Welcome to another Principle of Hospitality podcast. Thanks so much for tuning into this episode brought to you by Principle Design and Philotimo. Principle of Hospitality has been developed to tell the stories of professionals within the dynamic world of hospitality. We're straight talking, ethically minded, and a reliable online source of information and inspiration for people in the hospitality industry.
Welcome to the show, Michael Buschetta. Did I say your name right?
That one
never gets it right. I've known you for over 10 years and I still don't get it right. I was impressed, I met someone the other day and they nailed it the first time.
Okay, how do I nail it? Can you talk me through it? What is it?
Michael Buschetta.
Michael Buschetta. Okay, but you can't, you can't like paint me like that, right?
Because you've changed your name. Like I've known you as Michael Peppy and Michael Buschetta. Yeah, fair enough. And I was the one who recommended you should just merge them and call yourself Michael Busceppi.
It's a much better name. Yeah. Well, I've got you saved in my
phone as that. Okay. Well, welcome to the show, Michael Buscetta.
It's honestly amazing to have you here, man. I think, um, obviously we know each other super well and have, you know, um, run similar journeys and I, for one, you know, really value the conversations that we have in the time that we spend together. And I think there's a lot of people in hospitality, That would really benefit from having a bit of a listen in, you know, to some of our catch ups.
Like I think when we catch up. There's, you know, lots of gold and wisdom in those convos, mostly coming from me. Unless it's football related. But I think, um, you know, a lot of people out there are really keen to hear what you have to say about anything hospitality related. So, um, I'm, I'm, I feel privileged to be able to sort of facilitate a bit of a convo around that.
And we're doing this unscripted, right? We're kind of relying on, on our, um, natural kind of chemistry as it were. So, yeah. Uh, it, there's a, there's a, there's a chance this podcast may never see the light of day and we have to actually plan it properly. There's also a world that what comes out is just fire and we do it more regularly because I think there's people that want to hear, um, you know, from people like yourself.
So I guess before we, we start talking about things super hospo specific, do you want to do a little, like a few kind of warmup questions or do you want to just jump right in?
Happy to warm up.
All right. Okay. So let me ask you some random stuff. Let me ask you like, um, just, I'll paint a picture for you.
Just say you're on the way home from work and you haven't eaten all day. And, um, the fuel light pops up on the car. You got to pop into the survey and get some petrol. All right. What, you just need to eat something. What's your, what are you going to right now?
Oh, salt and vinegar chips. Oh, okay. That's a good answer.
If it's a, if it's. Sweet tooth time. It'll be like, uh, a, um, some sort of fucking horrible lolly from my childhood. Like what? Like, a pack of nerds or something. And I'll hide them from my children. And they're never allowed to have them.
So what'd he do with the wrapping? What do you do with the wrapping?
It's full,
full scale. Stealth mode. Yeah, stealth mode. It's like in the pocket, never sees the light of day. But then what? And then you throw it out when you get home? Yeah. And I go to the actual big bin, put it in there and I never
see it. Oh, okay. That's, that's kind of crafty. To be fair, I did try that once, forgetting that we had a ring doorbell thing installed.
Oh no! Ha ha ha! So yeah, I, I now just have learned the lesson that it's actually a lot easier to just buy extra for the kids and then deal with the wrath of Ali cracking it that I've brought sugar home at such an unreasonable hour. All right, let me hit you with another one. Um, do you think, and why or why not like make it make a good case for this, right?
For or against, should they increase the free tram zone in the city by an additional 800 meter radius? Uh, absolutely. Absolutely, okay. Of course. Why? Well, trans would be free everywhere. Trams should be free everywhere. Absolutely. Public transport is called public transport.
So, Who
pays for it then?
The fucking government.
You know, we did some crazy things over COVID where suddenly we had some money to help people and then came out the other side and there's no money to help people.
All right. What about the argument though, that like, if, um, They did that. There's a certain amount of revenue that they're not making that wouldn't then be spent on keeping it running well.
Think about how much they spend on policing.
Right. Tickets. Yep. It's crazy. Sure. You go to all
the stops, there's six offices.
That's a pretty damn good call. So you're saying What are they on? A hundred grand a year each? Fuck, no way. Yes, they 80. Okay, 80. They're on 80. Alright. Six of them sitting there. Yeah.
Come on. Yeah. Ridiculous.
Ridiculous. And they're making revenue from the, like, from people making the mistake. Okay. I'll put it out there. I don't pay for fucking
trans.
Bro,
you can't be saying that shit on a podcast. I'm not allowed to anymore because I've got kids
and
you serious right now? Do you just jump on and jump off?
Have you ever been busted? No.
Okay. So even if you did get busted now, you're still away.
I pay for trains cause I'm not, you know, I'm not jumping turnstiles. I'm not that guy.
Uh, you know, this is, Hilarious, we're like not even five minutes in, I'm learning things about you, I would never have picked that.
I'm a socialist at heart mate, I'm a
socialist. I hate paying for toll roads as well, I do it because I know it's the fastest way, but I hate it in the depths of my body. I'm with you on the toll roads, yeah. You know what I was thinking about the other day, I was thinking of something the other day. It's actually, it's just poor people tax.
Yeah. Totally. It's just like you live. Further out from the city. Yeah, it's poor people. So they stick you for it. It's horrible.
It is pretty horrible But but and you know, I did know you're a socialist, but I did not ever in a million years peg you as a fair evader
I'm gonna get you a t shirt with that. Well, you should put it as your little handle on your description under your Instagram You wanna do one more? Sure. All right. This is a, this is a tricky one. Um, ask this to Felicity a couple of weeks ago and it was a, she had the most hilarious answer to it. So I'm keen to know what you think.
Um, would you rather have a million dollars now or 10 million in two years, but everywhere you go for the next two years, the wifi around you just instantly cuts out. Yeah.
Does that include your phone cuts out? N uh, as in the 5G network? Yeah. Nah, nah, that's, that's not wifi. Oh. Take 10. You're taking the 10. Fuck yeah. What are you, what's your game plan? Whatcha you gonna do for two years with no wifi? I'm patient, man. Okay. But it's not just hot. Hot. It's not just about you.
I'll be hotspot in that shit. But what about everyone around you? Yeah, I don't care about everyone. Every time, every time you go to the office, they're gonna be like, fuck Michael's here. Yeah. I didn't back my shit up.
Internet's gonna,
oh
fuck.
So then women wanna be around me. Yeah. They're probably going to be like, bro, don't come to the office unless it's after hours or something.
I would say the closest people to me, I'd say I'd hook you up with some of that 10 million in
a couple of years.
Just put up with it. Put up with it. Put up with it. Okay. 10 mil. It's 10 mil. I thought
you were going to say in 10 years. I'm like, I'll take the one now because it'll be worth more than the 10 in 10.
Well, no, but I mean, you could also invest
that one mil wisely.
But in two years, you're not going to 10x that.
I reckon I could, but
I can back myself to 5x that, but 10x is a bit
I'll just put it all on Carlton winning the flag next year, right? Like that would Do it now! All right, I think that's good. Are you sufficiently warmed up?
I'm sufficiently warmed up. All right, amazing. Thank you for, um, for doing that. And thanks for humouring me a little bit. I think, yeah, let's get to the good stuff, right? Let's give the people what they want to hear. I'm just going to throw a really unfair question at you. You know, and just put you on the spot because, you know, I think you should be put on the spot given your experience and the amount of wisdom you've got in the game.
Um, just, just give, actually I'll start you with a nice easy one. What are all the most important things involved in opening a restaurant? Four. The most important things. Yeah.
Um. In your opinion. Yeah, I, I put them in sort of two categories. One is who you do it with. And the other one is, um, I mean, there's three categories.
There's why you're doing it, who you do it with, uh, and then how you do it. And love it already. Um, You know, the why is, is the most important thing. Is that
the first
one? That's the first one. Because if you can't answer that, then, and I go into restaurants pretty frequently, I'm like, why does this joint exist?
Right. It's just another joint.
Yep, it's a tick in the box. Tick in the box. Yep. It's a restaurant. Yeah.
Um, which is fine. We need restaurants. Yeah. And people need to eat. Mm hmm. People need jobs. So restaurants can exist like that. Sure. But I think for me, and for people that, uh, You know, hospitality, they live and breathe, they need to, a lot of people go through the industry working for other people, obviously, and, and getting experience and a lot of people go through that, like, I can't wait to open something myself, can't wait to open something myself, which is fine, and it's a great drive to have and goal, but if you don't have a strong wire behind, behind A, yourself in the industry and what you do and who you are, but then also why that restaurant needs to exist and why you should open it.
So I
love this point and I feel like there's a few layers to this point because what you can call purpose or your why or identity, you know, it's all in the same kind of category. Um, firstly, I mean, I have so many questions because I would say, you know, to your point, most people have no clue. It's rare that you go and ask someone that question, why does this business exist?
And they just go bang with like a two sentence compelling answer. So, so firstly, what, what, why do you think so few people? Do the work to answer that question, which is so foundational and so critical.
Uh, It feels a bit kumbaya for some people. I think yeah and um Not many people ask them themselves the deep questions.
I didn't when I started My own businesses with my business partners. It was exactly that it was like i've worked really hard to this point I'm, quite young really driven I just want to open a venue
but then how can but your place is a You You know, arguably some of the most successful in Melbourne, maybe further.
How did you achieve success without clarity on that?
Oh, some luck in that, I reckon. Okay. No, I think when you get enough decent people within the four walls of your business, you're gonna make something
work, right? Could I argue that maybe you were just too It's very much led by the why. It was just more subconscious or unconscious or intuitive rather than cognitive.
Yeah, yeah. I think, yeah, I think that's a fair point. Um, just because I didn't sit down and write it out and journal it didn't mean it didn't exist. Yeah, you still make
decisions based on it intuitively. Yeah, exactly. And when we
first got together to put that, um, you know, Bar Liberty to open, Banjo and I in particular, um, Because it was a beverage led venue, it was the two of us really, um, leading the way on the, obviously on the drinks, and I think Casey on the food, but um, we kind of lamented the fact that, you know, you went into a great cocktail bar, but the wine list was shit, or the beer list was horrible, or you went into a restaurant and the cocktails sucked,
or you
went, you know, just onwards down the journey of different focus venues, and for us, it was like, well, we just need to.
Have everything on the list match up to each other. Yes. It's a wine led venue, but the cocktail is gonna be fucking good Um, we're gonna have great non alcohol selection. This was 10. Oh, this is eight or nine years ago We're not still hadn't really happened. Sure. Um, and that was really important for us and Uh, we weren't going to have a espresso machine, but we made sure we had great coffee.
It was obviously with you and prouds Yeah, so it was just like That was really our why driving the venue itself in terms of the drink solution So it's like you can have these little flickers of the why you might not sit down and have this whole big hard
Did you guys ever write it down? After a couple of years or something, did you end up going, Hey, this is what it is and use it for training documents or did it always just remain?
Yeah. Our one liner was always, uh, a place for everyone to drink everything. But our sort of thinking behind that was like, we're going to have everything that's delicious and great and everyone's welcome to come and encapsulates
it quite well.
Yeah, exactly. And it was about Liberty in its name, like Liberty itself.
We came from fine dining and wanted to, you know, We loved our time at Attica and it was fucking hard work, but we learned a lot, but we also served 62 people a night on, you know, five nights a week and that was it. Um, and you, the idea of a regular there was once a year, um, if you're lucky. So, yeah, there's no regulars and it's obviously very expensive, which it is what it is.
Um, and it was about creating, like, what you could do. Show stopping experiences for people.
Sure.
But going to the Bar of Liberty, it was about opening the door to as many people as we could. Got it. And we're still very conscious that it is not a cheap place to go. Mm, mm. But it certainly opened up the door to a lot more people and the way we structured it at the beginning was, um, you know, someone could come in for a glass of wine once a week in a sack and it's totally affordable.
Got it. Um, and you can't blow the bank a bit.
So can I point something out here? Mm. Um, cause your first point, right? Look, I asked you that. Really simple question, right? How do you open, you know, what are all the most important things of opening a restaurant? Your first response is you've got to know your why.
Yeah.
Gold. Even though we kind of contradict that a little bit with that example, I think it's important for people to understand the difference because You guys, uh, effectively, fine, you didn't write it down, but you were almost quite compelled by what you wanted to do there. Yes. Um, and you were so intuitively motivated by, and also to, to point out, you and Banjo, it's not like you, that was the first thing you'd ever done together.
How long were you working at Attica for?
Uh, I think three and a half years together there.
Crazy, right? So, I mean, the, the, the The craziest accomplishment is you were able to actually work alongside Banjo for three and a half years. But, you know, you guys had three and a half years to build synergy and to build alignment around what you want to do.
So maybe you could almost get away with not writing it down. Yeah. But, but knowing what you know now, if you had your time again, you probably would have, right?
Yeah. We'll just spend a lot more time with it. Sure. And with, with all the business partners and being like, why do we actually want to do this?
And I remember my pitch to banter to come join the team because he's like, is this the one? Is this what we're going to do? I'm like, yes. And this is also what we're going to do. And this was before Liberty even opened. I was like, we're going to open other restaurants literally on this street or close by.
Right. And we did that. Yeah, for sure. Down the road, Felco around the corner. Yeah. Other Felcos
now.
Um, and kind of grow into the community and do it that way. Yeah. Um, yeah. You know, time, time, time's a funny thing like eight years down the path now and I'm now out of those businesses for good reason and it's certainly the right time but You know, I certainly cherish the time I had there But if we did spend more time up front, right, maybe things would have gone a little bit different for sure I mean everyone
yeah and and I mean I just think what's important to point out for people listening to this is that You Having the luxury of like three and a half years of building synergy and cohesion.
That's that's a unicorn like yeah It's hardly anyone is is right now looking at signing a lease with that in their back pocket. So all the more reason why? Having those conversations around the purpose and the why and whatnot is so integral and so critical at the start I've got a little bit of a different theory on it to you I think why people don't spend time on this stuff is because obviously it's so intangible, right?
Like you said, you sort of went down the Kumbaya route. I think that what tends to happen for people is, you know, it's really hard to measure the progress of that conversation. Sure. So if I was like, Hey man, let's go open a cafe over there. Right. Um, and we said, let's spend two hours planning for that business.
We would say we just go and write a menu and cost it and write a roster and put down some functional things like After, if we just said we're gonna, we're gonna do two hours of costings, at the end of that two hours, we would have two hours worth of costings to show for it. But if we went, hey, let's just go sit down and talk for two hours about the purpose of it.
Man, we could spend 20 hours talking about that and have nothing to show for it. You know, because that conversation isn't linear. It's not, it's not like we just start the conversation and then it just instantly clicks. I mean, sometimes it does, but you never know, right? It's like, um, you know, that someone asked, like, Buddha once, like, how long does it take to achieve a light, enlightenment?
He said, well, it can take a lifetime or it could happen in the next 10 seconds. So you may as well start meditating now. Yeah. No, but
I think it kind of circles back to my point, though, is that I had this conversation the other day with someone that I'm helping opening, open a venue that, um, without trying to.
It was actually quite a small decision they had to make, um, on something. It was like, fucking, I think it was, um, the color of something. Right. And I'm like, I know it seems really small, but this is why you do the work. Before, because, um, if you get the why right and understanding what your direction is for the conceptually of the venue and how you fit into it and why the world needs it is that when there's a hundred tiny decisions come up, they're way easier.
Yep. They all become yes, no. Exactly. Because if you don't do the work, you get to these tiny things, you go, hang on, do, should we do that? And like, this is, it should be a really easy decision. And then suddenly you can start falling into the trap of. Well, this is just what I've done before. So I'm just going to go with this one and then you kind of do 50 decisions down the line, little 50 little decisions down the line.
You go, Oh shit, I've turned this into my old work or something like that. And you're like, hang on. If you do the work up front, that decision making is so much easier. And if you've got a strong why behind what you're doing, then. Well, number one, it's fucking easy to get up in the morning and know what you're doing and why you're doing it.
Um, but, in the team itself, there's so much more clarity because you're able to communicate while we're all here every day.
Mm, that's huge. And I couldn't agree more. Like, I think you could over intellectualise, like, what colour the napkins should be. Yeah. For a long time and get nowhere. But when you actually get clarity on the fact that we're just, we're trying to do a fast, casual, predominantly take away, you know, venue.
We were like, who gives a fuck what color the napkins are? Just get the ones that are going to work the best. I
think that's a really good point. It's like you can conceptualize what you're doing through the why is that that little decision that comes up, it just becomes a throwaway. Yeah. Well, it's obviously just fucking do this or you don't do this.
Or why are we even talking about it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. A hundred percent.
Okay. So I got a much harder question while we stay on the why. Right. Um, and I know it's going to be really hard to just be like, You know, pump out a great answer for this because I've, I've personally probably, I think by this stage I would have probably committed like close to a couple thousand hours of study and research on this and there's, and haven't yet found, well, I found something I think is really good, but nothing that I can sort of just easily explain right now.
If you are sitting down with someone to help them figure out their why, how do you do it? What's the process?
I am a bit of a lone ranger when it comes with that, for that, like, I need to do it by myself. Really? Yeah. Okay. I, I struggle. Okay.
What's your process then?
Um, my process is, uh, obviously writing at length.
Okay. What I wanna be doing. Right. Um, and 10 years ago I went down the line of like the classic. What's my 10 year plan? What's my 5 year plan? What's my 3 year plan? What's my 1 year plan? Got it. So like,
so paint the, the promised land horizon and then reverse engineer. And I
think everyone listening will be like, oh, that, that's goal setting though.
That's not why. Correct. That is correct, but But it's
close. It's on the right track. It's on the
right track. And I think the why and your inevitable sort of goal setting, they need to saddle in with each other, obviously, because you can't try and achieve your why. Right. On one side and then have these other goals on the other side that don't align.
Um, and it actually helps doing that goal setting process helps you understand. Well, I want to achieve this. Can I do something I love to get there? Right? Which gives you the reason to doing what you do. That's the why, right? Um, whereas I think a lot of people try and separate it a little bit too much. Um, and I've certainly been guilty of trying to run both races, but that weren't intertwined.
Um, and then you suddenly stop and you realize like, Oh, I'm not doing that. Doing what I love right now. Financially, I seem to be going okay. And, um, I seem to be achieving my goals, but I'm not quite there yet. Happy. Sure. So that's not okay, right? Yeah.
Like there's not enough substance to it or there's something just not quite hitting.
Exactly. So I think if it's like sitting down with someone trying to help them, I would actually just counsel them on how to do it by themselves and giving the themselves the space because we're live in a world now that we're constantly interrupted by everything around us. Right? Yeah. It's impossible, incessantly impossible.
Yeah. And people don't take the time to spend it. Yeah. So you talked about meditation before. Yeah. It's like, you might not be someone who meditates, but go away and get that experience of meditation. You might not be sitting down and, and meditating for an hour. No, but it's, it's that reflective practice.
And you can do that by playing golf or running or riding a motorbike or meditating, you know, it's just. People get it in different ways. Yeah. A hundred percent.
But what all of those things have in common is. Empty space. Yes. Right? In your head. And time to think. Exactly. Like I went, like, I've always been quite guilty of overthinking things.
And I went for a run the other day. I got to the end of it. It was about, I don't know, 50 minutes, let's say. I got to the end of it, and I was just stretching, enjoying the sun. I was like, I did not think of work once in 50 minutes.
Wow. Amazing. That's
very rare for me, right? And I was like, holy shit, like I need that more, um, to give me that space and I felt amazing after it.
Not because I'd worked out, but it also gave me the mental space. We unplugged. Exactly. Got some
perspective, like physical separation, which gives you a different type of perspective.
Exactly. And I was like the, the idea of like flow state, right? Yeah. Yeah. I get into flow state and everything else just melts away around you and you have this amazing clarity, um, right in front of you.
And it's like, I, you know, we all. Consciously, unconsciously lust for that in our lives. And it's the reason why I love hospitality, love and loved hospitality so much. And doing service is, that was my flow state. Got it. Holy hell. Yeah. I turned into a different person.
On the peak of service, it's like everything else just falls away.
Exactly. Except for the complete presence in the moment. Yeah. It's a pretty epic way to achieve mindfulness for sure. Um, man, I love everything you just said. You know, the, the idea around. You know, reflection and, you know, perspective and these are, I mean, I could speak for 45 minutes about how scientifically and physiologically those things, uh, correlated with understanding identity and authenticity, but I'll, but I won't, I want to actually instead.
Challenge a component of your, um, process, if that's okay. So, I'm really with you as well. I think the goal setting method is a great foot in, great way to get a foot in the door. Yeah. But, one of the potential pitfalls of it, is, so, so what I, I like to do, right, is I want to do it really holistically. If I can understand the purpose piece, right, And if I can understand it clearly enough, where I can express it in a sentence that is comprised of, is to so that Sure, yeah, yeah.
This venue needs to exist or this purpose of this venue is to, so that if I can get it to that point, then when I do the goal setting, right, then when I do the, hey, if, if I'm clear on, that's why this exists in five years time with a blank check and the bluest sky, where does this land? Yeah, and then and then I'll work backwards from that.
I've got a clearer picture Or a picture with a bit more substance or depth or a bit more of the feels But say for instance, I don't do that first bit and I go into the goal setting bit. There's a real risk of um, Painting that picture a bit more materialistically or trivially or maybe even not that bad.
Maybe it's just too Practically. Yeah. Um What are your thoughts on that?
Well, I think a couple things number one is Yeah. As I said, 10 years ago, I sat down and did that goal setting and I did it every year subsequently, um, until I think two years ago. Okay. And you know, it'll always be, I'm never a, um, new year's resolution person.
I'm always like, do we just fucking start today? Jesus Christ. Have you,
have you ever done the, um, have you seen the pick a word for the year,
but that's, I, you know, doing that every year and getting. Yeah. Really good progress with it. And I, I'm going to butcher the Bill Gates quote around, you know, you always be disappointed what you can achieve in a year, but amazed what you can achieve in 10, right?
And I felt like I was quite unquote achieving quicker than I anticipated 10 years ago, um, in terms of how much I'd done. Um, in the last, you know, in the last eight years, it's been a lot like a good or bad. It was just like, there's been a lot in that, in that timeframe for me, um, family businesses, you know, obviously throw COVID in there as well, but everyone went through, but, um, a lot's happened in that time.
And two years ago I sat down for my usual late December, early January check in on those goals. And what I'd do is go through and just. Cross out, obviously the things I'd done and then carry over things I hadn't and then check that against the 10 year plan, right? And then yeah, reset and put more things in.
Yeah.
And I started doing it. I was like, this is kind of bullshit because you go back to the idea of fulfillment and I wasn't feeling fulfilled by doing it. Even though I was overachieving on what my 10 year plan looked like, I still wasn't happy.
Right. So. Your desire for achievement is actually a personality trait.
It's not an identity thing. Yeah, exactly.
And I essentially crossed it all out. And just, it sounds real fucking corny. I was like, just be happy. That's the plan.
Holy
shit. Just be happy. Okay,
that's super
deep. And yeah, and um, I certainly have had plenty of ups and downs since then. But I feel more comfy in thinking about what I want to do.
A goal looks like now because now it's like, well, I just need to be happy. And you talk about. Your process is like, well, if I don't go do that now and it's just goal orientated, it becomes materialistic. It's like, that's exactly how I was going to go. But now this sort of mindset shift of, well, I just, from a personal perspective, my goal is for me to be happy, which therefore means if I'm happy, um, I'm happy because my family's happy.
So they must be happy if I'm happy. Right. Yeah. So yeah, it's all. And then the people around me are happy, which means I'm happy. So it's like, Hey, everyone around me, around me is happy. Um, They're happy to have me in their lives. Yep. They're happy that I'm being fulfilled in what I'm doing. So what does that look like?
Right. So then every time it comes to a business decision now, and, um, obviously, uh, I made the decision to, um, separate from, um, some of my businesses and the venues and then stick with, um, stick with one, which is Grada now.
Mm.
Um, and, um, And I had that conversation with my business partner of like, what do we actually want to be
doing?
It's like, yes, we need to achieve all these things from a goal perspective, um, for the business and where we're going and what we're doing. And there's a really strong why behind the business and, and we feel really comfy in that. But then we're always like, well, what's also going to fulfill us individually, right?
Because we know that if we find ourselves in a position, um, and yes, as business owners, you just have to eat shit sometimes, get things done that you don't want to do. But when that's on repeat, it's like, this isn't fun. but it's also,
if you're just doing that without being compelled by something like a more meta kind of purpose or something, like, so, so what you're talking about, can we go back to the be happy for a quick second?
Cause what, what you've described there, um, there's a lot of research on this, believe it or not. And. What you're describing so so firstly I'll stick to the practical pace right? Yeah in terms of the process So you describe this this almost like this principle now this guiding principle that is effectively gonna anchor your decision making and therefore your goal setting and that gives you this built in protection from things becoming materialistic because The, the concept, unless you are just a specifically trivial person, um, and you're kind of in that existential vacuum, you're probably not going to be doing things on a authentically spiritual level.
So let's just assume that like that, that ideal around being happy is, um, almost like contradictory in a way to making the most optimistic, the most optimal commercial decisions. Sure. Yeah. I know it's not as simple as that. Yeah. It's way too general. Yeah. But if you take, if you, if you. If you, uh, accommodate that for a second, um, now you know that when you're setting those goals with the, with the guiding principle or using be happy as a compass, it's just going to stop you from making trivial, more financially prioritised decisions, right?
Yeah. I think the financially prioritised decision making, it's not all, it might be the right, um, decision to make today. Yeah. Or on paper. Generally, or on paper. You know, one month, two months, three months, a year later, you're like, fuck, why did we do that? That's damaged me, the team, the brand, the whatever else.
And I think if you have that happiness perspective for yourself, then you outwardly want that for other people as well. And then when you start making decisions that affect other people, then you start to make those decisions with the, the, the guys of, well, I want to make my team happy as well. I want to make my family happy.
I want to, all those sort of things. So even, yeah. Then that bleeds into just how you structure your, um, how I structure my week. And, um, yes, I travel a bit for work. I'm out a little bit, but it means I've completely shifted the way. Um, my other days look like and how I interact with the family.
You lift the score on productivity so massively when you start with that foundation of purpose and meaning.
Yeah. And what, what, what your, so when, when you talk about be happy and what I hear there is effectively like how I'd spit that back is that you take that principle and you're effectively using it to enrich the environments and the people around you. What you are actually describing there is the concept of self-transcendence.
Sure. So if you do go and read all the research, right? Sure. Yeah, yeah. The self-transcendence bit is the culmination of like all of that, you know, identity, authenticity, purpose, and, and it's uniquely human, right? Yeah. So like, you know, we are the only species that can detach and that can, um, transcend. And what it is, it just sort of says that.
So, so in simple terms, one of the things that a lot of people talk about in purpose is I say, Hey, if you can articulate a purpose that's clear, that's great. If it involves helping others, that's even better because, you know, it's super spiritual and philosophical, but all roads lead to altruism. So what you've got there is two words that give you a really solid foundation to then go into that self transcendent place and then make the right decisions to enrich the environments and people around you.
You know, the thing I'd encourage you to do. That's, uh, that's it. I think the second thing you could do is to give it a try of adopting my bit of the process where you take that be happy statement and turn it into an is to so that statement. Yeah, sure. Because it'd be interesting to know, is the be happy the is to or is it the so that?
Yeah.
And what do they look like and pick a sentence in each and test drive it for a week or two and see where you land.
Yeah, that's a good call. I think for me, it's trying to Um, yeah, throw a lot of stuff at the wall and see what sticks in this space. And I've thrown a shitload of stuff at the wall in this space over the last five, 10 years.
Right. Um, and when you, for me, uh, I'm a simple thinker, like I need to have clarity, right? I can't have a million things going through my mind in terms of my why or purpose or why that exists. So I think like even boiling for me personally, boiling it down to, I'm just going to try and be happy.
Right.
That's pretty simple, right?
Totally. Totally. It's very grounding. Yeah, exactly.
And talk about altruism and it's. . It's crazy. Like help helping other people.
Mm.
Is the most selfish thing you can do. Do, why
do you say that? I like, I, I I fight this statement a lot. No, I love it. Okay. It's so true.
It's like, and, um, because it's selfish inherently.
It's inherently selfish. Sure. But it it's a good type of selfish. Yeah. Like, but do you care? No. I don't care if it is or not, but I was like, the more you think about it and the more I do in that space, like, um. Um, you know, I have, uh, lucky enough that people approach me for me to mentor them in hospitality and, um, I'm really bad at saying no.
So I love it because I love doing it. Yeah. All right. I can't do it too much, but I'll put, I'll put your mobile number in the show notes. Um, but usually my default is yes. Yeah. And my default when someone, even it might not be mentorship, it might be. Someone wants to have a coffee and talk about what their plans are and just get my idea on it.
It's always yes, no matter who they are, where they're from, what they've done. First time hospital, long term hospital, it doesn't matter. Um, and, you know, it's a big reason, you know, I've worked with, um, SCARF for so long. I'm on the board of SCARF, um, and I've been on the board for two years, but I've worked with them for, uh, Seven plus years, um, through, um, because they worked out of Worksmith and, um, being able to see that impact and, and being part of that, um, in a small way has been incredible.
But yeah, man, you talk about helping people and altruism and like the, the entire purpose of Worksmith was that. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like, that was what was so compelling about it when you first put that business plan together. Yeah. Like, I was one of the, Uh, and then there's a lot of people that got to see it before you, you kind of did it.
Yeah. And it was, and there was a lot of people that are just like, well, I ain't get this. Like, what the fuck's going on? Yeah, totally.
And I think, um, we've literally only closed the space two months ago. Um, and a lot of people that I've told or seen in a close, I'm really sorry. I was like, well, number one, it was planned.
Yeah, it's by design. Yeah, it's by design. We did seven years there and we got to the point where, like from financially it was fine. It wasn't breaking even. and it was like. Um, business farm, we had our other businesses, um, but got to the point where that why started to fall away a bit, even though, um, at heart, it still was the right, um, thing for me personally.
I knew from a business perspective from an, our team is that we had this great thing in the dream side of what we were doing and, um, a great why behind that, but that actually overtook the why of the space. Sure. And it became a. Uh, uh, not a resourcing thing, but A bit of a competing factor It was competing why Yeah Right?
Yeah And they could, they did live next to each other for a while Um, but then it got to the point where we started making a lot of decisions based off a physical space Right We were trying to build a global brand Yeah, that's a
really interesting, I feel like we could do a whole podcast
it just came to the point where it's like Like the Y doesn't need to die, even if the thing dies.
And it's like, okay. The soul lives on. Yeah. The soul lives on. Right. And all the good that it's done. And I try and I've always been a person to shy away from like, Oh, look how amazing this thing is that I helped build. Right. Um, but to get in a comfy space with closing something like that, um, you have to stop Literally right up on a fucking board.
What are the 20, 30, 40 most proud things that happened because of WorkSmith, right? It's amazing reflections. Yeah. You know, we, we looked at the numbers and I think we had 350 members or something through the space. Um, we started Melbourne Cocktail Festival. We started Grata. We started Homegrown. Uh, we started Tip Jar.
We raised a bunch of money during COVID. We've supported Scarf, which I'm now on the board of. Um. The amazing people that started in that space in the test kitchen that have gone on to open their own venues. Yeah. Tarts and Nog. Yeah. Holy Sugar. Yeah. Like all these It's amazing, dude. Yeah, and to be like, look, they did all the work.
We just provided the space. Yeah. So it's really fucking simple when you think about it. Yeah, but
can I just segue and just The OCD in me just wants to just quickly jump back a couple of steps and tie up a loose end. So the idea around, like, if you think about all the people, right, that you have helped directly or indirectly, right, through mentor ship or through just offering advice or just through scarf and worksmith and all the rest of it, you, you, you can describe that as a selfish motivation because you get something out of it.
Yeah. But I mean, To me, it's like your motivation to do it wasn't what you got in return, right? It's just that's a byproduct, right? Yeah, so it's less about like, you know, there's no such thing as altruism because it's intrinsically selfish to me It's like altruism is intrinsically symbiotic.
Mm hmm
and the individual rewards that come from that symbiotic relationship Weren't established by an individual motivation to just do what's right by themselves.
Yeah. So I kind of always throw that argument out the window. Yeah,
sure. I mean, I've always been a proponent of, uh, the, the idea of, uh, rising tide lifts all boats. Yeah, totally. Like, it's a pretty simple, simple thing. And, unfortunately, there's a lot of people in our world, let alone industry, that, um, don't think like that.
Yep. And it's always us against them. Yes. It's a zero sum game. Yes. Like. It's kind of nauseating. You know where you
see the most, um, like inexplicable, indisputable evidence of that in business? South Melbourne market. Yeah. Yeah. You go there and you see there, it's, it's a family. Yeah, sure. No one is competing with, it's just like, man, every, you put all these business owners in a small confined space and they're all looking at it from this one perspective.
The more people we get to the market, the better it is for everyone. So if someone, you know, your direct competitor might run out of takeaway coffee cups, you hook him up. Yeah. You don't even stop for a second to go. No, no. It's like if that guy's business isn't running as well. Yeah. That's more people having a bad experience in the market.
Yeah.
Yeah. I love that. And. Unfortunately, I think we're seeing less of that. Yes, so true. And it all starts to become a little bit us versus them. And I've seen a lot in our industry, unfortunately, where someone's always looking for an adversary to go up against. And it's like, we're running restaurants.
Like, why are we fighting?
It's crazy. It's not always the hero's journey. Yeah, exactly. And I
think, um, Um, a big part of Bardleby's success in the early days was literally because we were able to integrate into a little community of venues around that space at the time, the teams that were in the venues around us at Black Pearl, Bad Frankie, Above Board, us, um, we would just literally send people around to each place.
Um, yeah, And there wasn't a night that someone didn't come in from one of those venues on recommendation. And it's just like, building that community. You could look at it and like, Oh, fuck them, another competitor. It's like, just fucking get along with them and support them. And they, you know, we were the newest out of those businesses to open.
And it was open arms,
right? Yep. Have you, have you, have you read, um, Co opetition? Yes. Adam Brandenburg? Yeah, yeah. I feel like that's a great example. Cool.
It's really an example. And I think, um, it's, I've read that 10 years ago, I don't know what book or how I learned it or where it came up, but I knew from a pretty early age, not early age, but early in my business career, I'll call it or professional career was the best way to excel in your industry was to help build the community.
Around it. Right. And when we started Worksmith and started doing what we were doing there for me, it was The idea is like the community's always been there. You just need to help facilitate it. Nice, right? That's so cool That's it. So true. And yes, Worksmith's a pretty unique example because it's literally for the hospitality to hang out and work in Test shit in come to events in like that's that's we try to create a we did create a hub around that but um When you talk about hospitality businesses You You might have the best sight you've ever seen in your life to walk into great deal.
You build it. But if you're not looking to the left and right of you and be like, who's around here for me to lean on and how can they lean on me and how can we build a community or how can we become part of that community? It's like a new tenant going to South Melbourne markets, probably like this is the best thing ever because everyone's amazing.
I want to, I want that site, which is better for the South Melbourne market as a whole and people go into it. But if you're going into a space where. The people around you are zero sum, and don't actually want you there, and they see you as a competitor, um, then it's not going to go very well.
It's not, it's never going to be, it's that whole thing about, um, There's only win win or lose lose.
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So true. Hey, so I, um, this was supposed to be practical and we just immediately launched into like 40 minutes of like quite philosophical, which I love. I'm here for it. Right. But I think, um, I'm just going to give up on my promise to Sash that I'd try and make this a short episode. Oh, we're 42 minutes in.
Nothing practical's come out of it yet. All right, well, let's try and like salvage the practical piece, right? So you said, you know, most important parts of everything in business. You need to know the why. Then it's the who you work with. Yes. And then it's the how you do it. So let's go into the other two.
Yeah, the who. Is this in order, by the way?
Uh, yeah, absolutely. Okay, cool, cool, cool. I mean, the, the how and who can. Come together. That can interchange. Yeah, that can interchange. Or, or be concurrently. Well, yep. Both. Yeah. Because you can, um, start with the, how I realized, holy shit, I've got so many gaps in my knowledge that I need some more who, who other than me, which I think a lot of people are scared of asking for help and scared of partnering with people because I think it might come from our parents generation and I hear a lot of people are careful who you partner with.
It's true. Right. Right. But it's also, it can be extremely positive as well. Um, totally. And I certainly couldn't do, uh, what I've done over the last sort of eight, 10 years without having business partners, number one. Sure. Um, and, uh, going through that process of working out who you wanna work with is extremely important.
And for me, the two differences, one was when I was 23, I guess. Um, and then the other was a few years later, but with someone I'd had already known for 15 years. Right. And the difference was huge, right? Yeah. Um, one was like hotheaded. Want to open a venue, just get me in there and I'll be raring to go. Yeah.
Um, and we did some great things, obviously, um, which have now come to an end, but, uh, and then the other one was with someone I'd gone to school with, uh, known for being a 10 plus years, we've known each other now for 20 years, basically, um, lived in each other's pockets for the last sort of five plus. Um, and you know, going through the why behind that is, is pretty easy.
It's like, you know, we have the relationship that literally call me, call each other any time of the day and we'll be there for each other. Right. Um, and to have someone like that as a friend is, is amazing, but then also as a business partner is easy. Did
becoming business partners change the friendship?
No, it strengthened it
because Strengthened it. Great way to put it. Yeah, Roscoe was a year ahead of me at school. Okay. So, he was always, you know, different year level. Um, finished school before me, obviously. Got it.
But were you guys mates in high school or you just knew each other in high school? Yeah, we were mates in high school.
Ah, cool.
We worked together as well in high school as well. Right. What did you connect
on in high school, just out of interest? What was the thing, because if you're one year apart, that's not a normal friendship? Yeah, sure. So what was the
Uh, one year apart, I think it was because we worked together, definitely.
Oh, okay, got it, got it. Where at? And we worked at a little bakery. Okay. Um, up in the hills in Emerald. Classic. And, uh, yeah, partied as teenagers, um, back then. Listening to Blink 182. Exactly. He and I went to Blink 182 a few months ago. Oh, that's so funny. It was an absolute dream come true. Boyhood. Yeah.
Dream together to go, um, literally that honestly, um, uh, we both admire each other's work ethic and we both had the glint in our, you know, glint in our eyes that we'd have a crack at doing something in our lives. Um, and, uh, both knew that we'd get out of where we were living up in the hills, which we'd love going back.
Um, he lives still on the edge of, but, um, yeah, yeah. Um, we both knew we wanted to travel. We both knew we want to have a crack at something, although I went into hospitality, he went to property. Um, and then we've sort of gone full circle and come back. But it was, I think for me, the inherent understanding that someone's got your back is probably the most important thing when you're trying to
choose who to work with.
How do you, how do you ensure that though, if you don't have the luxury of like a 20 year relationship?
Yeah, I think. I would never recommend someone going in blind to a business partnership if you haven't worked with them before. I think that's probably the biggest one. It's a big one, isn't it? Um, and for me, uh, with a few people I'm working with now and, and helping get into their own venues, I'm only doing that A, because I want to help them, they're great people, but also B, I've worked with them closely.
Got it. Right? And I've seen them work closely together as well. Mm hmm. Yeah. Thank you. for a long time. And without that vetting, it's just too, it's no man's land. Cause you don't know. It all might seem, it's like the idea when you hire someone and it's like, everyone fucking looks good in an interview and everyone's going to put the best foot forward for the first month.
But when the shit hits the fan and everyone's stressed, how do they act? Are they throwing plates across the kitchen or are they like the calm in the Yeah,
totally.
Um, And I think, and I, essentially that's, you know, I can be pretty off the cuff and a bit of a rager sometimes when I'm unhappy with something, but in like, I'll call it a passionate Italian way.
But in service, I was always that person that could, step back and try and work it out, right? Um, without getting angry. And I want to see, I want to work with people like that. Um, that are able to reflect. So I think that, that how, sorry, the who you work with, um, it's like you would never. Pick a footy team without watching the players play, right?
I mean Essendon probably done that for the last one. Um, Um, and it's so true in, in what we do and in any business really, like you want to see how that person performs. Um, yeah, 100%. And performance is one thing, but then um, who they are is another as well.
What if you don't have the ability, like let's just say for instance, right, you've got the opportunity to um, Get an absolute peach of a deal, right?
It's with someone that you haven't worked with. And you've got six weeks to, to say yes or no. Would you, is that a deal breaker straight up? It doesn't matter how good the deal is. If we haven't worked together, I'm not, I'm not at the table. Or is there a workaround to that?
It's risk versus reward. If you can sit there and go, I am financially struggling.
Yeah. I am. Uh, I've just left my job, I want to do something for myself, this person's given me an amazing deal. You know, I get why people take that deal. Totally. I'm not going to sit here and be like, well, you know, you
might regret that. It's like,
yeah, you might, but you might not as well. And you're in a position now where you might regret it.
It might be just you, but it also might be a family, you might have kids, you might have financial obligations. And I think in our industry, we have a lot of people that are kind of naysayers in the commercial space. Um, they want to be the artist and, you know, open the cool spot that, you know, makes no money and whatever.
It's so cool that I'm really living my purpose out here. It's like, that's awesome. Good for you. Yeah. There's other people that have a lot more, uh, financial, you know, potential. You know, issues, or they need, um, they need money to live, right? Yeah, yeah. And, um, You know, early days of BioLiberty, I was that person that was just like couldn't give a shit about the bottom line.
Right.
You know, I'll run a sustainable business as much as I can. Of course. And I wanted to make money. Yeah. But I want to make the best thing possible. Yeah, totally. Totally. And I'll work the other shit out later. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. The priority was that.
Exactly. And I get why people are like that. But when it comes, um, around, around the next time and you're like, well, I've got a family now.
I need to make. The financial decision as well. I understand why people make that, um, you know, to give a real world example. And I'm happy to fucking throw numbers out there. I don't care. But when I came out, you know, announced that I was coming out of my businesses, I was offered a lot of money to go to start a new restaurant group.
Yeah. Right. Okay.
A lot of money, more money than I could ever, you know, five years, 10 years before someone said, Oh, and that this amount of time someone's going to offer you.
Um, I'd be like, you know, I don't have the financial acumen to do that anyway, but, uh, yeah, I'd be like, you're dreaming. When that sort of stuff happens, you're like, first of all, it's gratifying. It's like, Oh, someone thinks I can do my job, right. That's pretty good. Yeah. It's validating. Exactly. But it comes back to the, the why thing.
It's like, I was doing it. I was, I never kind of considered taking it because I obviously had Worksmith and now Grado and what we're doing in that space. I was never going to run off and start a restaurant group because of that. Um, so that's, that's one thing. But even if I didn't have that, it was for the wrong reasons.
Right. It's like, oh, here's a bunch of money to go just start dreaming up places. Was it also the wrong people? Well, this is the thing. It's like the people were, um, it's kind of the dream scenario to be honest, where they're like, here's the money. I'm silent. Go do it.
Right.
Right. That's not the dream scenario for
me.
Yeah, totally. And I've
realized that pretty quickly because I need to be around people that are in
the
shit with me.
It comes back to your idea of like community. Community isn't just something you build outside the business, right? It's within, yeah. And
I need to have people alongside me that I trust and love and that I can see excel as well alongside me.
If I was just doing it by myself, I think I'd really, really struggle. Yep. And you talk about like, oh, it's a blank check, go do it. Mm. It doesn't excite me at all. Yeah, fair. End. Being okay. You talk about the financial piece. It's like, you know, financially probably should have taken that deal, right? But I knew that within myself that it would probably be a short amount of time Where I'd be like, I'm regretting this because I'm not enjoying my day today.
I'm not being fulfilled. Yes I could have brought in people around me to help run the venues and be great managers and that sort of thing But yeah, my my goal now is to You work alongside people that are in it with me rather than just me being the number one.
Well, but you stated it so clearly before, right?
It's about be happy. Yeah. You know, and if that, if that is the decision is that if that's the decision making framework, then it could have been three mil, it could have been four mil, it could have been 10 mil. Yeah. It's not going to stack up according to that return factor. No, absolutely not. And
I think, Thinking through it the last sort of few months.
I know that restaurants will be on my horizon one day. And they'll look very different to what they would if I was to open more, you know, immediately. Um, but. I know that I'm extremely happy in what I'm doing now, day to day. Mm-Hmm. And with, more importantly with the people I'm doing it with. Yep. And I've got an incredible business partner.
Um, I've got, you know, we've got an amazing team around us Mm-Hmm. Um, that we've built over the last few years that are sort of mainstays of the business now, which is incredible.
Yeah.
Um, so to kind of look to the left or right of me right now, it's like, well. I know I've got the right team and then to look, um, at the board that we've got as well and our investors Dream like honestly absolute dream people to have around us.
Um, so for me Uh, i'm extremely proud of what we've built and the people we've chosen to work with Um, and you talk about luck and this sort of thing. I believe in luck to a point But I also believe in putting in the work to get, to get the, to be lucky. What was that um, The quote of like the harder I work, the luckier I get.
Yeah, Ted Lasso. Is that Ted Lasso?
Oh, I think he said it, but probably someone else said it. Yeah, so I think someone else said it. But it's so true,
fuck. Yeah. You know, apart from randomly winning the lottery, it's like, you gotta work pretty hard to be lucky. And, um, yeah, I think that's starting to, starting to really show just because of those early decisions of who we Yeah.
Okay.
So, so coming back to that then, like, you know, the who, right? Like, so the first criteria is you got to know them effectively and, and whether, and if you don't know them and you don't, and you haven't known him for 20 years, either work together in some capacity. You know, um, someone told me once that like before you marry someone, you should travel with them.
It's very true. Well, this
is a funny thing. So Vicky and I aren't married. I've been longterm engaged, but. She is a, has traveled way more than me. I've always been very jealous of that. And it's always like, things break down when you're traveling because people don't know how to get around when you're traveling.
Vicky's the opposite. Right. Vicky is an absolute gun. Yeah, got it. When you're overseas. Yeah. in Melbourne. She's lived 10 years. Couldn't get around the corner with the doesn't know. Yeah. She doesn't take notice, but overseas I don't even do any prep going to a new city. Yeah. Cause she just knows you just rely on that.
But to that point it's like traveling with her. It was like, yeah, okay. I get this. It makes sense. And it's so true with business partners. It's not a bad call. Maybe she'd go away together. Yeah. Um, I think it's like, yeah, either, either need to know them or. Trust someone. This is the iffy bit. Trust someone who has worked very closely with them.
Got it. And known the relationship over time. So like I'm endorsed. I don't think you should, if it's an endorsement where you haven't seen that relationship ever, and they go, oh, this guy's really great. You should work with him or her. But if you've sort of, Viewed that relationship sort of go along and then that person says, oh, this person loved to work with you.
Yeah. Yeah. I can vibe with that a little bit. Sure. Okay. And then you can kind of do due diligence from there.
Okay. So, so you, you either, so you need to, you need to know them or know someone who can vouch for them deeply. Deeply. Yeah. Um, if you can do a little bit of stress testing, that would be great.
Like go on a trip together or you can, you can actually engineer. I mean, so, you know, we operate in a certain, um, echelon of business that is just a speck in the, in the landscape of it, right? Like, so, you look at like corporate structures and other, and they, they've got systems for this shit, right? Yeah, of course.
And it's like, you can very easily facilitate team dynamic sessions and, you know, organizational development sessions and social roles and you can do all that stuff. Um, and the best thing you can
do in rest in restaurant world is go to a pop up.
Yeah,
I was just going there. Go do heaps of pop ups.
Exactly. Do a couple. You can do 3 4 pop ups and you know really quickly. They're the best scenario because you haven't, you're not in your own venue. You have to work with multiple stakeholders. Um, you have to try and sell it out with no marketing base. There's going to be curveballs. You're
going to get to know people at this.
You know there's a great quote that I read once that talked about how it's easy to Love someone at their best, but true love is when you can love someone at their worst. Yeah, it's hectic, right? 100%. Yeah, and you know what's funny? I got really lucky. He's um, Allie and I, the first time we traveled overseas together was on our honeymoon, but it was sweet.
Oh, thank God. Yeah. It's a good go either way. I remember getting on the plane and then remembering that, that, going, oh shit, didn't tick that box. Thankfully it was like the best thing ever. Yeah. Um, but yeah. Okay. So, so that's some good groundwork. Can I throw something else at you? That's a little bit more unromantic, um, and it's some of the more, Like the less sexy points about, you know, how you should pick the who, like effectively a really good shareholders agreement is going to protect you a lot.
Right. And that's, and those things are fucking dry and really hard. But can I actually put it out there when it comes to, if you don't know someone, the process of developing a shareholder's agreement is a pretty good stress test.
Well, I was having a meeting with a lawyer the other day, literally talking about shareholders agreements and, um, talking to them about it.
I was very open about my position and, and where I wanted to be sort of sitting in that shareholder's agreement. Right. Right. And, um, you having that discussion with them and then with, um, the, the, the other shareholders, you have a pretty quick understanding of where they want to stand if, you know, these imaginary things might happen.
Sure. Sure.
What, what happens if you need to move back home and you want to sell? Yep. Yep. Do I get stuck with this business? Yeah. Or can we sell to get, like if I wanna sell, how do the decisions get made? Yeah. If I wanna sell my shares. Um, do I need to give them you first, right? Yeah. All these like little things.
Even these like, you're right, they're little things, but they're big. They're big when they happen. Yeah, because you want to make a decision on how it's going to go before there's any value attributed to the business. Yeah. Because when the business is worth nothing, you can be really neutral and objective about how it's going to make.
But after you've actually invested some, in fact, it's not even just investing money and time. It's the. Emotional investment.
Yeah, that's honestly going through, uh, an exit as I have. It's 90 percent emotion, right? And then the financial bit links in with the emotion. Because if emotionally you can be okay with it, then, you know, if you're paid half the amount, you probably should be, then you're going to be all right with it.
Yeah. Because emotionally you can, you resolve that. Yeah, exactly. Whereas if you're not emotionally resolved, a dollar. Exactly, exactly right, because it's about the principle. Exactly, I've seen a lot of people go through that.
Oh mate, same, because most people don't do the work of the shareholder agreement.
Like my philosophy is that you either Like, a lot of people sort of, sorry, they do do the work of a shareholder's agreement, but they get their mate who can do it for 400 bucks.
Yeah.
And they end up with a piece of paper that's worth jack shit.
Yeah.
And it's like, if you're gonna do it, you gotta do it.
You know, you gotta spend the thousands, and you gotta put the time in, and you gotta get that document to be perfect. Yeah. The only other solution is to do nothing. Yeah. Alright, just go completely handshake. And then if shit hits the fan, you do the Texas shootout. Yeah, sure. Which is another, um, co op petition reference.
Amazing. Never thought I'd ever reference that book twice in one morning. Twice in one morning. It's so good.
Um, yeah, it's an interesting thing. I think getting the shareholders agreement, um, down pat early just gives everyone the right security. And I'm swearing to people like, oh yeah, don't worry about it.
It's fine. We know, we trust it. Just like, yeah, until you don't. Yeah,
yep,
fully. Um, just having protections and knowing that, um, you know, even. Uh, how something might be structured where you can't just be kicked out, right? And I'll buy you out for whatever I feel like, right? Like, um, I think a lot of people think that if you've got majority in the business, then you can just kind of free will.
And it's like, it's not the case.
No one would set up, no one would responsibly set up a shareholders agreement that way. To allow that, yeah,
exactly. So just, and I think there's one thing, you know, setting it up, Quote unquote properly, but also understanding what your rights are
and
because when the shit hits the fan Which it can is being totally comfortable with it I think the thing about I thought we talked about this a lot in what we do in partnerships But whether it's a partnership agreement or a shareholders agreement, I sort of say partnership.
We could be just like a project you're working on with someone and you write down a partnership agreement. It's like, if you ever have to refer to that agreement, you're fucked. Yeah, exactly. Things aren't going well.
Exactly.
Um, it's really rare. You, you're going to go refer to that agreement and then, um, come out of it happy.
Right? Yeah. Someone's unhappy if you're going back there.
Um,
my, uh, business partner, Orozco says often it's like if the best partnerships are the ones where Both parties feel like they're getting more out of the other party. Yeah. And it's so true. Cause it's like, fuck. And I have a few of those where I'm like, I feel like I'm not giving enough to this.
And then they go like, fuck, I feel like I'm not giving enough to this. And it's like, you get in this really sweet spot where you're constantly trying to. Um, better the partnership and better the relationship and do more for the other person. And if you're in that mindset with a partner or a business partner, then you're already halfway there because it means you're going into battle for the other person more often than not.
More community. You know,
um, I'm working with someone at the moment who's been this unbelievable like mentor, you know, in my life, business wise, in fact more than that, but there's something that he always says is, um, everybody has to feel like they're winning. You know, and when it comes to those hard discussions, you, if you can identify, like you might get there, but if you can identify that the other person hasn't got there, you got to keep talking.
You got to keep planning. And only when you get to that outcome where everybody feels like that, you've achieved the right outcome.
Yeah.
I've
been super guilty of this. The last few years in particular where I feel like I get to the destination really quickly And they get really angry when other people don't yeah I've resolved it in my head in about eight seconds.
Oh my god It's like come on, like i'm okay with this why aren't you? Yeah, and then walking away from like, oh that's resolved and then a week later you go. Oh fuck. No, it's not no one
got it Exactly. So like going back
and i'm feeling
very seen right now. Yeah
Yeah going back i'm gonna go through this again and again and again.
It's not about um, You I don't want to come across like that's an intelligence thing at all. That's experience. You're right. Um, and also being able to put things aside really quickly and understanding what's best for the people and for the business. And sometimes people latch on to things that are so incredibly important to them.
Yeah. Whereas I sometimes will go, Oh, that's not important, just a bit of a throwaway and move on.
Well, you, you, you, I think you strike me as the sort of person that can. Either process or detach the emotion quite quickly. Yes. And a lot quicker than others. Yeah. Um, which is, you know, you got to do that at your own peril, don't you?
Yeah. A hundred percent. I'm always, um, the type of operator or person in life generally is like progress over perfection.
Right. Always. Yeah. Type three enneagram. Yeah. I'd prefer
to, to try a hundred things and get 99 of them wrong to get the fucking golden. Yeah. Totally. That'd be like. Let's not make a decision or not do something because it's not quite perfect yet.
It's like, fuck that. Like you can't learn anything by doing that. Yeah. Or it takes a lot longer to learn. Um, and that could be anything from a tiny project to opening a venue to like, sure. I want to move on and test the waters with. Whether it's, um, you know, usually customers or guests, um, in a venue or with a new product is getting in as many hands as possible, getting feedback rather than being like, Oh, I'm going to hold this back because I want it to be perfect.
Yeah,
for
me, that doesn't
gel well. Doesn't work. Yeah. It's just not realistic. Hey, I, um, I feel like a lot of people that are listening to this, it might be too late. To do the shareholders agreement, they might be in the business already. So, but I feel like we've given them, like, I think maybe we should talk them through the Texas shootout.
Cause that's a, that's a really, it's a good one. It's a good tactic to have up your sleeve. Right. It's very good. Um, do you, do you want to explain it or do you want me to explain it? Okay. So, um, so basically the Texas shootout, so say for instance, you and I have gone into business. And we didn't do any of the right due diligence, and we realised, you know, we opened this great venue.
Um, cause no doubt we would. And say for instance, after we've done it, a year in, it's like, alright, you know what, we just, we can't get along. Like, Essendon keeps beating Carlton every time they play um, and you just can't cope with it. We're gonna have to, we're gonna have to part ways, but we haven't agreed on how we're gonna do that.
So all we know is that we need to get out. How do we do that in the most fair way? Okay, we're trying to negotiate who did what and who owns what and who put in what that's just a dessert. We'll never get there, right? It'll never happen. Um, so the Texas shootout principle will say one of us will make the other an offer.
Um, and if that person refuses that offer, they've got to purchase the business for that price. Yep. So that, what that does is, so that would, that would be me say, say for instance, I say to you, I'm going to make the offer and you know, I think the business is worth a mil, but I want to like lowball you. So I'll be like, you know what?
I'm just going to, mate, it's not worth a mil, mate. You're dreaming, right? I'm going to offer you 750. If you go, well, no, it's not worth that. Then. You've got to pay for, you, you, you effectively, that's what I'm going to get for the business. Exactly. So I'm not going to lowball you. No. Right. So it keeps both of us super honest.
You
find a meeting point. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it makes you, Get you into that position, um, headspace where you want both people to win. Totally. Because if both people are you in that scenario. Yeah, exactly.
And you know that it's like, hey, if I, if I lowball the offer, then that's what I'm going to get for it.
Exactly. So I've got to do the due diligence before I put that offer in. Yeah. And both people end up having to do the due diligence that they otherwise would have had to do in the first instance if the shareholders agree. So, um, we might have just lost a lot of law firms a lot of money. Yeah. With that tactic.
They can afford it, trust me. Yeah, totally. Um, okay, so, um, let's go to the how. Yep. Okay, um, can we do A million, a million hows. A million hows. Yeah. Just again, unfair question, break it down for me. Break it down.
Uh, the how is specific to, um, okay, I've got my, um, I've got my why, I've got my business partners, I've decided I'm going to be crazy and do it by myself. Um, and essentially breaking it down into the areas of the project, right?
So obviously there's the food component, there's the Bev component, there's the build, right? And then what I'll call generally marketing and PR. There's a lot that falls into that, but I'll just call it marketing and PR. Um,
and then the
team.
I'll The team. Okay, so, hey, so can, can I put food and and drink or beverage as you put, can I put that into one category of product or is that too Yeah, you can.
Too risky. Yeah,
you can call it product.
Okay. So there's the product, there's the build, there's the team. Yeah, and there's the marketing. Marketing pr. Marketing pr.
Yeah. Okay. I think if you just start with those buckets. Yeah. Those are great buckets. Yeah. Work out who's going to. That's why I was probably hesitant saying product is one is because you need to decide who's leading each bucket.
And very rare that one person leads both. Sure, sure, sure, sure.
Okay. So then keep them separate then. Yeah. So food, Bev, where does service fit? Service comes after you're open.
Okay.
And that's in team. That's in team. Yeah. Okay. Got it, got it, got it.
Um, so for me, it's, yeah, breaking it down like that. Okay.
Deciding who's going to be the project manager of the whole thing. Okay. So top line.
Got to be one person, one person driving the car.
Doesn't, and people be like, yeah, but, uh, that person's a chef and I'm a bad person. Why am I reporting that? So it doesn't matter. It's about project manager. Project management has nothing to do with, um, getting involved in the decision making of what.
No, it's,
it's, you're pretty much a whip. You just like, yeah, just
like he's, he's the Gantt chart.
Yep.
All right. Here's the list of shit we need to do. Are we on track? Yeah. Right. When we're in a meeting, here's the agenda.
And the person wearing that hat is, it doesn't matter what their job title is. They're just, they're there to make sure that.
The things we said we need to do got done on time.
Exactly.
And if they didn't, we know why and how to fix it. And, you know, identifying that. Yeah. How do you, what do you use for a Gantt chart? Have you got a platform that is your go to? Uh, InstaGantt is very good. Get out of here. InstaGantt. Is it better than Trello?
Fuck Trello is pedestrian. Get
out of here, man. Trello is the best. First of
all, Asana is better than Trello by a mile. All right. But
you need to, it's like saying like, um, a Ferrari is better than a Prius. Like of course it is.
Exactly.
But you're never gonna use all the power of a Ferrari on the street.
It's completely inefficient. No, you're not. Okay, so if you don't know how to code, you don't need to be using Asana. Alright, straight up. I don't know how
to code. Yeah, so what the fuck? Trello's great. Nah.
Alright, alright, come on, talk me through yours. I mentioned Asana
because InstaGantt plugs into Asana.
Okay, okay, okay, there's a plug in. So you've
got Gantt chart and task management.
Oh, and one. Okay, got it. Uh, how, how much do they cost? Expensive. Yeah, see, Trello's
free, bro.
Um,
Trello is free. For a reason. But I think you could go full, um, like, the bear. Um, which I'm sure most people in the industry have watched.
And it's just come out again yesterday. I'm one episode in and loving it. Oh really? Do you love that show? Love the show. I hate that show. You know why I love it? Why? Cause it's the closest representation, apart from like the crazy dramatisation of some things in the family. Okay, yeah. To be honest, it does happen to people.
Yep. But the actual restaurant operations and references to True. They nail it. They nail it. Yeah. Whereas no other show or movie has nailed it.
No, that is very true. No one's nailed it like that. The bit that I don't like though is that it kind of glorifies the toxicity.
Yeah, it does. But as it dives in, the first episode of season three is like basically a montage of his experience.
And it shows how fucked it is as well. Just so stress and trauma inducing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so It does drama, it does glorify it a little bit, but you also realise this is pretty fucked
up. Yeah, it shouldn't be done, yeah, sure, sure.
Yeah, I say, I reference that because when they're building the restaurant, they literally do the big calendar on the wall.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I actually like that as well, even though I'm like, I'm kinda tech driven in how I manage things now. Yep, yep. Um, I do like the pen and paper as well. In those settings, you're building a restaurant. Yeah, yeah. Like, right on the wall. Yep, totally. And you can literally, together, have a fucking What Tradies would call a toolbox meeting at the start of the day, and stand there and go, Alright, this is how long we've got.
What's today? What's this week? What's next month? Man, planning out
stuff with post it notes and a wall is actually the best way to do it. Yeah, you can visualise digitise it later. Yeah, exactly. Um, so I think, can I just quickly say though, where I think a lot of people get stuck
Yeah.
Is they do the post it notes on the wall?
Yeah, and then they think that's it. That's it Yeah, it's like no, no, no, no, no No, you got to take all that and you've got to timeline it and put due dates and allocate resources and build a Gantt chart Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, but the resourcing I think is the most important thing on that Um, but yeah going back to like who leads what having an overall project manager is really important And that could just be one of the owners.
It could be your first employee. It could be you Yeah, anyone. It could be. Have
you ever outsourced that? Like making a complete neutral interview? Yeah. How'd it go?
Pretty well and only in the instance because I wasn't working in the business. Right. So a new venue So getting essentially a project manager who's actually the builder.
Sure.
They're not gonna help you with the marketing page. No, totally. They're just managing the whole site. Yeah. Yeah, and it's very Uh, it can be costly, obviously, but if you're not in a position to be there every day, you need someone to do that.
It's the same thing. Someone has to be driving
the car.
Exactly. But if it's your first business, you know, lo and behold, like, you're going to be there every day. Yeah, for sure. Um, and be the point. So, yeah, one of the business partners is probably preferable. Yep. As that sort of go to person, um, for top line project management. And then choosing who is going to lead each category, essentially.
Right. So, who's your head chef? Yep. Who's running beverage? Is it just the venue manager that's also going to do Bev, or is it a big enough venue or is it dedicated enough to be like a Bev manager or a bar manager even? Um, and then there's obviously some categories within Bev, right? Like, okay, who's going to write Bev?
The cocktail list.
Got it. Who's gonna write the wine list? Got it, got it. All that stuff. Yeah. Um, but, but all of those people in that team are still gotta be answerable to one person. Totally. Yeah. Yeah.
They're still need be run at, at, at a top level. Yeah. Um, then you've got the build. Yeah. Obviously crucial.
Yeah. Not open without it. Yeah. Um, and that's. You would obviously put
like graphic design and stuff in the build or is that in the marketing bit? I put it
it's marketing PR brand would all sort of be in one so there's
kind of overlap in those two Of course. Yeah, and that's why
you need a top line project manager to help bring it all together, right?
Sure because if You know, I see a lot of time it's like, oh we can't launch the instagram. It's got no branding yet You should have done the branding. Yeah A lot of people think the branding you don't need till day one. Yeah, but what happens inevitably is you need Your website built which needs guess what branding and your color selection?
Yeah, you need social media which needs branding and a fucking name. Totally. Um, you need probably a menu You need coasters Like some collateral and some assets exactly all these things start to snowball and then suddenly you realize the branding's one of the first Things you do. Yeah, because it actually Um, speeds up everything else because if you go into the build and, um, already have your branding pretty much done, then suddenly when you need signage, you've already got the, the asset.
Well, not just that, but also what's the first thing that you cover in branding identity, identity, right? Like, why does this business exist? Exactly. What's its purpose? It's, it's spun in a different way there. Cause it's like you, you take that content for the purpose of, um, I guess promotion and copywriting.
And how do you get. The public to get it, but you also need to take that same content and, and sort of like spin it or create a version of it where it's internal for how do you make sure the staff get it and yeah.
Well, I think, um, we talked about shareholders agreement before, like really helps. Um, choosing the right people and understanding your why as well.
It's kind of like if you do shareholder's agreement, very, very quickly the branding comes with that. Um, because it's a similar sort of thing, very different outputs, similar mindset in terms of like, Why are we doing this? What do I need out of it? All this sort of stuff. And conceptually it needs to flow through to, um, your branding.
And as you say, that why comes really strongly into it. Um, and once that's done, you've suddenly got the ammunition to be able to do You know, your builder says, okay, we need the sign artwork, and you're like, oh my god, I haven't even finished the logo. That's gonna be three weeks easily, and then another, usually another three weeks to get the sign writer to do it.
Yeah. And that's six weeks gone. Fuck. Shit. So, it's like, in venues, things snowball really quickly. It
almost gets to the point where you have to, um, You have to settle for signage that is basically just spray painting the name of the restaurant over the existing sign or something like that. Good reference.
Very good reference. For your
information, we had a sign design. We just didn't print it because we had no money. And then it became somewhat iconic that we wanted to change and everyone was like, you can't change it. It's been written about in every article. Totally. People reference it like, oh, fuck. It's iconic.
I've seen the last few years, other people doing the same thing and referencing the video. Classic. That's pretty cool. That's pretty cool. But, um, yeah, I think, yeah, that branding piece is extremely important, because it just bleeds into absolutely everything. Yeah, totally. And then, as you said, like, understanding the ethos behind the venue, the why, then bleeds into, okay, we need to do a PR release.
Mm
hmm. So easy to write a PR release when you know the why behind it. Right. Yeah. Um, And, yeah, then that flows into how you market the venue and then, and then, and then, and then, right? So, you know, things like the shareholders agreement, the brand document are probably, um, and obviously the why. It's crucially important to making sure the actual rollout of the venue goes well.
Yep, for sure. If you don't do some, some of that upfront work in, in those sort of three main areas, it just, every decision that comes across the table that you think is so small becomes a big blown out thing when it shouldn't be.
So can I sequence this out a bit? First step, figure out the why of the concept.
Second step, figure out who you're going to do it with. Third, jump into the how, but know that one of the first things that you need, the first cab off the rank in terms of the how is the brand.
Mm
hmm. Figure out the branding before you've even engaged to build it, before you've done anything. Yeah. Just do that.
Do you need to, you almost would do that before you put the, the, you, oh no, well you've already, you've already worked out the who. So the team's all good and those stakeholders and the gatekeepers of food and beverage and whatnot, they're already elected.
Yeah, mostly, like team is part of the how as well.
Sure, sure. Because inevitably a lot, you know, 95 percent of your team aren't owners. Right. Um, a lot of the time. Yeah. So. Um, team's crucially important in that build out phase because Um, while you're putting the how together, you obviously know really quickly what gaps you need to fill. So, um, if you're lucky enough that two of the owners, uh, are heading up the two main things in a venue, food and beverage, or front of house, generally, then you've got two really strong things covered.
But then you're like, okay, in that instance, we need, we both need two ICs. Really quickly because they're gonna be the doers and sure and work alongside us and they're gonna be the point person when we're not there Right.
Yeah,
and then build out the rest of your team from there And also the timing of when you bring those people in like a lot of people obviously don't want to spend the money Which is totally fine.
I get it It's really difficult for first business But your to I see is so crucial and if you can get them in even a week early than you think Think you need them or two weeks or three weeks. If you feel lucky and you can afford it, you can do a month. The pressure they take off is incredible. It's a small price to pay in the grand scheme of things.
Exactly. And the, the result you get, um, from an output of yourself is incredible. Um, but then also the potential success of the venue, I think goes through the roof.
Yeah. I said, can I throw a red herring at you? Something I think that often comes up for people. that prevents them from doing all this stuff in the right order.
Let's call it the mise en place. Yeah. All right. They're doing it in the wrong time or in the wrong quantities.
Yeah.
The thing that often makes that happen is all of a sudden, because, because where I was, what I was going to ask you about is where to site selection. Sure. But sometimes someone just like gets a site.
Yeah. We're going to
say like the classic question is, um, do you come up with the concept first or the site? Exactly. I, I'm very. I always have a few types of venues I want to open, in the back of my mind, that I'd love to be a part of, or
That you're just waiting to find the right site. Exactly, so when a
site comes up, you're like, that thing.
Is that what happened with Liberty? Um Like that was in your head? No,
that, well, yeah, that's a really good point. That was a site first. Okay. And we actually spoke about doing a pizza restaurant there first. No way. Yeah, which inevitably became Campitano, the next site. Um But then that was a personnel thing as to why I don't get wine lading because we got banjo on board.
It's like, well, we're open to wine folks. Sure. Yeah. Um, so that makes sense. And I think for me, I always like the idea of being able to flex both ways. It's like, but I actually have found it's harder with, through experience that if you've, it's like, okay, I need to open X venue, whatever, much harder to find the right site.
Yes. Whereas if you. You're gifted a site. Um, just by way of coincidence or someone knocks on your door and talks to you about it or you walk past it and you're like, Oh, that's nice. Yeah. Or, you know, the classic, um, uh, you know, I've always loved that venue one day, if that becomes available, which has happened multiple times with me, um, is that you need to jump on it and you make it happen.
Um, but yeah, I've, I've always got in the back of my mind, a few things. And then aside from that, a few people as well. That's like, Oh, if The right site came, site came up, then, um, I've got this conceptually this idea of a venue that would be perfect for this person.
Right. To do it. Right, right, right. Right?
So,
and I've been involved in things where I've found a site and actually handled it, had nothing to do with the business. I mean, like, you should go look at that site. Classic. Because you could open a great whatever.
Yeah, sure. And just because you know that it's the, yeah, that's, that's pretty sick. I mean, I, I, I guess you can go either way though, you know, like I think if you, if you're working on the why the whole time, but you have no idea where you're going to do it and you've got all this time to figure all this stuff out.
Great. But then all of a sudden someone just comes along and goes, man, check out the rent on this joint and you do the due diligence and it all just stacks up. Yeah. You can then almost not reverse engineering. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say fast track, but that's the wrong term for it. Cause it doesn't, that implies you rush it.
It's really interesting. Cause Yeah. My operational brain goes straight to the reverse engineering of that idea is, uh, yeah, here's a site. It's great. Rent.
Mm.
Reverse engineer to the point of just financially and go, it's this much rent. Yes. Okay. I know rent needs to be less than X percent.
Yep.
Okay. It needs to make two and a half million dollars.
Right. It's this, whatever the size is as well. It suddenly starts self selecting. Yeah, exactly. It's like, uh, it needs maintenance. Two and a half million and it's only 60 seats. Yeah. . It's like, I'm not opening a cafe. Yeah, exactly. Like it's gonna be really hard to make that money out of a cafe.
Yeah. Or Exactly.
'cause even outside of the seats, it's even, um, foot traffic. Yeah. What's a foot traffic? All those factors. And it starts, it
actually starts self selecting what you should do there. Right. Right. Um, and then suddenly you find yourself in a place like, okay, it needs to be a 60 cent. 60 seat middle rung restaurant at this headspin, this turnover to hit the two and a half to make it viable.
So suddenly you've, you've brought it right down to, okay, it's definitely a restaurant. It's mid level. Okay. Now I've got to work out what type of restaurant it is.
So, you know, it's funny though, that is still incredibly purpose led. It's just purpose based on functionality rather than philosophically. Yes.
Absolutely. Which is, which is, fuck, you could argue equally if not more, you know, and so, so I think we've, I
think we've all seen venues open in spaces they shouldn't. Okay. And you're like, why the fuck is this so big? Yeah. And it's a cocktail bar with no food. Yeah. And we're in Melbourne and half the capacity is outside.
Oh man. And you're like, you know, the rent's 150 grand. Nightmare. Good fucking luck.
Yeah. Nightmare. But, I mean, so, so, but there's a lot of people that, uh, in that category, maybe not to that extreme, but there could be a lot of people listening to this going, Fuck, I signed a lease, I didn't even think about whether it's 5 percent of my turnover or not.
So, if we were to say to anyone who's in that position, Don't lose hope. Because you can retrofit this, these calculations, right?
Yeah. You can make adjustments, but that has to come from somewhere.
Yeah. But, but, but the good thing is if you're not the good thing, but, um, one of the positive aspects of saying, fuck, I've been operating this business for a year.
I'm not making ends meet. I didn't do any of those calculations that, that that guy was talking about.
Yep.
Do them now. Right. And just, it makes you restructure. Exactly. You're like,
okay, it might not be a whole overhaul and you're not going to change the brand. Sometimes that happens, but you might go. Okay.
I need to make 10 more ahead on food. Yeah. There you go. I'm going to get better sides. I'm going to push my stacks harder because people are just coming in for one main course and f ing off. Yeah. Um, or the adversity of that, I need to make an extra 25 ahead in Bev. Yep. I've got no cocktails. There's only one cocktail.
If only there was a
company that could
provide
those. Yeah, I'd f ing slip that Grada. au? Yeah. Um. Um. But it's so true. And, uh, you know, not to sell us like selling in these sorts of contexts, but we've over the last couple of years, the way we've worked with people in the drink space has been incredible to watch and talk about helping people. But also that's your business as well.
This is the perfect example where I've been able to go in places that are doing no cocktail revenue and you literally just help them enable that and the numbers are incredible. And. Um, I just use that obviously that real life reference is what we do But there's lots of examples of that in venues for sure where you can go in there and um There'll be a gaping hole in their business where you're like, that's money.
Yes, so you're not making yeah, that might be you've got No wine. You know, you haven't got enough wines on the list. Your food selection is 50 percent of what it should be. Like, there's, there's lots of these, um, examples. But you go in and adjust, it'll make a huge difference.
Absolutely. It gives you that viability that you're lacking.
And I think you can do it one of two ways, right? Like, you can sort of look at it and go, Okay, I need, I need either my, um, Check spend to be an extra 10 bucks, you know, or I just need more people. Exactly. You know, Bums
on Seats is the, or generally the most obvious thing. Or both. Yeah. Um, is, is the most obvious thing.
I think the biggest learning I'd say from Bar Liberty Days is not being able to capitalize on, um, busyness,
right?
Because we were so small.
Sure.
Right. Cause we didn't have upstairs ready, which is a PDR show. We didn't have out the back ready and we headed into winter anyway. Um, but that's the other thing.
It's like a lot of people focus on, okay, what happens if it goes wrong?
Right.
Not that many people look at it as, What happens if it goes right and it goes really right? Yeah, what do we do in that scenario? And is this the right venue? Yeah. Because if the concept I have, I believe in so much. I've got the right team for the right time.
Yeah. And I'm in the right neighborhood or focusing on the right neighborhood. Should I be trying to get something that's 20 more seats?
Sure.
Because the difference of 20 seats across, say, say you're open five nights a week Um, and you turn the tables. Let's say once, um, on average, then what's that a hundred seeds, a hundred.
Yep. I'm bad at math. Yeah. Um, uh, yeah. And you say your, your minimum, your base spend is 80 bucks. Yeah. It's a lot of money. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and yeah, I think that's, that's probably a learning from us where like, Those early days in those first few years where it was going really well We just didn't have the capacity to capitalize over the sort of friday saturday night
Sure the
span over time we did because we started doing the private dining and it all helped Um, but being able to have a space that actually capitalizes on your business is is really important And I don't just say that in terms of um more seats as well.
It can also just be on Um, functionality of the venue, right? Because again, Bar Liberty, rabble warren, right? You can't, you can't stand anywhere in that venue and see everyone's, no way. And you could run the same capacity with one less staff member on each side. So that's 70, 80 grand a year you're probably saving if that venue was all in a square,
right?
So, you know why I think people don't think about that scenario of. What if it goes right and it goes really right? Like you guys and most of your venues historically are in the most fucking extreme end of that bell curve Like no one else has really had to solve that problem, you know, oh not a lot of people haven't had that privilege, you know
Yes, there's plenty.
Yes, it's fucking hot out there right now. Restaurants are closing. There is still plenty of people doing okay. That's true. Um, and then I, you know, going out to new venues, it's, it's honestly usually the thing I'm worried about the most. Right. Is them not capitalizing on how good they're actually. Their product is.
Wow. And how good their team is. It's amazing. Um, because you look at the space and you're like, this isn't functional.
Mm.
You're not, um. I talk about functionality over capacity because you're, if you're a busy space. If it's managed well, and it's more functional, you could get 30 percent more people in a night.
Right. And something I've
always banged on about in my venues with managers is like at Liberty, we had people hanging off the fucking walls with glasses of wine while they wait for their table and they loved it. Yeah, exactly. And I think a lot of people are nervous about, Oh, I don't want to sit them there because it's not really a spot.
Sure. Just like pack it in. Yeah. You know, can't afford not to. Yeah, exactly. Um, and the best experiences I've had. Um, a lot of people have had of being in those environments where it's like the music's up, everyone's smiling, it feels really great in there. And it's like, fuck, there's no seats, but God, they made, they accommodated me and we always used to have a drinks pass at Liberty.
That we literally clear the drinks pass to put two people there to have a drink while they're waiting for their table. And every 10 to 20 seconds they'd get, Oh, sorry, excuse me. But they also got the best experience because the bartender was afraid and having a really good chat. You could see the front part of the venue and you could constantly communicate with him when the table was coming up and it's the best thing ever.
So I think it's like, that isn't an overly functional venue, but it's actually just the way you, the way you, uh, implement service and how you treat people and how you bring them in. So, yeah, I think, yes, capacity is one thing. You could just go get a bigger venue, but, um, yeah, functionality and then followed very closely by service to how you, how you make that work.
So if we, if we sort of loop back into the how bit and those, and those categories, And segway it by saying, say I'm in that, say I'm a currently trading business. I haven't run those numbers, but I do now on the back of hearing this, I realized that I'm short 10 bucks, um, ahead, right, on my spend, but I can't, I'm not, I'm not in a great position to increase that because say I'm already using the drinks and I'm already doing all the, all the bits and my concept is very, very niche, right?
And I therefore then have to. Get that shortfall through Bum's on Z. Yep. Um, so I guess like this loops back into the marketing category, you know, because I think a lot of people don't consider marketing. Anywhere near the start of this whole project, right?
No, I think marketing I used to think was a really dirty word at the start of life in business.
Yeah. And I didn't want to do any of it. Yeah. Loved seeing an article from us, that's more PR obviously. But didn't really know how to market the venue. Was
that because you just didn't understand what marketing actually was or how to define it? Probably
not how to define it properly. Yeah. Um, but we kind of accidentally did a lot of marketing and we would never call it marketing.
We just did events. Yeah. Cause we're like, Oh, the early weeks, be quiet. Okay. Once a month, we're going to do a wine dinner. Yeah. There you go. Pick a region or pick a winemaker and we're going to do 12 seats, maybe 20 upstairs if we push it. Um, and it's going to introduce more people to the venue and fill that little gap on that Wednesday night once a month.
Right.
Amazing.
And we just went hard on that. And that went really, really well to the point where it. All the seats started filling up and then we just stopped doing them. Right. And then we focus on bigger events that were like our birthday party was always a big one. We would like go really hard on and do a big, big night.
Um, and a few other types of parties that we'd focus on throughout the year. And suddenly you were in a position where. You were marketing the venue to the people that love you, but then also introducing new people to the venue. Right.
For you, you're creating more brand equity across your customer base.
Huge amount of brand
equity. And it's like, you know, collabs are being done to death now. Yeah. But they're so important. Well,
they've been done to death because they've worked so well. Because they work. So many brands. Exactly. Like
people love doing them. Um, You know, I would argue if you bring a chef from Sydney, let's say somewhere close and bring them down.
The experience in your venue with that chef isn't as good as in their venue up in Sydney. Of course. Yeah, totally. When they collaborate really well though, they create a really interesting experience and a great night. That's unique. Exactly, unique to that moment, right? Yeah, yeah. You know, you never, you never, This is a one off thing.
You're never going to get the same experiences again. And if you can nail that and do it on repeat without exhausting people is, that's a really quick way to build brand equity. Cause it opens up
that, um, It opens up that doorway for that real amazing fleeting unique creativity to happen. Exactly. Like I've been, I've been just crying out for like months now for Kyle at Lilac.
He did this, um, pop up event, um, over Melbourne food and wine and he made a surf and turf main. The best. And it was the best thing I've ever eaten. And I'm like, can you just please put this on the menu? Just be so good. But it kind of can't happen. Yeah. Cause it was special then. You know and just because it was especially in the moment.
Yeah. Yeah, I
think some of I think you're right Some of those things needed, um, you know kind of die on the hill It'd be a fleeting memory about the venue. Yeah, but then others can bleed through really that is true. That is true the only reason um You know ketchup You know, Bar Liberty is responsible for, you know, the fucking onslaught of that dish across Australia.
Um, and that started, uh, Casey served it in a pizza box, um, during the Italian wine dinner that we did at Bar Liberty. And everyone lost their minds at how good it was. It was gorilla pasta from the supermarket with some cheese and pepper, right? And then we're like, you gotta put this on. It's like, Oh, it's a bit simple, isn't it?
And we put it on and the fucking rest is history. Like that's the probably the most ordered dish from that venue, even though it hasn't been on for a few years now. But that was, that went like wildfire. Yeah. And so it's like, That dish would never have probably happened unless we did that Italian dinner.
Um, and there's lots of examples like that through what we've done through events or collaborations, whatever else, it just spawns great ideas and can bleed into your, your business. And it's such a great way to market peers. You're also able to test things that you wouldn't able to test sometimes. So that could be a new dish That could be doing a drinks pairing and that could be a cocktail Yeah, that could be just how to set up your restaurant to fit more people cuz I was a crazy event that you've overbooked But yeah, yeah We can fit 20 more people than we thought we could.
Yeah. Don't worry about licensing.
You're just, you're, you're evading tram fare.
But um, yeah, it just pushes creativity more than anything. And I think people that are great at what they're doing now, our industry do it with less tools
than most. Right.
It's the ones that the classic, you talk about like the blank check thing.
Yeah. People that have opened, What do you mean? Oh, okay. So this is where I feel
like
I've been. Kind of subpar.
Totally.
And you're like, why? Because there's no imagination.
So, you know, there's, um, you can very easily find a lot of case studies and, um, academic papers that talk about the concept of constraint driven innovation.
Yes, absolutely. Yeah.
And you know, what is the best example ever? Like I've probably read at least 20 of these fucking articles and, and out of all of them, the best example, the Caesar salad.
Do you know the
story? This is all I've got to cook, yeah. The GM of that restaurant, Cesar's, he sent the chef home early, and then the owner turned up with four mates after the theatre, and was like, hey, we're starving, tell the chef to just make us something, and sat down.
And the GM's like, fuck. And so he runs out the back, and he's just like, there's no chefs here, I've just literally got to try and put something together based on the leftover bits of prep. And made that salad and look at it today. Yeah, yeah Most famous
salad
in the world.
I think it's so true. And I where I learned That specifically was Attica.
Oh, yeah, right.
How how so then oh a tiny venue Really not equipped to do, you know a 10 plus course dining experience By any stretch of the imagination. Yeah, um, it's definitely better now since they refit. Okay, um, but yeah from its start and ben was very Um in you know Looking at how to serve the best possible.
Food out of that venue,
right?
And we're just working out a way to do it. Got it. And not having the bells and whistles not having just building things himself Working out step by step like what the best things were for the output Without worrying too much that oh, you know, i'd love to have a blast chiller I'd love to have whatever the thing is and it's not it's not there.
Yeah, come up with something. Yeah. Yeah, exactly um We were kind of given the same Uh idea in front of house that adequate was like Make the best experience possible. Yeah. How? Yeah. So, okay. Think through every step. Yeah. Right. And how can you make that 1 percent better, but do it on a pretty close to zero budget.
All right.
And
when we open Liberty. That's a really specific thing about opening venues is that we definitely didn't have the money, right? Spray painted signs, for example. Um, we had no cushions on our bench seats. It was just timber. I remember it was black, black as well. So at night people would go sit down and just fall into the seat and think it was cushioned and just go.
How long did you not have cushions? Um, Hmm. Probably three to four months. It was like, yeah, it was a brutalist building, right? That's what it felt like. Did anyone ever
crack
it? No, not
really. Was this kind of before the times of like brutal reviews? Yeah, definitely. It was
probably on the edge of it. But honestly, you know, good service and good food, good drink.
Makes up for it. Curbs all things. Yeah, that's very true. And, um, Our ethos, uh, or at least mine going into it was like, okay, it's bare walls, bare seats, no cushions. Um, the heating in one of the rooms was fucked in the front room. Um, so it was quite cold. So we had like little space heaters hidden and that sort of shit.
Um, it was all these things wrong with it, but it was like one improvement a week. Got it. Just one thing. It's not a whole like 1 percent compounding idea. And I thought about that from a physical sense of the building. It's like. Okay, this week is a one new shelf. That's all we need. One new shelf to make service easier.
Add that weight of station to put more plates on. One more shelf to put more glassware on. Can we buy twice the amount of glassware so we have less polishing in the moment?
Can
we put a new frame on the wall to make it look better? Can we, can we, can we, can we? So just like one thing a week. And I think we've been stuck in this world, I've spoken about this before on panels and stuff before, and people have been.
Kind of hit me up about it after I'd be like, no, no, no. You've got one shot of opening a venue in this amount of time to get it right. Um, I had a few people from the U S actually say that to me, um, that I know, and it might be slightly different over there, but, um, you know, we live in a world now where people do think they need to open something that's finished.
Right. Yeah. Good luck with that. Good luck.
And I've been finished in terms of the concept, in terms of, um, The, um, aesthetically finished, you know, et cetera, et cetera.
I remember, you know, I remember real quick, I was, you know, one of the greatest projects I've ever worked on was with the fat duck.
Yeah.
And I remember them telling me that like, you, um, you, you haven't nailed the project unless you know that like, Um, four minutes before the first guest walks in, there's still a builder with a screwdriver.
I agree with that. The day we opened Bar Liberty we didn't even have a glass washer. It was getting, it was flooding and it was getting removed and the new one getting put in, it was an absolute nightmare. And all those venues have been like that. Um, you know, a day off, we're doing the last few things. And I've always like, yes, you need a comfortable, you know, albeit cushionless venue to open at the start and be able to deliver the food in a timely fashion.
All the key metrics to just having an okay restaurant experience service can make it way better. Um, but then you can build upon it and just make it better slowly and slowly and slowly. Whereas I've spoken to restaurant owners are like, nah, you don't have everything. I can. You know, unless you're trying to open NOMA, like
you do to chill out, like.
Totally. I mean, all these things you were talking about, right? Like the constraint driven innovation or, or however the words you used for that term. And then, um, this desire to open something, open a finished product. Look, these are all dynamics that you also need to manage within your teams. You know, when you, when you yourself have kind of figured all that out and reconciled all that stuff, you're still going to go, Hey, Hey, I've picked the, you know, I've done everything right.
I picked the head chef, but they're not ready with the menu cause they want it to be X. How do you manage that?
It's pretty difficult. I probably, the example, um, the examples I have now outside of restaurants and more in product, what we do with the drinks and, um, with Grado and homegrown. And I'm, as I said before, very guilty of sprinting, um, on things pretty quickly.
Yeah. Very quickly. Yeah. Um, and try to drag everyone. And I constantly have these conversations around, um, progress over perfection and really sometimes dragging people and they're like, please, mm. I can see. This is great. Yeah. And I need you to know this is great what you've done. Mm. We're gonna go Mm-Hmm.
And we're gonna go real hard.
Mm-Hmm. .
Um. Because at the end of the day, you are running a business as well. Um, and when you've created something that needs to be in the market more quickly, or you need to do 10 times the amount of events you're doing or whatever the thing is, why you need to go quick is that, um, Yeah.
As we said before, a lot of people aren't on board with that. Yeah, sure. Sure. And they need to have like the slow steadier approach. Sure. Um, which you need to totally respect 'cause those people are really important in business. Mm. Because it does make you stop and reflect, but you
also should have worked that out when you're deciding the who anyway.
Exactly. And I think it's not to say those per people shouldn't be in the business, but you need to work with them in a way that they feel that. They've got enough, um, understanding what you're doing and the why you're going so fast to be comfy in what, in, in doing that.
Um, it comes back to that clarity, doesn't it?
I mean, when my mind goes to with that sort of thing is, you know, it's the, it's again, it's another unsexy kind of answer, but it's about the project plan. You know, like if you tell me, Hey man, like if I'm saying I'm your head chef and you're like, Hey, I need you to have that menu ready by the
Yeah.
And I don't know anything else around that due date.
Then I guess the amount of time I'm going to spend on that is going to be, you know, really just fairly unanchored. But if I can actually go, hey, I need it on the 1st of May because on the 3rd of May we've got this press release happening and we need photos for this. And then I can just see all the web and how my one task impacts those 17 other things.
Well, that project management becomes incredibly important. Yeah. A lot of the time I've been quite good on that, in that space. But there's been a few projects I've been working on at the moment within the company that, um, we haven't had that drop dead date. Right. Cause we're like, well, here's what we've all agreed on.
We need to hit by this date. Here's the current project we're doing within the company. And then you might have some sub projects. So, and then suddenly those sub projects are like, well, you know, we've all agreed that this other thing is the most important thing. So we'll let these other smaller things kind of just track along.
Sure. And then you kind of come a month away and you're like. It's not having progressed, we're in the same position, why? Because you didn't put a dead, a drop dead date on it. Yeah, totally. And you, you kind of become distracted by the big goal. So in project management, it's like, yes, those big Um, big goals are great, and you need to do them to achieve, but don't forget about the rats and mice as well, because they can come back to fuck you later.
Totally, and it just, again, the amount of times I've seen project plans that just don't have dates on them, or initials on the tasks, or whatever. Yeah, well, it just turns into like the weekly project meetings end up just becoming unstructured and unproductive and it's Well, they
end up becoming this carbon copy of the conversation you had the week before.
Yeah. Um, and everyone just goes, Oh yeah, I was meant to call them, I haven't Yeah, oh god. Or, yeah, yeah, I'm working on it, I haven't got a call back. Or, I haven't, and it's like, it's, oh, you're like, oh my god. While we're having this meeting. Yeah. Insane. That's why I say the other thing, agendas are super important and minutes, agenda and minutes.
'cause the action items come outta the minutes. Yeah. But if you're having project meetings and not doing an agenda and then not doing minutes, there's no point doing the project meeting. Totally because. Um, it's just a combo and gender is really great, especially for people that forgot to do the actions.
Yeah, because if you put an agenda, uh, together, it comes out 48 hours before or 24 hours before, even fucking two hours. Yeah, it's enough to go, Oh fuck. I was meant to do these two things. Smash it out. I've missed that. Yeah. I'll jump on that now. So let's go into the meeting with some information for my team.
Mate, so true. Whereas if you don't do the agenda, then you're doing a disservice to the team. everyone, uh, including yourself. Um, and then it makes the project many much easier to go through.
Hectic. I just, I love how I'm going to, I'm going to start wrapping this up. Yeah. Cause I reckon it is just hilarious.
This poor journey that we've got. It's funny. Like we, we started off kind of going, let's keep it really practical. We went into these deep ass levels of philosophical philosophical conversation and then we just landed in like the most practical thing you could possibly make an agenda right minute. That is Pretty fucking funny.
Um, bro, man, I just feel like we could keep going for another three hours and pick any of these topics. So, uh, man, let's, let's see how the audience like this. And if they do, maybe we'll just do it a bit more on the reg. I mean, I, I personally feel like, you know, you nailed the brief, you know, there was so much in what you said that people are going to unpack.
And in a weird way, maybe how we'll tie this up is that you've come on, with the intention of sharing, you know, your thoughts on, on how to do hospitality, you've ended up sharing so much more about your personal ethos and your personal, you know, um, purpose and meaning. And you, and you talked about being happy, but there was also such a massive desire to help others in it.
Yeah.
And just by sharing your thoughts today, you've, you've again, you know, helped so many people, man. So thank you. Um, it's always a pleasure to hang out with you. It's always a privilege to hang out with you. And I'm glad that, So many other people now get a little bit of a snapshot into the amazing, um, relationship I have with you and the, and the topics of conversation that I get to have with you.
So thanks for coming on, bro.
No worries, mate. Appreciate
 I'll get us
kind of set up, um, you're, you're sweet. Do you need to do anything before we're going to do the intro separately? Sure. So I'll just jump straight into welcome to the show and then we'll just kick it off. Yeah. Sweet with that. Yep. Welcome to the show, Michael Buschetta. Did I say your name right?
That one
never gets it right. I've known you for over 10 years and I still don't get it right. I was impressed, I met someone the other day and they nailed it the first time.
Okay, how do I nail it? Can you talk me through it? What is it?
Michael Buschetta.
Michael Buschetta. Okay, but you can't, you can't like paint me like that, right?
Because you've changed your name. Like I've known you as Michael Peppy and Michael Buschetta. Yeah, fair enough. And I was the one who recommended you should just merge them and call yourself Michael Busceppi.
It's a much better name. Yeah. Well, I've got you saved in my
phone as that. Okay. Well, welcome to the show, Michael Buscetta.
It's honestly amazing to have you here, man. I think, um, obviously we know each other super well and have, you know, um, run similar journeys and I, for one, you know, really value the conversations that we have in the time that we spend together. And I think there's a lot of people in hospitality, That would really benefit from having a bit of a listen in, you know, to some of our catch ups.
Like I think when we catch up. There's, you know, lots of gold and wisdom in those convos, mostly coming from me. Unless it's football related. But I think, um, you know, a lot of people out there are really keen to hear what you have to say about anything hospitality related. So, um, I'm, I'm, I feel privileged to be able to sort of facilitate a bit of a convo around that.
And we're doing this unscripted, right? We're kind of relying on, on our, um, natural kind of chemistry as it were. So, yeah. Uh, it, there's a, there's a, there's a chance this podcast may never see the light of day and we have to actually plan it properly. There's also a world that what comes out is just fire and we do it more regularly because I think there's people that want to hear, um, you know, from people like yourself.
So I guess before we, we start talking about things super hospo specific, do you want to do a little, like a few kind of warmup questions or do you want to just jump right in?
Happy to warm up.
All right. Okay. So let me ask you some random stuff. Let me ask you like, um, just, I'll paint a picture for you.
Just say you're on the way home from work and you haven't eaten all day. And, um, the fuel light pops up on the car. You got to pop into the survey and get some petrol. All right. What, you just need to eat something. What's your, what are you going to right now?
Oh, salt and vinegar chips. Oh, okay. That's a good answer.
If it's a, if it's. Sweet tooth time. It'll be like, uh, a, um, some sort of fucking horrible lolly from my childhood. Like what? Like, a pack of nerds or something. And I'll hide them from my children. And they're never allowed to have them.
So what'd he do with the wrapping? What do you do with the wrapping?
It's full,
full scale. Stealth mode. Yeah, stealth mode. It's like in the pocket, never sees the light of day. But then what? And then you throw it out when you get home? Yeah. And I go to the actual big bin, put it in there and I never
see it. Oh, okay. That's, that's kind of crafty. To be fair, I did try that once, forgetting that we had a ring doorbell thing installed.
Oh no! Ha ha ha! So yeah, I, I now just have learned the lesson that it's actually a lot easier to just buy extra for the kids and then deal with the wrath of Ali cracking it that I've brought sugar home at such an unreasonable hour. All right, let me hit you with another one. Um, do you think, and why or why not like make it make a good case for this, right?
For or against, should they increase the free tram zone in the city by an additional 800 meter radius? Uh, absolutely. Absolutely, okay. Of course. Why? Well, trans would be free everywhere. Trams should be free everywhere. Absolutely. Public transport is called public transport.
So, Who
pays for it then?
The fucking government.
You know, we did some crazy things over COVID where suddenly we had some money to help people and then came out the other side and there's no money to help people.
All right. What about the argument though, that like, if, um, They did that. There's a certain amount of revenue that they're not making that wouldn't then be spent on keeping it running well.
Think about how much they spend on policing.
Right. Tickets. Yep. It's crazy. Sure. You go to all
the stops, there's six offices.
That's a pretty damn good call. So you're saying What are they on? A hundred grand a year each? Fuck, no way. Yes, they 80. Okay, 80. They're on 80. Alright. Six of them sitting there. Yeah.
Come on. Yeah. Ridiculous.
Ridiculous. And they're making revenue from the, like, from people making the mistake. Okay. I'll put it out there. I don't pay for fucking
trans.
Bro,
you can't be saying that shit on a podcast. I'm not allowed to anymore because I've got kids
and
you serious right now? Do you just jump on and jump off?
Have you ever been busted? No.
Okay. So even if you did get busted now, you're still away.
I pay for trains cause I'm not, you know, I'm not jumping turnstiles. I'm not that guy.
Uh, you know, this is, Hilarious, we're like not even five minutes in, I'm learning things about you, I would never have picked that.
I'm a socialist at heart mate, I'm a
socialist. I hate paying for toll roads as well, I do it because I know it's the fastest way, but I hate it in the depths of my body. I'm with you on the toll roads, yeah. You know what I was thinking about the other day, I was thinking of something the other day. It's actually, it's just poor people tax.
Yeah. Totally. It's just like you live. Further out from the city. Yeah, it's poor people. So they stick you for it. It's horrible.
It is pretty horrible But but and you know, I did know you're a socialist, but I did not ever in a million years peg you as a fair evader
I'm gonna get you a t shirt with that. Well, you should put it as your little handle on your description under your Instagram You wanna do one more? Sure. All right. This is a, this is a tricky one. Um, ask this to Felicity a couple of weeks ago and it was a, she had the most hilarious answer to it. So I'm keen to know what you think.
Um, would you rather have a million dollars now or 10 million in two years, but everywhere you go for the next two years, the wifi around you just instantly cuts out. Yeah.
Does that include your phone cuts out? N uh, as in the 5G network? Yeah. Nah, nah, that's, that's not wifi. Oh. Take 10. You're taking the 10. Fuck yeah. What are you, what's your game plan? Whatcha you gonna do for two years with no wifi? I'm patient, man. Okay. But it's not just hot. Hot. It's not just about you.
I'll be hotspot in that shit. But what about everyone around you? Yeah, I don't care about everyone. Every time, every time you go to the office, they're gonna be like, fuck Michael's here. Yeah. I didn't back my shit up.
Internet's gonna,
oh
fuck.
So then women wanna be around me. Yeah. They're probably going to be like, bro, don't come to the office unless it's after hours or something.
I would say the closest people to me, I'd say I'd hook you up with some of that 10 million in
a couple of years.
Just put up with it. Put up with it. Put up with it. Okay. 10 mil. It's 10 mil. I thought
you were going to say in 10 years. I'm like, I'll take the one now because it'll be worth more than the 10 in 10.
Well, no, but I mean, you could also invest
that one mil wisely.
But in two years, you're not going to 10x that.
I reckon I could, but
I can back myself to 5x that, but 10x is a bit
I'll just put it all on Carlton winning the flag next year, right? Like that would Do it now! All right, I think that's good. Are you sufficiently warmed up?
I'm sufficiently warmed up. All right, amazing. Thank you for, um, for doing that. And thanks for humouring me a little bit. I think, yeah, let's get to the good stuff, right? Let's give the people what they want to hear. I'm just going to throw a really unfair question at you. You know, and just put you on the spot because, you know, I think you should be put on the spot given your experience and the amount of wisdom you've got in the game.
Um, just, just give, actually I'll start you with a nice easy one. What are all the most important things involved in opening a restaurant? Four. The most important things. Yeah.
Um. In your opinion. Yeah, I, I put them in sort of two categories. One is who you do it with. And the other one is, um, I mean, there's three categories.
There's why you're doing it, who you do it with, uh, and then how you do it. And love it already. Um, You know, the why is, is the most important thing. Is that
the first
one? That's the first one. Because if you can't answer that, then, and I go into restaurants pretty frequently, I'm like, why does this joint exist?
Right. It's just another joint.
Yep, it's a tick in the box. Tick in the box. Yep. It's a restaurant. Yeah.
Um, which is fine. We need restaurants. Yeah. And people need to eat. Mm hmm. People need jobs. So restaurants can exist like that. Sure. But I think for me, and for people that, uh, You know, hospitality, they live and breathe, they need to, a lot of people go through the industry working for other people, obviously, and, and getting experience and a lot of people go through that, like, I can't wait to open something myself, can't wait to open something myself, which is fine, and it's a great drive to have and goal, but if you don't have a strong wire behind, behind A, yourself in the industry and what you do and who you are, but then also why that restaurant needs to exist and why you should open it.
So I
love this point and I feel like there's a few layers to this point because what you can call purpose or your why or identity, you know, it's all in the same kind of category. Um, firstly, I mean, I have so many questions because I would say, you know, to your point, most people have no clue. It's rare that you go and ask someone that question, why does this business exist?
And they just go bang with like a two sentence compelling answer. So, so firstly, what, what, why do you think so few people? Do the work to answer that question, which is so foundational and so critical.
Uh, It feels a bit kumbaya for some people. I think yeah and um Not many people ask them themselves the deep questions.
I didn't when I started My own businesses with my business partners. It was exactly that it was like i've worked really hard to this point I'm, quite young really driven I just want to open a venue
but then how can but your place is a You You know, arguably some of the most successful in Melbourne, maybe further.
How did you achieve success without clarity on that?
Oh, some luck in that, I reckon. Okay. No, I think when you get enough decent people within the four walls of your business, you're gonna make something
work, right? Could I argue that maybe you were just too It's very much led by the why. It was just more subconscious or unconscious or intuitive rather than cognitive.
Yeah, yeah. I think, yeah, I think that's a fair point. Um, just because I didn't sit down and write it out and journal it didn't mean it didn't exist. Yeah, you still make
decisions based on it intuitively. Yeah, exactly. And when we
first got together to put that, um, you know, Bar Liberty to open, Banjo and I in particular, um, Because it was a beverage led venue, it was the two of us really, um, leading the way on the, obviously on the drinks, and I think Casey on the food, but um, we kind of lamented the fact that, you know, you went into a great cocktail bar, but the wine list was shit, or the beer list was horrible, or you went into a restaurant and the cocktails sucked,
or you
went, you know, just onwards down the journey of different focus venues, and for us, it was like, well, we just need to.
Have everything on the list match up to each other. Yes. It's a wine led venue, but the cocktail is gonna be fucking good Um, we're gonna have great non alcohol selection. This was 10. Oh, this is eight or nine years ago We're not still hadn't really happened. Sure. Um, and that was really important for us and Uh, we weren't going to have a espresso machine, but we made sure we had great coffee.
It was obviously with you and prouds Yeah, so it was just like That was really our why driving the venue itself in terms of the drink solution So it's like you can have these little flickers of the why you might not sit down and have this whole big hard
Did you guys ever write it down? After a couple of years or something, did you end up going, Hey, this is what it is and use it for training documents or did it always just remain?
Yeah. Our one liner was always, uh, a place for everyone to drink everything. But our sort of thinking behind that was like, we're going to have everything that's delicious and great and everyone's welcome to come and encapsulates
it quite well.
Yeah, exactly. And it was about Liberty in its name, like Liberty itself.
We came from fine dining and wanted to, you know, We loved our time at Attica and it was fucking hard work, but we learned a lot, but we also served 62 people a night on, you know, five nights a week and that was it. Um, and you, the idea of a regular there was once a year, um, if you're lucky. So, yeah, there's no regulars and it's obviously very expensive, which it is what it is.
Um, and it was about creating, like, what you could do. Show stopping experiences for people.
Sure.
But going to the Bar of Liberty, it was about opening the door to as many people as we could. Got it. And we're still very conscious that it is not a cheap place to go. Mm, mm. But it certainly opened up the door to a lot more people and the way we structured it at the beginning was, um, you know, someone could come in for a glass of wine once a week in a sack and it's totally affordable.
Got it. Um, and you can't blow the bank a bit.
So can I point something out here? Mm. Um, cause your first point, right? Look, I asked you that. Really simple question, right? How do you open, you know, what are all the most important things of opening a restaurant? Your first response is you've got to know your why.
Yeah.
Gold. Even though we kind of contradict that a little bit with that example, I think it's important for people to understand the difference because You guys, uh, effectively, fine, you didn't write it down, but you were almost quite compelled by what you wanted to do there. Yes. Um, and you were so intuitively motivated by, and also to, to point out, you and Banjo, it's not like you, that was the first thing you'd ever done together.
How long were you working at Attica for?
Uh, I think three and a half years together there.
Crazy, right? So, I mean, the, the, the The craziest accomplishment is you were able to actually work alongside Banjo for three and a half years. But, you know, you guys had three and a half years to build synergy and to build alignment around what you want to do.
So maybe you could almost get away with not writing it down. Yeah. But, but knowing what you know now, if you had your time again, you probably would have, right?
Yeah. We'll just spend a lot more time with it. Sure. And with, with all the business partners and being like, why do we actually want to do this?
And I remember my pitch to banter to come join the team because he's like, is this the one? Is this what we're going to do? I'm like, yes. And this is also what we're going to do. And this was before Liberty even opened. I was like, we're going to open other restaurants literally on this street or close by.
Right. And we did that. Yeah, for sure. Down the road, Felco around the corner. Yeah. Other Felcos
now.
Um, and kind of grow into the community and do it that way. Yeah. Um, yeah. You know, time, time, time's a funny thing like eight years down the path now and I'm now out of those businesses for good reason and it's certainly the right time but You know, I certainly cherish the time I had there But if we did spend more time up front, right, maybe things would have gone a little bit different for sure I mean everyone
yeah and and I mean I just think what's important to point out for people listening to this is that You Having the luxury of like three and a half years of building synergy and cohesion.
That's that's a unicorn like yeah It's hardly anyone is is right now looking at signing a lease with that in their back pocket. So all the more reason why? Having those conversations around the purpose and the why and whatnot is so integral and so critical at the start I've got a little bit of a different theory on it to you I think why people don't spend time on this stuff is because obviously it's so intangible, right?
Like you said, you sort of went down the Kumbaya route. I think that what tends to happen for people is, you know, it's really hard to measure the progress of that conversation. Sure. So if I was like, Hey man, let's go open a cafe over there. Right. Um, and we said, let's spend two hours planning for that business.
We would say we just go and write a menu and cost it and write a roster and put down some functional things like After, if we just said we're gonna, we're gonna do two hours of costings, at the end of that two hours, we would have two hours worth of costings to show for it. But if we went, hey, let's just go sit down and talk for two hours about the purpose of it.
Man, we could spend 20 hours talking about that and have nothing to show for it. You know, because that conversation isn't linear. It's not, it's not like we just start the conversation and then it just instantly clicks. I mean, sometimes it does, but you never know, right? It's like, um, you know, that someone asked, like, Buddha once, like, how long does it take to achieve a light, enlightenment?
He said, well, it can take a lifetime or it could happen in the next 10 seconds. So you may as well start meditating now. Yeah. No, but
I think it kind of circles back to my point, though, is that I had this conversation the other day with someone that I'm helping opening, open a venue that, um, without trying to.
It was actually quite a small decision they had to make, um, on something. It was like, fucking, I think it was, um, the color of something. Right. And I'm like, I know it seems really small, but this is why you do the work. Before, because, um, if you get the why right and understanding what your direction is for the conceptually of the venue and how you fit into it and why the world needs it is that when there's a hundred tiny decisions come up, they're way easier.
Yep. They all become yes, no. Exactly. Because if you don't do the work, you get to these tiny things, you go, hang on, do, should we do that? And like, this is, it should be a really easy decision. And then suddenly you can start falling into the trap of. Well, this is just what I've done before. So I'm just going to go with this one and then you kind of do 50 decisions down the line, little 50 little decisions down the line.
You go, Oh shit, I've turned this into my old work or something like that. And you're like, hang on. If you do the work up front, that decision making is so much easier. And if you've got a strong why behind what you're doing, then. Well, number one, it's fucking easy to get up in the morning and know what you're doing and why you're doing it.
Um, but, in the team itself, there's so much more clarity because you're able to communicate while we're all here every day.
Mm, that's huge. And I couldn't agree more. Like, I think you could over intellectualise, like, what colour the napkins should be. Yeah. For a long time and get nowhere. But when you actually get clarity on the fact that we're just, we're trying to do a fast, casual, predominantly take away, you know, venue.
We were like, who gives a fuck what color the napkins are? Just get the ones that are going to work the best. I
think that's a really good point. It's like you can conceptualize what you're doing through the why is that that little decision that comes up, it just becomes a throwaway. Yeah. Well, it's obviously just fucking do this or you don't do this.
Or why are we even talking about it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. A hundred percent.
Okay. So I got a much harder question while we stay on the why. Right. Um, and I know it's going to be really hard to just be like, You know, pump out a great answer for this because I've, I've personally probably, I think by this stage I would have probably committed like close to a couple thousand hours of study and research on this and there's, and haven't yet found, well, I found something I think is really good, but nothing that I can sort of just easily explain right now.
If you are sitting down with someone to help them figure out their why, how do you do it? What's the process?
I am a bit of a lone ranger when it comes with that, for that, like, I need to do it by myself. Really? Yeah. Okay. I, I struggle. Okay.
What's your process then?
Um, my process is, uh, obviously writing at length.
Okay. What I wanna be doing. Right. Um, and 10 years ago I went down the line of like the classic. What's my 10 year plan? What's my 5 year plan? What's my 3 year plan? What's my 1 year plan? Got it. So like,
so paint the, the promised land horizon and then reverse engineer. And I
think everyone listening will be like, oh, that, that's goal setting though.
That's not why. Correct. That is correct, but But it's
close. It's on the right track. It's on the
right track. And I think the why and your inevitable sort of goal setting, they need to saddle in with each other, obviously, because you can't try and achieve your why. Right. On one side and then have these other goals on the other side that don't align.
Um, and it actually helps doing that goal setting process helps you understand. Well, I want to achieve this. Can I do something I love to get there? Right? Which gives you the reason to doing what you do. That's the why, right? Um, whereas I think a lot of people try and separate it a little bit too much. Um, and I've certainly been guilty of trying to run both races, but that weren't intertwined.
Um, and then you suddenly stop and you realize like, Oh, I'm not doing that. Doing what I love right now. Financially, I seem to be going okay. And, um, I seem to be achieving my goals, but I'm not quite there yet. Happy. Sure. So that's not okay, right? Yeah.
Like there's not enough substance to it or there's something just not quite hitting.
Exactly. So I think if it's like sitting down with someone trying to help them, I would actually just counsel them on how to do it by themselves and giving the themselves the space because we're live in a world now that we're constantly interrupted by everything around us. Right? Yeah. It's impossible, incessantly impossible.
Yeah. And people don't take the time to spend it. Yeah. So you talked about meditation before. Yeah. It's like, you might not be someone who meditates, but go away and get that experience of meditation. You might not be sitting down and, and meditating for an hour. No, but it's, it's that reflective practice.
And you can do that by playing golf or running or riding a motorbike or meditating, you know, it's just. People get it in different ways. Yeah. A hundred percent.
But what all of those things have in common is. Empty space. Yes. Right? In your head. And time to think. Exactly. Like I went, like, I've always been quite guilty of overthinking things.
And I went for a run the other day. I got to the end of it. It was about, I don't know, 50 minutes, let's say. I got to the end of it, and I was just stretching, enjoying the sun. I was like, I did not think of work once in 50 minutes.
Wow. Amazing. That's
very rare for me, right? And I was like, holy shit, like I need that more, um, to give me that space and I felt amazing after it.
Not because I'd worked out, but it also gave me the mental space. We unplugged. Exactly. Got some
perspective, like physical separation, which gives you a different type of perspective.
Exactly. And I was like the, the idea of like flow state, right? Yeah. Yeah. I get into flow state and everything else just melts away around you and you have this amazing clarity, um, right in front of you.
And it's like, I, you know, we all. Consciously, unconsciously lust for that in our lives. And it's the reason why I love hospitality, love and loved hospitality so much. And doing service is, that was my flow state. Got it. Holy hell. Yeah. I turned into a different person.
On the peak of service, it's like everything else just falls away.
Exactly. Except for the complete presence in the moment. Yeah. It's a pretty epic way to achieve mindfulness for sure. Um, man, I love everything you just said. You know, the, the idea around. You know, reflection and, you know, perspective and these are, I mean, I could speak for 45 minutes about how scientifically and physiologically those things, uh, correlated with understanding identity and authenticity, but I'll, but I won't, I want to actually instead.
Challenge a component of your, um, process, if that's okay. So, I'm really with you as well. I think the goal setting method is a great foot in, great way to get a foot in the door. Yeah. But, one of the potential pitfalls of it, is, so, so what I, I like to do, right, is I want to do it really holistically. If I can understand the purpose piece, right, And if I can understand it clearly enough, where I can express it in a sentence that is comprised of, is to so that Sure, yeah, yeah.
This venue needs to exist or this purpose of this venue is to, so that if I can get it to that point, then when I do the goal setting, right, then when I do the, hey, if, if I'm clear on, that's why this exists in five years time with a blank check and the bluest sky, where does this land? Yeah, and then and then I'll work backwards from that.
I've got a clearer picture Or a picture with a bit more substance or depth or a bit more of the feels But say for instance, I don't do that first bit and I go into the goal setting bit. There's a real risk of um, Painting that picture a bit more materialistically or trivially or maybe even not that bad.
Maybe it's just too Practically. Yeah. Um What are your thoughts on that?
Well, I think a couple things number one is Yeah. As I said, 10 years ago, I sat down and did that goal setting and I did it every year subsequently, um, until I think two years ago. Okay. And you know, it'll always be, I'm never a, um, new year's resolution person.
I'm always like, do we just fucking start today? Jesus Christ. Have you,
have you ever done the, um, have you seen the pick a word for the year,
but that's, I, you know, doing that every year and getting. Yeah. Really good progress with it. And I, I'm going to butcher the Bill Gates quote around, you know, you always be disappointed what you can achieve in a year, but amazed what you can achieve in 10, right?
And I felt like I was quite unquote achieving quicker than I anticipated 10 years ago, um, in terms of how much I'd done. Um, in the last, you know, in the last eight years, it's been a lot like a good or bad. It was just like, there's been a lot in that, in that timeframe for me, um, family businesses, you know, obviously throw COVID in there as well, but everyone went through, but, um, a lot's happened in that time.
And two years ago I sat down for my usual late December, early January check in on those goals. And what I'd do is go through and just. Cross out, obviously the things I'd done and then carry over things I hadn't and then check that against the 10 year plan, right? And then yeah, reset and put more things in.
Yeah.
And I started doing it. I was like, this is kind of bullshit because you go back to the idea of fulfillment and I wasn't feeling fulfilled by doing it. Even though I was overachieving on what my 10 year plan looked like, I still wasn't happy.
Right. So. Your desire for achievement is actually a personality trait.
It's not an identity thing. Yeah, exactly.
And I essentially crossed it all out. And just, it sounds real fucking corny. I was like, just be happy. That's the plan.
Holy
shit. Just be happy. Okay,
that's super
deep. And yeah, and um, I certainly have had plenty of ups and downs since then. But I feel more comfy in thinking about what I want to do.
A goal looks like now because now it's like, well, I just need to be happy. And you talk about. Your process is like, well, if I don't go do that now and it's just goal orientated, it becomes materialistic. It's like, that's exactly how I was going to go. But now this sort of mindset shift of, well, I just, from a personal perspective, my goal is for me to be happy, which therefore means if I'm happy, um, I'm happy because my family's happy.
So they must be happy if I'm happy. Right. Yeah. So yeah, it's all. And then the people around me are happy, which means I'm happy. So it's like, Hey, everyone around me, around me is happy. Um, They're happy to have me in their lives. Yep. They're happy that I'm being fulfilled in what I'm doing. So what does that look like?
Right. So then every time it comes to a business decision now, and, um, obviously, uh, I made the decision to, um, separate from, um, some of my businesses and the venues and then stick with, um, stick with one, which is Grada now.
Mm.
Um, and, um, And I had that conversation with my business partner of like, what do we actually want to be
doing?
It's like, yes, we need to achieve all these things from a goal perspective, um, for the business and where we're going and what we're doing. And there's a really strong why behind the business and, and we feel really comfy in that. But then we're always like, well, what's also going to fulfill us individually, right?
Because we know that if we find ourselves in a position, um, and yes, as business owners, you just have to eat shit sometimes, get things done that you don't want to do. But when that's on repeat, it's like, this isn't fun. but it's also,
if you're just doing that without being compelled by something like a more meta kind of purpose or something, like, so, so what you're talking about, can we go back to the be happy for a quick second?
Cause what, what you've described there, um, there's a lot of research on this, believe it or not. And. What you're describing so so firstly I'll stick to the practical pace right? Yeah in terms of the process So you describe this this almost like this principle now this guiding principle that is effectively gonna anchor your decision making and therefore your goal setting and that gives you this built in protection from things becoming materialistic because The, the concept, unless you are just a specifically trivial person, um, and you're kind of in that existential vacuum, you're probably not going to be doing things on a authentically spiritual level.
So let's just assume that like that, that ideal around being happy is, um, almost like contradictory in a way to making the most optimistic, the most optimal commercial decisions. Sure. Yeah. I know it's not as simple as that. Yeah. It's way too general. Yeah. But if you take, if you, if you. If you, uh, accommodate that for a second, um, now you know that when you're setting those goals with the, with the guiding principle or using be happy as a compass, it's just going to stop you from making trivial, more financially prioritised decisions, right?
Yeah. I think the financially prioritised decision making, it's not all, it might be the right, um, decision to make today. Yeah. Or on paper. Generally, or on paper. You know, one month, two months, three months, a year later, you're like, fuck, why did we do that? That's damaged me, the team, the brand, the whatever else.
And I think if you have that happiness perspective for yourself, then you outwardly want that for other people as well. And then when you start making decisions that affect other people, then you start to make those decisions with the, the, the guys of, well, I want to make my team happy as well. I want to make my family happy.
I want to, all those sort of things. So even, yeah. Then that bleeds into just how you structure your, um, how I structure my week. And, um, yes, I travel a bit for work. I'm out a little bit, but it means I've completely shifted the way. Um, my other days look like and how I interact with the family.
You lift the score on productivity so massively when you start with that foundation of purpose and meaning.
Yeah. And what, what, what your, so when, when you talk about be happy and what I hear there is effectively like how I'd spit that back is that you take that principle and you're effectively using it to enrich the environments and the people around you. What you are actually describing there is the concept of self-transcendence.
Sure. So if you do go and read all the research, right? Sure. Yeah, yeah. The self-transcendence bit is the culmination of like all of that, you know, identity, authenticity, purpose, and, and it's uniquely human, right? Yeah. So like, you know, we are the only species that can detach and that can, um, transcend. And what it is, it just sort of says that.
So, so in simple terms, one of the things that a lot of people talk about in purpose is I say, Hey, if you can articulate a purpose that's clear, that's great. If it involves helping others, that's even better because, you know, it's super spiritual and philosophical, but all roads lead to altruism. So what you've got there is two words that give you a really solid foundation to then go into that self transcendent place and then make the right decisions to enrich the environments and people around you.
You know, the thing I'd encourage you to do. That's, uh, that's it. I think the second thing you could do is to give it a try of adopting my bit of the process where you take that be happy statement and turn it into an is to so that statement. Yeah, sure. Because it'd be interesting to know, is the be happy the is to or is it the so that?
Yeah.
And what do they look like and pick a sentence in each and test drive it for a week or two and see where you land.
Yeah, that's a good call. I think for me, it's trying to Um, yeah, throw a lot of stuff at the wall and see what sticks in this space. And I've thrown a shitload of stuff at the wall in this space over the last five, 10 years.
Right. Um, and when you, for me, uh, I'm a simple thinker, like I need to have clarity, right? I can't have a million things going through my mind in terms of my why or purpose or why that exists. So I think like even boiling for me personally, boiling it down to, I'm just going to try and be happy.
Right.
That's pretty simple, right?
Totally. Totally. It's very grounding. Yeah, exactly.
And talk about altruism and it's. . It's crazy. Like help helping other people.
Mm.
Is the most selfish thing you can do. Do, why
do you say that? I like, I, I I fight this statement a lot. No, I love it. Okay. It's so true.
It's like, and, um, because it's selfish inherently.
It's inherently selfish. Sure. But it it's a good type of selfish. Yeah. Like, but do you care? No. I don't care if it is or not, but I was like, the more you think about it and the more I do in that space, like, um. Um, you know, I have, uh, lucky enough that people approach me for me to mentor them in hospitality and, um, I'm really bad at saying no.
So I love it because I love doing it. Yeah. All right. I can't do it too much, but I'll put, I'll put your mobile number in the show notes. Um, but usually my default is yes. Yeah. And my default when someone, even it might not be mentorship, it might be. Someone wants to have a coffee and talk about what their plans are and just get my idea on it.
It's always yes, no matter who they are, where they're from, what they've done. First time hospital, long term hospital, it doesn't matter. Um, and, you know, it's a big reason, you know, I've worked with, um, SCARF for so long. I'm on the board of SCARF, um, and I've been on the board for two years, but I've worked with them for, uh, Seven plus years, um, through, um, because they worked out of Worksmith and, um, being able to see that impact and, and being part of that, um, in a small way has been incredible.
But yeah, man, you talk about helping people and altruism and like the, the entire purpose of Worksmith was that. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like, that was what was so compelling about it when you first put that business plan together. Yeah. Like, I was one of the, Uh, and then there's a lot of people that got to see it before you, you kind of did it.
Yeah. And it was, and there was a lot of people that are just like, well, I ain't get this. Like, what the fuck's going on? Yeah, totally.
And I think, um, we've literally only closed the space two months ago. Um, and a lot of people that I've told or seen in a close, I'm really sorry. I was like, well, number one, it was planned.
Yeah, it's by design. Yeah, it's by design. We did seven years there and we got to the point where, like from financially it was fine. It wasn't breaking even. and it was like. Um, business farm, we had our other businesses, um, but got to the point where that why started to fall away a bit, even though, um, at heart, it still was the right, um, thing for me personally.
I knew from a business perspective from an, our team is that we had this great thing in the dream side of what we were doing and, um, a great why behind that, but that actually overtook the why of the space. Sure. And it became a. Uh, uh, not a resourcing thing, but A bit of a competing factor It was competing why Yeah Right?
Yeah And they could, they did live next to each other for a while Um, but then it got to the point where we started making a lot of decisions based off a physical space Right We were trying to build a global brand Yeah, that's a
really interesting, I feel like we could do a whole podcast
it just came to the point where it's like Like the Y doesn't need to die, even if the thing dies.
And it's like, okay. The soul lives on. Yeah. The soul lives on. Right. And all the good that it's done. And I try and I've always been a person to shy away from like, Oh, look how amazing this thing is that I helped build. Right. Um, but to get in a comfy space with closing something like that, um, you have to stop Literally right up on a fucking board.
What are the 20, 30, 40 most proud things that happened because of WorkSmith, right? It's amazing reflections. Yeah. You know, we, we looked at the numbers and I think we had 350 members or something through the space. Um, we started Melbourne Cocktail Festival. We started Grata. We started Homegrown. Uh, we started Tip Jar.
We raised a bunch of money during COVID. We've supported Scarf, which I'm now on the board of. Um. The amazing people that started in that space in the test kitchen that have gone on to open their own venues. Yeah. Tarts and Nog. Yeah. Holy Sugar. Yeah. Like all these It's amazing, dude. Yeah, and to be like, look, they did all the work.
We just provided the space. Yeah. So it's really fucking simple when you think about it. Yeah, but
can I just segue and just The OCD in me just wants to just quickly jump back a couple of steps and tie up a loose end. So the idea around, like, if you think about all the people, right, that you have helped directly or indirectly, right, through mentor ship or through just offering advice or just through scarf and worksmith and all the rest of it, you, you, you can describe that as a selfish motivation because you get something out of it.
Yeah. But I mean, To me, it's like your motivation to do it wasn't what you got in return, right? It's just that's a byproduct, right? Yeah, so it's less about like, you know, there's no such thing as altruism because it's intrinsically selfish to me It's like altruism is intrinsically symbiotic.
Mm hmm
and the individual rewards that come from that symbiotic relationship Weren't established by an individual motivation to just do what's right by themselves.
Yeah. So I kind of always throw that argument out the window. Yeah,
sure. I mean, I've always been a proponent of, uh, the, the idea of, uh, rising tide lifts all boats. Yeah, totally. Like, it's a pretty simple, simple thing. And, unfortunately, there's a lot of people in our world, let alone industry, that, um, don't think like that.
Yep. And it's always us against them. Yes. It's a zero sum game. Yes. Like. It's kind of nauseating. You know where you
see the most, um, like inexplicable, indisputable evidence of that in business? South Melbourne market. Yeah. Yeah. You go there and you see there, it's, it's a family. Yeah, sure. No one is competing with, it's just like, man, every, you put all these business owners in a small confined space and they're all looking at it from this one perspective.
The more people we get to the market, the better it is for everyone. So if someone, you know, your direct competitor might run out of takeaway coffee cups, you hook him up. Yeah. You don't even stop for a second to go. No, no. It's like if that guy's business isn't running as well. Yeah. That's more people having a bad experience in the market.
Yeah.
Yeah. I love that. And. Unfortunately, I think we're seeing less of that. Yes, so true. And it all starts to become a little bit us versus them. And I've seen a lot in our industry, unfortunately, where someone's always looking for an adversary to go up against. And it's like, we're running restaurants.
Like, why are we fighting?
It's crazy. It's not always the hero's journey. Yeah, exactly. And I
think, um, Um, a big part of Bardleby's success in the early days was literally because we were able to integrate into a little community of venues around that space at the time, the teams that were in the venues around us at Black Pearl, Bad Frankie, Above Board, us, um, we would just literally send people around to each place.
Um, yeah, And there wasn't a night that someone didn't come in from one of those venues on recommendation. And it's just like, building that community. You could look at it and like, Oh, fuck them, another competitor. It's like, just fucking get along with them and support them. And they, you know, we were the newest out of those businesses to open.
And it was open arms,
right? Yep. Have you, have you, have you read, um, Co opetition? Yes. Adam Brandenburg? Yeah, yeah. I feel like that's a great example. Cool.
It's really an example. And I think, um, it's, I've read that 10 years ago, I don't know what book or how I learned it or where it came up, but I knew from a pretty early age, not early age, but early in my business career, I'll call it or professional career was the best way to excel in your industry was to help build the community.
Around it. Right. And when we started Worksmith and started doing what we were doing there for me, it was The idea is like the community's always been there. You just need to help facilitate it. Nice, right? That's so cool That's it. So true. And yes, Worksmith's a pretty unique example because it's literally for the hospitality to hang out and work in Test shit in come to events in like that's that's we try to create a we did create a hub around that but um When you talk about hospitality businesses You You might have the best sight you've ever seen in your life to walk into great deal.
You build it. But if you're not looking to the left and right of you and be like, who's around here for me to lean on and how can they lean on me and how can we build a community or how can we become part of that community? It's like a new tenant going to South Melbourne markets, probably like this is the best thing ever because everyone's amazing.
I want to, I want that site, which is better for the South Melbourne market as a whole and people go into it. But if you're going into a space where. The people around you are zero sum, and don't actually want you there, and they see you as a competitor, um, then it's not going to go very well.
It's not, it's never going to be, it's that whole thing about, um, There's only win win or lose lose.
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So true. Hey, so I, um, this was supposed to be practical and we just immediately launched into like 40 minutes of like quite philosophical, which I love. I'm here for it. Right. But I think, um, I'm just going to give up on my promise to Sash that I'd try and make this a short episode. Oh, we're 42 minutes in.
Nothing practical's come out of it yet. All right, well, let's try and like salvage the practical piece, right? So you said, you know, most important parts of everything in business. You need to know the why. Then it's the who you work with. Yes. And then it's the how you do it. So let's go into the other two.
Yeah, the who. Is this in order, by the way?
Uh, yeah, absolutely. Okay, cool, cool, cool. I mean, the, the how and who can. Come together. That can interchange. Yeah, that can interchange. Or, or be concurrently. Well, yep. Both. Yeah. Because you can, um, start with the, how I realized, holy shit, I've got so many gaps in my knowledge that I need some more who, who other than me, which I think a lot of people are scared of asking for help and scared of partnering with people because I think it might come from our parents generation and I hear a lot of people are careful who you partner with.
It's true. Right. Right. But it's also, it can be extremely positive as well. Um, totally. And I certainly couldn't do, uh, what I've done over the last sort of eight, 10 years without having business partners, number one. Sure. Um, and, uh, going through that process of working out who you wanna work with is extremely important.
And for me, the two differences, one was when I was 23, I guess. Um, and then the other was a few years later, but with someone I'd had already known for 15 years. Right. And the difference was huge, right? Yeah. Um, one was like hotheaded. Want to open a venue, just get me in there and I'll be raring to go. Yeah.
Um, and we did some great things, obviously, um, which have now come to an end, but, uh, and then the other one was with someone I'd gone to school with, uh, known for being a 10 plus years, we've known each other now for 20 years, basically, um, lived in each other's pockets for the last sort of five plus. Um, and you know, going through the why behind that is, is pretty easy.
It's like, you know, we have the relationship that literally call me, call each other any time of the day and we'll be there for each other. Right. Um, and to have someone like that as a friend is, is amazing, but then also as a business partner is easy. Did
becoming business partners change the friendship?
No, it strengthened it
because Strengthened it. Great way to put it. Yeah, Roscoe was a year ahead of me at school. Okay. So, he was always, you know, different year level. Um, finished school before me, obviously. Got it.
But were you guys mates in high school or you just knew each other in high school? Yeah, we were mates in high school.
Ah, cool.
We worked together as well in high school as well. Right. What did you connect
on in high school, just out of interest? What was the thing, because if you're one year apart, that's not a normal friendship? Yeah, sure. So what was the
Uh, one year apart, I think it was because we worked together, definitely.
Oh, okay, got it, got it. Where at? And we worked at a little bakery. Okay. Um, up in the hills in Emerald. Classic. And, uh, yeah, partied as teenagers, um, back then. Listening to Blink 182. Exactly. He and I went to Blink 182 a few months ago. Oh, that's so funny. It was an absolute dream come true. Boyhood. Yeah.
Dream together to go, um, literally that honestly, um, uh, we both admire each other's work ethic and we both had the glint in our, you know, glint in our eyes that we'd have a crack at doing something in our lives. Um, and, uh, both knew that we'd get out of where we were living up in the hills, which we'd love going back.
Um, he lives still on the edge of, but, um, yeah, yeah. Um, we both knew we wanted to travel. We both knew we want to have a crack at something, although I went into hospitality, he went to property. Um, and then we've sort of gone full circle and come back. But it was, I think for me, the inherent understanding that someone's got your back is probably the most important thing when you're trying to
choose who to work with.
How do you, how do you ensure that though, if you don't have the luxury of like a 20 year relationship?
Yeah, I think. I would never recommend someone going in blind to a business partnership if you haven't worked with them before. I think that's probably the biggest one. It's a big one, isn't it? Um, and for me, uh, with a few people I'm working with now and, and helping get into their own venues, I'm only doing that A, because I want to help them, they're great people, but also B, I've worked with them closely.
Got it. Right? And I've seen them work closely together as well. Mm hmm. Yeah. Thank you. for a long time. And without that vetting, it's just too, it's no man's land. Cause you don't know. It all might seem, it's like the idea when you hire someone and it's like, everyone fucking looks good in an interview and everyone's going to put the best foot forward for the first month.
But when the shit hits the fan and everyone's stressed, how do they act? Are they throwing plates across the kitchen or are they like the calm in the Yeah,
totally.
Um, And I think, and I, essentially that's, you know, I can be pretty off the cuff and a bit of a rager sometimes when I'm unhappy with something, but in like, I'll call it a passionate Italian way.
But in service, I was always that person that could, step back and try and work it out, right? Um, without getting angry. And I want to see, I want to work with people like that. Um, that are able to reflect. So I think that, that how, sorry, the who you work with, um, it's like you would never. Pick a footy team without watching the players play, right?
I mean Essendon probably done that for the last one. Um, Um, and it's so true in, in what we do and in any business really, like you want to see how that person performs. Um, yeah, 100%. And performance is one thing, but then um, who they are is another as well.
What if you don't have the ability, like let's just say for instance, right, you've got the opportunity to um, Get an absolute peach of a deal, right?
It's with someone that you haven't worked with. And you've got six weeks to, to say yes or no. Would you, is that a deal breaker straight up? It doesn't matter how good the deal is. If we haven't worked together, I'm not, I'm not at the table. Or is there a workaround to that?
It's risk versus reward. If you can sit there and go, I am financially struggling.
Yeah. I am. Uh, I've just left my job, I want to do something for myself, this person's given me an amazing deal. You know, I get why people take that deal. Totally. I'm not going to sit here and be like, well, you know, you
might regret that. It's like,
yeah, you might, but you might not as well. And you're in a position now where you might regret it.
It might be just you, but it also might be a family, you might have kids, you might have financial obligations. And I think in our industry, we have a lot of people that are kind of naysayers in the commercial space. Um, they want to be the artist and, you know, open the cool spot that, you know, makes no money and whatever.
It's so cool that I'm really living my purpose out here. It's like, that's awesome. Good for you. Yeah. There's other people that have a lot more, uh, financial, you know, potential. You know, issues, or they need, um, they need money to live, right? Yeah, yeah. And, um, You know, early days of BioLiberty, I was that person that was just like couldn't give a shit about the bottom line.
Right.
You know, I'll run a sustainable business as much as I can. Of course. And I wanted to make money. Yeah. But I want to make the best thing possible. Yeah, totally. Totally. And I'll work the other shit out later. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. The priority was that.
Exactly. And I get why people are like that. But when it comes, um, around, around the next time and you're like, well, I've got a family now.
I need to make. The financial decision as well. I understand why people make that, um, you know, to give a real world example. And I'm happy to fucking throw numbers out there. I don't care. But when I came out, you know, announced that I was coming out of my businesses, I was offered a lot of money to go to start a new restaurant group.
Yeah. Right. Okay.
A lot of money, more money than I could ever, you know, five years, 10 years before someone said, Oh, and that this amount of time someone's going to offer you.
Um, I'd be like, you know, I don't have the financial acumen to do that anyway, but, uh, yeah, I'd be like, you're dreaming. When that sort of stuff happens, you're like, first of all, it's gratifying. It's like, Oh, someone thinks I can do my job, right. That's pretty good. Yeah. It's validating. Exactly. But it comes back to the, the why thing.
It's like, I was doing it. I was, I never kind of considered taking it because I obviously had Worksmith and now Grado and what we're doing in that space. I was never going to run off and start a restaurant group because of that. Um, so that's, that's one thing. But even if I didn't have that, it was for the wrong reasons.
Right. It's like, oh, here's a bunch of money to go just start dreaming up places. Was it also the wrong people? Well, this is the thing. It's like the people were, um, it's kind of the dream scenario to be honest, where they're like, here's the money. I'm silent. Go do it.
Right.
Right. That's not the dream scenario for
me.
Yeah, totally. And I've
realized that pretty quickly because I need to be around people that are in
the
shit with me.
It comes back to your idea of like community. Community isn't just something you build outside the business, right? It's within, yeah. And
I need to have people alongside me that I trust and love and that I can see excel as well alongside me.
If I was just doing it by myself, I think I'd really, really struggle. Yep. And you talk about like, oh, it's a blank check, go do it. Mm. It doesn't excite me at all. Yeah, fair. End. Being okay. You talk about the financial piece. It's like, you know, financially probably should have taken that deal, right? But I knew that within myself that it would probably be a short amount of time Where I'd be like, I'm regretting this because I'm not enjoying my day today.
I'm not being fulfilled. Yes I could have brought in people around me to help run the venues and be great managers and that sort of thing But yeah, my my goal now is to You work alongside people that are in it with me rather than just me being the number one.
Well, but you stated it so clearly before, right?
It's about be happy. Yeah. You know, and if that, if that is the decision is that if that's the decision making framework, then it could have been three mil, it could have been four mil, it could have been 10 mil. Yeah. It's not going to stack up according to that return factor. No, absolutely not. And
I think, Thinking through it the last sort of few months.
I know that restaurants will be on my horizon one day. And they'll look very different to what they would if I was to open more, you know, immediately. Um, but. I know that I'm extremely happy in what I'm doing now, day to day. Mm-Hmm. And with, more importantly with the people I'm doing it with. Yep. And I've got an incredible business partner.
Um, I've got, you know, we've got an amazing team around us Mm-Hmm. Um, that we've built over the last few years that are sort of mainstays of the business now, which is incredible.
Yeah.
Um, so to kind of look to the left or right of me right now, it's like, well. I know I've got the right team and then to look, um, at the board that we've got as well and our investors Dream like honestly absolute dream people to have around us.
Um, so for me Uh, i'm extremely proud of what we've built and the people we've chosen to work with Um, and you talk about luck and this sort of thing. I believe in luck to a point But I also believe in putting in the work to get, to get the, to be lucky. What was that um, The quote of like the harder I work, the luckier I get.
Yeah, Ted Lasso. Is that Ted Lasso?
Oh, I think he said it, but probably someone else said it. Yeah, so I think someone else said it. But it's so true,
fuck. Yeah. You know, apart from randomly winning the lottery, it's like, you gotta work pretty hard to be lucky. And, um, yeah, I think that's starting to, starting to really show just because of those early decisions of who we Yeah.
Okay.
So, so coming back to that then, like, you know, the who, right? Like, so the first criteria is you got to know them effectively and, and whether, and if you don't know them and you don't, and you haven't known him for 20 years, either work together in some capacity. You know, um, someone told me once that like before you marry someone, you should travel with them.
It's very true. Well, this
is a funny thing. So Vicky and I aren't married. I've been longterm engaged, but. She is a, has traveled way more than me. I've always been very jealous of that. And it's always like, things break down when you're traveling because people don't know how to get around when you're traveling.
Vicky's the opposite. Right. Vicky is an absolute gun. Yeah, got it. When you're overseas. Yeah. in Melbourne. She's lived 10 years. Couldn't get around the corner with the doesn't know. Yeah. She doesn't take notice, but overseas I don't even do any prep going to a new city. Yeah. Cause she just knows you just rely on that.
But to that point it's like traveling with her. It was like, yeah, okay. I get this. It makes sense. And it's so true with business partners. It's not a bad call. Maybe she'd go away together. Yeah. Um, I think it's like, yeah, either, either need to know them or. Trust someone. This is the iffy bit. Trust someone who has worked very closely with them.
Got it. And known the relationship over time. So like I'm endorsed. I don't think you should, if it's an endorsement where you haven't seen that relationship ever, and they go, oh, this guy's really great. You should work with him or her. But if you've sort of, Viewed that relationship sort of go along and then that person says, oh, this person loved to work with you.
Yeah. Yeah. I can vibe with that a little bit. Sure. Okay. And then you can kind of do due diligence from there.
Okay. So, so you, you either, so you need to, you need to know them or know someone who can vouch for them deeply. Deeply. Yeah. Um, if you can do a little bit of stress testing, that would be great.
Like go on a trip together or you can, you can actually engineer. I mean, so, you know, we operate in a certain, um, echelon of business that is just a speck in the, in the landscape of it, right? Like, so, you look at like corporate structures and other, and they, they've got systems for this shit, right? Yeah, of course.
And it's like, you can very easily facilitate team dynamic sessions and, you know, organizational development sessions and social roles and you can do all that stuff. Um, and the best thing you can
do in rest in restaurant world is go to a pop up.
Yeah,
I was just going there. Go do heaps of pop ups.
Exactly. Do a couple. You can do 3 4 pop ups and you know really quickly. They're the best scenario because you haven't, you're not in your own venue. You have to work with multiple stakeholders. Um, you have to try and sell it out with no marketing base. There's going to be curveballs. You're
going to get to know people at this.
You know there's a great quote that I read once that talked about how it's easy to Love someone at their best, but true love is when you can love someone at their worst. Yeah, it's hectic, right? 100%. Yeah, and you know what's funny? I got really lucky. He's um, Allie and I, the first time we traveled overseas together was on our honeymoon, but it was sweet.
Oh, thank God. Yeah. It's a good go either way. I remember getting on the plane and then remembering that, that, going, oh shit, didn't tick that box. Thankfully it was like the best thing ever. Yeah. Um, but yeah. Okay. So, so that's some good groundwork. Can I throw something else at you? That's a little bit more unromantic, um, and it's some of the more, Like the less sexy points about, you know, how you should pick the who, like effectively a really good shareholders agreement is going to protect you a lot.
Right. And that's, and those things are fucking dry and really hard. But can I actually put it out there when it comes to, if you don't know someone, the process of developing a shareholder's agreement is a pretty good stress test.
Well, I was having a meeting with a lawyer the other day, literally talking about shareholders agreements and, um, talking to them about it.
I was very open about my position and, and where I wanted to be sort of sitting in that shareholder's agreement. Right. Right. And, um, you having that discussion with them and then with, um, the, the, the other shareholders, you have a pretty quick understanding of where they want to stand if, you know, these imaginary things might happen.
Sure. Sure.
What, what happens if you need to move back home and you want to sell? Yep. Yep. Do I get stuck with this business? Yeah. Or can we sell to get, like if I wanna sell, how do the decisions get made? Yeah. If I wanna sell my shares. Um, do I need to give them you first, right? Yeah. All these like little things.
Even these like, you're right, they're little things, but they're big. They're big when they happen. Yeah, because you want to make a decision on how it's going to go before there's any value attributed to the business. Yeah. Because when the business is worth nothing, you can be really neutral and objective about how it's going to make.
But after you've actually invested some, in fact, it's not even just investing money and time. It's the. Emotional investment.
Yeah, that's honestly going through, uh, an exit as I have. It's 90 percent emotion, right? And then the financial bit links in with the emotion. Because if emotionally you can be okay with it, then, you know, if you're paid half the amount, you probably should be, then you're going to be all right with it.
Yeah. Because emotionally you can, you resolve that. Yeah, exactly. Whereas if you're not emotionally resolved, a dollar. Exactly, exactly right, because it's about the principle. Exactly, I've seen a lot of people go through that.
Oh mate, same, because most people don't do the work of the shareholder agreement.
Like my philosophy is that you either Like, a lot of people sort of, sorry, they do do the work of a shareholder's agreement, but they get their mate who can do it for 400 bucks.
Yeah.
And they end up with a piece of paper that's worth jack shit.
Yeah.
And it's like, if you're gonna do it, you gotta do it.
You know, you gotta spend the thousands, and you gotta put the time in, and you gotta get that document to be perfect. Yeah. The only other solution is to do nothing. Yeah. Alright, just go completely handshake. And then if shit hits the fan, you do the Texas shootout. Yeah, sure. Which is another, um, co op petition reference.
Amazing. Never thought I'd ever reference that book twice in one morning. Twice in one morning. It's so good.
Um, yeah, it's an interesting thing. I think getting the shareholders agreement, um, down pat early just gives everyone the right security. And I'm swearing to people like, oh yeah, don't worry about it.
It's fine. We know, we trust it. Just like, yeah, until you don't. Yeah,
yep,
fully. Um, just having protections and knowing that, um, you know, even. Uh, how something might be structured where you can't just be kicked out, right? And I'll buy you out for whatever I feel like, right? Like, um, I think a lot of people think that if you've got majority in the business, then you can just kind of free will.
And it's like, it's not the case.
No one would set up, no one would responsibly set up a shareholders agreement that way. To allow that, yeah,
exactly. So just, and I think there's one thing, you know, setting it up, Quote unquote properly, but also understanding what your rights are
and
because when the shit hits the fan Which it can is being totally comfortable with it I think the thing about I thought we talked about this a lot in what we do in partnerships But whether it's a partnership agreement or a shareholders agreement, I sort of say partnership.
We could be just like a project you're working on with someone and you write down a partnership agreement. It's like, if you ever have to refer to that agreement, you're fucked. Yeah, exactly. Things aren't going well.
Exactly.
Um, it's really rare. You, you're going to go refer to that agreement and then, um, come out of it happy.
Right? Yeah. Someone's unhappy if you're going back there.
Um,
my, uh, business partner, Orozco says often it's like if the best partnerships are the ones where Both parties feel like they're getting more out of the other party. Yeah. And it's so true. Cause it's like, fuck. And I have a few of those where I'm like, I feel like I'm not giving enough to this.
And then they go like, fuck, I feel like I'm not giving enough to this. And it's like, you get in this really sweet spot where you're constantly trying to. Um, better the partnership and better the relationship and do more for the other person. And if you're in that mindset with a partner or a business partner, then you're already halfway there because it means you're going into battle for the other person more often than not.
More community. You know,
um, I'm working with someone at the moment who's been this unbelievable like mentor, you know, in my life, business wise, in fact more than that, but there's something that he always says is, um, everybody has to feel like they're winning. You know, and when it comes to those hard discussions, you, if you can identify, like you might get there, but if you can identify that the other person hasn't got there, you got to keep talking.
You got to keep planning. And only when you get to that outcome where everybody feels like that, you've achieved the right outcome.
Yeah.
I've
been super guilty of this. The last few years in particular where I feel like I get to the destination really quickly And they get really angry when other people don't yeah I've resolved it in my head in about eight seconds.
Oh my god It's like come on, like i'm okay with this why aren't you? Yeah, and then walking away from like, oh that's resolved and then a week later you go. Oh fuck. No, it's not no one
got it Exactly. So like going back
and i'm feeling
very seen right now. Yeah
Yeah going back i'm gonna go through this again and again and again.
It's not about um, You I don't want to come across like that's an intelligence thing at all. That's experience. You're right. Um, and also being able to put things aside really quickly and understanding what's best for the people and for the business. And sometimes people latch on to things that are so incredibly important to them.
Yeah. Whereas I sometimes will go, Oh, that's not important, just a bit of a throwaway and move on.
Well, you, you, you, I think you strike me as the sort of person that can. Either process or detach the emotion quite quickly. Yes. And a lot quicker than others. Yeah. Um, which is, you know, you got to do that at your own peril, don't you?
Yeah. A hundred percent. I'm always, um, the type of operator or person in life generally is like progress over perfection.
Right. Always. Yeah. Type three enneagram. Yeah. I'd prefer
to, to try a hundred things and get 99 of them wrong to get the fucking golden. Yeah. Totally. That'd be like. Let's not make a decision or not do something because it's not quite perfect yet.
It's like, fuck that. Like you can't learn anything by doing that. Yeah. Or it takes a lot longer to learn. Um, and that could be anything from a tiny project to opening a venue to like, sure. I want to move on and test the waters with. Whether it's, um, you know, usually customers or guests, um, in a venue or with a new product is getting in as many hands as possible, getting feedback rather than being like, Oh, I'm going to hold this back because I want it to be perfect.
Yeah,
for
me, that doesn't
gel well. Doesn't work. Yeah. It's just not realistic. Hey, I, um, I feel like a lot of people that are listening to this, it might be too late. To do the shareholders agreement, they might be in the business already. So, but I feel like we've given them, like, I think maybe we should talk them through the Texas shootout.
Cause that's a, that's a really, it's a good one. It's a good tactic to have up your sleeve. Right. It's very good. Um, do you, do you want to explain it or do you want me to explain it? Okay. So, um, so basically the Texas shootout, so say for instance, you and I have gone into business. And we didn't do any of the right due diligence, and we realised, you know, we opened this great venue.
Um, cause no doubt we would. And say for instance, after we've done it, a year in, it's like, alright, you know what, we just, we can't get along. Like, Essendon keeps beating Carlton every time they play um, and you just can't cope with it. We're gonna have to, we're gonna have to part ways, but we haven't agreed on how we're gonna do that.
So all we know is that we need to get out. How do we do that in the most fair way? Okay, we're trying to negotiate who did what and who owns what and who put in what that's just a dessert. We'll never get there, right? It'll never happen. Um, so the Texas shootout principle will say one of us will make the other an offer.
Um, and if that person refuses that offer, they've got to purchase the business for that price. Yep. So that, what that does is, so that would, that would be me say, say for instance, I say to you, I'm going to make the offer and you know, I think the business is worth a mil, but I want to like lowball you. So I'll be like, you know what?
I'm just going to, mate, it's not worth a mil, mate. You're dreaming, right? I'm going to offer you 750. If you go, well, no, it's not worth that. Then. You've got to pay for, you, you, you effectively, that's what I'm going to get for the business. Exactly. So I'm not going to lowball you. No. Right. So it keeps both of us super honest.
You
find a meeting point. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it makes you, Get you into that position, um, headspace where you want both people to win. Totally. Because if both people are you in that scenario. Yeah, exactly.
And you know that it's like, hey, if I, if I lowball the offer, then that's what I'm going to get for it.
Exactly. So I've got to do the due diligence before I put that offer in. Yeah. And both people end up having to do the due diligence that they otherwise would have had to do in the first instance if the shareholders agree. So, um, we might have just lost a lot of law firms a lot of money. Yeah. With that tactic.
They can afford it, trust me. Yeah, totally. Um, okay, so, um, let's go to the how. Yep. Okay, um, can we do A million, a million hows. A million hows. Yeah. Um, do a quick pause? Yeah. Alright, cool. They'll, they'll edit in, uh, let me just make a note of 107. I just need to run this over real quick. Uh, are you good? Do you need to go?
To, to the toilet or anything?
I'm good.
Give me two seconds. No
worries.
Sorry
about I just also wanted to put a little pause in there, because, um, I'm guessing they're gonna make this a two parter. So this will probably be the spot where they break
it up.
Cool. Alright, you good? Yeah, sorry. Ah, yeah.
Sick. Alright, so, so, the how. How. Yeah, so, just again, unfair question, break it down for me. Break it down.
Uh, the how is specific to, um, okay, I've got my, um, I've got my why, I've got my business partners, I've decided I'm going to be crazy and do it by myself. Um, and essentially breaking it down into the areas of the project, right?
So obviously there's the food component, there's the Bev component, there's the build, right? And then what I'll call generally marketing and PR. There's a lot that falls into that, but I'll just call it marketing and PR. Um,
and then the
team.
I'll The team. Okay, so, hey, so can, can I put food and and drink or beverage as you put, can I put that into one category of product or is that too Yeah, you can.
Too risky. Yeah,
you can call it product.
Okay. So there's the product, there's the build, there's the team. Yeah, and there's the marketing. Marketing pr. Marketing pr.
Yeah. Okay. I think if you just start with those buckets. Yeah. Those are great buckets. Yeah. Work out who's going to. That's why I was probably hesitant saying product is one is because you need to decide who's leading each bucket.
And very rare that one person leads both. Sure, sure, sure, sure.
Okay. So then keep them separate then. Yeah. So food, Bev, where does service fit? Service comes after you're open.
Okay.
And that's in team. That's in team. Yeah. Okay. Got it, got it, got it.
Um, so for me, it's, yeah, breaking it down like that. Okay.
Deciding who's going to be the project manager of the whole thing. Okay. So top line.
Got to be one person, one person driving the car.
Doesn't, and people be like, yeah, but, uh, that person's a chef and I'm a bad person. Why am I reporting that? So it doesn't matter. It's about project manager. Project management has nothing to do with, um, getting involved in the decision making of what.
No, it's,
it's, you're pretty much a whip. You just like, yeah, just
like he's, he's the Gantt chart.
Yep.
All right. Here's the list of shit we need to do. Are we on track? Yeah. Right. When we're in a meeting, here's the agenda.
And the person wearing that hat is, it doesn't matter what their job title is. They're just, they're there to make sure that.
The things we said we need to do got done on time.
Exactly.
And if they didn't, we know why and how to fix it. And, you know, identifying that. Yeah. How do you, what do you use for a Gantt chart? Have you got a platform that is your go to? Uh, InstaGantt is very good. Get out of here. InstaGantt. Is it better than Trello?
Fuck Trello is pedestrian. Get
out of here, man. Trello is the best. First of
all, Asana is better than Trello by a mile. All right. But
you need to, it's like saying like, um, a Ferrari is better than a Prius. Like of course it is.
Exactly.
But you're never gonna use all the power of a Ferrari on the street.
It's completely inefficient. No, you're not. Okay, so if you don't know how to code, you don't need to be using Asana. Alright, straight up. I don't know how
to code. Yeah, so what the fuck? Trello's great. Nah.
Alright, alright, come on, talk me through yours. I mentioned Asana
because InstaGantt plugs into Asana.
Okay, okay, okay, there's a plug in. So you've
got Gantt chart and task management.
Oh, and one. Okay, got it. Uh, how, how much do they cost? Expensive. Yeah, see, Trello's
free, bro.
Um,
Trello is free. For a reason. But I think you could go full, um, like, the bear. Um, which I'm sure most people in the industry have watched.
And it's just come out again yesterday. I'm one episode in and loving it. Oh really? Do you love that show? Love the show. I hate that show. You know why I love it? Why? Cause it's the closest representation, apart from like the crazy dramatisation of some things in the family. Okay, yeah. To be honest, it does happen to people.
Yep. But the actual restaurant operations and references to True. They nail it. They nail it. Yeah. Whereas no other show or movie has nailed it.
No, that is very true. No one's nailed it like that. The bit that I don't like though is that it kind of glorifies the toxicity.
Yeah, it does. But as it dives in, the first episode of season three is like basically a montage of his experience.
And it shows how fucked it is as well. Just so stress and trauma inducing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so It does drama, it does glorify it a little bit, but you also realise this is pretty fucked
up. Yeah, it shouldn't be done, yeah, sure, sure.
Yeah, I say, I reference that because when they're building the restaurant, they literally do the big calendar on the wall.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I actually like that as well, even though I'm like, I'm kinda tech driven in how I manage things now. Yep, yep. Um, I do like the pen and paper as well. In those settings, you're building a restaurant. Yeah, yeah. Like, right on the wall. Yep, totally. And you can literally, together, have a fucking What Tradies would call a toolbox meeting at the start of the day, and stand there and go, Alright, this is how long we've got.
What's today? What's this week? What's next month? Man, planning out
stuff with post it notes and a wall is actually the best way to do it. Yeah, you can visualise digitise it later. Yeah, exactly. Um, so I think, can I just quickly say though, where I think a lot of people get stuck
Yeah.
Is they do the post it notes on the wall?
Yeah, and then they think that's it. That's it Yeah, it's like no, no, no, no, no No, you got to take all that and you've got to timeline it and put due dates and allocate resources and build a Gantt chart Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, but the resourcing I think is the most important thing on that Um, but yeah going back to like who leads what having an overall project manager is really important And that could just be one of the owners.
It could be your first employee. It could be you Yeah, anyone. It could be. Have
you ever outsourced that? Like making a complete neutral interview? Yeah. How'd it go?
Pretty well and only in the instance because I wasn't working in the business. Right. So a new venue So getting essentially a project manager who's actually the builder.
Sure.
They're not gonna help you with the marketing page. No, totally. They're just managing the whole site. Yeah. Yeah, and it's very Uh, it can be costly, obviously, but if you're not in a position to be there every day, you need someone to do that.
It's the same thing. Someone has to be driving
the car.
Exactly. But if it's your first business, you know, lo and behold, like, you're going to be there every day. Yeah, for sure. Um, and be the point. So, yeah, one of the business partners is probably preferable. Yep. As that sort of go to person, um, for top line project management. And then choosing who is going to lead each category, essentially.
Right. So, who's your head chef? Yep. Who's running beverage? Is it just the venue manager that's also going to do Bev, or is it a big enough venue or is it dedicated enough to be like a Bev manager or a bar manager even? Um, and then there's obviously some categories within Bev, right? Like, okay, who's going to write Bev?
The cocktail list.
Got it. Who's gonna write the wine list? Got it, got it. All that stuff. Yeah. Um, but, but all of those people in that team are still gotta be answerable to one person. Totally. Yeah. Yeah.
They're still need be run at, at, at a top level. Yeah. Um, then you've got the build. Yeah. Obviously crucial.
Yeah. Not open without it. Yeah. Um, and that's. You would obviously put
like graphic design and stuff in the build or is that in the marketing bit? I put it
it's marketing PR brand would all sort of be in one so there's
kind of overlap in those two Of course. Yeah, and that's why
you need a top line project manager to help bring it all together, right?
Sure because if You know, I see a lot of time it's like, oh we can't launch the instagram. It's got no branding yet You should have done the branding. Yeah A lot of people think the branding you don't need till day one. Yeah, but what happens inevitably is you need Your website built which needs guess what branding and your color selection?
Yeah, you need social media which needs branding and a fucking name. Totally. Um, you need probably a menu You need coasters Like some collateral and some assets exactly all these things start to snowball and then suddenly you realize the branding's one of the first Things you do. Yeah, because it actually Um, speeds up everything else because if you go into the build and, um, already have your branding pretty much done, then suddenly when you need signage, you've already got the, the asset.
Well, not just that, but also what's the first thing that you cover in branding identity, identity, right? Like, why does this business exist? Exactly. What's its purpose? It's, it's spun in a different way there. Cause it's like you, you take that content for the purpose of, um, I guess promotion and copywriting.
And how do you get. The public to get it, but you also need to take that same content and, and sort of like spin it or create a version of it where it's internal for how do you make sure the staff get it and yeah.
Well, I think, um, we talked about shareholders agreement before, like really helps. Um, choosing the right people and understanding your why as well.
It's kind of like if you do shareholder's agreement, very, very quickly the branding comes with that. Um, because it's a similar sort of thing, very different outputs, similar mindset in terms of like, Why are we doing this? What do I need out of it? All this sort of stuff. And conceptually it needs to flow through to, um, your branding.
And as you say, that why comes really strongly into it. Um, and once that's done, you've suddenly got the ammunition to be able to do You know, your builder says, okay, we need the sign artwork, and you're like, oh my god, I haven't even finished the logo. That's gonna be three weeks easily, and then another, usually another three weeks to get the sign writer to do it.
Yeah. And that's six weeks gone. Fuck. Shit. So, it's like, in venues, things snowball really quickly. It
almost gets to the point where you have to, um, You have to settle for signage that is basically just spray painting the name of the restaurant over the existing sign or something like that. Good reference.
Very good reference. For your
information, we had a sign design. We just didn't print it because we had no money. And then it became somewhat iconic that we wanted to change and everyone was like, you can't change it. It's been written about in every article. Totally. People reference it like, oh, fuck. It's iconic.
I've seen the last few years, other people doing the same thing and referencing the video. Classic. That's pretty cool. That's pretty cool. But, um, yeah, I think, yeah, that branding piece is extremely important, because it just bleeds into absolutely everything. Yeah, totally. And then, as you said, like, understanding the ethos behind the venue, the why, then bleeds into, okay, we need to do a PR release.
Mm
hmm. So easy to write a PR release when you know the why behind it. Right. Yeah. Um, And, yeah, then that flows into how you market the venue and then, and then, and then, and then, right? So, you know, things like the shareholders agreement, the brand document are probably, um, and obviously the why. It's crucially important to making sure the actual rollout of the venue goes well.
Yep, for sure. If you don't do some, some of that upfront work in, in those sort of three main areas, it just, every decision that comes across the table that you think is so small becomes a big blown out thing when it shouldn't be.
So can I sequence this out a bit? First step, figure out the why of the concept.
Second step, figure out who you're going to do it with. Third, jump into the how, but know that one of the first things that you need, the first cab off the rank in terms of the how is the brand.
Mm
hmm. Figure out the branding before you've even engaged to build it, before you've done anything. Yeah. Just do that.
Do you need to, you almost would do that before you put the, the, you, oh no, well you've already, you've already worked out the who. So the team's all good and those stakeholders and the gatekeepers of food and beverage and whatnot, they're already elected.
Yeah, mostly, like team is part of the how as well.
Sure, sure. Because inevitably a lot, you know, 95 percent of your team aren't owners. Right. Um, a lot of the time. Yeah. So. Um, team's crucially important in that build out phase because Um, while you're putting the how together, you obviously know really quickly what gaps you need to fill. So, um, if you're lucky enough that two of the owners, uh, are heading up the two main things in a venue, food and beverage, or front of house, generally, then you've got two really strong things covered.
But then you're like, okay, in that instance, we need, we both need two ICs. Really quickly because they're gonna be the doers and sure and work alongside us and they're gonna be the point person when we're not there Right.
Yeah,
and then build out the rest of your team from there And also the timing of when you bring those people in like a lot of people obviously don't want to spend the money Which is totally fine.
I get it It's really difficult for first business But your to I see is so crucial and if you can get them in even a week early than you think Think you need them or two weeks or three weeks. If you feel lucky and you can afford it, you can do a month. The pressure they take off is incredible. It's a small price to pay in the grand scheme of things.
Exactly. And the, the result you get, um, from an output of yourself is incredible. Um, but then also the potential success of the venue, I think goes through the roof.
Yeah. I said, can I throw a red herring at you? Something I think that often comes up for people. that prevents them from doing all this stuff in the right order.
Let's call it the mise en place. Yeah. All right. They're doing it in the wrong time or in the wrong quantities.
Yeah.
The thing that often makes that happen is all of a sudden, because, because where I was, what I was going to ask you about is where to site selection. Sure. But sometimes someone just like gets a site.
Yeah. We're going to
say like the classic question is, um, do you come up with the concept first or the site? Exactly. I, I'm very. I always have a few types of venues I want to open, in the back of my mind, that I'd love to be a part of, or
That you're just waiting to find the right site. Exactly, so when a
site comes up, you're like, that thing.
Is that what happened with Liberty? Um Like that was in your head? No,
that, well, yeah, that's a really good point. That was a site first. Okay. And we actually spoke about doing a pizza restaurant there first. No way. Yeah, which inevitably became Campitano, the next site. Um But then that was a personnel thing as to why I don't get wine lading because we got banjo on board.
It's like, well, we're open to wine folks. Sure. Yeah. Um, so that makes sense. And I think for me, I always like the idea of being able to flex both ways. It's like, but I actually have found it's harder with, through experience that if you've, it's like, okay, I need to open X venue, whatever, much harder to find the right site.
Yes. Whereas if you. You're gifted a site. Um, just by way of coincidence or someone knocks on your door and talks to you about it or you walk past it and you're like, Oh, that's nice. Yeah. Or, you know, the classic, um, uh, you know, I've always loved that venue one day, if that becomes available, which has happened multiple times with me, um, is that you need to jump on it and you make it happen.
Um, but yeah, I've, I've always got in the back of my mind, a few things. And then aside from that, a few people as well. That's like, Oh, if The right site came, site came up, then, um, I've got this conceptually this idea of a venue that would be perfect for this person.
Right. To do it. Right, right, right. Right?
So,
and I've been involved in things where I've found a site and actually handled it, had nothing to do with the business. I mean, like, you should go look at that site. Classic. Because you could open a great whatever.
Yeah, sure. And just because you know that it's the, yeah, that's, that's pretty sick. I mean, I, I, I guess you can go either way though, you know, like I think if you, if you're working on the why the whole time, but you have no idea where you're going to do it and you've got all this time to figure all this stuff out.
Great. But then all of a sudden someone just comes along and goes, man, check out the rent on this joint and you do the due diligence and it all just stacks up. Yeah. You can then almost not reverse engineering. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say fast track, but that's the wrong term for it. Cause it doesn't, that implies you rush it.
It's really interesting. Cause Yeah. My operational brain goes straight to the reverse engineering of that idea is, uh, yeah, here's a site. It's great. Rent.
Mm.
Reverse engineer to the point of just financially and go, it's this much rent. Yes. Okay. I know rent needs to be less than X percent.
Yep.
Okay. It needs to make two and a half million dollars.
Right. It's this, whatever the size is as well. It suddenly starts self selecting. Yeah, exactly. It's like, uh, it needs maintenance. Two and a half million and it's only 60 seats. Yeah. . It's like, I'm not opening a cafe. Yeah, exactly. Like it's gonna be really hard to make that money out of a cafe.
Yeah. Or Exactly.
'cause even outside of the seats, it's even, um, foot traffic. Yeah. What's a foot traffic? All those factors. And it starts, it
actually starts self selecting what you should do there. Right. Right. Um, and then suddenly you find yourself in a place like, okay, it needs to be a 60 cent. 60 seat middle rung restaurant at this headspin, this turnover to hit the two and a half to make it viable.
So suddenly you've, you've brought it right down to, okay, it's definitely a restaurant. It's mid level. Okay. Now I've got to work out what type of restaurant it is.
So, you know, it's funny though, that is still incredibly purpose led. It's just purpose based on functionality rather than philosophically. Yes.
Absolutely. Which is, which is, fuck, you could argue equally if not more, you know, and so, so I think we've, I
think we've all seen venues open in spaces they shouldn't. Okay. And you're like, why the fuck is this so big? Yeah. And it's a cocktail bar with no food. Yeah. And we're in Melbourne and half the capacity is outside.
Oh man. And you're like, you know, the rent's 150 grand. Nightmare. Good fucking luck.
Yeah. Nightmare. But, I mean, so, so, but there's a lot of people that, uh, in that category, maybe not to that extreme, but there could be a lot of people listening to this going, Fuck, I signed a lease, I didn't even think about whether it's 5 percent of my turnover or not.
So, if we were to say to anyone who's in that position, Don't lose hope. Because you can retrofit this, these calculations, right?
Yeah. You can make adjustments, but that has to come from somewhere.
Yeah. But, but, but the good thing is if you're not the good thing, but, um, one of the positive aspects of saying, fuck, I've been operating this business for a year.
I'm not making ends meet. I didn't do any of those calculations that, that that guy was talking about.
Yep.
Do them now. Right. And just, it makes you restructure. Exactly. You're like,
okay, it might not be a whole overhaul and you're not going to change the brand. Sometimes that happens, but you might go. Okay.
I need to make 10 more ahead on food. Yeah. There you go. I'm going to get better sides. I'm going to push my stacks harder because people are just coming in for one main course and f ing off. Yeah. Um, or the adversity of that, I need to make an extra 25 ahead in Bev. Yep. I've got no cocktails. There's only one cocktail.
If only there was a
company that could
provide
those. Yeah, I'd f ing slip that Grada. au? Yeah. Um. Um. But it's so true. And, uh, you know, not to sell us like selling in these sorts of contexts, but we've over the last couple of years, the way we've worked with people in the drink space has been incredible to watch and talk about helping people. But also that's your business as well.
This is the perfect example where I've been able to go in places that are doing no cocktail revenue and you literally just help them enable that and the numbers are incredible. And. Um, I just use that obviously that real life reference is what we do But there's lots of examples of that in venues for sure where you can go in there and um There'll be a gaping hole in their business where you're like, that's money.
Yes, so you're not making yeah, that might be you've got No wine. You know, you haven't got enough wines on the list. Your food selection is 50 percent of what it should be. Like, there's, there's lots of these, um, examples. But you go in and adjust, it'll make a huge difference.
Absolutely. It gives you that viability that you're lacking.
And I think you can do it one of two ways, right? Like, you can sort of look at it and go, Okay, I need, I need either my, um, Check spend to be an extra 10 bucks, you know, or I just need more people. Exactly. You know, Bums
on Seats is the, or generally the most obvious thing. Or both. Yeah. Um, is, is the most obvious thing.
I think the biggest learning I'd say from Bar Liberty Days is not being able to capitalize on, um, busyness,
right?
Because we were so small.
Sure.
Right. Cause we didn't have upstairs ready, which is a PDR show. We didn't have out the back ready and we headed into winter anyway. Um, but that's the other thing.
It's like a lot of people focus on, okay, what happens if it goes wrong?
Right.
Not that many people look at it as, What happens if it goes right and it goes really right? Yeah, what do we do in that scenario? And is this the right venue? Yeah. Because if the concept I have, I believe in so much. I've got the right team for the right time.
Yeah. And I'm in the right neighborhood or focusing on the right neighborhood. Should I be trying to get something that's 20 more seats?
Sure.
Because the difference of 20 seats across, say, say you're open five nights a week Um, and you turn the tables. Let's say once, um, on average, then what's that a hundred seeds, a hundred.
Yep. I'm bad at math. Yeah. Um, uh, yeah. And you say your, your minimum, your base spend is 80 bucks. Yeah. It's a lot of money. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and yeah, I think that's, that's probably a learning from us where like, Those early days in those first few years where it was going really well We just didn't have the capacity to capitalize over the sort of friday saturday night
Sure the
span over time we did because we started doing the private dining and it all helped Um, but being able to have a space that actually capitalizes on your business is is really important And I don't just say that in terms of um more seats as well.
It can also just be on Um, functionality of the venue, right? Because again, Bar Liberty, rabble warren, right? You can't, you can't stand anywhere in that venue and see everyone's, no way. And you could run the same capacity with one less staff member on each side. So that's 70, 80 grand a year you're probably saving if that venue was all in a square,
right?
So, you know why I think people don't think about that scenario of. What if it goes right and it goes really right? Like you guys and most of your venues historically are in the most fucking extreme end of that bell curve Like no one else has really had to solve that problem, you know, oh not a lot of people haven't had that privilege, you know
Yes, there's plenty.
Yes, it's fucking hot out there right now. Restaurants are closing. There is still plenty of people doing okay. That's true. Um, and then I, you know, going out to new venues, it's, it's honestly usually the thing I'm worried about the most. Right. Is them not capitalizing on how good they're actually. Their product is.
Wow. And how good their team is. It's amazing. Um, because you look at the space and you're like, this isn't functional.
Mm.
You're not, um. I talk about functionality over capacity because you're, if you're a busy space. If it's managed well, and it's more functional, you could get 30 percent more people in a night.
Right. And something I've
always banged on about in my venues with managers is like at Liberty, we had people hanging off the fucking walls with glasses of wine while they wait for their table and they loved it. Yeah, exactly. And I think a lot of people are nervous about, Oh, I don't want to sit them there because it's not really a spot.
Sure. Just like pack it in. Yeah. You know, can't afford not to. Yeah, exactly. Um, and the best experiences I've had. Um, a lot of people have had of being in those environments where it's like the music's up, everyone's smiling, it feels really great in there. And it's like, fuck, there's no seats, but God, they made, they accommodated me and we always used to have a drinks pass at Liberty.
That we literally clear the drinks pass to put two people there to have a drink while they're waiting for their table. And every 10 to 20 seconds they'd get, Oh, sorry, excuse me. But they also got the best experience because the bartender was afraid and having a really good chat. You could see the front part of the venue and you could constantly communicate with him when the table was coming up and it's the best thing ever.
So I think it's like, that isn't an overly functional venue, but it's actually just the way you, the way you, uh, implement service and how you treat people and how you bring them in. So, yeah, I think, yes, capacity is one thing. You could just go get a bigger venue, but, um, yeah, functionality and then followed very closely by service to how you, how you make that work.
So if we, if we sort of loop back into the how bit and those, and those categories, And segway it by saying, say I'm in that, say I'm a currently trading business. I haven't run those numbers, but I do now on the back of hearing this, I realized that I'm short 10 bucks, um, ahead, right, on my spend, but I can't, I'm not, I'm not in a great position to increase that because say I'm already using the drinks and I'm already doing all the, all the bits and my concept is very, very niche, right?
And I therefore then have to. Get that shortfall through Bum's on Z. Yep. Um, so I guess like this loops back into the marketing category, you know, because I think a lot of people don't consider marketing. Anywhere near the start of this whole project, right?
No, I think marketing I used to think was a really dirty word at the start of life in business.
Yeah. And I didn't want to do any of it. Yeah. Loved seeing an article from us, that's more PR obviously. But didn't really know how to market the venue. Was
that because you just didn't understand what marketing actually was or how to define it? Probably
not how to define it properly. Yeah. Um, but we kind of accidentally did a lot of marketing and we would never call it marketing.
We just did events. Yeah. Cause we're like, Oh, the early weeks, be quiet. Okay. Once a month, we're going to do a wine dinner. Yeah. There you go. Pick a region or pick a winemaker and we're going to do 12 seats, maybe 20 upstairs if we push it. Um, and it's going to introduce more people to the venue and fill that little gap on that Wednesday night once a month.
Right.
Amazing.
And we just went hard on that. And that went really, really well to the point where it. All the seats started filling up and then we just stopped doing them. Right. And then we focus on bigger events that were like our birthday party was always a big one. We would like go really hard on and do a big, big night.
Um, and a few other types of parties that we'd focus on throughout the year. And suddenly you were in a position where. You were marketing the venue to the people that love you, but then also introducing new people to the venue. Right.
For you, you're creating more brand equity across your customer base.
Huge amount of brand
equity. And it's like, you know, collabs are being done to death now. Yeah. But they're so important. Well,
they've been done to death because they've worked so well. Because they work. So many brands. Exactly. Like
people love doing them. Um, You know, I would argue if you bring a chef from Sydney, let's say somewhere close and bring them down.
The experience in your venue with that chef isn't as good as in their venue up in Sydney. Of course. Yeah, totally. When they collaborate really well though, they create a really interesting experience and a great night. That's unique. Exactly, unique to that moment, right? Yeah, yeah. You know, you never, you never, This is a one off thing.
You're never going to get the same experiences again. And if you can nail that and do it on repeat without exhausting people is, that's a really quick way to build brand equity. Cause it opens up
that, um, It opens up that doorway for that real amazing fleeting unique creativity to happen. Exactly. Like I've been, I've been just crying out for like months now for Kyle at Lilac.
He did this, um, pop up event, um, over Melbourne food and wine and he made a surf and turf main. The best. And it was the best thing I've ever eaten. And I'm like, can you just please put this on the menu? Just be so good. But it kind of can't happen. Yeah. Cause it was special then. You know and just because it was especially in the moment.
Yeah. Yeah, I
think some of I think you're right Some of those things needed, um, you know kind of die on the hill It'd be a fleeting memory about the venue. Yeah, but then others can bleed through really that is true. That is true the only reason um You know ketchup You know, Bar Liberty is responsible for, you know, the fucking onslaught of that dish across Australia.
Um, and that started, uh, Casey served it in a pizza box, um, during the Italian wine dinner that we did at Bar Liberty. And everyone lost their minds at how good it was. It was gorilla pasta from the supermarket with some cheese and pepper, right? And then we're like, you gotta put this on. It's like, Oh, it's a bit simple, isn't it?
And we put it on and the fucking rest is history. Like that's the probably the most ordered dish from that venue, even though it hasn't been on for a few years now. But that was, that went like wildfire. Yeah. And so it's like, That dish would never have probably happened unless we did that Italian dinner.
Um, and there's lots of examples like that through what we've done through events or collaborations, whatever else, it just spawns great ideas and can bleed into your, your business. And it's such a great way to market peers. You're also able to test things that you wouldn't able to test sometimes. So that could be a new dish That could be doing a drinks pairing and that could be a cocktail Yeah, that could be just how to set up your restaurant to fit more people cuz I was a crazy event that you've overbooked But yeah, yeah We can fit 20 more people than we thought we could.
Yeah. Don't worry about licensing.
You're just, you're, you're evading tram fare.
But um, yeah, it just pushes creativity more than anything. And I think people that are great at what they're doing now, our industry do it with less tools
than most. Right.
It's the ones that the classic, you talk about like the blank check thing.
Yeah. People that have opened, What do you mean? Oh, okay. So this is where I feel
like
I've been. Kind of subpar.
Totally.
And you're like, why? Because there's no imagination.
So, you know, there's, um, you can very easily find a lot of case studies and, um, academic papers that talk about the concept of constraint driven innovation.
Yes, absolutely. Yeah.
And you know, what is the best example ever? Like I've probably read at least 20 of these fucking articles and, and out of all of them, the best example, the Caesar salad.
Do you know the
story? This is all I've got to cook, yeah. The GM of that restaurant, Cesar's, he sent the chef home early, and then the owner turned up with four mates after the theatre, and was like, hey, we're starving, tell the chef to just make us something, and sat down.
And the GM's like, fuck. And so he runs out the back, and he's just like, there's no chefs here, I've just literally got to try and put something together based on the leftover bits of prep. And made that salad and look at it today. Yeah, yeah Most famous
salad
in the world.
I think it's so true. And I where I learned That specifically was Attica.
Oh, yeah, right.
How how so then oh a tiny venue Really not equipped to do, you know a 10 plus course dining experience By any stretch of the imagination. Yeah, um, it's definitely better now since they refit. Okay, um, but yeah from its start and ben was very Um in you know Looking at how to serve the best possible.
Food out of that venue,
right?
And we're just working out a way to do it. Got it. And not having the bells and whistles not having just building things himself Working out step by step like what the best things were for the output Without worrying too much that oh, you know, i'd love to have a blast chiller I'd love to have whatever the thing is and it's not it's not there.
Yeah, come up with something. Yeah. Yeah, exactly um We were kind of given the same Uh idea in front of house that adequate was like Make the best experience possible. Yeah. How? Yeah. So, okay. Think through every step. Yeah. Right. And how can you make that 1 percent better, but do it on a pretty close to zero budget.
All right.
And
when we open Liberty. That's a really specific thing about opening venues is that we definitely didn't have the money, right? Spray painted signs, for example. Um, we had no cushions on our bench seats. It was just timber. I remember it was black, black as well. So at night people would go sit down and just fall into the seat and think it was cushioned and just go.
How long did you not have cushions? Um, Hmm. Probably three to four months. It was like, yeah, it was a brutalist building, right? That's what it felt like. Did anyone ever
crack
it? No, not
really. Was this kind of before the times of like brutal reviews? Yeah, definitely. It was
probably on the edge of it. But honestly, you know, good service and good food, good drink.
Makes up for it. Curbs all things. Yeah, that's very true. And, um, Our ethos, uh, or at least mine going into it was like, okay, it's bare walls, bare seats, no cushions. Um, the heating in one of the rooms was fucked in the front room. Um, so it was quite cold. So we had like little space heaters hidden and that sort of shit.
Um, it was all these things wrong with it, but it was like one improvement a week. Got it. Just one thing. It's not a whole like 1 percent compounding idea. And I thought about that from a physical sense of the building. It's like. Okay, this week is a one new shelf. That's all we need. One new shelf to make service easier.
Add that weight of station to put more plates on. One more shelf to put more glassware on. Can we buy twice the amount of glassware so we have less polishing in the moment?
Can
we put a new frame on the wall to make it look better? Can we, can we, can we, can we? So just like one thing a week. And I think we've been stuck in this world, I've spoken about this before on panels and stuff before, and people have been.
Kind of hit me up about it after I'd be like, no, no, no. You've got one shot of opening a venue in this amount of time to get it right. Um, I had a few people from the U S actually say that to me, um, that I know, and it might be slightly different over there, but, um, you know, we live in a world now where people do think they need to open something that's finished.
Right. Yeah. Good luck with that. Good luck.
And I've been finished in terms of the concept, in terms of, um, The, um, aesthetically finished, you know, et cetera, et cetera.
I remember, you know, I remember real quick, I was, you know, one of the greatest projects I've ever worked on was with the fat duck.
Yeah.
And I remember them telling me that like, you, um, you, you haven't nailed the project unless you know that like, Um, four minutes before the first guest walks in, there's still a builder with a screwdriver.
I agree with that. The day we opened Bar Liberty we didn't even have a glass washer. It was getting, it was flooding and it was getting removed and the new one getting put in, it was an absolute nightmare. And all those venues have been like that. Um, you know, a day off, we're doing the last few things. And I've always like, yes, you need a comfortable, you know, albeit cushionless venue to open at the start and be able to deliver the food in a timely fashion.
All the key metrics to just having an okay restaurant experience service can make it way better. Um, but then you can build upon it and just make it better slowly and slowly and slowly. Whereas I've spoken to restaurant owners are like, nah, you don't have everything. I can. You know, unless you're trying to open NOMA, like
you do to chill out, like.
Totally. I mean, all these things you were talking about, right? Like the constraint driven innovation or, or however the words you used for that term. And then, um, this desire to open something, open a finished product. Look, these are all dynamics that you also need to manage within your teams. You know, when you, when you yourself have kind of figured all that out and reconciled all that stuff, you're still going to go, Hey, Hey, I've picked the, you know, I've done everything right.
I picked the head chef, but they're not ready with the menu cause they want it to be X. How do you manage that?
It's pretty difficult. I probably, the example, um, the examples I have now outside of restaurants and more in product, what we do with the drinks and, um, with Grado and homegrown. And I'm, as I said before, very guilty of sprinting, um, on things pretty quickly.
Yeah. Very quickly. Yeah. Um, and try to drag everyone. And I constantly have these conversations around, um, progress over perfection and really sometimes dragging people and they're like, please, mm. I can see. This is great. Yeah. And I need you to know this is great what you've done. Mm. We're gonna go Mm-Hmm.
And we're gonna go real hard.
Mm-Hmm. .
Um. Because at the end of the day, you are running a business as well. Um, and when you've created something that needs to be in the market more quickly, or you need to do 10 times the amount of events you're doing or whatever the thing is, why you need to go quick is that, um, Yeah.
As we said before, a lot of people aren't on board with that. Yeah, sure. Sure. And they need to have like the slow steadier approach. Sure. Um, which you need to totally respect 'cause those people are really important in business. Mm. Because it does make you stop and reflect, but you
also should have worked that out when you're deciding the who anyway.
Exactly. And I think it's not to say those per people shouldn't be in the business, but you need to work with them in a way that they feel that. They've got enough, um, understanding what you're doing and the why you're going so fast to be comfy in what, in, in doing that.
Um, it comes back to that clarity, doesn't it?
I mean, when my mind goes to with that sort of thing is, you know, it's the, it's again, it's another unsexy kind of answer, but it's about the project plan. You know, like if you tell me, Hey man, like if I'm saying I'm your head chef and you're like, Hey, I need you to have that menu ready by the
Yeah.
And I don't know anything else around that due date.
Then I guess the amount of time I'm going to spend on that is going to be, you know, really just fairly unanchored. But if I can actually go, hey, I need it on the 1st of May because on the 3rd of May we've got this press release happening and we need photos for this. And then I can just see all the web and how my one task impacts those 17 other things.
Well, that project management becomes incredibly important. Yeah. A lot of the time I've been quite good on that, in that space. But there's been a few projects I've been working on at the moment within the company that, um, we haven't had that drop dead date. Right. Cause we're like, well, here's what we've all agreed on.
We need to hit by this date. Here's the current project we're doing within the company. And then you might have some sub projects. So, and then suddenly those sub projects are like, well, you know, we've all agreed that this other thing is the most important thing. So we'll let these other smaller things kind of just track along.
Sure. And then you kind of come a month away and you're like. It's not having progressed, we're in the same position, why? Because you didn't put a dead, a drop dead date on it. Yeah, totally. And you, you kind of become distracted by the big goal. So in project management, it's like, yes, those big Um, big goals are great, and you need to do them to achieve, but don't forget about the rats and mice as well, because they can come back to fuck you later.
Totally, and it just, again, the amount of times I've seen project plans that just don't have dates on them, or initials on the tasks, or whatever. Yeah, well, it just turns into like the weekly project meetings end up just becoming unstructured and unproductive and it's Well, they
end up becoming this carbon copy of the conversation you had the week before.
Yeah. Um, and everyone just goes, Oh yeah, I was meant to call them, I haven't Yeah, oh god. Or, yeah, yeah, I'm working on it, I haven't got a call back. Or, I haven't, and it's like, it's, oh, you're like, oh my god. While we're having this meeting. Yeah. Insane. That's why I say the other thing, agendas are super important and minutes, agenda and minutes.
'cause the action items come outta the minutes. Yeah. But if you're having project meetings and not doing an agenda and then not doing minutes, there's no point doing the project meeting. Totally because. Um, it's just a combo and gender is really great, especially for people that forgot to do the actions.
Yeah, because if you put an agenda, uh, together, it comes out 48 hours before or 24 hours before, even fucking two hours. Yeah, it's enough to go, Oh fuck. I was meant to do these two things. Smash it out. I've missed that. Yeah. I'll jump on that now. So let's go into the meeting with some information for my team.
Mate, so true. Whereas if you don't do the agenda, then you're doing a disservice to the team. everyone, uh, including yourself. Um, and then it makes the project many much easier to go through.
Hectic. I just, I love how I'm going to, I'm going to start wrapping this up. Yeah. Cause I reckon it is just hilarious.
This poor journey that we've got. It's funny. Like we, we started off kind of going, let's keep it really practical. We went into these deep ass levels of philosophical philosophical conversation and then we just landed in like the most practical thing you could possibly make an agenda right minute. That is Pretty fucking funny.
Um, bro, man, I just feel like we could keep going for another three hours and pick any of these topics. So, uh, man, let's, let's see how the audience like this. And if they do, maybe we'll just do it a bit more on the reg. I mean, I, I personally feel like, you know, you nailed the brief, you know, there was so much in what you said that people are going to unpack.
And in a weird way, maybe how we'll tie this up is that you've come on, with the intention of sharing, you know, your thoughts on, on how to do hospitality, you've ended up sharing so much more about your personal ethos and your personal, you know, um, purpose and meaning. And you, and you talked about being happy, but there was also such a massive desire to help others in it.
Yeah.
And just by sharing your thoughts today, you've, you've again, you know, helped so many people, man. So thank you. Um, it's always a pleasure to hang out with you. It's always a privilege to hang out with you. And I'm glad that, So many other people now get a little bit of a snapshot into the amazing, um, relationship I have with you and the, and the topics of conversation that I get to have with you.
So thanks for coming on, bro.
No worries, mate. Appreciate
it.
Anytime.
Thanks, dude. How was that? It was good. Fucking nailed it,
mate.
Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of Principle of Hospitality. I hope you enjoyed it. And as always, this is a business to business podcast. So please like, comment, share and subscribe. But most importantly, share with your friends in the industry. We're making this content with the industry in mind.
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