Foreign it's around the House on this episode of around the House.

If you see it, their reviews gradually getting worse and worse and worse.

And more recently they've had some really bad ones.

That is a sign that this, this contractor is probably having financial difficulties.

And you know, it's just a matter of time before the music stops and you're left without a chair to sit in.

And you know that it's going to land in somebody's unfortunate lap when, when things finally implode on that contractor.

So that's, that's something that we always encour to look for and we look for it for them if they, you know, like for us to do so.

That is so smart because how the traditional contractor goes under is that they're taking, you know, they're robbing Peter to pay Paul.

So you know when your final check is paying that you're writing to them is actually paying for the next job.

Yes, that's exactly right.

And they're just trying to pay it forward.

And like you said, that's a great analogy.

When the music stops.

When it comes to remodeling or renovating your home, there is a lot to know and we have got you cover.

This is around the house.

Welcome to the round the house show, the next generation of home improvement.

Thanks for joining me.

I'm Eric G.

This hour is brought to you by our friends at Monument Grills.

If you're looking for that cool barbecue for under 900 bucks, check them out@monument grills.com and today we have got an education for you.

It doesn't matter if you're a homeowner, a builder, remodeler, this is all going to apply.

We have Andy Wyman, construction law attorney and owner of Wyman Legal Solutions and co owner, the master Construction Advisors down in beautiful Boca Raton, Florida.

Welcome to around the House brother Eric.

Great man, thanks.

It's really good to be here.

It's nice to see you, man.

It's nice to see you.

And this is such a hot topic and I love chatting with people like you about this stuff because usually I'm out there waving the flag alone going there's a lot that you need to know with this stuff.

And it doesn't matter if you're starting your own little first remodeling project and you got a couple of contractors showing over you're building a house or if you're a brand new remodeler.

It's important for everybody.

It is.

And you know what?

Homeowners are at such A disadvantage.

They just don't know what they don't know.

And they're in such need of protection.

And they can really.

Florida is one of those states also where they do they make it a little more difficult to protect the consumer.

So that's really kind of, it's motivating for me and it's motivating for my staff here to see what we could do to best protect people, to have, you know, the projects of the dreams, the ones that they're envisioning in their heads when they start.

Yeah.

And you know, it's interesting.

And from the builder side and the residential homeowner side, you know, there's a lot of homeowners out there that think that they can manage a construction project like they do their Amazon account.

Oh, I don't like it.

I'm just gonna send it back.

It's a whole different ballgame when it comes to contracting.

And the first thing that I always say is, what's in the contract?

Yeah, no, that's true.

I mean, the two, you know, so with the work that we do, you know, historically we've done a lot of litigation where we represent owners or contractors in a.

And for a homeowner, you don't want to be in a lawsuit.

It's not where you want to end up.

But when these people come to us and their project has gone completely sideways already in terms of it's taking too long, it's costing too much, the work isn't good, maybe they hired an unlicensed contractor.

All those things you really hear about.

The two mistakes I find that homeowners make more than anything else is they don't know how to vet and hire a good contractor.

They don't even know what questions to ask.

And they don't sign a contract that protects them if they've signed one at all.

And I think what, what a lot of contractors and owners kind of tend to think is these contracts are like a win lose.

Like either you're going to have a good contract or I'm going to have the good contract.

But it doesn't have to be that way.

And a good contract is going to help facilitate the project and be a win win for everybody.

Well, and it's.

And for both sides, that's what legally has to be performed is what's in that contract.

So if a contractor writes down remodel kitchen her plans and there's nothing written on the plans or the plans aren't.

Attached, that's actually, that's absolutely right.

It's, you Know, down to.

I always tell homeowners, if you were promised it and you are expecting it, make sure it's written into the contract with.

With in detail.

Otherwise, you know, you can't expect to get it.

Yeah, it's crazy.

And, and I see this so many times.

I'm in a lot of social media groups where I'm commenting and things like that.

And you know the first thing when somebody's mad, oh, this.

It's taken too long.

It's not what I thought.

The cabins didn't show up, the tub's wrong.

And the first question I ask is, well, you might think it's wrong.

What's your contract say?

Because it's just there's no winning when you get into the lawsuit game.

It's just, how much is it going to cost you?

How much is it going to lose?

And I've never really seen.

And you've seen this way more than I have, but trying to sue an unlicensed contractor seems to be even a losing battle.

That's hard to win.

Absolutely.

Because not only.

I mean, even if you invest the money you need to to get to the point where you've won and a court says you're entitled to some amount of money back, good luck trying to collect it.

And so you get a piece of paper that's.

I say it's not even worth the paper that it's printed on.

So we like.

To anyone who's got those kinds of problems, we try to put the most pressure we can on the unlicensed contractor to do what the client wants without bringing them through the litigation process.

Because, yeah, once they're in court, they've almost already lost.

Yeah, I've had the.

With my 30 years of design and construction background, I've been construction witnesses before for remodels and things like that, where the attorney pays me to come in and give my two cents on it.

And seeing it from that side, I've never been sued in a construction thing like that before, but seeing it from that side of things, wow.

It's absolutely incredible how this stuff goes.

Yeah.

And I've told people that whether you're fighting over $10,000 or $10 million, I mean, each individual def.

Has its own.

But you have your burden of proving it.

And you need an expert, someone like you to come in and give that objective opinion as to something that doesn't meet a standard of care or what was promised in the contract.

And so the expense in litigating those things is often.

It's too prohibitive.

To make court a worthwhile endeavor for most people.

So what do you recommend?

Homeowners out there, they're, hey, I'm going to do, let's just go a bathroom remodel.

We'll just pick something pretty common.

Yeah, I'm going to do a bathroom model.

What do you recommend?

And I know, you know, you're an attorney, but this isn't legal advice for everybody out there.

We'll put that thing out there.

Right.

You know, thanks.

But you know, it's, it's one of those things that what do you recommend to people out there when they're, when they're trying to start that process of hiring a contractor?

Yeah.

So the first thing you want to do is you, you want to do your own homework before you reach out to a contractor in the first place.

You want to get an idea about what it is you want and have a budget in mind and know the amount of money that you want to spend.

When it comes to getting a contractor in, having, you know, doing a thorough, your due diligence on a contractor is super important.

I mean, there are red flags that are either that can very easily be located or that you should, from what you're observing, trust your gut and follow and you know, and avoid certain contractors when you see certain things.

Obviously the most important things, you want someone who's licensed, you want someone who's insured.

Those are some of the basics.

Everybody says that not everybody knows where to go to find that information.

And so, you know, our state in Florida, we've got the department of Business and professional regulations where you could go and do these kinds of searches.

But you know, you're going to want to know whether or not there's been any license complaints against that contractor.

You know, you want to also pay attention to the way to whether or not this contractor is keeping his or her promises to you during this period of time where they're trying to win you over.

Because how they act and behave in, in that circumstance is going to be magnified tenfold within a project.

So for example, if they tell you, hey, I'll be to you at 5 o'clock on Thursday and we'll talk through what you want.

And then it's five, it's 5:30, it's 6:00.

They show up at 6:00.

They didn't give you the call in advance to tell you that they're going to be late.

That's a red flag.

That's how this person acts and communicates.

So during the project, when you Want to know why someone is not showing up at your house on Monday as promised?

You've kind of have seen what type of person you're dealing with.

So you want to make sure that, you know, you have someone who you can rely upon what they say, they're following through.

They're giving you the, you know, they're following through on what they promised to you.

They're showing up when they say they should, they're delivering to you proposals when they say they should, and follow up and pay close attention to how they communicate.

You know, there are.

There are a lot of builders, a lot of contractors.

I mean, they'll put a real full court press on you to try to get you to sign up really quick without the opportunity to look at a contract or you know what, we don't need a contract.

That's a big warning sign.

Any contractor who.

Where you need a permit and they tell you you don't want to, we don't have to use a permit because of what it's going to, how much extra time it'll take and money it'll cost, you want to avoid those contractors for sure.

So, you know, communication is super important.

At the heart of basically every dispute in this kind of circumstance is really someone who's not communicating well or maybe two people who aren't communicating well.

And as a homeowner, if you've never done this before, you don't really know what to expect.

And I get this.

When people come to my law firm for the first time, they've maybe never hired a lawyer, they don't know what to expect.

You know what, as the lawyer, it's my job to sort of be your tour guide and tell you how this is going to work.

Here's what's going to happen next, because I do this all day, every day.

Contractors has the same opportunity to really impress the client and the owner with their knowledge of the process and get the owner comfortable with what they're about to go through.

But not a lot of contractors take advantage of that.

I mean, it's a real great.

It's almost like a marketing opportunity you have if you handle it the right way as the contractor.

Yeah, it's crazy.

This is the honeymoon period, as I call it.

So if they're not on their best behavior and doing everything on the schedule that they've set up or, hey, I got to do this, I got to do this.

I have a meeting here.

Those are all warning signs.

And you know, it's funny, I wish that we had a better thing across the United States for, for contractor licensing.

Because I get.

It's a state thing, but some states go, oh no, it's a city thing.

You know what I mean?

So, yeah, you get up into the Northeast and it's like, well, I got my city of Philadelphia contractor's license and I have my.

This county one.

And it gets a lot harder.

I'm in a state here in Oregon where we have the Oregon ccb and they, from a consumer point of view, they're awesome.

I could literally call them up on the phone.

They answer and I'm going to make up a name and go, hey, I'm thinking about having ABC Construction do something for me.

And they go, hey, let's pull up their file and let's take a look.

And they guide you through it, which is awesome.

That's great.

That is awesome.

Because you can get on a phone with an expert there.

And they go, well, they've had two complaints, but they've been around for 34 years.

So that's actually below average.

Yeah, yeah.

That's fantastic.

I mean, that's really great when you've got that kind of board who's willing to put in the extra effort to protect the homeowners like that.

It's not perfect, but, you know, it's such an easy thing in our state that I just go, just call them, get on the phone, they'll answer, and then you can find out where they're like, hey, wait a minute, this guy's been, you know, closed for two years.

And again, they're one of, you know, we're one of the states, Washington, you get into California, a lot of these states that have these bigger programs.

It seems that when their bond and insurance goes off, within minutes they've got it flagged in their.

And their licenses pulled, which is also great.

Yeah, you know, and one other thing a lot of people don't, at least down here in Florida, which is a big problem, is you get folks who are unlicensed going around trying to sign up jobs, and they've got some licensed person in the background who is pulling permits for them.

And so I'm not sure how it works in Oregon or other states, but in Florida, licenses are given to individuals.

And for a company to do contracting, the individual has to qualify the company.

It requires an application to the state and a legitimate connection between the license holder and the company.

So when you hire a company and that company doesn't have a qualifying agent, a licensed person, they're unlicensed contracting.

Even if they've Got their buddy in the background pulling the permits for your job.

And that's a violation of the person who holds the permit.

It's a violation of their permitting status and regulation.

And that's the worst.

It's one thing when you got unlicensed guys running around.

It's another when people with the licenses don't realize the jeopardy that they're putting their own license and the profession in by allowing these unlicensed people to go out there and undercut you because they're going to be cheaper, because they're going to do worse work.

And it just lowers the bar all around.

I've seen people out there that were former employees, right.

Of a contractor still have the business card, and they're out running around, still trying to sell jobs under the name, but they're just taking the money themselves.

And then they go start up like an LLC where they slightly change the name so when they write the checkout, they can put it in their account.

And, I mean, nothing surprises me anymore with the level of that handful of, you know, illegal contractors out there that are trying to take the money out of hardworking people that are just taking them to the cleaners.

Yeah, absolutely.

And, you know, one of the things, you know, I think this is really important is to understand who the license holder is and to get some sort of background on that person.

You certainly want to know if they've got any type of, you know, criminal background, bankruptcies, you know, lawsuits, all of that.

So, I mean, there's a lot of information that's out there if you know where to look and if you know where to find it, you know, And Neil, look.

So this is actually a service we provide for homeowners down here, is we will vet contractors for you.

We go through all of this.

We search their insurance.

We do all of that.

We look through.

You know, one thing you can do yourself and you want to look for is take a look at their reviews online.

Take a look at whether it's Google or Yelp or whatever it is.

If you see their reviews gradually getting worse and worse and worse, and more recently, they've had some really bad ones.

That is a sign that this contractor is probably having financial difficulties.

And it's just a matter of time before the music stops and you're left without a chair to sit in, and it's going to land in somebody's unfortunate lap when things finally implode on that contractor.

That's something that we always encourage people to look for, and we look for it for them, you know, Would like for us to do so.

That is so smart.

Because how the traditional contractor goes under is that they're taking, you know, they're.

Robin Peter.

To pay Paul.

So, you know, when your final check is paying, that you're writing to them is actually paying for the next job.

Yes, that's exactly right.

And they're just trying to pay it forward.

And like you said, that's a great analogy.

When the music stops and you're the project, you're in trouble.

That's exactly right.

That's exactly right.

So.

And right now we're into, you know, I think that's.

But looking at construction right now, at least on the west coast, we're kind of in one of Those, you know, 2007, 2008, 2011, 12 areas right now where things have slowed down a little bit.

And, you know, people with the election, this is kind of another one of those election things.

So, again, it's one of those times that you gotta be really careful because after booms, you see more of the contractors go down.

Cause they've been flying, they're not watching their books, and all of a sudden they're like, hey, I just paid my bills and I'm way short.

Yeah, yeah.

And, you know, so, yeah, I mean, it's a real tough thing.

And here in Florida, you know, we've had a few hurricanes blow through here over the last 12 months.

You know, we got contractors who are coming in from other states, which is fine.

We need the help.

I mean, we really do need the manpower for sure.

But, you know, you just got to be extra careful and diligent about who you're hiring and making sure that they're authorized to do, you know, the work.

And then one final thing, we ask, you know, the owners, we encourage the owners to do before they hire a contractor.

You ask for a reference.

And, you know, of course the contractor will give you a couple of happy clients that they had.

But there are.

We've got this list of 25 questions that we give to people as a free resource of questions they should be asking their contractors.

And it's not just, hey, did they do good work?

I mean, you want to know, were you given a dedicated person to address questions or concerns with?

Did you ever catch them in a lie?

How did they do completion time versus what they promised?

Did they show respect for your home?

Did they cover the floors when they were traipsing through there with.

With bringing old material out and new material in?

Did they respect the rules of your home?

You know, and all the how is the rest of their communication?

All of these things that you may not think to even ask somebody you know, but are important to you as a homeowner that you're going to want to know.

So, you know, that's super important, too.

Great stuff.

One of the things that I think it's missed as well, even in a good contract that I've seen, that's just.

And you're going to smile and laugh at this.

But.

But payment schedule, down payment, when's the money changing hands?

Right, right.

And that's important both ways.

I mean, it's important.

So we try to encourage our homeowners.

You kind of want to see the payments on sort of a bell curve.

Right.

You've got 10 or 20% at the beginning, 10 or 20% at the end.

Everything else kind of in the middle.

You don't want to give away too much leverage at the front end, but you do need to make sure money is flowing.

So the job runs from a contractor perspective.

You know, I.

I've seen.

Here's a great example, you know, remainder of payment when job is complete.

What does that mean?

That's a gray area.

What is job complete?

Like, I don't know what that means.

Right.

Like, does that mean when it's past inspection?

Does that mean when you finish my punch list, you know, what is.

What does that mean?

So.

So that just.

That is all this gray area of.

To be that you could spend $100,000 litigating if you really wanted to, that you shouldn't have to.

And, yeah.

So clarity is on the.

In and around the payment.

We covered.

We covered here.

You probably saw this on the news, and maybe it was a national story, but.

But we covered it here on the show here a couple years back.

And my friend Amber, if she's listening, she's just shaking her head right now going, okay, I'm going on the radio again with this.

But she was in Colorado.

Yes.

The guy.

And knocked out the.

I know exactly what you're talking about.

I use that as a case study for something I did once.

So she's a friend of mine.

Those were friends of the show that went out and put the house back together for her for sure.

Awesome.

So, I mean, we.

We did a radio interview basically live that we recorded as they were working and setting tile out there in the house, which was cool.

So it was fun to see.

But, you know, that contractor who showed up early, she wasn't home, didn't have access, legal access to the house because she had notified him not to come in there because there was a dispute over the quality workmanship and other stuff.

And he said, hey, I want to get paid.

Came over and decided to, for the people that are listening, repossess the bathroom remodel with a sledgehammer.

Yeah.

And so he came in and started swinging.

And I'll be the first to say this looked like a blind 7 year old did their first tile job.

It was just, and I apologize to the blind 7 year olds that are out there.

I'm not justice, but I don't want to insult you here, but holy smokes.

Yeah.

This was one of the worst tile jobs I ever seen.

And the end result, he ended up going to jail for that and his wife ended up going on probation.

But that was jail time for him.

And it should be.

It should be.

And that was not the only time he's done this.

And now I've heard he's left the state and is out doing business someplace else.

But, you know, that's one of those things.

He's on probation for a while and, and obviously that is the worst case scenario for many people.

But, you know, I felt bad as a single mom trying to navigate a remodel and this big guy's in there swinging a sledgehammer on the project.

That's as bad as it gets.

It totally is.

And I mean, that just underscores the importance of picking the right contractor at the start of your job.

You know, I mean, even if you don't even know where to turn and it's not, you know, it's not enough that, hey, they did a good job for my friend.

I mean, that's okay.

That's one box you could check.

But you know, if you call your local builders association to get the name of somebody, if you really don't even know where to start, you know, the local builders association finding those, those contractors that.

And remodelers that are, you know, have a membership with the national association of Home Builders Builders of the Florida Home Builder Association.

You know, I mean, it, it's at least, it's some credibility.

And it's, it's, it's, you'll know, it's someone who is at least cares about their reputation and standing in the community enough to, to have these sort of strategic alliances with the right groups of people.

And that, that right there says something about the quality of the person you, you're dealing with.

Yeah.

And if you're doing maybe a kitchen or bathroom model or you're doing windows and doors, go into the showroom and ask around and go, hey, who's your favorite contract contractor around here?

Because again, the ones that pay their bills and are the easiest to work with from the showroom status, you're a third of the way there already.

That's a great.

Yeah, that's great advice.

Absolutely.

You know, because I tell you what, it's just the ones that come in and start screaming and, oh, I'll pay next week.

That's the one you're trying to avoid.

And it's such a small percentage, but they do so much damage to the community when they do that.

They really do.

They do.

So I don't know if you see this down there a lot, but up here, you know, we have on older homes, this is another one that gets to be big up here.

If you've got a house in our area before 1970, they have to be certified for working in a house that potentially could have lead paint.

And that's another one of those.

So if You've got a 1976 house in my area here in Washington, Oregon, they have to be a lead certified.

Interesting.

And so, and then of course we have.

Which is kind of cool in Oregon, at least where I'm at, they have to have all the paperwork.

They have to have the, you know, asbestos lead, all these addendums as part of the contract.

So I always say, hey, reach out to your local, you know, licensing board and say, hey, what needs to be in the contract?

Or our state?

Because it seems like the guys that follow those rules tend to be more of a rule biter anyway.

Yeah, and that's a great point.

And every state I know, Florida has its own disclosures it requires in the contract.

And to me, that's another sort of checkpoint.

If you're given a contract from a contractor, does it look like a professional document?

Does it look like a document that was drafted by a teenager or something?

Again, you get that guy who left his other employer and he.

He uses their contract and kind of Frankensteins it together with something he found on Google or ChatGPT prepare for him.

And it's internally inconsistent.

The margins are off.

There's spelling mistakes.

When you see something like that, that's another red flag that shows you how much attention to detail they pay on something that is supposed to be a super important document.

And they either are not giving the right value and respect to a contract, or that's just the level of attention to detail they give everything.

So either way, it's not the contractor you want.

Exactly.

Now here's one of the Biggest panics that I see from homeowners.

They're in the middle of the project and all of a sudden they get a lien release that shows up in the mail, and they're like, what is this?

What's going on?

Liens are an interesting one.

Yeah, yeah, liens are.

I mean, most homeowners, they just don't.

They don't even understand what's happening, what they get.

So in Florida, you know, if you have.

If you have a direct relationship with the contractor, the kind you don't, the contract could lean your home for a subcontractor.

Before they could do something like that, they have to give a notice to owner at the beginning of their work to let them know we're on the job, we expect to get paid, and there's a proper payments, proper way to make payments as long as you've gotten that notice.

So they get that notice and they kind of freak out.

The notice itself is not recorded in the public records, and they don't understand the significance of it.

What I don't like seeing is when the subcontractors feel like giving that notice is an aggressive move and they don't want to do it, and then at the end of the job when they're not getting paid, then all of a sudden they're concerned.

Well, that says, look, if you do the notice at the front end of the job, it's not an aggressive move.

It's good business.

And anyone doing business with you who knows what it is is going to know that you're doing business and trying to do it the right way.

You're protecting your right to get paid, which I'm sure your wife and kids at home would really appreciate.

So that's just the right way to do business.

And I always encourage the contractors we work with.

Absolutely.

It's a part of your standard operating procedure.

You send these things out to make sure you get paid.

And yeah, at the time you send it, there's not a dispute.

Usually there's no.

But it's.

It's.

It's how you just protect yourself.

And it's not a.

It's not an aggressive move.

It's the right thing to do.

But for the contractors and subcontractors out there, if you were to give a simple call to the homeowner, explain that something's coming up, the mail might save you some headaches.

Yeah, it's the communication thing again, we were talking about that is at the source of all of all the disputes.

Oh, it is, it is.

And it just Gets absolutely wilder from that.

And, you know, the.

What is your take?

You know, I've run into a lot of problems with projects that people completed.

Someone, usually the contractor, didn't ever get the sign off or the final inspection from the, you know, local governing body.

Whoever you pulled the permit through, they never got that signed off.

So everything's done.

But it's still an open hanging permit out there that can cause you massive problems down the road.

What do you recommend for homeowners like that?

Because it's such a big part, but it's a little piece of paperwork that just seems to get missed, which can totally sideline the next project down the road.

Yeah, and not only that, it could sideline your ability to sell the house because that will come up on a title search.

The fact that you've got this open permit that needs to be closed.

Closed.

And so, yeah, I mean, as soon as you realize that that's happened, the less time that goes by, the better.

You need to reach back out to the contractor to get them to take care of it.

Now at that point, contractor's been paid his money, he's onto the next job.

He's probably not really in a hurry to get this thing done for you.

And that's where some additional pressure from a lawyer can get this done.

Where the contractor realizes you're taking it seriously.

That does.

Keeping these permits open and not closing them technically can be a violation of.

Of the licenses that they get your state license.

So, I mean, there are some buttons that I know how to press as a lawyer that will get them to snap their attention back to you and get this taken care of for you.

But otherwise, if for some reason the contractor might, they may be out of the picture.

I mean, in which case you're going to have to go to the city, go to the county, whoever issued it, and find out what your other options are.

Sometimes they let you move a permit over from the contractor to the owner and then you just have to get some other other contractor on board real briefly to, you know, to.

To just kind of either finish out the work that might not be done or, you know, help you process through the rest of it.

It shouldn't be too difficult, but you gotta.

You call the county or the city.

I had one here about five years ago in my design business that I went out, we started designing out the new kitchen.

They were doing a kitchen remodel.

This had been an addition 20 plus years ago.

Reputable company in the area had done the addition in the new kitchen.

They wanted an upgrade went in and did it.

Contractor went down, go talk to the city to make sure on the permits.

And they went, yeah, they never closed out that original one.

So you now have to bring that space up to what was 2017, 2017, 2018 building code.

So they were going to have to drywall, come down, insulate all these things.

And it made the Kitch remodel really not possible within their budget because they were going to have to spend another 40 or $50,000 in the entire edition just to bring it up to what would be the current code to get it signed off.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Wow.

That's, that's, you know, some of these stories are just, you know, it's just, it's sad for these homeowners and what they, what they go through sometimes when it's not, when they don't, when they're not hiring the right people to, you know, with the right qualifications.

And it's another thing here that there's a big hole here in real estate that I see.

And it comes up in remodeling.

And I've had it happen.

It was happening there probably once a year with unpermitted projects.

So what would happen was, and let's say you got that 1920s house that maybe it says it's 1200 square feet, but they finished the basement in the attic.

And it's, you know, on the tax rate, it's now says it's 2,800 square feet.

They go to pull a permit to do the remodel, cabinets are ordered, whatever, they're getting ready to start it first inspector shows up and goes, yeah, this second floor isn't on our plan.

So we have to treat this entire floor like it's a new build, a new remodel.

And it's something that I tell even people when they're buying homes, go talk to your building department.

Don't pay attention to the tax person because if you told them it's an 8,000 square foot house, they'd be happy to tax you for that.

But talk to your building department before and make sure that that number adds up to what the listing is to get what you're paying for.

Absolutely.

So the, the unpermitted work, I mean, it travels with the property.

So even whether you knew or you didn't know that work was done without a permit on your property, it becomes your fault.

If again, if the music stops and you're holding the.

And in Florida, at least the owners of someone who sells a piece of property who knows that there's been work done without a permit.

That's something that's material that they need to disclose whether they did the work or not.

They don't often, but you should know to ask the right questions.

Certainly if you're a homeowner buying a new home.

But yeah, I mean, that becomes a problem.

You inherit, and so you definitely, again, doing your due diligence and asking those questions.

Great advice to go down to the.

Check the building, the permit records for, you know, for the.

For the property before you buy it.

Yeah.

Cause all it takes is that enclosed porch that was.

Now that it's now the kitchen.

Right.

And you go to a kitchen remodel and they're like this square footage doesn't exist.

So, yeah, we're treating this like a new addition.

And now that $80,000 remodel just turned into $160,000 remodel and the budget's gone.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So.

So, yeah, it's crazy.

What other.

What other things are you seeing out there, Andy?

You know, there's so many disputes that we see now with.

With between homeowners and contractors.

Nothing ever surprises me anymore.

It seems just because of the technology and all the new stuff that we're putting in homes these days.

It seems like it's just compounding the issues in the communication process.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, it's.

Look as it is.

Emails, texts, all of that stuff.

I mean, they can be.

They're so easy to misinterpret a tone.

You can't read a tone into it.

Right.

So, I mean, it really.

It becomes a little.

It becomes a little dicey to really understand what someone is trying to, you know, relay to you.

What do you mean?

They put it all in caps.

Are they yelling at me?

What is it?

You know, so like, it's.

Yeah, but I mean, as far as, you know, I mean, as far as the disputes are concerned, you know, what's really confusing to a lot of homeowners is they get a price given to them in a contract, and they don't really understand whether or not that's a fixed price.

Is that just sort of like an understanding of what the estimate's likely to be based on a cost plus, and here's your allowances.

And what's going to happen if, you know.

And then what happens if, you know, by the time my contractor goes to buy my cabinets, you know, the price is like 30% higher than what we all thought it was going to be at the beginning.

And then they get hit with these surprises because it wasn't explained to them and it's a front and they don't know what to expect.

And so that has been especially once Covid came through.

Those sort of price escalations were a big issue that cropped up for a while between the owners and the contractors.

Man, you brought up a great one.

And that's change orders.

And I'm watching a case right now that I'm just kind of eyeballing quietly.

I like it when I watch it online and see what's going on.

But I'm watching them with a design firm in Seattle and, and the project price has tripled after the contract for this big remodel by hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Right.

But the scope hasn't changed and so now it's full on lawsuit.

So I can follow that.

But what is your opinion of change orders?

And is a phone message, a text or an email, what do you recommend with that?

Yeah, so I mean, as a lawyer, the thing I'm gonna recommend is probably gonna slow up the job.

Right.

So I'm gonna recommend that once we, once we know that there's a change in place, it should be documented into its own change order that describes the change to the price, the scope and the time that affect on the job and signed by both parties.

That is the cleanest way to do it.

But a lot of times in the field you're moving kind of quickly, you're discussing the change with the owner right there on the job.

Yeah, that sounds good.

Do that instead.

They're not going to stop everything to go back.

Certainly at the very least, you do need to document it in writing somehow as the contractor back to the owner.

Hey, here's what we agree to.

If you're doing it in a text or an email, so be it.

I mean, it's not the best idea, but maybe at least it'll confirm it for now and then you paper it into a legitimate change order as shortly after that as you possibly can.

The other thing that we see though is lots of times for change orders.

Lots of contractors insist on being paid in full for the change order up front before they do the change order work, as opposed to whatever the progress payments are for the rest of the job, or whether it's milestone payments or just monthly progress payments that can get a little.

Get a little dicey for some homeowners having to come out of pocket that much extra money, like in these chunks that, you know, maybe they weren't expecting.

And it kind of interrupts the flow of some of the other work that's going on because maybe it delays.

I don't know, maybe it delays some other milestone from getting hit because of this additional work you're doing.

Now as the contractor, you know, your next payment is due after completion of the drywall.

But now you can't complete the drywall, complete, whatever that means, because now you've had to do something different with the staircase or whatever.

You know, it's.

It's just, you know, it.

It kind of throws the whole, you know, a little monkey wrench into.

Into everything.

So again, I think with a good contract, you can kind of allow for these things.

And if everyone is above board and really wants to do the job the right way and everyone.

If you're dealing with people with integrity, you should be able to work through it.

Yeah, I actually had a contractor that I was working a lot with with my business that I said, hey, you know, talk to your attorney.

Here's a great place to start.

They built up a forum and he went out and just had notepads made of them, and they were just in everybody's trucks.

They could go in.

I got it out in the truck.

Hold on.

And he just, we're gonna have to make a change.

Cool.

And he would just sit there, write it on the paper, and then, you know, he would take pictures of it, take it back to the office.

And, you know, now there's programs with iPads and way better ways to do it.

But back then it was a, hey, here's a paper trail.

And at least they had something to work with.

And then the.

They would follow up with the copy of that in an email just to make sure that everybody had it.

But that was kind of the perfect way to do it.

Post, post, you know, job site, computer kind of thing.

But, you know, I think that's one of the things though, too, though, on the other side of that coin that we see is that, you know, the, The.

The poor contractors out there that underbid the job, and then they make all their money back on the change orders.

Okay, Right.

You know, they come in and go, hey, we were the low bidder by $30,000 on this project.

The time the con.

The.

The homeowner's done with the project, they were 30,000 over what the highest bid was.

And the contractor got the project because they under bet it.

And then change ordered them all the way through.

And that's the other flip side that you gotta be careful with as a homeowner.

Oh, for sure.

You shouldn't always go with the lowest bidder.

I've had clients who have contacted us and said, hey, you know, I've got this project.

You know, I've paid like 225 out of the 250,000 to this guy, and he's not even close to being done, you know.

And then when we kind of get into that conversation about the other bids they received on the job, it was 450, it was 500.

What do you think was going to happen when you hire someone at 250?

Like, that's, like that, that's, that's, you know, unfortunately, you didn't think about what was going to happen because you didn't know any better.

And that's.

Yeah, that's why getting advice and this is like your home for most people, your biggest asset.

Right.

I mean, it's where you spend the most time.

It's where you get out of the craziness of the world and it's where you expect to enjoy your life and live it and experience all those memories and to just leave it in the hands of someone you've done absolutely no vetting of and that you've got, you know, and it's because, look, if things go as planned, you get what you expect.

If they go poorly, it can set you back hundreds of thousands of dollars and years of misery.

And so, you know, take the extra time up front to make sure you're hiring the right person.

Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

And that's, that's one of the bigger things, too.

I recommend to people that have no construction knowledge, if you need to hire an independent inspector to come in and take a look at stuff that.

Yep, it, you know, a framing inspector, plumbing, you know, pre drywall, whatever, do it so you can figure that stuff out early and get it taken care of.

Because homeowners are expected.

It seems to understand everything.

And the building department sometimes can be really subpar is finding those minimums.

I mean.

Yeah.

I've been working on a project with some friends and.

And for this complete remodel, I think the building inspection process all the way through from rough to finish, I think we timed it at seven minutes of inspection time from the city.

They didn't look at it.

I was there for one of them.

I was like, oh, looks good.

Yeah, off to the next one.

And then there's others that come out and are checking everything.

But I think it's really smart when you don't have the knowledge to hire the expert to spend that little extra more to go through and look at a significant project to make sure that things are getting done correctly and that those milestones are getting reached correctly.

I couldn't agree with you more.

I mean, you know, the city inspectors, the county, the building inspectors, I mean they're there to make sure the minimum standard of it meets code is met and that's it.

But that doesn't mean that you've received, that you said you've hit the certain milestone for the payment or that it's really up to standard.

So for that reason is why I separately have the construction advisory company, this Master Construction Advisors with a general contract who's a Florida certified master builder.

And we help, we help do owner's rep type of work or introduce people to owner's reps.

Somebody who, not just to make sure that inspection time things are up to snuff, but to really be the experienced professional in the room for you as your advocate, to be your eyes, your ears and your mouthpiece because maybe you're custom building a four, five, six million dollars home and you've never done this before.

Maybe you're a busy professional, you don't have time to supervise it, so you leave, you just, oh, my wife will take care of it.

What does she, she doesn't know either.

Right.

Or you're, maybe you're live in one state and you're building something in another state or you're just used to having, you know, you understand the value of a professional and that's what you want to do.

That's what, that's what, you know, there's such value in that.

Yeah.

Your job probably needs to be of a certain size to withstand the extra expense of it.

But if, you know, but, but the, I mean the value is immeasurable.

Yeah.

I had a friend, a former colleague I used to work with, I haven't talked to in a while, but they live down in Florida, a couple.

Couple.

They had a new house built down and of course concrete block construction.

You know, it was one of them by the largest home builders.

There was so much of a bow in the master bathroom wall they couldn't hang the mirror up on because it wouldn't.

It was flopping around on the wall because it was touching in the center and it was three quarters of an inch on the edge and it just kind of moved around because There was a 3 inch radius on the wall when they built built it.

It's not structural, not to plan really, but you know what I mean, those are things that you really want them to go.

Hey, okay, building code is the D minus.

We want to get you up to.

A B yeah, right, right.

You know, right.

That's what I'm, you know, it, it's, it's great for life, safety and welfare, but there's other things that need to make sure that, you know, so you have a project that's going to withstand it.

And the more technical homes get, the bigger it is with all of our, you know, know, water systems and, you know, ventilation and all these things.

Every year our homes get, you know, by orders of magnitude, it seems more complex than, than they were a few years ago.

So having somebody in there that understands all the systems and how they work and save you some headaches down the road when that contractor's long gone.

Yeah.

Oh, absolutely.

You know, and that's the thing is, you know, I think those types of home builders, the ones who that build up, you know, all these 200 home communities and just like every home, one after the next, you know, a lot of people like to buy those types of homes because they think, all right, I don't have to deal with an old home, I don't have to deal with defects, I don't have to deal with mold, I don't have to deal with.

And you know, unfortunately, where we see a lot of those communities kind of fall flat a little bit, it tends to be most in the warranty work and in the warranty claims when they close and maybe they're not completely finished and there's, you know, a dozen things that are problem solving.

And then you call up the builder, the builder gets their sub to go out there and the sub's like, oh, yeah, oh, that bow in the floor, that's normal.

Give it six months.

What do you mean it's normal?

I mean, these people, these homeowners are made to feel like they're idiots and that they're just being completely disrespected by these builders and these subs who are trying to pull the wool over their eyes and sell them a false bill of goods.

But yeah, I mean, there's a lot of buyer beware and a lot of, I mean, it's really comes down to being a consumer protection issue in many ways with these contractors.

What?

You know, we try to fight the good fight for those folks down here.

Yeah.

And I think it's a good education.

It's easy on social media.

Find some of those people out.

There's people out there with millions of follows, right.

Jump on of the building inspectors or the construction inspectors on there and take a look what they're seeing in permitted new builds out there.

And it's A rabbit hole you can jump down, but you'll get an education of, of what these guys do and what they can do for you.

And it sounds like a commercial forum, but you really go, oh, wow, they cost that.

And the inspector missed it.

Wow, okay.

And it's a big deal, you know, from, from broken trusses to cracked bathtubs and things like that that are way harder to deal with later down the road.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

It's, it's, you know, it's.

I've got a client who's building a house and, you know, for, for months the builder left the trusses and other wood members just sitting in puddles of water on the property and, you know, is now built, framed the house.

I mean, there is mold all over it.

And, you know, the client and trying to deal with the builder himself.

The builder acknowledged it, they scrubbed a little bleach on some parts of it and that didn't really get it done.

Of course, the builder finally said, you know what, it's a warranty issue, we'll deal with it later.

And the owner's like, what are you talking about?

How are you going to deal with it later?

You're going to build everything else around it and we're going to have to rip it all apart to get back to the.

No, absolutely not.

So we're in a dispute now as a result of that, but yeah, it's a good dispute.

Yeah, yeah, it is.

So anyway, yeah, I mean, it's.

It's a little bit of the wild, wild west sometimes, you know, and, and you know, the more I'm, you know, glad you do what you do because, you know, the more education that we can give to these people out there, you know, the.

Hopefully it raises, you know, the tide, raises all boats.

So hopefully, you know, just.

Yeah.

Increases the, the overall, you know, quality of the construction throughout.

Absolutely.

Well, Andy, we are running out of time.

What is the best place for people out there to find you?

Whether they're a contractor trying to up their game or a homeowner that's like, I'm in knee deep in a mess.

I need to get myself out of it.

Yeah.

So, you know, the name law firm is Wyman Legal Solutions with an S.

And that's our website.

So you can go right to our website and connect with us through there.

We've got a fairly intelligent, you know, chatbot to start you out and get you directed to the right place in our firm.

But otherwise.

561-361-8700, that's our number here at the office.

I'm Andy, and my email address is andyiman legalsolutions with an S@the end.com.

so any of those ways.

Andy, thanks for taking the time today, man.

This is always a great education when we can bring experts like you to help educate everybody out there in the audience.

Thank you, man.

This is a lot of fun.

I appreciate it.

Thanks, man.

I'm Eric G.

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