Speaker: 00:00:00

And when you think about

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like you think about people that you know

that have failed.

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It’s probably going to be

in one of three areas.

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It's either money or power or sexuality.

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It's like those three things are the way

are the places where the devil trips

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people up.

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Well,

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Merle Burkholder, welcome back

to the Anabaptist Perspectives podcast.

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It has been, let's see, five years

or so since we had you on the.

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Yeah, on Anabaptist perspectives.

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so it's great to have you down here

in Tennessee in our little studio here.

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just a little bit about yourself.

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So you've spent quite a few decades

in ministry, something like 45 years.

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You've been in church leadership, done

a fair amount of teaching, Bible teaching

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and so forth.

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But there's a particular topic that is

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feels like,

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is gaining a lot of awareness lately.

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And that's the moral and ethical failure.

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There's a lot of high profile cases

it feels like in the last number of years,

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we've seen that within different

ministry leaders and so forth.

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So would you want to spend a moment

just introducing that topic

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and then we'll get into it?

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Sure. Yeah.

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There's, like you say,

there's just been some high profile

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failures and, you know,

the distressing thing about it is that it

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gives so much just cause for people

to discredit the church

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and and just,

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turn against Christ.

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It gives people a reason to say, well,

that's why I'm not a Christian

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or that's

why I don't get involved in the church,

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because you're just

the same as everybody else.

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And and

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people are hypocrites.

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And so, and it also destroys.

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trust within the church

because you start to wonder, well,

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can I really trust this person? Like,

what about them?

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And what don't I know about their life?

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And here I'm, I'm following somebody

or I'm really,

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you know,

like somebody's writing or teaching and.

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But what don't I know about them.

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And, and so it just becomes and it causes

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when there's failure,

it just causes so much pain and and

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and basically what it does

to the name of Christ is what's,

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what's the big thing, really?

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yeah.

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and for me, it's, I really care about it

because I care about the church.

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I care about Christianity

and and the reputation of Christ.

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But also, for me, it gets really personal

because my, my father was a man

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that I really looked up to, and he

he was a good, good man.

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I he was my hero.

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Like, I wanted to be like him. Right.

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And so I just knew

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when I was a young boy that he was

the person that I wanted to be like.

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And I looked

at the way he related to people.

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I looked at the way he did things

and and I wanted to be be like him.

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And,

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then when I was about, 35 years old,

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I came

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we were in Pennsylvania

and I had been at my cousin's house.

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Our family was at my cousin's house

for dinner and

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came back to my parents

house and walked in the door,

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and my mother was gone at the time and,

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with my sisters somewhere.

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And so my dad was home alone.

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And when I walked

in, I could tell something wasn't right.

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And my family went to bed.

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And then my dad started telling me a story

that I didn't know

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I couldn't believe.

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I didn't know if it was true.

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I didn't know if he had lost his mind,

I wasn't sure, but he started telling me

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that. But it was true.

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And he was telling me he had been living

part time with another woman and

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and he was drinking and into smoking and

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pornography and this and,

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yeah, it just

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it just knocked the props

right out from under me.

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I just didn't

I didn't know how to go on and

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and then all of a sudden, here was

this person that I had wanted to be like.

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And all of a sudden,

I don't want to be be like him.

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And so I had to look at my own life

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and figure out, like,

so what things did I copy that

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are might be flaws and how do I go on

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living and just the pain of.

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Of being the son of this man

that that had this failure.

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And I started to feel like, okay, I'm 35

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if I'm going to do what he did

when I'm 60,

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I should quit now because it's like you're

going downhill and you lose your brakes.

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The sooner you hit the ditch, the better.

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Better it is because the crash

is going to be bigger later on.

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And so I was I was thinking

well maybe I should just quit.

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And I didn't know

quite what that look like, but

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I, I was really thinking,

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you know, here I am trying to

do things for Christ and, and

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but maybe I should just quit.

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And then one of my friends sat me down

and said, Merle, like, don't do that.

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Like you.

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Your dad failed.

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And if you quit now,

then you're going to let the devil

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win two victories out of one failure.

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And so don't do that.

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You need to figure out

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how to live life

and how to do things and just keep on.

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And so that's kind of what I did.

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But it so the whole subject,

like there's people who feel like,

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well, you know, I can

I can look at pornography

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and it doesn't really

and there's no victims.

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Right.

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It's just but.

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The pain of, of

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of failure, the pain of moral failure.

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It just affects so many people.

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And I've talked to men that,

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you know, the

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the most painful experience of their life

is when they're father confessed

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being in pornography or moral failure,

or some kind of ethical failure.

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And, to think about that.

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So with that

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I guess the obvious question is, you know,

how do we protect ourselves

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from being that next person,

you know, who brings that

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reproach on the name of Christ.

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And You're feeling of it just knocking

all the props out from under under you

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and then saying, well, I should just quit

now because this is just too dangerous.

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Or, maybe not dangerous, but yeah,

that imagery of losing the brakes

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as you're going downhill, I, I've heard

similar sentiments from other people.

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And so how how do we avoid that?

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How do we do

we continue going on, but also

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how do we protect ourselves

from being that next person who does fail?

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Well,

I've, I had to look at at my marriage.

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I had to look at, my relationships,

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that I have with other people and just

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think about,

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what boundaries do I have in my life.

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but one of the big things

is just taking responsibility

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for for my own life

and for how I deal with, with desires.

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And, you know, it's because so many people

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that that fall into moral failure,

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they shift the blame to somebody else,

like, it's my wife's fault

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or it's it's society's

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fault or, it's, you know, it's not me.

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I mean, you

you got to do what you got to do or.

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Yeah, well, you know,

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it's somebody else's fault

and taking responsibility,

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saying, no, I am responsible for my life

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and how I handle the challenges of my

life.

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So my challenges with,

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my challenges with moral

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purity,

my challenges with with how I handle

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sexual desire are not my wife's problem.

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They they're my issue.

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And I need to take responsibility

for those my struggle with,

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with moral purity

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and with what I look at is not society's

problem.

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It's not like the,

the it's not women's problem.

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It's my.

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I have to take responsibility.

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This is this is my, I need to deal with.

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I need to be a man.

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And I need to take responsibility

for how I deal

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with the with the challenges of my life.

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And and desire isn't the problem.

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Because, in Buddhist thought,

it's kind of like, well,

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if you can eliminate desire,

then you can eliminate suffering.

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And to live is to suffer

and and suffering is a result of desire.

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And so if you can eliminate desire,

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if you don't want anything,

then you're never disappointed, right?

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So, So.

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But Christian thought

isn't to eliminate desire.

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It's the transformation of desire.

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And where our,

our hearts are transformed and we're and

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and if anything, in Christian thought,

there's Desires are heightened.

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And Jesus said, I've come that they might

have life and have it more abundantly.

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So it's like we want the things

we want even more.

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And we're we're anticipating good things.

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And the call of God is a call to to more

and to higher.

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And and so it's not it's

not that we're trying to eliminate desire.

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So with,

if I have a challenge with my weight

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and I'm trying to not be overweight,

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I don't berate myself for being hungry.

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Like,

I don't say I have to stop being hungry.

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Like this is.

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So I wake up in the morning.

I'm hungry again.

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I'm a failure.

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Like, I just like,

I just have to stop being hungry.

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And I pray and ask, God, don't ever

let me be hungry again.

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But it's, desire isn't the problem.

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But it's like I have to meet

that desire in healthy ways

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I'm going to take responsibility

to meet them in in healthy ways,

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I think

is one of the one of the key things

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yeah, that

that was one of the questions like,

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what are the things we need to recognize

to move,

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to move ourselves to a higher plane?

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I guess I'm trying to think

how to even phrase it, but,

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to remove these obstacles.

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And so you mentioned your responsibility.

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Taking responsibility for our actions.

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are there other things?

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Yeah. Another one is accountability.

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Having people that we're really talking to

and who know what we're thinking

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and who know what we're experiencing,

and I believe that every person ought

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to have somebody that has their thumb

on our spiritual pulse that just knows,

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how we're doing and that if we start,

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if we start going, getting off track,

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they're going to be able to detect that

and say, what's happening with you.

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And and where we're really being honest

with what we're

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what we're experiencing

and what's going on in our lives.

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And I'm not talking about sharing

lots of personal details

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with large groups of people, but

just a couple of people that really know

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who we are.

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One of the things that happened

with my dad is,

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he was, from a fairly large family,

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had a lot of brothers, and,

but his brothers had all died except one.

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There was only one.

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One brother left and he had moved

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kind of out of his,

the community where he was had grown up.

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So a lot of his childhood friends,

he wasn't close to anymore.

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And he really wound up in a situation

where he didn't have

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people that were really close to him, and

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he was on the road as a salesman,

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so he didn't have a lot of accountability

for his time and what he was doing.

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And, and that opened up the door

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for him to get to do things

that he shouldn't have been doing.

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But he didn't have anybody that really

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that really knew him well enough to know

what was going on in his life.

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And our minds are so deceptive.

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Like, we can we can legitimize,

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we can rationalize things and say, well,

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you know, like McDonald's

had a great advertising slogan

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a couple decades ago, or it was like,

you deserve a break today. And

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and we

can convince ourselves I deserve it.

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Like my wife was mean to me,

or she said things

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that hurt me or I,

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I had a disappointment in life.

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And so I need comfort.

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I need and I deserve something.

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And our brains can just convince us

that it's okay.

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And and when we when we just think

our own thoughts and we don't have anybody

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giving us feedback on what we're thinking,

we can get way off, way off track.

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And we need people

that we're talking to that

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Give us feedback and tell us where

we're where we're wrong,

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because people don't go out

and just do stuff that they know is wrong

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or say, well,

I'm going to go do something stupid today.

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They they have they have ways of saying,

this is what I need to do or this is okay.

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That's a really good point, I don't know.

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I think about it.

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You wouldn't hear

someone wake up in the morning

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and be like, I'm going to do this

terrible thing. This dumb...

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Like knowing.

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This is going to destroy my life,

but I'm going to go out and do it.

250

00:14:00,297 --> 00:14:01,632

Exactly. I'm going to do it anyways.

251

00:14:01,632 --> 00:14:06,512

and that makes a lot of sense because,

humans are a little funny that way,

252

00:14:06,512 --> 00:14:10,266

where we can, seems to me at least we can

convince ourselves of most anything.

253

00:14:10,558 --> 00:14:14,228

And it's like you basically

have to have other people in your life

254

00:14:14,562 --> 00:14:17,565

that are close enough to you to

to point out, wait,

255

00:14:17,606 --> 00:14:19,608

you're going, You're off track there.

256

00:14:19,608 --> 00:14:25,114

Is this another way of describing

how we all need community?

257

00:14:25,114 --> 00:14:27,616

As in,

we're not little islands of isolation,

258

00:14:27,616 --> 00:14:30,953

but we need other believers around us

that we can trust.

259

00:14:30,953 --> 00:14:33,247

It feels like it's a fundamental in this.

260

00:14:34,707 --> 00:14:36,000

yeah.

261

00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,294

Is that is am I am I going

the right direction there?

262

00:14:38,294 --> 00:14:39,587

Absolutely. Yeah.

263

00:14:39,587 --> 00:14:39,920

Yeah.

264

00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:44,592

It's why we need people in our lives,

and people that know what we're thinking

265

00:14:45,301 --> 00:14:48,929

so that,

we don't give ourselves permission

266

00:14:48,929 --> 00:14:51,932

to do things that

that we really ought, not,

267

00:14:52,808 --> 00:14:54,977

ought not to do.

268

00:14:54,977 --> 00:14:57,396

as this sense of maybe being vulnerable

269

00:14:57,396 --> 00:15:00,399

with the right people around, like,

270

00:15:01,191 --> 00:15:02,192

what's the what's the word?

271

00:15:02,192 --> 00:15:07,323

open enough about our struggles to people

you can trust or,

272

00:15:08,574 --> 00:15:09,825

yeah, that's powerful stuff.

273

00:15:09,825 --> 00:15:11,702

And one of the problems is,

274

00:15:11,702 --> 00:15:15,414

in the church can be that we feel like,

well, nobody else has this.

275

00:15:15,414 --> 00:15:16,498

Yeah. Struggle.

276

00:15:16,498 --> 00:15:17,583

I'm the only one.

277

00:15:17,583 --> 00:15:20,586

And if I say

this, people are going to be like, oh,

278

00:15:22,087 --> 00:15:22,588

that's.

279

00:15:22,588 --> 00:15:26,133

Yeah,

he's really Dealing with something bad,

280

00:15:26,133 --> 00:15:30,888

and when in fact our

our experience is pretty much the same.

281

00:15:31,138 --> 00:15:35,142

And and when we start talking

to each other honestly and openly

282

00:15:35,142 --> 00:15:39,980

about what's going on in our minds

and in our lives, it's not that different.

283

00:15:39,980 --> 00:15:42,983

because it's just.

284

00:15:43,484 --> 00:15:47,655

Well, it's the human experience

is is pretty universal.

285

00:15:50,157 --> 00:15:51,450

So are there other things

286

00:15:51,450 --> 00:15:58,207

that we need to recognize to, to help

and to help avoid these failures.

287

00:15:58,415 --> 00:16:02,211

Well, another another important piece

I think is, is just finding

288

00:16:02,211 --> 00:16:06,090

a place of stability

and having boundaries and saying here

289

00:16:06,090 --> 00:16:09,969

these are things that I don't do,

and we need to know ourselves

290

00:16:10,552 --> 00:16:13,847

well enough

to know what those boundaries need to be.

291

00:16:14,014 --> 00:16:16,684

They may not be the same for every person.

292

00:16:16,684 --> 00:16:19,895

So there's things that I may need

to recognize.

293

00:16:19,895 --> 00:16:25,359

Others may do that, but I can't because I,

I know when I do that

294

00:16:25,359 --> 00:16:29,113

or if I allow myself to do that,

then I know what happens.

295

00:16:29,613 --> 00:16:32,324

And so I can't do that.

296

00:16:32,324 --> 00:16:37,705

And and then to

to have those things defined

297

00:16:38,247 --> 00:16:41,542

and to share them with some other people

so that other people know

298

00:16:41,542 --> 00:16:42,292

what the boundaries are.

299

00:16:42,292 --> 00:16:46,338

Because, again, we can convince ourselves,

well, yeah, I don't do that.

300

00:16:46,338 --> 00:16:50,509

But in this case,

yeah, it just makes the most sense.

301

00:16:50,509 --> 00:16:52,302

And so I'm going to do it.

302

00:16:52,302 --> 00:16:58,434

And then then we, we cross our boundaries

and so, you know, there are things,

303

00:16:59,601 --> 00:17:02,146

like, I won't

304

00:17:02,146 --> 00:17:04,732

I won't ride alone in a car

305

00:17:04,732 --> 00:17:08,193

with a woman that's not my wife.

306

00:17:08,193 --> 00:17:11,572

And maybe other people can,

but I, I'm not going to do that.

307

00:17:11,989 --> 00:17:13,907

And sometimes it,

308

00:17:13,907 --> 00:17:17,870

it makes it inconvenient

and it might not be the most economical,

309

00:17:18,495 --> 00:17:20,956

thing, but I just know

310

00:17:20,956 --> 00:17:23,959

I'm not going to do that.

311

00:17:24,626 --> 00:17:30,215

and so to have those boundaries in place,

and it's not that I don't trust women.

312

00:17:30,215 --> 00:17:35,471

It's like I, I know myself well enough

to know that maybe I don't trust myself.

313

00:17:35,471 --> 00:17:36,180

Right.

314

00:17:36,180 --> 00:17:39,725

So but there again, it's that thing

of taking responsibility

315

00:17:39,725 --> 00:17:42,728

for this is who I am, I have

316

00:17:42,728 --> 00:17:46,190

I need to know myself well enough to know

these are things that I,

317

00:17:46,815 --> 00:17:50,360

I just I'm not going to do because I don't

318

00:17:50,944 --> 00:17:53,447

I don't want to put myself in a situation

319

00:17:54,990 --> 00:17:57,284

that is where I'm vulnerable.

320

00:17:57,284 --> 00:18:00,037

And and the truth of the matter is

we're all vulnerable.

321

00:18:00,037 --> 00:18:02,873

It doesn't it doesn't, yeah.

322

00:18:02,873 --> 00:18:06,585

It doesn't matter

how old we are, how what our position

323

00:18:06,585 --> 00:18:09,588

is, there's we're all

324

00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,883

we all need to be cautious and be careful.

325

00:18:13,884 --> 00:18:16,011

So when we were talking about this

326

00:18:16,011 --> 00:18:19,431

last night, you know kind of prepping

some of these episodes and things.

327

00:18:19,431 --> 00:18:24,686

The concept that came out

is the devil's lack of creativity.

328

00:18:25,187 --> 00:18:27,231

Could you explain that a bit more.

329

00:18:27,231 --> 00:18:30,234

What are you referring to there

and how does that apply to this?

330

00:18:30,234 --> 00:18:33,737

Yeah, the devil is not very creative

like he uses the same tools

331

00:18:33,737 --> 00:18:35,739

over and over again.

332

00:18:35,739 --> 00:18:38,784

and when you think about, like

you think about people that you know, that

333

00:18:38,784 --> 00:18:43,455

have failed, it’s probably going to be

in one of three areas.

334

00:18:43,455 --> 00:18:48,418

It's either money or power

or sex or sexuality.

335

00:18:48,418 --> 00:18:54,091

It's like those three things are the way

or the places where the devil trips

336

00:18:54,091 --> 00:18:54,716

people up.

337

00:18:54,716 --> 00:19:00,139

And so the moral and ethical failures

are usually related to,

338

00:19:00,722 --> 00:19:04,434

dishonesty in relation to acquiring wealth

and getting more money.

339

00:19:04,434 --> 00:19:05,227

Or it's about,

340

00:19:06,854 --> 00:19:07,229

having

341

00:19:07,229 --> 00:19:10,649

power and positions of power and influence

342

00:19:10,858 --> 00:19:14,820

or it's or it's,

moral failure related to sexuality.

343

00:19:15,279 --> 00:19:18,574

But we know what those tools are

and we're not ignorant of them.

344

00:19:18,574 --> 00:19:19,825

We know what they are.

345

00:19:19,825 --> 00:19:24,079

and so we can be on guard in those areas

346

00:19:24,288 --> 00:19:27,666

and just know ourselves

well enough to know

347

00:19:28,959 --> 00:19:32,838

where we're where we're vulnerable

and take steps

348

00:19:32,838 --> 00:19:36,800

to, to to guard against those,

those things.

349

00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:41,471

It's not like, people don't fail in areas

that nobody's ever failed in before.

350

00:19:42,264 --> 00:19:45,726

It's it's repetitive, stories.

351

00:19:45,726 --> 00:19:49,021

You look at the stories and it's, it's

there's common

352

00:19:49,021 --> 00:19:52,024

themes in, in all of them.

353

00:19:53,066 --> 00:19:56,153

So the person that, the person that,

354

00:19:57,988 --> 00:20:01,575

has a position of power and has wealth is,

355

00:20:02,868 --> 00:20:04,578

is in is in a, in a bit of a

356

00:20:04,578 --> 00:20:07,873

vulnerable, position

357

00:20:09,124 --> 00:20:11,126

And having an awareness of that,

358

00:20:11,126 --> 00:20:14,087

if you find yourself

in that situation say,

359

00:20:14,296 --> 00:20:16,757

I think of that a lot

with the wealth thing, you know

360

00:20:16,757 --> 00:20:18,508

people that,

you know, have a really successful

361

00:20:18,508 --> 00:20:22,262

business, it’s so easy to Get distracted

with those things say or what.

362

00:20:22,638 --> 00:20:26,266

And of course, Jesus has a lot of things

to say about wealth and how we use it.

363

00:20:26,892 --> 00:20:30,062

is this a self-awareness thing

where back to having

364

00:20:30,062 --> 00:20:34,233

that community of people around you

that that you trust and that can help

365

00:20:34,858 --> 00:20:37,611

point out, hey, be careful here

366

00:20:37,611 --> 00:20:39,655

am I, am I getting getting it right.

367

00:20:39,655 --> 00:20:40,489

Exactly, yeah.

368

00:20:40,489 --> 00:20:43,492

And that accountability

369

00:20:43,951 --> 00:20:46,954

putting myself under the authority

370

00:20:47,079 --> 00:20:50,791

of someone or recognizing

that I am accountable to authority.

371

00:20:50,791 --> 00:20:53,627

There are those. I don't make the rules.

372

00:20:54,962 --> 00:20:59,299

I, I'm

accountable to others and that is in

373

00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:01,385

it can be in an accountability group.

374

00:21:01,385 --> 00:21:04,721

But beyond that,

it's also to the government and,

375

00:21:05,639 --> 00:21:08,308

and those in, in leadership over me.

376

00:21:08,308 --> 00:21:13,272

So the person who is the husband

and father in his family, he's

377

00:21:13,397 --> 00:21:16,400

the owner of his own business

and he's a leader in the church,

378

00:21:17,567 --> 00:21:20,487

can kind of be

379

00:21:20,487 --> 00:21:25,075

at the top of, in every area of his life.

380

00:21:25,284 --> 00:21:29,329

But he really also needs to recognize,

no, I'm under authority and

381

00:21:30,414 --> 00:21:33,417

and but if you're the person

who makes all the rules,

382

00:21:33,458 --> 00:21:37,212

you can also feel like, well,

I can make exceptions to the rules

383

00:21:37,212 --> 00:21:39,464

for myself,

like other people need to do that.

384

00:21:39,464 --> 00:21:42,467

But I, I can give myself an exception.

385

00:21:42,801 --> 00:21:45,095

but it's a fallacy.

386

00:21:45,095 --> 00:21:47,389

It's not really true.

387

00:21:48,598 --> 00:21:51,601

a number of years ago, when I was in,

388

00:21:51,643 --> 00:21:52,936

well of course, I was the husband

389

00:21:52,936 --> 00:21:56,940

and father in my, my home,

and I was in leadership, in the mission

390

00:21:56,982 --> 00:21:59,985

organization,

and I was in leadership in the church.

391

00:22:00,777 --> 00:22:06,491

And I really felt a need for I need to

remind myself that I am under authority.

392

00:22:07,034 --> 00:22:10,037

So for three years,

393

00:22:10,704 --> 00:22:13,332

I drove the speed limit,

394

00:22:13,332 --> 00:22:16,335

not over the speed limit for three years,

395

00:22:16,793 --> 00:22:19,963

and it drove me and everybody on the road

crazy.

396

00:22:20,380 --> 00:22:23,717

And, but it was a way of reminding myself

397

00:22:24,176 --> 00:22:26,928

that I'm a person who follows the rules

398

00:22:26,928 --> 00:22:32,434

and and I don't I don't want to be

a person who lives, who always lives over

399

00:22:32,434 --> 00:22:35,437

the edge of the rules

just enough that I won't get punished.

400

00:22:35,604 --> 00:22:39,316

And, I don't

I don't like when my children do that.

401

00:22:39,316 --> 00:22:42,027

I don't like when people

in the organization or the church do that.

402

00:22:42,027 --> 00:22:45,614

I don't like when people they know

what the rules are, but they just live

403

00:22:46,198 --> 00:22:49,159

just enough over the rules

that that I won't do anything.

404

00:22:49,493 --> 00:22:51,036

And I don't want to be

that kind of person.

405

00:22:51,036 --> 00:22:52,788

And I'm

under the authority of the government.

406

00:22:52,788 --> 00:22:55,791

So the speed limit is posted

by the government.

407

00:22:55,791 --> 00:22:59,419

And so I will I will drive the speed limit

408

00:22:59,878 --> 00:23:02,547

just as a reminder to myself

409

00:23:02,547 --> 00:23:05,759

that I am under authority

and I need to obey.

410

00:23:05,926 --> 00:23:08,512

I can't make exceptions

to the rules for myself.

411

00:23:08,512 --> 00:23:11,306

And so if we were really in a hurry,

then my wife would drive. But,

412

00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,603

That's

that's actually that's pretty brilliant.

413

00:23:16,812 --> 00:23:18,146

I like that story.

414

00:23:18,146 --> 00:23:21,149

That's, that's a good reminder,

I think, for all of us.

415

00:23:21,942 --> 00:23:26,071

So what would you say

are some of these, fields of deception

416

00:23:26,071 --> 00:23:30,700

or these particularly fertile areas

that the devil can manipulate

417

00:23:30,867 --> 00:23:34,621

and deceive us into, into

some of these things and and so forth.

418

00:23:34,996 --> 00:23:37,999

Well, one can be a sense of identity

who we really are.

419

00:23:38,291 --> 00:23:43,880

And when we start to see ourselves

as, well, if we're the leader of a church

420

00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:48,135

or the leader of an organization,

and we don't separate

421

00:23:48,593 --> 00:23:51,847

who we are personally

from that organization or that church,

422

00:23:51,847 --> 00:23:54,850

and it's just kind of all becomes

intermingled and it's like,

423

00:23:55,350 --> 00:23:59,479

you know, so when people meet you,

they think about,

424

00:24:00,063 --> 00:24:04,568

well, Anabaptist Perspectives and, and if,

if that becomes your identity,

425

00:24:05,444 --> 00:24:09,114

then, you're vulnerable

because you can be like, well, I'm

426

00:24:09,114 --> 00:24:13,034

this person that, you know,

does this and, and, and you separate

427

00:24:13,618 --> 00:24:18,707

who you are personally from, it becomes

morphed into the organization. And,

428

00:24:19,833 --> 00:24:22,794

and I

think that creates, a vulnerability.

429

00:24:23,044 --> 00:24:25,589

and then also just loneliness.

430

00:24:25,589 --> 00:24:28,592

And when we're cut off from people

431

00:24:29,009 --> 00:24:33,346

and we don't have meaningful relationships

and again, the pull of,

432

00:24:33,763 --> 00:24:36,766

the, the desire of the sexual desire

433

00:24:36,766 --> 00:24:40,687

is related to the desire for intimacy

to be in meaningful relationship.

434

00:24:40,687 --> 00:24:45,233

And, and so when we don't have those,

then I think we're,

435

00:24:45,901 --> 00:24:50,739

we're vulnerable

to kind of a false satisfaction of,

436

00:24:51,031 --> 00:24:54,701

of desire and,

and and really pornography is just

437

00:24:55,410 --> 00:24:57,954

a fake, intimacy.

438

00:24:57,954 --> 00:25:00,957

And it's, it's not a true intimacy, but

439

00:25:01,708 --> 00:25:04,127

it's sort of

440

00:25:04,127 --> 00:25:08,924

does something to, to at least,

441

00:25:09,424 --> 00:25:12,135

sate that desire for intimacy.

442

00:25:12,135 --> 00:25:16,264

And so it's, so loneliness is,

443

00:25:17,557 --> 00:25:18,391

is one of the issues.

444

00:25:18,391 --> 00:25:22,103

And one of the things that happened with

my dad was he got he got into a situation

445

00:25:22,103 --> 00:25:27,275

where he didn't have a lot of meaningful

relationships, which opened the door for,

446

00:25:28,109 --> 00:25:32,322

for him to, to,

447

00:25:32,322 --> 00:25:35,742

do what he did and get, get way off track.

448

00:25:35,951 --> 00:25:38,411

so that was one of the,

449

00:25:39,955 --> 00:25:40,580

the issues,

450

00:25:40,580 --> 00:25:43,583

and then sometimes, like if we feel like,

451

00:25:43,667 --> 00:25:47,462

well, I'm on the cutting edge,

like I'm doing, I'm doing really,

452

00:25:48,088 --> 00:25:53,009

brave things and I'm out there, I yeah,

I do things that other people can't do.

453

00:25:53,009 --> 00:25:55,136

I do things that not everybody does.

454

00:25:55,136 --> 00:25:59,307

But I'm an adventurous person,

or I'm, I'm innovative or I'm

455

00:25:59,307 --> 00:26:03,812

an entrepreneur, and and I do these things

that, that other people don't do.

456

00:26:04,646 --> 00:26:08,692

But there there's boundaries

to being on the cutting edge

457

00:26:08,692 --> 00:26:11,528

and there's some cutting edges

we shouldn't cross.

458

00:26:11,528 --> 00:26:14,823

there's some things that

that we shouldn't do.

459

00:26:14,823 --> 00:26:18,326

And so just

because we're adventurous people

460

00:26:18,326 --> 00:26:21,329

or we're entrepreneurs, but

461

00:26:21,538 --> 00:26:24,624

there's also the commitments

462

00:26:24,624 --> 00:26:28,962

we have to to Christ

and to our families and,

463

00:26:29,796 --> 00:26:34,467

and so that can create a vulnerability if,

if we just see ourselves

464

00:26:34,467 --> 00:26:38,513

as, yeah, I, I do things that not

everybody can that everybody does.

465

00:26:38,513 --> 00:26:43,059

And, and I'm kind of,

I'm kind of a unique person.

466

00:26:44,269 --> 00:26:46,730

And then we can give ourselves permissions

to do things

467

00:26:46,730 --> 00:26:49,733

that that we would say,

well, no, other people shouldn't do that.

468

00:26:50,734 --> 00:26:52,777

this sense of exceptionalism. Yeah.

469

00:26:52,777 --> 00:26:57,073

I'm exceptional

or I as in, yeah, in the literal sense of

470

00:26:57,073 --> 00:27:01,202

I am an exception

to whatever boundaries or rules.

471

00:27:01,202 --> 00:27:03,913

You know what I'm what I mean there,

472

00:27:03,913 --> 00:27:07,083

which, sitting here in, in the studio

talking about it seems like,

473

00:27:07,083 --> 00:27:08,835

oh, that, that's silly, you know,

474

00:27:08,835 --> 00:27:10,879

how would anybody ever think

that about themselves?

475

00:27:10,879 --> 00:27:14,799

And then when you're actually

in the situation, suddenly I find myself

476

00:27:14,799 --> 00:27:18,720

at least often thinking, oh, yeah, yeah, I

this is fine, this is okay.

477

00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,806

And, about whatever

478

00:27:22,557 --> 00:27:27,270

a minor thing or oh, I'm an exception

because blah blah blah of my position.

479

00:27:28,021 --> 00:27:30,565

It's just really, really easy to do that.

480

00:27:30,565 --> 00:27:31,566

You know.

481

00:27:31,566 --> 00:27:35,403

And another one can be like

if you're the founder

482

00:27:35,403 --> 00:27:39,783

of an organization or if you're the, the,

483

00:27:41,326 --> 00:27:43,370

the lead person

484

00:27:43,370 --> 00:27:45,622

in a church,

485

00:27:45,622 --> 00:27:50,377

you can feel like I put,

I have put in so much energy,

486

00:27:50,377 --> 00:27:53,380

I have sacrificed so much and

487

00:27:53,672 --> 00:27:56,675

I just deserve some compensation.

488

00:27:57,550 --> 00:27:58,802

yeah yeah. Exactly.

489

00:27:58,802 --> 00:28:02,889

Yes I think of this in

I do a lot of trainings

490

00:28:02,889 --> 00:28:05,892

for different ministries

and things as well.

491

00:28:05,975 --> 00:28:08,812

And it's, it's so easy to do that

we're teaching, you know, teamwork

492

00:28:08,812 --> 00:28:12,065

and leadership and so easy

when you're the leader of say a team.

493

00:28:12,065 --> 00:28:15,944

Okay, the team is doing this thing

and you put all this work into it, okay.

494

00:28:15,944 --> 00:28:17,404

Now I don't

495

00:28:17,404 --> 00:28:20,365

I don't have to actually be fully involved

because I've already done my bit

496

00:28:20,365 --> 00:28:24,452

and I could be an exception

to whatever the thing may be.

497

00:28:24,452 --> 00:28:26,621

And that that attitude, wow.

498

00:28:26,621 --> 00:28:29,416

That can really lead places.

That's not good.

499

00:28:29,416 --> 00:28:30,542

You know?

500

00:28:30,709 --> 00:28:35,088

So we've hit a couple of things

in how the devil lacks creativity

501

00:28:35,088 --> 00:28:38,717

and what are the areas of deception

we have to guard against.

502

00:28:38,758 --> 00:28:42,429

You've listed out different things as, to

503

00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:44,889

help us in these situations.

504

00:28:44,889 --> 00:28:46,474

So stability,

505

00:28:46,474 --> 00:28:49,477

accountability and responsibility

were all things you mentioned.

506

00:28:50,729 --> 00:28:54,107

But I want to pivot slightly and say,

what do we do when the worst does happen,

507

00:28:54,107 --> 00:28:57,068

when there is some kind of failure,

whatever that may be?

508

00:28:57,068 --> 00:29:00,280

And again,

this is so relevant and current right now.

509

00:29:00,572 --> 00:29:03,575

I mean, it always has been,

but it feels like particularly in the last

510

00:29:03,575 --> 00:29:06,578

ten years,

a lot of really high profile cases of.

511

00:29:07,203 --> 00:29:10,665

Megachurch pastors or whatever,

having so much responsibility

512

00:29:10,665 --> 00:29:14,961

and authority in a church,

and they abuse it and they manipulate it

513

00:29:14,961 --> 00:29:17,964

to gain power or wealth or something else.

514

00:29:17,964 --> 00:29:20,967

What do we do in that situation?

515

00:29:20,967 --> 00:29:25,638

Well, one, first of all, the the,

the highest priority

516

00:29:25,638 --> 00:29:30,310

is the protection of people in our church

or in our organization.

517

00:29:30,310 --> 00:29:33,563

So in cases of abuse,

518

00:29:34,481 --> 00:29:37,650

the first priority has to be

519

00:29:38,693 --> 00:29:41,196

how do we stop whatever's happening?

520

00:29:41,196 --> 00:29:43,198

How do we protect the vulnerable?

521

00:29:43,198 --> 00:29:45,825

Because any, any group

522

00:29:45,825 --> 00:29:48,953

that doesn't

protect the women and children

523

00:29:49,579 --> 00:29:53,249

in their group

is destroying the next generation.

524

00:29:53,750 --> 00:29:57,712

And it's

and so the protection of the vulnerable

525

00:29:58,171 --> 00:30:00,924

is primary.

526

00:30:00,924 --> 00:30:03,927

And, an organization or a church

527

00:30:04,093 --> 00:30:06,721

really needs to be a place where

528

00:30:06,721 --> 00:30:10,225

women and children feel like it's safe

529

00:30:10,767 --> 00:30:14,395

and that they have security

and that they're not going to be

530

00:30:14,395 --> 00:30:15,480

taken advantage of.

531

00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,483

And so the first step is to make sure

532

00:30:19,484 --> 00:30:21,194

that it stops

533

00:30:21,194 --> 00:30:24,072

and that it ends now,

534

00:30:24,072 --> 00:30:28,076

and that there's protection for those

that are

535

00:30:28,660 --> 00:30:31,162

have been affected or abused

536

00:30:31,162 --> 00:30:35,083

by the person that is is, has failed.

537

00:30:35,166 --> 00:30:39,671

and if that's sexual abuse

538

00:30:39,671 --> 00:30:44,592

or abuse of power that there's boundaries

put in place

539

00:30:45,134 --> 00:30:48,555

and things are made

sure that that's going to stop if it's,

540

00:30:49,597 --> 00:30:53,226

related to theft of funds or embezzlement,

541

00:30:53,768 --> 00:30:58,815

that things are put in place

to make sure nothing else is lost, and

542

00:30:59,107 --> 00:31:04,487

and that it's that everything,

everything stops that's been happening.

543

00:31:05,154 --> 00:31:06,865

And then

544

00:31:06,865 --> 00:31:09,868

to work for,

545

00:31:10,243 --> 00:31:13,246

to work for the

546

00:31:13,246 --> 00:31:16,249

the healing of everybody involved, both

547

00:31:16,332 --> 00:31:21,838

those who are have been abused

and the person who is the abuser.

548

00:31:22,005 --> 00:31:25,008

And sometimes we focus so much on

549

00:31:25,508 --> 00:31:29,178

the person

who's the abuser and deal with them,

550

00:31:29,470 --> 00:31:34,851

that we don't get adequate help

for those who have been abused.

551

00:31:34,851 --> 00:31:37,687

And I would say in

552

00:31:37,687 --> 00:31:40,690

my experiences

553

00:31:40,815 --> 00:31:44,485

with this kind of thing in the past,

if there's things that,

554

00:31:45,236 --> 00:31:49,574

well, there are things that I regret

and I wish I would have put more energy

555

00:31:49,782 --> 00:31:52,911

into making sure that those who were

556

00:31:53,828 --> 00:31:56,748

the victims of abuse really got

557

00:31:57,999 --> 00:31:58,625

the help

558

00:31:58,625 --> 00:32:01,628

that they they needed over the long term.

559

00:32:01,669 --> 00:32:04,631

And,

560

00:32:04,631 --> 00:32:08,217

so that is an important piece.

561

00:32:08,217 --> 00:32:11,220

And then the person who has failed

562

00:32:12,513 --> 00:32:15,308

needs, they needs like they

563

00:32:15,308 --> 00:32:18,603

all the things that led them to fail

need to be reversed.

564

00:32:19,062 --> 00:32:20,730

So they need relationship.

565

00:32:20,730 --> 00:32:23,983

And we can tend to say,

oh, that's so disgusting.

566

00:32:24,651 --> 00:32:26,945

I'm not going to talk to you.

I don't have any...

567

00:32:26,945 --> 00:32:27,528

You're just.

568

00:32:27,528 --> 00:32:31,282

I mean,

we can reject the person who's failed,

569

00:32:31,282 --> 00:32:37,080

and then they become more isolated

and and the very things that cause that,

570

00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:41,668

that opened the door for them to fail in

the first place are increased.

571

00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,004

And so what they need

is they need relationship

572

00:32:45,004 --> 00:32:47,966

and they need people

to come around them and,

573

00:32:48,675 --> 00:32:53,221

and and to begin

to define a path to redemption.

574

00:32:53,972 --> 00:32:56,975

And that doesn't

necessarily mean restoration

575

00:32:56,975 --> 00:33:00,645

in every position and everything,

but it does mean there's

576

00:33:00,645 --> 00:33:04,190

there's life

and there's hope and there's redemption.

577

00:33:05,024 --> 00:33:08,987

And we start to

to help people to take steps toward

578

00:33:09,487 --> 00:33:13,074

toward redemption

and the restoration of like,

579

00:33:13,074 --> 00:33:17,829

how do they re-earn trust

and and I think that sometimes people

580

00:33:18,955 --> 00:33:22,291

who have failed, they have no clue of how

581

00:33:23,084 --> 00:33:27,588

what they've done

has the sense of betrayal that people have

582

00:33:27,588 --> 00:33:30,758

and how it’s destroyed

trust in their relationships and

583

00:33:32,427 --> 00:33:35,596

and to help them to begin to say, okay,

how can that be rebuilt?

584

00:33:35,596 --> 00:33:39,017

How can I prove that I'm trustworthy,

am I trustworthy, first of all.

585

00:33:39,434 --> 00:33:43,021

And then and and sometimes people can,

586

00:33:43,604 --> 00:33:46,566

and especially people in,

587

00:33:47,025 --> 00:33:50,319

in, moral failure can be so smooth.

588

00:33:50,862 --> 00:33:54,157

They're manipulative people to start with.

589

00:33:54,699 --> 00:33:57,827

And their personalities

can be manipulative.

590

00:33:57,827 --> 00:34:00,830

And then sometimes they can work.

591

00:34:00,913 --> 00:34:04,042

What they want to do

is just quickly fix everything.

592

00:34:04,042 --> 00:34:06,878

And yeah, okay, I'm good now, like,

what's the checklist?

593

00:34:06,878 --> 00:34:09,380

you know, or something? Yeah.

594

00:34:09,380 --> 00:34:11,632

like, well,

you know everything be forgiven.

595

00:34:11,632 --> 00:34:12,633

And so I repented.

596

00:34:12,633 --> 00:34:16,512

And so now you need to forgive me

and just, you know, it's like, okay, now

597

00:34:16,512 --> 00:34:18,639

I'm good. And nothing ever happened.

598

00:34:18,639 --> 00:34:22,101

no it it's not it's not that simple.

599

00:34:22,101 --> 00:34:26,814

And what it does is it sets up a scenario

then for them to repeat the same thing

600

00:34:26,814 --> 00:34:28,566

over and over again

because people trust them.

601

00:34:28,566 --> 00:34:31,569

And then they then they're in a position

where they can just

602

00:34:31,611 --> 00:34:33,279

they can just repeat it.

603

00:34:33,279 --> 00:34:39,243

And, and I, I've just talked

to, A number of men who

604

00:34:40,286 --> 00:34:43,289

have, have failed morally and

605

00:34:44,082 --> 00:34:47,085

and they’re

606

00:34:47,335 --> 00:34:50,129

many,

many of them are they’re repeat offenders.

607

00:34:50,129 --> 00:34:54,550

Like, they just

they they'll do the same thing again

608

00:34:54,550 --> 00:34:58,096

and and it's and if there's too much trust

609

00:34:58,096 --> 00:35:01,099

and not enough of accountability

610

00:35:01,432 --> 00:35:04,435

and so they need that they need that path.

611

00:35:04,769 --> 00:35:06,813

There is a path to redemption.

612

00:35:06,813 --> 00:35:08,564

But it's not a quick.

613

00:35:08,564 --> 00:35:09,524

Yeah. You're forgiven.

614

00:35:09,524 --> 00:35:11,192

Everything's good now.

615

00:35:11,192 --> 00:35:15,279

It's it's a path of proving and walking

616

00:35:15,279 --> 00:35:19,075

in faithfulness

day by day and step by step.

617

00:35:19,492 --> 00:35:23,538

And with, with my dad.

618

00:35:24,372 --> 00:35:28,376

I realized the next morning

after he talked to me the night before,

619

00:35:28,376 --> 00:35:32,630

I realized the next morning, like he

somebody needs to help him figure out

620

00:35:33,464 --> 00:35:37,510

how to put the pieces back together

and how to get his life back on track.

621

00:35:37,844 --> 00:35:38,678

And so

622

00:35:39,679 --> 00:35:40,555

I sat down with him and

623

00:35:40,555 --> 00:35:43,558

said, okay, tell me, like,

tell me everything.

624

00:35:43,641 --> 00:35:46,644

I want to know what's,

625

00:35:47,270 --> 00:35:51,440

and what are what you've done

and tell me the whole story.

626

00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:52,817

Get give me the all.

627

00:35:52,817 --> 00:35:55,820

And what can we do to start?

628

00:35:57,029 --> 00:35:57,947

What do you want to do?

629

00:35:57,947 --> 00:35:59,365

First of all, what's.

630

00:35:59,365 --> 00:36:00,533

What do you want to do.

631

00:36:00,533 --> 00:36:03,870

And and then how do we get there?

632

00:36:04,162 --> 00:36:07,206

and are the is

is there anything that we can do today

633

00:36:07,748 --> 00:36:12,003

that will start the path back to where

you want to, where you want to go,

634

00:36:12,962 --> 00:36:15,298

and just a few small steps,

635

00:36:15,298 --> 00:36:18,259

then begin to give some hope.

636

00:36:18,259 --> 00:36:20,678

Yeah, this can be fixed.

637

00:36:20,678 --> 00:36:25,349

And at first it looks like this huge mess

and I've just destroyed my life.

638

00:36:25,516 --> 00:36:30,146

And, my family doesn't

know what everything is.

639

00:36:30,146 --> 00:36:31,230

Everything's lost.

640

00:36:31,230 --> 00:36:35,026

And and that's where people can take off

and say, well, I'm out of here.

641

00:36:35,026 --> 00:36:38,446

And, and, you know,

I'll go start another life somewhere else.

642

00:36:38,529 --> 00:36:42,200

but to just Put some

643

00:36:42,450 --> 00:36:45,828

even small steps

to begin to put the pieces back together

644

00:36:46,078 --> 00:36:50,583

and start a path to where the person

really wants, really wants to go

645

00:36:51,876 --> 00:36:54,879

is, is important.

646

00:36:55,504 --> 00:36:59,050

that sounds like a lot of work

and a lot of courage

647

00:36:59,300 --> 00:37:02,303

as well for for all parties involved.

648

00:37:03,179 --> 00:37:06,307

It is it is a lot of work and

649

00:37:06,682 --> 00:37:11,312

and it takes commitment of people

that will walk with a person

650

00:37:12,647 --> 00:37:15,191

through that journey of redemption.

651

00:37:15,191 --> 00:37:19,028

And, and, you know, I like with my dad,

652

00:37:19,195 --> 00:37:22,198

I was able to,

653

00:37:22,615 --> 00:37:25,034

walk with him through that

654

00:37:25,034 --> 00:37:28,037

journey of redemption. And

655

00:37:28,287 --> 00:37:30,957

he recommitted his life to the Lord, and

656

00:37:30,957 --> 00:37:33,918

and he, he,

657

00:37:33,918 --> 00:37:37,213

did get put his life back together and

658

00:37:38,422 --> 00:37:41,133

and so But it was it was a

659

00:37:41,133 --> 00:37:43,511

it was a journey

and it was a difficult journey.

660

00:37:43,511 --> 00:37:44,720

It was painful.

661

00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:47,974

And and it wasn't just a quick

662

00:37:48,599 --> 00:37:52,270

fix or a steady path out, there were

663

00:37:53,562 --> 00:37:54,397

other failures

664

00:37:54,397 --> 00:37:57,525

along the way, and disappointments.

665

00:37:58,401 --> 00:38:01,153

But it but redemption

666

00:38:01,153 --> 00:38:04,573

is possible and and redemption is

667

00:38:04,991 --> 00:38:08,369

is there and there's nobody that has out

sinned the grace of God.

668

00:38:08,369 --> 00:38:10,037

It's just

669

00:38:10,037 --> 00:38:11,789

God's forgiveness is amazing.

670

00:38:11,789 --> 00:38:13,124

And we've all experienced it.

671

00:38:13,124 --> 00:38:16,877

And and it's there for those that, that,

672

00:38:16,877 --> 00:38:19,880

that desperately need it. And.

673

00:38:21,340 --> 00:38:24,427

So is there more on

that you would have on

674

00:38:25,177 --> 00:38:28,180

what we can do

when, when the worst happens, you know,

675

00:38:28,180 --> 00:38:31,267

be a part of that redemptive process

and so forth.

676

00:38:32,143 --> 00:38:35,771

You know, part of it is, like,

I think in a, in a church or in

677

00:38:35,771 --> 00:38:40,693

an organization, there can be a tendency

to want to cover it over.

678

00:38:41,235 --> 00:38:44,488

And,

you know, if people find out about this,

679

00:38:44,488 --> 00:38:47,700

it'll be embarrassing

or it'll bring shame to, to us.

680

00:38:47,700 --> 00:38:52,913

And but just transparency and honesty and

and obviously they're not all

681

00:38:52,913 --> 00:38:56,334

the details of everything that happened

need to be known by everybody.

682

00:38:56,334 --> 00:39:01,964

But there does need to be a level

of openness and transparency to say,

683

00:39:01,964 --> 00:39:04,967

this is what happened,

this is what we're doing.

684

00:39:05,051 --> 00:39:08,804

And these

these are the steps we're taking.

685

00:39:09,055 --> 00:39:12,016

And this is not acceptable

686

00:39:12,016 --> 00:39:14,685

In our organization or in our church.

687

00:39:14,685 --> 00:39:17,897

And, and, and establishing

688

00:39:17,897 --> 00:39:23,319

some policies or protocols for

if something like this happens,

689

00:39:23,319 --> 00:39:26,781

this is what we do

so that people know in advance

690

00:39:27,990 --> 00:39:31,952

what is going to happen if,

691

00:39:32,787 --> 00:39:36,749

if somebody fails,

and so that you're not making it up

692

00:39:37,458 --> 00:39:40,461

on the spur of the moment saying,

okay, now what do we do?

693

00:39:41,003 --> 00:39:45,091

Like just having like and knowing

what the reporting requirements

694

00:39:45,091 --> 00:39:49,261

are in your state and knowing what you're

what you're required to do.

695

00:39:50,554 --> 00:39:53,057

we had a,

696

00:39:53,057 --> 00:39:57,561

sexual abuse case in an organization

that I was in leadership in.

697

00:39:57,895 --> 00:40:01,649

We didn't have a clear, clearly defined.

698

00:40:02,608 --> 00:40:04,068

And I mean, this was decades ago.

699

00:40:04,068 --> 00:40:06,946

We didn't have a clearly defined

700

00:40:06,946 --> 00:40:08,656

protocol, what we would do.

701

00:40:08,656 --> 00:40:13,786

And so we were discussing,

do we report this

702

00:40:13,786 --> 00:40:16,122

or do we just deal with it internally?

703

00:40:16,122 --> 00:40:18,624

What do we do? And,

704

00:40:18,624 --> 00:40:21,001

and so it took us about a week

705

00:40:21,001 --> 00:40:23,796

to decide what we were going to do

because there were different opinions.

706

00:40:23,796 --> 00:40:29,552

And then when I went with the person

who was the offender to the police

707

00:40:30,052 --> 00:40:33,764

to report it, For the first 45 minutes,

708

00:40:33,764 --> 00:40:37,476

I thought I was going to jail because I.

709

00:40:37,685 --> 00:40:43,357

The police let me know that waiting a week

to report something is not appropriate,

710

00:40:43,566 --> 00:40:46,735

and that I should have

been there within 24 hours.

711

00:40:47,778 --> 00:40:48,988

And after

712

00:40:48,988 --> 00:40:51,991

they realized

that I was appropriately frightened

713

00:40:52,116 --> 00:40:55,327

and that I understood what I had done

and where I had failed,

714

00:40:55,327 --> 00:40:59,790

then they turned their attention to the

the person that I had brought in.

715

00:40:59,790 --> 00:41:05,087

And, and so I realized,

so then we established a protocol saying,

716

00:41:05,337 --> 00:41:09,216

okay, like if something like this happens,

this is what we will we will report it.

717

00:41:09,216 --> 00:41:10,676

This is who we’ll report it to.

718

00:41:10,676 --> 00:41:13,220

This is the time frame

in which we’ll report it.

719

00:41:13,220 --> 00:41:16,223

These are the things

we're not going to protect anybody from.

720

00:41:16,807 --> 00:41:20,311

From being arrested or prosecution.

721

00:41:20,311 --> 00:41:20,769

We're not.

722

00:41:20,769 --> 00:41:25,316

We're going to

if somebody violates the laws, we're not.

723

00:41:26,442 --> 00:41:29,695

We're going to let the police

or whatever take

724

00:41:30,863 --> 00:41:32,907

the action

that that they're going to take.

725

00:41:32,907 --> 00:41:33,866

And,

726

00:41:34,867 --> 00:41:37,495

and one of our fears was that,

727

00:41:37,495 --> 00:41:41,123

if we report it, then Children's

728

00:41:41,123 --> 00:41:44,543

Aid is going to come in, take our children

and put them into foster care.

729

00:41:44,877 --> 00:41:50,424

And but in talking to the Children's

Aid, people.

730

00:41:51,008 --> 00:41:54,011

they were saying our concern

is the protection of children.

731

00:41:54,136 --> 00:41:58,432

So if we feel like you're going to protect

your children, then we're not going to.

732

00:41:58,766 --> 00:42:00,309

We're not going to take them.

733

00:42:00,309 --> 00:42:04,396

But if we feel like you're not going

to protect your children, then we will.

734

00:42:04,396 --> 00:42:07,024

So if you tell us,

you give us your protocol.

735

00:42:07,024 --> 00:42:08,901

These are the things we will do.

736

00:42:08,901 --> 00:42:10,819

If something like this happens,

737

00:42:10,819 --> 00:42:13,239

then we'll monitor

whether you're doing those things.

738

00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:15,324

And as long as you're doing

what you say you're going to do

739

00:42:15,324 --> 00:42:18,118

and you're protecting the children,

then we'd rather have you do it

740

00:42:19,578 --> 00:42:20,329

than us.

741

00:42:20,329 --> 00:42:24,375

And so there is some safety and

and security in that as well.

742

00:42:24,625 --> 00:42:28,212

But but yeah,

knowing what you're going to do

743

00:42:28,921 --> 00:42:33,801

and then if there's failure

just following your protocols and,

744

00:42:34,969 --> 00:42:37,972

and doing the things that,

that need to be done.

745

00:42:40,015 --> 00:42:42,518

So this is all a pretty heavy topic,

746

00:42:42,518 --> 00:42:46,730

a pretty weighty thing

that we, dare not take lightly.

747

00:42:47,481 --> 00:42:52,027

As we bring this episode to a close,

is there anything you'd like to, say?

748

00:42:52,027 --> 00:42:55,155

In conclusion, what's something

you'd like to leave with our audience?

749

00:42:56,156 --> 00:42:56,532

Yeah.

750

00:42:56,532 --> 00:43:02,371

One more thing on just in dealing with

when there's a failure is recognizing that

751

00:43:02,580 --> 00:43:05,791

it's not just like, let's say

in the case of sexual abuse, it's

752

00:43:05,791 --> 00:43:08,377

not just those who are sexually abused

and the offender.

753

00:43:08,377 --> 00:43:11,880

It's like everybody in

the group is affected.

754

00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,883

And realizing this has destroyed trust

755

00:43:15,801 --> 00:43:18,304

in the whole group.

756

00:43:18,304 --> 00:43:21,265

And if it's a leader, it's

757

00:43:21,932 --> 00:43:24,727

like people have just lost

758

00:43:24,727 --> 00:43:27,354

their trust in leadership and recognize

759

00:43:27,354 --> 00:43:30,774

that we're in a

we're in a pretty deep hole here,

760

00:43:31,609 --> 00:43:35,154

and this is going to take time, and we're

all going to have to work together

761

00:43:35,279 --> 00:43:37,698

to rebuild trust. And it.

762

00:43:37,698 --> 00:43:40,701

It's not just a few people,

it's it's the whole group

763

00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:46,582

that really needs healing

and really needs restoration of of trust.

764

00:43:47,583 --> 00:43:48,459

When those things happen.

765

00:43:48,459 --> 00:43:50,544

There's always,

766

00:43:50,544 --> 00:43:54,506

well, there's people that,

there's people that judge and

767

00:43:54,965 --> 00:43:57,551

and just reject everything and say, well,

768

00:43:57,551 --> 00:44:00,846

that church or that organization,

you know, they're a failure.

769

00:44:00,846 --> 00:44:03,140

And and then there's people

that justify and say,

770

00:44:03,140 --> 00:44:05,476

no, no, really,

they're they're good people.

771

00:44:05,476 --> 00:44:07,227

And they, you know, everything's okay.

772

00:44:07,227 --> 00:44:11,315

And, and and then there's, there's people

that really have wise

773

00:44:11,315 --> 00:44:15,527

advice and, and, and they,

they acknowledge.

774

00:44:16,737 --> 00:44:21,533

Yeah, it might be a good group of people,

but there's also failure and

775

00:44:22,159 --> 00:44:24,203

and that needs to be dealt with honestly.

776

00:44:24,203 --> 00:44:28,707

And, and steps need to be taken

for redemption and,

777

00:44:28,707 --> 00:44:31,710

and restoration of of trust.

778

00:44:32,294 --> 00:44:34,630

So as we bring this episode to a close.

779

00:44:34,630 --> 00:44:38,801

what's, one thing

you'd like to leave with our audience?

780

00:44:39,301 --> 00:44:39,760

Yeah.

781

00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,638

Well, when failures happen,

there's those that judge

782

00:44:42,638 --> 00:44:44,807

and those that justify

and those that scorn.

783

00:44:44,807 --> 00:44:46,183

And then there's wise counselors.

784

00:44:48,352 --> 00:44:49,561

Yeah,

785

00:44:49,561 --> 00:44:52,606

well, thank you Merle for taking the time

to share about this.

786

00:44:52,606 --> 00:44:54,441

This is a, heavy topic.

787

00:44:54,441 --> 00:44:57,444

It's a lot to think about, and I just.

788

00:44:57,611 --> 00:44:59,405

I guess

789

00:44:59,405 --> 00:45:02,157

The only thing we can say is

790

00:45:02,157 --> 00:45:05,327

that we would have the grace and wisdom

for these things.

791

00:45:05,369 --> 00:45:06,870

These are these are difficult challenges.

792

00:45:06,870 --> 00:45:11,458

So I thank you for for coming on and

sharing some of your own story as well.

793

00:45:11,458 --> 00:45:13,293

I appreciate that.

794

00:45:14,086 --> 00:45:17,256

Thanks for listening to this episode

with Merle Burkholder.

795

00:45:17,464 --> 00:45:19,591

If you found this episode helpful,

796

00:45:19,591 --> 00:45:22,386

you should check out this other one

that we did with Roseanne Bauman,

797

00:45:22,386 --> 00:45:26,598

where she addresses the topic of

how do we respond in situations of abuse.

798

00:45:27,599 --> 00:45:30,394

If you like this podcast,

leave us a rating and review.

799

00:45:30,394 --> 00:45:32,980

It really does help