I'm not here to set the Anabaptist view

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of the sacraments over

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and against everyone else,

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as if the 16th century

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finally solved the riddle.

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All right?

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I don't think the early Anabaptists

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themselves spoke that way,

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and I don't think neither

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should we.

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So, Dean, you've done a lot of teaching

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and reading and research

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and writing about historical

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theology and church history and those

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types of things, and

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we're going to get into that.

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But we did another episode a while ago

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about Reformation

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debates, and there's a particular

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thing that many, many people,

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Protestants, Catholics,

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Anabaptists, others, have bled

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and died for because of disagreements

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over some of these

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things, and that's the topic

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of the sacraments.

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So we want to do a podcast on that.

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This is a very big topic and very

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complicated that has had an enormous

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amount of theological

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ink spilled and blood spilled over

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disagreements about the sacraments.

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So let's leap right into that.

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We're going to go right into the deep end

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of the pool, so to

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speak, and tear into this

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topic.

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Why don't you start us

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off setting the stage?

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What is the sacraments?

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Why are we using this word?

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There's a lot of people, I think, in the

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Anabaptist world,

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especially, that would be concerned

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or maybe they wouldn't.

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They'd be skeptical, I guess you could

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say, of like, what is this terminology?

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And lay some groundwork for this topic.

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Awesome.

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I've got some slides on this.

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That's a little out of

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my order, but that's fine.

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Let's do this.

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Let's be able to break through that.

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Sure.

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Feel free.

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So yeah, the term sacraments

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scares a lot of Anabaptists.

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It scares a lot of people.

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And it shouldn't.

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It's a great word.

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As you know, my testimony coming out of

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the army and

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discovering the early church that

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I spent 10 years under, right when I came

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in with the army, with

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David Bercot and studying

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the early church, and we really embraced

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this rich sacramental

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language of the early

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Christians. Coming into the Anabaptists, it's a topic

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that's very controversial.

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And I have noticed that a lot of times

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it's just not said correctly.

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When you go then, as many other things,

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as you start reading

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the sources and you read

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the things, you realize, okay, that's not

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really presented

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correctly, that there's a

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deeper and a richer meaning

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there than we're representing.

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And so the word sacrament itself is one.

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I have a slide here.

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So just the different terms that people

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use for the sacraments.

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Yes, please.

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Okay.

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So sacraments.

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It comes actually from a Latin word that

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has more of an

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interesting word that's kind of

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lost sometimes in the East.

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It's like a pledge.

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It's used typically more now in the

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Eastern sense of a

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mystery, which we get the Holy

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Mysteries from the Greek Orthodox or the

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Greek position and

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just calling it a mystery.

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And the sacramentum was

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the Latin equivalent of that.

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But yet if you read the early church,

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particularly the Latin writers like

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Tertullian and such,

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they bring out this side of an oath of

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allegiance or a pledge.

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And so you see that in coming out in even

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things like at their baptism, and we look

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at the creeds that come out and that kind

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of a thing and how

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they make, they're making

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this pledge closer the way

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maybe we would imagine a marriage.

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So you're saying Tertullian.

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Right.

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What era in history is this?

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We're talking about 200, 220.

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Oh, okay.

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So this is really

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early, really early history.

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This is over a thousand years before the

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Anabaptists even show up.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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The early church.

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Sorry.

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No, no, you're good.

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So with that, you know, it's a, so

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sacraments comes from that

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idea, but it carries both in

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the ancient Latin and the ancient

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writers, this more idea

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of pledge and sacred oath,

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but also a mystery.

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And it's used that way typically.

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Holy mysteries is, as again, just

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Mysterium, the idea.

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And I like that one a lot because it's

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not quite as defined in

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many of the Eastern way

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of thinking this and also many of the

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early Christian writers.

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I think that could be overstated, but

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still, I think that that's a good word.

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Some just call it a command.

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And this is where we get to the next word

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would be ordinance and

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a lot of our statements

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of faith, particularly those that were

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written after

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fundamentalism that's affected us in

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the 1920s and such.

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You really get into more emphasis on

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calling these

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ordinances, which comes to the idea

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of something that was ordained.

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It was stated, you should do this.

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The tendency with that

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word, it's a good word.

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I still love it, use it.

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Is that it tends to

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stress the command side of it.

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And so it comes out a little bit

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legalistic sometimes where

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we're doing something because

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it's commanded.

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And that's all.

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You could be like, there's

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nothing else that's happening.

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We're merely doing this

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because it's commanded.

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And that can come out of the

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baggage of using that word.

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They all have baggages by themselves.

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Traditions, handing down

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the traditions could be used.

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And some people use that.

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It's certainly biblical language.

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A memorial is a big one.

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Oh, right.

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Okay.

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I've heard this one.

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Yeah, memorial.

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So what's a memorial?

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Do this in memory.

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The scriptures very clearly state .

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And you hear the early church holding on

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to both a very much of

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a real presence side of

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this and a memorial side of this.

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And you'll see that and I'll show you

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some passages for that.

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A memorial is can be used.

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And the next one I would say, and there's

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probably many others, but a rite.

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And R-I-T-E, you know, and this is more

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like a something closer

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to a sacrament, a formal

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prescribed thing that we do.

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And those are different ways that we even

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use this term, you know, sacraments.

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I like sacraments.

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I don't mind ordinance, particularly

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within the Anabaptist

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people that I have placed myself,

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which I am very happy to be there.

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But those are terms that I like.

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I like the general concept of mysteries.

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So why not use the term ordinance?

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Like when you're saying sacraments here,

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are you saying

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basically different term for the

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same thing?

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Yeah, walk me through that because I'm

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sure at least all our

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Mennonite listeners are going

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to say, "Oh, we're a lot more comfortable

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with hearing ordinance."

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Actually, earlier as I was prepping for

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this, I grabbed a

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Doctrines of the Bible, right?

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You were talking about how the

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fundamentals, you know, in

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the about 100 years ago and the

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writing a lot of this stuff and Daniel

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Kauffman uses a lot of ordinance language.

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He has a seven ordinance

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that he lists out and so forth.

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That's a much more comfortable and

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familiar, I'm going to

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guess, for many of our...

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I'm not going to say all, but for many of

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our Mennonite listeners, talk to me about that.

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Are those... are you

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saying they're the same thing?

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Are they different?

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Give me some nuance.

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It's a good question.

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You know, there's a lot of nuance in all

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those, in all the

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vocabulary, I think has baggage

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attached to it.

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So you know, it's funny, I will use it in

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different ways

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depending on what I'm teaching

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on.

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But it's...

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I like sacraments, but I understand, and

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you're going to see during

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this lecture, I understand

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the caution because what the Greek

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Orthodox and Roman Catholics

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have done to the sacraments

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using this term and misunderstanding the

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real presence of Christ

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within the community is

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very bad.

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And so with that baggage, I think that I

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can understand a

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caution who a brother says,

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you know, it's just so loaded with all

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this baggage that came

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along with that term.

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I don't like using it.

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So here's an example that immediately

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comes to mind, and it

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can be way off, right?

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But I hear something like sacraments, I'm

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thinking, "Oh, the Catholic church or one

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of the Orthodox churches," and they're

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saying, you know,

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"Transubstantiation," and all of

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this, and I'm over here thinking, "Well,

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yeah, but my ancestors

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were burned at the stake

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for not agreeing with that,

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therefore, sacraments bad."

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Right. Right?

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Like that would be not much of a logical

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leap, I'm going to guess, for listeners.

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It's not, and I think it's fair.

283

00:08:10,907 --> 00:08:12,909

Because in the...

284

00:08:12,909 --> 00:08:13,659

You know, there's

285

00:08:13,659 --> 00:08:14,952

levels that you look at this.

286

00:08:14,952 --> 00:08:18,164

In the geeky scholarly ways to decipher

287

00:08:18,164 --> 00:08:19,957

what is happening and all

288

00:08:19,957 --> 00:08:21,042

that, there's one level,

289

00:08:21,042 --> 00:08:21,417

okay?

290

00:08:22,043 --> 00:08:23,586

And you could say, "Okay, I could kind of

291

00:08:23,586 --> 00:08:24,879

follow and track what

292

00:08:24,879 --> 00:08:26,797

these Roman Catholic

293

00:08:26,964 --> 00:08:28,841

apologists are saying or whatever, and I

294

00:08:28,841 --> 00:08:29,967

can track with that or whatever."

295

00:08:30,301 --> 00:08:30,760

And then there's the

296

00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:32,511

reality of what it's experienced.

297

00:08:33,137 --> 00:08:34,805

And this is big to the Anabaptists, and

298

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I'm going to get into

299

00:08:35,514 --> 00:08:36,724

that when I explain that,

300

00:08:37,016 --> 00:08:38,267

is that it's not the same.

301

00:08:39,101 --> 00:08:39,560

Ooh, yeah.

302

00:08:39,685 --> 00:08:41,520

And again, we, all our Catholic and

303

00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:42,939

Orthodox listeners, you

304

00:08:42,939 --> 00:08:43,564

know, because we have some

305

00:08:43,564 --> 00:08:44,732

of those, are probably going to be like,

306

00:08:44,732 --> 00:08:45,775

"Oh my goodness, this

307

00:08:45,775 --> 00:08:46,651

is..." you know, right?

308

00:08:46,943 --> 00:08:48,819

And it just shows how controversial this

309

00:08:48,819 --> 00:08:49,362

is, because they're

310

00:08:49,362 --> 00:08:50,738

going to very much disagree

311

00:08:50,738 --> 00:08:52,073

with you, and I'm sure the comments down

312

00:08:52,073 --> 00:08:52,865

below on this are going

313

00:08:52,865 --> 00:08:53,699

to be really interesting.

314

00:08:54,033 --> 00:08:54,200

Yeah.

315

00:08:54,367 --> 00:08:55,952

And yes, please do put comments down there,

316

00:08:55,952 --> 00:08:56,786

because we do read those,

317

00:08:56,786 --> 00:08:58,496

and actually, this episode

318

00:08:58,538 --> 00:09:01,624

on this topic is because we got so many

319

00:09:01,624 --> 00:09:02,541

comments from so many

320

00:09:02,541 --> 00:09:03,709

different people with so many

321

00:09:03,709 --> 00:09:05,419

different opinions on this very thing.

322

00:09:05,419 --> 00:09:07,004

And we're like, "Okay, we got to do a

323

00:09:07,004 --> 00:09:08,130

full episode on this."

324

00:09:08,130 --> 00:09:10,883

And really unpack that, because it feels

325

00:09:10,883 --> 00:09:11,926

like this is even a

326

00:09:11,926 --> 00:09:14,095

hard topic and conversation

327

00:09:14,303 --> 00:09:17,139

to have because there's so much baggage.

328

00:09:17,139 --> 00:09:17,932

I get it, you're right.

329

00:09:17,932 --> 00:09:20,351

Like hundreds and hundreds of years of

330

00:09:20,351 --> 00:09:22,019

debates and disputations

331

00:09:22,019 --> 00:09:24,605

and executions, even in the

332

00:09:24,605 --> 00:09:26,691

extreme case, well, in some cases, it

333

00:09:26,691 --> 00:09:27,400

wasn't very extreme, it

334

00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:28,651

just happened because you

335

00:09:28,651 --> 00:09:29,819

disagree so we will kill you.

336

00:09:30,820 --> 00:09:32,280

Okay, so this is really helpful.

337

00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:33,114

We're laying some groundwork.

338

00:09:33,656 --> 00:09:34,240

Where would you like

339

00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:35,199

to take it from here?

340

00:09:35,574 --> 00:09:37,743

How do we actually get into the deep end

341

00:09:37,743 --> 00:09:39,704

of not just definitions now?

342

00:09:40,329 --> 00:09:41,038

Yeah, let's go.

343

00:09:41,038 --> 00:09:42,039

When I was trying to prepare for this

344

00:09:42,039 --> 00:09:43,082

message, you know, for this

345

00:09:43,082 --> 00:09:44,500

podcast, I was just trying

346

00:09:44,500 --> 00:09:45,001

to think, "Oh, how do

347

00:09:45,001 --> 00:09:45,668

we go back and forth?"

348

00:09:45,668 --> 00:09:47,503

There's a lot I'd like to cover, because

349

00:09:47,503 --> 00:09:48,963

I think there's a lot

350

00:09:48,963 --> 00:09:50,631

of preconceived things

351

00:09:50,631 --> 00:09:52,800

that are thought about, you know, this.

352

00:09:53,718 --> 00:09:55,428

So I have prepared some things, but let's

353

00:09:55,428 --> 00:09:56,804

make it where you can

354

00:09:56,804 --> 00:09:58,306

engage in it, you know,

355

00:09:58,306 --> 00:09:59,682

and you can break it up and say, "Wait,

356

00:09:59,682 --> 00:10:00,474

wait, wait, wait, wait, go

357

00:10:00,474 --> 00:10:01,350

back to that," or something

358

00:10:01,350 --> 00:10:03,519

like that, and stop my train of thought.

359

00:10:04,186 --> 00:10:05,771

I brought several images and things

360

00:10:05,771 --> 00:10:06,814

because I think it brings...

361

00:10:07,940 --> 00:10:10,359

We're kind of have to break out of just

362

00:10:10,359 --> 00:10:12,611

what's on paper, which is

363

00:10:12,611 --> 00:10:14,655

the emphasis on the early

364

00:10:14,655 --> 00:10:17,575

church and the early Anabaptist is, end

365

00:10:17,575 --> 00:10:19,368

of the day, what's reality?

366

00:10:20,411 --> 00:10:21,120

What's your life like?

367

00:10:21,579 --> 00:10:23,247

What's happening in these sacraments that

368

00:10:23,247 --> 00:10:24,874

you're claiming is

369

00:10:24,874 --> 00:10:25,875

big to them, and you'll

370

00:10:25,875 --> 00:10:26,292

see that.

371

00:10:26,917 --> 00:10:29,545

So anyway, so let's go in there and then

372

00:10:29,545 --> 00:10:30,963

feel free to stop me and

373

00:10:30,963 --> 00:10:31,839

all that kind of thing.

374

00:10:33,424 --> 00:10:35,259

I will say this, I should say that this

375

00:10:35,259 --> 00:10:38,054

is a very loaded topic,

376

00:10:38,387 --> 00:10:39,180

and I don't want to give

377

00:10:39,180 --> 00:10:41,724

an impression that I have come up with

378

00:10:41,724 --> 00:10:42,975

all this research myself.

379

00:10:42,975 --> 00:10:43,976

As a matter of fact, I have been very

380

00:10:43,976 --> 00:10:45,936

indebted to many from both

381

00:10:45,936 --> 00:10:48,564

the Catholic and the Protestant

382

00:10:48,898 --> 00:10:50,024

and Anabaptist writers.

383

00:10:50,316 --> 00:10:51,817

I have a slide here that I was just

384

00:10:51,817 --> 00:10:53,569

trying to jot down,

385

00:10:53,778 --> 00:10:54,904

even preparing for this.

386

00:10:55,738 --> 00:10:56,405

Some of the people have

387

00:10:56,405 --> 00:10:57,740

really put a lot of work into this.

388

00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:00,242

I have Robert Friedmann in 1940s and such.

389

00:11:00,826 --> 00:11:03,454

One particular good scholar lately is

390

00:11:03,454 --> 00:11:04,747

John D. Remple, and

391

00:11:04,747 --> 00:11:06,415

he's done several things on

392

00:11:06,415 --> 00:11:07,291

the sacraments, which I

393

00:11:07,291 --> 00:11:08,542

have found very helpful.

394

00:11:08,918 --> 00:11:10,378

Joel Schmidt has one you'll see that I'm

395

00:11:10,378 --> 00:11:11,128

going to be mentioning to.

396

00:11:11,754 --> 00:11:15,049

Arnold Snyder has done really good stuff.

397

00:11:15,049 --> 00:11:17,593

He has an amazing article on using the

398

00:11:17,593 --> 00:11:19,136

Osborne and how that was related.

399

00:11:19,303 --> 00:11:20,429

I'll be referring to on

400

00:11:20,429 --> 00:11:21,597

another episode, I think.

401

00:11:22,306 --> 00:11:25,184

Trip York, John D. Roth, is just all the

402

00:11:25,184 --> 00:11:25,726

things he's brought

403

00:11:25,726 --> 00:11:26,936

together, and even some of his

404

00:11:26,936 --> 00:11:28,396

things and his stories and his ordinances

405

00:11:28,396 --> 00:11:29,105

and things that he

406

00:11:29,105 --> 00:11:30,272

talks about, I think are

407

00:11:30,272 --> 00:11:30,481

good.

408

00:11:30,981 --> 00:11:32,900

Thomas Finger was a writer, contemporary

409

00:11:32,900 --> 00:11:34,151

Anabaptist theology has

410

00:11:34,151 --> 00:11:35,277

written some very interesting

411

00:11:35,528 --> 00:11:35,694

things.

412

00:11:36,195 --> 00:11:38,447

There's an article by Michelle Ferguson

413

00:11:38,447 --> 00:11:41,075

on Marpeck, which I found very helpful.

414

00:11:41,283 --> 00:11:43,160

It's out by, I have it quoted in here.

415

00:11:43,828 --> 00:11:45,204

David Bercot, of course, has been a

416

00:11:45,204 --> 00:11:46,747

big inspiration for me.

417

00:11:47,123 --> 00:11:48,124

All of his writings through the early

418

00:11:48,124 --> 00:11:49,583

church has been excellent.

419

00:11:50,209 --> 00:11:53,504

Everett Ferguson is a ... People don't

420

00:11:53,504 --> 00:11:54,547

give him enough attention.

421

00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:56,590

I think he's a very honest scholar.

422

00:11:56,841 --> 00:11:58,300

We don't always agree with everything,

423

00:11:58,300 --> 00:12:00,719

but his research, I think, is very good.

424

00:12:01,178 --> 00:12:02,513

And I've been very blessed by Everett

425

00:12:02,513 --> 00:12:03,556

Ferguson, and particularly

426

00:12:03,556 --> 00:12:04,723

his work on the early church

427

00:12:04,849 --> 00:12:05,724

and some of the things

428

00:12:05,724 --> 00:12:06,725

he says on the sacrament.

429

00:12:07,309 --> 00:12:11,021

I had some of his work as textbooks for a

430

00:12:11,021 --> 00:12:11,522

course on early

431

00:12:11,522 --> 00:12:13,149

church history, and I just

432

00:12:13,232 --> 00:12:14,066

loved it.

433

00:12:14,233 --> 00:12:15,484

Here's a textbook you're expecting to be

434

00:12:15,484 --> 00:12:16,694

boring, and it's 900

435

00:12:16,694 --> 00:12:17,528

pages and just read the

436

00:12:17,528 --> 00:12:17,987

whole thing.

437

00:12:17,987 --> 00:12:18,529

It's so good.

438

00:12:19,071 --> 00:12:20,531

Yeah, I use that as at Zollikon.

439

00:12:20,781 --> 00:12:22,074

He has one on that.

440

00:12:22,533 --> 00:12:25,953

Kirk MacGregor, amazing article on

441

00:12:25,953 --> 00:12:26,912

Hubmeier, I'll share.

442

00:12:27,997 --> 00:12:29,373

John Behr is an Orthodox scholar.

443

00:12:30,791 --> 00:12:32,084

What you'll really appreciate about John

444

00:12:32,084 --> 00:12:33,627

Behr today is,

445

00:12:33,919 --> 00:12:35,087

unfortunately, when you get into

446

00:12:35,087 --> 00:12:39,216

the internet, you get so lost in people

447

00:12:39,216 --> 00:12:41,260

being extremely factious.

448

00:12:41,719 --> 00:12:43,762

This topic is huge with that.

449

00:12:43,971 --> 00:12:44,972

As in divisive.

450

00:12:44,972 --> 00:12:45,473

And divisive.

451

00:12:45,973 --> 00:12:48,434

And drawing battle lines almost of like,

452

00:12:48,434 --> 00:12:49,143

"I'm here, you're there."

453

00:12:49,185 --> 00:12:50,102

Yeah, and it's really

454

00:12:50,102 --> 00:12:52,104

not an honest scholarship.

455

00:12:52,438 --> 00:12:55,065

I get very disappointed by some of these

456

00:12:55,065 --> 00:12:56,025

writers, and I really

457

00:12:56,025 --> 00:12:57,359

appreciate John Behr as even

458

00:12:57,359 --> 00:12:59,320

if I disagree with him, I find him to be

459

00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:00,696

a very honest scholar.

460

00:13:00,696 --> 00:13:01,280

Like, for instance, when there are

461

00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:02,072

discussions on Apostolic

462

00:13:02,072 --> 00:13:04,074

Succession or different things

463

00:13:04,074 --> 00:13:06,160

that are there, you'll see him admitting

464

00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:07,870

weaknesses that your

465

00:13:07,870 --> 00:13:10,122

apologist online are just making

466

00:13:10,122 --> 00:13:10,873

a mess of.

467

00:13:11,624 --> 00:13:13,876

Jaroslav Pelikan wrote some very good

468

00:13:13,876 --> 00:13:15,085

books on historical theology.

469

00:13:15,336 --> 00:13:16,337

I've really appreciated him.

470

00:13:16,337 --> 00:13:16,921

Also Orthodox.

471

00:13:18,130 --> 00:13:22,218

There's a cardinal, I quote, Henri de

472

00:13:22,218 --> 00:13:23,802

Lubac, who was a cardinal

473

00:13:23,802 --> 00:13:26,972

in the 1940s involved in

474

00:13:26,972 --> 00:13:28,140

Vatican II and everything.

475

00:13:28,432 --> 00:13:30,142

And he really talks about this concept of

476

00:13:30,142 --> 00:13:31,227

the body of Christ

477

00:13:31,227 --> 00:13:33,479

being the present gathering

478

00:13:34,021 --> 00:13:34,813

people and how that was

479

00:13:34,813 --> 00:13:35,731

lost in the Middle Ages.

480

00:13:36,065 --> 00:13:37,066

It's an excellent book, I'll quote.

481

00:13:37,525 --> 00:13:39,151

Gregory Dix was something that the

482

00:13:39,151 --> 00:13:40,069

Bercots and I, we read

483

00:13:40,069 --> 00:13:41,654

years ago in his "Shape of

484

00:13:41,654 --> 00:13:43,280

the Liturgy," which I think is excellent.

485

00:13:43,614 --> 00:13:46,200

So there's some, I just pondered as I

486

00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,494

wanted to give credit to that.

487

00:13:49,286 --> 00:13:51,539

So in all this, I think we're going to

488

00:13:51,539 --> 00:13:52,873

make this episode, I'm

489

00:13:52,873 --> 00:13:53,874

going to focus on scriptures

490

00:13:53,874 --> 00:13:56,001

in the early church, and then look into

491

00:13:56,001 --> 00:13:57,002

the early Anabaptists

492

00:13:57,002 --> 00:13:58,212

and the principal thinkers,

493

00:13:58,212 --> 00:14:00,923

mainly looking at Hubmaier and Marpek.

494

00:14:01,715 --> 00:14:04,176

Another episode will perhaps do on just

495

00:14:04,176 --> 00:14:05,094

the Anabaptists'

496

00:14:05,094 --> 00:14:06,679

thought and sacraments through

497

00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:07,805

the sources themselves.

498

00:14:08,514 --> 00:14:10,558

I think that's important because people

499

00:14:10,558 --> 00:14:11,767

probably, especially

500

00:14:11,767 --> 00:14:12,685

people that are really into this

501

00:14:12,685 --> 00:14:14,186

kind of stuff, right, will listen to this

502

00:14:14,186 --> 00:14:15,437

and be like, "Where's the sources?

503

00:14:15,646 --> 00:14:16,897

Wait, you didn't go deep enough.

504

00:14:16,897 --> 00:14:17,231

Hold on.

505

00:14:17,606 --> 00:14:18,941

Don't worry, that is coming.

506

00:14:18,941 --> 00:14:20,526

We'll do that as a separate one and release

507

00:14:20,526 --> 00:14:21,443

it later," just because

508

00:14:21,443 --> 00:14:22,778

there is so much material

509

00:14:22,903 --> 00:14:23,195

here.

510

00:14:23,404 --> 00:14:25,364

It felt wrong to try to smoosh it into

511

00:14:25,364 --> 00:14:26,699

one and said, "This way

512

00:14:26,699 --> 00:14:28,659

we can lay the groundwork,"

513

00:14:28,659 --> 00:14:29,952

and then that next episode is going to go

514

00:14:29,952 --> 00:14:31,036

much deeper into the

515

00:14:31,036 --> 00:14:31,912

actual source material,

516

00:14:32,204 --> 00:14:32,746

if I'm getting that about right.

517

00:14:33,205 --> 00:14:34,957

I hope that that will also...

518

00:14:36,125 --> 00:14:38,544

We build on other people's research and

519

00:14:38,544 --> 00:14:39,712

scholarship, and I love that.

520

00:14:40,254 --> 00:14:42,381

I would think that some of these, I'm

521

00:14:42,381 --> 00:14:43,507

quoting many of the other

522

00:14:43,507 --> 00:14:44,675

scholars that have looked

523

00:14:44,675 --> 00:14:46,176

into some of these things, and hopefully

524

00:14:46,176 --> 00:14:47,052

this can inspire young

525

00:14:47,052 --> 00:14:48,220

scholars to be able to say,

526

00:14:48,220 --> 00:14:49,346

"Yeah, I'd like to really dig into the

527

00:14:49,346 --> 00:14:50,264

Ausbund, to really dig

528

00:14:50,264 --> 00:14:51,140

into some of these writings

529

00:14:51,140 --> 00:14:52,725

of the German Baptists and that kind of

530

00:14:52,725 --> 00:14:53,934

thing that are amazing."

531

00:14:54,435 --> 00:14:56,061

We're going to do our best for the

532

00:14:56,061 --> 00:14:57,605

listeners to link everything

533

00:14:57,605 --> 00:14:59,481

that we can that you reference

534

00:14:59,481 --> 00:15:01,317

in the show notes or YouTube description

535

00:15:01,317 --> 00:15:02,276

or whatever, and then

536

00:15:02,276 --> 00:15:02,985

people can go read this

537

00:15:03,027 --> 00:15:05,029

stuff or look it up and dig on their own.

538

00:15:05,029 --> 00:15:05,738

I think that's going to be really

539

00:15:05,738 --> 00:15:06,780

important because I'm sure

540

00:15:06,780 --> 00:15:07,990

they'll have questions and

541

00:15:07,990 --> 00:15:08,574

things like that.

542

00:15:08,866 --> 00:15:10,242

So anyways, all right, well, let's go.

543

00:15:10,451 --> 00:15:11,201

Okay, so I'm going to

544

00:15:11,201 --> 00:15:12,077

start with this image.

545

00:15:12,786 --> 00:15:14,330

I love the interchange here.

546

00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,042

I think that this image here is striking.

547

00:15:18,292 --> 00:15:19,835

It's in the Martyr's Mirror, but it

548

00:15:19,835 --> 00:15:21,253

brings a scene that I

549

00:15:21,253 --> 00:15:23,047

think is very impressive to

550

00:15:23,047 --> 00:15:28,927

kind of frame the fights, the arguments,

551

00:15:29,178 --> 00:15:30,763

the debates of the

552

00:15:30,763 --> 00:15:31,680

Anabaptists during the time

553

00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:32,264

of the Reformation.

554

00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:33,974

So this is 1500s.

555

00:15:33,974 --> 00:15:36,810

This is 1500s, 1553, early Anabaptism.

556

00:15:37,227 --> 00:15:39,730

We're in the Netherlands and coming

557

00:15:39,730 --> 00:15:41,857

through the place here is

558

00:15:41,857 --> 00:15:44,360

this procession carrying

559

00:15:45,611 --> 00:15:47,738

a monstrance with the Eucharist that

560

00:15:47,738 --> 00:15:48,447

would have been in there

561

00:15:48,447 --> 00:15:49,657

and that everyone's like,

562

00:15:49,657 --> 00:15:50,699

"Oh, it's coming his way,"

563

00:15:50,699 --> 00:15:51,909

and he has a little shop.

564

00:15:52,868 --> 00:15:55,454

As he has a little shop, he's like, even

565

00:15:55,454 --> 00:15:56,747

this lady, I guess,

566

00:15:56,747 --> 00:15:57,748

almost looks like a noble or

567

00:15:57,748 --> 00:15:58,415

something is trying to

568

00:15:58,415 --> 00:15:59,958

say, "You got to come down.

569

00:15:59,958 --> 00:16:00,584

You got to stop there."

570

00:16:01,001 --> 00:16:02,711

Kneel before it. Kneel down.

571

00:16:04,004 --> 00:16:06,048

And why is because they would believe

572

00:16:06,048 --> 00:16:07,299

that this is not just a

573

00:16:07,299 --> 00:16:08,550

representation of the body

574

00:16:08,550 --> 00:16:11,095

of Christ, that this is actually Jesus

575

00:16:11,095 --> 00:16:13,055

himself, which

576

00:16:13,055 --> 00:16:15,307

transubstantiation would teach that

577

00:16:15,307 --> 00:16:17,559

that means it's not only venerated, not

578

00:16:17,559 --> 00:16:18,727

only respected, not only

579

00:16:18,727 --> 00:16:19,520

says you have a theology

580

00:16:19,645 --> 00:16:21,605

of the real presence, that you can

581

00:16:21,605 --> 00:16:25,025

worship this bread as Christ himself.

582

00:16:25,317 --> 00:16:26,985

Oh, okay.

583

00:16:27,027 --> 00:16:29,071

So it's commanded that everybody bow when

584

00:16:29,071 --> 00:16:30,155

it comes through here

585

00:16:30,155 --> 00:16:31,448

and out of his conviction,

586

00:16:31,699 --> 00:16:32,533

he couldn't do it.

587

00:16:32,533 --> 00:16:33,742

So this is early Anabaptist saying,

588

00:16:34,243 --> 00:16:35,828

"Yeah, that isn't the real thing."

589

00:16:35,828 --> 00:16:37,121

It's not the real thing and I can't do

590

00:16:37,121 --> 00:16:38,455

this because this would be idolatry.

591

00:16:38,872 --> 00:16:39,748

I can't do this.

592

00:16:40,207 --> 00:16:42,334

So the story goes on that they capture

593

00:16:42,334 --> 00:16:44,044

him and it doesn't

594

00:16:44,044 --> 00:16:45,379

mention specifically, but I

595

00:16:45,379 --> 00:16:46,547

assume this would have been Catholic at

596

00:16:46,547 --> 00:16:49,133

the time, he was burned at the stake.

597

00:16:49,633 --> 00:16:51,009

There's an interesting thing that happens

598

00:16:51,009 --> 00:16:53,220

and I want to emphasize

599

00:16:53,220 --> 00:16:54,388

this of what the Martyrs'

600

00:16:54,430 --> 00:16:55,013

mirror goes.

601

00:16:55,347 --> 00:16:58,517

It focuses on the bailiff himself who

602

00:16:58,517 --> 00:17:01,478

would have been in charge

603

00:17:01,478 --> 00:17:03,439

of his execution and what

604

00:17:03,439 --> 00:17:04,773

the Holy Spirit was

605

00:17:04,773 --> 00:17:07,151

putting in his mind about it.

606

00:17:07,151 --> 00:17:07,860

And the Martyrs'

607

00:17:07,860 --> 00:17:09,111

mirror goes on to say this.

608

00:17:09,486 --> 00:17:10,863

He says, "The bailiff who had him

609

00:17:10,863 --> 00:17:12,197

executed on returning

610

00:17:12,197 --> 00:17:14,867

home from this deed was laid

611

00:17:14,867 --> 00:17:17,953

upon a bed of severe sickness and

612

00:17:17,953 --> 00:17:20,664

constantly exclaimed with sorrow and

613

00:17:20,664 --> 00:17:22,374

remorse, "Oh, Simon,

614

00:17:23,083 --> 00:17:23,333

Simon."

615

00:17:24,084 --> 00:17:25,210

And although the priest and the monk

616

00:17:25,210 --> 00:17:26,712

sought to absolve him,

617

00:17:26,712 --> 00:17:28,797

you're forgiven, they were

618

00:17:28,797 --> 00:17:30,632

nevertheless not able to give him the

619

00:17:30,632 --> 00:17:33,135

least comfort, but he soon died in

620

00:17:33,135 --> 00:17:35,512

despair, an instructive

621

00:17:35,512 --> 00:17:37,139

and memorial example to

622

00:17:37,139 --> 00:17:39,057

all tyrants and persecutors."

623

00:17:40,142 --> 00:17:41,310

So Simon is the person he

624

00:17:41,310 --> 00:17:43,020

just burns at the stake, right?

625

00:17:43,437 --> 00:17:45,022

And what year is this?

626

00:17:45,022 --> 00:17:45,731

It's 1553.

627

00:17:46,273 --> 00:17:46,482

Yeah.

628

00:17:47,274 --> 00:17:48,275

So he's torn apart.

629

00:17:48,275 --> 00:17:48,901

That's crazy.

630

00:17:49,318 --> 00:17:51,987

So forget all your theology.

631

00:17:52,279 --> 00:17:53,405

You got to understand that when the

632

00:17:53,405 --> 00:17:55,866

Anabaptists are talking

633

00:17:55,866 --> 00:17:57,159

about these issues and they're

634

00:17:57,159 --> 00:17:59,328

rejecting the mass or whatever, you've

635

00:17:59,328 --> 00:18:01,747

got to remember that's the reality.

636

00:18:02,581 --> 00:18:03,332

See, again, that's kind of

637

00:18:03,332 --> 00:18:04,249

how we opened this episode.

638

00:18:04,666 --> 00:18:06,835

These are debates and discussions we have

639

00:18:06,835 --> 00:18:08,045

now, but back then

640

00:18:08,045 --> 00:18:09,004

this was life and death

641

00:18:09,129 --> 00:18:10,339

for some people, which is...

642

00:18:11,757 --> 00:18:11,965

Wow.

643

00:18:12,007 --> 00:18:12,800

So you'll see how that

644

00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,052

plays out in their discussion.

645

00:18:15,761 --> 00:18:17,137

And I want to say this as a disclaimer.

646

00:18:18,931 --> 00:18:21,141

Very importantly this, as I ponder this,

647

00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:23,435

I'm not here to set the

648

00:18:23,435 --> 00:18:24,520

Anabaptist view of the

649

00:18:24,853 --> 00:18:26,688

sacraments over and against everyone

650

00:18:26,688 --> 00:18:27,815

else, as if the 16th

651

00:18:27,815 --> 00:18:29,191

century finally solved the

652

00:18:29,191 --> 00:18:29,483

riddle.

653

00:18:30,275 --> 00:18:30,609

All right?

654

00:18:31,109 --> 00:18:32,236

I don't think the early Anabaptists

655

00:18:32,236 --> 00:18:34,071

themselves spoke that way and I don't

656

00:18:34,071 --> 00:18:34,655

think neither should

657

00:18:34,738 --> 00:18:35,072

we.

658

00:18:36,615 --> 00:18:37,533

Why I didn't want to call it the

659

00:18:37,533 --> 00:18:38,450

Anabaptist view of the

660

00:18:38,450 --> 00:18:40,118

sacraments, but I want to call

661

00:18:40,118 --> 00:18:40,285

the...

662

00:18:40,786 --> 00:18:43,205

Is because it is a dynamic.

663

00:18:43,455 --> 00:18:45,082

It's something that you solve different

664

00:18:45,082 --> 00:18:46,792

writers and we don't have

665

00:18:46,792 --> 00:18:48,836

a work where someone tried

666

00:18:48,919 --> 00:18:50,295

to like, "This is it.

667

00:18:50,295 --> 00:18:51,004

We're going to get it.

668

00:18:51,213 --> 00:18:53,048

We're going to tell everyone and be able

669

00:18:53,048 --> 00:18:54,007

to define all this."

670

00:18:54,633 --> 00:18:57,886

I truly do appreciate the discussions

671

00:18:57,886 --> 00:18:59,638

about the sacraments

672

00:18:59,638 --> 00:19:01,598

from my Greek Orthodox, my

673

00:19:02,641 --> 00:19:03,851

Roman Catholics, my Protestants.

674

00:19:04,309 --> 00:19:06,562

The Reformers have some amazing things to

675

00:19:06,562 --> 00:19:07,396

say about it,

676

00:19:07,396 --> 00:19:08,605

particularly when you get into the

677

00:19:08,605 --> 00:19:09,439

idea of the Scriptures

678

00:19:09,439 --> 00:19:11,108

itself being a sacrament.

679

00:19:11,108 --> 00:19:12,609

I love that idea of the Reformers.

680

00:19:13,360 --> 00:19:14,987

I say this, I teach this in my class,

681

00:19:15,445 --> 00:19:16,572

that if an argument has

682

00:19:16,572 --> 00:19:18,407

lasted over 500 years,

683

00:19:19,032 --> 00:19:20,367

it's probably not stupid.

684

00:19:20,742 --> 00:19:22,035

You get some feedback on that one?

685

00:19:23,620 --> 00:19:25,581

I think that is such a valid point

686

00:19:25,581 --> 00:19:29,459

because I have heard some conversations.

687

00:19:30,627 --> 00:19:32,045

I can't even think of a specific...

688

00:19:32,045 --> 00:19:34,089

But it's just kind of in the air when us

689

00:19:34,089 --> 00:19:35,716

Mennonites or whatever are

690

00:19:35,716 --> 00:19:36,800

having conversations about

691

00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,052

this and be like, "Okay, the Catholics or

692

00:19:39,052 --> 00:19:39,720

the Orthodox or

693

00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:41,388

whatever, that's just dumb that

694

00:19:41,388 --> 00:19:42,347

they believe this."

695

00:19:43,223 --> 00:19:44,016

But the implication being

696

00:19:44,016 --> 00:19:46,059

like, "We kind of fixed this.

697

00:19:46,518 --> 00:19:48,604

We kind of came and corrected everything

698

00:19:48,604 --> 00:19:50,314

and we've got it figured out."

699

00:19:51,857 --> 00:19:53,901

I can't pinpoint even a specific error

700

00:19:53,901 --> 00:19:55,694

that's stated, but it's just this vibe.

701

00:19:57,321 --> 00:19:58,488

I think you make an excellent point.

702

00:19:58,822 --> 00:20:00,699

This is an argument that has lasted a

703

00:20:00,699 --> 00:20:01,909

really long time and we

704

00:20:01,909 --> 00:20:03,911

should be humble, approach

705

00:20:03,911 --> 00:20:06,955

carefully and acknowledge that it has

706

00:20:06,955 --> 00:20:08,415

been very, very divisive

707

00:20:08,415 --> 00:20:10,125

and a lot of people have

708

00:20:10,167 --> 00:20:11,960

died over these disagreements, which

709

00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:13,295

again is just really

710

00:20:13,295 --> 00:20:14,129

hard for me to get my head

711

00:20:14,129 --> 00:20:14,588

around that.

712

00:20:14,588 --> 00:20:15,339

What a tragedy.

713

00:20:15,923 --> 00:20:16,548

Yeah, exactly.

714

00:20:16,757 --> 00:20:18,550

I think that's really at the core.

715

00:20:18,550 --> 00:20:20,135

This is really sad

716

00:20:20,135 --> 00:20:22,304

that it got to that point.

717

00:20:22,638 --> 00:20:24,973

I want to say this, since I came into the

718

00:20:24,973 --> 00:20:25,766

Anabaptists through

719

00:20:25,766 --> 00:20:27,976

the early church, I guess

720

00:20:27,976 --> 00:20:29,895

I've always been in what's kind of even

721

00:20:29,895 --> 00:20:31,438

in a small circle, but

722

00:20:31,438 --> 00:20:32,189

what we would call like

723

00:20:32,189 --> 00:20:35,400

the kingdom movement of Anabaptism, which

724

00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,444

typically really focuses on the teachings

725

00:20:37,569 --> 00:20:40,238

of Jesus Christ, but also usually has a

726

00:20:40,238 --> 00:20:42,074

very high view of the sacraments.

727

00:20:42,866 --> 00:20:45,994

In those discussions, and I'm a part of

728

00:20:45,994 --> 00:20:49,289

them, I don't think it's

729

00:20:49,289 --> 00:20:50,582

many times things are said

730

00:20:50,582 --> 00:20:53,835

in a very reactionary way, factious way,

731

00:20:54,294 --> 00:20:54,962

and I think that

732

00:20:54,962 --> 00:20:56,630

they're not understanding the

733

00:20:56,630 --> 00:20:59,174

arguments from the Reformers and from the

734

00:20:59,174 --> 00:21:00,509

early Anabaptists and

735

00:21:00,509 --> 00:21:01,677

it gets sort of this,

736

00:21:02,177 --> 00:21:02,636

the way it's

737

00:21:02,636 --> 00:21:04,721

presented is just not correct.

738

00:21:05,472 --> 00:21:07,766

So I do want to, part of the reason here

739

00:21:07,766 --> 00:21:08,642

is to kind of look at

740

00:21:08,642 --> 00:21:09,977

to both sides and say,

741

00:21:09,977 --> 00:21:12,854

I am very indebted to the things that are

742

00:21:12,854 --> 00:21:14,231

said and they lasted

743

00:21:14,231 --> 00:21:15,315

500 years, they lasted

744

00:21:15,315 --> 00:21:16,108

1,000 years.

745

00:21:16,984 --> 00:21:18,777

These arguments are serious and I'm still

746

00:21:18,777 --> 00:21:20,153

to this day learning from them.

747

00:21:20,153 --> 00:21:22,864

And I don't, I would never argue, hey,

748

00:21:23,448 --> 00:21:24,574

just get this little

749

00:21:24,574 --> 00:21:26,284

collection of documents and

750

00:21:26,284 --> 00:21:27,202

that's all you're going to do.

751

00:21:27,369 --> 00:21:28,787

Yes, this is a deep subject and it

752

00:21:28,787 --> 00:21:29,746

deserves to be studied

753

00:21:29,746 --> 00:21:31,164

from different writers still

754

00:21:31,164 --> 00:21:31,707

to this day.

755

00:21:33,709 --> 00:21:35,377

And it goes down to this statement here.

756

00:21:36,294 --> 00:21:41,091

My verse, my life verse is from Mark

757

00:21:41,091 --> 00:21:42,676

chapter 9, "Have salt

758

00:21:42,676 --> 00:21:45,303

within yourself and peace with

759

00:21:45,303 --> 00:21:45,804

one another."

760

00:21:46,805 --> 00:21:48,849

The way I interpret this is that we

761

00:21:48,849 --> 00:21:49,975

should be salty, we

762

00:21:49,975 --> 00:21:51,226

should have conviction in our

763

00:21:51,226 --> 00:21:53,270

life, but at the end of the day, we

764

00:21:53,270 --> 00:21:55,272

should try to have peace

765

00:21:55,272 --> 00:21:56,690

with one another and to

766

00:21:56,690 --> 00:21:59,151

be able to, yeah, see where people's

767

00:21:59,151 --> 00:21:59,776

different perspective

768

00:21:59,776 --> 00:22:00,694

and that type of a thing.

769

00:22:01,319 --> 00:22:03,238

So if I overstate things and I probably

770

00:22:03,238 --> 00:22:04,823

will for emphasis in

771

00:22:04,823 --> 00:22:07,659

this message, my heart, hear

772

00:22:07,659 --> 00:22:10,746

me is that I genuinely do appreciate the

773

00:22:10,746 --> 00:22:11,997

studies of the Orthodox

774

00:22:11,997 --> 00:22:13,457

and the Catholics and the

775

00:22:13,457 --> 00:22:15,792

Reformers and the even the very low

776

00:22:15,792 --> 00:22:18,420

church and Anabaptist on these subjects.

777

00:22:18,420 --> 00:22:18,879

And I think they're

778

00:22:18,879 --> 00:22:20,047

important for the discussion.

779

00:22:20,422 --> 00:22:22,591

I say this, when we think of our

780

00:22:22,591 --> 00:22:24,760

churches, we should be

781

00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:26,970

unified until we can't.

782

00:22:27,804 --> 00:22:29,097

And this is why I think the idea of being

783

00:22:29,097 --> 00:22:30,223

catholic with a small

784

00:22:30,223 --> 00:22:31,516

c is very important.

785

00:22:31,933 --> 00:22:34,269

As in not Roman Catholic church, as in

786

00:22:34,269 --> 00:22:36,354

catholic, the meaning of the word itself.

787

00:22:36,354 --> 00:22:36,605

Yeah.

788

00:22:37,689 --> 00:22:38,356

It's universal.

789

00:22:38,857 --> 00:22:39,066

It means...

790

00:22:39,524 --> 00:22:41,610

And I have a slide here that I'm

791

00:22:41,610 --> 00:22:42,652

explaining it more and not

792

00:22:42,652 --> 00:22:44,237

unified only by accident.

793

00:22:44,654 --> 00:22:46,615

So if we take just like at five or 15

794

00:22:46,615 --> 00:22:47,991

points that I'm going to

795

00:22:47,991 --> 00:22:50,494

stand on and you do that

796

00:22:50,535 --> 00:22:53,038

and you end up with this kind of factious

797

00:22:53,038 --> 00:22:54,581

attitude, it's really

798

00:22:54,581 --> 00:22:55,540

dangerous and really

799

00:22:55,540 --> 00:22:55,874

ugly.

800

00:22:56,500 --> 00:22:58,251

And I think sectarianism is spoken of

801

00:22:58,251 --> 00:22:59,711

very strongly in the early

802

00:22:59,711 --> 00:23:00,587

church and the scriptures.

803

00:23:01,213 --> 00:23:02,506

And we should be very careful in this

804

00:23:02,506 --> 00:23:04,508

subject to not fall into sectarianism.

805

00:23:04,508 --> 00:23:05,050

I think it's one of the

806

00:23:05,050 --> 00:23:06,718

things that's killed this topic.

807

00:23:07,385 --> 00:23:09,679

In saying that, also there's different

808

00:23:09,679 --> 00:23:11,640

perspectives within the Anabaptists.

809

00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:12,390

I have here, you know, there's the Dutch

810

00:23:43,755 --> 00:23:47,676

These bring in a depth to this whole idea

811

00:23:47,676 --> 00:23:48,635

of what Anabaptist

812

00:23:48,635 --> 00:23:49,803

sacraments are in a very

813

00:23:49,803 --> 00:23:50,595

rich way.

814

00:23:50,971 --> 00:23:52,848

And I think we should really bring in the

815

00:23:52,848 --> 00:23:53,682

discussion that the

816

00:23:53,682 --> 00:23:54,933

German Baptist and the

817

00:23:54,975 --> 00:23:59,813

Amish bring in to this discussion as part

818

00:23:59,813 --> 00:24:00,981

of this package that we

819

00:24:00,981 --> 00:24:02,315

call Anabaptist sacraments.

820

00:24:02,691 --> 00:24:05,402

So I love this statement by Cornelius

821

00:24:05,402 --> 00:24:06,486

Dyck wrote in his

822

00:24:06,486 --> 00:24:07,696

introduction to Hans de Ries.

823

00:24:08,363 --> 00:24:10,073

And he says this when he talks about

824

00:24:10,073 --> 00:24:10,532

this, what he was

825

00:24:10,532 --> 00:24:11,867

referring to is that, okay, there's

826

00:24:11,867 --> 00:24:14,786

also all these little sectarian groups

827

00:24:14,786 --> 00:24:16,454

and non-trinitarian or

828

00:24:16,454 --> 00:24:17,414

this little strange group

829

00:24:17,414 --> 00:24:18,331

and this group all over.

830

00:24:19,166 --> 00:24:19,916

Why aren't those being

831

00:24:19,916 --> 00:24:20,959

considered Anabaptism?

832

00:24:21,209 --> 00:24:22,794

And Cornelius Dyck wrote this, and I

833

00:24:22,794 --> 00:24:23,420

think it's profound.

834

00:24:24,379 --> 00:24:28,049

He said it's helpful to define Anabaptism

835

00:24:28,049 --> 00:24:29,134

on the basis of

836

00:24:29,134 --> 00:24:30,760

consensus achieved by many

837

00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,597

Anabaptists over many years in relation

838

00:24:33,597 --> 00:24:35,056

to specific doctrines.

839

00:24:35,765 --> 00:24:38,518

This is, in effect, the dictum of Vincent

840

00:24:38,518 --> 00:24:40,353

of Lerins, that the

841

00:24:40,353 --> 00:24:41,813

true faith is that which

842

00:24:41,813 --> 00:24:42,647

has been believed

843

00:24:42,647 --> 00:24:45,483

everywhere, always, and by all.

844

00:24:46,484 --> 00:24:48,320

And he meaning that in an Anabaptist

845

00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:48,945

setting, but it's a

846

00:24:48,945 --> 00:24:53,200

really important statement.

847

00:24:54,201 --> 00:24:56,620

Actually in day two, when I teach the

848

00:24:56,620 --> 00:24:57,537

historical theology, I

849

00:24:57,537 --> 00:24:58,538

have them read through Vincent

850

00:24:58,538 --> 00:24:59,039

of Lerins.

851

00:24:59,831 --> 00:25:02,083

He's written around the early

852

00:25:02,083 --> 00:25:04,502

400s, late 300s, early 400s.

853

00:25:04,502 --> 00:25:07,422

Early church level, not ante-Nicene

854

00:25:07,422 --> 00:25:08,006

but it would be

855

00:25:08,006 --> 00:25:09,466

getting close to that.

856

00:25:09,633 --> 00:25:10,550

Yeah, kind of my edge of that after the

857

00:25:10,550 --> 00:25:11,468

Council of Ephesus and

858

00:25:11,468 --> 00:25:12,260

this kind of a thing.

859

00:25:12,260 --> 00:25:13,929

And he writes this statement and he says

860

00:25:13,929 --> 00:25:17,140

this thing, but I even hold Vincent to.

861

00:25:18,767 --> 00:25:20,519

We hold the faith which was believed

862

00:25:20,519 --> 00:25:23,104

everywhere, always, and by all.

863

00:25:23,939 --> 00:25:25,398

And I think this is very essential.

864

00:25:26,024 --> 00:25:29,319

And so why I'm an Anabaptist is because I

865

00:25:29,319 --> 00:25:30,820

honestly think that when

866

00:25:30,820 --> 00:25:32,155

we look at the emphasis

867

00:25:32,155 --> 00:25:33,698

that the early church put on the

868

00:25:33,698 --> 00:25:35,533

teachings of Jesus and even

869

00:25:35,533 --> 00:25:36,743

what the sacraments produce

870

00:25:36,868 --> 00:25:39,162

and you obeying the teachings of Jesus,

871

00:25:39,913 --> 00:25:41,623

you get a sense that in

872

00:25:41,623 --> 00:25:43,625

my opinion is lost later

873

00:25:43,667 --> 00:25:44,125

on.

874

00:25:45,794 --> 00:25:48,546

But that also means though that I'm

875

00:25:48,546 --> 00:25:50,257

trying to find where I

876

00:25:50,257 --> 00:25:52,050

can, where I can agree.

877

00:25:53,260 --> 00:25:54,761

And so having a catholic spirit, I'm

878

00:25:54,761 --> 00:25:55,679

trying to present that

879

00:25:55,679 --> 00:25:57,597

the best I can before I go

880

00:25:57,597 --> 00:25:57,931

through here and

881

00:25:57,931 --> 00:25:58,848

start insulting everybody.

882

00:25:59,557 --> 00:26:01,101

So, and again, when you say a catholic

883

00:26:01,101 --> 00:26:02,727

spirit, you're referring to

884

00:26:02,727 --> 00:26:04,437

catholic, lower c catholic,

885

00:26:04,646 --> 00:26:07,190

not Roman Catholic, but as in catholic,

886

00:26:07,399 --> 00:26:08,149

if I'm getting this

887

00:26:08,149 --> 00:26:09,943

right, as that universal,

888

00:26:10,402 --> 00:26:11,111

the one body of

889

00:26:11,111 --> 00:26:12,696

Christ, if that makes sense.

890

00:26:12,696 --> 00:26:12,904

Thank you.

891

00:26:13,113 --> 00:26:13,738

Does that make sense?

892

00:26:13,989 --> 00:26:14,531

Very much so.

893

00:26:14,531 --> 00:26:16,866

And I, as older I get, the more I truly

894

00:26:16,866 --> 00:26:18,076

see in the early church

895

00:26:18,076 --> 00:26:19,160

and in the scriptures,

896

00:26:20,287 --> 00:26:20,829

the early church is

897

00:26:20,829 --> 00:26:26,376

congregational and, but not isolated.

898

00:26:26,835 --> 00:26:28,503

What I typically say is they were

899

00:26:28,503 --> 00:26:30,880

congregational yet c atholics, [indistinct].

900

00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,342

They were autonomous yet accountable.

901

00:26:35,385 --> 00:26:35,969

Oh, okay.

902

00:26:36,261 --> 00:26:36,553

Yeah.

903

00:26:36,553 --> 00:26:37,721

So you didn't have them isolated.

904

00:26:37,721 --> 00:26:38,888

They had networks of bishops and working

905

00:26:38,888 --> 00:26:39,931

in different ways and like that.

906

00:26:39,931 --> 00:26:42,100

But the concept of having a huge

907

00:26:42,100 --> 00:26:43,852

worldwide conferences or

908

00:26:43,852 --> 00:26:45,353

patriarchs and there's just

909

00:26:45,353 --> 00:26:47,772

no way, none of the self-respecting

910

00:26:47,772 --> 00:26:49,065

scholars are going to say that even

911

00:26:49,065 --> 00:26:49,691

amongst the Catholic

912

00:26:49,733 --> 00:26:52,569

Catholics and Orthodox, but the idea then

913

00:26:52,569 --> 00:26:53,403

is that you're still

914

00:26:53,403 --> 00:26:55,238

trying to be, there is

915

00:26:55,238 --> 00:26:57,365

a faith that was handed down to the

916

00:26:57,365 --> 00:26:59,242

saints and that's part of

917

00:26:59,242 --> 00:27:01,453

what it means to be a Christian.

918

00:27:01,828 --> 00:27:04,164

And so all the way up to the different,

919

00:27:04,164 --> 00:27:06,416

you know, late antiquity

920

00:27:06,416 --> 00:27:08,918

and, you know, into the

921

00:27:09,169 --> 00:27:11,338

middle ages and everything, you have lots

922

00:27:11,338 --> 00:27:13,423

of different opinions on the sacraments.

923

00:27:13,423 --> 00:27:16,301

I mean, some people would be arguing much

924

00:27:16,301 --> 00:27:17,344

stronger one way or

925

00:27:17,344 --> 00:27:18,261

the other way and these

926

00:27:18,261 --> 00:27:18,845

different things.

927

00:27:19,346 --> 00:27:22,182

When we come to the Reformation, sadly,

928

00:27:22,891 --> 00:27:24,225

very strong sectarian

929

00:27:24,225 --> 00:27:26,728

lines are drawn by everyone.

930

00:27:27,687 --> 00:27:29,606

And this has hurt the ecumenical

931

00:27:29,606 --> 00:27:31,149

discussions surrounding the

932

00:27:31,149 --> 00:27:32,025

sacraments, in my opinion,

933

00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:32,776

very bad.

934

00:27:33,985 --> 00:27:36,446

So they drew lines that like, you know,

935

00:27:36,780 --> 00:27:37,572

at council of Trent,

936

00:27:37,572 --> 00:27:38,948

when the Catholics had their

937

00:27:38,990 --> 00:27:40,492

Reformation, sometimes called the counter

938

00:27:40,492 --> 00:27:43,370

Reformation, they drew

939

00:27:43,370 --> 00:27:44,537

lines that it's really

940

00:27:44,537 --> 00:27:45,705

hard to back up on.

941

00:27:45,747 --> 00:27:47,290

And in my opinion, messes up their

942

00:27:47,290 --> 00:27:48,541

theology on the sacraments.

943

00:27:49,250 --> 00:27:51,336

The Reformers also, although not quite as

944

00:27:51,336 --> 00:27:53,213

strong as that, drew

945

00:27:53,213 --> 00:27:55,799

some lines and certainly

946

00:27:55,924 --> 00:27:57,675

are different groups of the Anabaptists

947

00:27:57,675 --> 00:27:58,635

would have had

948

00:27:58,635 --> 00:28:00,762

encumbered some of that spirit as

949

00:28:00,762 --> 00:28:01,096

well.

950

00:28:01,388 --> 00:28:02,263

And I think it's unhealthy.

951

00:28:03,014 --> 00:28:05,100

As we think of here's an old image of the

952

00:28:05,100 --> 00:28:06,267

Council of Trent and

953

00:28:06,267 --> 00:28:07,644

in the midst of that,

954

00:28:08,728 --> 00:28:10,021

what's lacking is the

955

00:28:10,021 --> 00:28:11,564

very person of Jesus Christ.

956

00:28:11,815 --> 00:28:13,525

And I think it's just a shame.

957

00:28:14,609 --> 00:28:16,152

But the thing in looking at through all

958

00:28:16,152 --> 00:28:17,404

these centuries is I

959

00:28:17,404 --> 00:28:18,488

want to introduce this word,

960

00:28:19,072 --> 00:28:19,739

anachronism.

961

00:28:20,156 --> 00:28:21,574

Oh, a fun word.

962

00:28:21,825 --> 00:28:23,701

It's really important with the sacraments

963

00:28:23,701 --> 00:28:24,702

and really important for

964

00:28:24,702 --> 00:28:25,745

any historical theology.

965

00:28:26,496 --> 00:28:28,748

Anachronism is this.

966

00:28:29,207 --> 00:28:30,834

I'm trying my hand at some AI pictures so

967

00:28:30,834 --> 00:28:31,584

you can see what you think.

968

00:28:31,751 --> 00:28:33,420

So anyway, you can see some of it's

969

00:28:33,420 --> 00:28:34,129

funny, like what's that

970

00:28:34,129 --> 00:28:35,088

cell phone doing down there?

971

00:28:35,922 --> 00:28:38,091

Anyway, it says a chronological

972

00:28:38,091 --> 00:28:40,093

misplacement of persons,

973

00:28:40,468 --> 00:28:42,387

objects or events in a piece

974

00:28:42,387 --> 00:28:43,346

of art or literature.

975

00:28:44,139 --> 00:28:45,682

Oh, that makes a lot of sense why the

976

00:28:45,682 --> 00:28:46,391

cell phone is there now.

977

00:28:47,142 --> 00:28:47,517

Yeah, exactly.

978

00:28:48,309 --> 00:28:51,020

So as you're reading these things back to

979

00:28:51,020 --> 00:28:52,522

the early church, to

980

00:28:52,522 --> 00:28:53,690

the early Anabaptists,

981

00:28:53,690 --> 00:28:55,525

they're loaded with anachronisms.

982

00:28:55,900 --> 00:28:56,443

And this happens with

983

00:28:56,443 --> 00:28:57,402

the Atonement discussion.

984

00:28:57,402 --> 00:28:58,486

This happens with different things.

985

00:28:59,028 --> 00:28:59,571

And you're like, what

986

00:28:59,571 --> 00:29:00,655

are they actually saying?

987

00:29:00,864 --> 00:29:02,365

And we do this all the time.

988

00:29:02,365 --> 00:29:04,534

So like reading something in the context

989

00:29:04,534 --> 00:29:06,077

of when it was written.

990

00:29:06,870 --> 00:29:08,037

Is that a way of saying?

991

00:29:08,538 --> 00:29:08,746

Yeah.

992

00:29:08,830 --> 00:29:09,038

Okay.

993

00:29:09,205 --> 00:29:09,456

All right.

994

00:29:09,456 --> 00:29:11,291

So here's an understanding of, so here's

995

00:29:11,291 --> 00:29:12,041

a quote from Lincoln,

996

00:29:12,625 --> 00:29:13,460

"Don't believe everything

997

00:29:13,626 --> 00:29:15,044

you read on the internet just because

998

00:29:15,044 --> 00:29:15,587

there's a picture

999

00:29:15,587 --> 00:29:16,629

with a quote next to it."

00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:17,714

Sorry to Abraham Lincoln.

00:29:18,381 --> 00:29:19,424

This is a typical anachronism.

00:29:19,757 --> 00:29:22,802

I teach the students this, I teach the

00:29:22,802 --> 00:29:24,679

students this, just to try to remember

00:29:24,679 --> 00:29:25,680

the word anachronism.

00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:26,639

It's an important concept.

00:29:27,056 --> 00:29:28,308

Lincoln has an knack for anachronism.

00:29:28,308 --> 00:29:29,100

He's always coming up

00:29:29,100 --> 00:29:29,934

in these kinds of things.

00:29:30,894 --> 00:29:32,187

It's sometimes done purposely.

00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,814

Like here you have the image of the

00:29:34,814 --> 00:29:35,773

Caravaggio made for

00:29:35,773 --> 00:29:36,900

the calling of Matthew.

00:29:36,983 --> 00:29:40,445

He used the dress of his day in the

00:29:40,445 --> 00:29:43,406

Renaissance era to kind of

00:29:43,406 --> 00:29:45,700

make you feel more like Matthew.

00:29:46,493 --> 00:29:48,328

Or you have the conversions

00:29:48,328 --> 00:29:50,288

of Paul by Bruegel the Elder.

00:29:50,663 --> 00:29:52,749

And where in the midst of all this

00:29:52,749 --> 00:29:54,834

invasion of medieval, or

00:29:54,834 --> 00:29:57,795

excuse me, you know, 15th,

00:29:58,004 --> 00:30:00,173

16th century soldiers coming through, you

00:30:00,173 --> 00:30:01,341

have Paul being converted.

00:30:01,925 --> 00:30:02,509

Oh, yeah.

00:30:02,926 --> 00:30:05,720

It's almost intentionally contrasting.

00:30:07,013 --> 00:30:08,431

I'm not sure I'm getting the right word.

00:30:08,598 --> 00:30:11,100

He's jumping back in time, but yet

00:30:11,100 --> 00:30:13,186

bringing cultural elements

00:30:13,186 --> 00:30:15,480

from his own day to that story.

00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:15,730

Exactly.

00:30:16,147 --> 00:30:17,357

And kind of almost meshing them in a

00:30:17,357 --> 00:30:18,983

weird way, contrasting them almost.

00:30:19,150 --> 00:30:20,985

And at this moment is when right after

00:30:20,985 --> 00:30:21,778

the Beeldenstorm

00:30:21,778 --> 00:30:24,197

happened in 1566, he painted

00:30:24,197 --> 00:30:26,199

this in 1567, "Invasion is

00:30:26,199 --> 00:30:28,034

coming of the imperial troops."

00:30:28,409 --> 00:30:29,077

He wants to put the

00:30:29,077 --> 00:30:30,995

imperial troops getting converted.

00:30:31,329 --> 00:30:31,579

What?

00:30:31,996 --> 00:30:32,330

Yeah.

00:30:32,330 --> 00:30:33,498

Okay, that makes it...

00:30:33,498 --> 00:30:35,166

It's an anachronism, but done on purpose.

00:30:35,542 --> 00:30:37,293

But it also works bad.

00:30:37,919 --> 00:30:39,587

Like here's the, what is the early

00:30:39,587 --> 00:30:40,964

Christian view of the King James Bible?

00:30:41,756 --> 00:30:42,674

Oh, yeah.

00:30:42,924 --> 00:30:43,132

Okay.

00:30:43,967 --> 00:30:46,302

You know, these kind of questions are

00:30:46,302 --> 00:30:47,262

loaded in the

00:30:47,262 --> 00:30:48,763

questions of the sacraments.

00:30:49,722 --> 00:30:52,809

And so I really would like us to try, I

00:30:52,809 --> 00:30:54,102

know it's almost impossible,

00:30:54,769 --> 00:30:56,980

but try to really get into the context of

00:30:56,980 --> 00:30:58,773

the writers and let the text speak

00:30:59,482 --> 00:31:01,359

and let the context come out so that

00:31:01,359 --> 00:31:02,277

we'll understand it.

00:31:02,735 --> 00:31:04,571

So we discussed the sacraments and the

00:31:04,571 --> 00:31:05,947

different words, and I went into that.

00:31:05,947 --> 00:31:07,407

But so we're going to focus mainly today

00:31:07,407 --> 00:31:08,992

on two of the most, you

00:31:08,992 --> 00:31:10,493

know, the biggest sacraments.

00:31:11,077 --> 00:31:12,954

Okay, so this is a point then where I'd

00:31:12,954 --> 00:31:14,455

like to hop in and say,

00:31:15,331 --> 00:31:16,833

what do you make of the seven ordinances

00:31:16,833 --> 00:31:17,959

that were popularized

00:31:17,959 --> 00:31:19,168

in the last century?

00:31:19,168 --> 00:31:19,919

Like we mentioned that

00:31:19,919 --> 00:31:20,837

at the beginning is...

00:31:21,170 --> 00:31:22,589

So you're saying we're taking two here.

00:31:22,589 --> 00:31:23,089

We're not talking

00:31:23,089 --> 00:31:24,424

about some of those others.

00:31:24,674 --> 00:31:25,049

Yeah, yes. Would you...

00:31:25,091 --> 00:31:27,302

We're not going to get into those, but I

00:31:27,302 --> 00:31:29,012

want to grab that as it flies by.

00:31:29,262 --> 00:31:29,971

You have some...

00:31:30,763 --> 00:31:32,307

You don't have a consensus, even to this

00:31:32,307 --> 00:31:33,516

day, you don't have a consensus,

00:31:33,516 --> 00:31:35,310

even in the Catholic churches, on what

00:31:35,310 --> 00:31:36,519

the seven sacraments are.

00:31:36,519 --> 00:31:36,811

Okay.

00:31:37,145 --> 00:31:40,315

Council of Trent put that in stone that

00:31:40,315 --> 00:31:41,649

we have these seven sacraments.

00:31:42,150 --> 00:31:42,775

And then everyone's kind

00:31:42,775 --> 00:31:43,776

of said, "Oh, I need seven."

00:31:43,776 --> 00:31:44,652

So you see even in our...

00:31:44,902 --> 00:31:46,070

Well, yeah, I was

00:31:46,070 --> 00:31:47,322

actually like, about to-

00:31:48,948 --> 00:31:50,366

Just for reference- People...

00:31:50,992 --> 00:31:52,994

I'm going to read the seven that would be

00:31:52,994 --> 00:31:53,953

listed in the doctrines of the Bible,

00:31:53,995 --> 00:31:55,663

which would be a pretty standard

00:31:55,663 --> 00:31:57,915

Mennonite text that's been around for

00:31:57,915 --> 00:31:59,626

over 100 years now, actually.

00:32:00,501 --> 00:32:01,836

So Daniel Kauffman in "Doctorines of the

00:32:01,836 --> 00:32:03,171

Bible," for example, the

00:32:03,171 --> 00:32:04,213

seven he lists would say,

00:32:04,589 --> 00:32:06,257

"Water baptism, the communion, feet

00:32:06,257 --> 00:32:07,467

washing, devotional

00:32:07,467 --> 00:32:08,676

covering for Christian women,

00:32:09,510 --> 00:32:11,095

the Christian salutation, holy kiss,

00:32:11,554 --> 00:32:13,014

anointing with oil, marriage."

00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:13,848

Right.

00:32:14,182 --> 00:32:15,224

So we're not obviously

00:32:15,224 --> 00:32:16,392

going to go through all seven.

00:32:16,392 --> 00:32:17,310

That would take way too long.

00:32:17,310 --> 00:32:18,394

You're focusing on the

00:32:18,394 --> 00:32:19,646

baptism and communion one.

00:32:19,646 --> 00:32:19,937

Yeah.

00:32:20,188 --> 00:32:23,650

And why do you think it calls the head

00:32:23,650 --> 00:32:25,026

covering here, which is

00:32:25,026 --> 00:32:26,527

particular to Anabaptists,

00:32:26,819 --> 00:32:29,280

not in the ancients, but certainly 1920s

00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,407

on, why do you think that was on there?

00:32:31,407 --> 00:32:33,284

What wording is in the scriptures that

00:32:33,284 --> 00:32:34,452

made us call that a sacrament?

00:32:36,037 --> 00:32:38,206

It's because Paul starts the discussion,

00:32:38,998 --> 00:32:39,999

you hold these

00:32:39,999 --> 00:32:43,378

traditions of which I was given.

00:32:43,378 --> 00:32:44,796

So just like we were given the other

00:32:44,796 --> 00:32:46,923

things, this word in the

00:32:46,923 --> 00:32:48,758

Greek is given over and...

00:32:48,758 --> 00:32:51,094

So that's why, okay, I

00:32:51,094 --> 00:32:51,928

never thought of that.

00:32:51,928 --> 00:32:53,012

Yeah, it's an interesting thing.

00:32:53,304 --> 00:32:55,515

So, but again, we're going to be just

00:32:55,515 --> 00:32:56,683

using the baptism and

00:32:56,683 --> 00:32:57,600

communion discussion.

00:32:58,768 --> 00:33:00,144

In this case, we're not obviously going

00:33:00,144 --> 00:33:01,020

to use the full list because,

00:33:01,562 --> 00:33:03,106

which that could almost be a whole

00:33:03,106 --> 00:33:03,981

episode right there is

00:33:03,981 --> 00:33:04,774

comparing the different

00:33:04,774 --> 00:33:05,733

ordinance lists and things.

00:33:05,983 --> 00:33:06,776

I've not done that.

00:33:06,776 --> 00:33:07,402

That would be interesting.

00:33:07,402 --> 00:33:07,860

That would be interesting.

00:33:08,236 --> 00:33:09,862

But again, not in the scope, but I think

00:33:09,862 --> 00:33:10,947

that was a bit of context.

00:33:11,197 --> 00:33:12,782

There's a quick little side to one of the

00:33:12,782 --> 00:33:13,866

things I love about the

00:33:13,866 --> 00:33:15,368

reformers that they brought out

00:33:15,410 --> 00:33:17,203

during, which I think this is early

00:33:17,203 --> 00:33:18,037

church, Origen certainly

00:33:18,037 --> 00:33:19,664

says something of this nature,

00:33:20,206 --> 00:33:21,165

is the reading of the

00:33:21,165 --> 00:33:23,418

gospel itself as a sacrament.

00:33:24,252 --> 00:33:24,460

Interesting.

00:33:24,669 --> 00:33:25,670

If you look at the scriptures the way it

00:33:25,670 --> 00:33:27,463

says that faith comes by hearing and

00:33:27,463 --> 00:33:28,339

hearing by the word of

00:33:28,339 --> 00:33:31,259

God, that's very sacramental language.

00:33:31,718 --> 00:33:33,261

But in this case, we're going to be

00:33:33,261 --> 00:33:34,679

getting into the baptism and communion

00:33:34,679 --> 00:33:36,097

one, which would be two

00:33:36,848 --> 00:33:39,642

massive issues for Reformation, for the

00:33:39,642 --> 00:33:42,353

origins of the Anabaptists, well, the

00:33:42,353 --> 00:33:42,937

Protestant Reformation,

00:33:43,479 --> 00:33:44,939

because then you had the whole issue of

00:33:44,939 --> 00:33:46,816

believers baptism versus infant baptism,

00:33:47,650 --> 00:33:49,944

communion, transubstantiation, as we were

00:33:49,944 --> 00:33:51,154

just seeing Simon getting

00:33:51,154 --> 00:33:53,698

literally burned alive for

00:33:54,699 --> 00:33:56,993

not standing with where they typically

00:33:56,993 --> 00:33:57,660

would have said on

00:33:57,660 --> 00:33:59,412

transubstantiation, for example.

00:33:59,412 --> 00:33:59,579

Right.

00:33:59,954 --> 00:34:00,580

So those would be the

00:34:00,580 --> 00:34:01,873

two really big ones.

00:34:02,206 --> 00:34:04,041

Well, and then of course, the believers

00:34:04,041 --> 00:34:05,668

baptism would have been a huge one that

00:34:05,668 --> 00:34:07,295

many early Anabaptists

00:34:07,295 --> 00:34:08,129

would have died for that.

00:34:08,129 --> 00:34:08,629

Exactly.

00:34:08,629 --> 00:34:09,297

You know, died, I believe.

00:34:09,338 --> 00:34:11,424

And it's interesting, Hubmeier actually

00:34:11,424 --> 00:34:13,926

discusses these two in a way.

00:34:13,926 --> 00:34:14,802

He says, "Now, if we possess

00:34:14,844 --> 00:34:18,264

no other word of scripture," it's a

00:34:18,264 --> 00:34:19,056

little overstated here,

00:34:19,599 --> 00:34:21,392

"but only possess an accurate

00:34:21,476 --> 00:34:23,811

understanding of water baptism and the

00:34:23,811 --> 00:34:26,105

supper of Christ, we would possess God

00:34:26,105 --> 00:34:27,231

and all his creatures,

00:34:27,482 --> 00:34:28,983

faith and love, the law

00:34:28,983 --> 00:34:30,234

and all the prophets."

00:34:30,234 --> 00:34:32,320

Now, how about now four contacts from

00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:33,863

people who may not know of Hubmeier

00:34:33,863 --> 00:34:35,156

because he's lesser known

00:34:35,156 --> 00:34:36,365

Anabaptist figure, but he would have been

00:34:36,365 --> 00:34:37,325

right at the very beginning,

00:34:37,575 --> 00:34:38,576

one of the early Anabaptist

00:34:38,618 --> 00:34:39,619

writers and theologians.

00:34:39,911 --> 00:34:40,203

Yeah.

00:34:40,203 --> 00:34:42,538

Okay. So that for context.

00:34:42,538 --> 00:34:43,831

And we will get on to Hubmaier if you

00:34:43,831 --> 00:34:44,665

want to say anything

00:34:44,665 --> 00:34:45,833

about him in particular.

00:34:45,833 --> 00:34:46,793

No, no, just for context.

00:34:46,793 --> 00:34:47,085

Yes.

00:34:47,085 --> 00:34:48,169

People know this is one of the early

00:34:48,169 --> 00:34:49,378

Anabaptists writing that,

00:34:49,378 --> 00:34:50,379

which, do you know what year he

00:34:50,379 --> 00:34:51,047

would have wrote this?

00:34:51,339 --> 00:34:55,301

Well, it had to be 1528 or something.

00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:57,804

Yeah. I'm just guessing, but it's had to

00:34:57,804 --> 00:34:58,513

be somewhere in there.

00:34:58,513 --> 00:34:59,180

Very early then.

00:34:59,180 --> 00:35:00,556

So yeah. So the questions are, we're

00:35:00,556 --> 00:35:01,516

talking about these two.

00:35:01,724 --> 00:35:02,642

So what are they? Are they

00:35:02,642 --> 00:35:05,561

just signs? Are they means of grace? Are

00:35:05,561 --> 00:35:06,854

they mandates? What are

00:35:06,854 --> 00:35:07,688

we just doing? Do they

00:35:07,730 --> 00:35:11,108

signify an inward confession only? Do

00:35:11,108 --> 00:35:12,819

they convey grace to the

00:35:12,819 --> 00:35:15,071

believers? Are they binding

00:35:15,154 --> 00:35:19,200

commands from Christ and how you word all

00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,453

those comes out? You look at some of the,

00:35:22,453 --> 00:35:28,000

one of the earliest statement about how a

00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:29,836

church should gather was there in Zollikon

00:35:30,419 --> 00:35:31,879

with the congregational order.

00:35:31,879 --> 00:35:33,172

So is it what, right

00:35:33,172 --> 00:35:34,298

after the Anabaptists start?

00:35:34,507 --> 00:35:37,677

Right after 1525, you have the first

00:35:37,677 --> 00:35:38,845

baptism and then they're

00:35:38,845 --> 00:35:40,221

meeting there in Zollikon. And we

00:35:40,221 --> 00:35:42,348

believe that this came from there. It was

00:35:42,348 --> 00:35:45,351

already in the bindings with the

00:35:45,351 --> 00:35:46,185

Schleitheim Confession

00:35:46,185 --> 00:35:47,562

was a congregational order.

00:35:47,562 --> 00:35:49,480

And the Schleitheim Confession is only

00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:50,356

two years later. So this

00:35:50,356 --> 00:35:51,858

is extremely early in the

00:35:51,858 --> 00:35:52,567

Anabaptist movement.

00:35:52,692 --> 00:35:53,025

Exactly.

00:35:53,401 --> 00:35:53,860

Helpful context.

00:35:53,860 --> 00:35:55,987

Very beginning. And it mentions how you

00:35:55,987 --> 00:35:56,988

should have church,

00:35:56,988 --> 00:35:59,365

interestingly. And it talks about,

00:35:59,365 --> 00:36:00,616

you should meet at least three or four

00:36:00,616 --> 00:36:02,285

times a week. It says

00:36:02,285 --> 00:36:03,119

that when you meet together,

00:36:03,327 --> 00:36:05,997

you should read something godly or

00:36:05,997 --> 00:36:07,123

something. Let none be

00:36:07,123 --> 00:36:08,958

frivolous. We should be able to

00:36:08,958 --> 00:36:10,668

admonish one another in a brotherly and

00:36:10,668 --> 00:36:13,045

Christian way out of love. It

00:36:13,045 --> 00:36:14,422

says that we should have this

00:36:14,422 --> 00:36:17,008

common fund to be able to help the poor

00:36:17,008 --> 00:36:18,926

and this kind of a thing. It

00:36:18,926 --> 00:36:20,511

does mention that all gluttony

00:36:20,511 --> 00:36:23,264

should be avoided for the kingdom of God

00:36:23,264 --> 00:36:24,223

is not eating and drinking.

00:36:24,682 --> 00:36:25,474

And then the last thing it

00:36:25,474 --> 00:36:26,893

mentions is the Lord's Supper. And I'll

00:36:26,893 --> 00:36:28,936

quote it. It says, "The Lord's Supper

00:36:28,936 --> 00:36:30,104

shall be held as often

00:36:30,271 --> 00:36:32,982

as the brothers are together, thereby

00:36:32,982 --> 00:36:34,859

proclaiming the death of the Lord and

00:36:34,859 --> 00:36:35,943

thereby warning each

00:36:35,943 --> 00:36:38,654

one to commemorate how Christ gave his

00:36:38,654 --> 00:36:40,114

life for us and shed his

00:36:40,114 --> 00:36:42,241

blood for us, that we might also

00:36:42,241 --> 00:36:45,161

be willing to give our body and life for

00:36:45,161 --> 00:36:48,039

Christ's sake, which means for the sake

00:36:48,039 --> 00:36:48,998

of all the brothers."

00:36:49,874 --> 00:36:51,500

And that sounds, well, that sounds so

00:36:51,500 --> 00:36:53,502

nice. But you've got to

00:36:53,502 --> 00:36:54,879

understand this theology of

00:36:54,921 --> 00:36:57,590

martyrdom. That's why I started with that

00:36:57,590 --> 00:36:59,634

first image. When you came

00:36:59,634 --> 00:37:02,136

together and gave yourself

00:37:02,136 --> 00:37:04,889

for each other, this meant seriously that

00:37:04,889 --> 00:37:06,307

many of these were going to

00:37:06,307 --> 00:37:07,934

die and that communion was

00:37:07,934 --> 00:37:10,436

something that's very big to them. And we

00:37:10,436 --> 00:37:11,395

get in Conrad Grebel's

00:37:11,395 --> 00:37:12,605

letter again, Conrad Grebel would

00:37:12,605 --> 00:37:14,482

be one of the earliest, if not the

00:37:14,482 --> 00:37:16,984

earliest, Anabaptist there in

00:37:16,984 --> 00:37:19,153

Zurich. And he mentions this

00:37:19,153 --> 00:37:20,446

in one of his letters. He says, "The

00:37:20,446 --> 00:37:21,739

nighttime meal shall be

00:37:21,739 --> 00:37:23,699

practiced often and used much."

00:37:24,951 --> 00:37:26,827

Hubmaier actually had communion every

00:37:26,827 --> 00:37:29,830

Sunday night. They would

00:37:29,830 --> 00:37:31,165

come back and have that from

00:37:31,165 --> 00:37:33,084

what I've read. He said, and here's this

00:37:33,084 --> 00:37:34,377

quote, another court

00:37:34,377 --> 00:37:36,295

report of them. It says, "Small

00:37:36,295 --> 00:37:38,339

fellowships of Anabaptists sprang up like

00:37:38,339 --> 00:37:40,591

mushrooms everywhere." He reads one

00:37:40,591 --> 00:37:41,759

report. He said, "They

00:37:41,759 --> 00:37:44,261

moved from house to house for meeting in

00:37:44,261 --> 00:37:45,346

order to remain

00:37:45,346 --> 00:37:48,015

inconspicuous, where they read and studied

00:37:48,015 --> 00:37:50,101

the holy writings and commemorated the

00:37:50,101 --> 00:37:51,769

nighttime meal." And so this

00:37:51,769 --> 00:37:52,895

was an early court report from

00:37:52,937 --> 00:37:56,774

an outsider of what it looked like to be

00:37:56,774 --> 00:37:57,984

there in the early time.

00:37:58,859 --> 00:38:00,820

So I thought, as I pondered,

00:38:02,029 --> 00:38:03,322

who's going to be listening to this?

00:38:03,990 --> 00:38:04,907

There's going to be different ones.

00:38:05,282 --> 00:38:06,158

There's going to be some of

00:38:06,158 --> 00:38:07,076

those that are, wait, I've never really

00:38:07,076 --> 00:38:07,994

studied the sacraments at

00:38:07,994 --> 00:38:09,036

all. Never studied baptism.

00:38:09,662 --> 00:38:11,038

There's going to be some that are geeked

00:38:11,038 --> 00:38:13,624

out into lots of different things. And

00:38:13,624 --> 00:38:14,208

that's great. I love

00:38:14,208 --> 00:38:15,626

that. I hope for that. And then there's

00:38:15,626 --> 00:38:17,169

going to be some that are coming

00:38:17,169 --> 00:38:18,587

adversarial and that's fine,

00:38:18,587 --> 00:38:20,798

too. I don't mind the criticism, and so

00:38:20,798 --> 00:38:22,675

let it rip in the comments.

00:38:23,259 --> 00:38:26,303

But I thought I'd start with

00:38:26,303 --> 00:38:28,139

the scriptures. And so that everybody can

00:38:28,139 --> 00:38:29,265

get what is the context that

00:38:29,265 --> 00:38:30,474

everybody's debating over and

00:38:30,474 --> 00:38:32,059

talking about and some of the primary

00:38:32,059 --> 00:38:34,979

scriptures that we've been

00:38:34,979 --> 00:38:36,814

talking about for over 500 years,

00:38:37,064 --> 00:38:39,317

for much over 500 years. I was going to

00:38:39,317 --> 00:38:42,695

say one of the criticisms maybe, or

00:38:42,695 --> 00:38:43,779

critiques, whatever,

00:38:43,779 --> 00:38:45,364

that I've heard is like, "Well, we're all

00:38:45,364 --> 00:38:46,490

reading the same Bible.

00:38:46,782 --> 00:38:48,117

How is this so controversial?

00:38:48,159 --> 00:38:50,119

It shouldn't be that complicated." You

00:38:50,119 --> 00:38:53,164

get that. Yes. So it would

00:38:53,164 --> 00:38:54,457

be helpful, I think, bring in

00:38:54,540 --> 00:38:56,000

what are some of the scriptures being

00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:57,501

used. And then I'm sure there's

00:38:57,501 --> 00:38:59,253

apparently a wide range of

00:38:59,253 --> 00:39:00,921

interpretations because here we are. And

00:39:00,921 --> 00:39:03,299

I'm famous for quoting Conrad Grebel's

00:39:03,299 --> 00:39:05,176

axioms. "We believe the

00:39:05,176 --> 00:39:07,178

Bible without complicated interpretation,

00:39:07,178 --> 00:39:08,679

and out of that we speak."

00:39:08,679 --> 00:39:09,889

Yes. Or I speak, he wrote his

00:39:09,889 --> 00:39:12,058

letter. And then the other is that we

00:39:12,058 --> 00:39:13,434

believe the teachings of Lord are meant

00:39:13,434 --> 00:39:14,560

to be put into practice,

00:39:15,144 --> 00:39:16,687

the teachings of Jesus. And those are

00:39:16,687 --> 00:39:18,481

kind of... So let's look at then what's

00:39:18,481 --> 00:39:19,482

the simple interpretation

00:39:19,648 --> 00:39:21,901

of this? Yeah. All right. So let's look

00:39:21,901 --> 00:39:23,360

at it. Look at baptism. Okay.

00:39:23,778 --> 00:39:25,196

Oh boy. All right. Let's go in.

00:39:25,821 --> 00:39:28,365

So what does it say about baptism? In

00:39:28,365 --> 00:39:30,785

Acts 2.36, I'll back it

00:39:30,785 --> 00:39:31,869

up. And instead of your

00:39:31,869 --> 00:39:33,245

typical just coming right in at Acts

00:39:33,245 --> 00:39:34,872

2.38, "Therefore let all

00:39:34,872 --> 00:39:36,165

the house of Israel know

00:39:36,165 --> 00:39:39,001

assuredly that God has made this Jesus

00:39:39,001 --> 00:39:41,837

whom you crucified, both Lord and

00:39:41,837 --> 00:39:43,756

Christ." So Pentecost,

00:39:43,839 --> 00:39:45,674

Peter's preaching, "Now when they heard

00:39:45,674 --> 00:39:47,051

this, they were cut to the

00:39:47,051 --> 00:39:49,345

heart and said to Peter and to

00:39:49,345 --> 00:39:50,971

the rest of the apostles, "Men and

00:39:50,971 --> 00:39:54,266

brethren, what shall we do?" So many of

00:39:54,266 --> 00:39:54,934

the early Anabaptists

00:39:54,934 --> 00:39:57,812

would stress here that some kind of work

00:39:57,812 --> 00:39:58,979

of grace is obviously

00:39:58,979 --> 00:40:01,148

happening in the people here. They

00:40:01,148 --> 00:40:03,109

are convicted of the Holy Spirit, they're

00:40:03,109 --> 00:40:04,693

cut to the heart, and now

00:40:04,693 --> 00:40:06,362

they respond, "What shall we do?"

00:40:06,862 --> 00:40:08,989

And so then Peter said to them, "Repent

00:40:08,989 --> 00:40:10,825

and let every one of you be

00:40:10,825 --> 00:40:12,451

baptized in the name of Jesus

00:40:12,743 --> 00:40:16,247

Christ for the remission of sins, and you

00:40:16,247 --> 00:40:17,039

shall receive the

00:40:17,039 --> 00:40:18,290

gift of the Holy Spirit."

00:40:18,999 --> 00:40:21,627

So this loaded passage is, listen, what

00:40:21,627 --> 00:40:24,380

does baptism do? Of

00:40:24,380 --> 00:40:25,422

course, well, if you're going to

00:40:25,422 --> 00:40:26,882

look at the very plain, simple

00:40:26,882 --> 00:40:29,009

complication, you're being baptized for

00:40:29,009 --> 00:40:29,885

the remission of sins.

00:40:30,511 --> 00:40:31,679

We'll see through the book of Acts, I'm

00:40:31,679 --> 00:40:32,221

not going to go

00:40:32,221 --> 00:40:33,055

through every one of them,

00:40:33,431 --> 00:40:36,934

this whole scene of faith awakening a

00:40:36,934 --> 00:40:38,978

sinner and responding in

00:40:38,978 --> 00:40:40,980

baptism is very close together,

00:40:41,188 --> 00:40:43,399

almost entirely, and it makes it a lot

00:40:43,399 --> 00:40:46,068

easier. But this nevertheless, it

00:40:46,068 --> 00:40:48,070

certainly doesn't seem to be

00:40:49,405 --> 00:40:52,449

just an empty ritual. Romans chapter 6

00:40:52,449 --> 00:40:53,367

says, "Or do you not know

00:40:53,367 --> 00:40:54,994

that many as were baptized into

00:40:54,994 --> 00:40:56,912

Christ Jesus were baptized into his

00:40:56,912 --> 00:40:58,914

death? Therefore we are

00:40:58,914 --> 00:41:00,374

buried with him through baptism

00:41:00,457 --> 00:41:02,793

into death, that just as Christ was

00:41:02,793 --> 00:41:04,003

raised from the dead by the

00:41:04,003 --> 00:41:05,588

glory of the Father, even so we

00:41:05,671 --> 00:41:07,506

also should walk in newness of life."

00:41:07,882 --> 00:41:09,550

Galatians 3, 27, "For as

00:41:09,550 --> 00:41:11,343

many as you were baptized into

00:41:11,385 --> 00:41:15,848

Christ have put on Christ." Colossians 2:12

00:41:15,848 --> 00:41:16,891

"Buried with him in

00:41:16,891 --> 00:41:18,726

baptism in which you were also

00:41:18,851 --> 00:41:21,979

raised with him through faith in the

00:41:21,979 --> 00:41:23,522

working of God who raised him

00:41:23,522 --> 00:41:25,983

from the dead." And then one

00:41:25,983 --> 00:41:28,360

of the more famous ones in 1 Peter 3:20,

00:41:28,819 --> 00:41:30,613

"Who formerly were

00:41:30,613 --> 00:41:32,448

disobedient when once the divine

00:41:32,615 --> 00:41:34,783

longsuffering waited in the days of

00:41:34,783 --> 00:41:37,328

Noah, while the ark was being prepared in

00:41:37,328 --> 00:41:38,245

which a few, that is

00:41:38,245 --> 00:41:40,581

eight souls, were saved through water.

00:41:41,457 --> 00:41:43,167

There is also an antitype

00:41:43,167 --> 00:41:45,836

which now saves us." Baptism,

00:41:46,045 --> 00:41:48,214

not the removal of the flesh, the filth

00:41:48,214 --> 00:41:50,674

of the flesh, but the answer

00:41:50,674 --> 00:41:52,259

of a good conscience towards

00:41:52,259 --> 00:41:54,762

God through the resurrection of Jesus

00:41:54,762 --> 00:41:57,681

Christ. So looking at the plain

00:41:57,681 --> 00:41:59,391

Scripture, what is it doing?

00:42:00,267 --> 00:42:02,519

Here, 1 Peter, I highlighted the word

00:42:02,519 --> 00:42:04,521

answer there, loaded word,

00:42:04,521 --> 00:42:05,397

different interpretations,

00:42:05,397 --> 00:42:06,899

sometimes, and I think in the New

00:42:06,899 --> 00:42:08,525

American Standard it says, "An appeal

00:42:08,525 --> 00:42:09,818

for a good conscience."

00:42:10,527 --> 00:42:12,279

The Greek unfortunately goes to many

00:42:12,279 --> 00:42:15,157

ways. It has in the weight in the early

00:42:15,157 --> 00:42:17,243

church this concept of a

00:42:18,911 --> 00:42:22,331

pledge. It could be. It could be worked

00:42:22,331 --> 00:42:25,042

at. And so you see it in different

00:42:25,042 --> 00:42:25,876

translations of the Bible

00:42:25,918 --> 00:42:28,212

in different ways. In the original

00:42:28,212 --> 00:42:31,131

German, in the German version, the

00:42:31,131 --> 00:42:33,884

Luther's version, and the

00:42:33,884 --> 00:42:37,721

Froschauer Bible, it uses the word "bund,"

00:42:38,264 --> 00:42:40,641

which is like an oath, a

00:42:40,641 --> 00:42:43,102

pledge. So it gets to that Latin

00:42:43,477 --> 00:42:45,980

concept of what would do marriage and

00:42:45,980 --> 00:42:47,815

that kind of a thing. But

00:42:47,815 --> 00:42:50,401

nevertheless, it's an act that's

00:42:51,235 --> 00:42:53,821

obviously very significant. All right. So

00:42:53,821 --> 00:42:55,823

those are, there they

00:42:55,823 --> 00:42:57,700

are. There's the passages,

00:42:57,992 --> 00:43:01,996

or some of the most common with baptism.

00:43:02,621 --> 00:43:04,331

So any thoughts on that?

00:43:05,332 --> 00:43:08,210

I mean, again, and we'll just have to get

00:43:08,210 --> 00:43:09,878

into this, right? Where you

00:43:09,878 --> 00:43:11,505

would have Catholics reading

00:43:11,547 --> 00:43:13,215

that and come to a very different

00:43:13,215 --> 00:43:14,591

conclusion, or Orthodox, or

00:43:14,591 --> 00:43:16,218

Protestants, or Anabaptists,

00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:18,220

reading these scriptures and they're

00:43:18,220 --> 00:43:19,555

having radically different

00:43:19,555 --> 00:43:20,889

interpretations. Yeah. And

00:43:20,889 --> 00:43:22,891

I think that's the piece that this shows.

00:43:23,100 --> 00:43:23,726

And of course, we'll

00:43:23,726 --> 00:43:25,644

have to just get into that,

00:43:25,644 --> 00:43:26,520

you know, how those different

00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:27,438

interpretations come about.

00:43:27,771 --> 00:43:30,065

It is. Yeah. And it is a bit

00:43:30,399 --> 00:43:31,775

unfortunate. I don't know, unfortunate is

00:43:31,775 --> 00:43:33,485

not the right word, but it feels almost

00:43:33,485 --> 00:43:34,570

annoying. It's like,

00:43:35,195 --> 00:43:36,614

can't we just read the scripture and this

00:43:36,614 --> 00:43:37,823

is just, we can all agree,

00:43:37,823 --> 00:43:39,074

right? But it's not that way.

00:43:39,283 --> 00:43:40,743

Yeah. It's not because it's so loaded

00:43:40,743 --> 00:43:41,660

with anachronisms and

00:43:41,660 --> 00:43:42,661

everything. So, you know,

00:43:42,703 --> 00:43:44,413

one of the things that's healthy to do is

00:43:44,413 --> 00:43:45,664

to take the topic and say,

00:43:45,664 --> 00:43:46,123

okay, what does the scripture

00:43:46,206 --> 00:43:47,583

say? Like you're saying. Of course. You

00:43:47,583 --> 00:43:49,668

know, so then it seems

00:43:49,668 --> 00:43:51,003

like there's salvific language

00:43:51,003 --> 00:43:53,547

saying something about the baptism. Where

00:43:53,547 --> 00:43:55,257

people then get

00:43:55,257 --> 00:43:57,801

reductionist in this is, well, okay,

00:43:58,177 --> 00:44:01,096

so let's see what it says about

00:44:01,096 --> 00:44:05,100

confession of sin. Oh, it says in Romans

00:44:05,100 --> 00:44:06,060

chapter 10 that if you

00:44:06,060 --> 00:44:07,227

confess with your mouth and believe with

00:44:07,227 --> 00:44:09,730

your heart, you know, that

00:44:09,730 --> 00:44:12,191

Jesus rose from the dead,

00:44:12,191 --> 00:44:14,902

you shall be saved. So salvific language

00:44:14,902 --> 00:44:17,780

in that there's salvic languages in

00:44:17,780 --> 00:44:19,323

talking about the way

00:44:19,323 --> 00:44:22,034

we give alms and there's, there's even a

00:44:22,034 --> 00:44:23,327

strange salvific language

00:44:23,327 --> 00:44:24,620

verse about women bearing

00:44:24,620 --> 00:44:30,959

children. So, so, oh my. So yes, taking

00:44:30,959 --> 00:44:33,212

that face value, there's salvific

00:44:33,212 --> 00:44:34,546

language that seems to be

00:44:34,546 --> 00:44:35,881

surrounded, not seen that said

00:44:35,881 --> 00:44:38,133

surrounding the topic of baptism, but

00:44:38,133 --> 00:44:39,218

let's not take it in isolation

00:44:39,468 --> 00:44:42,346

in a reductionist view. Certainly the

00:44:42,346 --> 00:44:43,222

early church, and we'll

00:44:43,222 --> 00:44:44,890

see, and even the early

00:44:44,890 --> 00:44:47,559

Anabaptists saw this as the end of the

00:44:47,559 --> 00:44:49,812

beginning, the seal of what

00:44:49,812 --> 00:44:52,106

we have. The key difference is

00:44:52,272 --> 00:44:54,525

this, and it is so important, and I'll

00:44:54,525 --> 00:44:55,234

say it now that I'm

00:44:55,234 --> 00:44:55,984

going to keep saying it,

00:44:56,860 --> 00:45:01,156

there must be faith. As we've seen here,

00:45:01,156 --> 00:45:01,740

the prick to the

00:45:01,740 --> 00:45:02,741

heart, the believing in the,

00:45:03,283 --> 00:45:04,827

that even the early church and the early

00:45:04,827 --> 00:45:08,122

Anabaptists stress that without faith,

00:45:08,705 --> 00:45:11,166

sacraments without faith are meaningless,

00:45:11,875 --> 00:45:13,335

and that's going to be the fight here.

00:45:14,002 --> 00:45:15,796

So baptism regeneration sometimes is a

00:45:15,796 --> 00:45:16,964

phrase used, which then

00:45:16,964 --> 00:45:18,340

leads people to then accepting

00:45:18,340 --> 00:45:19,925

infant baptism and different things like

00:45:19,925 --> 00:45:21,593

that. Takes the idea that

00:45:21,593 --> 00:45:23,095

some sort of sacramental act

00:45:23,095 --> 00:45:26,515

itself, and I'll get into it, does it. I

00:45:26,515 --> 00:45:27,975

don't read that in the

00:45:27,975 --> 00:45:29,017

plain reading of scriptures,

00:45:29,017 --> 00:45:32,062

but we'll come to that. Okay. Okay. So

00:45:32,062 --> 00:45:32,896

communion. All right.

00:45:33,063 --> 00:45:34,898

Communion is also loaded. Definitely.

00:45:35,649 --> 00:45:37,818

It's probably my favorite. And so let's

00:45:37,818 --> 00:45:38,402

take some of the

00:45:38,402 --> 00:45:39,903

passages. I didn't, you know,

00:45:39,903 --> 00:45:41,071

do every single one of them, but here's

00:45:41,071 --> 00:45:41,780

just, I think a good

00:45:41,780 --> 00:45:43,824

collection. Matthew 26. This is,

00:45:43,824 --> 00:45:45,659

of course, Jesus is giving us the

00:45:45,659 --> 00:45:46,910

communion. And as they

00:45:46,910 --> 00:45:48,412

were eating, Jesus took bread,

00:45:48,412 --> 00:45:50,581

blessed and broke it and gave it to his

00:45:50,581 --> 00:45:52,416

disciples and said, take eat.

00:45:53,041 --> 00:45:56,044

This is my body. He then took

00:45:56,044 --> 00:45:58,881

the cup and gave thanks and gave it to

00:45:58,881 --> 00:46:00,799

them saying, drink from it, all of you,

00:46:00,799 --> 00:46:02,634

for this is my blood

00:46:03,010 --> 00:46:05,095

of the new covenant, which is shed for

00:46:05,095 --> 00:46:08,265

many for the remission of sins. So wow.

00:46:08,515 --> 00:46:10,559

Okay. Pretty strong.

00:46:10,684 --> 00:46:12,561

Yeah. I mean, I have to interject here

00:46:12,561 --> 00:46:13,729

because, because here's

00:46:13,729 --> 00:46:15,063

the, here's a criticism that

00:46:15,063 --> 00:46:17,065

people had actually with some previous

00:46:17,065 --> 00:46:18,192

interviews that we did with

00:46:18,192 --> 00:46:20,027

you. And I love the comments.

00:46:20,319 --> 00:46:21,945

This is, there's so much fun, right? You

00:46:21,945 --> 00:46:22,529

never know what you're

00:46:22,529 --> 00:46:24,156

going to run into. Definitely

00:46:24,281 --> 00:46:26,116

different Orthodox and Catholic, but

00:46:26,116 --> 00:46:26,867

there were some other

00:46:26,867 --> 00:46:28,660

denominations as well saying, wait a

00:46:28,660 --> 00:46:30,412

second, you're saying a simple

00:46:30,412 --> 00:46:31,830

interpretation. And out of this, we

00:46:31,830 --> 00:46:32,998

speak, right? Or, you know,

00:46:32,998 --> 00:46:34,291

a simple interpretation of scripture. The

00:46:34,291 --> 00:46:35,292

Bible says it. That's just

00:46:35,292 --> 00:46:36,960

what it is. Yeah. They're

00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,129

like, well, there's that verse, Take, eat.

00:46:39,588 --> 00:46:41,423

This is my body

00:46:41,423 --> 00:46:44,134

transubstantiation. There you go. You guys

00:46:44,134 --> 00:46:46,094

are wrong on communion. You Anabaptists

00:46:46,094 --> 00:46:48,263

are not actually taking scripture.

00:46:48,847 --> 00:46:50,140

Literally. This clearly,

00:46:50,682 --> 00:46:54,353

clearly says this. Um, this is my blood,

00:46:54,353 --> 00:46:56,146

you know? And so it's like, well, then

00:46:56,146 --> 00:46:57,397

you are breaking your

00:46:57,397 --> 00:47:00,025

own rules of interpreting scripture. That

00:47:00,025 --> 00:47:01,235

is the critique that they,

00:47:01,235 --> 00:47:02,486

that they laid you. There's

00:47:02,486 --> 00:47:03,862

another one I could add too. And I've

00:47:03,862 --> 00:47:04,988

heard, I've heard lots of

00:47:04,988 --> 00:47:06,031

different people say this,

00:47:06,031 --> 00:47:07,866

the Bible says it. I believe it. That

00:47:07,866 --> 00:47:10,035

settles it. The Bible clearly says this

00:47:10,035 --> 00:47:11,537

is my body. This is my

00:47:11,537 --> 00:47:14,706

blood. Oh boy. You know, you see what I'm

00:47:14,706 --> 00:47:15,999

saying, right? It's like, this is the,

00:47:15,999 --> 00:47:16,833

well, if you believe

00:47:16,833 --> 00:47:18,377

the Bible, literally, this is what it

00:47:18,377 --> 00:47:20,462

says. Now, maybe we don't

00:47:20,462 --> 00:47:21,672

want to go too, too far down that

00:47:21,672 --> 00:47:23,382

street, but I'm, I'm sure that's where

00:47:23,382 --> 00:47:24,258

people's minds are going to

00:47:24,258 --> 00:47:25,676

be going. And it's well said,

00:47:26,051 --> 00:47:27,970

the part that I'm going to argue that the

00:47:27,970 --> 00:47:29,346

early Anabaptists had on

00:47:29,346 --> 00:47:30,264

this and the early church

00:47:30,681 --> 00:47:33,725

is a reductionist to what exactly Jesus

00:47:33,725 --> 00:47:35,769

is pointing to and the act of what

00:47:35,769 --> 00:47:36,937

they're doing there in the

00:47:36,937 --> 00:47:39,815

communion. Is it merely in this bread? Is

00:47:39,815 --> 00:47:41,233

there something bigger in

00:47:41,233 --> 00:47:43,318

the gathered people of, of,

00:47:43,318 --> 00:47:44,945

that are surrounding the, the Eucharist

00:47:44,945 --> 00:47:47,447

celebration there? And that's really

00:47:47,447 --> 00:47:49,241

important, but taking as

00:47:49,241 --> 00:47:51,785

it is, there it is. You're right. Yeah.

00:47:52,286 --> 00:47:53,078

And the Roman Catholic is

00:47:53,078 --> 00:47:53,870

like, see, there you go.

00:47:54,037 --> 00:47:55,747

Transubstantiation. Yeah. Yeah. Obviously

00:47:55,747 --> 00:47:56,790

there's, I'm way

00:47:56,790 --> 00:47:58,250

oversimplifying their position,

00:47:58,250 --> 00:48:00,127

but I'm, I'm quite sure this someone in

00:48:00,127 --> 00:48:00,919

the comments is going to

00:48:00,919 --> 00:48:01,712

probably use that verse.

00:48:02,045 --> 00:48:02,879

Well, seriously, I mean, if you take

00:48:02,879 --> 00:48:05,132

this, then the council of Trent will

00:48:05,132 --> 00:48:06,300

argue to the point that

00:48:06,300 --> 00:48:08,802

you can literally worship the same

00:48:08,802 --> 00:48:09,761

worship you would give to

00:48:09,761 --> 00:48:10,804

God in heaven, the bread that's

00:48:10,804 --> 00:48:13,682

sitting on the table. To rewind to 1553,

00:48:13,682 --> 00:48:15,183

where Simon is burned at

00:48:15,183 --> 00:48:17,978

the stake. He didn't bow the

00:48:17,978 --> 00:48:20,105

knee to the sacraments. Well, in this

00:48:20,105 --> 00:48:21,732

case, the communion bread, et cetera,

00:48:21,732 --> 00:48:22,608

coming down the street,

00:48:22,983 --> 00:48:24,484

because he's like, that's not actually

00:48:24,484 --> 00:48:26,486

literally Jesus. And then

00:48:26,486 --> 00:48:28,196

I'm guessing, I didn't have to

00:48:28,196 --> 00:48:29,323

read the court records, but I'm assuming

00:48:29,323 --> 00:48:30,282

they probably used this

00:48:30,282 --> 00:48:31,199

verse or something similar,

00:48:31,199 --> 00:48:32,618

say, wait a second, this is actually the

00:48:32,618 --> 00:48:34,703

body of Christ and that's not

00:48:34,703 --> 00:48:35,704

good. So we're going to burn

00:48:35,704 --> 00:48:38,248

you for it. And exactly. And one of the

00:48:38,248 --> 00:48:39,041

questions you're going to see

00:48:39,041 --> 00:48:41,043

is really something to get my

00:48:41,043 --> 00:48:41,960

head around. And you're going to say

00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:45,422

this, so does any body, any group of

00:48:45,422 --> 00:48:47,257

people, heretics or whatever,

00:48:47,966 --> 00:48:51,053

celebrating the communion, do they have

00:48:51,053 --> 00:48:53,889

the real presence? Oh, whoa.

00:48:53,889 --> 00:48:54,723

Okay. See, it went from being

00:48:54,723 --> 00:48:57,184

simple to complicated. So you take the

00:48:57,184 --> 00:48:58,060

Gnostics, let's say they're

00:48:58,060 --> 00:48:59,311

having communion, is that,

00:48:59,770 --> 00:49:01,521

there are the early churches arguing, no.

00:49:02,314 --> 00:49:05,150

See, I, yeah. And I do see

00:49:05,150 --> 00:49:06,693

the people that are leaving

00:49:06,693 --> 00:49:09,029

the comments and things, having somewhat

00:49:09,029 --> 00:49:11,073

of a valid critique that says, well,

00:49:11,073 --> 00:49:11,740

simple interpretation

00:49:12,824 --> 00:49:16,119

is oversimplifying the challenges of this

00:49:16,119 --> 00:49:17,037

passage. Okay. Fair

00:49:17,037 --> 00:49:18,872

enough. Do you think that's fair?

00:49:19,122 --> 00:49:22,459

Right. I think, well, yeah. Now I will

00:49:22,459 --> 00:49:23,919

say, I think there is

00:49:23,919 --> 00:49:27,255

a special anointing on

00:49:28,590 --> 00:49:34,596

a simple faith that I'm actually jealous

00:49:34,596 --> 00:49:38,809

of. Okay. Yeah. So, you

00:49:38,809 --> 00:49:39,851

know, you think through the

00:49:39,893 --> 00:49:42,354

centuries and people that are just

00:49:42,354 --> 00:49:44,856

unencumbered by all these theological

00:49:44,856 --> 00:49:46,400

debates and they're just

00:49:46,441 --> 00:49:49,319

receiving the word of God and walking in

00:49:49,319 --> 00:49:50,487

faithfulness and these types

00:49:50,487 --> 00:49:52,197

of things, I don't know. I think

00:49:52,197 --> 00:49:54,866

the Lord has a lot more blessing upon

00:49:54,866 --> 00:49:56,660

these people than all of us trying to,

00:49:57,202 --> 00:49:58,120

who are wranglings. And

00:49:58,203 --> 00:49:59,871

I'm wrestling through this my whole life

00:49:59,871 --> 00:50:03,125

in a very real way. I have to, and I'm

00:50:03,125 --> 00:50:04,167

trying to minister to

00:50:04,209 --> 00:50:06,294

other people who are also wrestling with

00:50:06,294 --> 00:50:07,754

that. So I feel, I feel like

00:50:07,754 --> 00:50:10,215

it's worthy, but yes, I think

00:50:10,298 --> 00:50:12,634

the end of the day though, Christ told us

00:50:12,634 --> 00:50:13,635

just to receive this as a

00:50:13,635 --> 00:50:15,137

child, all these things.

00:50:15,721 --> 00:50:18,473

And I think that might be the core of

00:50:18,473 --> 00:50:19,975

where you are bringing

00:50:19,975 --> 00:50:21,935

something really important when you

00:50:21,935 --> 00:50:25,564

keep emphasizing the taking scripture, it

00:50:25,564 --> 00:50:26,940

says this and we live it

00:50:26,940 --> 00:50:29,151

like that is fairly simple,

00:50:29,151 --> 00:50:30,610

I guess you could say it's in some ways.

00:50:30,819 --> 00:50:32,904

And there is something really important

00:50:32,904 --> 00:50:33,697

to be said for that,

00:50:33,739 --> 00:50:35,282

even though, yeah, there's definitely

00:50:35,282 --> 00:50:37,617

passages like this, you know, that...

00:50:37,617 --> 00:50:39,494

Oh, so much thousand years of...

00:50:39,494 --> 00:50:41,621

Yeah, it gets a lot more complicated. I

00:50:41,621 --> 00:50:44,332

do think one example here

00:50:44,332 --> 00:50:46,334

recently, I work with a mission

00:50:46,376 --> 00:50:48,587

group and they reach out to unreached

00:50:48,587 --> 00:50:50,338

people groups in West Africa. They've

00:50:50,338 --> 00:50:51,840

never heard of the Bible,

00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:53,300

they've never heard of Jesus. They have

00:50:53,300 --> 00:50:55,677

zero context. And one

00:50:55,677 --> 00:50:57,012

village got an audio Bible that's

00:50:57,012 --> 00:50:59,306

super remote in the jungle and a new

00:50:59,306 --> 00:51:00,307

church was planted there. And

00:51:00,307 --> 00:51:02,017

they gave that audio Bible to

00:51:02,058 --> 00:51:05,937

a different village and let them have it

00:51:05,937 --> 00:51:06,730

for a while. Hey, you

00:51:06,730 --> 00:51:07,689

should listen to this book.

00:51:08,398 --> 00:51:09,357

The rest of the village are having

00:51:09,357 --> 00:51:10,358

church, all these things,

00:51:10,358 --> 00:51:11,151

and they have their first

00:51:11,151 --> 00:51:13,945

baptism service. And suddenly, a whole

00:51:13,945 --> 00:51:15,238

other village out of the

00:51:15,238 --> 00:51:16,865

jungle shows up to be baptized

00:51:16,990 --> 00:51:18,533

and they're very confused. Who are these

00:51:18,533 --> 00:51:19,451

people? We've never seen

00:51:19,451 --> 00:51:21,036

them. And this other village

00:51:21,036 --> 00:51:22,746

said, "We're that village that got the

00:51:22,746 --> 00:51:24,372

Bible from you. We've been

00:51:24,372 --> 00:51:26,041

listening to it continuously

00:51:26,374 --> 00:51:28,543

and we all became Christians and we're

00:51:28,543 --> 00:51:29,377

here to be baptized."

00:51:29,377 --> 00:51:29,795

There you go.

00:51:30,045 --> 00:51:31,922

And so it talks about this talk about a

00:51:31,922 --> 00:51:33,673

very simple faith.

00:51:33,882 --> 00:51:37,052

They've never heard of any of

00:51:37,052 --> 00:51:39,262

these debates. They have no concept of

00:51:39,262 --> 00:51:40,138

those things. They really

00:51:40,138 --> 00:51:42,015

frankly don't care, but they

00:51:42,516 --> 00:51:45,101

were able to see from simple listening of

00:51:45,101 --> 00:51:46,144

Scripture. They're

00:51:46,144 --> 00:51:46,978

actually illiterate. They

00:51:46,978 --> 00:51:48,355

can't even read, right? So just listening

00:51:48,355 --> 00:51:50,732

on a speaker to say, "We

00:51:50,732 --> 00:51:51,691

believe." And they went

00:51:51,691 --> 00:51:53,026

through the whole confession. "You know

00:51:53,026 --> 00:51:54,402

this? Yeah, these are real

00:51:54,402 --> 00:51:55,695

Christians. They have a real

00:51:55,737 --> 00:51:57,280

faith in Christ." And so they baptized

00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:59,324

the whole village. And it was just this

00:51:59,324 --> 00:52:00,700

beautiful of like...

00:52:01,451 --> 00:52:03,745

So when you say the simple

00:52:03,745 --> 00:52:05,705

interpretation, there is a

00:52:05,705 --> 00:52:07,123

beauty there in that simplicity.

00:52:08,500 --> 00:52:10,460

While we also need to be careful that we

00:52:10,460 --> 00:52:11,878

don't overstretch that

00:52:11,878 --> 00:52:16,007

and disregard and be like,

00:52:16,007 --> 00:52:19,219

"Oh, these conversations about this is my

00:52:19,219 --> 00:52:21,346

body. How do you take that? Those

00:52:21,346 --> 00:52:22,389

conversations do matter."

00:52:22,973 --> 00:52:24,599

Exactly. But that's simplicity of faith.

00:52:24,599 --> 00:52:25,976

You were saying it very well. I think...

00:52:26,309 --> 00:52:27,269

Yeah, well, hopefully that makes sense.

00:52:27,269 --> 00:52:29,479

You're saying it perfectly right. I have,

00:52:29,479 --> 00:52:30,689

to be honest, I've really

00:52:30,689 --> 00:52:32,399

been very blessed by reading

00:52:32,858 --> 00:52:35,277

guys like Gregory Dix and the Shape of

00:52:35,277 --> 00:52:35,819

the Liturgy and the

00:52:35,819 --> 00:52:37,320

different deep things about the...

00:52:38,196 --> 00:52:43,368

However, when I see a faithful servant,

00:52:43,785 --> 00:52:45,495

A man or woman serving

00:52:45,495 --> 00:52:47,330

the church in Christ and

00:52:47,747 --> 00:52:49,708

walking through the mysteries of these

00:52:49,708 --> 00:52:51,042

sacraments in a beautiful

00:52:51,042 --> 00:52:53,628

way, I'm like, "Wow, that."

00:52:57,465 --> 00:52:59,801

So that's how I've thought about it. And I

00:52:59,801 --> 00:53:00,635

was like, maybe that adds

00:53:00,635 --> 00:53:01,887

some color to this picture of

00:53:01,887 --> 00:53:03,054

just like that. Yeah, that's simple

00:53:03,054 --> 00:53:04,514

faith. You do listen to Scripture and you

00:53:04,514 --> 00:53:05,599

do live what it says.

00:53:05,932 --> 00:53:08,059

While also saying, "These are things that

00:53:08,059 --> 00:53:09,519

could be really complicated

00:53:09,519 --> 00:53:10,770

and really loaded and that's

00:53:11,021 --> 00:53:12,147

also okay." There's a

00:53:12,147 --> 00:53:13,023

depth there. I don't...

00:53:13,023 --> 00:53:16,693

There is. And the reason I'm saddened by

00:53:16,693 --> 00:53:19,446

people who are attracted to

00:53:19,446 --> 00:53:22,490

reductionist and sectarian

00:53:22,824 --> 00:53:25,160

presentations of the sacraments, trying

00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:26,202

to pull people out of

00:53:26,202 --> 00:53:27,412

their churches into the Greek

00:53:27,412 --> 00:53:29,748

Orthodoxy or Roman Catholic, and they're

00:53:29,748 --> 00:53:32,167

losing the whole essence,

00:53:32,167 --> 00:53:33,209

which I'm going to try to show

00:53:33,209 --> 00:53:36,254

here, of what was being said in this

00:53:36,254 --> 00:53:38,340

communion time here of us

00:53:38,340 --> 00:53:39,758

manifesting the people of Christ.

00:53:40,300 --> 00:53:42,594

And they end up with this sort of false

00:53:42,594 --> 00:53:44,804

sacramental concept of all

00:53:44,804 --> 00:53:46,348

these things and lose Christ.

00:53:47,766 --> 00:53:50,018

I got it. Yeah, you get so down into the

00:53:50,018 --> 00:53:52,646

weeds, you miss the whole point. You miss Jesus.

00:53:52,646 --> 00:53:53,980

And that's exactly what's happening here.

00:53:53,980 --> 00:53:55,231

You're going to see that this is what the

00:53:55,231 --> 00:53:56,399

early Anabaptists are arguing.

00:53:57,067 --> 00:53:58,485

And that kind of goes back to that,

00:53:58,485 --> 00:54:01,237

baliff, who just can't handle

00:54:01,237 --> 00:54:02,113

what they had to do when they

00:54:02,113 --> 00:54:03,573

burned Simon at the stake. They're like,

00:54:03,573 --> 00:54:04,574