[00:00:00] I would like to acknowledge the Dharawal people, the Aboriginal people of Australia, whose country I live and work on. I would like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging, and thank them for sharing their cultural knowledge and awareness with us.

[00:00:14]

[00:00:39] Trisha: Hi there everyone. I'm Trisha Carter, an organizational psychologist and explorer of cultural intelligence. I'm on a quest to discover what enables us to see things from different perspectives, especially different cultural perspectives, and why sometimes it's easier than others to experience those moments of awareness.

[00:01:00] The shifts in our thinking.

[00:01:02] As regular listeners know, cultural intelligence CQ is made up of four areas, motivational CQ drive, cognitive CQ knowledge, metacognitive CQ strategy and Behavioral CQ action, and in this

[00:01:18] podcast, we focus on CQ strategy and how our thinking is critical to building our cultural intelligence.

[00:01:28] Today we're going to explore how trust intersects with these capabilities, especially when we're working across cultural differences. My guest today is Andrew Sykes. Author, speaker, and founder of Habits at Work,

[00:01:43] he brings the science of behavioral change into the heart of business performance. Andrew's a lecturer at the Kellogg School of Management where he helps leaders build what he calls trustworthy organizations.

[00:01:57] Those where promises are kept, habits are intentional and teams thrive. I know Andrew through my friend and colleague Hanlie Van Wyk, who regular listeners will remember for our conversation in episode 54, where we talked about the intersection of cultural intelligence and systems thinking to achieve inclusion.

[00:02:20] Hanlie was a co-author with Andrew in the book, the 11th Habit, which I'm hoping will come up in our discussion. And Andrew was

[00:02:29] the audible version of that book. So I'm, I feel like even though I haven't met him before, I'm very familiar with his voice. In today's conversation, we are going to explore the powerful intersection of trust, team performance, and cultural intelligence.

[00:02:45] So how trust is formed, how it can be broken, and how it can be rebuilt. And Andrew brings a beautiful practical lens to this habits that build trust floor by floor. I'm really looking forward to talking about this. Welcome, Andrew.

[00:03:02] Andrew: Trisha what a fantastic opening. I'm excited to be here. I place my full trust in your safe hands.

[00:03:09] Trisha: Ooh.

[00:03:10] I love that

[00:03:11] from the perspective of your knowledge and your skillset.

[00:03:14] It's lovely to have you here. Thank you, Andrew, and thank you Hanlie, for introducing us. Okay. Let's get into it with our standard opening question. So, Andrew, what is a culture other than the culture you grew up in, that you have learned to love and appreciate?

[00:03:31] Andrew: So many, but at the top of my list is the Brazilian culture. I lived there in 2012 for a year, and I've worked. In Brazil, mainly in Sao Paulo for a decade or more. And I love the warmth, the energy, and the contrast with how I grew up and the similarity. So it's a beautiful example of how joy can infuse its way into everything in life.

[00:04:01] Of course, it's a country with problems like many of ours, but I love that culture.

[00:04:05] Trisha: I love the thought of joy infusing a culture. And I've never visited Brazil, so now I want to,

[00:04:12] Andrew: Yes, please do.

[00:04:14] Tell 'em I say hi. I'll be back soon.

[00:04:16] Trisha: Yeah. Okay.

[00:04:18] Anybody in Brazil who would like Andrew and I to be there, just give us a shout.

[00:04:23] Andrew: Exactly. We're available for hire.

[00:04:26] Trisha: Indeed. So, Andrew, can you tell me about a time when you might've experienced a shift you and you suddenly became aware of a new perspective?

[00:04:36] Andrew: Yes, like many shifts that happen over time. It can feel like it happened in a moment, but my shift really did happen, or at least the poignant part of it happened in a moment. It was at the 1995 Rugby World Cup.

[00:04:52] Now the backstory is I grew up in South Africa, perhaps the most systematically racist in country in the time the seventies, eighties, and nineties when I was growing up.

[00:05:02] And so one of my topics that I speak on is how the world around us creates the habits that define us. And I lived in a government structure called apartheid that separated blacks and whites. In a home, in a suburb where there were only white people living and 20 miles away were 6 million black people in Soweto.

[00:05:29] I didn't know they were there. We never saw each other. We lived completely different lives and that infuses a racism. Like the only honest thing I can say is I was born a racist because of who we are. Is a function of our habits, and if our habits are encoded in the world around us, that must be true. But it never occurred to me that's what I was or how I thought. But in that World Cup, which Nelson Mandela had supported with his whole heart, despite the fact that everyone said he shouldn't, South Africa was victorious. It was an awesome day. I'll spare you the details, but I was so overwhelmed. That I sat down in a stadium and I saw for the first time in my life, black men and white men hugging, sharing tears of joy as we celebrated our nation's victory together.

[00:06:23] And in that moment, Nelson Mandela's quote, not the words, but the sentiment hit me, which is. No one is born hating another human being because of the color of their skin. People must learn to hate, and if we can learn to hate, we can be taught to love. 'cause love comes more naturally to the human heart. Like that day I got taught by Nelson Mandela, how to Love, I've spent a long time thinking about how to undo what I thought before, but that's one of those moments where for the first time I saw my prejudice against other cultures. And opened up to a whole new life and a journey like you've been on to explore other cultures and fall in love with them and be generous and kind and awesome.

[00:07:09] Well, I'm working on all of those, but you know, why can't we all love each other? We're just the same silly human beings underneath all of these facades and differences.

[00:07:19] Trisha: Yes, indeed. I'm going to just have to stop and blow my nose. I'm sorry, because that is a little bit emotional. Andrew, did I tell you that I'm actually in New Zealander?

[00:07:29] Andrew: You didn't, but that's awesome news because if there's one country I love 'cause of our common love for rugby, it's Kiwis and New Zealand.

[00:07:39] Trisha: And the moment you started telling that story, of course, I am so dear listeners. To be a New Zealander is almost automatically to be a rugby union lover. Now, I do acknowledge there are some people in New Zealand who don't like rugby, but they are a minority.

[00:07:57] Andrew: Yes, both of them.

[00:07:58] Trisha: It's a little bit like a religion in New Zealand. And yeah, so, the team that South Africa beat in that World Cup final was the All Blacks, which is the New Zealand rugby team.

[00:08:13] And so it is something that I was very aware of.

[00:08:17] And yeah, it's, A long story that we won't necessarily go into.

[00:08:22] But yeah

[00:08:22] if you would like to learn more about it, listeners, I highly re recommend the movie Invictus, which tells a little bit more of the story.

[00:08:33] And now that Andrew has shared his shift, I think that will make that movie even more special to you.

[00:08:39] Andrew: Thank you for asking that.

[00:08:41] Trisha: I love that. Thank you so much for sharing. I think part of that shift, there are elements like you say of love.

[00:08:49] One of the things that's really important as we think about people coming together is trust. And I really love the work that you've done on trust. And you've described trust as being built floor by floor like a skyscraper, which, you know, such a clear analogy, we can all see it when you say that.

[00:09:08] Could you work us through what that means in terms of a team or leadership context?

[00:09:14] Andrew: Yes. Well, the metaphor extends firstly, like a building into the foundations, without which nothing above the surface. That's visible stands or is useful and the foundations of trust are hard to see 'cause they're underground. And what I mean by that is it's a set of skills and behaviors that one can learn through practice that signal that you're trustworthy and that demonstrate that you're trustworthy and you can't choose one or the other.

[00:09:51] If you signal that you're trustworthy, but you're not actually, so you'd be described as a con person, but if you are actually trustworthy but don't have the skills of signaling that you are, you may never get the chance to show that you are. So, there's so much that we, that I didn't know about how much trust is built between people in the milliseconds to minutes when we first meet.

[00:10:17] These micro moments and skills rather than grand gestures. And if you get all of that right, you have a fantastic foundation and if you miss it, you put yourself into what we call a trust hole that can take you months to climb out of.

[00:10:34] All of that is best said in that old saying, you never get a second chance to create a fantastic or high trust first impression.

[00:10:42] And if you do that well, then you can add on layers like making promises. Making cleaner promises. Making promises that are not just clean and clear, but fully responsible and take into account other people's expectations even if they haven't voiced them. And of course, keeping promises. So we think about trust as three pillars.

[00:11:03] Identity, trust formed in the first five minutes, usually

[00:11:07] conversational trust earned with how generous, sincere, and frankly interesting. It occurs for you that I am in a conversation and then behavioral trust or habit trust how I actually perform over time when given the chance to prove that I'm trustworthy.

[00:11:27] And I believe all three of those are necessary, all of them layer on top of each other like flaws. And as Kevin Plank said in a different metaphor, trust is built in drops, but lost in buckets. The building an analogy or metaphor. If there's a floor missing, potentially the whole thing comes crumbling down.

[00:11:47] Trisha: So in those early interactions, the ones what was your descriptor for the first level?

[00:11:55] Andrew: Yes. Your first impression.

[00:11:56] Trisha: Yeah. So what are the behavioral signals that people give, that we give that most reliably build trust?

[00:12:04] Andrew: You might say that they're false signals that people judge each other on because if I'm judging you on anything before you've even opened your mouth, we would label that as prejudice, but everyone does it. And then if I judge you as trustworthy or not, in the first five minutes, you would say, I'm rushing to conclusions jumping, dare I say, but we all do that as well. All the research is clear in, people will form an impression of you based on your social media profile or anything else they can find about you. They'll judge you for whether or not you smile, make eye contact or not, depending on the culture that you're in, whether you have an open body posture, a firm handshake, how you say your name, whether or not you remember their name and use it.

[00:12:53] The generosity of your small talk that people write off, but it's the moments in which done well, you can surface common humanity and really connect deeply with people. And then my favorite part is that inevitable question we all hate. Usually someone like me asks it, let's go round the zoom or room and introduce ourselves and more than any other sin in the area of first impressions.

[00:13:21] When you say name, rank, and serial number, or a resume dump in response to an invitation to introduce yourself, you almost always do yourself a disservice. It's like pulling out a pylon or two. So I think you can do a lot by thinking about how you share who you are and where you come from in a way that reveals why you do what you do, why you care about what you care about.

[00:13:50] More than what makes you credible or your wonderful career track record. And the reason I think that's true is when we meet someone, no matter who they are, we are asking two questions. Who are you? The question of character and what do you want? The question of motive. So if you don't answer those two questions, when you introduce yourself, someone will do it for you and that probably won't serve you.

[00:14:17] Trisha: So how then. Does that hold up when teams span cultures? And if you like, the unwritten rules of culture are a little bit different about how you should be addressed or, you know, the titles we should use. I mean, I haven't used your title in terms of your qualifications.

[00:14:38] You know, I haven't given those signals, which would be important in some cultures.

[00:14:43] And so how do we. You know, I'm anticipating that it becomes that much harder to build trust because of the culture's impact. When teams are spanning a culture? How can we, how can we do this well?

[00:14:57] Andrew: Now I think the first thing to acknowledge is there are many traps and a lack of self-awareness, or a lack of curiosity or a lack of care.

[00:15:08] We'll have a step into some of these traps. As it turns out, what people really care about, or rather should I say, what people really trust is human beings who are curious, who care about other people and who make an effort.

[00:15:27] So I would say as many traps as there are interculturally, there are opportunities to win extraordinary levels of trust. By demonstrating you've taken the time to research how things are done in Poland or in the Czech Republic or in New Zealand, and taken the time to think that, well, maybe you are of New Zealand descent, but you're now living in Australia, and all of the other things that make

[00:15:56] you, and then to graciously make your best effort to take into account cultural norms.

[00:16:04] Signal that you're trying by saying so frankly, ask permission in advance for any failures you make. 'cause I don't think many people want to see you fail. And so you might say, you know, I am from South Africa. I have not worked in Australia recently. I'm committed to being respectful of all the norms and the ways you like to be treated.

[00:16:30] So may I ask, do you prefer titles or not? Do you want me to call you by your first name or not? And you can simply ask. I mean, I've not had many people say no, Andrew, but I do like to say, I've done my research and this is what I understand, but each human is unique. So I don't know that many people who have been born and lived in the same house and are still working from it.

[00:16:50] Most people have multiple influences on their current way of being. How can we be expected to get that right? but you Can have the grace and the courage to say, help me be the way that you would like me to be. That serves you. And the mindset I try and hold is, can I show up today in a way that has the person I meet or the people I meet, go home to their spouses or kids and say It was a gift to meet Andrew today.

[00:17:23] Not like walking through the world thinking you're God's gift to humanity, the exact opposite. How can I choose a way of being and a set of manners really that allows someone else to feel like it was fun and interesting to me?

[00:17:38] Trisha: And that would transcend the cultures.

[00:17:42] Andrew: I think so because when that's happened to me, my, my feeling is. This person is really trying. They're doing so graciously. They've made an effort. They're curious. I mean, the word I use for that kind of human is lovely and I trust lovely people. Not only, but

[00:18:01] it's a good character trait in the realm of trust.

[00:18:04] Trisha: Your question in terms of asking people how they would like to be referred to, or acknowledging who they might be is a great way for just sort of establishing a recognition of who they are and acknowledging where they exist in their culture. So I can sort of see that pattern, you know, would really support someone even if you are. Next question is perhaps not exactly appropriate to their culture. So you've acknowledged who they are and then asked them how they might prefer to be dealt with, which I think sounds lovely. Yeah.

[00:18:38] Andrew: and

[00:18:38] I also want to emphasize, I don't think you can make it other people's job to help you be culturally sensitive by just asking all the questions. I do think you need to do your homework and show up and demonstrate you've done a lot of work, then you'll be given enormous grace.

[00:18:55] Trisha: Yeah. And listeners, we would say

[00:18:57] that's where CQ knowledge comes in and recognizing, for example

[00:19:01] that in a high power distance culture, you might want to use the

[00:19:05] the formal titles because that would make people feel that you are speaking appropriately to them. And yet, as Andrew says, they may come from a very different heart space, and so they may immediately ask you to call them by their first name.

[00:19:20] That then needs you to be sitting in that space where you are open and you are thinking, and you are ready to shift just in the same way that they are. So I think, have you seen where trust has broken down?

[00:19:36] And I'm thinking about, you know, maybe mismatched experiences or norms that aren't spoken or just people not reaching people in the right way.

[00:19:47] Andrew: I see it all the time. I have the privilege of leading courses. That span the globe, and we have people from maybe 20 to 30 countries on a given workshop and they're on the same team. Often yet, trust is absent, or in fact even negative, but you can trust someone to do the wrong thing or I knew you would do

[00:20:10] that kind of sentiment.

[00:20:12] So it can get really dark and I think it is all at the base of it, diagnosed as this gap. The gap between what I expected you to do and what you said you would do, that one harms us more than the gap between what you said you would do and what you actually did in the end.

[00:20:35] So mostly, you know, we say we trust someone who does what they say they're gonna do.

[00:20:41] They keep their promises. That's obvious. Now either you are really unreliable, in which case you've got work to do. But even in teams where people mostly, and no one's perfect, mostly do what they say they're going to do, there's a trust problem and that exists because when you say you're gonna do X, given your culture, given your background, and given what you understood yourself to have meant by x.

[00:21:12] I'm expecting you to do X plus Y. Maybe I'm expecting you to give me a report plus call me, sir. And that may be a little thing, and the expectations may be huge, but the unfairness of humanity is we'll judge each other really harshly for not meeting our expectations, even though we haven't shared them.

[00:21:35] And anyone who's had that with a, you know, a spouse or a partner where you're expected to read each other's minds. I have to tell you that I would love you to do this for me then you do it. It doesn't count anymore. It's ridiculous what we do to each other. So I do think these are all examples of assumptions, but more correctly, I think understood as gaps between expectations and what people said they would do and then did or didn't do.

[00:22:03] It's that expectation gap that kills us, and I believe that insight is both. Devastating. Annoying and frustrating, but also a secret weapon if you care to be the most trustworthy person, you know? 'cause it allows you to simply ask someone, Trisha, here's my promise, but what else do you trust me to do?

[00:22:26] Or, what else do you expect me to do? And maybe I could offer you some examples of what others have expected from me in the past and have a conversation so that my expectations and. What I, or your expectations and what I promised become the same thing in the end. And that's as small as how we greet each other, how you want me to lead a meeting, just how you want me to show up for you and vice versa.

[00:22:51] And I don't see that conversation happening in companies or between humans very much at all.

[00:22:56] Trisha: Yeah. absolutely. And thinking about you are bringing those people together, as you say, from around the world and they're working together and maybe

[00:23:04] not doing it so well.

[00:23:05] In cultural intelligence research, we talk about cultural metacognition, which is described as. CQ strategy. So that breaks down into some sub dimensions.

[00:23:16] There's planning, there's awareness, and there's checking. And it is seen in some of the research as being important for building trust across cultures. So that's really about the thinking that people do, about what they know. So how does this finding fit in with your own work on designing trustworthy habits?

[00:23:41] Andrew: It's very aligned. We use slightly different language, but how would connect it to your planning awareness and checking is if you are not being intentional about building high trust or trust building skills and habits, then you are signing up for being in a trust hole.

[00:24:01] So you might say a failure to plan is a plan to failure.

[00:24:06] I didn't say that. I forget who did, but someone wiser than I. So that's very important. Trust is a skill. It is not a trait. And the skills of being judged as trustworthy, the skills of creating trust through conversations and the skills of high trust habits are different and all are important. They all take planning, practice, coaching, self-awareness is your second point. And I think the work of mindset, which is for me, a form of awareness or the stories you tell yourself about yourself makes such a difference. And my favorite in the world of trust is my promise in the world is other people's expectations. And when people hear that, they're like, Andrew, you letting other people dictate your life, run your life.

[00:24:57] No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm still fully in control, but I don't lie to myself that other people will judge me based on what I promised. They'll judge me on their expectations. Therefore, from their point of view, my promise is their expectations, and if I don't like that gap, I can do something about it.

[00:25:17] And that awareness created for me a total shift in how I think about. The gift of allowing other people to trust me so I can give them the real gifts that I've worked hard at having available. And then the checking part is, well, trustworthiness isn't something I think about myself. It's something other people think about me.

[00:25:41] And if you ask people, do you trust me? Don't expect them to say no. 'cause that's an uncomfortable thing to say. So you do have to with awareness, think about how might I check for evidence that people trust me? Do they call me first? Do they give me advantages? The book I'm writing is called The Trust Advantage.

[00:26:03] It's the idea that when people trust you, they will give you advantages. If they're not giving you advantages, you either haven't asked, so ask, or they don't trust you. I don't know any other explanation. So if you're not checking, you're not sure about whether anyone trusts you, and that is a very horrible place to find yourself in life.

[00:26:25] Trisha: So how do you recommend then that we approach the situation? Where that trust isn't there, where we're not getting the advantages. So we need to do some of that repair you spoke about. And especially if there are, you know, different cultures and so different expectations around apologies or acknowledgement or saving face and those things.

[00:26:46] Andrew: Yes, and I think those nuances are the headline, but at the bottom of it, I'd also believe this to be true, that no culture in the world. And no human in the world except bullies want you to grovel and apologize because you feel bad. They want you to care about the impact of your broken promise from their point of view.

[00:27:15] They want you to fix the impact or the mess that your broken promise has created, and they want to see you have character in the moment of your failure. So that they know they can count on you next time. So I recommend instead of saying, oh, I'm so sorry I'm late. And then make up an excuse like the traffic was bad.

[00:27:36] And I always say the difference between reasons and excuses is I have reasons you have excuses. So leading with an apology means you're apologizing for how you feel. Following it with excuses tells you don't really take ownership of it. And then. Accepting. When people say, oh, it's not a big deal, when they don't really mean it is a signal that you're tone deaf and that's untrustworthy.

[00:28:00] So what I recommend instead is saying, here's what happened. No excuses, no reasons. I assume, or I guess the impact on you, Trisha, is you're annoyed or you're late with your own deadline. Whatever you see as the impact. But then ask, may I ask, what's the impact on you? And people will often deflect and say, it's no big deal, or I don't know.

[00:28:24] Or they may even be angry, but that anger won't go away. So really be patient with allowing people time to express what the hurt is. And then when you hear that, go fix it or

[00:28:39] commit to fix it and then do it. Or at least be honest that you won't or you can't. Some eggs can't be unscrambled.

[00:28:48] Now you have the data.

[00:28:49] Which an apology can be authentic. 'cause I can say, Trisha may, I apologize for the impact, which is what you care about, rather than apologizing because I feel bad. So I don't say, don't apologize. Just don't lead with it for the wrong reasons. End with it and demonstrate your character in the meantime. And what I found is a, an approach like that can often have you be more trusted.

[00:29:15] Than you were before the failure. 'cause now someone else has data on not only who you are as a human in the worst of times, but what they can count on you for when things go wrong, even if you cause them. And I don't know, I trust people who make mistakes and then take responsibility for them more than the people who tell me they never make mistakes.

[00:29:37] Trisha: I think the people who you made the point about impact, the impact that your behavior

[00:29:43] had or the what you'd done?

[00:29:45] I think so often people try to excuse the impact with their intent. You know, I didn't mean to, or, you know, yeah, you may not have, but the impact is still valid and people focusing on the impact.

[00:29:58] So yeah. That's very powerful. And that would cut across. Cultural differences because the impact would be something that people would recognize.

[00:30:07] You often speak in your work about systems that embed trust into the culture of teams. Which is one of the things we were discussing with Hanlie about systems within teams, within organizations.

[00:30:23] So what does that look like from a practical sense and you know, is there some flexibility needed if the teams are more diverse?

[00:30:33] Andrew: I think flexibility isn't, is in and of itself a trustworthy skill. So yes, and I would distinguish that we need both trust and trustworthiness. One is the judgment that you're worthy of trust. The other is the generous gift. To trust another person, and they're related, but they're different phenomena. And I think you need both in an organization.

[00:30:58] And for what it's worth, I believe that giving trust appropriately is itself a skill. There are those who trust too easily. We call them naive. There are those who don't trust at all. We call them skeptical. Neither of them optimize for the benefits of choosing whom to trust for what and how. But your question around systems themselves.

[00:31:21] As Hanlie would tell you better than I could. Our habits are encoded in the systems, the physical spaces, the people, and our mindsets that make up the context of our work environment or our lifetimes. So how I think about it is, number one, just teach everybody and have them practice the skills that the research says.

[00:31:44] Build trust. They're not that hard. They're not that complicated. They're not even that much of a shift in thinking, but they aren't common practice, and that's the point. So there are very easy to learn ways of behaving, of making promises, of having conversations that can allow you to build trust as quickly as it's possible, and indeed to earn it in the end.

[00:32:10] So I would train people. Train leaders. I would build it into the way we run meetings, the way we interact with clients, the promises we make to clients. Instead of saying, we're perfect, it'll work all the time. Say we have a nine out of 10 track record,

[00:32:27] one out of 10 times we fail. When that happens, here is what you can count on us to do and how we will behave.

[00:32:35] I'm much more impressed by someone who tells me how they'll handle it when there's a break. Rather than someone who promises me, things will never go wrong.

[00:32:44] They're either better people than me, or they're like the rest of us. We make mistakes. So there's a lot that goes into it from how you brand yourself, how you make a promise, how you employ people, how you sell, how you lead.

[00:32:58] And when you put all that together, what I've found is high trust companies move faster and are more innovative. They keep good people who stay engaged and they cost less, and prospects buy more faster, they stay longer, even when you're more expensive and they willingly refer you, and all of that creates an enormous trust advantage. But I've not found many companies that are serious about owning that most trustworthy, competitive mountaintop.

[00:33:36] There is a fastest, cheapest, and oldest, a most tech savvy company, every sector who owns the most trustworthy.

[00:33:46] I think if you're not trying to own it, you're missing an opportunity. And if you're not

[00:33:51] thinking about how it translates into economic benefit, you're just leaving a trust advantage on the table.

[00:33:57] Trisha: And you can see how that benefit would play out from both internal, within the organization, say for employee engagement or

[00:34:06] attraction and retention.

[00:34:08] All of those aspects as well as to the clients or the customers, as you're saying.

[00:34:13] Andrew: Absolutely.

[00:34:14] Trisha: Yeah. That's quite fascinating. One of the things we've started talking about so much more these days, and I've had you know, some conversations with previous guests as well, about is the impact of AI on workplaces.

[00:34:27] How do you think AI is impacting or will impact trust in workplaces?

[00:34:35] Andrew: I think that AI has already demonstrated through its use in fake. Scams and all of what we see happening. Crime perpetrated through the sophisticated use of ai. Everyone is rightly more skeptical, more careful, more untrusting,

[00:34:55] and I believe

[00:34:56] that's costing society and business enormously. You can complain about its existence.

[00:35:03] I'm not gonna stop it, nor do I want to deny the wonderful benefits of ai. I'm more interested in what do we do about it as human beings? And I think there are two big questions. How might we ensure alignment and trust in AI technology itself and what it does for the world so that it is not dangerous, but supportive to society?

[00:35:26] That's a whole topic on its own. I think the other one is this view and my particular view of the future. I'm often wrong. Seldom am I lacking confidence. So I'll tell you what it's is for. What it's worth is that in a world where we can't trust that you are actually real Trisha, you could be a video avatar right now, when I can't trust that the premium on face-to-face verification is gonna go up and the premium on the skills that actual humans have that demonstrates I am human, not just human, but the most trustworthy human.

[00:36:06] Will be at an enormous premium, and I don't know what AI will take over in terms of the job functions. It can do better than us at a thousand times the speed, but I have a view that the super human skillset of being a trustworthy, authentic, genuine, caring, loving, curious human being. Will at least be a valued skill for our lifetimes, and I believe our children's.

[00:36:36] Trisha: I love that. And

[00:36:37] that is a very positive outlook. I appreciate it greatly. So we are coming to the end of our time, so I'm. Interested in, I guess, what advice would you give someone who's hoping to follow in your footsteps and become skilled at building trust?

[00:36:56] Andrew: Advice piece number one would be, listen to your podcast because I happen to think you're bringing gems that you may not have labeled as trust building, but intercultural IQ or awareness and meta, these metacognitive skills and your planning, awareness and checking framework are built on the idea of trustworthiness as a set of skills.

[00:37:21] So that's number one. Number two, I do think that learning about trust, developing the skills of trust, being open to. The idea that maybe we've got a lot of it wrong is your access to enormous learning. And for what it's worth, I'm so ruthlessly interested in trust because of the many times in my life where I failed people that I love and where I didn't deliver on promises, or I did, but it didn't go well for other reasons that flummoxed me.

[00:37:55] So, you know,

[00:37:56] I don't claim to be perfect by a long way. In fact, I would say my path, which I don't recommend was doing it wrong. All the ways you can imagine, and then wanting to do better in life. So that is a pathway, but I recommend the shortcut and if anyone's interested

[00:38:14] we offer a trust advantage leadership cohort starting in January.

[00:38:19] So that's a lovely opportunity to learn 20 years of research in a year flat.

[00:38:25] Trisha: Okay, so that goes for a year?

[00:38:27] Andrew: It does some people come back for the second year to coach in the program or the third year to run practice sessions or eventually

[00:38:33] Trisha: lovely.

[00:38:34] Andrew: to be a facilitator.

[00:38:35] Trisha: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So that's something people can do next year. In the meantime, how can people follow up with you to learn more about your work?

[00:38:45] Andrew: Yes, I love connecting on linkedIn, so please look me up there. Andrew Sykes at Habits At Work or look at our various websites.

[00:38:52] Habits at work. A.T.W.O.R.K. dot com Is our main business site. I'm a professional speaker. Andrew sykes.com is where I talk about what I talk about. Our executive experiences are at Cerne Life, C-E-R-E-N-E, life, and those are really for people looking to do exotic retreats that are the genesis of becoming unrecognizable to ourselves in all the best ways.

[00:39:24] It's

[00:39:25] Trisha: amazing.

[00:39:26] Andrew: the deep work of inner trust.

[00:39:28] Trisha: I was going to say, that's another whole topic. Yeah, let's have a retreat to do the deep work.

[00:39:32] We will put all of those links in the show notes and if you want to, I guess, immerse yourself a little bit on Andrew's speaker website, he also has some YouTube links that you can go to and see him present, which, oh, and you didn't mention books, Andrew.

[00:39:50] Andrew: Yes. My first book with Hanlie is called The 11th Habit. It's the idea that we only get around at the 11th hour to the habits that really matter most to our health, happiness, and financial security. So it's a guidebook for people and leaders to build companies that leave us healthy, healthier, happier, and more financially secure every day instead of the opposite.

[00:40:15] I'm actually just publishing my first book of poetry

[00:40:18] with an artist who's the husband. of Hanlie

[00:40:23] is another for us.

[00:40:25] But my second business book is at the beginning of a two year cycle. It's called the Trust Advantage, and I'm inviting people to come on the journey with me. So I have a newsletter that people sign up for that where

[00:40:37] we talk about the research we're doing, the chapters we writing, and the path to the book's release late 2027.

[00:40:45] Trisha: Oh, that's a lovely way to do it, isn't it?

[00:40:47] Andrew: Yeah. Well, you know, how do you know it's not an AI written book?

[00:40:51] Trisha: oh.

[00:40:52] Andrew: You're part of the journey of see how we write it and do it badly and then figure it out and who we interview and why, and what we learn along the way.

[00:40:59] Trisha: Yeah.

[00:41:00] And you'll just build, you know, so much more

[00:41:03] information examples. You'll collect the research and you'll get feedback. It'll be wonderful. What a great process.

[00:41:11] Andrew: And back to your point, how can you expect to be. The most trustworthy person if you're not open to learning how everyone else thinks about trust. So why would I wanna write the book on my own when I can write it with curious, interested fellow travelers on the climb to mount trustworthy?

[00:41:31] Trisha: That's fantastic. I love it. Okay. I might need to sign up for that newsletter as well.

[00:41:37] Andrew: Yes, and I hope you'll one day accept my invitation to join me on my upcoming podcast on the Trust Advantage.

[00:41:44] Trisha: Oh, I would love to. That would be fantastic. Yeah.

[00:41:47] Andrew: Thank you.

[00:41:48] Trisha: Andrew, in conclusion, as you look at your life and the people you've worked with, your family and community, and as you look at the future, what are you hoping for?

[00:41:59] Andrew: It's trite to say, but what my life is for and what I hope for the future is peace

[00:42:07] Trisha: Mm. globally with my kids and family and everywhere in between. And I don't just mean, you know, peace where there's no conflict. 'cause conflict can be healthy, but there's a healthy way to have conflict. I'm very inspired by Aristotle's concept of eudaimonia,

[00:42:26] Andrew: this good spirit fulfilled life.

[00:42:28] And I believe that if every human on the planet is continually working on any skill in the service of other people. Not only is it a fulfilling life, but who would've the time, the energy, or the motive for hate and abuse and war? So why don't we just all level up together, have each other's backs, create a beautiful planet.

[00:42:49] I mean, look at the awesome stuff we've created. Why would we throw that away when we could do better?

[00:42:54] Trisha: I love that. Thank you so much, and thank you for giving us your time and wisdom today. You greatly appreciate it.

[00:43:02] Andrew: Well, this was one of the best prepared podcasts I've ever been on. Thank you for demonstrating that you care and that you are so trustworthy.

[00:43:12] Trisha: Thank you Andrew, and thank you listeners for being with us on this learning journey. If you want to continue on that journey, please make sure that you have pushed subscribe or follow so that you are joining us next week for the next episode of the Shift.