All right, lawyer talk.

Off the record, on the air, taking on Landman, Billy Bob Thornton.

I've only seen the first season.

Please don't spoil this.

Taylor Sheridan.

Is that right?

Sheldon Sheridan.

Anyway, it's a TV show.

It's a good one, too.

It's sort of in the vein of Yellowstone.

And I like it.

You know, it's.

Look, I like Landman.

I watch it regularly.

But one of the episodes I saw recently, I caught up on a bunch of the back episodes.

And there's that lawyer.

I forget her character, her name, but.

She'S some big law.

Works for big oil, that kind of deal.

Yeah, sort of big law lawyer, but she's a little firecracker.

Yeah, yeah, she's the bulldog lawyer.

And there's a scene where one of the characters.

You haven't seen it, so I'm not gonna spoil it.

But there's a scene where one of the characters in the show is getting accused of murder.

Bold strategy, right?

And that character is confined.

He's called down to the police cop house, and he's taken to an interview room, and they start questioning him about this murder, and they are talking about whatever he did, how he did it, et cetera.

I won't go into details.

And not, spoiler alert.

I'm not going to spoil or I'm going to try not to.

And in the midst of this, the attorney character catches window, okay?

And somehow the cat gets out of the bag and a couple phone calls are made, and she's gonna come to the rescue.

So she's like, I'm on it.

And she gets in her car and hustles back to the police department, where she proceeds to barge in through the doors of the police department on the outside to get inside, and then through the lobby doors and then back into the interview room.

And even before that, the person who called her and said, hey, look, our character here is getting accused of murder and they're talking to him right now.

I forgot that the lawyer says, go back there now and put your phone on the table so I can, like, listen in, so I can talk to the police or do whatever.

It doesn't happen that way.

It can't happen that way.

It'll never happen that way.

It is.

Look, I don't mind a little bit of dramatization in the justice system and TV shows, that's what they do.

But don't think that your attorney can do this.

And here's how this often plays out in our world.

I get a call from mom and dad, and mom and dad say, Junior has been arrested and they've taken him to the police department.

Now, if they call me before that happens, sometimes they call me and they're getting a knock on the door and they want to arrest Junior.

I say, put him on the phone right now.

And what's the first thing I tell him?

He's not making any statements.

Don't talk to the police.

Yeah, but.

Yeah, but.

No, no, no.

Don't talk to the police.

I was just going to.

Don't talk to the police.

It's like, you don't know, smoking a bandit.

But you can think about it, but don't do it.

Don't talk to the police now.

But I don't always get to it that fast.

It's not always, you know, not always the little angel or devil on the shoulder saying, don't talk to the police.

The police have already taken the guy down to the police department, where they've got him safely confined in an interview room with a videotape running and an audio recording device cooking along.

And they start asking him questions.

The mom and dad are saying, well, can't you just go down there and stop it?

They teach you this in law school?

No, they did not teach us how to go down the police station and tell them to stop the interview.

This was not taught there.

You're not allowed to do it.

What do you mean you're not allowed?

They don't have to let me into the interview room.

The guy's under arrest.

He's in police custody.

And I can't just barge in like this lawyer on Landman did.

I can't just tell his mom to bust through there and put the phone down so I can yell at the cops for talking to my client.

I can't do it.

And there's a reason for that.

And it gets sort of confusing when you hear about Miranda rights.

You hear about your right to remain silent.

Anything you say can and will be used against you.

You have a right to a lawyer before you answer any questions.

You know, the standard recitation of rights that we all hear about.

But that's sort of prophylactic in nature.

Is that the right word?

The Supreme Court in Miranda, they didn't invent that.

They adopted it from some of the stuff, the practice that some of the states were using.

But they just sort of said, now you have to do this when you interview a suspect who's in custody.

They made it up out of whole cloth, basically.

There's no constitutional right for that.

And they sort of grounded it in two different constitutional rights.

Your fourth and fifth.

Close Sixth.

And you're in law school.

Come on.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm working on it.

They grounded it in two constitutional rights.

Your Fifth Amendment right to remain silent and your Sixth Amendment right to counsel.

And maybe even the 14th Amendment, if you want to apply to the states.

But at any rate, the problem with that is we.

We don't typically have a right to counsel until formal adversarial proceedings have begun.

And that's defined, generally speaking, as you've been indicted or there's at the preliminary hearing.

A preliminary hearing is a proceeding in many states and in federal court where the prosecutor has to come in and present evidence of probable cause to the judge.

You see it.

OJ Had a preliminary hearing.

Lincoln lawyer, they do prelims and Lincoln Lawyer out in California all the time.

My buddy up in Michigan, they get prelims.

We don't get them much around here, but that's when the right to counsel attaches.

So a suspect has just been arrested, taken to the police department for interrogation.

Right to counsel has an attack.

I can't just barge in and say, now, if my client had the wherewithal to say, look, lawyer, I want a lawyer.

I don't want to talk until I have a lawyer.

The police have to stop, even though the right to counsel hasn't attached.

And that, again, is grounded on the right to counsel, but it's also grounded on your right to remain silent under the Fifth Amendment.

The problem is you can waive those rights.

And the law has sort of evolved over time that the waivers can be sort of wishy washy.

And the police read you your rights.

Do you want to?

And they don't even ask you.

See, I always gripe about this.

I think the police should ask you.

All right, we've just read your rights.

You sure you want to talk?

And I think they should get a yes.

They don't do that.

They read the rights and they just start questioning.

And typically, courts will say, that's okay.

I'm not telling you I agree with it.

I'm just telling you what the law is.

But no, it's not Landman.

It's not Billy Bob Thornton.

It's not that firecracker of a lawyer coming in and saying, shut up.

You don't have to talk.

And you police, how dare you interview my client.

And not only that, I'm gonna sue you all for misconduct.

And I'm going to put this on Facebook, and I'm going to do all this stuff to make you humiliate.

You if you continue this, or yada, yada, yada.

It doesn't work that way.

The police are going to laugh if I go down to the police station and say, hey, look, I want to go in the room and be with my client.

I'm not saying you can't try.

I'm saying that they don't have to let me in.

They don't have to let me in.

Now, I have done this before where I've gotten calls and I've been.

I sort of try to get down there as fast as I can and.

But I've never successfully been able to barge into an interview room during an interrogation.

And the legal precedent is basically, they don't have to let me in constitutionally.

Now, let's talk about another scenario.

Okay.

I had a client who had been indicted.

That's the formal proceeding off the bat.

Yep.

And he was sitting in a jail cell.

The police go and deliver the indictment.

And this happened in, I don't want to say modern times, but maybe 15 years ago, long after these standards had been in place.

And because it was a. I tried the case once.

It was a hung jury, and they filed a new superseding indictment or something, there was some weird procedure that maybe confused the police or the detectives, I don't know.

But they went and talked to my client as they were giving him the indictment, and they interviewed him, and my client made some statements.

They weren't horrific statements for the case, but I, you know, I was like, wait a minute.

You have to be there.

He has a right to counsel.

It's not a Miranda problem.

Although they would have to still read Miranda rights, or they should.

But now it's also a right to counsel problem, because I have a right to be there.

Because formal adversarial proceedings had begun.

A different story.

Look, this gets confusing, and I say tongue in cheek about the TV shows.

Don't learn your rights from the TV shows.

Don't think that if you're sitting in the cop house getting interrogated, the lawyer's gonna be able to barge in and come to the right.

It's not gonna happen.

It's not gonna happen.

So what's your best advice?

Don't talk to the cops.

Don't talk to the cops.

You heard it here.

Not first, but again and again and again and again.

Lawyer talk off the record, on the air.

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