1 00:00:00,458 --> 00:00:01,251 And when you think about 2 00:00:01,251 --> 00:00:04,004 like you think about people that you know that have failed. 3 00:00:04,004 --> 00:00:07,507 It’s probably going to be in one of three areas. 4 00:00:07,507 --> 00:00:11,469 It's either money or power or sexuality. 5 00:00:11,594 --> 00:00:17,267 It's like those three things are the way are the places where the devil trips 6 00:00:17,267 --> 00:00:17,934 people up. 7 00:00:23,314 --> 00:00:24,107 Well, 8 00:00:24,107 --> 00:00:27,652 Merle Burkholder, welcome back to the Anabaptist Perspectives podcast. 9 00:00:27,694 --> 00:00:32,323 It has been, let's see, five years or so since we had you on the. 10 00:00:32,323 --> 00:00:34,451 Yeah, on Anabaptist perspectives. 11 00:00:34,451 --> 00:00:37,662 so it's great to have you down here in Tennessee in our little studio here. 12 00:00:37,996 --> 00:00:39,748 just a little bit about yourself. 13 00:00:39,748 --> 00:00:44,210 So you've spent quite a few decades in ministry, something like 45 years. 14 00:00:44,586 --> 00:00:47,964 You've been in church leadership, done a fair amount of teaching, Bible teaching 15 00:00:47,964 --> 00:00:48,882 and so forth. 16 00:00:50,050 --> 00:00:53,053 But there's a particular topic that is 17 00:00:53,511 --> 00:00:55,805 feels like, 18 00:00:55,805 --> 00:00:58,183 is gaining a lot of awareness lately. 19 00:00:58,183 --> 00:01:00,268 And that's the moral and ethical failure. 20 00:01:00,268 --> 00:01:04,522 There's a lot of high profile cases it feels like in the last number of years, 21 00:01:04,689 --> 00:01:08,610 we've seen that within different ministry leaders and so forth. 22 00:01:09,027 --> 00:01:12,697 So would you want to spend a moment just introducing that topic 23 00:01:12,697 --> 00:01:14,324 and then we'll get into it? 24 00:01:14,324 --> 00:01:15,241 Sure. Yeah. 25 00:01:15,241 --> 00:01:18,578 There's, like you say, there's just been some high profile 26 00:01:19,329 --> 00:01:23,958 failures and, you know, the distressing thing about it is that it 27 00:01:24,167 --> 00:01:30,006 gives so much just cause for people to discredit the church 28 00:01:30,006 --> 00:01:33,009 and and just, 29 00:01:33,843 --> 00:01:35,178 turn against Christ. 30 00:01:35,178 --> 00:01:38,973 It gives people a reason to say, well, that's why I'm not a Christian 31 00:01:38,973 --> 00:01:40,934 or that's why I don't get involved in the church, 32 00:01:40,934 --> 00:01:43,770 because you're just the same as everybody else. 33 00:01:43,770 --> 00:01:44,771 And and 34 00:01:45,730 --> 00:01:47,107 people are hypocrites. 35 00:01:47,107 --> 00:01:50,110 And so, and it also destroys. 36 00:01:50,235 --> 00:01:54,322 trust within the church because you start to wonder, well, 37 00:01:54,322 --> 00:01:56,658 can I really trust this person? Like, what about them? 38 00:01:56,658 --> 00:01:59,035 And what don't I know about their life? 39 00:01:59,035 --> 00:02:02,580 And here I'm, I'm following somebody or I'm really, 40 00:02:03,706 --> 00:02:06,709 you know, like somebody's writing or teaching and. 41 00:02:07,127 --> 00:02:08,503 But what don't I know about them. 42 00:02:08,503 --> 00:02:12,340 And, and so it just becomes and it causes 43 00:02:12,757 --> 00:02:15,969 when there's failure, it just causes so much pain and and 44 00:02:17,011 --> 00:02:19,973 and basically what it does to the name of Christ is what's, 45 00:02:19,973 --> 00:02:22,809 what's the big thing, really? 46 00:02:22,809 --> 00:02:22,934 yeah. 47 00:02:22,934 --> 00:02:28,565 and for me, it's, I really care about it because I care about the church. 48 00:02:28,565 --> 00:02:33,069 I care about Christianity and and the reputation of Christ. 49 00:02:33,069 --> 00:02:39,784 But also, for me, it gets really personal because my, my father was a man 50 00:02:39,784 --> 00:02:45,039 that I really looked up to, and he he was a good, good man. 51 00:02:45,039 --> 00:02:46,416 I he was my hero. 52 00:02:46,416 --> 00:02:48,168 Like, I wanted to be like him. Right. 53 00:02:48,168 --> 00:02:51,171 And so I just knew 54 00:02:51,379 --> 00:02:55,717 when I was a young boy that he was the person that I wanted to be like. 55 00:02:55,717 --> 00:02:57,677 And I looked at the way he related to people. 56 00:02:57,677 --> 00:03:03,057 I looked at the way he did things and and I wanted to be be like him. 57 00:03:03,308 --> 00:03:04,309 And, 58 00:03:05,351 --> 00:03:08,646 then when I was about, 35 years old, 59 00:03:08,980 --> 00:03:13,067 I came 60 00:03:13,193 --> 00:03:17,280 we were in Pennsylvania and I had been at my cousin's house. 61 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,283 Our family was at my cousin's house for dinner and 62 00:03:20,408 --> 00:03:23,786 came back to my parents house and walked in the door, 63 00:03:23,786 --> 00:03:26,789 and my mother was gone at the time and, 64 00:03:27,248 --> 00:03:29,125 with my sisters somewhere. 65 00:03:29,125 --> 00:03:31,544 And so my dad was home alone. 66 00:03:31,544 --> 00:03:34,255 And when I walked in, I could tell something wasn't right. 67 00:03:34,255 --> 00:03:36,257 And my family went to bed. 68 00:03:36,257 --> 00:03:39,302 And then my dad started telling me a story that I didn't know 69 00:03:40,386 --> 00:03:41,221 I couldn't believe. 70 00:03:41,221 --> 00:03:43,139 I didn't know if it was true. 71 00:03:43,139 --> 00:03:47,101 I didn't know if he had lost his mind, I wasn't sure, but he started telling me 72 00:03:48,269 --> 00:03:49,646 that. But it was true. 73 00:03:49,646 --> 00:03:53,524 And he was telling me he had been living part time with another woman and 74 00:03:53,524 --> 00:03:57,403 and he was drinking and into smoking and 75 00:03:57,403 --> 00:04:00,782 pornography and this and, 76 00:04:01,824 --> 00:04:04,244 yeah, it just 77 00:04:04,244 --> 00:04:06,788 it just knocked the props right out from under me. 78 00:04:06,788 --> 00:04:10,708 I just didn't I didn't know how to go on and 79 00:04:11,709 --> 00:04:14,712 and then all of a sudden, here was this person that I had wanted to be like. 80 00:04:14,796 --> 00:04:17,924 And all of a sudden, I don't want to be be like him. 81 00:04:18,633 --> 00:04:22,136 And so I had to look at my own life 82 00:04:22,136 --> 00:04:26,057 and figure out, like, so what things did I copy that 83 00:04:27,308 --> 00:04:31,521 are might be flaws and how do I go on 84 00:04:32,730 --> 00:04:35,733 living and just the pain of. 85 00:04:38,820 --> 00:04:42,782 Of being the son of this man that that had this failure. 86 00:04:42,782 --> 00:04:46,160 And I started to feel like, okay, I'm 35 87 00:04:46,786 --> 00:04:49,789 if I'm going to do what he did when I'm 60, 88 00:04:50,373 --> 00:04:55,336 I should quit now because it's like you're going downhill and you lose your brakes. 89 00:04:55,336 --> 00:04:57,338 The sooner you hit the ditch, the better. 90 00:04:57,338 --> 00:05:00,341 Better it is because the crash is going to be bigger later on. 91 00:05:00,341 --> 00:05:04,637 And so I was I was thinking well maybe I should just quit. 92 00:05:05,263 --> 00:05:08,266 And I didn't know quite what that look like, but 93 00:05:08,308 --> 00:05:11,311 I, I was really thinking, 94 00:05:11,644 --> 00:05:15,940 you know, here I am trying to do things for Christ and, and 95 00:05:16,941 --> 00:05:19,360 but maybe I should just quit. 96 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:23,906 And then one of my friends sat me down and said, Merle, like, don't do that. 97 00:05:23,906 --> 00:05:25,199 Like you. 98 00:05:25,199 --> 00:05:27,785 Your dad failed. 99 00:05:27,785 --> 00:05:30,538 And if you quit now, then you're going to let the devil 100 00:05:30,538 --> 00:05:32,915 win two victories out of one failure. 101 00:05:32,915 --> 00:05:34,417 And so don't do that. 102 00:05:34,417 --> 00:05:36,419 You need to figure out 103 00:05:36,419 --> 00:05:39,213 how to live life and how to do things and just keep on. 104 00:05:39,213 --> 00:05:41,174 And so that's kind of what I did. 105 00:05:41,174 --> 00:05:44,761 But it so the whole subject, like there's people who feel like, 106 00:05:45,178 --> 00:05:47,972 well, you know, I can I can look at pornography 107 00:05:47,972 --> 00:05:51,726 and it doesn't really and there's no victims. 108 00:05:51,726 --> 00:05:52,018 Right. 109 00:05:52,018 --> 00:05:55,021 It's just but. 110 00:05:56,314 --> 00:05:58,649 The pain of, of 111 00:05:58,649 --> 00:06:01,027 of failure, the pain of moral failure. 112 00:06:01,027 --> 00:06:03,738 It just affects so many people. 113 00:06:03,738 --> 00:06:06,407 And I've talked to men that, 114 00:06:07,742 --> 00:06:08,826 you know, the 115 00:06:08,826 --> 00:06:14,332 the most painful experience of their life is when they're father confessed 116 00:06:14,332 --> 00:06:19,295 being in pornography or moral failure, or some kind of ethical failure. 117 00:06:19,295 --> 00:06:22,256 And, to think about that. 118 00:06:22,465 --> 00:06:25,468 So with that 119 00:06:26,219 --> 00:06:30,431 I guess the obvious question is, you know, how do we protect ourselves 120 00:06:30,431 --> 00:06:33,434 from being that next person, you know, who brings that 121 00:06:33,559 --> 00:06:35,061 reproach on the name of Christ. 122 00:06:35,061 --> 00:06:41,067 And You're feeling of it just knocking all the props out from under under you 123 00:06:41,067 --> 00:06:45,279 and then saying, well, I should just quit now because this is just too dangerous. 124 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,533 Or, maybe not dangerous, but yeah, that imagery of losing the brakes 125 00:06:48,533 --> 00:06:53,204 as you're going downhill, I, I've heard similar sentiments from other people. 126 00:06:53,329 --> 00:06:54,789 And so how how do we avoid that? 127 00:06:54,789 --> 00:06:57,917 How do we do we continue going on, but also 128 00:06:58,167 --> 00:07:01,337 how do we protect ourselves from being that next person who does fail? 129 00:07:03,214 --> 00:07:07,301 Well, I've, I had to look at at my marriage. 130 00:07:07,301 --> 00:07:11,139 I had to look at, my relationships, 131 00:07:11,139 --> 00:07:14,142 that I have with other people and just 132 00:07:15,017 --> 00:07:17,061 think about, 133 00:07:17,061 --> 00:07:20,022 what boundaries do I have in my life. 134 00:07:20,356 --> 00:07:23,651 but one of the big things is just taking responsibility 135 00:07:23,901 --> 00:07:31,617 for for my own life and for how I deal with, with desires. 136 00:07:31,868 --> 00:07:36,289 And, you know, it's because so many people 137 00:07:36,289 --> 00:07:39,709 that that fall into moral failure, 138 00:07:40,126 --> 00:07:43,421 they shift the blame to somebody else, like, it's my wife's fault 139 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,091 or it's it's society's 140 00:07:47,091 --> 00:07:51,012 fault or, it's, you know, it's not me. 141 00:07:51,012 --> 00:07:53,890 I mean, you you got to do what you got to do or. 142 00:07:53,890 --> 00:07:56,893 Yeah, well, you know, 143 00:07:56,893 --> 00:08:00,229 it's somebody else's fault and taking responsibility, 144 00:08:00,229 --> 00:08:04,150 saying, no, I am responsible for my life 145 00:08:04,150 --> 00:08:07,904 and how I handle the challenges of my life. 146 00:08:07,987 --> 00:08:11,115 So my challenges with, 147 00:08:12,950 --> 00:08:14,702 my challenges with moral 148 00:08:14,702 --> 00:08:17,872 purity, my challenges with with how I handle 149 00:08:18,498 --> 00:08:21,501 sexual desire are not my wife's problem. 150 00:08:21,959 --> 00:08:24,128 They they're my issue. 151 00:08:24,128 --> 00:08:28,758 And I need to take responsibility for those my struggle with, 152 00:08:29,425 --> 00:08:32,803 with moral purity 153 00:08:32,803 --> 00:08:36,641 and with what I look at is not society's problem. 154 00:08:37,183 --> 00:08:41,354 It's not like the, the it's not women's problem. 155 00:08:41,687 --> 00:08:42,271 It's my. 156 00:08:42,271 --> 00:08:43,689 I have to take responsibility. 157 00:08:43,689 --> 00:08:46,442 This is this is my, I need to deal with. 158 00:08:46,442 --> 00:08:48,361 I need to be a man. 159 00:08:48,361 --> 00:08:52,031 And I need to take responsibility for how I deal 160 00:08:52,031 --> 00:08:55,993 with the with the challenges of my life. 161 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,163 And and desire isn't the problem. 162 00:08:59,330 --> 00:09:04,418 Because, in Buddhist thought, it's kind of like, well, 163 00:09:04,418 --> 00:09:07,838 if you can eliminate desire, then you can eliminate suffering. 164 00:09:08,256 --> 00:09:12,468 And to live is to suffer and and suffering is a result of desire. 165 00:09:12,468 --> 00:09:14,554 And so if you can eliminate desire, 166 00:09:14,554 --> 00:09:16,931 if you don't want anything, then you're never disappointed, right? 167 00:09:16,931 --> 00:09:19,308 So, So. 168 00:09:19,308 --> 00:09:22,562 But Christian thought isn't to eliminate desire. 169 00:09:23,646 --> 00:09:26,566 It's the transformation of desire. 170 00:09:26,566 --> 00:09:31,404 And where our, our hearts are transformed and we're and 171 00:09:32,029 --> 00:09:36,409 and if anything, in Christian thought, there's Desires are heightened. 172 00:09:36,534 --> 00:09:39,704 And Jesus said, I've come that they might have life and have it more abundantly. 173 00:09:39,704 --> 00:09:42,832 So it's like we want the things we want even more. 174 00:09:43,124 --> 00:09:46,377 And we're we're anticipating good things. 175 00:09:46,377 --> 00:09:50,590 And the call of God is a call to to more and to higher. 176 00:09:50,590 --> 00:09:55,052 And and so it's not it's not that we're trying to eliminate desire. 177 00:09:55,428 --> 00:10:00,016 So with, if I have a challenge with my weight 178 00:10:00,308 --> 00:10:03,603 and I'm trying to not be overweight, 179 00:10:04,312 --> 00:10:07,023 I don't berate myself for being hungry. 180 00:10:07,023 --> 00:10:09,358 Like, I don't say I have to stop being hungry. 181 00:10:09,358 --> 00:10:10,359 Like this is. 182 00:10:10,359 --> 00:10:12,528 So I wake up in the morning. I'm hungry again. 183 00:10:12,528 --> 00:10:13,195 I'm a failure. 184 00:10:13,195 --> 00:10:16,240 Like, I just like, I just have to stop being hungry. 185 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,493 And I pray and ask, God, don't ever let me be hungry again. 186 00:10:20,036 --> 00:10:22,288 But it's, desire isn't the problem. 187 00:10:22,288 --> 00:10:25,750 But it's like I have to meet that desire in healthy ways 188 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,211 I'm going to take responsibility to meet them in in healthy ways, 189 00:10:29,545 --> 00:10:32,506 I think is one of the one of the key things 190 00:10:34,467 --> 00:10:36,385 yeah, that that was one of the questions like, 191 00:10:36,385 --> 00:10:39,388 what are the things we need to recognize to move, 192 00:10:41,599 --> 00:10:43,267 to move ourselves to a higher plane? 193 00:10:43,267 --> 00:10:46,395 I guess I'm trying to think how to even phrase it, but, 194 00:10:46,729 --> 00:10:48,981 to remove these obstacles. 195 00:10:48,981 --> 00:10:50,983 And so you mentioned your responsibility. 196 00:10:50,983 --> 00:10:52,777 Taking responsibility for our actions. 197 00:10:52,777 --> 00:10:54,445 are there other things? 198 00:10:54,445 --> 00:10:55,905 Yeah. Another one is accountability. 199 00:10:55,905 --> 00:11:00,785 Having people that we're really talking to and who know what we're thinking 200 00:11:01,369 --> 00:11:06,957 and who know what we're experiencing, and I believe that every person ought 201 00:11:06,957 --> 00:11:12,797 to have somebody that has their thumb on our spiritual pulse that just knows, 202 00:11:13,589 --> 00:11:17,551 how we're doing and that if we start, 203 00:11:18,386 --> 00:11:21,347 if we start going, getting off track, 204 00:11:21,514 --> 00:11:24,684 they're going to be able to detect that and say, what's happening with you. 205 00:11:24,809 --> 00:11:28,979 And and where we're really being honest with what we're 206 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,024 what we're experiencing and what's going on in our lives. 207 00:11:32,024 --> 00:11:35,820 And I'm not talking about sharing lots of personal details 208 00:11:35,820 --> 00:11:39,865 with large groups of people, but just a couple of people that really know 209 00:11:41,117 --> 00:11:41,742 who we are. 210 00:11:41,742 --> 00:11:44,995 One of the things that happened with my dad is, 211 00:11:45,037 --> 00:11:48,916 he was, from a fairly large family, 212 00:11:48,916 --> 00:11:53,754 had a lot of brothers, and, but his brothers had all died except one. 213 00:11:53,754 --> 00:11:55,881 There was only one. 214 00:11:55,881 --> 00:11:58,884 One brother left and he had moved 215 00:11:59,176 --> 00:12:04,223 kind of out of his, the community where he was had grown up. 216 00:12:04,223 --> 00:12:07,309 So a lot of his childhood friends, he wasn't close to anymore. 217 00:12:07,309 --> 00:12:10,312 And he really wound up in a situation where he didn't have 218 00:12:10,688 --> 00:12:13,065 people that were really close to him, and 219 00:12:13,065 --> 00:12:16,277 he was on the road as a salesman, 220 00:12:16,277 --> 00:12:20,239 so he didn't have a lot of accountability for his time and what he was doing. 221 00:12:20,239 --> 00:12:23,242 And, and that opened up the door 222 00:12:23,325 --> 00:12:28,247 for him to get to do things that he shouldn't have been doing. 223 00:12:28,581 --> 00:12:31,584 But he didn't have anybody that really 224 00:12:31,959 --> 00:12:35,755 that really knew him well enough to know what was going on in his life. 225 00:12:35,755 --> 00:12:38,841 And our minds are so deceptive. 226 00:12:39,383 --> 00:12:42,470 Like, we can we can legitimize, 227 00:12:42,470 --> 00:12:45,765 we can rationalize things and say, well, 228 00:12:46,223 --> 00:12:50,436 you know, like McDonald's had a great advertising slogan 229 00:12:50,436 --> 00:12:54,648 a couple decades ago, or it was like, you deserve a break today. And 230 00:12:55,649 --> 00:12:58,277 and we can convince ourselves I deserve it. 231 00:12:58,277 --> 00:13:02,531 Like my wife was mean to me, or she said things 232 00:13:02,531 --> 00:13:05,534 that hurt me or I, 233 00:13:07,995 --> 00:13:09,330 I had a disappointment in life. 234 00:13:09,330 --> 00:13:10,498 And so I need comfort. 235 00:13:10,498 --> 00:13:12,833 I need and I deserve something. 236 00:13:12,833 --> 00:13:17,838 And our brains can just convince us that it's okay. 237 00:13:18,047 --> 00:13:23,302 And and when we when we just think our own thoughts and we don't have anybody 238 00:13:23,302 --> 00:13:28,057 giving us feedback on what we're thinking, we can get way off, way off track. 239 00:13:29,058 --> 00:13:33,312 And we need people that we're talking to that 240 00:13:33,687 --> 00:13:37,149 Give us feedback and tell us where we're where we're wrong, 241 00:13:37,149 --> 00:13:41,362 because people don't go out and just do stuff that they know is wrong 242 00:13:41,362 --> 00:13:43,823 or say, well, I'm going to go do something stupid today. 243 00:13:43,823 --> 00:13:49,370 They they have they have ways of saying, this is what I need to do or this is okay. 244 00:13:49,745 --> 00:13:51,747 That's a really good point, I don't know. 245 00:13:51,747 --> 00:13:52,623 I think about it. 246 00:13:52,623 --> 00:13:54,375 You wouldn't hear someone wake up in the morning 247 00:13:54,375 --> 00:13:56,836 and be like, I'm going to do this terrible thing. This dumb... 248 00:13:56,836 --> 00:13:57,962 Like knowing. 249 00:13:57,962 --> 00:14:00,297 This is going to destroy my life, but I'm going to go out and do it. 250 00:14:00,297 --> 00:14:01,632 Exactly. I'm going to do it anyways. 251 00:14:01,632 --> 00:14:06,512 and that makes a lot of sense because, humans are a little funny that way, 252 00:14:06,512 --> 00:14:10,266 where we can, seems to me at least we can convince ourselves of most anything. 253 00:14:10,558 --> 00:14:14,228 And it's like you basically have to have other people in your life 254 00:14:14,562 --> 00:14:17,565 that are close enough to you to to point out, wait, 255 00:14:17,606 --> 00:14:19,608 you're going, You're off track there. 256 00:14:19,608 --> 00:14:25,114 Is this another way of describing how we all need community? 257 00:14:25,114 --> 00:14:27,616 As in, we're not little islands of isolation, 258 00:14:27,616 --> 00:14:30,953 but we need other believers around us that we can trust. 259 00:14:30,953 --> 00:14:33,247 It feels like it's a fundamental in this. 260 00:14:34,707 --> 00:14:36,000 yeah. 261 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,294 Is that is am I am I going the right direction there? 262 00:14:38,294 --> 00:14:39,587 Absolutely. Yeah. 263 00:14:39,587 --> 00:14:39,920 Yeah. 264 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:44,592 It's why we need people in our lives, and people that know what we're thinking 265 00:14:45,301 --> 00:14:48,929 so that, we don't give ourselves permission 266 00:14:48,929 --> 00:14:51,932 to do things that that we really ought, not, 267 00:14:52,808 --> 00:14:54,977 ought not to do. 268 00:14:54,977 --> 00:14:57,396 as this sense of maybe being vulnerable 269 00:14:57,396 --> 00:15:00,399 with the right people around, like, 270 00:15:01,191 --> 00:15:02,192 what's the what's the word? 271 00:15:02,192 --> 00:15:07,323 open enough about our struggles to people you can trust or, 272 00:15:08,574 --> 00:15:09,825 yeah, that's powerful stuff. 273 00:15:09,825 --> 00:15:11,702 And one of the problems is, 274 00:15:11,702 --> 00:15:15,414 in the church can be that we feel like, well, nobody else has this. 275 00:15:15,414 --> 00:15:16,498 Yeah. Struggle. 276 00:15:16,498 --> 00:15:17,583 I'm the only one. 277 00:15:17,583 --> 00:15:20,586 And if I say this, people are going to be like, oh, 278 00:15:22,087 --> 00:15:22,588 that's. 279 00:15:22,588 --> 00:15:26,133 Yeah, he's really Dealing with something bad, 280 00:15:26,133 --> 00:15:30,888 and when in fact our our experience is pretty much the same. 281 00:15:31,138 --> 00:15:35,142 And and when we start talking to each other honestly and openly 282 00:15:35,142 --> 00:15:39,980 about what's going on in our minds and in our lives, it's not that different. 283 00:15:39,980 --> 00:15:42,983 because it's just. 284 00:15:43,484 --> 00:15:47,655 Well, it's the human experience is is pretty universal. 285 00:15:50,157 --> 00:15:51,450 So are there other things 286 00:15:51,450 --> 00:15:58,207 that we need to recognize to, to help and to help avoid these failures. 287 00:15:58,415 --> 00:16:02,211 Well, another another important piece I think is, is just finding 288 00:16:02,211 --> 00:16:06,090 a place of stability and having boundaries and saying here 289 00:16:06,090 --> 00:16:09,969 these are things that I don't do, and we need to know ourselves 290 00:16:10,552 --> 00:16:13,847 well enough to know what those boundaries need to be. 291 00:16:14,014 --> 00:16:16,684 They may not be the same for every person. 292 00:16:16,684 --> 00:16:19,895 So there's things that I may need to recognize. 293 00:16:19,895 --> 00:16:25,359 Others may do that, but I can't because I, I know when I do that 294 00:16:25,359 --> 00:16:29,113 or if I allow myself to do that, then I know what happens. 295 00:16:29,613 --> 00:16:32,324 And so I can't do that. 296 00:16:32,324 --> 00:16:37,705 And and then to to have those things defined 297 00:16:38,247 --> 00:16:41,542 and to share them with some other people so that other people know 298 00:16:41,542 --> 00:16:42,292 what the boundaries are. 299 00:16:42,292 --> 00:16:46,338 Because, again, we can convince ourselves, well, yeah, I don't do that. 300 00:16:46,338 --> 00:16:50,509 But in this case, yeah, it just makes the most sense. 301 00:16:50,509 --> 00:16:52,302 And so I'm going to do it. 302 00:16:52,302 --> 00:16:58,434 And then then we, we cross our boundaries and so, you know, there are things, 303 00:16:59,601 --> 00:17:02,146 like, I won't 304 00:17:02,146 --> 00:17:04,732 I won't ride alone in a car 305 00:17:04,732 --> 00:17:08,193 with a woman that's not my wife. 306 00:17:08,193 --> 00:17:11,572 And maybe other people can, but I, I'm not going to do that. 307 00:17:11,989 --> 00:17:13,907 And sometimes it, 308 00:17:13,907 --> 00:17:17,870 it makes it inconvenient and it might not be the most economical, 309 00:17:18,495 --> 00:17:20,956 thing, but I just know 310 00:17:20,956 --> 00:17:23,959 I'm not going to do that. 311 00:17:24,626 --> 00:17:30,215 and so to have those boundaries in place, and it's not that I don't trust women. 312 00:17:30,215 --> 00:17:35,471 It's like I, I know myself well enough to know that maybe I don't trust myself. 313 00:17:35,471 --> 00:17:36,180 Right. 314 00:17:36,180 --> 00:17:39,725 So but there again, it's that thing of taking responsibility 315 00:17:39,725 --> 00:17:42,728 for this is who I am, I have 316 00:17:42,728 --> 00:17:46,190 I need to know myself well enough to know these are things that I, 317 00:17:46,815 --> 00:17:50,360 I just I'm not going to do because I don't 318 00:17:50,944 --> 00:17:53,447 I don't want to put myself in a situation 319 00:17:54,990 --> 00:17:57,284 that is where I'm vulnerable. 320 00:17:57,284 --> 00:18:00,037 And and the truth of the matter is we're all vulnerable. 321 00:18:00,037 --> 00:18:02,873 It doesn't it doesn't, yeah. 322 00:18:02,873 --> 00:18:06,585 It doesn't matter how old we are, how what our position 323 00:18:06,585 --> 00:18:09,588 is, there's we're all 324 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,883 we all need to be cautious and be careful. 325 00:18:13,884 --> 00:18:16,011 So when we were talking about this 326 00:18:16,011 --> 00:18:19,431 last night, you know kind of prepping some of these episodes and things. 327 00:18:19,431 --> 00:18:24,686 The concept that came out is the devil's lack of creativity. 328 00:18:25,187 --> 00:18:27,231 Could you explain that a bit more. 329 00:18:27,231 --> 00:18:30,234 What are you referring to there and how does that apply to this? 330 00:18:30,234 --> 00:18:33,737 Yeah, the devil is not very creative like he uses the same tools 331 00:18:33,737 --> 00:18:35,739 over and over again. 332 00:18:35,739 --> 00:18:38,784 and when you think about, like you think about people that you know, that 333 00:18:38,784 --> 00:18:43,455 have failed, it’s probably going to be in one of three areas. 334 00:18:43,455 --> 00:18:48,418 It's either money or power or sex or sexuality. 335 00:18:48,418 --> 00:18:54,091 It's like those three things are the way or the places where the devil trips 336 00:18:54,091 --> 00:18:54,716 people up. 337 00:18:54,716 --> 00:19:00,139 And so the moral and ethical failures are usually related to, 338 00:19:00,722 --> 00:19:04,434 dishonesty in relation to acquiring wealth and getting more money. 339 00:19:04,434 --> 00:19:05,227 Or it's about, 340 00:19:06,854 --> 00:19:07,229 having 341 00:19:07,229 --> 00:19:10,649 power and positions of power and influence 342 00:19:10,858 --> 00:19:14,820 or it's or it's, moral failure related to sexuality. 343 00:19:15,279 --> 00:19:18,574 But we know what those tools are and we're not ignorant of them. 344 00:19:18,574 --> 00:19:19,825 We know what they are. 345 00:19:19,825 --> 00:19:24,079 and so we can be on guard in those areas 346 00:19:24,288 --> 00:19:27,666 and just know ourselves well enough to know 347 00:19:28,959 --> 00:19:32,838 where we're where we're vulnerable and take steps 348 00:19:32,838 --> 00:19:36,800 to, to to guard against those, those things. 349 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:41,471 It's not like, people don't fail in areas that nobody's ever failed in before. 350 00:19:42,264 --> 00:19:45,726 It's it's repetitive, stories. 351 00:19:45,726 --> 00:19:49,021 You look at the stories and it's, it's there's common 352 00:19:49,021 --> 00:19:52,024 themes in, in all of them. 353 00:19:53,066 --> 00:19:56,153 So the person that, the person that, 354 00:19:57,988 --> 00:20:01,575 has a position of power and has wealth is, 355 00:20:02,868 --> 00:20:04,578 is in is in a, in a bit of a 356 00:20:04,578 --> 00:20:07,873 vulnerable, position 357 00:20:09,124 --> 00:20:11,126 And having an awareness of that, 358 00:20:11,126 --> 00:20:14,087 if you find yourself in that situation say, 359 00:20:14,296 --> 00:20:16,757 I think of that a lot with the wealth thing, you know 360 00:20:16,757 --> 00:20:18,508 people that, you know, have a really successful 361 00:20:18,508 --> 00:20:22,262 business, it’s so easy to Get distracted with those things say or what. 362 00:20:22,638 --> 00:20:26,266 And of course, Jesus has a lot of things to say about wealth and how we use it. 363 00:20:26,892 --> 00:20:30,062 is this a self-awareness thing where back to having 364 00:20:30,062 --> 00:20:34,233 that community of people around you that that you trust and that can help 365 00:20:34,858 --> 00:20:37,611 point out, hey, be careful here 366 00:20:37,611 --> 00:20:39,655 am I, am I getting getting it right. 367 00:20:39,655 --> 00:20:40,489 Exactly, yeah. 368 00:20:40,489 --> 00:20:43,492 And that accountability 369 00:20:43,951 --> 00:20:46,954 putting myself under the authority 370 00:20:47,079 --> 00:20:50,791 of someone or recognizing that I am accountable to authority. 371 00:20:50,791 --> 00:20:53,627 There are those. I don't make the rules. 372 00:20:54,962 --> 00:20:59,299 I, I'm accountable to others and that is in 373 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:01,385 it can be in an accountability group. 374 00:21:01,385 --> 00:21:04,721 But beyond that, it's also to the government and, 375 00:21:05,639 --> 00:21:08,308 and those in, in leadership over me. 376 00:21:08,308 --> 00:21:13,272 So the person who is the husband and father in his family, he's 377 00:21:13,397 --> 00:21:16,400 the owner of his own business and he's a leader in the church, 378 00:21:17,567 --> 00:21:20,487 can kind of be 379 00:21:20,487 --> 00:21:25,075 at the top of, in every area of his life. 380 00:21:25,284 --> 00:21:29,329 But he really also needs to recognize, no, I'm under authority and 381 00:21:30,414 --> 00:21:33,417 and but if you're the person who makes all the rules, 382 00:21:33,458 --> 00:21:37,212 you can also feel like, well, I can make exceptions to the rules 383 00:21:37,212 --> 00:21:39,464 for myself, like other people need to do that. 384 00:21:39,464 --> 00:21:42,467 But I, I can give myself an exception. 385 00:21:42,801 --> 00:21:45,095 but it's a fallacy. 386 00:21:45,095 --> 00:21:47,389 It's not really true. 387 00:21:48,598 --> 00:21:51,601 a number of years ago, when I was in, 388 00:21:51,643 --> 00:21:52,936 well of course, I was the husband 389 00:21:52,936 --> 00:21:56,940 and father in my, my home, and I was in leadership, in the mission 390 00:21:56,982 --> 00:21:59,985 organization, and I was in leadership in the church. 391 00:22:00,777 --> 00:22:06,491 And I really felt a need for I need to remind myself that I am under authority. 392 00:22:07,034 --> 00:22:10,037 So for three years, 393 00:22:10,704 --> 00:22:13,332 I drove the speed limit, 394 00:22:13,332 --> 00:22:16,335 not over the speed limit for three years, 395 00:22:16,793 --> 00:22:19,963 and it drove me and everybody on the road crazy. 396 00:22:20,380 --> 00:22:23,717 And, but it was a way of reminding myself 397 00:22:24,176 --> 00:22:26,928 that I'm a person who follows the rules 398 00:22:26,928 --> 00:22:32,434 and and I don't I don't want to be a person who lives, who always lives over 399 00:22:32,434 --> 00:22:35,437 the edge of the rules just enough that I won't get punished. 400 00:22:35,604 --> 00:22:39,316 And, I don't I don't like when my children do that. 401 00:22:39,316 --> 00:22:42,027 I don't like when people in the organization or the church do that. 402 00:22:42,027 --> 00:22:45,614 I don't like when people they know what the rules are, but they just live 403 00:22:46,198 --> 00:22:49,159 just enough over the rules that that I won't do anything. 404 00:22:49,493 --> 00:22:51,036 And I don't want to be that kind of person. 405 00:22:51,036 --> 00:22:52,788 And I'm under the authority of the government. 406 00:22:52,788 --> 00:22:55,791 So the speed limit is posted by the government. 407 00:22:55,791 --> 00:22:59,419 And so I will I will drive the speed limit 408 00:22:59,878 --> 00:23:02,547 just as a reminder to myself 409 00:23:02,547 --> 00:23:05,759 that I am under authority and I need to obey. 410 00:23:05,926 --> 00:23:08,512 I can't make exceptions to the rules for myself. 411 00:23:08,512 --> 00:23:11,306 And so if we were really in a hurry, then my wife would drive. But, 412 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,603 That's that's actually that's pretty brilliant. 413 00:23:16,812 --> 00:23:18,146 I like that story. 414 00:23:18,146 --> 00:23:21,149 That's, that's a good reminder, I think, for all of us. 415 00:23:21,942 --> 00:23:26,071 So what would you say are some of these, fields of deception 416 00:23:26,071 --> 00:23:30,700 or these particularly fertile areas that the devil can manipulate 417 00:23:30,867 --> 00:23:34,621 and deceive us into, into some of these things and and so forth. 418 00:23:34,996 --> 00:23:37,999 Well, one can be a sense of identity who we really are. 419 00:23:38,291 --> 00:23:43,880 And when we start to see ourselves as, well, if we're the leader of a church 420 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:48,135 or the leader of an organization, and we don't separate 421 00:23:48,593 --> 00:23:51,847 who we are personally from that organization or that church, 422 00:23:51,847 --> 00:23:54,850 and it's just kind of all becomes intermingled and it's like, 423 00:23:55,350 --> 00:23:59,479 you know, so when people meet you, they think about, 424 00:24:00,063 --> 00:24:04,568 well, Anabaptist Perspectives and, and if, if that becomes your identity, 425 00:24:05,444 --> 00:24:09,114 then, you're vulnerable because you can be like, well, I'm 426 00:24:09,114 --> 00:24:13,034 this person that, you know, does this and, and, and you separate 427 00:24:13,618 --> 00:24:18,707 who you are personally from, it becomes morphed into the organization. And, 428 00:24:19,833 --> 00:24:22,794 and I think that creates, a vulnerability. 429 00:24:23,044 --> 00:24:25,589 and then also just loneliness. 430 00:24:25,589 --> 00:24:28,592 And when we're cut off from people 431 00:24:29,009 --> 00:24:33,346 and we don't have meaningful relationships and again, the pull of, 432 00:24:33,763 --> 00:24:36,766 the, the desire of the sexual desire 433 00:24:36,766 --> 00:24:40,687 is related to the desire for intimacy to be in meaningful relationship. 434 00:24:40,687 --> 00:24:45,233 And, and so when we don't have those, then I think we're, 435 00:24:45,901 --> 00:24:50,739 we're vulnerable to kind of a false satisfaction of, 436 00:24:51,031 --> 00:24:54,701 of desire and, and and really pornography is just 437 00:24:55,410 --> 00:24:57,954 a fake, intimacy. 438 00:24:57,954 --> 00:25:00,957 And it's, it's not a true intimacy, but 439 00:25:01,708 --> 00:25:04,127 it's sort of 440 00:25:04,127 --> 00:25:08,924 does something to, to at least, 441 00:25:09,424 --> 00:25:12,135 sate that desire for intimacy. 442 00:25:12,135 --> 00:25:16,264 And so it's, so loneliness is, 443 00:25:17,557 --> 00:25:18,391 is one of the issues. 444 00:25:18,391 --> 00:25:22,103 And one of the things that happened with my dad was he got he got into a situation 445 00:25:22,103 --> 00:25:27,275 where he didn't have a lot of meaningful relationships, which opened the door for, 446 00:25:28,109 --> 00:25:32,322 for him to, to, 447 00:25:32,322 --> 00:25:35,742 do what he did and get, get way off track. 448 00:25:35,951 --> 00:25:38,411 so that was one of the, 449 00:25:39,955 --> 00:25:40,580 the issues, 450 00:25:40,580 --> 00:25:43,583 and then sometimes, like if we feel like, 451 00:25:43,667 --> 00:25:47,462 well, I'm on the cutting edge, like I'm doing, I'm doing really, 452 00:25:48,088 --> 00:25:53,009 brave things and I'm out there, I yeah, I do things that other people can't do. 453 00:25:53,009 --> 00:25:55,136 I do things that not everybody does. 454 00:25:55,136 --> 00:25:59,307 But I'm an adventurous person, or I'm, I'm innovative or I'm 455 00:25:59,307 --> 00:26:03,812 an entrepreneur, and and I do these things that, that other people don't do. 456 00:26:04,646 --> 00:26:08,692 But there there's boundaries to being on the cutting edge 457 00:26:08,692 --> 00:26:11,528 and there's some cutting edges we shouldn't cross. 458 00:26:11,528 --> 00:26:14,823 there's some things that that we shouldn't do. 459 00:26:14,823 --> 00:26:18,326 And so just because we're adventurous people 460 00:26:18,326 --> 00:26:21,329 or we're entrepreneurs, but 461 00:26:21,538 --> 00:26:24,624 there's also the commitments 462 00:26:24,624 --> 00:26:28,962 we have to to Christ and to our families and, 463 00:26:29,796 --> 00:26:34,467 and so that can create a vulnerability if, if we just see ourselves 464 00:26:34,467 --> 00:26:38,513 as, yeah, I, I do things that not everybody can that everybody does. 465 00:26:38,513 --> 00:26:43,059 And, and I'm kind of, I'm kind of a unique person. 466 00:26:44,269 --> 00:26:46,730 And then we can give ourselves permissions to do things 467 00:26:46,730 --> 00:26:49,733 that that we would say, well, no, other people shouldn't do that. 468 00:26:50,734 --> 00:26:52,777 this sense of exceptionalism. Yeah. 469 00:26:52,777 --> 00:26:57,073 I'm exceptional or I as in, yeah, in the literal sense of 470 00:26:57,073 --> 00:27:01,202 I am an exception to whatever boundaries or rules. 471 00:27:01,202 --> 00:27:03,913 You know what I'm what I mean there, 472 00:27:03,913 --> 00:27:07,083 which, sitting here in, in the studio talking about it seems like, 473 00:27:07,083 --> 00:27:08,835 oh, that, that's silly, you know, 474 00:27:08,835 --> 00:27:10,879 how would anybody ever think that about themselves? 475 00:27:10,879 --> 00:27:14,799 And then when you're actually in the situation, suddenly I find myself 476 00:27:14,799 --> 00:27:18,720 at least often thinking, oh, yeah, yeah, I this is fine, this is okay. 477 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,806 And, about whatever 478 00:27:22,557 --> 00:27:27,270 a minor thing or oh, I'm an exception because blah blah blah of my position. 479 00:27:28,021 --> 00:27:30,565 It's just really, really easy to do that. 480 00:27:30,565 --> 00:27:31,566 You know. 481 00:27:31,566 --> 00:27:35,403 And another one can be like if you're the founder 482 00:27:35,403 --> 00:27:39,783 of an organization or if you're the, the, 483 00:27:41,326 --> 00:27:43,370 the lead person 484 00:27:43,370 --> 00:27:45,622 in a church, 485 00:27:45,622 --> 00:27:50,377 you can feel like I put, I have put in so much energy, 486 00:27:50,377 --> 00:27:53,380 I have sacrificed so much and 487 00:27:53,672 --> 00:27:56,675 I just deserve some compensation. 488 00:27:57,550 --> 00:27:58,802 yeah yeah. Exactly. 489 00:27:58,802 --> 00:28:02,889 Yes I think of this in I do a lot of trainings 490 00:28:02,889 --> 00:28:05,892 for different ministries and things as well. 491 00:28:05,975 --> 00:28:08,812 And it's, it's so easy to do that we're teaching, you know, teamwork 492 00:28:08,812 --> 00:28:12,065 and leadership and so easy when you're the leader of say a team. 493 00:28:12,065 --> 00:28:15,944 Okay, the team is doing this thing and you put all this work into it, okay. 494 00:28:15,944 --> 00:28:17,404 Now I don't 495 00:28:17,404 --> 00:28:20,365 I don't have to actually be fully involved because I've already done my bit 496 00:28:20,365 --> 00:28:24,452 and I could be an exception to whatever the thing may be. 497 00:28:24,452 --> 00:28:26,621 And that that attitude, wow. 498 00:28:26,621 --> 00:28:29,416 That can really lead places. That's not good. 499 00:28:29,416 --> 00:28:30,542 You know? 500 00:28:30,709 --> 00:28:35,088 So we've hit a couple of things in how the devil lacks creativity 501 00:28:35,088 --> 00:28:38,717 and what are the areas of deception we have to guard against. 502 00:28:38,758 --> 00:28:42,429 You've listed out different things as, to 503 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:44,889 help us in these situations. 504 00:28:44,889 --> 00:28:46,474 So stability, 505 00:28:46,474 --> 00:28:49,477 accountability and responsibility were all things you mentioned. 506 00:28:50,729 --> 00:28:54,107 But I want to pivot slightly and say, what do we do when the worst does happen, 507 00:28:54,107 --> 00:28:57,068 when there is some kind of failure, whatever that may be? 508 00:28:57,068 --> 00:29:00,280 And again, this is so relevant and current right now. 509 00:29:00,572 --> 00:29:03,575 I mean, it always has been, but it feels like particularly in the last 510 00:29:03,575 --> 00:29:06,578 ten years, a lot of really high profile cases of. 511 00:29:07,203 --> 00:29:10,665 Megachurch pastors or whatever, having so much responsibility 512 00:29:10,665 --> 00:29:14,961 and authority in a church, and they abuse it and they manipulate it 513 00:29:14,961 --> 00:29:17,964 to gain power or wealth or something else. 514 00:29:17,964 --> 00:29:20,967 What do we do in that situation? 515 00:29:20,967 --> 00:29:25,638 Well, one, first of all, the the, the highest priority 516 00:29:25,638 --> 00:29:30,310 is the protection of people in our church or in our organization. 517 00:29:30,310 --> 00:29:33,563 So in cases of abuse, 518 00:29:34,481 --> 00:29:37,650 the first priority has to be 519 00:29:38,693 --> 00:29:41,196 how do we stop whatever's happening? 520 00:29:41,196 --> 00:29:43,198 How do we protect the vulnerable? 521 00:29:43,198 --> 00:29:45,825 Because any, any group 522 00:29:45,825 --> 00:29:48,953 that doesn't protect the women and children 523 00:29:49,579 --> 00:29:53,249 in their group is destroying the next generation. 524 00:29:53,750 --> 00:29:57,712 And it's and so the protection of the vulnerable 525 00:29:58,171 --> 00:30:00,924 is primary. 526 00:30:00,924 --> 00:30:03,927 And, an organization or a church 527 00:30:04,093 --> 00:30:06,721 really needs to be a place where 528 00:30:06,721 --> 00:30:10,225 women and children feel like it's safe 529 00:30:10,767 --> 00:30:14,395 and that they have security and that they're not going to be 530 00:30:14,395 --> 00:30:15,480 taken advantage of. 531 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,483 And so the first step is to make sure 532 00:30:19,484 --> 00:30:21,194 that it stops 533 00:30:21,194 --> 00:30:24,072 and that it ends now, 534 00:30:24,072 --> 00:30:28,076 and that there's protection for those that are 535 00:30:28,660 --> 00:30:31,162 have been affected or abused 536 00:30:31,162 --> 00:30:35,083 by the person that is is, has failed. 537 00:30:35,166 --> 00:30:39,671 and if that's sexual abuse 538 00:30:39,671 --> 00:30:44,592 or abuse of power that there's boundaries put in place 539 00:30:45,134 --> 00:30:48,555 and things are made sure that that's going to stop if it's, 540 00:30:49,597 --> 00:30:53,226 related to theft of funds or embezzlement, 541 00:30:53,768 --> 00:30:58,815 that things are put in place to make sure nothing else is lost, and 542 00:30:59,107 --> 00:31:04,487 and that it's that everything, everything stops that's been happening. 543 00:31:05,154 --> 00:31:06,865 And then 544 00:31:06,865 --> 00:31:09,868 to work for, 545 00:31:10,243 --> 00:31:13,246 to work for the 546 00:31:13,246 --> 00:31:16,249 the healing of everybody involved, both 547 00:31:16,332 --> 00:31:21,838 those who are have been abused and the person who is the abuser. 548 00:31:22,005 --> 00:31:25,008 And sometimes we focus so much on 549 00:31:25,508 --> 00:31:29,178 the person who's the abuser and deal with them, 550 00:31:29,470 --> 00:31:34,851 that we don't get adequate help for those who have been abused. 551 00:31:34,851 --> 00:31:37,687 And I would say in 552 00:31:37,687 --> 00:31:40,690 my experiences 553 00:31:40,815 --> 00:31:44,485 with this kind of thing in the past, if there's things that, 554 00:31:45,236 --> 00:31:49,574 well, there are things that I regret and I wish I would have put more energy 555 00:31:49,782 --> 00:31:52,911 into making sure that those who were 556 00:31:53,828 --> 00:31:56,748 the victims of abuse really got 557 00:31:57,999 --> 00:31:58,625 the help 558 00:31:58,625 --> 00:32:01,628 that they they needed over the long term. 559 00:32:01,669 --> 00:32:04,631 And, 560 00:32:04,631 --> 00:32:08,217 so that is an important piece. 561 00:32:08,217 --> 00:32:11,220 And then the person who has failed 562 00:32:12,513 --> 00:32:15,308 needs, they needs like they 563 00:32:15,308 --> 00:32:18,603 all the things that led them to fail need to be reversed. 564 00:32:19,062 --> 00:32:20,730 So they need relationship. 565 00:32:20,730 --> 00:32:23,983 And we can tend to say, oh, that's so disgusting. 566 00:32:24,651 --> 00:32:26,945 I'm not going to talk to you. I don't have any... 567 00:32:26,945 --> 00:32:27,528 You're just. 568 00:32:27,528 --> 00:32:31,282 I mean, we can reject the person who's failed, 569 00:32:31,282 --> 00:32:37,080 and then they become more isolated and and the very things that cause that, 570 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:41,668 that opened the door for them to fail in the first place are increased. 571 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,004 And so what they need is they need relationship 572 00:32:45,004 --> 00:32:47,966 and they need people to come around them and, 573 00:32:48,675 --> 00:32:53,221 and and to begin to define a path to redemption. 574 00:32:53,972 --> 00:32:56,975 And that doesn't necessarily mean restoration 575 00:32:56,975 --> 00:33:00,645 in every position and everything, but it does mean there's 576 00:33:00,645 --> 00:33:04,190 there's life and there's hope and there's redemption. 577 00:33:05,024 --> 00:33:08,987 And we start to to help people to take steps toward 578 00:33:09,487 --> 00:33:13,074 toward redemption and the restoration of like, 579 00:33:13,074 --> 00:33:17,829 how do they re-earn trust and and I think that sometimes people 580 00:33:18,955 --> 00:33:22,291 who have failed, they have no clue of how 581 00:33:23,084 --> 00:33:27,588 what they've done has the sense of betrayal that people have 582 00:33:27,588 --> 00:33:30,758 and how it’s destroyed trust in their relationships and 583 00:33:32,427 --> 00:33:35,596 and to help them to begin to say, okay, how can that be rebuilt? 584 00:33:35,596 --> 00:33:39,017 How can I prove that I'm trustworthy, am I trustworthy, first of all. 585 00:33:39,434 --> 00:33:43,021 And then and and sometimes people can, 586 00:33:43,604 --> 00:33:46,566 and especially people in, 587 00:33:47,025 --> 00:33:50,319 in, moral failure can be so smooth. 588 00:33:50,862 --> 00:33:54,157 They're manipulative people to start with. 589 00:33:54,699 --> 00:33:57,827 And their personalities can be manipulative. 590 00:33:57,827 --> 00:34:00,830 And then sometimes they can work. 591 00:34:00,913 --> 00:34:04,042 What they want to do is just quickly fix everything. 592 00:34:04,042 --> 00:34:06,878 And yeah, okay, I'm good now, like, what's the checklist? 593 00:34:06,878 --> 00:34:09,380 you know, or something? Yeah. 594 00:34:09,380 --> 00:34:11,632 like, well, you know everything be forgiven. 595 00:34:11,632 --> 00:34:12,633 And so I repented. 596 00:34:12,633 --> 00:34:16,512 And so now you need to forgive me and just, you know, it's like, okay, now 597 00:34:16,512 --> 00:34:18,639 I'm good. And nothing ever happened. 598 00:34:18,639 --> 00:34:22,101 no it it's not it's not that simple. 599 00:34:22,101 --> 00:34:26,814 And what it does is it sets up a scenario then for them to repeat the same thing 600 00:34:26,814 --> 00:34:28,566 over and over again because people trust them. 601 00:34:28,566 --> 00:34:31,569 And then they then they're in a position where they can just 602 00:34:31,611 --> 00:34:33,279 they can just repeat it. 603 00:34:33,279 --> 00:34:39,243 And, and I, I've just talked to, A number of men who 604 00:34:40,286 --> 00:34:43,289 have, have failed morally and 605 00:34:44,082 --> 00:34:47,085 and they’re 606 00:34:47,335 --> 00:34:50,129 many, many of them are they’re repeat offenders. 607 00:34:50,129 --> 00:34:54,550 Like, they just they they'll do the same thing again 608 00:34:54,550 --> 00:34:58,096 and and it's and if there's too much trust 609 00:34:58,096 --> 00:35:01,099 and not enough of accountability 610 00:35:01,432 --> 00:35:04,435 and so they need that they need that path. 611 00:35:04,769 --> 00:35:06,813 There is a path to redemption. 612 00:35:06,813 --> 00:35:08,564 But it's not a quick. 613 00:35:08,564 --> 00:35:09,524 Yeah. You're forgiven. 614 00:35:09,524 --> 00:35:11,192 Everything's good now. 615 00:35:11,192 --> 00:35:15,279 It's it's a path of proving and walking 616 00:35:15,279 --> 00:35:19,075 in faithfulness day by day and step by step. 617 00:35:19,492 --> 00:35:23,538 And with, with my dad. 618 00:35:24,372 --> 00:35:28,376 I realized the next morning after he talked to me the night before, 619 00:35:28,376 --> 00:35:32,630 I realized the next morning, like he somebody needs to help him figure out 620 00:35:33,464 --> 00:35:37,510 how to put the pieces back together and how to get his life back on track. 621 00:35:37,844 --> 00:35:38,678 And so 622 00:35:39,679 --> 00:35:40,555 I sat down with him and 623 00:35:40,555 --> 00:35:43,558 said, okay, tell me, like, tell me everything. 624 00:35:43,641 --> 00:35:46,644 I want to know what's, 625 00:35:47,270 --> 00:35:51,440 and what are what you've done and tell me the whole story. 626 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:52,817 Get give me the all. 627 00:35:52,817 --> 00:35:55,820 And what can we do to start? 628 00:35:57,029 --> 00:35:57,947 What do you want to do? 629 00:35:57,947 --> 00:35:59,365 First of all, what's. 630 00:35:59,365 --> 00:36:00,533 What do you want to do. 631 00:36:00,533 --> 00:36:03,870 And and then how do we get there? 632 00:36:04,162 --> 00:36:07,206 and are the is is there anything that we can do today 633 00:36:07,748 --> 00:36:12,003 that will start the path back to where you want to, where you want to go, 634 00:36:12,962 --> 00:36:15,298 and just a few small steps, 635 00:36:15,298 --> 00:36:18,259 then begin to give some hope. 636 00:36:18,259 --> 00:36:20,678 Yeah, this can be fixed. 637 00:36:20,678 --> 00:36:25,349 And at first it looks like this huge mess and I've just destroyed my life. 638 00:36:25,516 --> 00:36:30,146 And, my family doesn't know what everything is. 639 00:36:30,146 --> 00:36:31,230 Everything's lost. 640 00:36:31,230 --> 00:36:35,026 And and that's where people can take off and say, well, I'm out of here. 641 00:36:35,026 --> 00:36:38,446 And, and, you know, I'll go start another life somewhere else. 642 00:36:38,529 --> 00:36:42,200 but to just Put some 643 00:36:42,450 --> 00:36:45,828 even small steps to begin to put the pieces back together 644 00:36:46,078 --> 00:36:50,583 and start a path to where the person really wants, really wants to go 645 00:36:51,876 --> 00:36:54,879 is, is important. 646 00:36:55,504 --> 00:36:59,050 that sounds like a lot of work and a lot of courage 647 00:36:59,300 --> 00:37:02,303 as well for for all parties involved. 648 00:37:03,179 --> 00:37:06,307 It is it is a lot of work and 649 00:37:06,682 --> 00:37:11,312 and it takes commitment of people that will walk with a person 650 00:37:12,647 --> 00:37:15,191 through that journey of redemption. 651 00:37:15,191 --> 00:37:19,028 And, and, you know, I like with my dad, 652 00:37:19,195 --> 00:37:22,198 I was able to, 653 00:37:22,615 --> 00:37:25,034 walk with him through that 654 00:37:25,034 --> 00:37:28,037 journey of redemption. And 655 00:37:28,287 --> 00:37:30,957 he recommitted his life to the Lord, and 656 00:37:30,957 --> 00:37:33,918 and he, he, 657 00:37:33,918 --> 00:37:37,213 did get put his life back together and 658 00:37:38,422 --> 00:37:41,133 and so But it was it was a 659 00:37:41,133 --> 00:37:43,511 it was a journey and it was a difficult journey. 660 00:37:43,511 --> 00:37:44,720 It was painful. 661 00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:47,974 And and it wasn't just a quick 662 00:37:48,599 --> 00:37:52,270 fix or a steady path out, there were 663 00:37:53,562 --> 00:37:54,397 other failures 664 00:37:54,397 --> 00:37:57,525 along the way, and disappointments. 665 00:37:58,401 --> 00:38:01,153 But it but redemption 666 00:38:01,153 --> 00:38:04,573 is possible and and redemption is 667 00:38:04,991 --> 00:38:08,369 is there and there's nobody that has out sinned the grace of God. 668 00:38:08,369 --> 00:38:10,037 It's just 669 00:38:10,037 --> 00:38:11,789 God's forgiveness is amazing. 670 00:38:11,789 --> 00:38:13,124 And we've all experienced it. 671 00:38:13,124 --> 00:38:16,877 And and it's there for those that, that, 672 00:38:16,877 --> 00:38:19,880 that desperately need it. And. 673 00:38:21,340 --> 00:38:24,427 So is there more on that you would have on 674 00:38:25,177 --> 00:38:28,180 what we can do when, when the worst happens, you know, 675 00:38:28,180 --> 00:38:31,267 be a part of that redemptive process and so forth. 676 00:38:32,143 --> 00:38:35,771 You know, part of it is, like, I think in a, in a church or in 677 00:38:35,771 --> 00:38:40,693 an organization, there can be a tendency to want to cover it over. 678 00:38:41,235 --> 00:38:44,488 And, you know, if people find out about this, 679 00:38:44,488 --> 00:38:47,700 it'll be embarrassing or it'll bring shame to, to us. 680 00:38:47,700 --> 00:38:52,913 And but just transparency and honesty and and obviously they're not all 681 00:38:52,913 --> 00:38:56,334 the details of everything that happened need to be known by everybody. 682 00:38:56,334 --> 00:39:01,964 But there does need to be a level of openness and transparency to say, 683 00:39:01,964 --> 00:39:04,967 this is what happened, this is what we're doing. 684 00:39:05,051 --> 00:39:08,804 And these these are the steps we're taking. 685 00:39:09,055 --> 00:39:12,016 And this is not acceptable 686 00:39:12,016 --> 00:39:14,685 In our organization or in our church. 687 00:39:14,685 --> 00:39:17,897 And, and, and establishing 688 00:39:17,897 --> 00:39:23,319 some policies or protocols for if something like this happens, 689 00:39:23,319 --> 00:39:26,781 this is what we do so that people know in advance 690 00:39:27,990 --> 00:39:31,952 what is going to happen if, 691 00:39:32,787 --> 00:39:36,749 if somebody fails, and so that you're not making it up 692 00:39:37,458 --> 00:39:40,461 on the spur of the moment saying, okay, now what do we do? 693 00:39:41,003 --> 00:39:45,091 Like just having like and knowing what the reporting requirements 694 00:39:45,091 --> 00:39:49,261 are in your state and knowing what you're what you're required to do. 695 00:39:50,554 --> 00:39:53,057 we had a, 696 00:39:53,057 --> 00:39:57,561 sexual abuse case in an organization that I was in leadership in. 697 00:39:57,895 --> 00:40:01,649 We didn't have a clear, clearly defined. 698 00:40:02,608 --> 00:40:04,068 And I mean, this was decades ago. 699 00:40:04,068 --> 00:40:06,946 We didn't have a clearly defined 700 00:40:06,946 --> 00:40:08,656 protocol, what we would do. 701 00:40:08,656 --> 00:40:13,786 And so we were discussing, do we report this 702 00:40:13,786 --> 00:40:16,122 or do we just deal with it internally? 703 00:40:16,122 --> 00:40:18,624 What do we do? And, 704 00:40:18,624 --> 00:40:21,001 and so it took us about a week 705 00:40:21,001 --> 00:40:23,796 to decide what we were going to do because there were different opinions. 706 00:40:23,796 --> 00:40:29,552 And then when I went with the person who was the offender to the police 707 00:40:30,052 --> 00:40:33,764 to report it, For the first 45 minutes, 708 00:40:33,764 --> 00:40:37,476 I thought I was going to jail because I. 709 00:40:37,685 --> 00:40:43,357 The police let me know that waiting a week to report something is not appropriate, 710 00:40:43,566 --> 00:40:46,735 and that I should have been there within 24 hours. 711 00:40:47,778 --> 00:40:48,988 And after 712 00:40:48,988 --> 00:40:51,991 they realized that I was appropriately frightened 713 00:40:52,116 --> 00:40:55,327 and that I understood what I had done and where I had failed, 714 00:40:55,327 --> 00:40:59,790 then they turned their attention to the the person that I had brought in. 715 00:40:59,790 --> 00:41:05,087 And, and so I realized, so then we established a protocol saying, 716 00:41:05,337 --> 00:41:09,216 okay, like if something like this happens, this is what we will we will report it. 717 00:41:09,216 --> 00:41:10,676 This is who we’ll report it to. 718 00:41:10,676 --> 00:41:13,220 This is the time frame in which we’ll report it. 719 00:41:13,220 --> 00:41:16,223 These are the things we're not going to protect anybody from. 720 00:41:16,807 --> 00:41:20,311 From being arrested or prosecution. 721 00:41:20,311 --> 00:41:20,769 We're not. 722 00:41:20,769 --> 00:41:25,316 We're going to if somebody violates the laws, we're not. 723 00:41:26,442 --> 00:41:29,695 We're going to let the police or whatever take 724 00:41:30,863 --> 00:41:32,907 the action that that they're going to take. 725 00:41:32,907 --> 00:41:33,866 And, 726 00:41:34,867 --> 00:41:37,495 and one of our fears was that, 727 00:41:37,495 --> 00:41:41,123 if we report it, then Children's 728 00:41:41,123 --> 00:41:44,543 Aid is going to come in, take our children and put them into foster care. 729 00:41:44,877 --> 00:41:50,424 And but in talking to the Children's Aid, people. 730 00:41:51,008 --> 00:41:54,011 they were saying our concern is the protection of children. 731 00:41:54,136 --> 00:41:58,432 So if we feel like you're going to protect your children, then we're not going to. 732 00:41:58,766 --> 00:42:00,309 We're not going to take them. 733 00:42:00,309 --> 00:42:04,396 But if we feel like you're not going to protect your children, then we will. 734 00:42:04,396 --> 00:42:07,024 So if you tell us, you give us your protocol. 735 00:42:07,024 --> 00:42:08,901 These are the things we will do. 736 00:42:08,901 --> 00:42:10,819 If something like this happens, 737 00:42:10,819 --> 00:42:13,239 then we'll monitor whether you're doing those things. 738 00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:15,324 And as long as you're doing what you say you're going to do 739 00:42:15,324 --> 00:42:18,118 and you're protecting the children, then we'd rather have you do it 740 00:42:19,578 --> 00:42:20,329 than us. 741 00:42:20,329 --> 00:42:24,375 And so there is some safety and and security in that as well. 742 00:42:24,625 --> 00:42:28,212 But but yeah, knowing what you're going to do 743 00:42:28,921 --> 00:42:33,801 and then if there's failure just following your protocols and, 744 00:42:34,969 --> 00:42:37,972 and doing the things that, that need to be done. 745 00:42:40,015 --> 00:42:42,518 So this is all a pretty heavy topic, 746 00:42:42,518 --> 00:42:46,730 a pretty weighty thing that we, dare not take lightly. 747 00:42:47,481 --> 00:42:52,027 As we bring this episode to a close, is there anything you'd like to, say? 748 00:42:52,027 --> 00:42:55,155 In conclusion, what's something you'd like to leave with our audience? 749 00:42:56,156 --> 00:42:56,532 Yeah. 750 00:42:56,532 --> 00:43:02,371 One more thing on just in dealing with when there's a failure is recognizing that 751 00:43:02,580 --> 00:43:05,791 it's not just like, let's say in the case of sexual abuse, it's 752 00:43:05,791 --> 00:43:08,377 not just those who are sexually abused and the offender. 753 00:43:08,377 --> 00:43:11,880 It's like everybody in the group is affected. 754 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,883 And realizing this has destroyed trust 755 00:43:15,801 --> 00:43:18,304 in the whole group. 756 00:43:18,304 --> 00:43:21,265 And if it's a leader, it's 757 00:43:21,932 --> 00:43:24,727 like people have just lost 758 00:43:24,727 --> 00:43:27,354 their trust in leadership and recognize 759 00:43:27,354 --> 00:43:30,774 that we're in a we're in a pretty deep hole here, 760 00:43:31,609 --> 00:43:35,154 and this is going to take time, and we're all going to have to work together 761 00:43:35,279 --> 00:43:37,698 to rebuild trust. And it. 762 00:43:37,698 --> 00:43:40,701 It's not just a few people, it's it's the whole group 763 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:46,582 that really needs healing and really needs restoration of of trust. 764 00:43:47,583 --> 00:43:48,459 When those things happen. 765 00:43:48,459 --> 00:43:50,544 There's always, 766 00:43:50,544 --> 00:43:54,506 well, there's people that, there's people that judge and 767 00:43:54,965 --> 00:43:57,551 and just reject everything and say, well, 768 00:43:57,551 --> 00:44:00,846 that church or that organization, you know, they're a failure. 769 00:44:00,846 --> 00:44:03,140 And and then there's people that justify and say, 770 00:44:03,140 --> 00:44:05,476 no, no, really, they're they're good people. 771 00:44:05,476 --> 00:44:07,227 And they, you know, everything's okay. 772 00:44:07,227 --> 00:44:11,315 And, and and then there's, there's people that really have wise 773 00:44:11,315 --> 00:44:15,527 advice and, and, and they, they acknowledge. 774 00:44:16,737 --> 00:44:21,533 Yeah, it might be a good group of people, but there's also failure and 775 00:44:22,159 --> 00:44:24,203 and that needs to be dealt with honestly. 776 00:44:24,203 --> 00:44:28,707 And, and steps need to be taken for redemption and, 777 00:44:28,707 --> 00:44:31,710 and restoration of of trust. 778 00:44:32,294 --> 00:44:34,630 So as we bring this episode to a close. 779 00:44:34,630 --> 00:44:38,801 what's, one thing you'd like to leave with our audience? 780 00:44:39,301 --> 00:44:39,760 Yeah. 781 00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,638 Well, when failures happen, there's those that judge 782 00:44:42,638 --> 00:44:44,807 and those that justify and those that scorn. 783 00:44:44,807 --> 00:44:46,183 And then there's wise counselors. 784 00:44:48,352 --> 00:44:49,561 Yeah, 785 00:44:49,561 --> 00:44:52,606 well, thank you Merle for taking the time to share about this. 786 00:44:52,606 --> 00:44:54,441 This is a, heavy topic. 787 00:44:54,441 --> 00:44:57,444 It's a lot to think about, and I just. 788 00:44:57,611 --> 00:44:59,405 I guess 789 00:44:59,405 --> 00:45:02,157 The only thing we can say is 790 00:45:02,157 --> 00:45:05,327 that we would have the grace and wisdom for these things. 791 00:45:05,369 --> 00:45:06,870 These are these are difficult challenges. 792 00:45:06,870 --> 00:45:11,458 So I thank you for for coming on and sharing some of your own story as well. 793 00:45:11,458 --> 00:45:13,293 I appreciate that. 794 00:45:14,086 --> 00:45:17,256 Thanks for listening to this episode with Merle Burkholder. 795 00:45:17,464 --> 00:45:19,591 If you found this episode helpful, 796 00:45:19,591 --> 00:45:22,386 you should check out this other one that we did with Roseanne Bauman, 797 00:45:22,386 --> 00:45:26,598 where she addresses the topic of how do we respond in situations of abuse. 798 00:45:27,599 --> 00:45:30,394 If you like this podcast, leave us a rating and review. 799 00:45:30,394 --> 00:45:32,980 It really does help more people find our content. 800 00:45:32,980 --> 00:45:34,815 And of course, you can find everything 801 00:45:34,815 --> 00:45:38,861 we've released over on our website at anabaptistperspectives.org. 802 00:45:39,153 --> 00:45:42,364 Thanks again for listening, and we'll catch you in the next episode. 803 00:59:15,593 --> 00:59:18,721 Thanks for listening to this episode with Merle Burkholder. 804 00:59:18,930 --> 00:59:23,142 If you found this episode helpful, you can check out the other episodes 805 00:59:23,142 --> 00:59:26,646 we did with Rosanne Bowman, which address the topic of 806 00:59:26,688 --> 00:59:29,691 how do we respond in situations of abuse. 807 00:59:30,108 --> 00:59:33,152 If you enjoyed this podcast, leave us a rating and a review. 808 00:59:33,152 --> 00:59:35,863 It does help other people find what we're doing here. 809 00:59:35,863 --> 00:59:37,115 And of course, you can find 810 00:59:37,115 --> 00:59:40,702 our content on our website at Anabaptist Perspectives for good. 811 00:59:41,119 --> 00:59:44,122 Thanks again for listening, and we'll catch you in the next episode. 812 01:02:00,133 --> 01:02:00,883 High profile 813 01:02:00,883 --> 01:02:03,886 cases of moral failure disappoint many of us. 814 01:02:04,011 --> 01:02:07,515 In this episode, Merle Burkholder explains his personal experience 815 01:02:07,515 --> 01:02:09,016 with this disappointment. 816 01:02:09,016 --> 01:02:12,145 And how can we respond as individuals and churches? 817 01:21:34,306 --> 01:21:34,848 Let's see.