15 hours a day that you

cannot get to a state of recovery.

Your body can't get to a state of recovery.

And then there's the whole secondary wave that happened during the pandemic,

where the stress levels for a multitude of reasons, and I could go down rabbit

holes, which I won't, but it was, in that time frame, having a business that

was impacted dramatically because we were in travel and we were in a state

where they shut down vacation rentals, the stress level got to a point where

I tried to calm my nerves at the end of the night, And just ended up drinking too

much several times, which led to a cycle of that was the way I was calming myself

down after the entire night was over.

A lot of times after Debbie had gone to bed, but that was creating

a whole new set of problem.

And that was those were 2 separate health issues.

And 1 was directly related to the stress that was involved with

interfacing with the public and employees during the pandemic.

The pandemic.

Yeah.

24 seven and just one thing on that.

And then you can respond.

Michael didn't go to Debbie.

Yeah.

You, it wasn't as, as if I don't consider you to have an addictive

nature or anything like that, but you were really just attempting to slow

things down is what my observation, we talked about this, you and I tried to

discuss it and then you, I think got some other help, but I don't, you aren't

necessarily a, an addictive nature person, but you were just attempting

to slow things down was my observation.

Is that kind of what was going on or?

Mike & Debbie James: It was, and when you're refunding millions of dollars of

advanced deposits and at the same time paying out employees and being shut down

by the government, effectively, it was something that I just didn't cope with.

I got it under control, but during that timeframe, right in the midst

of the pandemic, it absolutely was.

Very trying.

And then to watch other people around us talk about how they were shutting

their businesses down that they had for, heading back to Alabama to shut down the

restaurant because they couldn't operate and they were bleeding out, it was and

watching all that happened, trying to figure out how we were going to survive,

that was very difficult and very trying.

So it was.

a short period of time, in the grand scheme of things, but it was something

that was definitely difficult to navigate.

Yeah, definitely.

All right, Debbie.

What's your perspective on all that because I know that, I listen, we talk

about issues that like Michael would have gone through there, but I know it

was fairly gut wrenching for you also.

And, so what, from your perspective, what was going on?

Mike & Debbie James: It was tough.

It was tough, not only for me, but to see him going through

what he was going through.

And as we're refunding millions of dollars, and it took probably twice

as long for the banks to refund money.

People are calling Michael, screaming at him, cussing him out, telling him.

He's lying.

He didn't refund the money.

And it was like, people just lost their mind and look, nobody

knew what was going to happen.

We had just worked for seven, almost eight years growing our business.

And we didn't know if like overnight we were going to be done.

And it was, for us going through that as well, as other people

actually had to shut down.

We were very grateful that we could continue to pay our employees.

And wait it out with the stress between us, even his

husband and wife was not good.

we were arguing all the time and it was we were like a gerbil going in circles

with nowhere to go and no way to get out.

And so it was, Michael and I had some tough conversations during that

time and he did get some other help.

And I think from a health perspective, it was the right thing for us to do is.

As far as sell the company,

So one thing related to that, and we'll, I want to talk about

that whole March of 2020 time and in just a moment, y'all opened up that.

But Debbie, something that I always observed and you and I discussed

this quite often was that you were a successful real estate agent and

y'all had started this vacation rental company because they seem to

mesh together and fit together well.

And we still would say that, I believe.

But yet it is very difficult to spin a lot of plates.

we all would claim we're multitaskers and, I could run the finances of a vacation

rental company and run a lot of the operations and smile and say hello and go

show people property on a Sunday afternoon when they're visiting this beautiful area.

I know a little bit of behind the curtain.

Some people may not, but I, but talk about how challenging it is to wear all

those hats, because you and I talked about just things as simple as following

up on some leads that would come in because there's just exhaustion from

running 40 something companies and keeping up with everything and all of that.

So any, anything you want to say about that, because now you're a couple

of away, and I've seen, a thriving that we didn't see for a while.

Hopefully that's fair to say.

Mike & Debbie James: it is fair to say.

And I think we do think we can multitask and I think you've

really brought to our attention.

You know what you really can't.

And I think when we first started, look, I'm very grateful.

We started, I'm grateful.

We sold.

So we have learned a lot about the rental market and the ins and outs.

So I'm glad we took the journey.

if we did it all over again.

Which we won't, but if we did it all over again, there are certainly

things we would have done differently.

but we didn't have the money to pay people at the time to do things differently.

So I think as you fast forward, I couldn't, I'm a type A, I'm a kind of

a control, not I am a control freak.

And so when it came to the finances of the company, I had a lot of trouble thinking

about letting go and hiring somebody.

It's very easy to get caught up and then all of a sudden money

in your escrow, escrow account is gone and I didn't want that.

I wanted to be able to sleep at night in the almost 10 years we had the company.

I was never, ever late paying an owner, never.

That was, and we paid every week to our vendors.

And It was something I was very proud of because our vendors were

loyal, our owners appreciated it.

And yet again, I'm sure, and I know other companies have people that

handle the money, but it was doing that at night and then trying, and I

use that word try, which I don't like.

I was trying to do my real estate during the day and it starts to wear,

everything just starts to wear you down.

Where we don't really realize it until we're looking back.

And I say that because I thought I could do everything and I thought,

yes, you've got to be happy and cheery and on point, especially when I'm

talking with real estate clients and it's hard when you're tired, it's hard

to pick up the phone and really want to do something that I love to do.

And so after all this time, Tim, you are right.

It is very difficult to multitask.

So we're recording this.

We'll put a timestamp on something.

They tell you not to.

We're recording this kind of in mid summer 2024, about two

years ago is when you exited.

So we've got 24 months there.

And then about two years prior to that, we had this, That was COVID worldwide.

I had some, somebody called it the other day, global sickness.

It was this global sickness event, which actually is more accurate

than almost anything I've heard, but I've even shared this before.

I don't know if I've shared it on the podcast, but I vividly, Remember March

of 2020, some of the phone calls that we were having right around that time.

it was like March 13th.

Is that your birthday, Michael?

And you're in it right around that time.

And It was a Friday, the 13th that year, I remember.

And Thursday night, I believe we got on a call.

I had just gotten, I'd flown back from Orlando for some conference.

The world was shutting down around us.

You guys had a vacation rental company.

I think we've Thought there could be issues, but I don't think we really

understood what was about to happen.

Y'all have already shared a little bit, but let's go back almost four plus years.

And let's talk about specifically how you were able to handle that week.

I want to say one thing real quick before y'all either, whoever wants to jump in.

I do think that one of the reasons.

We, y'all survived was because of Michael's diligence in the way he

handled, uh, property owners and vacationers and things like that.

And because of the diligence in the way Debbie, you handled the finances and

those payments to vendors and things like that, because other people that were

just a little bit looser and sloppier.

Didn't make it.

So let's talk just for a few minutes about March of 2020, as

much as we maybe get cold sweats.

Anyway, which one of y'all want to start and give a perspective of

where you're at and what was going on then, and maybe some lessons learned.

Mike & Debbie James: I'm interested to hear her comment.

Let's hear Debbie from your perspective.

We never talk about this, Tim.

It's yeah, it's honestly, it's hard to believe it's been over four years now.

And I think one thing I do remember, Michael and I were out walking.

And we, I'm looking to my left.

We have a beautiful pond right next to our home and we were out walking and just.

It's trying to think and talk about everything that was happening.

And I said to Michael, I said, this is going to be the most

beautiful spring break ever.

And it was, the weather was absolutely gorgeous.

And I think that it was very eerie.

it was eerily quiet in one aspect, and yet it was eerily scary because

nobody knew what was going to happen.

And again, we're thinking, when are we going to make money?

When?

we had no idea from the rental perspective.

And even at that time, real estate, a little further along, I think

it was the governor, whoever deemed real estate is necessary.

So there were certain precautions we had to take and we could still show

property and we had to wear masks and wipe things down at one point.

But from the rental side, nobody knew when anybody was going to be able to

come back and stay in a vacation rental.

Was it a month, six months, a year?

And all we're thinking about is, okay.

We certainly refunded everybody's money.

And now it's like, how are we going to make any money?

What are we going to do to survive?

And I think that was also probably the second scariest, most stressful

time in our life, financial turmoil, I think was probably.

The first, but this was really either a close first or second.

And it was the fear of the unknown, not only for us, but for everybody.

Yeah.

I want to bring up something.

Then Michael, I want you to say something here.

Here's what I remember.

I remember having a conversation.

And, and Michael, I want you to give more detailed numbers on this.

people may not realize that in March of the year, a place that spring

break and summer is so critical.

People reserve their vacation rental place.

They pay a deposit.

Some of them pay in advance and other things like that.

And so all of that money.

Y'all had, hopefully, sitting in an account and then all of a sudden they're

telling people the beaches are, there's variables on what all was going on there.

People can't travel.

You can't do this.

You can't do that.

And I remember vividly this conversation.

It might have been that Thursday.

It's like, okay, do you know, our agreements say we

could keep these deposits.

But is that the right thing to do?

And from a pure integrity standpoint, I was so impressed that it really

wasn't a long conversation to say, we don't know all the answers, but

we've got to refund everybody's money.

And Michael, you can talk about the actual dollars of that.

I used to know, and I can't recall now, but I want business owners to picture

refunding people in the amount of,

Mike & Debbie James: So the biggest problem we had was, and you might remember

this, Tim, we had at that time, just one full time employee and then some

part times and we spend the winters here in this region, paying employees while

there's no revenue really coming in.

So you go from.

October, November, December, January, February.

And then you're like, here comes March.

Finally, in the second week of March, you're going to get spring break.

And that's when COVID hit.

We had people in house, but then all of a sudden it was, wow, pandemic's here.

And then the country gets shut down.

And what you talked about was, We had a conversation and we're

like, we can't keep this money.

It'll destroy the company.

Like people will actually destroy us on social media, destroy

us on every platform possible.

And the right thing to do simply was to refund the money.

So this was a little contentious issue with some of the owners.

Because they were being told by rental companies that they were going out to

ski in the Midwest and Utah, et cetera.

And they were told, you could come still enjoy the condo, even

though the slopes are all shut down and we're keeping your money.

So we didn't do that, but there were companies that had to do

that because those companies did.

Use advanced deposits to pay through the winter.

Whereas we never touched the escrow money.

So from a financial standpoint, we always ran the company like

with trust accounting in mind.

And we also had a savings beyond that.

So that our operations manager freaked out on day one.

And we were like, you don't have to worry.

We have already pre planned for a hurricane and to sustain ourselves for

six months to a year without revenue, and that's So even though we were freaking

out because we weren't sure if the company would survive, we knew at least

short term we could operationally roll.

The most difficult part of that was as we refunded the money, what we didn't

understand was there was a cog, right?

We didn't understand that the merchant account wasn't refunding the money.

They wanted to see our bank accounts to make sure they weren't returning the

money back to the credit card companies to those other people until they could

guarantee that we have the funds in the bank to actually secure all that.

There were things that you don't think about because the business

that we've run goes in one direction.

So all of a sudden a bicycle that you ride forward for the first time in history.

Now that had to, you had to ride a bicycle backwards.

And it was very difficult to actually unwind those transactions.

The most difficult thing was you have March through the summer, end of July is

pretty much 70 percent of your revenue.

And now all of a sudden we were refunding all of that timeframe

without knowing whether or not it would rebook when and if.

Our particular state would reopen to vacation rentals, which were banned

during that time frame, and it made it worse because every two weeks the

governor was making the decision.

So we would have people book up those properties.

Hoping that we would open.

And then on Friday at five o'clock, not open.

And then a landslide of phone calls, people wanting all their

money back because they're supposed to be checking in the next day.

So it was this constant for about two and a half months of just uncertainty.

And, but we constantly did the right thing.

It was like, we'll give you your money right back.

We'll give you your money right back.

And it was difficult.

It was absolutely challenging.

And I look back at it, it was extremely stressful, but then the hardest

part was the transition, right?

All of a sudden all these properties are empty.

Because everyone's been refunded.

And then the governor says game on, we're open again.

And then the, everybody's trapped in the United States.

So all of a sudden everybody wanted to book anything they possibly could.

So the bookings were coming in.

Trent and remember I had one employee, all they dealt with was

operations, check ins, checkout.

So all the reservations, all the phone calls, all the money.

Everything was on my shoulders.

Debbie did what she could, but effectively I was running 24 seven,

but we always did the right thing.

Most of our owners respected the fact that we did the right thing

for the clients, the guests.

And that was in the end, that was what we looked back on.

We, we did the right thing, what we thought was the right thing at

that time, given the information.

yeah.

Mike & Debbie James: was probably.

The dollar amount, Tim, was probably over a million dollars.

Yeah, it was over a million dollars.

In that year, we were probably going to do 1.

6 in gross revenue.

So we were giving back a million of the 1.

6 and that was a guess that we could get to the 1.

6 by the end of that year.

the interesting thing though, Tim, is when the country shut down,

people reacted a certain way.

Maybe rightfully maybe not.

And then when the country opened back up, it was the total opposite.

So they couldn't give us their money fast enough.

It was, it was wild.

Yeah.

Just wild.

Crazy times.

It was an odd time.

I do remember that the fall of that year was like record setting for us.

I don't know.

I don't remember year end, but I do remember at the end of the year, we

looked back and went interesting, we, million dollars, whatever.

But then we had people, there was no schools in the Atlanta area and all that.

So people were loading up going to the beach and Florida was open.

So thankfully we are in a place like that.

Mike & Debbie James: It was a season, right?

It was like we shut down.

He had bad information.

He didn't realize the amount of billions of dollars short term vacation rentals

did when a study was presented to him what it was going to cost the state

if they didn't open by Memorial Day.

He immediately flipped the switch and we were open again.

But the challenge became That whole spring was so busy and my life was so chaotic.

And then when it was game on, everything went a hundred percent occupancy straight

through summer, straight through fall.

So when we would normally have a break, we didn't have enough employees and it just

kept going straight through the holidays.

Straight through winter, right into the following spring break,

right into the following year.

And I was trying, you remember this, I was trying to hire

employees and get up to speed.

So what happened was from, I heard people talk about, I remember sitting

in the house and playing arcade.

I'm like, I had a completely different experience than you.

For me, I never worked harder, longer, more stressful days in my

entire life than the entire year of 2020 that went right into 2021.

It was.

gangbusters.

So the truth is, by the time we got to the spring in 2022 and Debbie

is the one that finally was like, I don't think I could take this anymore.

It's affecting my real estate.

I was like, you know what?

This is the perfect timing.

I am literally burn out and having the hardest time, presenting ourselves.

And then we were worried about that Europe was going to open and the money was going

to get a little bit less awesome for vacation rentals for a couple few years.

So the timing for the exit was perfect at that time, but it

was crazy, stressful timeframe.

And the clientele that came was used to hotels, resorts.

So the clientele that came in 2020 and 2021, extremely demanding.

They're used to picking up the phone and having a bell hop come take care of the

problem in 30 seconds, not 30 minutes.

I remember us having a conversation about the expectations

of the guests and I remember this conversation is like we, we told

ourselves this could be a trend that's not turning around anytime soon.

it's not as if people are going to start saying, yeah, the grill

isn't as clean as it should be.

I'm okay with it.

Thanks for just having a grill.

No, that's not the way people are doing.

Just real quick.

Let's move on from COVID.

I don't want to spend much time on it.

But Debbie, what's a quick lesson or something?

we're four Years out from that time Anything real quick that you you have

like an always or never or just something that you learn from that period of

time Anything that you'd want to share.

Mike & Debbie James: Wow.

There's a lot of things I guess I learned, but I think it's really just.

Having the faith that everything's going to work out for how

it's supposed to work out.

And I do believe things happen for a reason and it's easier to sit here

and say that after the fact, but I think it's really, and just with

what we've been through in general, I think just knowing that we're going

to be okay and that whatever comes our way, we can work through it is

really what I took away from it.

Yeah, that's good.

How about you michael?

Mike & Debbie James: I just look at it like.

I don't know what I could have done differently.

There were obviously little things that happened, but I feel really good

about the way we reacted and some of that was conversations with you, Tim.

And I feel really, I feel good in hindsight, the way that we responded

to a very difficult situation.

And in the future, I would just take that as experience to take a moment,

think through the consequences of not acting responsibly and

with care and concern of others.

the reason that's good and i'll go back to what debbie

said It's what I was thinking as we were just talking about this.

I haven't thought about it, but Dang, what a tough time but that's just four

years ago two years later You exited.

Somebody wrote you a very nice check.

y'all did a very nice exit.

It's not like y'all are still going to get money years from now.

Y'all got the check.

That's a good tip for people that are exiting companies, by the way.

Uh, and then now two years later, you're, we'll talk about this as we wrap up.

Y'all are working on some new projects.

You've got a lot of great things going.

You're going to start taking the wisdom you've gained and possibly

sharing that in different ways.

So I think the thing, I love what you said, Debbie, we don't We can't ever

really know, but I think we just have to have this thought that, you know

what, somehow it's going to work out.

This too shall pass.

We will get through it or you know what?

We'll just move on to that next realm, heaven or whatever it is for people.

It's like we, whatever it is.

anyway, we've got a little bit of time left.

What I'd love to do is I'd love to back up a little bit, maybe 25 years

or something like that, and maybe.

Talk a lot about, y'all getting started.

I was trying to remember this.

Did y'all meet online?

Mike & Debbie James: We did night, January 9th, 1999 was our first date, but we

met in December of 98 online before the movie, you've got mail was really cool.

And, it was matchmaker.

com.

Which became

match.

com

There was no internet.

Wait, there was no internet then.

Was there before 2000?

What are y'all talking about?

How did y'all meet?

there are people that are really doing that right now.

They're going, I didn't think they had the internet in the 90s.

Mike & Debbie James: had internet, not like today, but yeah, We had, dial.

I think it was still dial up back then.

Yeah, it was interesting, the responses from people too.

It was, I remember one of the parties that we met, some new people.

In mid 99 and they were like, Oh, how did two of you meet?

And we were like, Oh, we met online.

And the lady leaned forward, she grabbed my hand.

She's I'm so sorry.

It came to that.

And I was like, Oh my God, now nobody would think that way, but it was

literally like, I was like, so we started telling people, Oh yeah, we met, to.

Party or bar.

It was like it took us for a long time for people to like, be okay with that

being a way to first meet each other.

But it was perfect.

I just moved to Atlanta.

I had a friend that was actually immediately going out on dates and I'm

like, how are you going out on dates?

We just got here.

And he told me about the site.

Debbie was already on it.

And we met up, and just hit it off from the first date.

and let me mention too, that I didn't have a picture because being single, of course,

back then we didn't have cell phones.

And so I didn't have a picture.

And the only reason Michael clicked on my profile is because they randomly

assign you a username and mine was Debbie two, two, two, and the two,

two, two had meaning to Michael where he did a lot of stock trading back in

the day and was very technical in the stock market and two, two, two has to A

actual trading pattern that he followed and was successful with, which is the

only reason why I clicked on my profile.

Yeah, it was definitely, it was something I've traded that pattern.

It's a 70 percent reversal pattern.

It's Gartley 222, it's on page 222 of a book written in 1935.

And it had so much meaning to me that when I looked at it.

I was like, ah, there's no photo, but I have to click because

it's Debbie two, two, two.

And it was just, it was meant to happen.

it was a financial track transaction, even way back then.

Mike & Debbie James: I know we met you at a comedy club.

Oh wait.

And the other thing, Tim is, so I had been on there for a few months and my

membership expired and I said, and the way they do it and I won't be down rabbit

hole, but they keep sending you messages.

So and so messaged you so and so messaged you, so okay,

I'll extend for another year.

Month or whatever it was.

And maybe it was 25 bucks.

Michael gets me on his two week trial, free trial.

he had a timeframe is I got two weeks.

Let me see what I could do with this thing.

Ah, two, two, two, I'm going to roll the dice.

All right.

very cool.

Cause I know that it was right around that time that we met, we were all having fun,

learning a lot of cool stuff in that odd multilevel business, the Amway business,

and I don't say bad stuff about it.

I wouldn't be wanting to do it right now, but, and then, but shortly after

that, you guys started real estate.

And I.

I think I was around, but I'm having a hard time recalling it.

Tell me, what do y'all tell me about how real estate became part of really?

It's all that y'all do almost now, but how did that real estate thing get started?

Mike & Debbie James: So we ended up taking a class, to learn about

investing and Michael maybe remembers how or why we took the class.

I just remember meeting you, Tim, and seeing you.

At some networking event, no.

It was something to do with real estate investing.

And I was talking to you after, and I was a little taken back.

what are you doing here?

Because we were doing the network marketing with you.

And then I get home that night and I'm like, Oh my God, you're never

going to believe who I bumped into.

And I told Michael and I'm like, call him, just call Tamman.

at that point, we really hadn't had a lot of conversations with you.

We knew you through the business, we were on different teams, so we

didn't have as much interaction.

and then that's how we got started with you in real estate.

I'll let Michael continue, but it was, yeah, so it was funny because

she told me she's yeah, I saw Tim and I was like, what, Tim, because

like with the business and we weren't even in the direct line, right?

You were just somebody that was so good and you were on stage and you

were just so conversationalist.

You weren't like salesy, you were just, you would speak the truth and

Debbie and I wanted to work together.

That was one of the reasons why we were looking for network marketing.

We desperately wanted to work together as a couple and we saw you, we saw

glory and we saw other couples also that we just were like, I would

love to get to that point that I could work with my wife in business.

And then what ended up happening was, is we did end up transitioning.

To look at, because we're both working, but we transitioned to look

at real estate as a way to start to supplement and get more income.

And that's when she bumped into you.

And to her point, it was like, Oh, wow.

He's looking at real estate too, even though he's in the

multi level and doing well.

So that was the spark.

That's what led us to start talking.

And then we started to coordinate with some other marketing stuff.

That's a whole nother rabbit hole.

But the whole idea was that I already had great respect for you and glory

from what you had been able to do as a couple in that business.

And I told Debbie, I was like, we need to latch onto this.

Tim's Tim.

And you had your sister who was already deep into real estate.

So I w I was like, this is amazing.

let's try and work with Tim and Glory and really make this happen.

And that started the journey or continued us on that real estate journey.

So one of the things you did is that you were obviously

in that Atlanta market at that time.

And.

And you did that I think for a few years, and then you transitioned.

So I'd love for y'all to talk about what all you were doing in the Atlanta market

and then what provoked, what was the catalyst or whatever to move down then,

20 ish years ago, 2004, down to that.

Area of florida because a lot of people they get started in real estate and they

feel locked in And then they don't ever transition So and I do some of these

conversations are coming back to me now.

I actually remember going.

Yeah, I remember that we had a lead gen company and y'all were

getting parts of it and stuff like that I mean we divvied that up.

It was one one of the best businesses ever, by the way um, but talk a little

bit about what you did in the atlanta market and then the transition down

to that 30a or That rosemary area

Mike & Debbie James: So basically I, at that time I was doing more of the.

Like I had Mike buys houses, fast signs, and then right next to them was

lease to own or rent to own, right?

So I was following your business model where you had people calling that had

product they were trying to get out of houses, but you also had people

that really needed places to stay.

So that marketing arm of doing that allowed you to then.

Procure properties with contracts, which Debbie was involved with, then

putting contractors in place to ready it up for either the person you were

able to find right away with money and they needed a place or to have that

inventory to either rent lease option.

Or owner finance, right?

So we followed a lot of what you were doing at that time.

Plus we had the I buy houses leads that were coming in.

That was an incredible, business to be able to have that.

That let us do for three and a half years, we were in the trenches doing that.

And then she finally left her position and was helping me out.

So we were no longer in corporate.

We were fully working together.

And that ultimately led to when we came down here, but I don't know

if Debbie wants to lead into, there were other things too, that we

did with partnerships with other partners outside of UTEM in Atlanta.

I think doing what we did in Atlanta helped me prepare for real estate here.

So I wasn't licensed in Atlanta.

We moved here in 04, came down, visited the area, drove really the coast from

Pensacola to, Cape San Blas, and really, Had a tough time deciding where to go.

And so after we moved down, we realized really with your encouragement

too, you're like, if we're going to do real estate in Florida, you

might as well get your license.

Let's let us at least get the commissions and that sort of thing.

And so that's how that started.

And I think all the experience that I had with flipping and buying and selling and

renting and leasing, that really helped, In a different aspect for my experience,

now I just had to learn the product here.

And so it was really a kind of a natural transition for me.

And I finally found what I really loved because when I was in corporate

America, I just, I was miserable.

I really did not enjoy what I was doing.

I should have left, look for another job years prior, but it took me a long time

to really find something that I enjoyed.

so that's been 20 plus years.

And when y'all hit the ground down there in, the beautiful part of

Florida, it was the real estate market was fairly frothy all over.

it's been frothy ish in y'all's area a good bit during that time.

It was still a few years though.

y'all did real estate and then you started the vacation rental company.

It was 10 years after that, right?

Five, seven, eight, nine years later,

Mike & Debbie James: Yeah,

nine years.

later.

Mike & Debbie James: 13.

So were y'all just buying, selling, flipping, doing all

that kind of stuff during that time?

Mike & Debbie James: No, the market had, the prices had moved

too much here in Florida and the business model that you taught us in

Atlanta, we really couldn't do here.

And so I really just delved into, to selling real estate for other people

and helping and because of my knowledge and my background, I really do deal

with a lot of, investors and Michael was doing some other things and we got

here at the tail end of the market.

And It was wild for a short period of time, and then 2005, the market stopped.

It was around probably June of 2005.

It's like musical chairs stopped and a lot of people got caught standing up.

It really wasn't until about 2007 until prices started declining

into the financial crisis of 08.

And then prices kept going down when we look back 2010, 2011 was truly the bottom

of our market from a price standpoint.

And then ever since then we have the oil spill in 2010 and our

market really started coming back up very slowly every year.

And then of course, COVID, after about eight, nine, 10 years,

people are like, okay, where's the pullback, where's the pullback.

It was, they kept thinking it was another market cycle and then COVID

hits and everybody's okay, here it is, here's the pullback we're

waiting on and it everywhere, not just in our area, in the country,

the world, it did the exact opposite.

The thing that's fascinating to me with all of these

Ups and downs and we've had a lot of conversations and we like to think

we're really smart and Michael and I can really go down rabbit holes on,

the economy and this and all that.

I hate to admit this, but I am probably wrong much much more than I'm right.

Like, Oh my gosh, you know, we were thinking COVID, we were thinking like

we were, we could be dealing with some economic collapse with the country.

Oh no, they can print all kinds of money and take care of that and

I think we've gotten a good breadth of how much you guys have experienced

specifically in business and other things, but specifically in the real

estate markets and things like that.

And now at this stage, you guys, I know Debbie, you are with Sotheby's

and you're doing things there.

And Michael's also doing some things with you there.

But I know that you guys are getting to a place where you're ready to share some of

this wisdom, some of the knocks, some of the great stuff, some of the hard stuff

that you've experienced, because y'all have got investor experience, you've

got, building, you've got development.

you've got a lot of stuff.

Tell me What's next for you guys what's coming up?

What's happening now?

And none of it's necessarily definitive.

I know some of it y'all are still in the formative stages and y'all we've

talked about maybe doing some strategies on some of it, but Either michael or

debbie start and the other one can finish up and then i've got one or

two more questions before we finish up

Mike & Debbie James: really, what we're doing is we're leaning into the fact

that now we have a decade of vacation rental in the trenches experience with

understanding of our ally, knowing which products perform better than others.

During that entire timeframe, it helped us really get dialed in.

Debbie alluded to the fact that she went into real estate traditionally

and I was doing other things.

I was working with vacation rental companies and doing

marketing and photography video.

And I saw how things changed.

I saw the products that did better.

So what we're doing now is just what she was doing initially, except now

we have all the experience that I had.

So she can lean on me for numbers.

And then I'll go out with her when she has clients that are looking at

multiple properties and I can talk numbers from an investment standpoint.

So for the two of us, it makes us stronger as a team to be able to

look at a lot of these as assets.

I don't go out when somebody's just looking for a second home for

themselves, but when she has clients that are specifically investors, that's

when I come out and I additionally You know, give my insight as to

which one of those will actually do better on a long term basis and why.

So that's really what we're doing now.

And we're leaning into which Debbie I'll talk about trying to get to other

markets with other agents to let other agents and other markets know that if

they refer business to us as a team, we could take care of their clients here.

And we do pay referral fees to agents.

Yeah, anything else you want to add to that, Debbie?

Because I know you're doing, y'all are looking to do some video and audio

and just share and also anything else?

Mike & Debbie James: Yeah, we're gonna be launching a podcast that will help people.

We want to do some more video.

And, we're doing developments.

I have a business partner and we're building spec homes.

And we really want to help people understand, even so much as

with the rentals, a king bed.

If there's no king beds, put a king bed in the house.

And that's one tip.

And so there's so many little things that people can do to help

improve the income of a home that doesn't have to cost a lot of money.

it's you don't know what you don't know.

And we're just wanting to help share and, Help educate people.

So Tim, I can say it's a, it's an FAQ, right?

So like we have the same conversation over and over again.

So selfishly, we thought if we create a podcast talking about how to buy vacation

rentals in this market for income, it would be smart for us to just do a brain

dump with a lot of the high level basic things so that they could watch 20 or 30

minute episodes, either video or audio and learn about some of the real basics.

that helped them to come back to us and work further with us.

So it's going to help people from, a kindergarten up phase,

but then there's some expert stuff that's sprinkled in there as well.

So it's real, and it's also going to help us, cut down the amount of time that we

have to re educate everyone on not only the area, But the investment side of it.

One other cool thing I wanted to ask this, but I'm going to

request that y'all do some episodes on husbands and wives working together,

because as I'm sitting here thinking, and we just went over this history,

Y'all, miraculously were brought together while Michael was on his free

trial with what was, what became match.

com and you essentially are very similar to Gloria and I, y'all have really

been working together every sense.

Ever since that, so I think that would be a really cool discussion because a lot

of people want to know how to do that.

We don't have time to go into that here.

where do people need to find you, connect with you, either socials or websites or

anything, or if they're interested in the area and want to come look at property

or talk about it or anything, where can people find you just to stay up to

date on things that are, Michael and Debbie.

Mike & Debbie James: the easiest way probably is to go

to my website at debbiejames.

com and from there we'll have links to Facebook and Instagram, our phone numbers.

And so I think, I mean if you look us up on Facebook you'll certainly find us.

I think I'm debbiejames30a and Michael is It's a moving target.

Just go to debbiejames.

com.

Yeah, Michael, I mean, some of this after you've been

through the battles, it's like, I'm not that active on social.

Mike & Debbie James: Not exactly.

So debbiejames.

com.

Sure.

final question here, we are seek, go create those three words.

I don't even know if I prepped y'all for this.

So this could be a little bit of a curve ball, seek, go, or create those three

words, I'm going to ask each one of you to pick one of those words and why

that just means more resonates more.

So seek, go or create, and Debbie, I'm going to start with you because

I could see Michael's wheels turning.

So seek, go or create, which one do you choose and why?

And then Michael, you're next, and then I'll wrap up.

Up and we'll be finished.

Mike & Debbie James: Gosh, it's hard to choose just one.

I was hoping you'd start with Michael on that one.

I would have to say create, and I say that because we can create.

Just about anything we put our minds to.

I think, for me growing up, my mom would always tell me you can do anything

you want if you put your mind to it.

And so to create again, it's not, it's, I think easier said than done, but I think.

Because look, we live in a free country.

we're grateful to be able to live in the United States of America.

And we really can create and do anything we want to do.

For me, it's seek.

So I'm always thirsting for knowledge and seeking wisdom and constantly on the hunt.

So for me, seek is there as much as create as a second, a hard second.

For me, if I really, you didn't prep us for this.

I had to actually think about it.

I think I was originally going to go with create.

But in the end, my shtick is seek, so I would say seek.

Very good, man.

I'm so glad that we scheduled this.

I, we've known each other for some time.

We're on episode, I don't know, two 70 something now.

And I'm excited that, I was able to get my.

Good friends, people I've worked with, people that I've watched them

do so many cool things, go through some challenges also to have a

conversation here at SeekGoCreate.

What we're titling now, The Leadership Journey, and I think we've definitely been

able to discuss that while we're here.

I appreciate everyone listening in.

Go check out what Mike and Debbie are doing, and if you stay connected

here, you might hear updates on it.

I'm sure But, go check them out.

And if you've just been listening in and you want to support what we're

doing here, we welcome that support.

We welcome your financial support.

Go to seek, go create.

com forward slash support that seek, go create.

com forward slash support, and you could go give us money.

We'll take it.

And we appreciate all that.

Again, thanks for listening in.

We have new episodes every Monday on YouTube and all the podcast platforms.

Until next time, continue being all that you were created to be.