Welcome back my friends.

If this is your first time here, I am delighted you found Just Breathe.

We talk all things loving, raising and empowering LGBTQ people.

But at the core it is a space for you to take a breath, quiet all of the noise around you, and just be.

Today's guest Eric Marcus is the author of a dozen books, including two editions of Making Gay History.

The original 1992 edition is entitled Making History.

He is also the author of why Suicide and Breaking the the number one New York Times best selling autobiography of Olympic diving champion Greg Louganis.

Eric is also the co producer of those who Were There, a podcast drawn from the Fortunoff video archive for Holocaust testimonies.

He is the founder and Chair emeritus of the Stonewall 50 consortium and is a founding board member of the American LGBTQ Museum.

Making Gay History is a 501c3 nonprofit organization that addresses the absence of substantive, in depth LGBTQ inclusive American history from the public discourse and the classroom.

By sharing the stories of those who helped a despised minority take its rightful place in society as full and equal citizens, they aim to encourage connection, pride and solidarity within the LGBTQ community and to provide an entry point for both allies and the general public to its largely hidden history.

You can find a link to the Making Gay History podcast in the show notes.

I have been such a fan of this podcast for so long, I have learned so much from it.

So I am absolutely delighted to welcome Eric to Just Breathe.

Today Might be gay.

And I was very casual in way I in the way I said it.

And she said, why are you so being so casual about this?

And I didn't say anything.

And she got pale and, and she looked at me and she said, maybe because you are.

And I did what you're not supposed to do.

And I said, see you later, Mom.

And I left and got in the car, drove over to see my friend Richard.

I said, richard, oh my God.

My mother just.

My mother thinks I'm gay.

What do I do?

And when I got home that night, I turned off the engine, rolled down the driveway, left the car in the yard, crawled up the stairs and my room was on the third floor.

Her bedroom was on the second, is an old house, so it creaked.

And I opened the door to the staircase to my room, to the staircase to my room.

And I heard my mother say, can we talk?

And I went in and sat on her bed and, and I said, I said, yes, I am gay.

And I said, do you feel guilty?

Because I had read some of the P. FLAG material and it said that parents often felt guilty.

So I had already prepared.

And my mother said, oh, no, I don't feel guilty.

I'm disappointed.

She might as well stab me in the heart.

I burst into tears.

She didn't.

Because I was the classic best little boy in the world.

Did everything right.

Never stayed out late, didn't act out, didn't drink, didn't.

I mean, really, I was a. I got very good grades in school.

I didn't have to be told to pick up it after myself.

If anything, my mother would have to say, you know, you should.

You need to ease off on yourself.

So that was devastating to me.

Yes.

Yeah.

And I didn't know.

But I learned later that my mother called one of her friends to say, I don't know what this means exactly.

She knew it was something bad, and she knew what a homosexual was, but she didn't know what the implications were.

We talked soon after that, and she said, I want you to see a psychiatrist.

And I said, I want you to go to a p. Flag meeting.

And we were both stubborn.

And it was 13 years before she went to a p. Flag meeting.

Might have been fewer, but I think it was 13 years.

And it was years before I went to see a therapist.

And I only learned later that she wanted me to see a therapist because she could see that I was depressed, which I was.

And my father had killed himself seven years prior.

And she was afraid that I'd killed myself.

And I thought she wanted me to see a psychiatrist, to change.

So we just.

We were not.

We were cross communicating.

And I thought that she would.

In meeting other parents, that it would be helpful to her.

And she just couldn't hear it.

Years later, there's a.

My favorite photograph with my mom is of the.

Or the two of us at the 1993 March on Washington.

And she's got her P flag sash and her buttons and.

And I. I thought, what a transformation.

And what I didn't know until years after she died, she co founded the p. The Queen's chapter of PFLAG with Jean Manford, who was the founder.

Co Founder of pflag.

Period.

Oh, my God.

She didn't tell me because I had scolded her once about being an activist.

I said, I'm the one who's gay.

And.

And I should never have said that.

So she kept from me all of some of her activism.

And I've met PFLAG parents since then who've had this.

Had similar experiences with their kids who were a little annoyed at them for becoming involved in making it their cause.

My mom, turns out, was really good at it, and she became a therapist after I got out of college.

During the AIDS crisis, she volunteered with the Gay Men's Health Crisis to run a workshop for gay men whose partners were ill or had died from aids.

So ultimately, I was very proud of my mom, of what she had done.

I wish that I had known that she co founded the queen's chapter p flag and I could tell her how proud I am of what she did.

So she was great.

My grandmother.

I was closer to my grandmother than anybody on the planet.

My father's mother and my uncle, her son, My father's brother, urged me never to tell her because it would, as he said, it would kill her.

It would break her heart.

I was her favorite, and for years I kept it from her, but it reached a point where it was ridiculous.

I was about to have my first book published, the Male Couple's Guide to living together, in 1988, and I didn't want her to learn from the media because I figured I'd get some attention for the book.

I didn't want her to learn that way.

So I made a plan to tell her, which, like, it would take us an hour to go through all the back and forth over how I told her.

It was.

It was terrifying.

And it was only on the second attempt when.

When she was completely alone at home, my grandfather was out and her best friend was not over for lunch, which is what happened the first time I went to tell her.

So I figured she probably knew by then because she'd met my then partner.

But I didn't tell her that he was my partner.

But she was shocked, and I was so relieved just to have told her.

And then she started.

I was told later she cried for three days.

I warned my uncle.

I gave him a heads up, and he said, I really wish you wouldn't do this.

And I said, you know, at this point, it is.

It can't be on me.

It was too much to try to keep everyone in the family new, and it was too much to try to keep.

Keep her guessing.

It was terrible.

And she very quickly came around that.

That Mother's Day of 1987, it must have been.

Or 88, I can't remember now.

She took me for a walk.

She'd never said, you know, let's go for a walk and have a talk.

This was at a family event.

And she said, look, I understand that you're gay, and that's not going to change.

I watched the Donahue show So Phil Donahue had a talk show, then he had a lot of gay people on.

And she said, I know you're not, it's not going to change, but why do you have to tell anybody?

And I explained to her that I was in the very fortunate position of being someone who could.

I had a supportive family, I had work, and I present in a way that people can accept.

And I was also very studied in the way I presented in those days.

I wore, I'm wearing the same kind of shirt today, a blue button down shirt.

I was careful about how I used my hands to speak.

So I was very clear of being masculine, masculine presenting.

And I could do it because I, how I of, of how I am, how I was born.

So I told her that I felt it was my responsibility as someone who could speak out to do so.

And she came around over time.

I wrote about her in an article in Newsweek in 1992 or 1993.

And before that she teased.

Oh no, she says she teased me.

She said, you want me to stand on top of the Empire State Building and say my grandson is gay and I accept him and all.

I said, yes, I do.

I do actually want you to do.

I took her to, to.

She came to every book, book event that I had in New York City.

And then she came with me to a talk I gave at the, I think it was at Lehigh University.

It was in Pennsylvania.

It was a road trip.

It was so much fun.

And at dinner afterwards with some of the kids, at some of the students, I so loved listening her to her talk to this one young man who hadn't come out to his family yet.

And to hear her talking about, talking with him and reassuring him that it would be okay, that he could and that his parents would ultimately come to accept it and that, that he should use her example in talking to them.

Oh, so I'm lucky.

I'm really lucky.

I had very supportive family, but the experience of coming out to my family members was the most terrifying thing I think I've ever done.

Even more terrifying than rappelling off of a cliff in.

I was at Chile.

Chile.

That was terrifying.

But not as terrifying as going to my grandmother's apartment in Brooklyn and telling her that I was gay.

Oh my gosh.

I mean, perspective, doesn't it?

Yeah.

Long answer to your short question.

Oh my God, I'm just right back in that now.

I was in telling my grandmother that I was gay.

I remember I was, I, I, my shirt was completely soaked through by the time I got to so I started with saying, you know, Barry, who I live with, he's.

He's not my, he's, he's not my friend.

He's my partner.

And she looked at me completely blank.

And I could see, oh, my God, I'm going to have to say it.

And I said, grandma, I'm gay.

Barry's gay, and he is my boyfriend.

And they were.

I could see her eyes welled up with tears, but she didn't react badly in that moment.

She held it together.

Oh, God.

I had a long trip back from Brooklyn home.

Oh, that was just, that's, that's a long time ago.

Yeah.

But I remember it wild how when you talk about these stories, like it puts you right back in that moment.

Yeah.

Feel it.

Yeah.

I'm a 65 year old man now.

My grandmother's been gone for 19 years, my mother's been gone for 20.

And I can, you can see that I'm rubbing my forehead, but it does, it does take me right back.

It was, it's such high stakes, you know, and our parents are so important to us.

Yeah.

At least to me.

To me and to most of the people I know.

And Even if you're 99.9% sure your parents are going to be accepting, I've had these conversations with young people who know that their parents will be 9 or 99.9% likely to accept them.

They're still terrified to this day in, in 2024.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

I mean, because to your, like you said, the stakes are so high.

What if it's that 0.1.

That's right.

That's right.

And you just hope that your parents are going to say the right thing, that they're not going to say, I'm disappointed that they're going to say, I love you just the way you are.

Yeah.

And I have told parents who have come to me for advice.

Yeah.

Who say.

Who said to me, I think my kid's gay and I don't know what to say when they tell me.

Or can I ask them?

And yes, you can ask them, but I say, no matter how you feel, you need to say what you think your child needs because they will always remember that moment.

And even if you're at all unsure or you feel like you need to say that, it's going to take you some time to accept and understand.

Don't say that.

That's your problem.

Yeah.

Say I love you just as you are and hug them.

And then go to the library.

Then, then ask you.

Read your book.

Yes.

Podcast yes.

Yeah.

But don't.

Don't share your anxieties and concerns in that moment.

That's not what your kid needs a thousand percent.

Yeah.

Say thank you for telling me.

Thank you for sharing that with me.

Yes.

Yes.

I'm so sorry you waited.

I'm so sorry that you didn't feel you could tell.

Tell me everything.

Everything.

I'm here for you.

Exactly.

Then go in the next room and cry if you feel like it, but not where they can hear you.

Yes, exactly.

You go let your movie reel blow up and, and deal with it.

And then.

Right.

Get together and.

Right.

Be what they.

They need.

They need.

Right.

Right.

Don't say, oh my God, I'll never be a grandparent or.

And these days you can be.

You know, when I was a young gay person, nobody had kids.

So.

Yeah.

Yeah.

These days you can be.

I mean.

Yeah.

You know what?

I.

Yes, it's.

It's extraordinary.

It really is.

There's so many questions I want to ask you.

I'm not sure where to go next, but I want to just trying to kind of keep in a timeline here.

I'd love to know.

You said that you knew Jean Manford, who was the founder of PFLAG or the co founder of pflag, which I am a huge fan of and always direct people to finding their local P Flag, which is so helpful.

It's a terrific organization.

And I came to interview Jean and Morty Manford because I did an oral history book about what was then called the gay and lesbian civil rights movement movement.

The book was commissioned in 1988 and at the time the book was commissioned by Harper and Rowe, now HarperCollins.

Most of the people who were there at the beginning of the movement were still alive.

And the movement dates back to 1950.

The first organization was the Mattachine Society founded in Los Angeles by five men.

And I got to interview the founders of that organization and then the founders of the Daughters of Belitus, the first organization for lesbians founded in 1955 in San Francisco.

And the co founders of PFLAG, Jean Manford.

So I was very aware of PFLAG because of my mom and her involvement.

So I don't remember exactly how I came to call Jean.

I must have.

It was an easy, easy to find her.

But when I went to interview her, I only knew about her.

I didn't know that she co founded Peak Flag with her son Morty and that Morty had been a major figure in the gay rights movement.

He was the, at one point the President in his early 20s of the gay Activist Alliance.

He also happened to have been at Stonewall the night of the uprising.

Wow.

So I went to interview Jean, and Morty was at home.

He had moved home after his father died, and I didn't know at the time that he was not well already.

So I interviewed Gan and Morty together and then went back to interview Morty on his own.

So we did se.

I've done two episodes, one with.

With Jean and Morty, and one with just Morty.

They were extraordinary.

And Jean was this.

My first impression of.

Jean was a very shy elementary school teacher.

But what became very clear very quickly was you didn't mess with Jean's kid.

I didn't know that Jean had already lost one son who killed himself and that she wasn't going to lose a second kid.

And she adored Morty and would do anything to protect him.

And that included marching in the 1972 Pride March.

I think I've got my dates right.

1972 Pride March, carrying a sign that said, parents of gays, colon unite in support of our children.

And my favorite photograph of Pfleg is from that march.

And you see on the left and behind her, Dr. Benjamin Spock, the famous child psychologist, who was wearing a white shirt and a tie.

And people were cheering, and she thought they were cheering along the parade route.

She thought they were cheering for Dr. Spock, not realizing they were cheering for her until people started running out from the crowd on the sidelines to hug her and kiss her and say, I wish my parents were like you.

And it was from that experience that she and Morty and Jean's husband Jules, founded, actually organized the first meeting, which became Parents of Gays, which later became Parents, Friends and Families of Lesbians and Gays, which became pflec.

And I stayed friendly with.

With Jean right through the end of her life.

I only stayed friendly with a handful of people I interviewed because I interviewed over 100 people.

You can't stay friends with everyone.

I adored Jean, just adored her and Morty.

Morty died before the book was even published.

It was of AIDS and died as so many people I knew died.

And that was devastating to her, of course.

Oh, my goodness.

Of course it was.

I cannot even imagine.

Yeah.

But wow, what a force.

And she was.

And you'd meet her.

She's five foot something, you know, just tiny and silver hair and very soft spoken.

But she wasn't.

Yeah, not mess.

Yeah.

She went back to her principal at her school where she taught when she was in the news at one point her principal asked her if she said, you.

You need to stay out of the public eye.

And she said, no, no, you know, I'll do what I want.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I was so lucky to know her.

And I also knew Amy and Dick Ashworth, who were very involved in New York City P Flag.

Amy was Dutch, her husband.

They were high, high wasp.

I mean, in the nicest possible way.

And I met them when they were invited to speak at Vassar College for Sophomore parents weekend in 19.

It must have been the spring of 1980 or the fall of 7.

No, it was fall of 79.

And my boyfriend's parents were coming to Vassar and his parents were.

Were also high wasp.

And I was the first boyfriend they were going to meet.

And I was the one who got to introduce Amy and Dick Ashworth at this event.

And Dick was in his rep tie, Amy was in a plaid skirt.

And they.

Doug's parents were up, up at the podium within seconds after the.

Their talk ended to meet them and talk with him.

They were terrific.

They lost two gay sons to aids.

Their son Eric was my agent for my book, for my history book.

And coincidentally, my current partner of 30 years dated their other son, Tucker.

Oh, wow.

Lovely kid.

They were both wonderful men.

And yeah, a lot of.

A lot of tragedy during those years.

Oh, yeah.

So heartbreaking.

Yeah.

Totally.

Completely off topic, but one of my very favorite books, I mean, a little bit on topic is the Hearts Invisible Furies.

Yes.

Long ago.

A girlfriend of mine gave it to me soon after Connor had come out.

And I like that book.

I mean, it's still, to this day, I'm so rattled by it.

And I think part of it is because, I mean, I loved it.

And I was like, Harper, you know, it's like one of those books that, like, makes you feel all the emotions.

Right.

But I learned so much by reading that book partially because, you know, I grew up in a family who, you know, very conservative Christian family, upbringing, indoctrination.

And so I grew up thinking that Ronald Reagan was great.

And.

And then I like, you know, subsequently I've, like, read all the things and have become educated and.

And I'm like, we're fine.

It's horrifying.

I mean, and like, heartbroken and like, just.

And thinking.

I mean, I was, you know, middle school, high school in the 80s and aware enough.

Right.

And I think, oh, my gosh, had I. I so, you know, if I could go back in time, like, you know, you ever think about this, like, how would I have handled that differently had I had accurate information available.

And I think that's one.

One of my reasons that I'm so, like, determined to provide accurate information and make it available, widely available for people.

Because, you know, everybody should know, and information is power.

And if you want to understand your kid, and understanding kids is hard enough, but if you want to understand your kid, if your kid is lgbtq, it's it.

And there's no reason to think that you would have that knowledge innately.

I had to learn a lot about what it meant to be a gay person, and I am one.

Right.

So.

And that's something I've often explained to younger people who've come to me for advice about coming out to their parents that first, educate yourself, and expect that you're going to have to educate them.

So I know that many young people have given their.

Given their parents my book, my question and answer book, which is now out of date.

It's called Is it a Choice?

Questions and Answers About Lesbian.

I love it.

It's one of my favorites.

Yes.

Thank you.

Oh, my God.

Very out of date, but it's still pretty good.

Most of the basic questions are there.

Yes, that's what I was just gonna say.

Like, it gives, like, the basics of what you need to know.

Yes, yes.

And I've had parents 101, you know, exactly.

And there are parents who bought the book in anticipation of their kids coming out to them.

So, yeah, that's what I wanted to ask you.

You had said that kind of.

Sorry to jump in, but you had said that kind of in the middle of when you were talking about.

If a parent suspects that their child is lgbtq, go ahead and ask them.

I, I, there's more to that.

There's more to that answer.

Okay.

I.

Because I'd love to hear more, because I always, I say the opposite.

I say wait, because it's their, their news to tell you, like, their figures.

So I'd love to know, like, from your point of view.

I'm curious.

It depends upon the kid.

It depends upon the parent, because some kids are also waiting for their parents to ask.

So you really have to assess the situation for parents.

I remember there was one friend that I had who, who I met on a flight to Atlanta when I was going to give a talk.

And I was.

And I.

She seemed quite conservative to me, and she asked me what I was doing on this flight, and I was like, I gotta have to say what I'm doing.

I said, I'm going to Atlanta.

I have a book that's just been published and giving a talk.

Oh, what's the book on?

Oh, it's, it's a non fiction book.

Oh, what's it about?

Oh, it's a question and answer book about gay issues and gay people.

And she said, oh, she takes a picture out of her purse.

So this is my son.

And she burst into tears.

He was nine years old at the time.

And she said, I think my kid is gay and I don't know what to do.

So I coached her all through his childhood.

She was a, he was a kid you could recognize as gay.

He already loved show tunes, he liked to dress up and he had an American Girl doll collection.

And she said if he didn't come out to her by the time she, by the time he was 16, she was going to ask.

So everyone is, everyone is absolutely different.

And up to that point I said just make clear in whatever way you can that that however they are is fine with you.

If you happen to be watching a television show and there's a gay character, say something positive.

Have a book around the house, you know, but get them age appropriate books that indicate that you would be supportive.

Right.

So I don't.

So it really depends.

So I was being rather flipped when I, when I said, you know, if you're a parent you can ask, you can ask.

It may not be the best thing to do.

And there are there.

I've had plenty of people say to me, my mother asked and I said, no, I'm not gay because they weren't ready.

But sometimes kids are in rough shape and they need to be confronted about what's, what's going on.

Right.

You know, are you, is it this?

Is it this?

Is this, Are you gay?

It's okay with me, but I need to know and we need to get help together.

Right.

You know, it really just depends upon the circumstances.

Right, right.

Okay, that's, thank you so much for clarifying that.

And that's so helpful.

Helpful for me as well and certainly makes so much sense because you know, there are in our, we had no idea but certainly, you know, Connor was definitely, definitely struggling.

So having that piece of information like was super helpful in getting then the support that he needed.

Yeah, yeah.

And if kids, and if the kid says I, there's nothing, I can't talk about it or I don't want to talk to you, that's, that's the moment to say we're going to be seeing a family therapist together and we're going on such and such, you know, such and such date and we're going together.

We're going to figure this out.

Right.

And you know, just kind of a side note to that, like, be ready for them to not be super happy about that.

Like, no kid is like, yes.

Family therapy.

Oh, my God, no.

No, they don't.

They don't love that.

But, you know, after, they will appreciate it down the road.

And so that's.

That.

That is a good thing.

Just like, put your armor on and do it.

Yeah.

I mean, they don't ne.

They don't know better, necessarily.

They don't.

They don't know.

They also.

They also can't see.

They don't know that it can be better.

You know, that on the other side, it can all be better.

It'll be.

It could be painful going through it.

Right.

Or it will be, most likely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's what a parent does.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Oh, my goodness.

Okay, so I would like to shift into another thing that you said that I'm so excited to hear your thoughts on, because I think this is a very common thing for people to think that just because you're gay, you know everything about gender identity, which is very different than sexual orientation.

Right?

Yeah.

Yes.

And the odds are that a lot of gay people don't even know a lot about being gay.

And they, you know, they may reference.

Refer to it as a preference or.

Which it may be for some people or.

And they certainly.

The likelihood is they know nothing about LGBTQ history, which is my specialty.

But as the.

As things have evolved over time, my books were about gay and lesbian people, sometimes occasional bisexual person.

The issue of gender identity wasn't even really on my horizon.

When I started doing my work, people who were trans were very much on the margins.

When I started my work again in the late 1980s, and I didn't meet the first person I knew who was trans until probably 10 years ago.

No, no, no.

Eight years ago or seven years ago, I was on a panel for a documentary class and there was this really cute guy.

Not my type generally, but kind of tough looking, with leather jacket and a little chain for keys, buzz cut haircut, this beautiful, gravelly voice, Israeli born.

So had an accent as well.

And I just thought, this is one of the sexiest people.

Mid-30s, one of the sexy people I've.

I've met.

And when he introduced himself, he introduced himself as a trans man and just blew my mind because I had no idea.

And over time, I got to know this person whose name was Mor M O r More Ehrlich.

And.

And I had A lot to learn.

I didn't know.

And then probably around the same time, somebody came out to me as non binary.

I was at a meeting at the Museum of the City of New York about my, my current work, and maybe it's six years ago, and one of my, one of my colleagues at the museum caught up to me at the end of the meeting.

It's just the two of us and, and this person said, I want to just tell you that I'm non binary now.

I knew enough to say, that's great, and I'm really honored that you felt comfortable sharing that with me.

And then I had to call one of my younger friends and say, what just happened?

And what does that mean?

And I've learned to say, when I've given talks at colleges, I'll say, I don't know everything.

I may get pronouns wrong.

I hope you'll correct me if I say something that that is incorrect, but I don't know it.

I just don't know everything.

And I am an older person and grew up in a very different world and don't expect me to know.

Generally, I will not comment in the press on, on trans issues other than to say what's going on now is horrible.

But I, I don't speak for trans people.

I don't speak for non binary people.

I speak for, if I'm asked to speak on anything, I can talk about gay and lesbian people, gay men more than lesbians, because I'm not a lesbian.

But don't expect me to know.

Why would I know?

Right?

You know?

Yeah.

But I have found that some of the younger people I deal with get really annoyed that I don't know and they don't feel, they feel like they shouldn't have to explain.

Yeah.

And I subscribe to the belief that we are in a position, those of us who are out and knowledgeable about who we are, and in my case, it's as a gay man that we are obligated, whether we like it or not or not, to help educate people about who we are.

And I think the same goes for trans people and non binary people.

You should not expect that, that people will understand.

You know, and the line that makes me crazy is when I've heard young people say, well, why should I have to explain myself?

Well, because you do.

And you can't expect people to know.

And the world isn't going to change if you don't do it, so suck it up, stop complaining, learn what you have to learn, and do it if you can.

Not everyone Can.

Right.

But if you're in a position to.

You're in a safe place, then, yes, it's our responsibility.

Yes, it is.

Thank you.

Thank you for saying that.

Because I will say that that has been a very common thing that has come to me recently, both by guests that I've had on the podcast and podcasts that I've been a guest on, where people have been like, oh, my gosh, like the young kids, you know, our teenagers, our young adults don't have a lot of patience with us, and what do we do about that?

And so I think that your answer right there so clear.

And, you know, my.

I've always said, you know, it is perfectly okay to say, give me a minute.

I'm learning.

I'm doing my best.

It's one thing if somebody is being, you know, just ugly behavior or saying hateful things.

Okay, that's fine.

You can put up your wall and have.

Right.

But if it's somebody who is actively, like, learning and saying, you know, I want to understand, I want to, to, you know, please explain this to me or point me in the direction of where I can learn.

Right.

Then give them a minute.

Yeah, that's an, that's an opening.

That's an opening.

And.

And the worst thing you can do is shut somebody down, in that case.

And I've had that experience where with, with people who've been less than generous, and it's wounding on this side, and it makes me not want to, you know, it makes me want to be so cautious that I put up my own walls.

Right, Right.

I have a, A good friend now who's another journalist who came out as trans at age 60, and that was three or four years ago.

And we have, we've done a number of panels together.

And I continue to learn.

And she continues to learn.

Her partner scolded her at dinner one evening and said, don't think that just because you dress as a woman now and you've transitioned that you know what it means to be a woman.

Like, oh, oh, my God.

It was a.

Because the partner's a woman.

And it was just a fascinating back and forth.

These are incredibly complex issues, and there isn't a one size fits all situation.

And patience and understanding are essential if we're going to get to a better place.

Yes, yes.

And being curious.

Yeah, yeah, curious.

And then.

And then there are people and you can ask questions, and if someone's not comfortable, they can say, you know, that's.

That's more than I want to talk about.

Right.

My Friend said that, you know, people are always curious.

She says they're curious about my bits.

She's raised in the UK and she said there's more to me than my.

My bits.

Absolutely.

It is funny, though.

People are.

I mean, I have a friend who transitioned at 50, and she said the same thing.

And she's been very open with, you know, with me through her transitioning process.

And like, half the time I'm like, I don't understand what that means.

Like, I don't mean to ask uncomfortable, weird questions, but I need for you to explain this to me.

Yeah.

Like, why would, you know, I'm Googling.

I'm like, yes.

You know, yes.

God, for Google.

I mean.

Yeah.

And also be careful of Google because it will also send you places that are not accurate.

That's absolutely so.

Absolutely.

So.

So it's not the end all be all, but it at least gives a general something.

Yeah.

Oh, my goodness.

Okay.

So I would love to kind of circle back a little bit to how you really got into, like, what made you realize that researching and writing about gay history was your.

That's your sweet spot.

That's your passion.

That's, you know, you do.

What were you like?

Oh, yeah, this is it.

This is accident.

Accident.

It was an accident.

I wrote the first book that I wrote, the Male Couple's Guide to Living Together, because my then partner and I didn't know how to do it.

And I innocently, at dinner one night with friends who worked in magazine publishing, as did I at the time, and my partner, too, I said, gee, I wonder if there's a book out there on this.

We were two young couples who've been together three years each, and it turned out there wasn't a book.

So I wrote a proposal for a book and sold it and wrote about it and did all the research.

I generally have written books that I wanted, I wished had been on the shelves when I was young.

Yeah.

So I could learn the history.

Yes.

That's what I just wrote.

That's what you wrote.

Exactly.

I wish I'd had this seven years ago.

This is exactly what I wish I had.

Yeah, right, exactly.

So the history book was an accident.

I was asked to write the book.

I would never.

I would never have thought to take on a project as daunting as writing an oral history of the gay and lesbian civil rights movement.

I'm not an academic.

I'd never written anything like that before.

I knew nothing about the history.

So that's how I came to it.

I was commissioned to write that book and then the podcast, which is.

Which draws on my original interviews, which I thankfully recorded with broadcast quality equipment.

That was accidental too.

I'd gotten fired from a job and didn't know what I was going to do at age 56.

I had previously turned over all of my archives to the my archive to the New York Public Library with an agreement that they digitized my whole collection.

So, long story short, I was able to access that archive to do an education project that turned into the Making Gay History Podcast, which has now turned into an education project as well.

We're about to release a series of lessons for middle and high school teachers to use that are anchored by Making Gay History Podcast episodes.

I'll be releasing those in the months ahead.

So it's really accidental.

I'm often introduced as a historian.

I'm a citizen historian.

I know a lot about very little, a very thin layer of the history.

There are people who've made this their academic careers.

My background is in urban planning and architecture.

So I came to this accidentally.

And yet it's turned out to be my sweet spot.

I love the stories and it's not this.

When I was commissioned to write this history book, I said I find history mostly boring.

Most of what I've read, but the oral histories, to sit down with people to hear their stories.

I love stories and we all have a story.

So I had the privilege of interviewing people about the stories, their stories, the stories of the story of their lives and how they came to be involved in the movement, what they accomplished.

And.

I'm so lucky to be able to.

To have.

I'm so lucky to have been able to do that.

And.

And then I also felt it was.

It's very selfishly, it's a way of making the world a better place for me and for the people who come up behind me, you know, it's leaving the world a better place than the one I found it.

Than the one that I found, I should say.

Yes.

Well, I think you write in such a way that is not boring and academic.

It is, you know, it draws you in.

It's very personal.

And so for.

Even for people who are like, oh, history, I don't know if I can do it.

Like to your point, it's dry.

This is not.

And it does really like just peak.

I just find, I found it so interesting over time as I've listened and just have learned so much.

So highly recommend.

And yeah, it's doing this first in print.

An oral history book is somewhat two dimensional.

You know, you read People's words.

I've been so lucky to be able to do this as a podcast which is beyond three dimensional because you get so much more information from people's voices.

So I sometimes joke, because I'm not a spiritual or religious person, that the people I interviewed, who are now mostly dead, were not happy with seeing their words in print.

They wanted to speak for themselves.

So they arranged for me to get fired from my job at the American foundation for suicide prevention in 2015, which was traumatic, so that I would eventually come back to my original work and allow them to speak in their own voices.

And.

Oh, it was to hear their voices after it was 30 years since I've listened to these tapes, to hear their voices again.

It's so alive.

Yeah.

So thank you just for podcasts.

I just love.

I love this format.

I love audio.

Yes.

It.

It makes a huge difference.

A huge difference.

I think that's one of the things I love so much about podcasting and just that, that connecting and people, you know, being able to connect by listening.

Yes.

So good.

One more quick question before we wrap up because I know you've been doing some so well, so many interesting things that you do that we haven't even touched on.

But you were just recently on a panel for.

I Can't Believe it was for.

It's for.

It was for Slow Burn.

It's a podcast produced by Slate and it's a multi part series on the Briggs initiative, which was a referendum in California that would have banned gay teachers from teaching in all of the state of California.

It was part of the anti gay national, anti gay campaign started by Anita Bryant.

And Briggs was a local elected official in California and was using gay people for his career to raise his own personal profile.

It's such a beautifully produced series by Christina Carrucci.

She is in her 30s.

There's archival tape that I had never heard before and.

And one episode they did.

The final episode was a live recording as part of the Tribeca Film Festival in New York City.

So it was so much fun.

So Christina had four guests.

I was the first of four and she spent 20 minutes with each of us.

And it was just.

It was one of those highlight of my career moments is there on stage, there's this huge digital screen and there's a big picture of me and making gay history.

And Christine is a terrific interviewer.

So it was thrilling and her work is beautiful.

It's so interesting and brings that period of history to life so vividly.

Everything from the Briggs Initiative to Anita Bryant to the murder of Harvey Milk and what happened in the aftermath of that.

It really explains that period of history and how the tide was turned against the anti gay folks.

What the anti gay folks seem never to learn, and there are things we don't learn too, which is to never give up and that they're always going to be after us.

What the anti gay folks haven't learned is that when you come after us, all you do is inspire more LGBTQ people to come out and to organize and to fight back.

And we're already seeing a backlash to the backlash.

And that was, I think, the most important lesson from the series, that.

That Slate series.

So I urge people to listen to that.

That series.

It's just, it's Slow Burn is the podcast and it's on the Briggs Initiative, the current season.

Awesome.

Yeah.

And I'm so excited to see young people do this work.

And often they'll say to me they were inspired by my work, which makes me very happy.

I love that.

Yeah.

Well, that's good.

You're perhaps just passing the torch on.

Which is, yeah, yeah, I'm not going to be here forever.

And the older generations passed the ball to me, and I've had the chance to pass the ball on to the next.

You have absolutely done a phenomenal job, and I'm so inspired by you.

And I, again, I am so delighted that I've had this opportunity to talk to you and have you on the podcast and share for you to share your experience a little bit, a little peek into your experience with my audience.

So thank you so much.

Thank you, Heather.

And thank you for your work, which is so important, and to see another generation of parents become active and lead the way.

What you do is so essentially so.

Thank you.

Thank you.

You are more than welcome.

Oh, my goodness.

I can't imagine life any other way.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thanks.