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You have to be a self starter because if you're not a self starter, it don't matter what resources or what kind of help you have, then it's not really going to maximize your potential to be the best version of yourself.

So for me I had the support system even though it was in a tough environment, but there was also an inner drive where I wanted to achieve goals that I had set for myself.

And for me it was just a matter of not letting anything stand in the way of those goals.

Freddy Owens is the author of the book Echoes of Stark park, which tells his story of basketball, community and faith.

Owens takes readers from the heart of Milwaukee's north side to the pressure of the Big Ten and the isolation of professional basketball overseas, revealing the lessons that shaped him far beyond the game.

Freddy is a Veteran NCAA Division 1 coach with over 20 years of coaching experience, including stints at Oregon State, Iowa State, Montana and Holy Cross.

As a player at Wisconsin, Owens delivered one of the most iconic shots in Badger history, A game winning three pointer against Tulsa to propel Wisconsin to the 2003 Sweet 16.

Freddy is a four time NCAA tournament player and a four time NCAA tournament coach.

He recently stepped away from the coaching profession and is currently a health and physical education teacher in the Green Bay, Wisconsin area.

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Have a notebook handy as you listen to this episode with Freddy Owens, author of the book Echoes of Stark park and former college basketball player and coach.

Hello and welcome to the Hoop Heads podcast.

It's Mike Cleansing here without my co host Jason Sunkel this morning.

But I am pleased to be joined by Freddy Owens, former college basketball player, college basketball coach, and author of the book Echoes of Stark Park.

Freddy, welcome to the Hoop Heads pod, man.

Hey, thanks for having me, Mike.

Excited to be here.

Thrilled to have you on.

Looking forward to diving into the book.

Learn a little bit more about your life, your career, and just the way that you've gone about your business from the time that you were a kid up until where you are now choosing to step away from coaching and get into teaching.

And we'll talk about all that as we go through the book.

Let's start with the synopsis of the book Echoes of Stark Park.

Tell people a little bit what the book's about, sort of the genesis behind it, and then we'll dive into the details of your life.

All right.

Well, the book is about the makings of a man, you know, who comes from a tough inner city background and was able to fight through a lot of adversity to achieve his goals and things that he has set for himself.

From a basketball standpoint, basketball is the centerpiece of the book, but it doesn't entail the entire book, you know, just, just, it's about resilience, growth and then ultimately, you know, leaving a legacy, you know, having a positive impact on others and trying to, you know, leave my mark on the world in a positive way.

And I know that you wanted to leave a legacy for your son.

So talk a little bit about that perspective of kind of the why behind the book.

Yeah, yeah.

So the book, initially, it started off as a legacy piece for my son.

You know, I'm a middle aged man and both of my parents are passed and are no longer with us.

So for me, there's a lot of unanswered questions that I have for both of my parents that I'll never really get to ask them.

I'll never get to ask them.

So started thinking more and more about my son.

And that's where the idea of getting something on paper kind of came to fruition, where I want to write down a lot of my experiences throughout life and more importantly, the lessons that I learned in each stage of my life, so that he can have something as he continues to progress through the different seasons of his life, where he can look back and reflect on and sort of relate to and see what it is that I went through, what his dad went through at various points of his life, to help shape and mold him into the man that he sees as dad today, and also the people that helped, you know, along the journey.

Talk about the mechanics of the book from the first day that you have the idea of, hey, I think I want to do this.

I think I want to write this book to.

You're sitting in your kitchen and you're actually holding a copy of that book.

What did the process look like?

What was the learning curve from going from idea to actually creating and sitting down, writing the book, finding a publisher, all the pieces that are, again, sort of in the background when people think about writing a book.

Yeah, it was definitely a huge learning curve.

A lot of information that I had to learn along the way because, you know, this is.

This is new for me, you know, but the main.

The hardest part was just getting the ideas out and getting them down on paper and to try to.

For me, trying to be as detailed as possible, because, you know, I was picturing my son reading the book at various stages of his life, and I wanted to be as detailed as possible with the information that I was giving him.

But it entailed a lot of.

Lot of long days and early mornings and late nights and waking up out of my sleep with ideas and jotting down notes in my phone at 2, 2, 3 in the morning, and my wife rolling over, you know, looking at me like, what are you doing?

You know, but, yeah, it was a very tedious and long process.

But once I.

Once I got going and started writing the ideas, it was just a matter of getting everything out, then going back and organizing it the way I needed to.

And then once everything was sort of organized the way I needed to, you know, getting the necessary help to make sure that it was polished the right way and done professionally.

And, yeah, it just.

It kind of took off from there.

And, you know, I'll just tell you, it was no greater feeling than getting that first hard copy of the book.

You know, knowing how much time was put into it and how much you know, heart and, you know, going back in the memory lane and, you know, digging up things that I hadn't thought about in 30 plus years.

So, yeah, it was just a very, very great experience where I learned a lot about myself and, and more about where I come from and even a lot about the people who have helped, you know, kind of along, help me along in my journey.

How clear were your memories as you're trying to put this thing together?

Because one of the things that I always think about when I talk to someone who writes a book about their life, clearly we all have things that we, we remember from when we were a kid or you remember things from your playing career about this or that.

But at least for me, I feel like I kind of know the general idea of this story or that story.

But I'm not sure that some of the level of detail that would be required of me to write a book about me.

But for you to write a book about you, how easy or difficult was it to clearly remember some of the stories that you tell in the book?

And did you have people kind of helping you that you went to and said, hey, I think I'm remembering this, but can you help me to fill in maybe some of the gaps in my own memory?

What was that process like?

Yeah, for me, surprisingly, it was.

That part of it was pretty easy.

For whatever reason, I just have very vivid memory of the details of everything that sort of happened up to this point in my life.

And yeah, it was just easy to get that down on paper.

The hardest part for me was to decide what to keep in the book and, you know, and what to take out or what to leave out, you know, so it was just a matter of trying to get that piece organized, you know, and that was the hard part to try to make sure that it flowed well and things didn't kind of, you know, go off, you know, on a bunch of different, you know, you know, a bunch of different areas and take a different path.

Bunch of different paths where it messed up the flow of the book.

So, you know, for me, that was the hardest part.

Not so much remembering the details.

It was, it was just more of, okay, what to keep in the book and what to take out.

Now you got the behind the scenes notes.

So when your son wants to make this into a documentary, he's got all the extra stuff.

So when you want to get some scenes together, you can just pull all that stuff out of the file cabinet.

Even though it didn't make it into the final cut of the book.

All right, let's dive into the book.

And for anybody who listens to the Hoopets podcast all the time, you'll recognize that a lot of our episodes are biographical in nature, where we're talking to our guests about their journey and how they've gotten to the point where they are.

And that's really, honestly, Freddie, what your book does.

And so let's go back and start with your earliest memories of the game of basketball, which are centered around your dad and him going and playing pickup basketball in Milwaukee, which we'll talk about.

But tell me a little bit about just your relationship with your dad early on and just how he brought you to the game of basketball and how that impacted you, not just in the moment, but moving forward.

Yeah, I mean, it was.

It was huge.

You know, for one, I was blessed to have a father who was around, you know, to help.

Help raise me to be a man.

Because I know the area that I come from.

You know, even a lot of my friends and people that I knew in our.

In our neighborhood, in our community, you know, they.

They didn't have a dad that was around.

So my dad, you know, he.

We called him the neighborhood dad, you know, the community dad, because he was a dad who, you know, tried to be there for other kids in the neighborhood who maybe weren't afford the luxury of having a father around.

And, you know, he was always that guy who was giving out advice and, you know, trying to pass gyms on to, you know, kids my age or even kids that were older.

So, you know, he was very well respected and liked in our neighborhood and looked at as a neighborhood dad.

For me, I mean, my earliest memories being, you know, four or five years old, just following him around the inner city of Milwaukee during the, you know, mid-1980s.

He loved to play basketball, and back then, growing up in that time, it was all about, you know, street ball and being on the parks.

You know, you go to the different neighborhoods, play against the different characters, different levels of competition, and, you know, it was just.

It was just a thing of beauty.

It was like, you know, a nostalgia moment.

You know, you go back and watch those movies from the 90s and in the mid to late 1980s, and that's exactly what it was.

You know, it was just community.

It was competition, it was fun.

And, you know, each park had its own unique set of characters.

And I just remember at a young age being on the sideline, dribbling my ball, mimicking the moves that my dad was doing and moves that, you know, the players that he was playing against, were doing and, and just watching how he carried himself and how competitive he was and, you know, just how he moved and things of that nature.

So for me, it was just a lot of.

A lot of just watching and learning.

And then that's where I fell in love with the game, you know, from.

From an early age.

And it's something that's been able to carry me up to this point in my life.

And I've been blessed to have a lot of really cool opportunities because the game of basketball.

Do you remember the first time that you broke into the top tier game at the playgrounds where you tended to go?

Because obviously there's a hierarchy.

People today who are one up in the game really have kind of no idea how playground basketball worked back in the day.

But for anybody who was alive or grew up in that era, you know that maybe there's multiple courts at a playground and there's the top tier court and then there's the second tier court.

And if you're a young guy trying to break your way in, either got to get there early or you got to get there late.

So maybe they need a 10th guy and you're just kind of standing there waiting to get your turn.

But what do you remember about the first time kind of you broke into the upper echelon of street ball or playground basketball, for lack of a better way of saying it?

Yeah, it was definitely a pecking order.

And the goal, you know, was always to get on that, that top court, you know, at the park I grew up on, which is what my book is titled after Stark park, you know, we had two full courts, you know, so the one court was like, for the kids and maybe, you know, the older sort of adults who weren't really that good from a skill standpoint.

And then the main court was the court where that's where the heavy hitters were.

So growing up as a kid, I would always be on one court playing with the kids or the adults who weren't very good.

And you look over and I see my dad and the other characters and people in the community playing high competitive basketball on the other court.

And for me, it was always that goal of getting there.

And.

And I finally was able to sort of reach that peak at about 12 years old, 12 to 13 years old, where I was able to get, you know, on the adult court.

And I always would ask my dad, you know, growing up when I was like 10, 11, hey, can I play with you?

He's nope, son, you're not ready you know, you're not ready, you're not ready for this level yet.

And then, you know, I got a little bit older, a little bit wiser, a little bit stronger.

And I just remember the first time I played with those guys, you know, I was like I said I was about 12 and it was a wake up call, you know, it was like, wow, you know, this is nothing like, you know, the games that are going on on the other court with my friends and, you know, they didn't take it easy on me.

You know, I got knocked down.

I mean, I have marks on my body to this day, you know, scrapes on my knees and elbows, you know, from those games.

And, you know, it was a great learning experience because I had to figure things out.

How am I going to get my shot off against an older adult who's stronger and more athletic and faster and smarter than I am?

You know, how am I going to defend a guy who's bigger and stronger and faster than I am?

So it forced me at a young age without me even really knowing it, you know, I had to adapt and I had to be resilient and try to figure out ways that I can impact the game so that I can continue playing on that court.

And, you know, by the time I was, you know, 13, 14, I had figured it out.

You definitely learned that you have to figure out what your role is, right, as a young player on those courts.

You're not going to go over there and start taking a lot of shots and then your team's going to be sitting.

And I'm sure Stark park was just like the places that I played, where some nights you're five, six teams deep waiting to get in.

And if you lose, it may be a long time before you get back on.

And so clearly everybody just goes out there and tries to figure out, hey, how can our five guys we put together, how can we win?

And if you're 13, 14 years old and you're playing on a court with high school guys and college guys and adults, you learn very quickly that you better do what you need to do to help your team win and not try to do too much.

And it's one of those things that I've talked about this so many times with guys that are kind of of our era, Freddy, in terms of just what's been lost in the pickup basketball world kind of disappearing, at least at a pretty high level, you can still find games.

But in all honesty, when I look at some of the games that I see around my area, they're games that When I was 17, 18, 19 years old, I probably wouldn't have wanted to play in because there was.

There's inevitably a guy with a baseball hat on or there's some guy with, you know, jeans playing in the game or whatever.

And I was like, yeah, I don't.

I don't want to be.

I don't want to be in that kind of game.

And just the playground basketball has just gone away.

And obviously we've gone to a system where players have much more access to gyms, there's much more organized basketball with a coach and an official.

And there are certainly positives that I always say that players today are probably way more skilled than players have ever been.

But I think there's a little bit of the competitiveness and basketball IQ that you describe.

Right.

Playing against a guy who's older than you, or playing with a group of guys who have a little bit more experience than you, that you just learn some things on the playground that I don't know that you ever learn in a gym at an AAU practice.

And I'm sure you feel the same way.

And that's not to say that today's system doesn't have merits, because it does.

Obviously, the players today are incredible, but I always say that, and I'm sure you feel the same way that even with all the great things that you were able to do in organized basketball.

And we'll talk about a couple of them.

Some of my best memories are just from playing on the plane at the park.

Right.

Or playing pickup basketball here or there.

Some of my most favorite basketball memories are those memories, despite the fact that I played 100 some college basketball games, which was great, but I have some really great memories of the park.

And I know for you that, you know, you included several of those just with your friends and with your dad, you know, on the playground.

Yeah, it's just a lot different, you know, and things change.

Right?

Things evolve.

You know, that's.

That's.

That's life.

Right.

But definitely, you know, when I look back on those times, it's different versus today in a sense, where today everything is more external, and back then it was more internal.

It taught you a lot of internal things.

You know, for example, you had to figure things out when you were thrown in the fire, you know, and it just created a completely different dynamic internally where it created that competitive nature.

It created sort of an environment where you had to figure things out, you know, if you want it to be successful.

And not saying that today kids aren't put in those situations.

But, you know, it's a lot more structured in a sense, where you have the resources, you have the trainers, you have the indoors, you know, inside facilities the kids work, work out in.

You know, when we were coming up, I even remember a time where we were too young to even play on the, you know, the second court at Stark park, and we had to be resourceful.

We cut out milk crates and nailed them to the telephone poles, and that's how we played our games, because we couldn't get on the park court, you know, so it's just like, you know, we had to be resourceful.

We had to figure things out.

Or I'll give you another example.

What if you're out there playing on a windy day, you ain't going to be taking a lot of jump shots, right?

You got to try to figure out.

And if you are, you got to figure out, okay, where the wind is coming from.

Maybe I'll take a little bit off of it.

Maybe I'll put a little bit more on it.

You know, you had to deal with the elements.

Now everything is so staged where, you know, kids are not necessarily put in positions where they have to figure things out on their own.

They're being told to how to figure it out versus them having to figure it out internally.

So, yeah, it's definitely a different day and age.

And, you know, it's.

It's neither good nor bad.

It's just.

It's just different, you know, and, you know, I wouldn't change the way I was brought up in the environment I came up under, you know, under no circumstance.

And I was able to experience it from both sides as a player and as a coach.

So.

But, yeah, it's definitely a lot different now.

You know, you see kids where, you know, if a kid plays hard now, they stick out, you know, they.

They stand out, you know.

Wow, that kid plays really hard.

Well, when we.

When I was coming up, that was the standard, you know, and what separated you was the talent.

Everybody played hard, you know, and now, you know, you see a kid play hard.

You know, as a college recruiter, you know, I coached for almost 20 years.

You know, you're on the circuit and you watch a kid and you see a kid standing out because he plays harder than everybody.

Like.

Like, wow.

You know, we're back.

Back when I was coming up, that was the standard, you know, so it's definitely a different game.

And it's just, you know, you're dealing with different athletes and even different coaches, you know, and you just try to evolve with it and try to figure out a way to get through the guys and help them get better.

But, you know, the nostalgia of the 80s and 90s, man, there's nothing like it.

Growing up on those playgrounds.

There's nothing like it.

Could not agree more.

Could not agree more.

So one of the themes that runs through your book is, and it starts with, again, sort of the why behind the book, of writing it for your son.

And then the first character that kind of gets introduced in the book is your dad and the influence that he had on you with basketball.

But you go through, and you talk about a lot of your other family members, your mom, your aunts, and just the people around you from a family standpoint, that had an impact.

Your cousins, the people that had an impact on who you became and who you were in the moment.

So why was it so important to kind of include that at the.

At the very beginning of the book?

I'm guessing it was just to kind of give people a sense of what your community, what your tribe looked like, but just kind of talk a little bit about your family and the influence they had on you.

Maybe not even so much as a basketball player, but just as a human being while you were growing up.

Yeah, I mean, the old saying is, it rings true.

You know, it takes a village, right?

It takes a village.

You know, when you're raising youth and you're raising kids, and, you know, the more hands that are that are involved to help that kid be the best that they can be, the better.

And for me, that's a perfect example of how I grew up.

It was a village.

It was my community.

It was my neighborhood.

And, you know, not saying that things were perfect because they were not perfect by any means, but, you know, me having those relationships helped me get through.

Through a lot of tough times in my life, you know, dealing with, you know, an unstable household, you know, moving 10 times and, you know, by the time I was, you know, the age of, you know, 12 or 13 or whatever it was, and.

And, you know, dealing with drugs and high crime and, you know, my mom getting addicted to drugs and.

And, you know, being basically on my own, you know, in the seventh grade, where I was kind of had to fend for myself there, you know, because of my family situation, you know, it was just a lot of people that reached out and grabbed ahold of me and helped keep me in line so that I wouldn't go off in another direction where I could have gotten into a lot of trouble, you know, join gangs and, you know, selling drugs and things of that nature.

It was like my community understood that I had a talent, and they did everything they could to shield me from all the bad things that was going on around me.

And they cleared a space and cleared a lane for me to, you know, be the best version of myself through the game of basketball.

And I'm forever grateful for that because I know a lot of kids, they didn't have those opportunities, and I saw that, you know, and even kids today, like, a lot of kids, don't have that support system.

So, you know, for me, I wanted to make sure that I included that, and I was as detailed as possible about letting the reader see that, you know, all of the people that had a hand in helping me, helping raise me into the man that I am today.

And, you know, I had cousins who were like brothers and sisters to me, because that's what they were.

You know, we were together all the time.

We did everything together.

And I was the only child, my mom's only child, and then I had a half sister when I was growing up that I didn't meet until a little bit later in life.

And.

And, you know, like, they were my cousins, were my siblings, so.

And then, you know, I had aunts and uncles and, you know, grandparents, and everybody chipped in.

You know, we didn't come from much, so there was always times where, you know, we didn't know where our next meal was going to come from.

And then, boom, you have an aunt that, you know, helps chip in and throws us a few dollars that helps us get groceries or they make a meal or, you know, we can't make rent.

You know, one of my parents loses a job, and we can't make rent.

We have to move out of the apartment that we lived in, and we have to move in with one of my aunts.

And it was just always somebody stepping up to the plate to help us out.

And, you know, we're.

I was forever grateful for that because without those.

Those people around, you know, who knows where.

Where life would have took me and my family.

When you look at the situation that you grew up in, in totality, and then you look at the things that you've been able to achieve in your life, Right.

As you said, there are a lot of kids who grew up in similar circumstances to you who maybe didn't have the same opportunities to have the success that you've been able to have in your life.

And so I don't know if you've ever thought about it in exactly this way.

But how much, when you look at your ability to rise above sort of the situation where you were and be able to go and play college basketball, to be able to become a college basketball coach, to be able to become an educator and all the things that you've been able to achieve in your life, how much of that do you attribute?

Because I always feel like for somebody who is brought into the world in circumstances that are less than maybe ideal from an outside perspective, that that person has to have a certain strength of character to be able to get to a place where they're able to rise above that.

And yet, as you're talking, right, you're telling me about your family and all the people that helped you and make these situations.

So have you thought about the balance between how much of it is what Freddie Owens had inside of him and your character and then how much of it was the influence of the people around you that, as you said, they kept kind of lifting you up because they saw you had this gift with the game of basketball.

How do you kind of put those two pieces, parts together in terms of what's allowed you to get to this point where you are in your life today?

If that question makes any sense at all to you?

Yeah, it does.

It does.

I think it's a little of both.

Right.

You know, you have to have the support system, but you also have to have the inner drive, you know, and I'll dig back to one of my coaching terms.

Like, you have to be a self starter, right.

You know, like you have to be a self starter.

Because if you're not a self starter, it don't matter, you know, what resources or what kind of help you have then it's just, you know, you're not really going to maximize your potential to be the best version of yourself.

So for me, you know, there was a little of both.

You know, I had the support system, even though, you know, it was in a tough environment, but there was also an inner drive, you know, where I wanted to achieve goals that I had set for myself.

And for me, it was just a matter of not letting anything stand in the way of those goals.

You know, friends want to go party, they want to go hang out, they want to go do things that they shouldn't be doing.

Nope.

You know, for me, I'm staying on the court, I'm working on my game, and, you know, I'm getting shots up and I'm trying to do everything that I can to maximize, you know, my talent.

So, you know, to answer your Question.

I think it involves a little bit of both, you know, and it also starts with the foundation, right?

The groundwork, you know, whether it's, you know, your mom or your dad or whoever it is that's looking after you when you're growing up, you know, what's the groundwork?

What's the foundation like?

And, you know, for me, you know, I was lucky enough to have my parents at an early age, you know, and they weren't perfect, don't get me wrong, by any means, but they did do a great job of laying the foundation, you know, of hard work and being a good person, you know, showing empathy and showing love and just doing things the right way.

I learned that at an early age.

I just remember being, you know, five, six years old, and my mom and my dad always, you know, getting on my case about, you know, doing things the right way.

And when I didn't, you know, I heard about it, you know, and there was consequences.

And, you know, that.

That laid the foundation for everything that you see today, you know, and even through the tough times, you know, growing up, and even as an adult, I still have those foundations to kind of look back on and draw back on to help get me through tough times and challenging times in my life.

And, you know, I just.

I just thank the great man above that.

I had parents that.

That laid that groundwork, you know, especially in the environment that I come from.

Do you remember when you internalize that, where it went from mom and dad saying, hey, this is what we should do, or, here's this situation.

You should react this way, to where you got to a point where a situation would come up with your friends or this or that.

Maybe it's a party, maybe it's that.

Where you internalized.

It was no longer, hey, mom and dad are telling me I shouldn't do that, or that's.

But it was just.

That's not who I am.

I'm Freddie.

I'm going this direction.

I'm veering away from that.

Do you remember when you kind of took ownership of that for yourself from the people who had instilled it in you?

Yeah, yeah, I. I vaguely remember being about 6 years old and the topic of bullying came up.

You know, we were talking about bullying at the kitchen table, me and my mom and my dad.

And, you know, I told him about this kid who was just terrorizing everybody on the playground.

I never forget.

His name is Roderick.

His name was Roderick.

And he was just terrorized.

A little bit older, you know, than most of the kids.

And you know, I went home and I was telling my parents about this kid, and I remember vaguely my mom and my dad telling him, telling me, you know, you have to stand up to this kid if he bothers you.

You know, you have to put your foot down, draw a line in the sand, and stand up to this kid.

And if you see him bothering anybody else that you feel as though they can't defend themselves, you need to step in and interfere and take up for whoever it is that need help.

And what do you know?

Few days later, a situation comes up where Roderick's bullying somebody, and it was a kid he was a lot bigger than.

And I remember stepping in and, you know, kind of defending the other kids, so to speak.

And, you know, let's just.

I won't go into details, but let's just say Roger didn't bother anybody else from there on out.

But it's interesting, you know, you look back, you know, and, okay, you wouldn't necessarily teach a kid, like, things are just so different now versus how they were back when I was growing up.

But it did lay a foundation for me to, you know, you have to stick up for yourself, and you have to stick up for people that are not capable of taking up for themselves as well.

You know, that's just life in general.

And, you know, the more people that are willing to reach out and help others in a time of need, you know, it just.

It just helps us all, you know, overall.

And for me, I just remember that being an early learning point in my childhood where it was like, you know, you stick up for yourself and you stick up for others, and that's something that I've always, you know, held close to heart, you know, in regards of what situation it may be.

Yeah, there's nothing better than that.

Right.

If you can get the people around you that instill those kind of values in you, and then you think about yourself as a parent, or I think about myself as a parent.

And those values, like what you just described, are things that we hope we all can instill in our children so they can go forth and do some of those same things that.

That you just described.

Tell me a little bit about your high school career as a basketball player.

In the book, you talk a lot about some of the experiences that you had with your team coming in as a freshman and playing time and trying to figure that whole piece out, and then your rival school that you're playing against and going back and forth with them.

But just tell me about one of your favorite memories or two about being a high school player.

When someone says, hey, Freddy, what was your high school basketball career like?

What's the first thing that jumps into your mind?

First thing that jumps in my mind is just walking into the school building on the first day of school.

You know, I remember being a freshman.

It was the first time that I had actually like, provided my own.

Not provided my own transportation, but went to school on my own.

So I had to catch, like, three different city buses to get to my high school.

So that in itself was like, a long process.

I had to get up super early in the morning, you know, and take three city buses to get to my school.

In which the last bus dropped you off right in front of the school, you know, so for me, the first memory that comes up is just getting off that city bus in front of the school the very first day.

And at the time, my high school, we had close to 2,000 students at the high school.

Now, it's a lot different.

It's like 250 students in the entire school.

But, you know, back then, I mean, it was a huge school, huge incoming freshman class.

And I just remember getting off that bus and just.

It was just a lot of energy.

You know, you got the freshmen in one area, you got, you know, the upperclassmen in another area.

You got your different cliques of everybody hanging out.

And for me, there was a lot of unknown, you know, first day at a new school, going into high school.

And for me, it held even more of a significance because both of my parents went to that high school as well, and they both played basketball, basketball at Milwaukee.

Washington.

So, you know, Washington had a huge tradition, and it still has a huge tradition of basketball royalty, you know, tons of really good players, teams, coaches, you know, state championships, you know, so there was the pressure to be good enough to make the team, but then, not only make the team, I have to represent my family name, too.

You know, there's a little bit of eternal pride there where it's like, you know, my parents walked these halls.

They played on some really good teams here.

And, you know, I'm not going to be the son who goes here and can't make the team or doesn't.

Doesn't, you know, play, you know, so for me, it was like, hey, like, I got a lot to prove here, and I got to work like hell to, you know, get better and make sure that, you know, my.

My.

My name and our tradition and our legacy carries on.

So there was, you know, a lot of internal and external pressure from a basketball standpoint.

For me.

So, you know, just walking through those doors on the first day and, you know, walking through the halls, I remember you go through the main entrance, and there's just pictures of the past state champions and the trophies and things of that nature.

And I was just like, wow.

Like, my goal is to be on that wall one day.

I remember thinking to myself, you know, those first couple of days of school.

So that's one.

And then to answer your question, the second one would be making it to state.

My senior year, we went when I was a freshman, and I played varsity as a freshman, but, you know, I didn't play a lot.

But my senior year, we made it.

We were ranked in the top 25 in the country, and we were just loaded.

I mean, we had like six or seven D1 guys on our team.

Uh, and then, you know, to make it even better, we played against our rival, Milwaukee, Vincent.

They were also ranked in the top 25 in the country.

So it was just a huge battle, you know, city pride on the line.

They had a loaded roster full of Division 1 players, too.

And.

And it was just, you know, not only were we battling for the state title, we were battling for city pride, too.

And to have two Milwaukee teams, you know, inner city teams battling for a state championship was.

Was a pretty cool experience.

So making it to state was a huge deal.

You know, that would be the second thing that I.

That I would.

That would come to mind.

And then I was already committed to play at, you know, the University of Wisconsin, and.

And, you know, so there was just.

The stakes were really high.

It was really high.

And it was just a.

Just a fun time to be an athlete.

Tell me about the decision to go to Wisconsin.

And the story that you tell in the book is one that, again, I found it kind of amusing in the sense that there really wasn't much of a recruiting pitch other than, hey, do you want to come to the University of Wisconsin?

You were like, yeah, I want to come to the University of Wisconsin.

What else would I want to do?

So kind of walk me through that story and just again, sort of why you felt that strongly about the opportunity in Madison.

Yeah, the goal was always to, you know, get out of the.

The hood, you know, and make something to myself through the game of basketball.

So for me, I always had aspirations of getting a full ride to play Division 1 basketball at the highest level.

And I just remember growing up, you know, in Those early to mid-90s, and watching the Marquette and Wisconsin teams play.

And what drew me to Wisconsin as A kid watching those games on TV was watching Michael Finley and Tracy Webster and Rashad Griffith and those teams, you know, in Wisconsin, they had some really good teams and, and I just remember watching those teams on TV and going outside and trying to mimic the moves that Michael Finley did and Tracy Webster did.

And you know, Tracy Webster was a, you know, a left handed point guard and he was really good.

And I'm a lefty, so like, Tracy was my guy.

Like, you know, and, you know, so for me, there was always an early draw to wanting to be a Badger, wanting to play for the University of Wisconsin.

And, you know, I got an opportunity through an AAU coach of mine who was sort of like my mentor who saw, you know, some things in me that I didn't see in myself at the time.

And he was always, you know, pushing me and pushing those buttons to help me just figure things out and, you know, helping me get better as a player and getting me to think about, you know, the game and life beyond the game.

And yeah, he, you know, talked to somebody on staff and told them that, you know, I was the best, best secret in the state.

And you know, I got invited to their elite camp and went to camp and you know, for me it was like, okay, this is, this is it right here.

You know, I got a chance to display my skills in front of, you know, the coaching staff and, you know, not only am I going to be playing against, you know, some of the top competition in the country because these are all the guys that they're actively recruiting and, you know, I got a chance to make a name for myself here.

So needless to say, the night before elite camp, I didn't get any sleep.

You know, I just was.

I've always been kind of a person who had an imagined.

I had an.

I used my imagination where I would put myself in certain situations, you know, to where it was a positive outcome.

So that night, I was constantly putting myself in situations, picturing myself, you know, hitting game winners and making the right plays and doing everything the right way so that I can attract the interest of the staff.

And when I got to elite camp, man, it was all out war.

You know, I told myself, like, these guys are in the way of what I'm trying to accomplish.

And, you know, if I don't make the most of this moment, it may never come back around.

And, you know, I used it as fuel and I went into that camp hungry man.

And I walked out of there with a scholarship.

And, you know, when coach Dick Bennett offered me the Scholarship.

For me, it was a no brainer.

I knew that's where I wanted to be.

It was close to home, a very reputable university, you know, from an academic standpoint.

And my family and friends can just, you know, drive an hour and a half to Madison from Milwaukee and see me play every weekend, every home game.

And for me it was just a win, win situation.

So there was no need to go through the whole recruiting battle and try to get 20 offers.

Like, that's just not who I am as a person.

You know, if I see something as the right fit and it makes sense, then that's, that's what I want to go with.

And, and yeah, everything aligned and, and yeah, I was able to go there and have a, have an amazing four year career.

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What do you remember about the transition from high school to college?

Both from a social academic piece, but also then just on the basketball floor going from a high school player to obviously a very high level Division 1 program.

Yeah, it's like with any transition, right, you go to middle school, you go to high school, you go to college, like everything magnifies tenfold, you know, at every level, you know, so the transition going into college was like, whoa, you know, and for me, being an inner city kid, you know, coming out of the nps, the Milwaukee public school system, you know, I wasn't exposed to a lot of things that I got exposed to in college.

So, you know, my first semester was like, wow, you know, you get thrown in the fire, there's nobody holding your hand and telling you, you know, be here or taking you to practice at a certain time or taking you to study for the act.

It's like you got to figure that out on your own.

So for me, when I hit campus, it was just like, whoa.

Everything was magnified tenfold.

You got 40 plus thousand students going every which way on campus and people from all different backgrounds and you got deadlines on assignments and you got a Balance practice and getting beat up physically and mentally with the transition of trying to figure things out as a freshman athlete and trying to carve out your role and your niche and trying to figure out how can I crack the rotation.

And it's just, you know, it was a lot, you know, for me, but for me it was great because it's a challenge and I always enjoyed a good challenge and trying to figure out how to insert myself into an environment where it was challenging and demanding and you know, eventually I was able to figure it out and find my niche and.

Yeah, and the rest is sort of history.

Well, one thing that was historic that you did in your career.

Some people might associate the shot with Michael Jordan against the CAVS in round one, 1989, game five.

However, there is the shot in Wisconsin basketball which is associated with one Freddy Owens.

So take us through what the shot is in Wisconsin basketball history and what are your memories from that moment in the NCAA tournament?

Yeah, so the shot references a game winner that I made in the second round of the NCAA tournament against Tulsa.

And it was a very sort of unique and pretty cool experience.

You know, it's March Madness and you see a lot of crazy stuff, but we were down 13 with you know, just under four minutes to go in the game and things were just not going well for us.

We were up against the lower seeded Tulsa team that was loaded and talented and, and they had, had gotten the best of us for 36 minutes or so of that game.

So we found ourselves in a double digit deficit late in the game and, and you know, I just remember going to the huddle and you know, coach Beau Ryan, you know, who's a Hall of Fame coach, another one of the, you know, hall of Fame coaches that I was fortunate enough to play for and learn a lot under.

He just was very calm and you know, he told us all, hey, this is one they're going to remember for a long time, you know, and referencing that we're going to make a comeback and win the game.

So you know, we all, you know, we're team full of fighters and we kept believing and all of a sudden, you know, we get that 13 point lead down to two, you know, and then all of a sudden, you know, we make a run and we're in a late game situation and we're in another timeout and you know, we have a NBA prospect on our roster, Devin Harris.

Who?

Devin and I actually a lot of people don't notice.

We grew up together on Stark park, like same neighborhood, right around the corner from each other.

So we ended up being back court teammates, you know, playing for Wisconsin.

So that's another story in itself.

That's pretty cool.

You know, Devin ended up spending 15 years in the NBA and he was an NBA All Star as well.

So coach drew up a play for Devin to come off a high ball screen and I was to clear through to the opposite corner to sort of create a driving alley for Devin to come off the high ball screen and make a play.

And Devin made the right play.

You know, he didn't, he didn't take the shot because he drew two defenders in which one of the defenders was mine.

And Devin, you know, made a cross court pass and I happened to find myself wide open in the corner and you know, I was always ready and he made the right play and I was ready to knock it down.

And fortunate enough it went in, you know, and yeah, we ended up, ended up winning the game and going to the sweet 16.

And yeah, it was a great experience.

A lot of people don't know this either.

I was not supposed to play in that game.

I had got hurt pretty bad in our first round matchup against Weber State where I had a high ankle sprain that was pretty bad.

And, and I wasn't supposed to play in that game.

And I spent, you know, the next two nights pretty much rehabbing my ankle to be prepared for that game.

So I was not 100%.

You know, it's just crazy how, you know, the butterfly effect, right?

Things kind of work out like that and you know, I wasn't 100% by any means, and I had a small, you know, sort of a small imprint on that game up to that point.

And I made a few shots and, you know, tried to defend to the best of my ability, but I wasn't even supposed to play in that game.

And here, you know, there you have it.

I ended up knocking down the game winner.

So it's just funny how things sort of work out, man.

And it was an unbelievable experience.

And it's cool to this day, you know, that people.

There's not probably a week that goes by where, you know, somebody doesn't bring up that shot.

Me living in the state now, and it's always cool to hear about, you know, where people were and how they reacted, you know, when that happened.

It's a Stark park mentality, man, that kept you playing in that game.

That's what that was.

That's what that was all about.

How much of your memory of that shot is your actual memory of the moment Being a part of it versus now.

I'm sure you've seen the video, the replay, the call, all the stuff over and over and over again.

How much of what you remember about it is your actual memory of being on the floor and making the shot versus seeing the TV video and the call?

Do you still remember what it was actually like to be on the floor making that shot?

Or has?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, I remember it vividly, every detail of it.

That's awesome.

I mean, I even remember the guy running past me after I released the shot, you know, like not, you know, having a split second where I couldn't really see the rim, you know, after the release and, you know, seeing it go through and running back down court with my arms raised because they still had some time to get a shot off.

So it was like, hey, we gotta get back on defense, you know, that.

That mentality.

So.

But yeah, I remember it vividly.

You know, just walking out of the timeout and just kind of having a strange feeling that, you know, I was gonna get the ball.

I don't know why, but it was just one of those out of body experiences where it's like the ball could possibly come your way, so you have to be ready.

And lo and behold, it did, and I was ready.

But yeah, I mean, I remember every detail.

Just like with writing a book, you know, I was kind of blessed in that sense where I remember a lot of details about things that happened in my life because, you know, over time, the environment that I came up in, like, you had to be observant because that's the difference between you being in a situation that could be favorable versus unfavorable.

So for me, just, you know, always being aware of my surroundings and being aware of what's going on, you know, it helps me be able to remember details very vividly.

Before we move on to your opportunity to play professionally, I want to just circle back to your relationship with your mom because I know that's a central part of the book.

And you mentioned earlier in the conversation that your mom suffered from an addiction that ended up making your relationship with her challenging just because of that addiction and how that thing played itself out throughout the course of your life.

So just talk a little bit about the influence of your mom, how her addiction impacted you and your family, and then kind of think about how that shapes who you are today as a husband and as a father.

Yeah, definitely.

You know, one thing about my mom, and, you know, I haven't talked about this a lot.

You Know, so being able to get that stuff down on paper was good and therapeutic because this is stuff that I've buried for 30 plus years.

You know, having my mom around early in my life, you know, a lot of people seem to think, you know, especially when it comes to things like addiction, you know, they look at it in a sense where it makes the people a bad person, you know.

Well, for me, I was able to understand early on for some reason that it doesn't make someone a bad person, you know, like they're just going through something that they're trying to get through and they're trying to fight.

And that was a situation with my mom, you know, in the 80s and 90s during the crack epidemic, you know, that flooded a lot of inner cities throughout America.

You know, Milwaukee being one of them.

You know, drugs just had a huge stronghold on our community, you know, and it had a grip that, you know, a lot of people couldn't get out of.

And my mom was one of those people.

You know, both of my parents were teen parents.

So trying to figure out how to raise a kid in that environment where you don't have a lot of resources was tough.

So, you know, my family, you know, being my mom and dad, they had to result to selling drugs to make, you know, make ends meet and to take care of me and themselves, you know.

So because of that, my mom, you know, she got addicted to crack cocaine.

And it was a battle that she fought for a good period of her life.

And I just vividly remember a lot of those times growing up as a kid, seeing her in different states where it cut me deep and it hurt because I knew what she was like before she got addicted to drugs versus what I was seeing.

So for me growing up, it was always like, I know she's in there, I just hope she can come out, you know.

And every time I saw her in the neighborhood, it was a matter of worrying and wondering, which mom am I going to see today?

You know, and it was just, it was a very stressful, high anxiety driven and sad time for me growing up because I knew what my mom was like before versus what I was seeing.

And I saw the transformation, you know, hit hard on a daily basis.

You know, I just remember times where I would be in the neighborhood playing basketball and I would see her in the neighborhood, you know, looking for drugs and buying drugs and, you know, she was just a shell of herself.

And it was just really scary for me as a kid because, you know, at that age you're seeing that and you know, what's going on at 10, 11 years old, and you just don't know how to process it.

You know, you don't know how to deal with those feelings.

And, you know, you don't.

You see, you know, what you're seeing, but you don't understand, you know.

So for me, it was just a really tough time growing up and seeing that.

And, you know, I remember times also where, you know, I'm matched up against guys on the court, playing against them, you know, and this is this very guy that was selling drugs to my mom, you know, and he knew what he was doing to her and how it was affecting, you know, her relationship with me and with our family and with my dad.

And, you know, here he is selling her drugs.

And, you know, I tried to do everything I could as a 1112 year old to punish that, that guy on the court, you know, where there was, you know, catch him, catch him with an extra elbow or, you know, you know, set a harder screen on him, and just doing everything I could, you know, as a kid, to let him know, like, you know, hey, I understand.

I see what you're doing to my mom.

And, you know, I'm going to try to do everything in my power to let you know that I know what's going on.

And, you know, it's just, it's tough, especially kind of reflecting and looking back on that time and, you know, but, you know, I had basketball, man.

Basketball got me through a lot of those tough times, because if I just, if I wasn't able to go up to that park and get shots up and play with my friends and have something to keep my mind off of what was going on, you know, who.

Who knows, who knows where I would be?

Um, so, you know, that was just.

That was a tough.

That was a tough, tough time for me.

And.

And it's something that I'm still getting through to this day, you know, when I think about my mom.

Because when I.

When I lost my mom, you know, I was 27, 28 years old, and she had finally started to get her life turned around where she, you know, was beating the addiction, something she had battled for a number of years.

And, you know, right when she was getting to a point where she had turned things around and we were repairing our relationship, then she dies unexpectedly, you know, of a blood clot, you know, where it killed her.

So, you know, I feel, even to this day, you know, looking back on it, it angers me because I was robbed of time with my mom and, you know, she doesn't get to meet her grandkid, you know, she doesn't get to meet my son.

And, you know, so now it's just.

I think about those times, and it's heartbreaking because I have to imagine what she would have been like, you know, when she's seen him and when she's around him, you know, and he'll never get to meet his grandmother, you know, so, yeah, it's just.

It's a tough time, and it's a tough thing to deal with, but, you know, at the same time, it's life.

So I just try to cherish those moments and make the most of it and recognize that, you know, I did have a mom, you know, for a period of time where she was a good mom, and she helped instill a lot of different, you know, things and traits in me that helped make me the man that I am.

You know, she taught me how to love, and she taught me how to, you know, take care of people.

She would give a shirt off her back to anybody, you know, in need.

So those are a lot of the traits that I.

That I get from her.

And, you know, I try to make sure that, you know, I show her.

Show my son pictures of her, even though he's three, I show him pictures of her on my phone and, you know, hey, who was that?

And, hey, that's Grandma, you know, and, you know, just try to carry her legacy on, you know, through me and through him.

Yeah, it's tremendous that you're able to look back with that perspective of even when your mom was going through some of those darkest times in her life.

Right.

You could still look at her and see the mom that I know is still in there, despite this shell that the addiction has kind of put around her that's made her into this different person.

And again, I think it speaks to the kind of person that you are, that you're able to look back and you were able to, even in the moment, to look and.

And still see, hey, my mom is still in there.

Because obviously, there's a lot of people that could have been bitter or upset at their mom or angry and not that.

Yeah, I'm sure you didn't go through those feelings at some point as well, but just the fact that you were able to keep that perspective, and even now as an adult, to be able to look back and see the good that your mom brought to your life and not necessarily always just focus on what, you know, what could have been, you know, and look at the positives that.

That she brought to your life.

And again, that's what we all hope for, right?

In the people that we.

That we have as a part of our family, that they have some influence on us, that makes us a better person for the rest of our life.

And clearly, that's what.

What she gave to you.

All right, let's jump back to sort of the progression your basketball career after you get done at Wisconsin.

Clearly a guy like yourself, who.

Basketball has been such a huge part of your life, you want to have an opportunity to play professionally, which you had an opportunity to do.

Talk a little bit about what that experience was like for you, what you liked about it, maybe what was challenging about it, and then we could talk a little bit about what's next after basketball for you.

Yeah, so the goal was to always be a pro, right?

You know, growing up, it's like, hey, you know, if I can make it to the NBA, you know, that.

That would be huge.

So that was always the goal where, you know, only a very small percentage of people get to play at that level.

You know, I played against a lot of pros and with a lot of pros from an NBA standpoint, but, you know, my career, although I had a good one, it was.

It wasn't where it needed to be to make an NBA roster.

So after college, although there was a lot of success, you know, from a basketball and a team perspective, individually, you know, I wasn't where I needed to be to make an NBA roster.

I did get invited.

I had a small invite to the Milwaukee Bucks free agent camp.

And then, you know, once I was there, you know, you're playing against potential draft picks and people from all over the world, and it's like, whoa.

Like, you know, like with any transition, there's.

There's levels to it, right?

So, you know, I played well at the camp, but not well enough to make a roster.

So my.

My adventure took me overseas to Europe.

Now, it's worth being noted, I took a year off from professional basketball through the advice of my dad and coach, Beau Ryan, to get my degree.

Because I just, you know, my dad, he was on me from the time I stepped on campus till, you know, my eligibility was up.

You're not going to school just for basketball.

You know, I just.

I could hear his voice in my head.

Now you're there to get that piece of paper, meaning my degree, you know, so you're there to get that piece of paper.

You're not there to just play basketball.

So for me, that.

That's always stuck with me.

So I decided to forego a year of playing professionally to stick around to finish up a few classes that I needed to finish up to graduate.

And during that time I was a student assistant coach for the men's basketball team, in which that was my introduction into coaching, which, you know, I'm sure we'll get into later.

I won't get into too many details about that, but.

So I set out a year, you know, kept playing, staying in shape, and then the following year I went over to Europe to play.

And my adventures took me to Latvia was my first contract that I signed, and it was over in Eastern Europe.

And you want to talk about a culture shock and a wake up call call.

It was like, whoa.

It was a huge culture shock and wake up call for me in a sense where, you know, here I am in a completely different environment where there's not many people, if any, that look like me, for one.

And now you throw in a cultural difference, you know, from a language barrier to, you know, food and transportation and just a variety of things, you know, for me that, you know, you know, I hadn't expected up to that point.

But for me, I'm always a person who is willing to learn and observe and, you know, I want to experience different things in life.

So, you know, I took it as another challenge.

You know, you're stepping into the unknown and here we are.

So ended up going over and playing in Estonia.

Great experience, high level basketball in Eastern Europe and, you know, but at the same time, you know, you're, you're starting from the ground up.

You know, you're working for that paycheck now you're getting paid to play the travel ain't, you know, what you're used to, you know, you're, you know, you're not getting chartered flights and, you know, steak and lobster for your team meals.

And, you know, it was a different ball game even though you're a pro athlete, you know, so being in Estonia was a different experience.

But, you know, I faced some challenges because things started to take a turn where I wasn't getting my money on time and, you know, they didn't give me an apartment when they were supposed to.

And, you know, things of that nature, you know, I called them Eastern promises in my book.

You know, everything kept getting promised, but, you know, nothing was being delivered.

So I had to go to my agent, you know, and sort of demand like, hey, like, we need to find a better situation.

And fortunate enough, you know, where I had done enough in Estonia to where an opportunity came about in Latvia.

And that ended up being a really, really good experience, you know, just a really good overall organization.

And they were very professional, did things the right way.

It was a great level of ball.

And when I, when I went from Estonia to Latvia, it was definitely a great, a great transition, a great experience in a positive way where I was able to make an impact on the court, you know, played throughout Europe.

We played in the Euro cup, which is, I believe, a step under the Euro league.

So I mean, just high level basketball across the board.

Got a chance to visit different countries and, and play against a different caliber of players and you know, take in the culture and, and it was an overall great experience, you know.

So when I came back from Europe, I was definitely a changed man.

You know, here I am a, a guy from the inner city of Milwaukee.

You know, at certain points in my life, I didn't know where my next meal was going to come from.

And I was wearing my cousin's clothes.

There were two, three sizes too big, you know, because I didn't, you know, my family didn't have money to give me clothes.

And here I am traveling the world doing something I love, you know.

So when I came back, I just had a completely different outlook and perspective on life, you know, in a sense where I was, you know, just overall more developed from a holistic standpoint.

When you think about that, where did that then start to point you in terms of the rest of your life?

Obviously we know that you eventually get into coaching and you mentioned earlier that year that you took where you were the student assistant, but that more worldview, what did you start thinking about as you were coming back?

You see that you're playing career at some point is going to end.

What is it that you decide then I want to do?

What's the next move that you make in order to, to, to start moving forward?

And how did that experience in Europe kind of lead you in that next.

Next direction?

Yeah, so that experience in Europe, you know, I was thinking at the time I had to do more reflection and decide like, okay, is this something that I want to chase for the next 10 years, you know?

Cause a lot of people don't talk about, especially athletes, they don't talk about how lonely it is, you know, being a professional athlete.

Yeah, you make good money and you know, you get notoriety and you know, you get to play at a high level, but like, it's a lonely business, especially when you go over to Europe, you know.

So for me, I was over there and it was just me, you Know, and it was very lonely.

It was.

It was a challenging time and I had to do some self reflection and ask myself, is this something that I want to continue to chase or do I want to pivot in another direction?

And for me, through my experience the previous year of coaching, it kind of sparked a new interest for me.

And, you know, I said, hey, this is an avenue I can take where I can continue to impact the game in a positive way and, you know, pass down knowledge that was given to me as I was coming up through the ranks as a player.

And that's where coaching sort of came into play for me, where it was like, this could be a good.

A good transition, a good career path.

And I decided to get into coaching and, and yeah, from there was able to get some pretty cool opportunities where I was afforded an opportunity to coach AAU basketball when I came back from Europe, back in my.

In my hometown of Milwaukee, and, and had a lot of good experiences with that and thought that I would be doing that for a few years before I was able to crack into the college ranks.

And then I coached AAU for the spring.

And then that summer, early that summer, an opportunity came about where I was afforded an opportunity to join a staff at a Division 2 school in Colorado, Adams State College, in the middle of nowhere in the mountains in Colorado.

And, you know, when I got offered that opportunity, you know, you might as well, it was like I got offered a job at Duke because I was just so excited, you know, and my wife now, which was my girlfriend at the time, you know, she was just graduating and finishing up in Madison, and I floated the idea of, hey, you know, would you.

Would you want to take on this journey with me?

And, you know, and fortunate enough, she said, yeah, you know, so I knew I was a good recruiter right off the bat, you know, I thought they're into following me into the unknown in the middle of nowhere and.

And yeah, man, we moved to Colorado and we were there for a year and thought that that was going to be a situation where we were in for a couple of years before I was able to, you know, crack into the Division 1 ranks.

And lo and behold, another opportunity comes about where, you know, I get a call from T.J. altzelberger, who was the head coach at Iowa State now, heck of a coach.

He was an assistant then at Iowa State.

And, you know, he had been watching me over the years, and we come from the same area, he's from the Milwaukee area as well, and he calls and, you know, offers me an Opportunity to be a graduate assistant at Iowa State.

And it was an opportunity that I couldn't turn down.

It was an opportunity to get into the Division 1 ranks and then also get in an environment where, you know, I could learn from some really good coaches.

Greg McDermott, who's the coach at Creighton, who just retired, he was the head coach at Iowa State then.

So we went to Iowa State and it's thrusted into the.

We get thrusted into the Big 12 environment.

And what an experience, man.

I learned a lot about the day to day of what it takes to, you know, run a successful high level Division 1 program.

And I was just trying to be a sponge in that moment and learn from all of the great assistant coaches and, and you know, Coach Mack and the players as well, and thought that I would be doing that for a couple of years, you know, getting my master's at time being, which takes a couple of years.

And then lo and behold, another opportunity comes about a year later to be a Division 1 assistant.

And Tony Bennett, he was the head coach at Washington State at the time.

He had rubbed shoulders with Wayne Tinkle, who was the head coach at Montana.

Wayne was just at Oregon State for a number of years.

And Tony calls me and say, hey, would you have any interest in talking to the coach from Montana?

And I'm like, of course, Tony.

Are you kidding me?

So there's context there, obviously.

I played for Tony's dad my freshman year.

That's who recruited me to Wisconsin.

So then I linked up with Wayne Tinkle and everything went well.

And for the third year in a row, my wife and I were moving and we packed our bags and went out to Montana.

And that was just an amazing four years, man.

We won three conference championships, went to the NCAA tournament three times in four years.

And we lost in a championship game, the game that we didn't go.

And you know, we had some unbelievable teams and lot of success, a lot of winning.

And then, you know how it goes, man, the profession, you win, you know, it draws interest.

And I get a call from a good friend of mine, Nate Pomade, who's actually now he's second in charge for the NABC under Craig Robinson.

And Craig Robinson was the head coach, who's Michelle Obama's older brother.

And Nate Pommaday calls me about an opportunity to join Oregon State staff.

And that was quite the experience.

You know, I had to work my tail off to get on that staff and was able to get on staff there.

And that was an unbelievable experience.

You know, not Even just from a basketball standpoint, but more so from a standpoint of being around Craig Robinson and being around a family environment.

You know, it opened my eyes to a different side of the business and the sport, because everything is so transactional in college athletics, especially today, where a lot of people don't necessarily put as big of an emphasis on the relationship piece, in my opinion, and the family environment.

And I thought Craig did a heck of a job of showcasing that within his vision and his program, you know, where it was just a family environment.

And he taught us all, not only the staff, but the players, about life outside of athletics and outside of competition, and it was just a very welcoming environment.

And, you know, I just wish we had more time.

You know, we were on staff there for a year, and then, unfortunately, we got let go.

So here I am, another move for my wife and I, and long story short, man, we, you know, we ended up going to a number of different places after that.

But, you know, the values and things that I took with me from each place, you know, helped me sort of carve out an identity as a coach and as a person, you know.

You know.

You know, at all of those different stops and the different things that I learned, you know, from the different cultures and the different coaches that I.

That I worked up under.

So, you know, almost 20 years in the profession, man, and, you know, it was just a fabulous experience.

And, you know, it's just so many things that I took from those experiences that, you know, even to this day, now that I'm a teacher, I teach PE and health at the high school level in the Green Bay area.

You know, there's things that I take from those times at those different spots that I incorporate into my teaching as I try to help and shape and mold, you know, the youth that's coming up behind us.

All right, first question.

Did your wife know what she was getting into when she agreed to go to Colorado for that first time?

Did she have any idea?

I don't think she did early on, but as it progressed, I think she understood, which is why she went back to school to become a doctor, because, you know, the profession is brutal as well as you.

You know, there's highs, and then those lows come shortly.

You know, those.

Those lows come, you know, as well as the highs do.

So she kind of had some foresight where she understood how volatile the profession was, and she went back to school to become a doctor, and.

And that allowed me to transition from coaching into teaching a lot easier once she got pregnant with Our first kid, man, you know, I recognized that I had to make a change because I wanted to be around my kid growing up, and the demands of coaching just doesn't allow that, especially if you want to be good.

So, you know, I was able to make that transition a lot easier than I would have because my wife had the foresight, you know, to go back to school, to become a doctor.

When you weighed out the decision of staying in coaching, leaving coaching, and you thought about sort of the two sides of that scale, what were the things that you weighed that you really loved about coaching that you knew you were going to miss versus the things that you were going to gain by stepping away from it and being able to.

Obviously, one of those being spending time with your family.

But just how did you weigh those two things out when you were making the decision?

Yeah, I mean, it's.

It's a tough decision, you know, like, with any.

Anybody who's making a transition when something's been a part of their life for so long, and then not only that, it's helped mold them into the person that they are, you know, through the lessons.

Like, it was a very tough decision in a sense where, you know, you're used to having the same routines, you know, you're used to being around players and other coaches and recruiting and, you know, sort of having tunnel vision to where you're trying to be the best that you can be, to help the team be the best that they can be, you know.

So for me, though, when I weighed everything out versus, you know, what was ahead of me, you know, the decision was an easy one.

You know, I was choosing Team Owens all day, you know, because my wife and I had put off having a kid for so many years because of the profession.

You know, we didn't want to take a family through all of the different moves.

I mean, we moved 17.

I mean, we moved 10 times in 17 years.

You know, so, like, we never really stayed at one place for too long.

You know, we had a couple of stints where we spent four years, but that was the most we spent in any one place.

So, you know, we didn't want to take a kid through that.

You know, changing schools and relocating and having to find different friends and, you know, all of the things that come along with being a coach.

You know, granted, a lot of great things come along with being a coach, but, you know, for where we were in our lives up to that point, you know, I had to make that transition, you know, for our family.

So, you know, my wife, God, Bless her.

She'd been following me all around the country, and, you know, for me, it was just a matter of showing her some gratitude and respect as she was starting to take off in her career.

You know, whereas early on in our relationship, it was about following me around and doing everything that she could to support me and what I was trying to accomplish as a coach.

And now, you know, it was like, okay, it's about her now and our family, you know, helping support her as she was thriving in her career and then, you know, ultimately trying to bring life, you know, bring life into this, into.

Onto the earth and try to raise him, you know, to the best of our abilities.

And I just thought that as a coach, it would have been really tough for me to do that.

Not only am I putting a lot on her plate because, you know, she has a demanding career, you know, as a pharmacist now, you know, you throw a newborn on her plate, and I'm gone all the time.

And, you know, it just wouldn't have been fair in my eyes to put her through that, especially given the support that she's given me all throughout those years.

So, for me, the transition and the decision was.

Was pretty easy.

I knew what I would be giving up, but it would.

It wouldn't have been close to what, you know, I was gaining in the process.

I think that's one of the most difficult things about the coaching profession.

Right.

And I've talked to so many people, as I'm sure you have, when you were weighing that decision of the hours that it takes to be a great coach, to build a great program, to build the relationships with your players.

All that stuff takes an incredible amount of time and incredible amount of energy and effort.

And all that energy and effort and that you put into your team and your players is energy that you maybe then don't have for your family at home.

And I know that coaches at every level of the game, whether you're talking about high school coaches, whether you're talking about college pro coaches, struggle with that.

Right.

And trying to find.

And I don't even know if balance is the right word, but trying to figure out how can I do both of those things well.

And I know that there are lots of coaches that struggle with that and try to figure out and come to that sort of fork in the road that you did.

Right.

Where can I continue down the same path?

Should I continue down the same path, or is there another way for me to be able to have an impact on young people?

And obviously, you've Chosen to go into a profession of teaching where you're having an impact on young people through sport, through physical education in a different way than what you were coaching, but still being able to pass down the lessons that you've been taught by again, all the people who are part of your family, who came through your life in your book and most importantly, write your son, which is kind of takes us full circle back to the start of the conversation of why you wrote the book in the first place, was to leave your son a memory of, hey, this is what my dad's life was like.

And there aren't that many kids that get the opportunity to have their parents life written down in a book that they can go and they can reference it and hopefully eventually, as he gets old enough and he reads it and he goes through the stories and that'll enable you to open up even more lines of communication with him to share what it is that you've learned to be able to have an impact on him.

And I just think that again, your story for anyone who reads the book and again, I would highly recommend going out and picking up a copy of the book.

The city of Milwaukee, the nostalgia of playground basketball, the as you said, the resilience to fight through some of the experiences that you had.

And you relate a couple of pretty scary stories that went on with you and your friends and being at gunpoint in the city of Milwaukee and just things that again, as you're reading that you think, wow, how did this guy overcome all that stuff?

And as you go through and you tell your stories in the book and through our conversation here, I get a good vision of again who Freddy Owens is as a person that enabled you to kind of work your way through those circumstances to get where you are today.

And so again, I really enjoyed the book.

It is extremely well done.

For anybody who's in our audience, please go out and listen to it.

It's just really well done.

Before we get out, Freddie, I want to ask you a two part question and then give you a chance to again share where people can find the book.

But the final question is two parts.

One, when you look ahead over the next year or two, what do you see as being your biggest challenge?

And then part two of the question, I think it's extremely relevant to you.

What is your biggest joy?

When you think about what you're doing right now, today.

And you've done and accomplished a tremendous amount of things in your life, but right now, today, what brings you the most joy?

So your biggest challenge first Your biggest joy.

Second,.

My biggest challenge, I would say for me right now is making sure I'm the dad that my son needs me to be.

You know, I'm constantly thinking about that and also being the husband that my wife needs me to be, you know, because those right now and will forever be going forward are the two most important things and people in my life, you know, so how can I be the best that I can be for my wife and for my son?

You know, and those are things that I think about constantly.

You know, am I.

Am I being enough?

Am I doing things the right way?

And, you know, I feel as though I am.

And if I wasn't, my wife would let me know, because that's just the relationship that we have.

You know, we communicate a lot, and, you know, regardless if it's good or bad, you know, we know where each other stands.

And, you know, I think that's.

That's something that's, you know, gotten us through, you know, almost 16 years of marriage and 20 years of being together.

But, you know, for me, that's my biggest challenge now and going forward.

And, you know, there's no doubt in my mind that I'll be able to rise to the occasion.

But it's just things that, you know, I think about, you know, because I think about my sons, three and, you know, the high school kids.

Even now that I teach, the world is just changing so fast, you know, and I constantly worry about, what is it gonna be like when my son is sitting in the chair as a high school freshman or, you know, a middle schooler or, you know, a high.

A college.

A college freshman or, you know, he's graduating college, going into the workforce, doing whatever it is that, you know, he has a passion for.

Like, what is the world gonna be like then?

And then also, not only what is the world gonna be like, how am I.

Like, how am I going to evolve as a father up to that point to be able to give him the advice that he needs to navigate, you know, the challenges of the world and things that may present it be presented to him, you know, as he continues to progress in life?

So, you know, those are the things that I think about now.

It used to be, what play can we.

What play can I draw up to help coach in the last, you know, seven seconds of the game and we're down two to get a three and a half, you know, you know, those are the things or, you know, how am I going to get this recruit that can really help us?

You know, things are just A lot different now, and I.

And I love every bit of it, man.

So that.

That, to answer your question, that would be the biggest challenge, you know, for me going forward.

And then what brings me the most joy is obviously being around, you know, having the time to be around my wife and son.

You know, it's 20 years, man, where it's just tunnel vision.

And, you know, as a competitor, you get so caught up in what you're doing.

And then now that I've been out of the profession and not really around the game of basketball that I have been my entire life, now I've been able to step back and see things from the outside looking in, and I realize how much time I've lost that I can't get back.

You know, being around, you know, family and being around friends and missing the big events and things that I just can't get back.

You know, like I mentioned my cousins and I being, like, siblings, you know, like, I've missed their kids growing up because I was just never around.

I was always traveling and being, you know, at games and recruiting and practice.

And, like, I wasn't around, I didn't get a chance to spend a lot of time around my cousins, who I'm very close to and, you know, see them be able to raise their kids.

I have a lot of younger brothers and sisters, half brothers and sisters, you know, on my father's side that I wasn't around a lot, you know, and they're young adults now, in their, you know, early to mid-20s.

I wasn't around them much growing up, you know, being able to provide that big brotherly advice.

You know, a lot of my best friends had kids I wasn't around, you know, them.

I'm godparents to a lot of those kids.

Like, I wasn't around, you know, so just looking back, you know, it just.

Although coaching provided a lot of great experiences and opportunities, it just kind of sucks looking back because, like, I think about all of the time that I lost with loved ones that I can't get back, you know, so what brings me joy is, you know, being able to have that time to hang out with my son, hang out with my wife, or go visit my cousins who live in a different part of the state, or go visit my best friends who live in a different part of the state, and, you know, having the time available to be able to do those things.

And then also what brings me joy is being in a position to be a PE and health teacher, you know, teaching the youth the importance of exercising and Eating right, and things that they'll carry forward, you know, in their lives for as long as they live, you know, because, you know, it needs to be an emphasis on those things because times are just so different now.

You know, you think about COVID and how it's changed things for these kids because it forced them to be in a situation where they were in the house a lot, you know, in front of a computer screen, in front of a tv, because they couldn't get out and be active.

So, like, the mentality is completely different now when it comes to being active and doing things that benefits the body in a healthy way.

Not only just the body, the mind as well.

So being in a position where I can help make that impact as a teacher, like, that brings me joy as well.

Because there's nothing like sitting in a classroom and you're teaching a kid about something, and then I use a life experience of something that I went through or how things used to be, and you see the light go on, you know, with one of these kids, and they come and they ask you questions and like, to me, that's really cool, you know, because, you know, coaching, you're giving back and you're helping teach basketball and also life lessons related to sports.

But now I'm teaching sort of those same lessons, but just in a different way now.

And for me, like, that's very fulfilling.

It's really good stuff.

And I think it clearly summarizes what we talked about in our conversation and also the journey that you went through in your life to be able to take the lessons that you learned and now to be able to impact other young people who are coming up in situations that may or may not be similar to yours, but that you can have an influence on who they are and who they're going to eventually become.

Before we wrap up, I want to give you a chance to share.

How can people connect with you?

Email, social media website.

Where can they find the book?

Give us all the details of where people can connect with you and.

And go out and pick up a copy of the book.

And then after you do that, I'll jump back in and wrap things up.

Yeah.

So for anybody interested in, you know, having any.

Just conversations, honest conversations as it relates to basketball, coaching, life in general, they can always reach me on my email at freddy, spelled f r e double d I e dot owens o w e n s@icloud.com and then you can also follow me on my IG account, which is Freddy Owens, 24.

There's also I have a website if anybody's interested in keynote speaking and workshop opportunities as it relates to my book and the website is www.freddyowensofficial.com perfect.

Freddie cannot thank you enough for taking the time out of your schedule today to join us.

Really appreciate it.

And to everyone out there, thanks for listening and we will catch you on our next episode.

Thanks thanks for listening to the Hoop Heads podcast presented by Head Start Basketball Sam.