Dallas Burnett: Hey everybody.
We're talking to Jeff Bones Bonner today.
What an amazing guy He is a former combat fighter pilot and squadron commander,
Harvard trained performance strategist, current airline captain, and the
creator of the debrief Advantage system has some incredible stories from high
stakes missions in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Were debriefing turned raw experience into growth.
Plus he's a great new friend of mine.
You don't want to miss this incredible conversation.
Welcome to the last 10%.
Your host, Dallas Burnett, dives into incredible conversations that
will inspire you to finish well.
And finish strong, strong.
Listen as guests share their journeys and valuable advice on living in the last 10%.
If you are a leader, a coach, a business owner, or someone looking to
level up, you are in the right place.
Remember, you can give 90% effort and make it a long way, but it's finding
out how to unlock the last 10%.
That makes all the difference in your life, your relationships, and your work.
Now, here's Dallas.
Welcome, welcome, welcome.
I am Dallas Burnett, sitting in my 1905 Koch Brothers
Barber chair in Thrive Studios.
But more importantly, today we have a great guest, Harvard trained
performance strategist, author of The Daily Debrief, creator of the Debrief
Advantage, former Combat Fighter pilot, now flying as an airline captain.
Welcome to the show, Jeff.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: Thank you very much, Dallas.
It's great to be here with you.
Dallas Burnett: Man, I tell you, I'm kind of jealous 'cause when I was growing
up, the one thing, I mean, I grew up in the eighties, the man top guns there.
And I mean, you know, you just had these dreams of being a fighter pilot.
So As a kid.
I always wanted to be a fighter pilot, was going to go to the.
Air Force Academy and just do the whole thing, man.
And it didn't work out.
And I was like always like, man, what the dream that could have been.
But then when I was 40, I found out I was colorblind.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: Ha.
Dallas Burnett: I was out, I was done, I was done before I got started.
So it worked out.
But hey man.
tell us a little bit about you and how you got into flying and
Were you always inspired to be in the military and fly planes?
What was, what's your story?
Yeah.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: Yeah.
That's great, Dallas.
Thanks again for, for having me.
And you know, a lot of it is exactly what you just mentioned right there with
the, you've made that reference to Top Gun and how many folks in our generation
got that, you know, saw that movie and was just like, that's exactly what I
Dallas Burnett: Yeah.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: And I was one of those.
I remember going, as a teenager with my dad, who, served in Vietnam
and, and has been an inspiration to me throughout my life.
From the military perspective, and I, I remember going to the
movie to see that for the first
Dallas Burnett: Oh man.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: I, and then, you know, the bug was kind of planted
and then air shows and blue angels
Dallas Burnett: Oh wow.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: we were going, you know?
So yeah, I knew it a very early age, and I've been super blessed
to be able to pursue that passion.
For aviation throughout, throughout my life and, and now being blessed
to be able to share some of those lessons learned from aviation
to help others on their path.
Dallas Burnett: Yeah.
That's awesome.
That's really awesome.
So how did you go from, all right, being inspired.
What was, I guess, what was the hardest thing about going from, you know, the
grind of the dream when you're, when you look back, getting from this dream as
a kid, you know, seeing the Blue Angels going to Top Gun, your dad's already
doing this thing, it's like military.
What was the hardest part for you to transition from that
and turn that dream into?
I'm strapping in and I'm taking off.
Like, what, what was that like?
Yeah,
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: Yeah.
Dallas Burnett: and a lot of it's.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: like all of us, right?
We, we set high, high, goals in our life and it's just, you know, kind
of a, it's not a straight line.
we achieve and then we have a setback, and then we achieve,
and then we have a setback.
And that was really my story as well.
I, I just had such a passion for wanting to fly jet.
Airplanes off of ships.
That
Dallas Burnett: Longest
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: for the longest time for me, I thought
Dallas Burnett: that past
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: was going to take me.
Through the Navy
Dallas Burnett: I got
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: to college and
Dallas Burnett: talking to
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: the Navy recruiter.
And at the time, in the early nineties, uh, the, the Navy was recruiting
Dallas Burnett: from a perspective they wanted
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: engineering background for their, for their
pilots and their air crew.
And that wasn't me.
so I had to kind of try and find a different
Dallas Burnett: That way.
That way was
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: through the Marine Corps and.
that's
Dallas Burnett: where my
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: path led me.
Dallas Burnett: wow
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: uh, it's been, other than marrying my wife, that's
been the blessing, the biggest
Dallas Burnett: defense
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: decision
Dallas Burnett: made.
Oh wow.
That's awesome.
That is awesome.
So now you have, you got to land on an aircraft carrier and, and do, uh, so
you have done that, even if you're not Navy, you can still land on an aircraft.
So what is that like?
Just take me through, 'cause I mean like that's just got to me.
That's got, I mean, it's automatic.
When you come in on a landing in a commercial jet, you know that you come
down, you're like, oh, that's a little bumpy, or That's smooth, whatever.
I can't imagine the, how it feels to land.
It looks like on a, on a little, a penny in the ocean.
You know?
I just can't imagine.
So take us through what that's like.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: Yes, it, it, it is a very unique experience and it's
one that for, for carrier aviators, you never forget your first time.
you know, I vividly now, even though it's been, you know, 40 plus
years ago, I, I vividly remember circling overhead, the ship and.
looking down, before we were in our landing sequence and, and just
thinking, you know, how did I get here?
Kind of thing.
Right?
so, but, but then at some point the training kicks in and, and I was blessed
later in my career to actually teach.
Carrier Aviate the next generation of, Navy and Marine Corps
Dallas Burnett: Wow.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: and that's when you know, it's one thing when
you do it, but then when you start to teach it and, and understand
how to get someone else to do it.
That really is a whole different passion, and I'm sure you can relate to that
where, where you've kind of had a way that you've, you've seen through, and,
and now it's time for you to share that and help others get to obtain that.
So
Dallas Burnett: Yeah.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: yeah, it's a true blessing.
Dallas Burnett: That's awesome.
That's really great.
I always, I always thought that would just be the, the most epic experience
to go down on the air aircraft grid and just land on the top deck.
That's just incredible.
So, so now when you're going through, you joined, how long were you in
the, the military and flying before the whole thing broke out in Iraq
and Afghanistan, all that stuff?
What, what was that like in terms of your experience?
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: Yeah, so I graduated college in 1994 and then went to,
Dallas Burnett: Marine Corps,
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: They call it the Basic
Dallas Burnett: which
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: is, an infantry officer, kind of all Marine Corps
officers or infantry, focused.
So
Dallas Burnett: that and went
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: went to flight school and, and I got wing
Dallas Burnett: finished.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: flight school in 1998
Dallas Burnett: then
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: You know,
Dallas Burnett: 2000, oh
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: is when, when, you know, the 2001, the world, the
Dallas Burnett: center.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: nine 11.
And then, and then oh three is
Dallas Burnett: Iraq all took off.
Sorry.
Yes.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: Yes.
Dallas Burnett: So you had been in it for quite some time and already
been flying, so that was, it wasn't like you just kind of walked in
and had it was shipped out, right?
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
And
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: I, and so many
Dallas Burnett: know, you and I were
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: I I'm sure have
Dallas Burnett: stories where about timing and
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: in life, right?
Dallas Burnett: yes.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: experiences and, and, and I just was very,
very fortunate to hit timing
Dallas Burnett: Where I
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: I
Dallas Burnett: opportunities
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: Like, you know, deploying and, and able to
serve our country in ways that, just because I happened to have
the right qualifications and be in the right spot at the right time.
And that was a great example when, when the TA twin Towers fell
there in, nine 11, I was already, you know, a combat certified.
Pilot.
Dallas Burnett: ready.
You're, you're just like, it's like game on.
You know?
Let's go.
Yeah.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: time to go.
Yeah.
The machine was woken up for
Dallas Burnett: Oh wow.
So now that was an amazing time.
Just a wild, wild time.
but I, you know, a lot of times as leaders, some of the things, and
we have a lot of business owners, leaders, entrepreneurs, coaches
that listen to the last 10%.
And so a lot of times we're shaped as leaders by our experiences,
and you've gone through and you've kind of achieved this dream.
Getting to this place and, and you're in, you're strapping in the cockpit,
taking off, doing your thing, and then nine 11 happens and all, all this other
stuff opens up in the theater of war.
you had some interesting experiences as just right out the gate.
Tell us about some of that and how you experienced going from, Hey, I'm in
the military, flying to the difference of, oh, this is, this is live.
how did that kind of transpire and how did that shape you?
Yeah, that's a great question because that very
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: point, was.
Really
Dallas Burnett: was a trajectory of my life
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: and I, I remember sitting on the flight deck
Dallas Burnett: prior
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: to my very first
Dallas Burnett: that
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: mission, and
Dallas Burnett: were operating
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: in the Northern
Dallas Burnett: golf just off the coast of,
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: of Kuwait.
Dallas Burnett: and just prior
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: the.
Dallas Burnett: the, you
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: captain fixes,
Dallas Burnett: know,
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: know,
Dallas Burnett: the pilot
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: pilot strap into the ejection seat.
And on that particular day, it was really early in the campaign.
These were initial waves of combat operations for most everybody,
all the pilots, the, the, the ships crew, everybody was, we
were all kind of new to this.
And just prior to stepping down, I remember the plane captain said words.
Dallas that I'll never forget.
He said, good luck, sir. This time it's for real.
And I just, you know, and, and he meant all the best intentions, of
Dallas Burnett: Yeah.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: but I, I remember as I closed the canopy and sat there in the
silence of the airplane, I just remember thinking to myself, I've trained my
entire adult life for this very moment.
And then that led me to.
Other thoughts?
Thoughts of what if I go out there and make a mistake?
What if I drop a bomb on the wrong target?
What if I get shot down and never see my family again?
And all these questions are rolling through my mind and they lead me
to the greatest question of all.
What if I'm not good enough?
And
Dallas Burnett: I
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: will tell you that that
Dallas Burnett: Question
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: Dallas
Dallas Burnett: changed.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: The trajectory of my life, because
Dallas Burnett: That is a very,
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: human question and, and we've all
Dallas Burnett: we've
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: I have the opportunity now to speak with,
with teams and organizations,
Dallas Burnett: all.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: all over the world
Dallas Burnett: And have studied individual and
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: that regardless of what culture
Dallas Burnett: culture
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: from,
Dallas Burnett: where your background is
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: is, what language you speak.
That sense of being a real challenge and what if I'm not good enough,
something that is deeply human.
And so what
Dallas Burnett: Been able to do that.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: is I spend
Dallas Burnett: my patch flying airplanes,
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: still,
Dallas Burnett: then I also
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: pursued this
Dallas Burnett: passion of
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: of,
Dallas Burnett: of developing.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: a debrief
Dallas Burnett: That helps people know that when they have that
question arise in their life.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: life, they're ready.
Dallas Burnett: Wow.
I think that's so true.
I mean, it's the difference in what you see in the Top Gun movie when
the, you know, they're on the deck and they're, you know, and it goes off.
It's like, take off.
Well, that's, that's Hollywood.
And then there's real life where the real pops sitting there and.
Hey, am I?
am I good enough?
Am I gonna make this?
And I think that's, you're right.
So, and it doesn't matter if you are, because whenever we go into something
new, like you're talking about the Theater of War, you've prepared.
But like this is like, he said, this is for real, you know?
And you can go to college, but when you come out and you start the job,
it's like, oh, this is for real.
Or when you leave your job and you go, I'm starting my own
business, I'm going on my own.
Man, that first day when the alarm clock goes off, you go, oh my gosh,
is this like, am I good enough?
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: That's right.
That's right.
Dallas Burnett: I think it's totally human.
Yeah.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: Absolutely very human, and particularly
for those, the high achievers,
Dallas Burnett: yeah.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: the last 10% is filled with that question, in my
opinion, because that's where you're really in, you're separating yourself
from those that, that rather it's in entrepreneurship or athletics or, You
know, just in family life as you know, these things about, pushing ourselves
to be better, that question comes up
Dallas Burnett: I think two.
I think one of the things that is interesting is if you don't have a really
good way of answering that question, it can cause you to do some things
that are probably self-destructive.
Because if you just can't get over that and you just constantly, am I good enough?
Am I good enough ain't good enough?
You know, it can drive you to do some things that are probably
unhealthy in trying to be good enough.
You know what I mean?
Like unhealthy ways of dealing with that.
So I would love to know like what surprised you?
I mean, 'cause you're in the military, it's highly organized,
highly structured, you, you know, you've been training for this.
did they equip you to deal with that question and was there any kind of
differences in, when you've come out of it in kinda the private sector that you saw?
Like, was there anything that surprised you about being in that
once you asked that question, or more surprising once you got out?
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: Yes.
The biggest thing that I learned in the military, and particularly in, Combat
fighter aviation, is that the discipline the relentless passion of debriefing?
Dallas Burnett: Mm.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: as a strategy, really taking an event, a flight
that's occurred, and breaking it down in such a structured discipline way.
Where it's not about assigning blame, it's not about, you know, pointing
what went wrong, although there is an element of identifying what went
wrong because we need to identify that so that we can be better.
But everybody on the team, every, in the culture of, of fighter
aviation, the debrief is built around one and only one principle, which
is how do we be better tomorrow?
How do we learn from what happened today so that we're going to
be better aviators tomorrow?
Because at the end of the day, the speeds and the complexity of the
missions, that individual that, you know, combat, fight, or pilots
fly, you can't be in reactive mode.
You have got to be ready for those days and those events and those sorties and so.
The debrief is something that I've now, through my postgraduate work
Dallas Burnett: Studied.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: about how can we take these principles of debriefing
that work so efficiently and effectively aviation, and how can we bridge
those to other folks so that they can use a de a structured debrief
model to improve performance in their
Dallas Burnett: Ah, that's awesome.
So you actually took, what, one of the things that you were, you know, kind
of taught in the military, in these, the theater of war, and, and, and
translating it now to, to everyone, and I think that's really great.
Well, I would say, you know, what was the biggest surprise, the, the
biggest difference when you were over there and you got into it, you started
running your missions and things.
What was the biggest surprise for you?
Like the biggest shock for you when you're over there?
You're doing what you're supposed to be doing.
Was there anything that you just left and went, oh my God,
like I was not expecting that
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: I,
Dallas Burnett: I would.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: say that one of the biggest things
that, that I learned that was.
The more complex the mission, simpler the tactics had to be.
Unbelievably.
So you, I couple exposures I had were of the thought process
of, you know, most complex.
So we really need to be complex in our execution, and it's
actually just the opposite.
What I learned, the simpler things can
Dallas Burnett: The effective
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: they have to be success.
And I'll just tell you one example I, I remember in Afghanistan flying, and.
course, you know, our
Dallas Burnett: communication.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: is encrypted so they can't, so it can't be intercepted.
And I remember I was coming off of, a mission to
Dallas Burnett: to air refuel and there
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: there was
Dallas Burnett: tanker.
At the correct location.
At the right spot at the.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: the right altitude, at the pre-brief, time and.
Dallas Burnett: And I couldn't, I couldn't talk to them and they couldn't talk to me.
So we had two airplanes and it was like
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: two in the morning.
Dallas Burnett: dark out and it was one,
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: of these things that
Dallas Burnett: it was like, well, when
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: you know,
Dallas Burnett: something as simple as just talking to that other
airplane, you would think it all
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: in all the complexity of what's
Dallas Burnett: just to a simple.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: simple, how do I talk
Dallas Burnett: This airplane
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: to that airplane?
You know, we've been flying for.
You know,
Dallas Burnett: many years
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: and
Dallas Burnett: communication.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: you wouldn't think would be one of the biggest challenges.
But, you know, we ended up basically just doing no
communication, air-to-air refueling.
He figured it out.
I figured it out and, and we got it done.
But it really is
Dallas Burnett: It really
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: it
Dallas Burnett: is an example
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: of some of the simplest things that
you think are going to happen
Dallas Burnett: there.
If you add any complexity in there,
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: it's gonna go off the rails.
Dallas Burnett: I That is amazing.
What a great story too, because I can't imagine, I'm just sitting here when you're
talking, thinking like hell in the world.
What would I do?
I'm sitting there in the cockpit like, okay, I gotta get this guy,
we gotta line up in precision and there's all kind of fuel and air and
sparks and, you know, blowing up.
And I just, I'm like, you know, I don't wanna do that at two in the morning,
and be a firework and over, over Iraq.
So like, how?
Man, that is intense.
And it's like you said though, it's a very simple thing.
All you need to do is radio over to 'em.
Say, Hey, this is what I need you to do, do this, I'm gonna do that.
And it's good.
But you, when you can't do that, it makes, it makes something so simple.
Seem very much more.
Much more complex, so that's interesting.
Okay.
Well let's talk a little bit about this because you, you talked about debrief,
you know, kind of what, was there any like moment or, or was there anything
that idea, that really inspired you to say, I need to take this back.
Like I need to, this, this is a thing and I need to go and
share this with other people.
Was there something that drove that idea?
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: Well there, there was, so I was, I had the opportunity
after I came back from my second tour in Afghanistan to do some post-graduate work
Dallas Burnett: Harvard.
Mm-hmm.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: we were sitting in a cross-cultural
communica, leadership class.
And I remember sitting next to a colleague of mine and the idea was.
let's relatively small class, maybe 30 students.
The idea was how can we learn from each other's diverse backgrounds
Dallas Burnett: Right.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: take the kind of, do a best of
Dallas Burnett: Yeah.
Right.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: and collaborate and see what's happening in the world
of finance and business and see what's happening in government and see what's
happening in, in these different areas.
And, and I was kind of the military voice in that.
In that room.
And, and I remember a colleague, she turned to me and she was
like, how do you all perform at, at, at a high level consistently?
How do you get that level of consistency where you're always right?
Like it's, it, it's not clockwork because, There are, you know, some missions
don't go as well as, as, as we hope, but over across the board, it's the idea of
performing at a high level consistently.
And pondering on that thought I came up with the idea of, really the
Dallas Burnett: To her
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: question was
Dallas Burnett: because we have a system of
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: of debrief that drives
Dallas Burnett: continuous,
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: improvement.
Dallas Burnett: again, getting back to that
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: that idea of
Dallas Burnett: better tomorrow.
Yeah.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: and,
Dallas Burnett: everybody,
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: buys into the
Dallas Burnett: yeah.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: Everybody buys in
Dallas Burnett: Wow.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: and,
Dallas Burnett: So that kind
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: of triggered the idea of, well,
Dallas Burnett: of how can I package this
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: this and
Dallas Burnett: can we work collaboratively to transfer this
to other folks so that they can benefit from the lessons learned?
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: that were from.
Military?
Yeah.
and apply a debrief strategy that's simple, efficient, and quick enough
that they'll actually do it to move the needle in their life.
Dallas Burnett: I think that's so good because it's not about, I
mean, you are the best, but when you're the best, you still have
to be the best at getting better.
'cause you're always the target.
Right.
You know?
So we got, we got, we might be the best, but we definitely gotta
be the best at getting better.
And that's what you're talking about here when I think about
the debrief, is that system, it's really interesting too, because
it's a system that drives a culture.
You said it, you said everybody bought in.
And so I think that's a fascinating approach because, you know, people talk
about company culture, but company, you know, I, I had a friend of mine put it
on the whiteboard and I do it on all of my whiteboards I'll drive is, is
culture is what we do around here, right?
So it's what we do that counts.
It's not the values on the wall, it's what you're taking out the door
and you're walking and living out, you know, so it, it is, what you're
saying is, it's interesting because this is a system that was put in place
that can be very intentional about.
Driving a culture of improvement.
And I think that's really fascinating.
'cause I think sometimes we might say, oh, we want to, we want to get better,
or, oh, we want to, we wanna do that.
But if you can't point to something specific and concrete to say, this is how
we do it, and if there's one thing that you're gonna buy into is this right here.
Because it fundamentally defines who we, who we say we are.
And I think that's a, I think it's a really powerful concept.
So if you're leading a team.
If you're leading an organization, if you're coaching someone, can you point
to something that's directly in alignment with a value that you're trying to live?
Not an aspirational value.
I'm talking about a defining value.
Something that says this thing defines who we are.
And so, you know, like what you're saying, Jeff is like.
We were defined by doing this.
This debrief helped us define about how we get better every single day.
We're gonna get better every single day.
I think it's so important for team leaders.
How are you, how are you as a team improving?
and if you are not, if you don't have something intentional that
you can point to that you're doing.
Consistently, how do you know if you're getting better?
Because just saying you want to, and it doesn't even, and here's the other
thing, I think some, especially in organizations where they're on the climb,
it's going up and to the right, right?
Everybody's happy, everybody's doing good.
'cause the money's flowing.
Is it because you're really the best at getting better?
Or is it because you just kind of, you got struck by lightning.
You happen to be in an industry that's exploding and you just happen to
be on the ride with everybody else, and then whenever thing, whenever
it plateaus off, or tech, you know, or there's a little hiccup, all of a
sudden this is exposed that you weren't as good as you thought you were.
Right?
So.
I just think that's really, really, I think the message that you're sharing
is so important because Center Mass for leaders, coaches, and CEOs because
I think that if we can't point to that, then we're just kind of walking
blindly and hoping for the best.
Right.
So that's really good.
Really good.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: Yeah, absolutely.
There, there's so much that can, be done as far as the culture if we
can get individuals to buy into this idea of having a, a simple debrief.
that develops and once that spreads across organizations, and I've been
blessed to work with folks from, from all different kind of walks of life
and once, once we get enough folks that are, have bought into the habit
of debriefing in their own personal life, then we start to see the needle,
needle start to move with the culture.
And that's to your very
Dallas Burnett: I love that.
Let's talk a little bit about the habits.
'cause you've got a model, you know, you've got the debrief model and
you are actually helping people.
and you speak a lot about, about how we set these habits in place.
How do we turn these, you know, this, this debrief into a routine
and what does that look like?
'cause I mean, I think some people are out there probably going, I mean, I hear you.
I know that it sounds good, you know, but, but what does a good debrief look like?
I think that's what you're talking about.
What does that look like?
Yeah.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: Yeah, that's a great question.
So the debrief advantage is the name of the system that I, that
I have the honor to, work with folks around the, around with.
And, and it's based on two principles of human performance.
What the system is, it's a, it's a principle centered.
Human system for human performance that uses a debrief habit at its core.
And so we focus around.
It's built on two principles of human performance, and those principles are
prospective proceeds, performance, that's principle one improvement as follows.
Adjustments.
I would suggest to you based on the years of work that I've done in
this area of, of human performance and study and, and working with
individuals, is that those principles are there, whether we see them or not.
If we look at high performers, two principles of perspective
proceeds performance and improvement of follows adjustment.
Are, are, are in our lives and, and are.
The question is how do we align to them to achieve the kind
of results that we want to?
that's where the debrief model comes in.
And, and the debrief model that I teach is called the Great.
great debrief model, it's an acronym, G-R-E-A-T
Dallas Burnett: Five steps.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: and there's some really good lessons learned about
how the habit itself of practicing these five steps can, can really move
an organization and an individual, from really driving toward that
idea of continuous improvement.
Dallas Burnett: That's really good.
I'd like to unpack, like your first thing there where you said
perspective precedes performance.
how would you describe that in more detail to the listeners?
Because I think that's a really good concept, but I wanna
un understand that better.
So when we.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: think about how we show up in our lives, it's
really the understanding that how we perform in a situation.
Was actually influenced before we got into the situation.
Right?
And so, you know, I, I have the chance to work with athletes and sometimes
I'll work with, and, and in that scenario it's the difference between
Dallas Burnett: You're a football guy
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: it's a difference between fourth and 20
Dallas Burnett: being
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: oh, we don't have a chance.
And, and fourth and 20 being, this is my time for greatness.
Dallas Burnett: yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: how many times in our lives do we come into situations
where, how we see the situation shapes how we perform inside that situation?
And,
Dallas Burnett: And.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: when we, the, the, the five step debrief model aligns to
help us shape the proper perspective so that we're performing optimally in
the situation when we arrive at it.
Dallas Burnett: You know, that's counterintuitive when
you think about a debrief.
I think a lot of leaders hear the word debrief and they're
thinking it's about looking back.
Yeah,
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: Mm-hmm.
Dallas Burnett: but you just kind of flip the script there.
You're like, no, no, no, nah.
We're shaping the perspective of the next time you see this in or
the next time you go through this.
So we're we're the debrief Yes.
Is looking back, but it's actually the point is to shape your
perspective on the next thing.
So it's not just historical records, it's not like I'm
gonna capture all this to CYA.
So if anybody looks in the record books, they'll know it's not my
fault that this thing went wrong.
Right.
It's not.
It has nothing to do with that really.
You're talking about looking forward.
That's interesting.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: that's the whole point of it.
Again, I think back to some of the lessons learned from military aviation, and
again, the whole purpose of the debrief.
One singular purpose be better tomorrow.
So the whole shape of what we're doing is focused around how do we
develop continuous improvement so that next time we see what we're doing,
we're doing it at a higher level.
And that's what the habit allows us to do.
Dallas Burnett: I love that.
Now, let's talk about that second point you made about improvement.
Let's unpack that a little bit.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: the second principle of human performance is, as
it drives to continuous improvement, is improvement follows adjustment.
And what we're talking about here is sometimes I'll, I'll
phrase this, in the way of.
If we don't change, nothing's gonna get better.
If we keep doing what we're gonna do, we're due.
We are gonna keep getting what we're gonna be
Dallas Burnett: Yeah.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: right?
There's no way around that.
And so when we intentionally understand that, the gap is between where we
are now and where we want to be order to close that gap change.
There's no way to get there from, from where we are now to where
we want to be without change.
So the idea is how do we align with that principle of
improvement follows adjustment.
How do we dial in Dallas and, and really make the correct that are
actually gonna result in improvement?
'cause we could just go out there blindly
Dallas Burnett: So,
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: we see that.
Dallas Burnett: yeah.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: you know, in our life we see well.
Hey, you know, I just changed a bunch of things at once and one of 'em worked out
and sometimes we're fortunate in that way.
But what I would suggest a structured debrief model does
for us is it really allows
Dallas Burnett: Be very precise about what changes we.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: need to make based on the experience we just had, that's gonna
set us up for improvement in the future.
Dallas Burnett: I love that.
I think, again, it's just so interesting because it's giving a very rich picture
of how you define and describe a debrief.
It's not just a meeting that you look at, okay, we did good or we did bad.
There's so much more intentionality to it, and we talk a lot about
intention, intentionality on this.
In the last 10%.
We know if you're gonna be in the last 10%, if you're gonna live
well, if you're gonna finish strong, you've got to have intention.
And I'd love the debrief because you're saying we're gonna be intentional
about shaping our perspective.
So we we're fourth and 20.
There's not a question if, if we're gonna do it, it's like we got.
Four different options.
Which one do we want to try here?
Right?
So it's different where there's confidence that we walk in that situation.
We already have that perspective.
So where our perspective is, we've been here before, we know
what to do, let's go get it done.
Versus, oh my gosh, we're about to lose this game.
Right?
You know?
So I love that intentionality and I love the fact that you're
saying you're just going ahead and saying and calling it, look.
We've got, we've got to make adjustments if we want to get better, because if
we just keep doing the same thing, we're gonna get the same results.
And that's the definition of insanity.
Right?
So we, the, the, the fact that we can move through that, we just are
automatically, we're gonna say, we're going to build in this practice and this
habit of making adjustments to get better.
I think that's, rock steady.
I love that.
I you have the, debrief model.
You use the great acronym.
If you were to pick one of the letters out of Great that you feel like our
listeners would just be the, would just benefit the most from, can you pick one?
I mean, sometimes it's like having kids I can't pick.
They're all good, you know, I can't pick, I can't pick one.
But if you had to pick one, which one would you share today?
With, of the great, acronym that you, you think our leaders
would benefit the most from?
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: Mm. Yeah, that, that's a good question.
And, and they are all, they build on each other, right?
So the each one takes a different perspective on, on the.
As you go around, because they're mutually supportive, but I, I would say if I had to
pick one, I would pick the first one, the
Dallas Burnett: Okay.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: in the model, which stands for gratitude.
And we start with gratitude for a very intentional reason.
And that reason is because have to anchor ourselves.
To what we are grateful for to be here because that's the springboard.
We don't improve based on failure.
We improve based on success.
And so when we look at, and this gets very much to the point of aligning
with the first principle, which is perspective proceeds performance.
Well, the question then is, what's perspective should I walk into a
situation with, I would suggest, based on the years of study that I've.
Done in this area that when we look at the things that really drag us down in
performance, anger, frustration, those type of negative feelings, the one that's
kind of the antidote to all of them is gratitude the human body, we can't
process both of those at the same time.
So I, I would suggest to you that gratitude is the anchor point of, of.
Continuous improvement, that is what performance, in my opinion is based on.
Dallas Burnett: I've gotta say, you just surprised me quite a bit there.
I mean, when you said g and i wa I didn't, I didn't know what you
were gonna say, but when you said gratitude, I wasn't expecting You
got a combat fighter pilot in the military, who is talking about debriefs.
I, I just assumed it was going to be, I don't know what I assumed.
But I just didn't think gratitude would be the first.
But it's fascinating because I totally agree.
and, and I, I think that positioning your mindset, I just, that's just shocking.
That's really interesting.
Now, now I'm, now I'm interested.
Like now I'm like, oh God, there's, that's, that's there one more lesson.
So, but I just, I, I love that because of what you've, what you've
done is you've exactly what you said, you said perspective and
you're shaping the perspective.
It's, it's the mindset.
It's not just the information.
it's the information but the mindset that's shaping that perspective.
So, I mean, I, I love that.
That's really good stuff.
That,
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: that's a
Dallas Burnett: that's a great point.
You know.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: know, when I speak on this, a lot of times
people have that same reaction.
I can tell in the crowd that they're thinking, you know, this former
fighter pilot's gonna stand up there.
And when I deliver gratitude, they think.
Oh, we're gonna light candles and do yoga.
Like, what's going on here?
Right?
This is not what, this is not what I came here
Dallas Burnett: Yeah.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: and then I show a video and, and talk about the
Blue Angels, which most folks know.
they have a saying on the team called Glad to be.
after every single debrief they use, everybody on that team uses
those words, glad to be here.
And it's more
Dallas Burnett: Just,
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: a saying, it's an anchor of belief of we
Dallas Burnett: glad to be here and that's our
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: foundation for excellence.
Dallas Burnett: foundation.
Mm. Oh man.
I love that.
I love the fact that they said, we're glad to be here and that's
our foundation of excellence.
I mean, that's, that's, I think that's so missed.
When we talk about excellence, a lot of times, we'll, as leaders, I think we get
caught up in like the Six Sigma, right?
Not that there's anything wrong with Lean Six Sigma, you know, quality
improvement, whatever, a total quality.
I mean, we, the whole thing, we go all the way back, but it's.
It's not about necessarily squeezing as the saying goes, squeezing
blood outta the tournament.
Like there's this, it's not necessarily only about just getting tighter and
tighter and tighter, I think you lose the spirit of what you're there for.
You lose purpose if you don't start with.
Excellence coming from, I'm glad to be here because the
motivation comes from that, right?
Like if you, how are you motivated to really dial in the, the, if
you're just drudgery, like if you're not glad to be here, it's this
JOB, like, I'm just showing up.
You're never gonna dial it as tight.
If you go, I'm so glad to be here.
And so I, I mean, I just love that.
I love, I love that excellence really starts.
That I'm glad to be here as a foundation of excellence.
That is the first time I've heard that.
And I, man, that's, that is gold right there.
That is gold.
Oh, oh, man.
I know, I know.
The listeners are loving that.
So I'm gonna ask you this, because you talked to a lot of teams.
You talked to a lot of companies and organizations.
you've been in aviation for a long time.
You throughout your career when you know, you know, high, Essentially
high performers, you're talking about how they're reflecting, adjusting,
and improving but what are some of the obstacles that you've seen
that leaders face when they're trying to kind of implement this
debrief habit in their organization?
Like what, what kind of stumbling blocks or roadblocks do they, that
they encounter that you help 'em with?
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: Right.
So probably
Dallas Burnett: The biggest
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: ones is that the debrief is seen at the, the idea of
debriefing and, and improving performance.
There's nothing particularly, Insightful about that idea, right.
I think at some
Dallas Burnett: we all know.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: as as high performers, that if we review
what just happened, we're likely to be better the next
Dallas Burnett: Mm-hmm.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: Right, and that's the,
Dallas Burnett: So, so the challenge is not so
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: much
Dallas Burnett: much getting folks
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: to buy into the idea of a debrief.
The challenge is getting it into their workflow so that it's not
distracting from what's next in their life, because we all are busy
Dallas Burnett: what.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: is we have a cycle of.
We, we finish an event and then it's right onto the next event.
what I'm, what I work with folks to do is try and get a very, very simple,
I mean we're talking Dallas, we're talking this whole five step great
model can be done in five minutes.
Dallas Burnett: Hmm.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: or as a team.
Dallas Burnett: Wow.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: the idea is after we finish a meeting, after
we finish an event, something like that, it's gotta be repeatable.
It has to be the exact same sequence so that we're not surprising and we stay, we
don't let the debrief go off the rails.
And it's gotta be timely.
Because we've got important things to do.
We gotta get in, we gotta have a system, a structured system to pull
out the good stuff that we need to pull out to be better tomorrow.
and then we're moving
Dallas Burnett: Yes.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: I,
Dallas Burnett: I.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: would say the biggest challenge that I
see is getting folks to not get distracted and make it an hour long.
Session where we're just pointing out what went wrong.
And you know, again, it's a system for human performance, which
means we gotta deal with egos,
Dallas Burnett: Yes.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: which,
Dallas Burnett: Which means, you know,
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: we want,
Dallas Burnett: we get
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: back to the gratitude,
Dallas Burnett: we
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: We
Dallas Burnett: our
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: team to be glad to be
Dallas Burnett: yes.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: We want, we want the
Dallas Burnett: To understand that
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: we're gonna be better tomorrow.
how do we identify both what's going right, so we can repeat it?
And what we can improve on, which is things that maybe didn't go as
Dallas Burnett: right.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: and how do we get better?
Dallas Burnett: Ah, man, I love that.
I love the timely piece too, because if you just, it's like, it's so easy
when you finish something, you have the celebration, hey, you know, and
everybody goes out and you're like, on the next thing, the next bright and
shiny thing, the next pressing thing, urgent, whatever, and then you're like,
you wake up two months later and you.
You know what we need to really, and then, you know, then you've
already missed an opportunity.
And I think that's so important that, that you approach it that
way because there's so much that fidelity, it's like a loss of fidelity.
Once you, the further away you get from the event, the
more fidelity that you lose.
The picture just kind of gets dim and blurry and, You know, I think
there's so much more power if you can do it, like you said, right after it.
I just think about that from like, we do leadership summits at, for private
clients and, you know, at the end of the summit we do this debrief and, and I, I'm
just very fascinated to see your model.
'cause we might, maybe we can take that and put it in, to the sessions afterwards.
But we do it like literally we go.
Done.
And then we all, all the team goes into another room while everybody
else is going home, going to get their suitcases packing up.
We go to another room and sit around the table and we're like, okay, we just
finished five minutes ago now where we at?
And let's go.
Let's see what we got.
And so it's just.
If, but, but here's what we've done in the past too.
Somebody got out, somebody didn't come, we didn't do it.
We'd say, okay, we'll do it tomorrow.
And then next thing you know, you wake up, it's a month
later and you haven't done it.
And then you're like, man, we've lost some information.
'cause there's some things we just we're never gonna get back
if we didn't do it right then.
So I love that.
I love that.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: and you know, I know you're in the, the, the last
10% are the folks that, that debrief.
And I would even suggest statistically, it's, it's the 5%, it's the top 5% of
folks, whether it's in athletics or business or whatever, healthcare, whatever
it is, it's statistically the top 5%.
Of individuals are ones that have a structured, even in some
Dallas Burnett: Wow,
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: or fashion.
We're gonna just, like you said, we just finished the event.
Hey, we're gonna get the team together and we're gonna talk about what, what
was good, what was bad, what we can do next year, that that's elite error.
You're in right
Dallas Burnett: Well that's, that's so incredible because it's exactly
what we wanna do for our listeners.
If you're listening to the last 10%, you care about living well, finishing
strong, you're, you care about being the best at getting better.
And today is like center mass.
We're talking center mass on this.
Because I think that this habit is exactly right.
He's, you know, Jeff is telling us that the people that are living in the
last 10% are practicing really, they're being very intentional about debriefing.
So, I think that's really great.
if there was someone listening to the last 10% that's maybe stuck, big goal, team
project, personal habit, do you have any practical advice that you would give them?
And, and it may be part of your debriefing strategy or model, but what advice
would you give them to kind of break through that plateau, and finish strong?
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: Yeah, so I would suggest the, thing that it, it's the
last step of the five step model, which is the t take time for lessons learned.
And what we talk about there is simply we're trying to get 1% better.
Dallas Burnett: yes.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: it.
We're not trying, you
Dallas Burnett: Yes.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: don't like pe.
Sometimes when I talk to CEOs and they're like, you know,
Dallas Burnett: Get 10.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: Can we get the 15?
Like what ROI and these, and these are, these are important and I understand
where their question's coming from, but where I'd like to draw them
back into the mindset of is where.
We're in hot pursuit of continuous improvement
Dallas Burnett: right.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: and what that looks like.
That does not happen in leaps and
Dallas Burnett: No.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: That happens in 1% better each day.
Dallas Burnett: That's right.
Someone.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: struggling, I would suggest to you to just find some way.
That at night before when you're brushing your teeth.
We talk about doing that in the book.
We talk about anchoring the habit to brushing your teeth, right, because it,
it takes a couple minutes to do that.
You can mentally go through this five step model while you're brushing your teeth.
Find a way to just think about is one thing that I learned from today
that will make me better tomorrow?
Whether
Dallas Burnett: You know, in whatever area, whether it's your
health, whether it's your family
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: whether it's your
Dallas Burnett: or entrepreneur,
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: coach, whatever.
Dallas Burnett: just find one little nugget and if you
start building those nuggets
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: those nuggets on top
Dallas Burnett: off.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: you know, you know as well as I do
Dallas Burnett: Yeah.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: that after a while you're making some significant progress.
Dallas Burnett: love that we talk about the 1%, advantage all the time, micro
movements, because we have a coaching system that we implement and that's
literally part of the coaching system.
We say, Hey, it's just 1%.
You're looking to move them 1% this month, not, you're not looking, and I look at it
like this, like a CEO, like you're saying.
It's a great point because A CEO, you're standing on the ground and they're
already looking out the top floor of the Empire State Building and they, they can.
See it, you're both standing on the ground and they're like, man, okay,
can you take me to the, top of the Empire State building like tomorrow?
And it's like, or like right now, like in one minute and it's like, Hey, yeah,
but like, what's the likelihood of me jumping up the staircase, you know, 10,
you know, like five floors at a time.
Impossible.
But I, what's one floor?
That's a, that's a, I mean, I gotta be a high jumper to get there.
But I can take the first step and then I can take the second step.
And then over a period of time, next thing you know, you've climbed, you
know, whatever number of stories to the top of the Empire State Building.
But you don't do it all at one time.
You just, you gotta take it one step at a time.
You can't, you can't do it all at once.
And I think that's the, so it's so tempting to say what shortcut,
what elevator can I take to just take me to the top and I'm there?
And that's not where the work is.
The work, the work is what gets you there.
But to be able to sustain that is so overwhelming when you look at all this.
You know, 80 floors or a hundred floors, you're going, I gotta go all that.
No, you don't.
You just gotta take the next step, the next step, the next step.
So I think that's so true.
It's so powerful.
It's a powerful concept, man.
I'm telling you, Jeff, this has been the most fun conversation.
I really think that this is a great model.
and I know our listeners are going, we've given them two, you've given
them the first and the last, the first and the last, number one
and number five of the model.
If you wanna find out the, the three in the middle, you need to connect with Jeff.
You need to buy his book.
And so, Jeff, tell us where people can connect, where they can learn
more about the debrief model.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: Yeah, thanks Dallas.
So they can go to debrief advantage, back slash start, debrief, advantage,
backslash start, and there are all the free resources and everything
specifically for your listeners.
And that'll get 'em on the, the habit.
The model is there, there's everything they need to start
a simple, repeatable five step.
Debrief habit that's gonna drive them to continuous improvement.
Dallas Burnett: that's awesome.
If you're driving, you know, we'll put it in the show notes.
Check it out.
Check Jeff out, connect with him and Jeff, we always end the show asking every guest.
If you were to hear and listen to somebody on the last 10%,
who would you like to hear?
Be a guest on the last 10%.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: Yeah, that's great.
And I'm, I'm gonna go with, that I, I've never had an opportunity to speak
with 'em, but I have been influenced by their, their work across their life.
And that is Sammy Hagar.
I don't know if
Dallas Burnett: Wow.
Yeah,
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: fan or you know, former lead singer of Van Halen.
And,
Dallas Burnett: yeah.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: and, I just, I used to listen to his music.
Prior to every combat mission.
Dallas Burnett: Oh.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: I li now I listen to him before I go on stage and after
I, you know, I just, he gets me.
And, and not only that, his span of what he's been able to do from
where he grew up and in rock and roll hall of Fame and all that stuff.
But also he, he does a lot of great charitable work and, and he's
just a, to me, his songwriting.
Is very impactful.
So
Dallas Burnett: I love seeing,
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: hear you interview
Dallas Burnett: man.
You know what?
We'll have to, we'll have to see.
We'll reach out, we'll see if we can get our people in touch with his people and
see if we can get him on the last 10% that, Hey, listen, I'm a music buff man.
When you say music, man, that, that, that goes deep.
and I love Van Halen.
That is really great.
So, yeah, man, that's a good, that's a good hit right there.
that would be a fun show.
So, we'll have to see.
well, Jeff, man, thank you so much for being on the last 10%.
We thank you for your wisdom.
You dropped some great wisdom for our listeners and, we are
just gonna keep on remembering.
We gotta be the best at getting better.
Just like what you're saying, we're gonna do it through the debrief model.
So thanks again for being on last 10%.
Jeff "Bones" Bonner: I love it.
Dallas, thanks so much.