I have to say, I was so excited to talk to Bruce, and it

did not disappoint. We talked about all kinds

of things, including AI. You could almost see him switching

hats. He was like, OK, I'm going to put on my chief people officer

hat, and now I'm going to put on my chief legal hat, and now my IP hat, and

Bruce is a super interesting person. He has a wealth of

experience. He is currently the chief legal officer and corporate secretary

at Deep Cell, but he has held a variety of positions with

a variety of companies and just a really interesting guy to talk to.

So I think people are really going to like this episode. Bruce, thank you so

Awesome. Well, as always, our first question is, what did you want

Yeah, I spent a lot of my time trying to figure it out rather than what

I want to be, but what I like to do. And so with

all the activities that I sort of try, attempted, I sort

of came to a conclusion that I like to kind of

ask, they all grab at two things, right? One is that I like to help

people. I, for some reason, I found even

at seven years of age, that people have a tendency to

come and wanting to talk to me. They want to just talk

to me, ask for suggestion or just for me to listen. And

so I found that to be fascinating. And then if there's anything I can do to help people, even

just cousins, neighbors, and I don't know, parents, I

love doing that. And then the other one is I like to build things, events.

So there are a lot of broken watches. be put

together or sometimes they're together, but sometimes they're not. But

what I also enjoy doing, I find myself liking to do, is to

find some sort of pattern out of chaos. And

so you could be putting things together in a new way or the

same way, but I just enjoy that. And so now that I

am a chief legal officer at the license company, And

along this way, I have tried, again, dabble,

I've dabbled in engineering. I have dabbled in business development, of

course, legal, HR. And I

would like to think that I still have kept a little bit of that

It sounds like it. That is really very insightful as

a seven-year-old because I definitely was running around in my backyard pretending

to be a horse. So I'm really impressed

by, you know, how you went about that career exploration and

just staying true to yourself. You have a really interesting

background. We talk a lot about career paths, both here on the

podcast and we work with a lot of job seekers, just guiding

them and thinking about what is possible. Your career

path is really cool. And so I wonder if you could walk us through

the adult part of the career path, you know, from school

to where you are now, because you have a number of degrees and it's just really

Yeah, I started my academic

career thinking I was going to be a professor. I've

enjoyed the academia portion of it. I like to do research, I like

to find new things, learn new things. But shortly

after I started my graduate school at MIT, I

realized that I enjoy providing

advice as I end up just by coincidence as

an advice columnist at MIT Newspaper. And I found

myself enjoying that a lot more than the

lab itself. And that's

also where I started to realize that there is that human element that

I really, really liked. And again, if anything, that reminds me of

the seven-year-old Bruce, right? They wanted to work with people together,

but at the same time, still being able to build things and

use the science aspect of it. And

then so that's when I started to pivot to a more

legal career. And so

from that, that has been sort of my trajectory. And at the same time, I

never really lost sight of trying to try

different things, right? And then along the way, I picked up, as

I mentioned earlier, there's the business development aspect of HR

and others. And so rather than thinking that those

are sort of discrete milestones, I sort of see them as just, I

happen to be at the right time with

the right people at the right place who are willing

to invest in this person,

me, and explore a potential new venture together.

Yeah, how did you actually get into the biotech space? Because

Yeah, so I actually, my initial research

was actually on nanotechnology by physicists. And then it

was sort of, but I finished, once I finished my master's degree, I

decided to do something a little different. So I, for my PhD, I

went into medical engineering. And so that was

my first foray into a more bio area. And

it just happens. And again, when I was in a law firm, I

worked with clients in all types of spaces. I've worked with high tech

companies, semiconductors, emerging technologies, and biotech. And

it just somehow the biotech sort

of end up just stuck, right? And be it sort of the mentality, personality,

or just opportunity themselves. And I just ended up working

That makes sense to me because as somebody who likes to do

a variety of things myself, biotech is

nothing if it's not variety, right? There are so many

interesting technologies coming through and it's fast paced

and for better or worse, we do move around with

different companies because it's a bit volatile. But

for the right personality, that means a lot of fun experiences. So

Well, and I think it was Lynn Walder, who we spoke to on the podcast a

few weeks ago, who said the thing with biotech is even when you try to

get out, you always get sucked back in. So it's

like once it sinks its claws into you, you're just working in biotech. That's

And just to your point too, biotech is so broad, right? AI

is biotech. The company I'm right now at,

they try to marry AI engineering and biology all

together. So it's as broad as you want it to

Can you tell us a little bit about that? Let's dive into that topic because your

DeepCell is the company where I'm at right now. It's

using AI to image or understand

better the cell morphological features

so that we can better understand the different properties of cells. And

with the hope that maybe it will provide

better indications or information that

might lead to treatments and all that cool stuff down

And you're wearing a few hats there. Do you want to tell us about the couple

Yeah. So I joined as a chief legal officer and

the corporate secretary of Deep Cell. And recently I also became

the interim head of people. And this is

not actually my, not my first time being the head of people, but

the interim head of people role at Deep Cell was fairly

Can you take us through a little bit of what a day in the life looks

like in your job, wearing all these hats and working with this cool

tech? What do you do when you wake up? And what does your day look like?

So my, my, I was going to say my every

day is different, but I don't, I think my every hour is different. And

then the joke I've turned into is, it's just being, I'm pretty

much an octopus, right? I just got off a call. I could be having one

call about IP. Um, and the next call

I'll be talking about, uh, retention and the next time will be

diversity. And the next time would be back to potential contracts.

So it's exciting, it's

chaotic, but at the same time, it allows

me to look at the company even more holistically than

That's a legit hat you're wearing, head of people. So we, you

know, we work with some very small companies and a head of people

might be overseeing, you know, 10 people. And that,

you know, that's pretty early to bring in a head of people, but we've seen it before. But

a hundred, that's a job. That's a lot of people to care

How do you, I mean, if you don't mind me asking, I

feel like, you know, everyone, maybe not to the extent that you

do, but people are switching gears constantly, but that can be so

exhausting and draining. So do you find that energizing or

do you do something for yourself that kind of like resets when

like at the end of the day, you're like, well, I was in 76 meetings and I literally

I think my answer is a little bit of both, right? I will say I

am an introvert, so I recharge by having

a long time to decompress and then to be able

to think through things. But at the same time, and

back to my earlier comment, I just enjoy fighting

that thread in a pool of chaos, and

they thread that into different needles and thread it into

something that makes sense. So to me, HR and

legal are not necessarily independent because to me they are actually intertwined.

Right. How do you make sure that people are empowered to

do what they do so that, for example, the company can

have the IP generated by the people because those are

the assets. And how do you protect this IP that you generate? Because

I have noticed that, you know, at companies about that size, it

seems like many times the offices for the

head of legal and head of people are very close by in proximity

because there's a lot. There's a lot of exchange there, you

know, to your point. So I want to think a

little bit about the strategy role that you're playing as well. So

in a growing biotech, I would break these

out into two different questions, but let's just keep them together. What

are the main strategies that you're thinking through on a daily basis so

that you can help the company grow? Whether that's legal people,

you know, what are the things that you find most enjoyable and impactful

I see myself as a strategist. I spend a lot of my time trying

to preempt what the outcome could be in

a way that makes sense, right? And a lot of my GC

friends, they are trained to sort

of put out fires, right? Litigation ensues or

transaction happens, then they turn into a

more reactive, and there's nothing wrong with it, just different

models, different business, a way of doing things. But

I spend a lot of my time trying to craft a strategy in

a way that if something unexpected happens,

it's not an entire surprise. For example, we look

at potential problems on the road for IP. We

look at potential employment issues because of the new law that came out. Or

the AI thing that just, you know, everything is sort of I'm

not trying to find an answer to everything. I

think it's important to know that because the moment I

say I know everything is the moment I don't think I

know everything or anything. So if I spend all of my time to

understand what the problems are and can be and

find a way to proactively mitigate the potential

consequences of it. And by doing that, then I

look at, back to your second part of the question, what empowers me, right?

And so I, I find it the most energizing, um,

to be able to work with the people. Um,

I, I enjoy working with scientists, um, that sort of go back to

my, my IP route, but I also enjoy working with.

people on the non-IP portion, right? Talking about inclusion, talking

about how to make a place more empowering

for all kinds of employees. It touches

on the humanity portion of my interests. So

I like to weave them together, because I

I like the way you describe that. I also like to look

for things that could go wrong and have a plan for it. But

I just call myself a negative optimist. I hope that it all works

That's exactly a point well made. One of the things that I have tried to

do so that, you know, lawyers have a reputation, right?

Part of no. One of the things I try to do so that I don't become

a part of no is I say I'm a part of maybe. Right.

And so the way I do it is to say here are the risks. However,

here are the things we can do in view of the risk. Now we

have a menu in front of us to pick, rather than, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no. And that also allows

me to work with the other teams. For example, at the exact choosing

level, at the different functional groups, or even down to the

most junior of folks. Now we know the

different risks. How do we then sit together and

craft a strategy that people can actually

Yeah, I think risk mitigation is such a fascinating thing. And it's

kind of fun, right? Because if you're looking ahead and it's a risk down the

line, it gives you more room to play. And you also do put parameters in

I am the one, though, who is running ahead full speed. And Allison's

like, have you considered X,

Y, Z. It's really helpful to have somebody on the team who is maybe a

little more, I'm the classic entrepreneur who's like,

Right. And you talk about empowering and the energizing part. One

of the part I, what makes, what drives a

lot of the exercise I said, despite what I said, that being the

part of it may be, is I surround people, like surround

myself with people who are very different than I am. And

that's intentional. I very often hire people who

are very different than I am just so that I can get a

new perspective, right? And so while I'm doing what I'm doing,

my approach is this, I want to make sure there are other people checking

to make sure I am not putting myself in a bubble and lose sight

of what I don't know, what I don't know, right? And so that has been

empowering. It's sometimes uncomfortable because people

are different than you are. I intentionally put myself in an uncomfortable situation,

but the idea is so that I can grow, the team can

And you do a decent amount of work within the

DEI realm as well in your company. So I

think that getting comfortable with that diversity, that

really, once you are comfortable, that makes the

whole company better. And I wonder what

your perspective is on helping people to push through that and sort

of setting the stage for creating that diversity, those

different perspectives within the company and helping people to overcome maybe their discomfort,

Yeah, so I would say of the D, E, and

I, I actually focus a lot on the I.

It's not to say the other two are not important, but of the three, I like to focus

a lot of my efforts on the I, the inclusion part. And

as a gross analogy, the diversity will increase numbers,

it will change representation. The equity might actually bring

people in, but it's the inclusion piece that

makes people stay. And so how do I do it

so that people feel they're included? And included to me

doesn't mean, okay, you have a party, I invite you. It's that I

want you to feel like you're part of the dance. You don't

get a ticket and that's it. You are part of the party to

dance with me. And so to me, that is

my, that's all of my efforts on that piece of

the D&I, or I like to call it ID really, I'd

reverse the order. But that also means that people

come from all kinds of backgrounds, right? And people have different

levels of comfort, they view the world differently. So

very often we need to calibrate not to lose ourselves.

I would like to be true. I think it's important that we are true

to ourselves. But how do we do that so other people can

also be true to themselves? I think that that has been a

lot of work that needs to be done, right? And how do you do it

so that people feel they're listened to, they're seen?

At the same time, more importantly, they are empower to

contribute. Because being seen is one thing, but feeling like they

can be part of that community, to be included, and

do something together as a team, that is

What have you seen work in companies, you know, when they're really trying

to focus on the inclusion piece? Are there actionable things

that you've implemented or you've seen companies implement that you think if

other organizations were to know and do the same, it would actually

Um, so I will, I will speak from my own experience, right?

That's, that's my way of saying this is not a guidebook because I think it depends, it

depends on that demographic of the company. It depends on the industry of the

company. But what I found to be helpful, um,

is that the, the team that the senior leadership

team, um, she strived for transparency, accountability,

and more importantly, vulnerability. And so it's

important, I think, for the employees to see

that the efforts to

create a more inclusive environment doesn't just come

from one person or some lip service that you

give out as a brochure or some training you do once a

year. It's that it should all come all

the way from the top to all the way to the bottom. And I

mean, they shouldn't even be about it. It should be just an entire company should be

an effort for everyone to be involved. And that also means

if there is a challenge, right? So maybe there's something that hasn't

been done well. The team should actually

confront it, right? I believe that one way

to work together, to build that trust, to

build that intimacy is actually by solving hard problems together.

Not to avoid them together, but to actually confront them and then

deal with it heads on. And that's how I feel

in my experience, people starting to trust each

other. And once you have that trust, people feel safer

to potentially speak out, right? And to potentially make

mistakes. And that's when you actually handle

and work together as one. Because otherwise you have a bunch

of sort of discrete point people working on

different things, but they never are bound together by some sort

That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. That's really impactful. Can

we switch gears and talk about legal matters? I'm

so curious about where you see the future of

IP going with all of the rapid changes

that we're seeing. Is there anything that you are just fascinated

I, well, yeah, the answer is definitely yes. I'm fascinated by

quite a few things. And again, just a few months ago, I never

heard of JotGPT. I don't think anybody knows what JotGPT is, but and

look at, look at where we are now. Right. And I think one of the

things I find fascinating and one of the reasons I

am where I am in both a company perspective

or the legal career I'm in is actually to learn the

technology. at the very beginning stage, right?

And that's actually by design where

IP comes from. You learn it before it's publicly available. You learn it before

it's well known. I think there's going to be a

lot of unknowns. And it's not going to be a

linear growth. It's going to be an explanation because And once

we open the door to taking AI as one example, I

would not be surprised that all of a sudden AI can be used for multiple,

multiple things that had never even been contemplated before. Now,

that also means, now putting my lawyer's hat

back on, The technology

is going to be ahead of the time or before the

legal paradigm catch up. So before the courts

can act, before Congress can act, we're going to have a lot

of challenges as a result of exciting

development in science and technology that we need to confront,

right? And how do we protect privacy? How do we protect You

know, even bias, you know, our AI, should

AI be treated as people? I mean, there are a lot of things that are not

yet resolved legally, but it has to

Within your space particularly, we're talking about

imaging, right? And so using your technology to

be able to survey vast quantities of

images and to find the pattern so that we can identify

disease tissues faster and that sort of thing. Are there any

thoughts to the ramifications of that patient confidentiality and

where will those datasets come from and all of those things? Because, you

know, we we're still in the midst of, for instance, the HeLa cell

legal issues. And so I'm just curious, are we

going to see that again in 50 years with people's

I think that problem has never gone away. The

reason is sort of on the surface, less

heard of is because of the legal paradigm that was created. Right.

And then that's my way of saying, because the problem never went

away. Anytime there is a scientific advancement,

that will probably be brought back in front and center. Right.

And so how do you, how do we. advance

the science of our kind, humankind, so that we benefit everybody

without compromising at the same time the people being part

of the experiments. That is

going to be challenging, right? And that's another part

of that also is there is right now no cohesive framework,

Europe act this way, US act that way, even in the United

States, this country, different states act different ways. So until

there is a more cohesive framework, and I would, I remain hopeful

that sometime soon, this will happen. But until

then, it's going to be quite a bit of back to the, my

earlier comment about how do you preemptively and

proactively think about the possible consequences before

Karina's question was so intelligent and like so far reaching

and consequential. Mine is very in the moment. Do

you allow employees to use ChatGTP at DeepCell or

is that like, no, don't be funneling our information into

Well, that's going to be a work in progress. But for now, we

are not prohibiting child GPT. And

to be realistic, this is the engineering part of me, right? It's

impossible to prohibit. So rather than prohibiting, we've

been focused on how do we do it so

Yeah, it's a lot to think of right now. I agree. We're seeing

schools are prohibiting it. Oh, okay.

But how, how are you prohibiting this? You know, this is where it's

the education component. What should and shouldn't we use it

And actually the joke, the joke actually is when someone asked to,

to write a policy of how to not use ChargeGBT, someone

But here's my whole thing with it. I mean, here's my soapbox. This

is the prime opportunity to teach people how to think critically. Just

because it spits it back out at you and the tool is there does not mean it's accurate.

And it's like a calculator. If you understand what the

answer roughly should be or how you got there, sometimes you

mistype in the calculator and it gives you a crazy answer and you need to be

able to parse that out. And so I think it's like, you know, when we talk about people

using these tools, they just have to understand the critical components of what

And also, you raised a very good point, right? I mean, that's again, that's a

different way. That's my way of seeing the world is

that One reason child GPT becomes child

GPT is our framework and our way of

looking at data being generated. It may

not be healthy, right? So for example, one of the reasons

that school kids can actually use child GPT to get away

our assignment is those are meeting rubrics, right?

If you were to look at this and say the assignment is

to for you to actually provide your thinking

process, those are not things JWT can do. Just

like going back to a larger company environment, if what

we are looking for is truly people generating

new ideas, and it could be IP, it could be non-IP, but

it's the thought process of sharing what you are generating, those

are not replicable by JWT, or even created by JWT. And

so I think it may be helpful for us

as a whole, as a society, to look at what is valuable information

Yep. I completely agree. I think it's a great tool for brainstorming. I think people

just have to think through it and take it to the next level. Take the

first iteration and say, okay, well that's what that's been out, but now how do I

improve it and where does that lead me and chase the rabbits, you know?

So kind of staying on this legal route, we

are moving so fast. How do you keep up with that with the IP?

whole thing about strategy is you need to preemptively think

of what could be and might be in a practical way, right? And the reason

is nobody has unlimited budget. And so that goes

to what if the strategy shouldn't be just cover everything, scorch the

earth. And so that also means I think

it's important when we build an IP, the strategy

should be a science-driven strategy rather than a legal-driven strategy.

Because if the strategy is based on science, then

you capture a technical solution rather than

a legal-driven maneuvering, which

can come and go based on how the courts act. right, how the laws change.

But if a solution is a solution, that actually builds a

lot of the foundational pieces of

what the assets of the company can be. And that also

allows you to be more creative, right? Rather than using legal as

a reason of what not to do, or what

to do, you now open yourself up to a potential, endless

potentials, because your science will

allow you to capture that from different angles.

How do you find the different elements of that development, that

technology improvement? And also, how do you do it

to find a synergy of the different elements? Those

are things that are independent and

agnostic from the legal requirements as well. And

with that, then the company can actually have an IP

asset that match better with

its commercial interest. And you can explain to the

investors or the rest of the world, here's what I'm

doing and why, rather than some arbitrary legal

I think that when we think about people who are building a biotech in the

very early stages, you know, obviously, They

need to advance the science. There's IP. They have like just standard HR legal

issues. But most people aren't bringing in like a full time

chief legal officer. Right. But when do you think the right time to start

incorporating that in is for a small firm? What

do you think the tipping point is to like you need someone on site? Is it in a

It's important to know that different companies are different, right? And

then there are companies that are not generating as

much IP as some of the more life sciences and biotech companies.

So I don't, I don't want to pretend that, you know, they should be all the

same. In fact, they should not be the same to be strategic. But

however, for a science or, or a IP, an

IP generating company, life sciences being one, biotech, life

sciences and biotech, and also high tech. I, I

would say it's probably better. to

bring an attorney that

is at least knowledgeable on the IP front

as early as possible. Because very often what ends up

happening is when they hire, when they have the

resources, more often is when they were

told to do it by the board, it's still a little too late, right?

Because a lot of the founders didn't appreciate how important IP

really is. And think about this, I would encourage us to think about this.

Before a company commercialized a product, very

often the only tangible asset is actually IP.

And so if there is to be a merger and acquisition, if there's going to be whatever

transaction, before a product is actually launched

or sold in the market, the only thing that

you can show, or one of the very few things you can show, really is the IP

assets you have. And so rather than playing catch up,

it is important, I would even say critical, particularly for

a biotech company, to focus on the assets as early

Could see your chief business officer hat in that one. Yep. No,

that's really, really point well taken. That

is critical. And I think not very many founders do think

about that as like, I have an asset. How

do I protect this asset? There's a lot of people who can't

afford, you know, at an early stage to bring in a full time head

of legal or even, you know, someone on the IP space.

How useful is it? Is it possible to use a firm to

leverage an external firm? And if so, when is that? not

At the minimum, the company should focus on

IP, right? And be, whether that is on an outside counsel, outside

firm or internal, at the minimum, some effort should

be made. That's what I recommend. The question of when that

balance is tilted so that it becomes an in-house, it

would depend on a lot of factors, right? And so

resources being one. What I though would say

from a sort of anecdotally, what

has been successful for a

license or biotech company to handle

their IP is actually to have that transition to

in-house as early as possible. And here's why.

Outside councils, law firms, to no

fault of their own, they can handle a task-oriented IP

project. However, they are not going to have the visibility or

even the insight into where the company wants to go.

So the information they have is as good as whatever they

receive. On the other hand, if you have someone strategic

in-house, what they can bring to the table is asking,

well, what about something else? What have we missed? Right. And

that strategy piece is very often not able

to capture by an outside counsel that is not on the ground day

to day and figure out where the company may

go or where the company can be benefited in

That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, that was sort of my assumption as

well. But so it sounds like, you know, if you

have to choose keeping external counsel that's

doing like contracts and, you know, more of the regular

legal aspects, but can that be handled

by your IP attorney or is that not generally done? I know you wear both hats,

but can your IP attorney usually generally

very often different, but they're also very often

the same, particularly in a life science company. And that's another reason

I like to weave my legal

strategy based on an IP-centric approach. And

so again, this is applicable in a more life science, biotech,

or high-tech settings where it's very uncommon

any transaction will go through without touching IP in some

way. even a hiring of a consultant, right,

or collaboration. So very

often an IP trained attorney should

be able to at least contribute to the transactional

pieces that legal exercise, although

they are, they're designed to be different. But

that's my way of saying that if

there is to be a legal transactional exercise, IP should

have some input into it. But whether the person can

actually do both, that would depend on what

Yeah, this is an area I have very little experience other than, yeah,

we get contracts signed. But we

have not had to deal directly with IP because that's just not our

area. Other than if a candidate comes in, you know, attached to a patent, we have

In a situation, unless it's an IP focus, typically companies

like to have people who are focused on the more

For anyone listening who is like, wow, what a cool career. I mean, I

think it would be very difficult to replicate your career path. It is very

interesting and it is just diverse. It is fascinating. But

if someone was like, wow, I really think that like being the chief legal officer

or, you know, any of these interim roles you had or chief business officer, like

I guess in general, what advice do you have to someone who's, you

know, maybe early stage career, maybe they're still figuring it out, but

I actually get asked that question quite a bit. I

do a lot of mentoring. And so that's actually one of the

most common questions I get asked. So my recommendation

is this. I think it's important to

find your North Star values. Because that

is going to be what helps you weather the storms, if there is one.

That is going to be what helps you find your interests and understand what

you don't like. So find your North Star values

as early as possible, appreciating that value can

change. but in the actions can change and

you should be willing to embrace that change because that's how

you evolve. But find that value as early as possible and

at the same time be intellectually curious, right? And to say,

look, there might be things I don't know. But let's find

out, right? Don't stop there. Don't stop at there's something I don't know.

OK, too bad. But find out, make an effort to find

out, be vulnerable and say, I'm going to show up. I'm

going to give it a try. And if it doesn't work, then let's be resilient

and come back again or do something else. Know what you like, be

true to yourself and then give it a try and just

I think that's great life advice. Yeah. Honestly, career,

Yeah. So what is next for

you on this wild career ride that you're on? Do you

have anything that is undone and you think, you know, before I'm done,

I don't really have one, probably because

I keep trying new things regardless. And I know I'm going to

keep trying new things regardless. But career-wise, I

think, first of all, I have had a remarkable career

journey to be where I am. And I'm looking forward to seeing where it goes. But

being where I am right now, I've started to enjoy

a lot more giving back. to

the community, mentoring, and making sure that

whatever I'm doing can actually help the

next generation of folks who want to participate

in any part of the journey I've been on, the legal part, the BD part,

the HR part, you know, science part, that I'm,

I'm part of that community to make that environment a

better place, an easier place for them to, to thrive. Right. I

see myself in participating a lot more on the community efforts,

right. On a, in a board capacity perhaps, or,

or, or advisory kind of, so that, so that it's,

it's for me to be able to help people

what is your favorite book, fiction, nonfiction, could have read

it 20 years ago, could have read it yesterday, a book you think everyone should

You know what? One of my favorite, favorite fiction

book, it's actually a children's book. It's actually called

The Rabbit Listened. And in essence, it's about

this little kid. He was very frustrated, right? Because the

toys fell down. And there are a series of animals coming, came

to sort of comfort him. The bear roared because he was angry. The

chicken said, let's talk. And the snake, you know, just a whole bunch

of different things and said, let's do this, let's do this, let's do this. he

didn't feel better. And what happened was this little rabbit, the

rabbit came, sat by the kid, the child, and

they just listened without saying a thing. And

so as a result of that, the child started to

angrily scream and then to roar and then to do

all that stuff. And then at

the end, the child goes, Now I'm

ready to rebuild. Right. And so to me, that was such a lot

of times we think we're helping people the

way we know how to help, but that's counterproductive. Right.

And so if anything, that's a reminder for myself that I would like

to help. We should help people the way they want to be helped. if

anything, that create a more inclusive environment because that

can avoid a lot of the issues we're seeing with microaggressions

and all that because we don't have the perspective of the other

person. I do read a lot of fiction books, but this is probably one

of my favorite ones. Yeah. And then now fiction, this book I really like

is called Emotional Agility by Susan David. And

to me, it was almost a summary of a lot of works that I really

enjoy, right? Brene Fran's work, Alan Grant's work, Keenan

Scott's work. And so this sort of summarizes how

to be vulnerable, how to show up, how to stay intellectually curious

and agile, and then give it a try. Right. And so that's

Amazing. I'll put that on my list too. Yeah. I

love all of the authors you mentioned and so anything that brings that together.

Where can our audience get in touch with you if they have questions or

Perfect. We'll link that in the show notes. If anyone wants to go Lincoln with you, I'm

sure you'll get quite a few folks that are wanting to join your network and

just follow your career. I'm fascinated. I can't wait to see what

you do next. And I'm going to be following your career religiously because it

is so fascinating. Thank you so much for coming on. This was a