Nina: [00:00:00] I'm Nina Endrst.

Anna: [00:00:05] I'm Anna Toonk.

Nina: [00:00:06] Welcome to how to be human.

Anna: [00:00:08] A podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humanness.

Nina: [00:00:11] In this episode, Anna and I discuss foundations, how we define our roots, and why it all matters.

Anna: [00:00:17] Take a seat, clear your mind, and let's chat.

Nina: [00:00:26] Hello, everyone. We're back.

Anna: [00:00:29] Maybe better than ever. I don't know. Possibly.

Nina: [00:00:33] You be the judge, but if you have a review that's unkind, just email us.

Anna: [00:00:39] If you could keep it between us.

Nina: [00:00:43] I don't care what people think. I just don't want it on Apple Podcasts, please. We're trying to like, you know, make this work, guys.

Anna: [00:00:50] We'll probably talk about astrology at some point, but something you should know about both of us is we have strong Aries placements, so it would be our preference to control the narrative. And so, if you could email it to us.

Nina: [00:01:02] And be first always. So if that, if you could arrange that, Madison Square Garden, we'd love that. I think we are mostly better than ever. Although, I have to tell you. In the world's smallest problem area, not actual problem area as in body, but if it rains for one more fucking day, I am going to crawl into a fucking hole, Anna.

Anna: [00:01:26] And not come out?

Nina: [00:01:27] I can't think. It's like, I feel like someone's pressing on my brain. Are these allergies? Is this being an adult?

Anna: [00:01:35] You might have allergies because lots of people who don't think they do actually do. And apparently, thanks to climate change...

Nina: [00:01:42] Have you guys heard about this? Have you guys heard about it?

Anna: [00:01:49] Maybe you haven't heard, but the earth is dying.

Nina: [00:01:52] Yeah, science is real, you guys.

You heard it here first. I'm at my mom's place. My mom has a really lovely house in... You know, maybe I'll protect your privacy and not say where, but anyway...

Did y'all want latitude and longitude?

There will be a Google maps link in this episode.

Anna: [00:02:08] You can just follow me. I'll share my location.

Nina: [00:02:11] I just live in the state. Like you can't find me.

Anna: [00:02:14] No, that's so funny. I don't care. And I should, but I'm here basically to help tend her garden while she's in Italy. And, I mean, well, it was like she has a pool.

So I was like, yeah, mom, like, if you need help, AKA, uh, can I go take a resonance in your home? But, uh, it's been disgusting all day and raining and it makes also the internet not work. And it just makes me feel like a really bratty teen where I'm like "it's not what I wanted."

Nina: [00:02:42] We realize how ridiculous these conversations are.

Anna: [00:02:44] Yeah, it's not an actual problem.

Nina: [00:02:46] It's not. We're very aware of that.

Okay, so what are we talking about today, now that we're finally here?

Anna: [00:02:52] Well, we're talking about roots. So before we talk about why we're going to talk about that, I wanted to give you a definition of it.

Nina: [00:03:00] Please do.

Anna: [00:03:00] So as a plural noun.

Nina: [00:03:03] Oh, it's a plural noun.

Anna: [00:03:04] Well, I have a few for you.

I have it as a plural noun and then I have it as a verb, so it's a little bit. Stick with me for a minute here, y'all.

Nina: [00:03:12] Everyone just collectively fell asleep.

Anna: [00:03:15] Aw, come on. I know there has to be some nerds like me. The part of a plant, which attaches it to the ground or to a support. Typically underground, conveying water and nourishment to the rest of the plant via numerous branches and fibers.

What about if you're not a plant? The basic cause source or origin of something. As a verb, it's a cause to grow roots, to establish deeply and firmly.

And now something we were talking about the topic of this is we couldn't decide. Sometimes it's like, we just talk at each other as if we're doing like spoken word poetry.

We're like roots. The roots. Family. Foundation. Roots. And like, we'll be like, do we say the same word four times?

Nina: [00:04:01] And I start  to beatbox over that.

Anna: [00:04:05] I was happy though when I Googled roots, the first thing that came up was the band. And I was like, fuck yeah. But then foundation because it's like essentially all these things I think about when you and I are talking about, we mean them somewhat interchangeably.

But so foundation is either the lowest load-bearing part of a building typically below ground level or an underlying basis or principle.

Now I don't know about you, I wouldn't have thought of roots having the word cause like the basic cause associated with it. And with foundation, I wouldn't have thought of it as a principal, which sounds weird.

Nina: [00:04:44] No, I agree about the principle.

Anna: [00:04:46] So when you think of the word roots or foundation, what do you immediately think of? What comes to mind for you?

Nina: [00:04:55] Ancestors and feet.

Anna: [00:04:58] Yeah.

Nina: [00:04:59] I mean, I work with the body a lot, obviously. Also when I feel like, well, this happens a lot when I practice Reiki on people and their feet. I remember one client, we laugh about it obviously. But the first time I went to go work on her legs and her feet, I was like, so it's very dead around here. I was like, it's very cold and dead. Um, but that it was so she was so detached, and obviously, we had a banter at that point. I wasn't just like nice to meet you, Sarah, you're dead in the roots.

Anna: [00:05:30] You're like, hey ol' dead feet.

Nina: [00:05:32] That's a way to get them coming back for more.

Anna: [00:05:34] You like the lowest load-bearing part of your building.

Nina: [00:05:38] I think you already know that I really can't mess with load-bearing. There's just something wrong about that.

But so roots. Ancestors. Feet. Yeah, connection to earth. That's what, that's what I think of when I think of roots. Health. Like really safety comes to mind.

I went to the health food store today to get ice cream with my child, which is big for us to leave the house and I was driving and I was like, wow. It's so hard sometimes to feel safe when you don't feel well or you don't feel grounded. I couldn't wait to get home cause I was just like, I'm just not in the mindset to be out.

I think of roots, I think of either in and out of balance, right. In balance, feeling safe, feeling grounded, feeling like you're eating enough. You have a home. You have family of whatever kind. Unbalanced, I think of, you know, some anxiety, a little malnourished, however that shows up for you or like too nourished in some ways, right? So just, yeah. That's how I think about how do you think of it? What's your definition?

Anna: [00:06:40] I would definitely describe myself as too nourished. But I think of, yeah, I think, I think of family of origin. I think of like, where do you come from and what is the legacy of that? And then I do think no, I mean, I wouldn't, I wouldn't pretend to be a Yogi in any way. I mean, I do the yoga, but I think of the root chakra, and I think of like when I was first sort of getting into. I'm sorry. I mean, the Chakra.

Nina: [00:07:15] By the way we're not making fun of the actual word. We're making fun of the white girls who, who say it like that. And I'll, I'll take full responsibility for that. And we're making fun of you.

Anna: [00:07:25] Yeah, we are. We are, um, you can say, you can just say chakra. It's fine. Because also a lot of you make it sound like you're speaking Espanol and then it becomes more confusing. Cause you're rolling your r and I don't know why. We're not haters. I'm mostly confused.

Yeah. I'm mostly just confused. I'm not hating. I just want to be like, well also, like, I like to say words in a fun way. So some of it too is I'm jealous. I want to say it that way too. It's fun.

But, um, I remember when I was first getting more into spirituality and like learning kind of what things were and like, what are the chakras? Like, what is all of this stuff? You know? And so one was talking about the root chakra and they were like, if you don't feel safe or the way you came into being in, came into the world like you didn't feel safe, that's all that's going on and governing you. That's it. And even if you don't think of it that way, like, even if you're not walking around going, like, I don't feel safe.

And at that point in my life, I was like, oh. What is safety? Like I don't even know like what are roots? You know, I grew up moving a lot. I grew up in a, it wasn't like my home was strangely chaotic. My mom did a lot to provide stability, but my dad did a lot to destabilize it.

Nina: [00:08:48] They were a team.

Anna: [00:08:49] They were a team. Yin and yang, you know?

I think what's tricky and like, in conversation with my mom sometimes, like, you know, I'll be like right, right mom. But what you need to remember is I was a child. Like you were an adult, but I was a child. So you have to like, remember. A kid doesn't know that some things aren't bad, you know what I mean?

Like a kid doesn't always know like that. My dad worked a lot of hours, so sometimes it was like, is everything okay? Like why does he have to work on these hours? You know? And it wasn't just like your dad's ambitious. It was like, well, you as a kid, it's like, you equate like working, working a lot with money and like, or like needing money or something.

So I was like, are we cool? You know. So. I hadn't really thought about it until I was like, in my thirties what is safety? What makes me feel safe? And an interesting thing to me in regards to like, when I wish I could remember to credit them, who gave me these morsels because they really did affect me in regards to the root chakra, but they were talking about also in terms of money or not just money, but resources.

That if you don't feel safe and you haven't figured out how to feel safe in your, your life, your body, your energy, that like you also can't really keep anything. That, you know, money won't stay with you. Maybe even opportunity, homes, or something. It's like, things will feel really transient and like things are being taken from you.

And that really got me because I have decent money luck. But at that point, it was so hard for me to like keep resources in my hands, you know, like whether it was a connection or was like certain gigs or whatever. I think at that point, honestly, I think I was still in television and wasn't really doing spiritual work yet.

And I was like, huh. And working in production was a way of like living my trauma. It was like, oh, you're not good at taking care of yourself, how about a career that centers that you know? Yeah, exactly. It's actually the only way you succeed at it.

Nina: [00:10:55] You get a promotion.

Anna: [00:10:57] Yeah. So it was this weird process. In thinking about like what we're going to talk about today, it also really struck me how often that definition has changed for me. And I'm curious, like how do you, I kind of think nothing matters if we don't feel safe. So I'm curious how you cultivate safety for yourself?

Nina: [00:11:30] I love that question.

That is my focus every single day. Since the day I realized that it had to be my focus every single day.

Anna: [00:11:40] Yeah. And it's, and it's a practice. Like you said, it's your focus every day cause I think it changes.

Nina: [00:11:46] The practice. And yeah, I feel like the more people I work with, the more I realize, you know, how these incredibly intelligent adults with super impressive careers, not that you need that, but very highly educated people are like, oh yeah, my roots. Oh yeah, safety. Oh yeah, I didn't get the connection I needed from my parents or I was, you know, left at this place a lot or I wasn't held this way. There's so much in the root and there is nothing without it.

There really isn't, there's nothing sustainable without it. There's nothing that, you know, we can build upon. So everything I do in my personal life and my professional life is about building from the ground up. Whether it's Soul, whether it's a friendship, whether it's, you know, like making my bed. I mean, like everything, it starts with the roots, right? With the first step.

So how do I cultivate it? You know, I'm in conversation with myself a lot. As an only child, I think that I talk to myself so much. Like Milo, the other day, my son, was like, are you talking to yourself? I'm like, yeah, I am. There's nothing wrong with that.

So, and maybe he'll be an only child. I don't know he might not, but the point being, I try to talk myself through things where in the past I would just keep them in because I had no one to talk to about, you know, these things with, or I didn't feel comfortable. And I'll be like, I think you're feeling anxious because, I think you're, you know, feeling that in your body because, and I try to be in conversation to feel my body.

Like sometimes when I think a lot of people will feel this like you start to detach from your body and you'll be like, is that my arm? Like whose arm is that? This, this like floating thing. It's just like out there. And I know that when I'm on my phone too much, I start to like feel and see the separation between me and my body.

And that's when I am like, okay, I need to put down the artificial device, or I need to like come back into my body, lay on the ground. So it's a constant conversation. Feeling like really in my body and yeah, that's how I, I try. And softness. Like it needs, my environment needs to be quiet. As quiet as possible with, you know, having fun and then soft. Like, like lighting really like.

Anna: [00:14:14] With a little fun y'all like.

Nina: [00:14:15] I need dimmers. Yeah. Just like a sparkle. Okay. And just like a little light sparkle. I want to have fun, I don't want to be rigid, but I need, like, my sensitivities are a part of me and I can't pretend that they don't exist anymore.

Anna: [00:14:29] Oh man. Isn't that... you want to talk about that nugget?

Nina: [00:14:34] Seven hours later Anna and Nina finish the podcast.

Anna: [00:14:38] My God. That's, I mean, you know, that's a realization that's been exploding my brain lately where I'm like, what if I just work with who I am? You know, like crazy idea.

But in hearing what you're saying, what's interesting to me is a lot of that, to me is about being grounded.

And so I would wonder does being grounded make you feel safe?

Nina: [00:15:00] Yeah, honestly money. Like for a long time money wasn't something. I don't remember how my parents talked about money, but I remember obviously we were okay. But I don't remember, like, I think they talked about it in a way that made me feel like they were always worried about it, even though we were okay.

So I was always confused. And then when I started to realize, like, what was actually going on, I was like, oh, well, my mom was like a super saver. And my dad, well...

Anna: [00:15:30] Was maybe not?

Nina: [00:15:33] Not so much.

Anna: [00:15:34] That's yeah, it's interesting. Cause it's like I think money is incredibly boring, but I also come from a family that, you know, I come from a wealthy family.

And so part of why I find it boring is because a lot of people think it makes them cool or it gives them a personality, and I will never ever deny the impact that money has. I mean, when I say, I think money is boring I don't mean it like ugh money.

Nina: [00:15:59] Oh my god, I have way too much of it.

Anna: [00:16:01] I just have so much money I'm bored by it... Like, I don't mean it like that at all. I think I think capitalism is boring. You know, like I think this like...

Nina: [00:16:08] And killing us all.

Anna: [00:16:10] Like this blind desire, just, I think that's what I find boring. Like this blind desire to just acquire, you know, for the sake of acquiring, like, or accumulate just to accumulate. Like isn't interesting to me. Like when people like use it for stuff or like, you know, I think it's great, but like, it's confusing as a kid.

Like I think, you know, cause it's something that I think children can get like we see it happening. Like you see your parents paying for things or you like, it's something that I wonder why we don't talk to kids more about it.

Nina: [00:16:44] Well, that too. I'm curious how you feel about this as someone who did come from money, like you didn't have to worry about that, right? Like you knew.

Anna: [00:16:55] So when my dad died, he had no will. Had a loan outstanding, all this stuff. So we had nothing. And granted, my mom had worked, but like, not really.

I mean, she was a housewife, you know, and I don't mean any I think it's insane we don't pay moms. So like she had never had a credit card that was just hers. She had no like...

Nina: [00:17:16] Financial independence?

Anna: [00:17:17] Thank you. I mean, I, we, we used to, I mean, I probably shouldn't put this on a podcast, but so be it, here we go.

Nina: [00:17:24] My parents aren't allowed to listen.

Anna: [00:17:26] I haven't. I mean, if my mom can find podcasts, then...

Nina: [00:17:29] I know my mom didn't know what they were either. I was like, are you joking?

Anna: [00:17:32] Yeah. Yeah. Um, so when my father died, while we were trying to figure that out, and like was my grandfather going to help us? Or, you know, how long was it going to take to probate thing?

I mean, we didn't settle his estate for over two years, so nothing for two years. His checking account, everything frozen.

Nina: [00:17:51] What?

Anna: [00:17:52] Yeah. You know, so we used to put my brother on the phone with Amex to pretend to be my dad. And we would feed him answers

Nina: [00:18:04] Oh my god.

Anna: [00:18:04] To keep that credit card open. Cause we were living off of it.

Nina: [00:18:08] How did that, how can they just not give you your parent's money?

Anna: [00:18:14] Cause they're like, sure you say you're this but are you? And then we lost our visas and the British government was like, sure, you can have your visas back, but you need to put like a quarter of a million dollars in British stocks and stuff. And we're like, yeah, okay.

And but also like my dad made a good living. Like my dad did well, he was a forensic accountant, but it was weird. There were all these games. The thing is about people with money is, and that was when I talk about it in the context of my family, it's my grandfather, my mom's dad. There's lots of games. My grandfather used to ask, like, do you need any money?

If you said, yes, you got nothing. If, if you said, no, no, I'm fine, Granddad he gave you a hundred dollars. Like there were all these games and all this stuff. So it wasn't like freely given. If anything you felt like, I mean... Listen. Cry me a river. I grew up with wealth. I'm not, but I'm just saying, I don't think people understand what it's actually like sometimes.

It's not like, you know, it wasn't freely given, I guess. You had to dance. I mean, the benefit of it was that like, when the rug got pulled out from under us, my grandfather freely said to my mom, like, what do you need? Like, I will help you. But it did come with strings. It was a sudden like, oh, why are their schools so expensive?  I think that that was a huge factor for me and being very independent.

I haven't really accepted family wealth until I'm just going to be honest, I have a trust fund and that was kind of it. But I've wanted to make my own money because like money's not interesting enough or motivating enough to me to dance for it.

I think the dance, and the not knowing if you were going to get it right or wrong or, you know, like, or the begging or whatever. I was like, fuck that. I'll just make my own. Like, I'll just have independence. But I think that made me also, it was like an overcorrection in a way. Of this like hyper independence and also not true, you know?

Like I feel like I kind of have a foot in both worlds, you know, like. Who I am, maybe on paper looks different than who and how I live my life. And I think if there had been less maybe games or less.

You know, my father came from nothing was like, I refuse to raise spoiled brats. He's like, I refuse, you know? So like if we wanted something, you know, it was like, okay, great. Like you can do these chores or whatever. But it was still like confusing and my dad kind of liked being the good time parent.

So as much as my parents were then, like when we moved to England, they were doing debit cards already and they weren't doing that in the states yet. And my dad was like, okay, we're going to set up bank accounts for you guys. We're going to get you debit cards and I'm going to give you an allowance and that's it.

You don't get any other money, you know, for the month or week. I can't remember. And then he would immediately give us more money. And my mom was just like...

Nina: [00:21:14] Did you learn the lesson?

Anna: [00:21:15] No, no. I learned to like, I mean, it's like when it comes to money, it's like, I really didn't learn anything until I became self-employed. And was like, oh...

Nina: [00:21:24] When do we talk about it? And even with this, right, we didn't set out to talk about money at all, but I really feel like there's so little conversation about money, especially with good people. Like rich dicks are always talking about fucking money. That's all they talk about. It's so boring to your point of like, it's not a personality, it's not doesn't mean shit.

It can also be taken from you. And then what do you have? It's not literally nothing. You have nothing. But if we taught this like in school, did you have any education about how to manage your money or like earning or exchange? Right. And as entrepreneurs, like that's when I learned about it. I certainly didn't learn about it to getting my paycheck every week in the city.

I was like, okay, well, I guess I'm just going to go spend all this and then I'll wait for the next one. And it was just this constant loop of anxiety of like, can I pay my rent? Can I pay for that expensive dinner that all my friends want to go to that I can't afford? I don't have someone to save me. One of my most embarrassing and humbling moments was getting my credit card declined for laundry.

Anna: [00:22:34] Ohhhh.

Nina: [00:22:35] Dude. And of course, I lived across the street from the place and my mom was waiting outside and my Mom is like very responsible financially. I was young. I was in my early twenties and I was like, oh Jesus Christ. I got, I guess this shit isn't free. I got to go get it together. But I think now that I have like a really good handle on it, it's financial health.

It makes me feel physically better in my body because I know that if something ever happened, I could take care of my family for an extended period of time. And I'm, you know, that helps. That being said, we're also living in a place where if you take one ambulance ride and you know, a couple other things, like you're shit out of luck.

Anna: [00:23:17] Yeah. You and I were talking about this the other day because I went to the doctor and I belong to One Medical. I highly recommend them, but

Nina: [00:23:28] This is not sponsored.

Anna: [00:23:29] One day. One Medical get at me. Um,

I mean for real though. And if you want a really cool doctor, like One Medical does, uh, Zahra Fernandez. She's amazing. Anyway, I was telling you like, part of my loyalty to them is that when I didn't have health insurance for a year, because I, when I went, self-employed like I missed enrollment. Like, I didn't know how it all worked.

I thought that that was just like a corporate thing. I didn't know that that's just insurance, you know. And I forgot what happened. I think because I was permalance I didn't get Cobra. Anyway. It was just like,

Nina: [00:24:04] You didn't have insurance for a whole year.

Anna: [00:24:06] A whole year. Yeah.

Nina: [00:24:07] That was terrifying.

Anna: [00:24:09] Yeah, I was, and I nearly. I remember one day I was on the corner of 14th and 7th Avenue had walked out of Duane Reade as one does, I was probably buying some seasonal candy. And I nearly,

Nina: [00:24:25] I dropped in for some candy corn and then made my way to the street.

Anna: [00:24:30] It's true. And I had stepped a little bit, and I had headphones in and I had stepped a little bit off the curb as one does. Cause why wait for the crosswalk, you know, and nearly got hit by a bus, and that's when I was like, you dumb bitch. You have to get insurance because you almost just got yourself hit.

Nina: [00:24:51] Well, you wouldn't have needed it then.

Anna: [00:24:54] Bye-bye you're gone.

Nina: [00:24:55] You would have been flattened.

Anna: [00:24:56] It was really like, you know the meme of the dog in the room on fire that's just like, this is fine. I'm going to send it to you, but it's a cartoon.

Well, I think I'm the living embodiment of that meme, cause so often I'm like, this is fine when it's on in flames, you know, I'm like, I don't have health insurance, but it's okay. Cause it's a thing and I'll be okay for a year. I had cancer, y'all. Like, I cannot be without health insurance.

Nina: [00:25:21] Nobody can. Nobody can.

Anna: [00:25:22] Well, nobody can. And if you are, I'm really sorry. I get it. It's expensive. It's probably one of my largest expenses.

Nina: [00:25:29] Figure out how to get on Medicaid.

Anna: [00:25:31] No shame in Medicaid. I have a ton of friends who are on it because insurance is so incredible, like incredibly dumb in this country. And so I had to have a bunch of blood work done and One Medical charge me cost. They knew I didn't have insurance. They charged me as little as they possibly could. So yeah, really loyal to them forever and ever because of that.

But recently I was at the doctor and, you know, she was just asking me different histories about things. Again, I keep coming back to like, with roots of like, if you think about it, literally like a plant and you know, what are we, if not really sophisticated plants in some ways. I literally almost slid off the stool and I'm sitting on, so maybe not sophisticated. It's a little snippy and I'm wearing a very like, like a slip dress. And it's like as if I'm sitting on a slip and slide.

Nina: [00:26:21] Maybe we will need to have a YouTube channel because it would be amazing to watch you.

Anna: [00:26:27] It's true. I was telling friends the other day that 400 years into a pandemic I still haven't quite figured out my Zoom set up. And they were like, and I was just like, my apartment just doesn't work for it.

I was like, and I always, almost look like a little kid who's just like barely peering because my angles. But I, I was thinking a lot, like I have been to see a really good doctor, and she was just like asking me a lot about my kind of like history and like, and it just made me think about like one story we're sold is just that I think we're sold that our lives are going to be so much more linear and focused and unchanging like than they are.

And I think I used to think because maybe I really resisted being grounded for many, many moons. I don't think I felt particularly rooted for a variety of reasons. So I think I just thought like, oh, that's going to be a curse. Like I'm never going to resolve that. And I don't think I realized... When I first heard that thing about the root chakra and stuff, like I knew for me, I was avoiding really looking at a lot of that stuff. Like really avoiding looking at what kept me from connecting to safety or knowing I deserved it or was worth it and had the ability to cultivate it for myself.

Nina: [00:27:50] No, of course, you didn't because where would you have gotten that education?

Anna: [00:27:56] But I think, I just didn't know that also, like, so when I started doing that and being like, okay, like what do I really want to be rooted in? What do I really want to be grounded in? You know, these sort of things. That can change and you can change at any time. And you can go like, you know what, I don't think this is serving me so much. Or I think for me, a big thing was being hardworking and ambitious to the point of overriding my body. And that felt like safety. I had to learn the nuance of hardworking, sure, good. You know, to the point of like override? No. Then it's gone out of balance.

Nina: [00:28:35] And it's waiting for a tower moment.

Anna: [00:28:37] Yeah. And I had to learn that like if I think because like chaos felt safe to me like it took me a really long time for grounded and rooted to feel safe to me.

Nina: [00:28:48] I feel like those things, those are just words until you understand how that feels in your body and how you can like, see it mirrored back to you because of something that you have done, right? For me anyway, it didn't make sense. You can say, oh, and grounding and rooting. Even like my first yoga classes as an adult and into your feet and blah, blah. I'm like, yeah, they're there like next.

Anna: [00:29:14] So I'd be like, yeah, I'm standing on them. They're obviously there,

Nina: [00:29:20] Now it's like, I can spend so much time thinking and talking and, you know, feeling into it because it really is a couple of things: realizing I think how basic it needs to be is so it's almost freeing in a way. Right? I was talking to a client today about just having a simple schedule. She comes from an incredibly chaotic background, and we were talking about just being comfortable in the chaos.

So even though she has like a completely different life than she did growing up, she is creating it right as we do this sense of chaos in an otherwise peaceful life, because that safety to her, even though it's not anymore. Right? And I said to her, you know, things that I've said to myself and many people, like, there's nothing wrong with you not knowing how to do it differently.

Like it takes time. It takes a lot of discipline to be like, I actually don't need to do that anymore. I can do something different. I can choose even in a super small way, like creating a schedule for myself. So I don't have 5,000 plans happening or notebooks everywhere, chaos, because I think we teach ourselves that we have to be one way forever.

Like you're saying, you know, and that's the kind of the conversation growing up too. It's like you go to school and then you go to another school and you get a job and you're married, got married and you have some kids and then you die. And it's like, there's everything exists between those things.

And some people don't even want any of those things. Right?

So allowing ourselves to change, I think is super grounding right in the moment. And during every day is different. So what do you need that day? You need to eat differently. You need to have like a structure, but allow ourselves to be fluid in that. You know, stability, don't you think?

Anna: [00:31:13] Yeah, I think so. And I think also if you're like me and when that changes, you don't like it.

Nina: [00:31:21] That's valid too. Tell me more about that.

Anna: [00:31:24] I mean, cause I think like, you know, we do intuitive work it's in the whole thing for us and so I think like I get annoyed in that I'm like, oh, I know these things help me. You know, like I know this. And I get really annoyed when they don't and it changes.

Nina: [00:31:46] Let's talk about you and change for a minute.

Anna: [00:31:48] I love-hate change. I do like it, part of me loves change. You know what it is? I don't think I'm like it when I think I've wrapped my mind around something or gotten grappled with it. I think because I felt so deficient in taking care of myself in these things of like how to be a healthy person, that I would really cling to it cause it felt like an accomplishment.

And I didn't understand that it was an ever-evolving thing. So that would be like threatening to me cause I would be like this isn't where I'm confident. Like, I don't know, like if this isn't working, like I'm getting enough sleep. I don't need more sleep, but I'm still exhausted or whatever.

I just think that's more when it comes to that sort of thing. Like that's why the change sort of flusters me is I'm just like, oh, I think I feel, I mean, now it's better, but like definitely a couple of years ago it was like, I've given it all the tricks I know, you know like I don't have anything left.

Like if this isn't working for you, body and psyche, like, I don't have anything else, you know. Whereas now, it's okay. And like things just change and that's all right. Reading is something I really love, but during the pandemic, I couldn't. You know, I just, I was like at first, so excited. I was like, I'm finally gonna read all these books.

Cause you know, I was initially like, I think a lot of us, it was like as if we're going to like go on sabbatical, you know, and then I very quickly, like, could not read. Just couldn't read, couldn't absorb anything. And my therapist was like, oh, okay. So this is like part of your grief response or something.

And I was like, oh. I was like, that's okay. Like, can you go back to like podcasts? Like, can you listen to something? You know, it didn't flummox me as much, but it was like interesting. I think I've gotten better at just like acceptance and not making it about me or something. It was like one of those good moments where I'm not going to gaslight myself.

I know for a fact that I'm trying to read these things and I just cannot do it. My brain's not absorbing it. I'm not comfortable. You know, I'm not comprehending anything, I'm not retaining anything. Like this is a pointless exercise. You know, I felt very aware of that, but I just didn't understand why it was happening and just casually mentioned it.

I thought. And I didn't really, I wasn't trying to be like, I have been in the past where I was like, override that like, I will reread this page as many times as it takes, which would have been me probably like 5 to 10 years ago. But I'll just keep trying until I get it. I think I've gotten better at just being you can't read it right now. It's okay.

When something is de-stabilizing, find, you know, the ground in some way. How, whatever that means to you. And for you, in that moment, it's that's okay. Even just assuring yourself or like having compassion makes you feel a little bit better and safer, right?

Yeah. I think a default for me is to blame myself or be critical. What did I do? What have I done? And I've had to learn that's kind of a form I don't know, of narcissism? I mean, like to assume it all begins and ends with yourself? But I've had to realize there are very few times that's actually helped me, you know, and if I just kind of go like there, isn't a negative connotation to this. That's what you're bringing into this conversation.

Nina: [00:35:07] I think that's a good question to ask each other. The most helpful way to connect with your roots, to connect with your foundation, to heal. And the most unhelpful.

Anna: [00:35:20] Unhelpful I would think is receiving unsolicited advice.

Nina: [00:35:25] Fuck what they said.

Anna: [00:35:28] That's a really good question.

I think helpful for me is usually I think of it as I have to like power down. I have to like power down and shut out. I usually need to come back to myself in some way. And whether that's like canceling plans and like giving myself some alone time or quiet, like downtime. I think of it as like whatever gives me like a deep kind of sigh to be like, okay. Now what? That clarity. I think it's also asking for what I need. Sometimes something I've really accepted about myself is I'm slower to process than I'd like. And so sometimes I have to like, you see it with me when we're making decisions. I'm like, I'm not saying no, I'm just saying I need a second.

Nina: [00:36:10] And I'm like what do you mean it doesn't happen for you in a split second?

Anna: [00:36:14] She's like taking her finger like off the button to like fire it, you know. I'll be like, I'm not saying like, I'm not saying no, but I'm like, I just want to think on it. And she's like, yeah. Okay, cool. Totally cool.

I don't love that, you know? Like I want to be like, yeah, yeah. Let's make decisions. Let's do things.

Nina: [00:36:29] But I like that about you.

Anna: [00:36:31] Like sometimes I'm like I need to sit with it. Cause I'm usually thinking of how does something fit into like the larger context of things. And I just want to make sure I'm doing my own due diligence, but that wanting to do that due diligence, like for me is both like a good thing.

It is how I felt it feels safe and grounded, but it's also a way I think I can like set myself up. And I have to be like, you've had a roughed-out plan. But it wasn't written in stone. Another thing for me is being hydrated a big, big, big, big, big one.

Nina: [00:36:58] God, if you would poured it, forgetting that you have headphones on, and then she got electric.

Anna: [00:37:08] I wish like now I do wish this was live. And then like the technical difficulties slate goes up and I'm like, uh, sadly, we had to pause because Nina electrocuted herself.

I mean, I do think water's a big thing for me. And sort of some basics you know. Like, I love coffee. So like if I'm traveling or I'm staying with someone, something I need sort of sussed out is like, how's that coffee going to happen in the morning?

Nina: [00:37:35] Do I know. First, I don't stay with people. First of all, now I have a kid. So I'm just like, that's never happening again. Ever, ever, never.

Anna: [00:37:45] She's like, that's over for me.

Nina: [00:37:46] Yeah, no forever. Um, but the coffee is one thing I absolutely need to know. Where's it coming from? But also like, do you even have good tasting coffee? Like, because it needs I am a fucking snob when it comes to coffee and other things, frankly.

Anna: [00:38:03] I'm slutty about coffee.

Nina: [00:38:04] What's interesting to you is you're saying that a lot of the things that can be really helpful can also be really unhelpful, like too much coffee.

Anna: [00:38:13] It's true. I think that's, it's funny. Yeah. Do you remember an article that came out? I think in the New York Times a couple of years ago, that was like, if you love something, like don't do it all the time. That it was like, if you have, you know, if there's a place you go to cause like you, you know, love the, literally the example they used was coffee. That the writer would get, um, like a latte from this place, you know, like if they happen to be taking like that train and then eventually they changed it and were getting that latte every day. And then it wasn't as special. It didn't taste as good, you know.

And that's something I think about a lot is I am an incredibly compulsive person. And I'm also somebody that, you know, if one's good, two's better, you know. And I had to go like, okay, lady maximalist, like, are you going to like, are you going to destabilize yourself in this quest for like, chasing that high?

Or are you going to take future pleasure away from yourself by devaluating. Exactly, she's gagging now and I did it on purpose. I knew if I was going to say pleasure, I had to say it like that.

Nina: [00:39:26] And really just gross me out.

Anna: [00:39:28] I told you about the time my mom was discussing, she was talking about one of her boyfriends and...

Nina: [00:39:34] Your mom's not, your mom's not a virgin?

Anna: [00:39:37] First of all, my mom's not a virgin. Hence why I'm here. But she also described them as being sensual. And I was like, ew Mom. Like, is your mom not allowed to like have lovers or something? I was like, that's the second foul. I was like, no, of course, she is, but if you're going to say sensual, you have to say sensual.

I feel the same way about pleasure.

Nina: [00:39:59] I feel destabilized and unsafe.

Anna: [00:40:03] But it is something I have to ask myself. Is this desire to like repeat or have more, I mean, it sounds so silly, but I think it is constantly talking to yourself, like a five-year-old. Where like I wanted another cup of coffee today and yet acid reflux is constantly ruining my life. And I was like, Anna, do you want this cup of coffee bad enough to potentially feel bad? Or can you wait and have your cup of coffee in the morning? And I was like, oh, I can wait. Like, I'll enjoy it more then, you know.

Nina: [00:40:31] If we only talked to ourselves like that all the time, we'd all be better off. But if nobody ever talked to you like that and also just if you become an adult and you start to get further away from yourself. We all do. It's hard to imagine yourself as that child or, you know, and it's not in a patronizing way. It's just, do you really need that honey? Or are you maybe not, you know.

Anna: [00:40:54] Also as a form of like denial or rejection or whatever, I don't know about you, but I got like real high as an adult on being able to like, meet my needs and give me the things that I wanted that then that went too far, you know?

And I do think it's like this process. If you didn't feel safe or things made you not feel safe as a child, as you get older if you're going to have to cultivate that on your own, I would say as someone who's also done that, give yourself so much patience and so much compassion. And like, it's not about doing it right or wrong.

Like, I really do think it's just being willing much like boundaries, much like needs, like anything else. Like it's not always sexy and it's not always the answer you want.

Nina: [00:41:37] It's like it's rarely ever sexy.

Anna: [00:41:40] Oh, yeah, it really isn't.

Nina: [00:41:41] Sometimes it is right. Like, but really rarely it is.

And I think that's such an important point because so much of the wellness industry capitalizes on people's need for like shiny objects and sexy fixes, and it's all bullshit. You have to be disciplined. It's gritty sometimes. It's not, it doesn't mean it's not fun or beautiful in moments, but it's also like a job. And it's for the rest of your life.

Anna: [00:42:10] I mean, there's just also too there's. I mean, I think it can take more time than you maybe want, but there's also no substitute for just getting in there and kind of getting your hands dirty. And going, what does make me feel better? When do I feel this? You know, like it's cool to like have tools and have crystals or have, you know, Palo Santo you light or whatever.

Nina: [00:42:31] Not Palo Santo, it's over-harvested. It's over-harvested.

Anna: [00:42:33] I know. I mean, all these things are cool, but if you're not asking yourself and then noticing how you feel like, when does it feel good? When does it feel bad? None of those things matter.

Nina: [00:42:44] No, if the truth isn't present, then there's nothing else to build on.

Anna: [00:42:48] Which sucks. I get it. I fight it every day. Like I understand, you know.

Nina: [00:42:52] I don't, I'm perfect.

But tell me how that feels to be, to be imperfect.

Anna: [00:43:01] I mean like I wouldn't understand as someone who's perfect.

Nina: [00:43:05] Yeah, it just doesn't ring any bells for me. No, but the truth is we have to be really honest with ourselves in a way that can feel confronting. Right? But can soften over time, I think, given the right environment of like you and you being like it's okay.

You know, looking at yourself in the mirror, it's incredibly uncomfortable, but I highly recommend it. You know, there's a card in the that archetype deck by Kim Krans. The self behind the self. Just gazing and ask it. And that might really confrontational to you or hard, which is okay. But I think one of the most stabilizing things I do is to stop and look at myself in the mirror.

I remember when I used to drink too much. And I still drink wine, but I don't definitely, I mean, I haven't been drunk in I can't even remember when years and years. And I used to look at myself in the mirror when I had too much wine, and I wouldn't recognize myself. And that really scared me. And I think now it's so amazing to look at myself in the mirror when I'm feeling unsafe and be like, you're okay.

And it's okay that you don't feel safe in this moment. For me, the most unhelpful thing that I do is worry.

Anna: [00:44:11] Yeah.

Nina: [00:44:11] And I worry all the fucking time. I don't worry about myself as much as I do about my kid or our safety or our planet or you vulnerable population. And, you know, then I'm like, oh yeah and you could die too, but there's, you know, worry is the most unhelpful thing I do. And the most helpful thing I do is to quiet myself and to sit and just be, you know, in whatever form.

Any closing thoughts on roots and foundation, we can talk about this for, for so long, and we will.

Anna: [00:44:42] It's a big, big thing. I would say if it feels really hard for you to try to find support and resources that feel actually like that. If it makes you feel bad or you're looking at someone that you think has it like all together to like, model that for you, like maybe don't.

Nina: [00:45:01] Oh my God. Such a good point.

Anna: [00:45:02] This is it's okay if your version doesn't look like someone else's because it is such a deeply personal thing.

And I would say, if it feels hopeless to you or like you, like, I don't have the most amazing backstory, you know what I mean? Like I have my own trauma and chaos and I know you and I both have heard countless clients with, I mean, bananas stories where you're like, how are you even talking to me? And they've been able to cultivate it.

It's not hopeless. Like if that's something you want for yourself, it is I think, available to you even if it doesn't feel like it is in this moment. I would say, give yourself permission to sort of like wipe the slate clean, go like I'm going to like, get rid of this story that I'm never going to be able to feel safe. I'm never gonna be able to earn money. I'm never going to be able to build a future for myself because how I came to this earth didn't give me skills for that.

I would say, wipe the slate clean, if you can, in a way. And then go, well, okay. What can I do tomorrow? Can I have my laundry done? What can I do that'll make me feel like I am building safety for myself? And just see how that feels. See how it goes. You know, like it does not happen overnight. It's a long process and it's going to change. So don't feel like it's not available to you regardless of what your story is. It is. It's available to all of us.

Nina: [00:46:15] Yeah, it is.

Anna: [00:46:16] And everyone deserves it. Everybody deserves to feel safe in their body and in their life.

Nina: [00:46:20] Everyone. The more we work on creating that for ourselves, the more we can help people whose safety is actually threatened by just being who they are. And we all know who those people are. They're not white people. They're not straight white people.

Well, have a beautiful end of your day or beginning of your day. And we're happy you're here. Have a beautiful day.

Anna: [00:46:45] Have a beautiful middle of your day. Have a beautiful day. Or middle of your night, or...

Nina: [00:46:52] We'll be here for 10 more hours like maybe it's a second hour of your day.

Okay, bye, everyone.

That's all for today's episode.

Anna: [00:47:06] If there is a topic you want us to discuss, please submit it on our website at thesoulunity.com/how-to-be-human.

Nina: [00:47:12] And if you want to connect with other thoughtful humans, please join us at The SoulUnity. Listeners get two weeks free by going to our website and using the How to Be Human option in the dropdown.

Anna: [00:47:22] Thanks for listening, and remember we're guides, not gurus.