You are listening to the we need to Talk About Asker podcast, and this is our conversation with Alex Malice, Travis Wood and Weston Auburn, co directors and the co writer, producer of the film the Travel Companion, premiering at this year's Tribeca.

If you had to write 30 pages alone, you might say, not this week.

You know, I'm overworked, or I don't have motivation.

But when you know that you have to show up to this preset meeting with just five pages, it actually feels more achievable.

There's this idea where sometimes you're talking about a project for years, and, like, there's a certain point where you gotta force yourself into action.

So I think there was a certain moment within the writing process where we were like, what if this companion status was actually not necessarily a positive?

But he thinks it is.

And I think as people watch, they're kind of.

I hope at some point going, oh, man, this dude kind of sucks.

Like, why is he doing this?

And then I hope they feel like that kind of could be me.

Like, I might have those impulses a little bit too.

I guess.

To start easy, you've made a narrative feature about a documentary filmmaker.

Was there something intentionally meta about that choice, or.

Yeah.

Was it just for the service of the story to say.

Yeah, kick it off.

Travis here to start.

You know, it's like they always say, write what you know, and Alex and I have a pretty deep background in the documentary film world having, you know, focused on that for many years.

So I think, like, in our head, when we were thinking of this character in this story, we were like, oh, I guess he's.

He's taken on that part of us.

The film industry itself can be at times, pretty.

I don't know how to put it insular in how it tells stories about itself.

Did you worry about.

Or how much did you think about that while making a film about filmmaking?

Yeah, that's a good question.

I mean, we definitely got some feedback and sort of were aware of it ourselves, of this idea of, like, inside Baseball, they call it, you know, like writing a film that's too much in the weeds too.

Too specific to a certain industry.

And I think we kept that in mind as much as we could.

And if it didn't.

If it didn't feel true, if it didn't feel honest in a way that would resonate with a larger crowd, we.

We generally avoided it.

So, you know, it's.

It's a film about a filmmaker, but I think it's also a film about an artist.

It's also a film about a young person trying to figure out their place in this world, you know, navigating a capitalist country, a society where things are, you know, often valued by how much money they make and, you know, what is success.

And these are.

These are themes that we hope are universal to everybody.

Yeah.

Because there is this preconception and myth about the glamorous filmmaker lifestyle that the wider audience has.

So, I guess, how realistic did you want to make Simon's struggling filmmaker experience?

And.

Yeah, what was it like depicting that?

Less of a romantic side of it?

I think, like, when it came to, like, Simon's, him struggling with the film.

I think often actually when we were writing the script, we were even struggling with what kind of filmmaker Simon is or was and what the movie was.

And I think.

I actually think that at one point we were like, we'll make it a documentary about walls.

And that was even maybe just placeholder until we thought of a.

A more interesting idea.

But then.

And.

But then I think we kind of fell in love with this idea of this very, you know, random, obscure documentary about walls.

And we kind of love the.

The humor behind that.

Yeah, I would just jump into and say that.

I think, you know, you're right.

Like, filmmaking.

Filmmaking is often portrayed, like, through the lens of Hollywood, where it's this like, yeah, glamorous celebrity or celebrity adjacent practice.

But our experience as independent filmmakers in New York and Western Chicago is like.

Is like, couldn't be further from that.

It's.

It's constantly a hustle.

Finding money, finding equipment, location.

All of these things are like.

It's just an endless.

It's a.

It's an endless checklist of hurdles that we have to overcome.

And nobody, like, truly, nobody comes to you asking for these things.

Nobody's ever saying, man, like, you should really do this.

And here's all, here's, you know, I have all these extra resources.

You know, I found your name in the phone book, and you just seem like you deserve all this money.

Like, that just never happens.

And it's just.

It's such a battle.

And I think I feel like in writing this film, that was the easiest stuff for us to write because that's what we deal with, truly, every day.

Just trying to, like, motivate ourselves, you know, to push, to keep pushing and make these, you know, bring these things from an idea into reality.

That's like, it's.

It's an ongoing challenge.

And so seeing, you know, being able to project those things on assignment as a character was actually Kind of easy.

Yeah.

And it actually perfectly leads into my next question, because something that just before hitting record on the call and you, Alex joined us.

Travis was talking about Tribeca and all the networking that's going on.

And the film really well captures how much networking and being outgoing matters in filmmaking and.

Yeah, in the industry pretty much.

So how much of that pressure did you feel while making this, especially as a trio trying or aiming for a breakthrough, which with the Tribec over at Premiere, I think can savior there.

You know, I think that's a skill we all got better at throughout the process.

Like, I've never been too shy to ask for something, but I think trying to get this made really, like, honed in that skill.

And I think there's a lot of stuff you might assume, like the airport, where I think people are like, well, that's not going to happen.

How are you going to pull that off?

And I think we kind of all just started with, well, we got to ask.

We got to call up the airport.

We got to, like, just send that email.

We got to follow up.

So, like, it really, really honed it in for us like, that.

This is how you get stuff done.

You got to kind of ask a lot.

Yeah.

I'm also.

I also teach.

Teach filmmaking at school here in New York City, Hunter College.

And one thing I try and tell my students as much as possible is, like, there is a lot of talented people.

It's not hard to find people with talent.

The thing that separates oftentimes talented people from successful talented people is perseverance, is just sticking with it long enough.

If you just don't give up, if you just don't take no for an answer, if you just keep pushing, no matter what, you will get through to the next stage.

And it's like, I feel like this film really solidified that feeling in my head of, like, it doesn't make.

You know, maybe on paper, it doesn't quite make sense, or maybe you don't quite have enough money, or maybe you don't quite have the crew.

But if you just, like, believe, if you just manifest it and just push forward, no matter what, a lot of those things will happen.

And I think that also speaks to the strength of having this trio, that this interview right now is that we had each other to lean on, because doing this stuff alone is super hard.

You hit a wall, you get a rejection, and it's so easy to just be like, ah, all right, maybe this wasn't such a good idea.

Or, you know, maybe I'm not Worth it.

But when you have two other people to kind of be like, no, fuck that, let's keep going.

We have, you know, we got this, we got this.

That gave us the strength we needed to push through and just kind of will these things into existence.

Even when, like I said, nobody was asking for them.

And I would just, I would just say like within, like networking or asking for things is, I think we kind of decided there's like a rule of threes where oftentimes people can ignore.

People will ignore maybe those first two emails, but by the third they know that you're just going to keep emailing.

So they're going to give you, at that point they're going to give you an answer which is yes or no.

So yeah, just keep on knocking on those doors.

Wes.

I would actually call it the rule of nines.

If, if, if I write, I will write up to nine emails without any response.

And there was a couple cases where I'm looking back in my inbox, I'm like, damn, I wrote this person like seven times following up.

And then they responded and then they like gave me the answer that I needed.

And it's like, you just gotta remember what it's like to be on the receiving end of that stuff and sometimes just keep pushing until you get a hard no, and even then maybe push a little more.

There is something truly beautiful about seeing Alex in conversation with himself on these email chains, as no one has replied and he's still, the dialogue is still there.

It feels nice and warm, but it almost feels as though they have replied even though they haven't.

The number of ways that I've found to politely say, hey, following up, like the variation hey, following up or hey, checking in.

Hi, hope your Tuesday is going well.

Just, you know, like I have like a whole Rolodex of responses.

Listen, I feel ya.

I was gonna say I'm stealing the rule of three, but I guess we are tripling it.

So.

Yeah, as long as it works.

Adam.

What's interesting is that the two main characters, Simon and Bruce, support each other, usually support each other despite having completely different careers, while the three of you are not only in the same business, but in such a close knit working relationship, collaboration.

So how does the three of you partnership dynamic compare to what we see on screen?

It's, I think it's a lot healthier than what you see on screen.

You know, when we were writing this, we knew that it was going to, things were going to change and maybe become quite a bit more tumultuous.

Quite a bit more tense.

And our relationship was smooth.

I mean, we.

It's a relationship built on trust.

And I think the huge advantage that we kind of touched on already is that, like, you can share the load.

You can share the burden of, like, when it came to the writing, instead of having to write 30 pages, you only had to write five pages.

And.

Cause you knew that there'd be two other guys coming to the table, you know, and it created that accountability where if you had to write 30 pages alone, you might say, not this week.

You know, I'm overworked, or I don't have motivation.

But when you know that you have to show up to this preset meeting with just five pages, it actually feels more achievable.

So, yeah, I mean, we also have not been friends since the third grade.

You know, we're like chosen friends.

Whereas maybe I think with the dynamic between Simon and Bruce, they're, you know, they're.

They are chosen, but the choice was made in the third grade.

And so, like, if things have changed since then, it.

It might be momentum is still carrying their friendship to a certain extent.

Yeah.

I would just say that, like, just the power of.

Of the three of us just probably really, really helped a lot in the screenwriting portion of this.

Just.

Yeah, we would all divide and conquer.

And then I think beyond that, you know, initially we were.

We.

When we were going to do this, they were going to direct and I was going to produce, and then just based on a bunch of stuff, you know, their producers on the film too, because, you know, everyone just brought their own strengths, whether that was, you know, Alex has probably the biggest Rolodex of New York filmmakers I know.

So just if that's tapping those resources for.

For advice for, you know, ways of working.

And then Travis.

I've never met someone more determined than Travis as far as just willing this film into action.

So I think the three of us, like, having three people be on exactly the same page is.

Is really helpful.

And then I think also with the three, if two agreed and one disagreed, it was just, you know, majority rules.

So that.

That always helped as well.

As far as the story goes, despite living together, Simon's relationship with Bruce is, thanks to the concept of this travel companion thing, is built on this tagging along dynamic.

So what interested you guys about exploring not even how a new romantic relationship can threaten that kind of arrangement, but how it can bring up already existing tensions?

Damn, that's a good question.

You guys have a quick answer for that one?

Well, I think for us, like, you know, the travel companion idea came about because Travis has been a travel companion and.

And lost his companion status.

So that's, like, where that initially came from.

But then I think as we evolved the story, we started to think about, what if.

What if these flights were a crutch?

What if.

What if these flights were golden handcuffs in a way.

Right.

And they didn't actually enable Simon to make the movie, but they instead kind of held him back from it.

Just.

I think we're all guilty of this.

And we know there's this idea where sometimes you're talking about a project for years and, like, that's.

That's like, you know, your thing, like I've talked about.

I want to make a.

I want to make a documentary about lawn mowing for, like, three summers now.

And now I'm into my third summer.

And, you know, just there's a certain point where you gotta force yourself into action.

So I think there was a certain moment within the writing process where we were like, what if this companion status was actually not necessarily a positive?

But he thinks it is.

When it came to their relationship, we definitely didn't want it to come across as, like, well, a girl shows up and this messed up everything that was perfect.

Like, I think the way this played out was very much simmering through the friendship.

Like, that distance was already there.

Like, this was already kind of.

This was already in the works a little bit, that these guys had grown apart and were holding on to something maybe a little bit past its expiration.

And so Beatrice doesn't necessarily change anything for me.

I think she just kind of expedites what.

The inevitable in some ways.

Yeah.

I gotta say, Wes, that term of.

What was it?

Golden.

Golden handcuffs.

Handcuffs, yeah.

That's incredible, because with traveling in the picture, it's almost too good to be true.

Simon's setup of scouting locations worldwide for free.

But also, it can get just so completely overwhelming when you think about the pressure and everything that comes with it.

Yeah, it's like there's a feeling I feel like a lot of artists have where, like, when the idea is in your head, it's perfect.

You're like, oh, like, you know, a documentary about lawn mowing.

I'm gonna have all this access.

I'm gonna be able to shoot it in this way, on this schedule.

It's gonna go easy, and in your head it's perfect.

But the moment you pull it out and light starts to hit it and you start to hit these hurdles, it be kind of becomes kind of ugly.

And difficult and messy, just like art making is.

And that.

That part, that's really hard.

And I think on a certain level, we're all a little bit afraid of that.

And so keeping it in your head, keeping it as a potential, is a really comforting and safe way to move.

The downside, of course, being that you don't make it.

And I think for Simon, you know, in one of the early scenes, he's like.

It's the possibility.

The possibility feels so good.

And I feel like he's tapping into that.

He's expressing that.

That emotion a little bit of, like, the potential of the idea is almost more satisfying than actually stepping out the front door and starting to make it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And the film shows how Simon loses sight of what their friendship actually means beyond the travel perks.

And on the note of chosen friends.

And when exactly those friendships are formed, the obvious question arises with filmmaking in the picture as well, in your experiences.

How often do filmmakers sacrifice personal relationships for professional opportunities?

I don't know.

Hopefully not too much.

It's a pretty.

It's a pretty depressing proposition.

I mean, it's funny.

We put a lot of ourselves into this project, but we also.

There was almost an irony in the production of this film in that it was actually like, a really beautiful, fun, affirming project.

You know, we became closer friends, our crew was amazing, and we all became friends.

And this.

This has actually been like, a really satisfying process that we've gone on.

And if anything, I've added 20 new friends as opposed to losing one like Simon.

So hopefully, this is the exception, and most people out there are doing it the right way.

And I think, like.

I mean, it goes back to, like, networking right, at Tribeca or whatever.

Like, you know, we have friends in competition with our film.

And that, to me, is beautiful.

It's not.

It's not a.

It's not a bad thing.

We compare notes, we.

We talk about our experience, their experience.

And so I think try not to sacrifice your friends for anything, because those are probably the people that are going to bring you up, you know, with them, so.

100%.

And not to no longer chat on the character of Simon.

But he also, even though struggling with it, tends to make maybe not everything, but most of his life about film.

Film above all else, even friendships, and somewhat in the same ballpark as my previous question, as this, of course, can be a sustainable way of living.

How much of this obsession did you recognize in yourselves?

I think I recognize a lot, but I think it's all the worst parts combined into one go.

And I think as people watch, they're kind of, I hope at some point going, oh, man, this dude kind of sucks.

Like, why is he doing this?

And then I hope they feel like I kind of could be me.

Like, I might have those impulses a little bit, too.

And in some ways, I feel like he.

Simon, maybe goes for the.

What might be our first thought.

Like, I think very often we might have the thought that is like, this would be better for me in this moment.

And I think he kind of says that.

Whereas I think now we're all.

Maybe can put that aside and think a little more holistically about the situation.

Alex, Travis, Wes.

Guys, thank you so, so much for your time.

And, Wes, sign me up for that one more doc.

I'm more than interested.

I'll keep you posted.

I'll make it one day.

Thanks so much for having us.

This is a really enjoyable conversation.

You had some good questions, man.

Got me thinking.

That was great.

Thank you.