Speaker: 00:00:03

So welcome to the podcast to Ange Hi Ange.

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It's lovely to have you here.

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I thought it would be useful for everyone to get to know you a little bit.

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So do you want to just say a little bit about who you are and what it is that you do?

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Yes, absolutely.

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So my name is Ange Friesen.

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I am a brand strategist and a writer ah who is usually based in London, but at the moment

baseless.

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So we'll get into that a little bit more.

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I work mostly with product brands, but basically with anybody who has an idea for

something that they think is really cool and special that they want to bring into the

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world and turn into a product or a business.

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my background started as a copywriter and then I trained as a psychotherapist because I

thought I wanted to be a therapist.

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ah And then I got to the end of the training and realized I just wanted all the therapy

for myself and all of the kind of interesting insights as to how people work, which is

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totally applicable to brands.

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And so now I kind of think about my work as bridging those two, those two past selves.

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to really be able to dive deep with people to find the soul of a brand.

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For me, brand strategy is really about who we are at the deepest level, what is it that we

do, how do we share that with the world, which I think is uh some kinds of therapy is

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doing the same thing.

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And yeah, that's the overview of who I am and what I do.

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I like the way you describe brand being the soul of who we are.

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I don't think I've heard that before.

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That really kind of sits with me.

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I think about our identity a lot.

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So I'm a social scientist, so I'm thinking about our social identity and our individual

identity.

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How do people kind of show up with you with their identity?

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And how do you understand identity and then the link with soul?

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Well, because for me it's so interesting because I do not love personal brands.

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I don't love working with people who are just like, hey, I'm a coach.

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I love those people.

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one of my best friends is somebody who I started working with in that way.

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But I've realized that when it's a person, there's so many layers.

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are so many blocks that can get in the way.

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There's so much that's going on internally as a person that can...

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make it really hard to hone in on that thread of like one clear idea.

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And I really respect the people who can do that well.

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But for me, it's really working with the idea and the soul of the idea.

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And that's something I don't know if you've seen the TED talk.

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Oh, who the woman who wrote Eat, Pray, Love, Liz Gilbert, did a TED talk about creativity

and like ideas and how ideas pass from person to person.

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And I really have had that experience with working with people that ideas have, there's

something that wants to come into the world, that's how I see it.

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And it's a matter of tuning into that and getting past sort of our perceptions.

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You still have to get past those same things of like, I should be doing this.

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That's the biggest one is people have like all of these shoulds about how they think their

brand should show up and what they think they should be doing.

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it's like, so I use like,

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I'll do a meditation with somebody, if I have the kind of client and it's the kind of

relationship and the person who I think can explore that way, I'll do a meditation where

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it's like, let's connect with the soul of the idea and see what's there and get underneath

all of that sort of like top level thinking.

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And it's really, really fun.

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That's my favorite part of what I do.

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I could listen to you all day and I, you've started blogging on such that I really enjoy

your blogs.

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So, and I think the other thing that I really enjoy being connected to you is just the

storytelling that you do on Instagram and your Instagram account.

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think it sits with that idea of soul actually, because your Instagram account for me isn't

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a personally branded account is not in your face.

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But I was thinking last night around the questions I was going to ask you and it's like, I

feel like I know you quite well.

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We've met once physically, I think it's an award ceremony.

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And we've been in a community together at some point, but we've not spoken probably for

over a year or so.

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But I think I know you because...

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I think some of those things come through.

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when I think about you, I think about cats, think about travel, I think about Japan, I

think about stripes.

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Stripes are one of the things that comes up, and black and white stripes.

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And I think you have this kind of brand-like photo that I see a lot, and then you show up

like that as well.

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So there's quite a lot of congruence with what you talk about and who you are.

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em And I love the...

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probably, I don't know if spiritual's the right kind of word, but I like that woo side of

you as well.

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It's like really, I don't know, find it really calming.

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So yeah, I was just really excited to have you on the pod because your storytelling

recently has been so interesting to me.

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um From the perspective of psychologists who work with people around things like ritual

and routine, and you talk about with branding, people have those barriers and should

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haves.

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And I see people come into my coaching space and consultancy space with things that like

frameworks or rituals that are no longer serving them or working for them.

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So I wondered if you could just tell us a little bit about your recent swap of life

because you've swapped London with all of its local coffee shops for I think most recently

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a wander through a field with cows.

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Yes, and I've stopped wandering through the field because of the cows.

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It's shocking.

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So, my gosh, there's so much.

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the beginning of the story is about two and a half months ago, almost three months ago,

getting a phone call from my estate agents and saying, hey, you need to be out of your

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house in two months.

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um And we had been renting.

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a flat in London, so I'm Canadian.

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You might be able to tell from my accent that I am not, in fact, British.

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um But I, so I grew up in Canada and I moved to the UK about five or six years ago to be

with my girlfriend.

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And ah so we've lived in a beautiful flat.

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I was in love with my flat.

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Like I would say not on a daily basis, but on like a monthly basis, I would just look

around and be like, oh, I love our flat so much.

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I don't ever want to leave.

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And then I get this phone call and essentially the landlords were moving back.

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They had been living away for a few years and they were moving back into the flat.

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And so the first thing I did was I cried.

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And then the second thing I did was to start rethinking what it means and what has to

happen now because kind of the first instinct was, boy, we're gonna have to find a new

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flat.

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We're gonna have to find like.

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Prices in London are wild.

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ah I don't know if we'll find something we like as much.

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The neighborhood we want to live in, maybe we can't afford, like all of these things.

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And then I don't know exactly what shifted, because it was pretty quick.

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was within about the day, essentially, was thinking about, so Chimmy is my partner, and so

Chimmy and I had always talked about like, oh, it'd be great to do some slow travel.

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it would be great to spend some time in Spain.

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Oh, blah, blah.

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But when you're paying,

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an excessive amount of money for your living space and it's not yours, so you can't just

put it on Airbnb.

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All of those things are challenging.

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And I was like, okay, well, if you take the expensive flat out of the equation, what's

possible?

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And so pretty quickly I was like, okay, well, we can do those things.

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Let's go, let's turn this into an adventure.

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um We had had some, over the last year, Shimmy has...

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reduced her hours at work to have a better quality of living, but of course that has the

money that goes down as well.

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And with me being freelance, there's kind of ups and downs.

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So it was like, okay, maybe this is a chance to both rethink how we are operating

financially and turn it into something fun.

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So that's what we did.

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ah And so about three weeks ago, we set off on our first place.

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We didn't have a place lined up.

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So basically we put all of our stuff in storage.

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We had nothing set up.

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two weeks before the move.

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Chimmy goes into ChatGPT and gives it our parameters and says, we're like, I can't

remember even what she said, but basically like, she was like, we want somewhere like not

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too far from London, um like a cute, cute village.

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Like we wanted to try kind of a totally different lifestyle.

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And so ChatGPT suggested Tisbury.

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And so that's where we started looking.

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We went on Airbnb.

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We found a place that looked really cute.

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We didn't realize until after it was booked that it was the studio.

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So it's us in one room.

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So right now I'm in a tiny little guest cottage, not in Tisbury.

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It turned out that it was so 10 minutes away by car, which means about two hours away

walking.

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So we show up.

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We're just in the middle of nowhere.

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We don't have a car.

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So we've been trying cottage life for the last three weeks with, yes, cows and bugs and

expensive taxis to get anywhere.

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No hipster coffee shops, which you mentioned, which are my favorite thing of all time.

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I miss like bubble tea and hipster coffee shops are my two things that I miss.

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um But having a like feeling so happy just to be exploring in that new way.

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I like the way you kind of talked about that mindset shift of almost like a release.

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we, know, without this expensive property each month, what can we do?

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What do you think has been the biggest shift in your mind and body then since going to the

cottage?

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So it's interesting because it's not what I expected.

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both Chimmy and I are quite, we love experimenting.

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We love learning about ourselves.

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And so no matter what it's been like a glorious experiment and very quickly it became

clear like, we are not cut out for this lifestyle.

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Like, yeah, I can't remember what you said about the field with the cows.

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And I said,

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I've stopped going in the field because basically there's a walking path.

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in order to get to, there's one shop that's walking distance.

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It's about 25 minutes.

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There is one route that you can take like the highway or whatever you call a highway here,

like the A30, whatever the like, it's like lorries, it's like car, it's just like vom,

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vom, vom.

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We tried to take that to go to the bus one day and felt like we were gonna die the whole

time.

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And so we're like, never again.

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And then there's a walking path and we're like, great, we found the walking path.

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It takes you through some fields.

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It's marked as a footpath.

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And then we came home one of the second or third time we took this walk and there's just

like 30 cows.

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Like I called it a gang of cows because it genuinely was just this gang of cows in the

field that we need to walk through to get back to our house.

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You

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just like, what do we do?

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And so we went around them, but people meanwhile have told us like, no, you don't just

walk through the field with cows.

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And it's like, okay, so then what do we do?

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So basically I just sit at home and then we book a taxi for like 30 pounds return to go to

the village like once or twice a week.

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So I've learned like.

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I'm worse off living in the country.

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You'd think that I'd be like, I'm going for glorious walks.

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Like I'm surrounded by nature.

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My body feels so free.

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Like absolutely not.

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That is not the case.

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I'm sitting inside my little cottage and I'll go outside and like look out and I'll get

some sun on my face for a few minutes.

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But I miss parks.

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I miss my neighborhood walks.

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I feel more stuck.

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And I think that's because

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I've grown up in cities my whole life.

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I've grown up in at least medium to large cities.

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um And so I was curious.

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It was like, what will it be like?

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Maybe I will have that sense of like, oh, my whole nervous system will relax and I'll feel

free.

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That was what I expected.

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That's what I wanted and kind of expected to happen.

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And what I learned was no, no, in fact, like you really like cities.

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Like parks are nice.

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So you actually end up missing the things that you thought you'd enjoy moving away from.

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I think it's so interesting.

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spent, oh, I spent a decade or more living either in London or Manchester and where I live

now.

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I mean, if I look out my window, I can see cows.

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So I'm very much in the country.

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And I would walk through, I mean, I walked through a gang of

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not a herd, a gang of cows, oh last week with a friend but I did say to my friend I'm not

that keen on cows and then we avoided them on the way back so I think that's totally

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normal and rational to be thinking about that.

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In that case then how has the changing environment then because I mean you talked about

there expecting perhaps your nervous system to relax and to be at one with nature and all

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that kind of razzmatazz but how's this

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three week journey if you like impacted your creativity then.

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Well, it's interesting because I think it's made me realize like how important, because my

favorite moments have been when we've gone and done something.

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So essentially on the weekends, we've gone for our trips into Salisbury and we went to

Frome, which I don't know if you've been, but was beautiful.

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Like I fell in love with it because it's just like artsy and independent, but like cute

and like Cobbledy.

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And those have been the moments that ah

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where I feel like inspired and alive and happy.

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And it's similar because so what we do in London with friends are called adventure days

where we just pick a neighborhood and pick sort of a thing to do and just go off and

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explore something new.

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And so I think it's pretty much the same, just a slightly different setting, but those are

the things that really give me juice for the rest of things.

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I think if I wasn't spending so much time on TikTok, then maybe my creativity would be

like, because I think that boredom does something good for creativity when you can let

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yourself actually experience the boredom.

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But instead I have just like spent a lot of time scrolling.

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Why do you think that is?

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I think, so it's interesting because I watched a video that Chimmy sent me the other day

and was like, do you think this is accurate?

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And it was about ADHD.

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And so I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was like 36 or something a few years ago.

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And um it was like the idea that the ADHD brain needs to be operating at a hundred percent

at all times.

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Like, and so if you are like, I need different levels of stimulus.

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So like if I'm sitting on the couch and I'm doing data entry.

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let's say I'm doing something boring, then I can have the TV playing and I'm fine.

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Like I'm in a bubble where sort of I've got just like, I know what I'm doing.

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Whereas there was this one time that we were playing this game that involves sort of math

and adding things up and Shimi was trying to sing along and play the Hamilton soundtrack

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at like 10 out of 10 volume.

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And I was just like.

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Listen, I cannot deal with this.

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And she was surprised because I'll be like working and watching TV.

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So why can't I deal with a little bit of music?

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And so she played me this video.

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I'll see if I can send it to you.

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It was really interesting.

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But it was like, oh, I do recognize that is like, I kind of want my brain to be like

maximum stimulus at all times.

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And so I think I'm doing that.

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to myself despite knowing.

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So I did a 10 day, like the silent meditation 10 day retreat thing, the Pupashana

meditation training.

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And that was my only experience in life being truly bored and also being like really

inspired.

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And I know, so I know that when I do that to myself, it's valuable, but it's not

comfortable or fun.

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And so I avoid it.

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I think we have to um try hard at some stuff.

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And that idea in the video, I think, if I'm understanding it correctly, is the idea that

getting the brain to be cognitively busy is something that there's a certain threshold

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that we can work comfortably at versus uncomfortably, or where perhaps we're not able to

have that executive function working in the way that we would need it to.

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So if you're having to think,

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at meditation.

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think a lot of people who begin meditation, I always say I'm really bad at meditation, I'm

very poor at being able to shut my brain down from all the thoughts in my head.

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So I have to really think about it and I find meditation very tiring as a result.

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And I don't think that's an unusual concept for some people, whereas others will go into

meditation and find it quite easy to relax because perhaps that's the state they're in

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most of the time.

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It's really interesting, I think, how

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different people experience these kind of things that we believe to be like one particular

way of doing it.

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So creativity being one particular way or boredom being one way.

237

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And actually it looks all different to different people.

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I think one of the things that I really wanted to ask you about as well was your kind of

coffee routine because...

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Talk to me about, go back to your um flat set up in London and your routine.

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Certainly if it's just you and Chimmy together, what is your coffee routine like?

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Well, so I need to come back to something before I get there, which is as long as I've

lived with Chimmy, I have been clear that one of my priorities is a hipster coffee shop.

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And I say that and I'm just like, does the word, but like an independent good coffee shop

within ideally a five minute walk up to a 10 minute walk.

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but that has been on our list of non-negotiables when we're looking for flats, which is

not hard in London.

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There's independent coffee shops all over the place in most neighborhoods, but that for me

is a priority.

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And I don't know why it's a priority, but just the amount of joy that it actually gives

me, and I noticed it a while ago, because I'll go for a little walk, and sometimes I'll go

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to the faraway coffee.

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I like having a few.

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This sounds so ridiculous.

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But so and like I sit there and I'm having my little iced latte in the afternoon and I'm

just like this brings me a Surprising amount of joy and I don't know where it come from.

250

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I don't know why but it just like that moment brings me so much joy, so In our flat in

London.

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We had a cute hipster coffee shop around the block For a while.

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I was going every day like every morning.

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I would go and I would get my iced latte

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For Christmas two years ago, Chibi bought me a fancy espresso maker.

255

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And so then it was like, OK, yes, every day buying lattes at hipster coffee shop is a bit

much.

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Let's try doing it at home so that then really you get the pop of joy when you go once or

twice a week and you have even more joy.

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And so that was our coffee setup was I have my little

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whatever, I don't know what the brand is, but I have my nice milk and my nice coffee beans

and I make my iced latte and basically every day, I, again, with ADHD and like habits,

259

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like I find habits incredibly challenging, but when it's coffee, like that is probably the

one habit or routine that I have that is a non-negotiable.

260

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261

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Yeah, and then so here we've got like, we don't even have a kitchen in where we are.

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We've got a hot plate and I brought our little like, stovetop espresso maker.

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We don't have a freezer, so there's no ice for iced coffees.

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like it's...

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So anyway, that is my coffee life in London and then my coffee life here.

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completely different.

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the question I have to ask then on this chat GPT prompt, are you updating this prompt now

with some prompts around hipster cafe?

268

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Definitely.

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So we've definitely learned from this experience that unless we have a car and a freezer,

I would say that country life is not doable for us.

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Village life, think we could do.

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Like if we're somewhere where we're like close to the train station and there's some

shops, I think we could do it.

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But I don't think we will be.

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We've learned a lot about.

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what we need and how to make sure that we will actually have the accessible and the stuff

that we want from life accessible in our future places.

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So we're coming back to London on Friday to have Sit for Friends for about a month and

then go from there and we'll see where we end up.

276

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And then are you going to, so is the idea to do this for like a year then to, kind of be

almost like digital nomads a little bit or?

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I would say not a year.

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And the timeline is kind of like, basically it feels like we've flung ourselves into the

universe and we're just seeing what happens.

279

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There's no real plan, which can be challenging in and of itself.

280

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So we kind of had to, it took a little while for us to get on the same page about what we

wanted and what we expected.

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um And we identified two priorities.

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And basically we agreed that as we...

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make plans, we have to be meeting these two priorities.

284

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And on the one hand, that's saving some money and trying to live in a way where we're not

quite spending as much as we were before and having it be an adventure.

285

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And so when we make decisions about where we're going, then those are the two things that

we both need to because on my side, I want the adventure.

286

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also want to say like we've kind of a little bit differently balanced in that Chimmy would

save money and move to

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random flat in a random suburb and stay there for a year and just like save a bunch of

money.

288

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Whereas I'm like, no, I need this to be fun and like interesting and an adventure at the

same time.

289

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And we know that we probably want to be somewhere more long term by winter.

290

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I don't think winter is the most fun time to be traipsing around.

291

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So we also do have two cats who are now running around the flat.

292

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So yeah, traveling around with two cat carriers and a load of suitcases.

293

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also had like, so we have a lead on a potential apartment that would probably be full of

fall, but if that doesn't happen, I think we want to be settled somewhere by November or

294

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December.

295

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So right now it's July and we set off in June.

296

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So I guess what is that?

297

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Five or six months at least.

298

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

299

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So I'm imagining then, so you're in this studio and some beds and the food prep area is

quite tiny, you've got this hot stove, no freezer.

300

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How have you then made it a home from home?

301

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What things have you done that have brought you a bit of joy?

302

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I don't know if you saw this post that I did on Instagram because I was really excited

about my I bought a couple of containers from Amazon like Okay, so because one of the

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things that we when we packed up all of our stuff in our flat the number of boxes That I

had to pack into other boxes like because I just love like having stuff Organized nicely

304

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like the box for the sweaters and the box for the makeup.

305

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I just had an excessive number of plastic bins, like the nice IKEA ones with the swoopy

sides um that Shimmy thinks are ridiculous again.

306

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And so when we got here, I brought my skincare stuff and it was just sitting in this uh

cardboard box.

307

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I had a cardboard box and on the bedside table,

308

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had all of my skincare and random stuff that would go on my bedside table in this

cardboard box.

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And I would just look at it and be like...

310

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And so I went on Amazon and was like, I'm sorry, I just have to buy a couple of more

storage containers.

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And so I bought these like white storage containers with like the bamboo dividers so that

it's like the, you know, like the ones that has eight little slots so that like, okay, the

312

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moisturizers can go in here, the lip stuff can go in here, the tweezers can go in here.

313

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So that was my one...

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big 11 pound purchase to really like, and again, the amount of joy that I got opening that

up and being able to put my things and be like, they're so nicely organized.

315

00:27:02,212 --> 00:27:10,594

Yes, it feels like that was the one thing that I did um that really made me feel settled.

316

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And I was just like, okay, that's fine.

317

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I'm going to have to pack them up into my suitcase.

318

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I'm going to have to take them from place to place.

319

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But

320

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that's a grounding thing that makes me feel at home.

321

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That makes me feel at home and it makes me feel like set and happy.

322

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Yeah.

323

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What was the, there was this big thing a few years ago, wasn't it?

324

00:27:27,797 --> 00:27:31,148

Was it the, is it Marie, Marie Kondo?

325

00:27:31,148 --> 00:27:45,890

Like that kind of like packing craze and tidiness and, and, I'm just getting images of you

needing that kind of structure in your ADHD life and that being a grounding thing for you.

326

00:27:45,890 --> 00:27:49,622

Yeah, well, because it's interesting because so like, shimmy.

327

00:27:49,622 --> 00:27:54,480

So yes, I can end up with piles if I'm not careful.

328

00:27:54,480 --> 00:28:00,368

I do end up with piles no matter what there's going to be some piles of like books and

like clothes and things.

329

00:28:00,368 --> 00:28:09,052

But so yeah, I love even when I was a kid, I loved to like organize my room and rearrange

things and like get everything.

330

00:28:09,786 --> 00:28:14,358

properly organized because then it's gonna turn into chaos again and then I do it all over

again.

331

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Whereas Chimmy, so because, but that means I have to like pull everything out of the

closet.

332

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It's spread out all over the room.

333

00:28:20,456 --> 00:28:29,814

I put all of the things together and Chimmy comes in and she's just like overwhelmed and

stressed out and I'm just like, just go to the office, like go somewhere else for six

334

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hours because it's gonna be like this for a while.

335

00:28:32,646 --> 00:28:35,507

But then it's organized and fresh and lovely.

336

00:28:35,507 --> 00:28:38,488

Whereas Chimmy just throws everything into a closet.

337

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and it will be a mess in the closet.

338

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And then when she needs something, she'll pull it out.

339

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then so we're so completely different, but I need that feeling of organization.

340

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And I love the act of it.

341

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Like I find it just fun to organize things.

342

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Is there anything about a temporary kind of ritual or rhythm that you've kind of fallen

into while you've been in this place?

343

00:29:04,555 --> 00:29:08,118

Anything you think you might take with you that's something new for you?

344

00:29:17,764 --> 00:29:31,902

I think the only thing is sort of because what we did before we moved and as we were

deciding what was next is we sat down together and we decided like what are those

345

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priorities?

346

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And also we looked at like everything that we want in a home and how important are those

things?

347

00:29:40,506 --> 00:29:42,538

How do they stack up for each of us?

348

00:29:42,538 --> 00:29:47,108

um And our lists are similar but quite

349

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different, but so it's things like neighborhood cuteness of neighborhood walkability

proximity to transit closeness to our friends good groceries hipster coffee shops like all

350

00:30:01,474 --> 00:30:10,638

of the things that We have identified are important to us and then we rank them and we say

this is the most important short-term For this next move.

351

00:30:10,638 --> 00:30:15,298

This is the most important and then it's kind of reassessing

352

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And so really it's that check-in about what do we want next, what's important, how are we

making that decision?

353

00:30:22,511 --> 00:30:33,715

And I think that's something that has been really valuable and it has also helped us sort

of learn and shift direction rather than just going where the wind takes us.

354

00:30:33,715 --> 00:30:38,176

um And I think that I will probably keep.

355

00:30:40,910 --> 00:30:52,854

I think that idea of the ritual and routine being quite important and I suppose that not

being so obvious in that initial list, but it's really obvious now and especially through

356

00:30:52,854 --> 00:31:00,416

your storytelling that this, you know, the loss of the hipster coffee, I don't know we're

joking about it, but I mean, these things are important to us.

357

00:31:00,416 --> 00:31:03,797

We create our sense of home and place.

358

00:31:03,797 --> 00:31:05,118

We're placemakers, aren't we?

359

00:31:05,118 --> 00:31:06,548

And homemakers and...

360

00:31:07,591 --> 00:31:15,147

It doesn't matter how transient we are as individuals and how we move through life,

there's stuff that really holds us in the space that we're in.

361

00:31:15,147 --> 00:31:18,829

And I think that's just what I found so beautiful about your storytelling recently.

362

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It's like, it's just a real window into what it looks like when you move and do something

so different and actually what you think you might want to need.

363

00:31:27,866 --> 00:31:32,232

And then it was just something so simple as the, need my coffee shop.

364

00:31:32,232 --> 00:31:32,973

Yeah.

365

00:31:32,973 --> 00:31:37,797

Well, and it's interesting because I feel like some people thought we were going to be

miserable.

366

00:31:37,797 --> 00:31:43,701

And some of the stories I'm telling, I don't think it sounds like I'm miserable, but it

sounds like I might be miserable.

367

00:31:44,162 --> 00:31:46,564

And I've been not miserable whatsoever.

368

00:31:46,564 --> 00:31:49,666

Like the whole thing, I would not have done anything differently.

369

00:31:49,666 --> 00:31:55,471

I wouldn't have made a different choice about where to be, even knowing like, okay, we're

going to be stranded.

370

00:31:56,052 --> 00:31:59,594

Because the experience itself has been joyful.

371

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Like, and I think it is that idea of like,

372

00:32:01,730 --> 00:32:05,341

adventure and learning and what just what is this like?

373

00:32:05,341 --> 00:32:09,262

um It has been really fun.

374

00:32:09,262 --> 00:32:20,805

And also it felt like making that decision sort of like has shaken up the energy in our

lives in a way that I think is valuable and I think is rare.

375

00:32:20,805 --> 00:32:31,668

I would say that myself as a person I tend to get or maybe this isn't true anymore, but it

was definitely true when I was younger that I would end up stuck in situations.

376

00:32:31,674 --> 00:32:40,113

that I didn't really love and wasn't really happy in, but were just how it was.

377

00:32:40,474 --> 00:32:48,162

And I didn't really realize, like this was probably my biggest learning in life is like,

oh, I can make different decisions.

378

00:32:48,303 --> 00:32:53,238

I can decide what I want and take action to make those things happen.

379

00:32:55,246 --> 00:33:05,619

And I think that's a common, from speaking with other people in my life sometimes, I think

that's a common thing to believe or thing to get stuck in.

380

00:33:05,919 --> 00:33:13,192

And that's the biggest thing I wish I could shake people and say sometimes is like,

listen, you can make a different choice.

381

00:33:13,192 --> 00:33:14,942

You can do something.

382

00:33:15,042 --> 00:33:21,564

If there's something that doesn't feel right, even if it's scary.

383

00:33:21,836 --> 00:33:28,590

even if you have no idea where you're gonna end up and you're gonna be in an Airbnb in the

middle of the country for weeks at a time.

384

00:33:30,296 --> 00:33:32,670

There's just, I think there's value in that.

385

00:33:33,294 --> 00:33:36,556

I think it's really interesting how we can feel stuck.

386

00:33:36,757 --> 00:33:44,173

And last season, I was exploring this kind of space in between liminal spaces and how

interesting they are.

387

00:33:44,173 --> 00:33:46,785

They're real growth spaces in our lives.

388

00:33:47,346 --> 00:33:51,089

you know, people move for lots of different reasons.

389

00:33:51,089 --> 00:33:55,162

Sometimes people move for, they like moving, they don't like sitting still.

390

00:33:55,162 --> 00:34:02,818

They like the hit of dopamine from going from one place to another, or perhaps people move

because they want to change and they think,

391

00:34:02,818 --> 00:34:14,474

the physical move, I think we call it a geographical cure fallacy or something, because

actually just moving yourself from one geographical location to another doesn't change

392

00:34:14,474 --> 00:34:20,036

anything really, unless you're doing something to think about who you are inside.

393

00:34:20,036 --> 00:34:22,508

Because I disagree with that in some ways.

394

00:34:22,508 --> 00:34:29,493

I know that people do that sometimes, but I feel like I've done that and it has completely

changed my life.

395

00:34:29,493 --> 00:34:38,059

Not this move, but one of the biggest things I've done was when I was in my late 20s.

396

00:34:38,059 --> 00:34:44,864

So I grew up in Vancouver on the west coast of Canada and growing up it was, in my

opinion, the most beautiful city in the world.

397

00:34:44,864 --> 00:34:48,086

It's still one of the most beautiful cities in the world and I loved it.

398

00:34:48,610 --> 00:34:51,101

and I couldn't imagine living anywhere else.

399

00:34:51,101 --> 00:35:08,787

And then I hit my Saturn return years and like I decided, so graduated during the

recession, like couldn't find a job, decided to go do a master's and basically I had two

400

00:35:08,787 --> 00:35:09,447

choices.

401

00:35:09,447 --> 00:35:13,784

Like I could go, I applied to two universities, one in Vancouver.

402

00:35:13,784 --> 00:35:18,817

and one across the country in Halifax, which is as far away as I could get from Vancouver.

403

00:35:18,817 --> 00:35:34,616

And I remember praying not to get into UBC because I knew that if I did, I would stay

where I was and I would, and I had, like I was 28 and I was miserable basically because I

404

00:35:34,616 --> 00:35:35,376

had.

405

00:35:35,546 --> 00:35:46,055

grown up with a significant amount of trauma and had not really done the healing with that

and was still in that world where that was sort of, I was still steeped in that

406

00:35:46,055 --> 00:35:47,365

environment.

407

00:35:47,366 --> 00:35:50,268

And for me, I didn't get into UBC.

408

00:35:50,268 --> 00:35:53,130

So I had to go move across the country.

409

00:35:53,291 --> 00:35:56,774

And that move was like the beginning of my life as an adult.

410

00:35:56,774 --> 00:36:04,790

And for me, it's that specific scenario too, is like shifting out of a place where you

kind of,

411

00:36:06,690 --> 00:36:15,944

are stuck in an energy or an environment that isn't healthy and getting out of that and

into something else, that changed my life completely.

412

00:36:16,304 --> 00:36:24,707

And I know exactly what you're talking about, about the people who are constantly trying

to move because they think they'll leave themselves behind.

413

00:36:24,707 --> 00:36:27,288

In my case, I didn't need to leave myself behind.

414

00:36:27,288 --> 00:36:36,852

I needed to leave some of the people and the situations that I was stuck in so that I

could learn who I was in a different environment.

415

00:36:37,166 --> 00:36:38,446

that different context.

416

00:36:38,446 --> 00:36:45,706

think our relationship with place and attachment is so layered and complex.

417

00:36:45,706 --> 00:36:56,506

I mean, you're, you know, trained psychotherapist and I imagine, I mean, as a

psychologist, kind of, think about attachment in a different way as a psychotherapist

418

00:36:56,506 --> 00:37:02,990

would I imagine, but that whole attachment piece is so integral to our early years and

419

00:37:02,990 --> 00:37:06,450

being able to form and create those really stable relationships.

420

00:37:06,450 --> 00:37:14,096

And I suppose what we're really talking about here is that positive fracturing of it to

enable to move forward and get that joy.

421

00:37:14,096 --> 00:37:15,016

Mmm.

422

00:37:17,004 --> 00:37:26,277

What would a psychotherapist say about, I suppose about your, about those kind of big

scale moves?

423

00:37:26,277 --> 00:37:29,752

what, tell me about the move from Canada to the UK.

424

00:37:29,752 --> 00:37:31,444

What was it that prompted that?

425

00:37:31,618 --> 00:37:39,374

well, that was also interesting because so I had lived in Toronto for almost 10 years.

426

00:37:39,374 --> 00:37:44,198

So after I finished my masters, I moved to Toronto with like $300 in my bank account.

427

00:37:44,198 --> 00:37:50,033

A friend of mine let her let me come live in her apartment with her until I found a job.

428

00:37:50,033 --> 00:37:57,499

And so I had been there for about 10 years and loved Toronto a lot.

429

00:37:57,499 --> 00:37:58,520

I still love Toronto.

430

00:37:58,520 --> 00:37:59,811

It's one of my favorite cities.

431

00:37:59,811 --> 00:38:01,472

ah But

432

00:38:01,486 --> 00:38:07,167

just felt this like I just felt that there was I was feeling this

433

00:38:08,942 --> 00:38:24,207

I don't know if it's a yearning for something more or different or a knowing that there

was something different coming because I had no reason to know what was gonna happen.

434

00:38:24,207 --> 00:38:33,876

I mean, aside from like, let's say some kind of intuition, I don't know what's going on,

but I just knew that I wanted to try something.

435

00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:42,329

knew and I had thought about moving to Europe in some way, like getting some kind of visa,

but there was nothing that was really a good fit, like the kinds of visa that were

436

00:38:42,329 --> 00:38:42,969

available.

437

00:38:42,969 --> 00:38:50,637

um And then I met my girlfriend, so Chibi, who we'll all know by now.

438

00:38:50,637 --> 00:38:55,903

um I met her in San Francisco at conference and we fell in love very quickly.

439

00:38:55,903 --> 00:38:57,544

440

00:38:57,858 --> 00:39:08,011

we basically we started talking that weekend and then we spent like 16 hours a day on

WhatsApp or on the phone like for months until I came to visit her in the UK and because I

441

00:39:08,011 --> 00:39:19,994

was freelance I was able to just come for six weeks so it was like hey I'm coming to visit

and I'll go back when I go back and then she would come so we were kind of long distance

442

00:39:19,994 --> 00:39:25,710

for about nine months and then she tried to move to Canada.

443

00:39:25,710 --> 00:39:28,712

but the visa situation didn't work out.

444

00:39:28,712 --> 00:39:32,324

so by then, so I'm a commitment shy Aquarius.

445

00:39:32,324 --> 00:39:35,375

Like I, she was all in.

446

00:39:35,375 --> 00:39:37,927

She was like, yep, like let's get married.

447

00:39:37,927 --> 00:39:40,344

I'm, and I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

448

00:39:40,344 --> 00:39:44,791

Like you can move to Canada, but you have to get your own apartment even though we're

going to spend every night together.

449

00:39:44,791 --> 00:39:54,376

Like, but by the time, it was about a year and a half later that I decided to move to the

UK because um

450

00:39:55,054 --> 00:40:00,390

because she could get a better job in the UK and just life seemed like it would make more

sense.

451

00:40:00,390 --> 00:40:11,702

ah And so I was comfortable enough, like we had gone through enough that I felt like,

okay, I'm not doing, like, I'm not gonna move across the world and be with someone who

452

00:40:11,702 --> 00:40:16,107

turns out to be like a terrible human and end up alone.

453

00:40:16,107 --> 00:40:17,686

454

00:40:17,686 --> 00:40:22,301

But yeah, I found it just really interesting that I kind of had this sense, like I knew I

had talked about it.

455

00:40:22,301 --> 00:40:31,240

One of the reasons I didn't become a psychotherapist is because I sort of knew that the

amount of hours that I would have to go do and registration, like I just kind of knew I

456

00:40:31,240 --> 00:40:35,093

didn't want to be in Toronto for much longer.

457

00:40:35,594 --> 00:40:37,986

And then it happened.

458

00:40:39,820 --> 00:40:41,472

you move to the UK.

459

00:40:41,930 --> 00:40:43,049

And here we are.

460

00:40:43,049 --> 00:40:43,509

Yeah.

461

00:40:43,509 --> 00:40:49,242

And that I feel like is the thing that changed for me was being in a relationship with

somebody really loving.

462

00:40:49,242 --> 00:40:53,075

it's like, I've never been homesick ever.

463

00:40:53,075 --> 00:40:54,816

I don't really understand.

464

00:40:54,816 --> 00:41:00,299

And I don't know if it's that kind of like ADHD, like when they talk about what you don't

really miss people necessarily.

465

00:41:00,299 --> 00:41:06,393

like there's this thing where like, exactly like I love my family.

466

00:41:06,393 --> 00:41:07,373

I love my friends.

467

00:41:07,373 --> 00:41:08,846

I miss them.

468

00:41:08,846 --> 00:41:15,148

But day to day, just am like, yep, it feels like you picked me up and put me in a new

place and I am my home.

469

00:41:15,270 --> 00:41:16,191

Like.

470

00:41:20,408 --> 00:41:28,351

And the big change was moving in with somebody and starting a life with somebody and

having my family for the first time that I was creating.

471

00:41:28,351 --> 00:41:29,863

Yeah.

472

00:41:30,517 --> 00:41:42,478

I think from the outside looking in and I mean we all see obviously your created view of

the world and we all put our own curated views out there but from the outside looking in

473

00:41:42,478 --> 00:41:52,718

there's this idea that that relationship that you have and the home that you've created

and the rituals it's all it all brings joy and that that joy thread kind of runs all the

474

00:41:52,718 --> 00:41:58,862

way through everything that you're doing and I was kind of interested I think to hear a

little bit about how

475

00:41:58,862 --> 00:42:05,882

I suppose how your work then is looking for soul and I've not really thought about how

soul and joy are connected before.

476

00:42:05,882 --> 00:42:09,502

So that's something really intriguing to think about, I think.

477

00:42:09,604 --> 00:42:18,969

Well, and I think a lot of what I've talked about today, kind of like there's these, I've

had this huge shift that I have gone through in my life.

478

00:42:18,969 --> 00:42:23,512

And I've talked about sort of there's that first part of moving from Vancouver to Halifax.

479

00:42:23,512 --> 00:42:26,693

And then, so my career before now, I was a librarian.

480

00:42:26,693 --> 00:42:34,618

um And I worked in libraries, which I loved, but always felt like it was not my, like, I

was not a librarian.

481

00:42:34,618 --> 00:42:37,369

Like I worked with people who loved their job and were great at it.

482

00:42:37,369 --> 00:42:39,182

And you could tell that that was the...

483

00:42:39,182 --> 00:42:40,853

like where they belonged.

484

00:42:40,853 --> 00:42:46,832

And I felt kind of like an outsider and it was like, this is fun, but I'm doing it because

I need a job.

485

00:42:46,832 --> 00:42:51,259

I wasn't doing it because it was something that like I felt profoundly passionate about.

486

00:42:51,259 --> 00:43:00,804

And so I burnt out, which is I think what happens a lot when you're doing something that

you don't actually love or get fulfilled by.

487

00:43:00,804 --> 00:43:08,784

um And so for me, that was the other big shift was making that decision to like,

488

00:43:08,784 --> 00:43:10,844

Basically, I didn't feel like I had a choice.

489

00:43:10,844 --> 00:43:12,124

I burnt out.

490

00:43:12,124 --> 00:43:13,744

I couldn't ever go back.

491

00:43:13,744 --> 00:43:15,424

And so I had to try something new.

492

00:43:15,424 --> 00:43:21,804

And there were no jobs in the world that I, like I'd look at job boards and be like, no,

none of these look appealing at all.

493

00:43:21,804 --> 00:43:24,584

And so it was like, okay, I just have to try being freelance.

494

00:43:24,764 --> 00:43:30,864

And that's when I discovered joy in work and joy in my life.

495

00:43:30,864 --> 00:43:36,804

And again, it's like, oh, I can do work that I'm great at that.

496

00:43:37,858 --> 00:43:43,210

is something the world needs that helps to create really cool things in the world.

497

00:43:43,310 --> 00:43:55,516

I do get a lot of joy from my life, but it's something that I feel like, I've always been

a happy, optimistic person, even when I was a really sad, depressed person.

498

00:43:55,516 --> 00:43:59,237

I don't know how those two things go together, but for me, somehow they do.

499

00:43:59,237 --> 00:44:06,690

And now I get to be a happy, optimistic person who experiences a lot of joy in the way,

the things that I've.

500

00:44:07,598 --> 00:44:12,043

both been able to create and the things that have found their way into my life.

501

00:44:12,043 --> 00:44:14,198

And I feel very fortunate.

502

00:44:15,628 --> 00:44:21,672

One of the reasons I was doing this season on Joy was that was my word for the year.

503

00:44:21,672 --> 00:44:23,824

So I this thing.

504

00:44:23,824 --> 00:44:28,286

And it's the first year that I've actually picked a word and stuck with it.

505

00:44:28,607 --> 00:44:34,391

But there was a lot of things for me that started to make sense towards the end of last

year.

506

00:44:34,391 --> 00:44:36,102

I nearly quit my PhD.

507

00:44:36,102 --> 00:44:37,613

I wasn't enjoying it.

508

00:44:37,613 --> 00:44:43,307

uh I was working on a contract which wasn't freelance.

509

00:44:43,307 --> 00:44:45,272

So I felt like an employee.

510

00:44:45,272 --> 00:44:48,404

didn't like it.

511

00:44:48,885 --> 00:44:50,786

Yeah.

512

00:44:50,887 --> 00:44:58,893

And, you know, the, were just other things where I'd lost my love of running and running

was such a huge part of my identity.

513

00:44:58,893 --> 00:45:06,579

So I'd set up this idea that I'm going to seek joy this year through running through my

work and through my study.

514

00:45:06,940 --> 00:45:12,102

And it's been like this kind of gentle re grounding and return.

515

00:45:12,102 --> 00:45:14,446

I call it a bit of a return to.

516

00:45:14,654 --> 00:45:23,759

understanding where I find joy and how I find joy and I think it's quite an active thing

to be joyful.

517

00:45:23,759 --> 00:45:28,901

It's not something that just lands in your lap, I think you have to go and seek out and

find it.

518

00:45:29,181 --> 00:45:37,015

So I'm kind of, I think I'm really interested in these conversations we're to have in this

season, it's just to explore what joy looks like for different people and I really

519

00:45:37,015 --> 00:45:39,226

appreciate your perspectives today.

520

00:45:39,374 --> 00:45:41,437

I've really just such a noisy person.

521

00:45:41,437 --> 00:45:45,574

I've really enjoyed just understanding how your moves go and where you're going next.

522

00:45:45,574 --> 00:45:48,788

But yeah, especially in that.

523

00:45:49,096 --> 00:45:50,818

So for you, what have you learned?

524

00:45:50,818 --> 00:45:55,601

So we're like half the year, a little more than half the year in.

525

00:45:56,182 --> 00:45:58,594

What have you learned about finding that joy?

526

00:45:58,853 --> 00:46:02,194

the running was the, the most profound thing.

527

00:46:02,194 --> 00:46:09,897

m I think for me, I tied a lot of the running in with status around, I'd done ultras

marathons before.

528

00:46:09,897 --> 00:46:14,559

um I definitely felt like I was beating myself up because I couldn't run how I used to

run.

529

00:46:14,559 --> 00:46:16,840

I'd had an injury a few years ago.

530

00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:22,602

um And then I started peeling back the layers and go, but what was it?

531

00:46:22,720 --> 00:46:31,498

went and I started looking at photos and Facebook and the things that I was posting, the

things I was saying during the time when I was really enjoying my training.

532

00:46:31,799 --> 00:46:35,212

And it wasn't the running, it was just all the social bit.

533

00:46:35,212 --> 00:46:41,330

was the sending messages to my friends when I'm out running and, my God, I'm dying, I hate

this, why am I running?

534

00:46:41,330 --> 00:46:43,179

And, you know, just having the social bit.

535

00:46:43,179 --> 00:46:48,814

So this year what I've done is I've just involved people in my running journey and I've

just...

536

00:46:48,814 --> 00:46:51,494

Like I'll get on a treadmill and send someone a little silly message.

537

00:46:51,494 --> 00:46:52,833

Oh, I'm getting on to do a run.

538

00:46:52,833 --> 00:46:55,914

And, and I think I, that was the joy.

539

00:46:55,914 --> 00:46:57,794

It was just such a social thing for me.

540

00:46:57,794 --> 00:47:01,154

And then running had become quite insular over lockdown.

541

00:47:01,534 --> 00:47:04,414

Um, and I never really went back to doing it in a social way.

542

00:47:04,414 --> 00:47:06,374

So that's what I've learned there.

543

00:47:06,734 --> 00:47:10,734

With the PhD, there were a couple of things.

544

00:47:10,734 --> 00:47:16,334

think one of them was I was trying to sprint to the end of it and I'm doing it part time.

545

00:47:16,334 --> 00:47:18,732

I'm going to be doing this for like till 2031.

546

00:47:18,732 --> 00:47:28,646

And I trying to sprint to the end and not taking time to just sit with the process of it

and sit with the uncomfortableness of it.

547

00:47:28,646 --> 00:47:29,816

I like to be structured.

548

00:47:29,816 --> 00:47:30,954

I like to know what I'm doing.

549

00:47:30,954 --> 00:47:33,318

I like to feel that I know what I know.

550

00:47:33,318 --> 00:47:41,061

And there's just a huge amount you don't know when you start your PhD and there's a huge

amount you're going to change and have to discover.

551

00:47:41,061 --> 00:47:46,733

And I think I just wasn't, I hadn't allowed myself to go into a vulnerable space to enjoy

that.

552

00:47:46,733 --> 00:47:48,670

And I've had to really

553

00:47:48,670 --> 00:48:01,846

surrender a little bit and just go okay this is going to be hard it's going to be messy

it's just going to and i'm enjoying it a lot more now and then yeah i'm back freelance

554

00:48:01,846 --> 00:48:14,882

again which is just and it's literally been a very short space of time but the energy and

creativity and it was interesting you're saying right at the beginning that idea of

555

00:48:15,769 --> 00:48:24,670

creativity being something that's produced and created by people rather than it being a

brand and I'm having a conversation with a couple of people at the moment about creating

556

00:48:24,670 --> 00:48:35,390

something that won't be me as a brand for example it's something that needs to happen it's

something that somebody mentioned to me a few years ago and I'm talking yesterday when

557

00:48:35,390 --> 00:48:37,902

remember you said this thing and I

558

00:48:37,902 --> 00:48:40,442

really want to pursue that and do want to pursue it with me?

559

00:48:40,442 --> 00:48:51,222

And like yeah and so I think these idea things are like coming to fruition because there's

space to do it all of a sudden I'm not feeling burnt out by some organization's agenda

560

00:48:51,222 --> 00:48:53,742

that I don't really believe in or whatever.

561

00:48:53,782 --> 00:48:59,242

So yeah I think that joy thing, I think it had to start with the running.

562

00:48:59,242 --> 00:49:03,756

I thought if I can't unravel what it is I've lost about the joy of running.

563

00:49:03,756 --> 00:49:08,189

I'll not understand it in other aspects of my life and it taught me so much.

564

00:49:08,690 --> 00:49:12,052

I think it'll be interesting to see where I go for the rest of the year with it.

565

00:49:12,052 --> 00:49:16,255

I've just entered a big competition for next year with my friend.

566

00:49:16,255 --> 00:49:25,202

So there's a lot of training coming up, but yeah, even smiling about it, talking about it,

because I'm really excited about the journey we're going to, for me, it's not about doing

567

00:49:25,202 --> 00:49:25,392

it.

568

00:49:25,392 --> 00:49:27,744

It's everything getting up to it.

569

00:49:27,744 --> 00:49:30,976

And I think that's what I'd lost in that joy journey.

570

00:49:31,248 --> 00:49:48,073

it's interesting because the thing that comes up for me when you talk about like joy and

losing joy is not so much working for like aiming for joy, but the things that get in the

571

00:49:48,073 --> 00:49:49,833

way of joy.

572

00:49:50,294 --> 00:49:57,776

And for me, I feel like that's stress and anxiety usually.

573

00:49:58,476 --> 00:50:05,722

in my case, related to other people's expectations or to like trying to do things a

certain way.

574

00:50:05,722 --> 00:50:14,049

And I guess it comes back to the initial season one and imposter phenomenon and kind of

like how that shows up for me.

575

00:50:14,049 --> 00:50:27,960

But I find that when I try to, like if I'm working with a new client and I'm trying to

like fit myself into their expectations, rather than just

576

00:50:28,762 --> 00:50:40,680

kind of relaxing into my own confidence and the way that I work and the things that are

important to me, like really making that effort to come back to wait, what are my

577

00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:41,801

priorities?

578

00:50:41,801 --> 00:50:43,022

What are my values?

579

00:50:43,022 --> 00:50:44,773

What's important to me and how I work?

580

00:50:44,773 --> 00:50:45,434

What's important?

581

00:50:45,434 --> 00:50:51,388

Like, and it's all these same things that you're talking about with kind of work that you

end up in that's like not a good fit.

582

00:50:51,388 --> 00:50:57,172

But those are the things that for me, it feels like a...

583

00:50:57,424 --> 00:51:05,544

layer on top of joy and that when I take those things out the joy can flow a lot more

easily.

584

00:51:06,544 --> 00:51:07,496

Yeah.

585

00:51:07,682 --> 00:51:12,242

it kind of takes out the heat in the joy in what you want.

586

00:51:12,442 --> 00:51:13,762

It's really interesting, isn't it?

587

00:51:13,762 --> 00:51:18,022

I think it's something that we continually discover about ourselves as well.

588

00:51:18,022 --> 00:51:28,742

I think the things that brought me joy when I was 20 and 30 and 40 are different to what I

find joy in now, or how I seek joy and how I can take joy.

589

00:51:29,164 --> 00:51:37,717

I think your example of moving and having a bit of a list of the things that you thought

you'd need to be, you know, happy and content.

590

00:51:37,717 --> 00:51:39,047

And yes, you've been happy.

591

00:51:39,047 --> 00:51:50,560

You've still enjoyed the uh process, but there was also layers on there of things that

you're like, so yes, this will also enjoy get being made at a coffee shop or uh whatever.

592

00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:56,558

And I think it's so interesting to me about how these things just shift all the time.

593

00:51:56,558 --> 00:52:02,778

you know, our sense of place belonging and where we sit, our attachments, it's all moving.

594

00:52:02,778 --> 00:52:05,758

So you can think, you know, yourself completely inside out.

595

00:52:05,758 --> 00:52:09,198

And then like the next year, no, you're back square one again.

596

00:52:09,198 --> 00:52:12,218

like, you're gonna have to do that work and understand where you're going again.

597

00:52:16,290 --> 00:52:28,279

I have to ask, there's a curtain behind you and as I'm looking at it, it feels like a

really festive, it looks like little Santas or something upside down, but it isn't, it?

598

00:52:28,279 --> 00:52:29,740

I can't believe it.

599

00:52:30,061 --> 00:52:31,893

Oh, I can see now, yeah.

600

00:52:31,893 --> 00:52:37,875

I think outside, I don't know if you can see the, yeah, the fields, the books.

601

00:52:37,875 --> 00:52:39,526

Yeah, there's antlers.

602

00:52:39,526 --> 00:52:40,646

Yeah, there's some kind of hunter.

603

00:52:40,646 --> 00:52:41,157

I don't know.

604

00:52:41,157 --> 00:52:49,366

ah Yeah, no, not Christmas curtains.

605

00:52:49,366 --> 00:52:51,052

That'd be really weird.

606

00:52:51,693 --> 00:52:56,036

Thank you so much for joining me today for the podcast.

607

00:52:56,036 --> 00:52:58,818

This season is just exploring joy.

608

00:52:58,818 --> 00:53:09,580

And it's been really interesting to chat to you about joy in change and move, and also

routine and what we can learn about our routines and...

609

00:53:09,580 --> 00:53:14,014

habits, I suppose, when we move from one space to another and how that moves on.

610

00:53:14,455 --> 00:53:15,698

thank you so much for having me.

611

00:53:15,698 --> 00:53:21,974

It's been a joyful conversation and I look forward to hearing what else you explore.

612

00:53:22,902 --> 00:53:27,755

If people want to get in touch with you, what is the best way to get in touch with you?

613

00:53:27,755 --> 00:53:29,080

What's your website name?

614

00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:44,546

Yeah, so I have um beautifuluseful.co, and then I'm on Instagram and pretty much

everywhere else at at angfriesen, A-N-G-E-F-R-I-E-S-E-N, and that's where you'll find me.

615

00:53:44,930 --> 00:53:49,880

I'll add all of this into the podcast links so people can connect with you.

616

00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:51,322

Thank you very much.

617

00:53:51,620 --> 00:53:52,627

Thank you.