What's going on, everybody?

Hey, everybody.

How are we doing today?

I am Derek.

And I'm Matt.

And today we have a very special guest.

This is Christian Strait.

And he is a special guest because he has been through some stuff we're gonna get into today when it comes to school shootings.

And not only that, but we'll probably bring up at least one point, Charlie Kirk and what's happened to him.

It's a week after last time when we were recording our episode, we actually found out he had passed away during the episode.

So we'll be able to talk about that a little bit today in the aftermath.

But that is what we're looking forward to today with an eyewitness to a pretty crazy scene from his past.

Yeah, let's do like a.

Let's talk about the Charlie Kirk stuff.

Up front and do it up front.

Yeah, let's do it up front.

Let's do it up front.

Because I want to focus on him and his story for the latter.

Well, I mean, I was going to tie it in, but.

Okay, okay, okay.

Well, we can still tie it in.

Well, okay.

So, I mean, so Charlie Kirk.

So as many of you probably already know, especially the people that watch the show, you know, Charlie Kirk was assassinated at this point.

When you see this, it'll be two Wednesdays ago.

And it's kind of a crazy scene of just.

They started out for them like any other day where Charlie Kirk was doing his thing where he was gonna come lay his truth bombs, respectfully, of course, and a young man decided to perch himself up and take his shot.

And he did.

And unfortunately, that was the end of that.

It's been a crazy week with both sides of the aisle, well, responding in their different ways, some from what we'll call the non conservative side, because Charlie Kirk was known as a known conservative, did respond in a way of saying this should never have happened.

And I think that that was an amazing response for many that were willing to put aside their differences with Charlie Kirk and maybe even the messages that he gave and embrace the fact that something that this should never have happened.

Yeah, I think this was more of a religious hit than a political hit.

Yeah, it felt like that.

I mean, I really do believe it.

I believe that it was 100% that.

And it's just one of those things that is tragic.

But at the same time, the voice of the conservative side of the aisle is now perked up a little bit.

We're seeing more backbone in the conservative side of the aisle, I think, than we have In a while.

Yeah.

Well, you know, when you have someone who's such a strong voice, who's willing to stand unapologetically for the truth that they believe in, and then they're silenced in the manner that he.

You have people that are willing to step up.

And I think a large part of that is because they don't want to feel like the bullet wins, that the person behind the rifle was able to silence the movement.

If you don't stand up at that point and go, no, we're not going to be silenced, then it does feel defeating.

And I think it's very honoring to the kind of person that Charlie Kirk was and, and his work to be able to step into the shoes.

I heard, of all people, Ben Shapiro said something I thought was really strong.

He said, in a manner of words, that he was going to pick up the.

Or we were going to pick up the bloody microphone right where he dropped it and pick it right back up and get back into the mission.

I think that's a really strong imagery to be using for what the movement wants to do.

A lot of people feel like there's going to be an awakening of people that are willing to stand up for this kind of truth now.

Yeah, I totally see that.

All the responses from at least the prominent, like, I guess, better known figures has been right alongside that.

Whether they agree with each other or not.

There's this solidarity in that.

And honestly, I was blown away by the crazy amount of people who were celebrating it.

Yeah, that was terrible.

The sickness of those people.

Like, just to be, to be frank, I definitely don't condone that.

Regardless of what you say, your beliefs are, in fact, for all those who are facing repercussions for it, I think you should.

If you're losing your job because you celebrated somebody getting murdered, you should.

So you know it.

I will say this though, okay?

We can look at those kinds of things going on, you know.

But there was something even greater this past Sunday.

This is.

This is completely true.

Across the nation, actually, I didn't even look at the world figures, but no, across the nation, on average, church attendances were up dramatically in some places.

Some people were going to church for the first time because of what happened to Charlie Kirk.

Some were going back to church for the first time in years.

But church attendances were up around the country in response to this.

Now we can look at all the negative things that are happening.

Sure, we can look at the back and forth, we can look at all the other stuff, but.

But let's not Miss what God was doing in this.

He still took something that was terrible and something amazing was happening for it.

And I think, you know, I didn't know Charlie Kirk personally, but I would think that if he could, maybe he can see this happening where people are going to church.

I think that is a reward in itself, you know, because if that resulted in one, two, who knows, many people being saved, you know, turning their life over to Jesus, man, that's enough.

Yeah, definitely.

I definitely think that it was enough just to hear when he opened his eyes.

Well done.

You know, I mean, like, honestly, like, at that point, like, I don't think any of the rest of this matters at that point, you know.

So from what I understand, one of.

The last things he was talking about prior to the gunshot was he did preach the gospel that day.

Yeah.

So, I mean, I don't know that.

He did any rallies without doing that.

In fact, it was littered throughout every single one of anything I've seen him.

I understand that.

I'm not saying anything about that.

I'm just saying that it already had happened.

So one of his last acts in this world was to preach the gospel.

I think that is pretty amazing.

I will say this.

So it did rattle some people.

I have some students that are accepting the call to ministry in different ways, and it rattled them a little bit.

One it was very scary.

Another one it was rattling, yet kind of reinforcing that we need.

You know, when evil shows its face to that kind of capacity and you see the need the world has, it can solidify your answering the call.

Yeah.

And I think that for one of my students, I think that was the case for that person.

You know, these kind of things, you're going to have all kinds of different reactions.

But I'm just trying.

I like focusing on the positive things that I'm seeing here.

With more people going to church, that's pretty amazing.

I understand that and I agree.

We do need to focus on the positive as well.

But let's not neglect the.

The righteous anger that comes from this.

Right?

Well, yeah, it's not okay to.

Especially in a nation where we're supposed to have free speech and be able to do so things.

Things that Charlie Kirk was doing first.

For you to not agree with the things he's saying, you have every right to not agree.

Right for you to not like what he has to say, you have every right not to like it 100%.

But it's the same as not liking a television show.

Just turn it off if you don't like what he's have to say, then don't tune in, you know, or.

Or challenge him in the proper way, the way he would want to, you know, where, where that's the kind of forum where he's like, he would invite you to come and say your piece, Right.

But to just silence him because you don't like what that is.

That's just.

It's not right in any sense at all.

And you know, what's the worst for me, you know, is that not only did you silence him, but you stole a husband and you stole a father from two little children.

One, the little girl may or may not remember much of her father outside of the story she's going to be told for the rest of her life.

And the son is going to have no memory of him prior to all the stories.

So he will be legend marred by death.

But, you know, they don't get the opportunity to be raised by the kind of dad that he was set out to be.

And from what I understand, he was off to a great start.

So it's a shame.

It really is.

And you know, his children were there, his wife were there during that day in the fear of it, you know, the kids want to go to their dad.

They can't even go to their dad because it's, you know, it's their dad.

Right.

And so, yeah, it's really hard to think about the.

The speech that his wife gave was absolutely incredible.

Like.

Yeah, to be able to even speak in that manner at that point is just.

I was surprised how composed she was.

That's what I mean.

Yeah, it's it that.

I can't imagine that at all.

But I'll tell you what, that's a woman to be feared.

Well, I mean, you have someone who was, you know, but it shows you something.

I will say this.

When it comes to, you know, if God has a design for different people, like, for instance, when it comes to.

I believe that my wife was completely made for me.

She is my rib.

She fits me like no other person on the planet could.

That being said, if that was the same formula for Charlie Kirk.

Charlie Kirk was a strong voice in this world.

It would make sense that he impaired someone who complimented him in such a way.

And so, yeah, I mean, she pulled it together.

She got.

She was amazing.

And she's got so much in front of her.

So much in front of.

But you know what?

I'll tell you what.

Something else that I was really.

I don't know if I want to use the word impressed.

Not impressed.

Something I was respectful of was the shooter's father.

The shooter's father turned him in.

We know that.

And that's got to be first off, one of the hardest things you can do.

I mean, I'm a father of five.

I can't imagine.

I don't want to ever think about what that would be.

But he knew that what was right needed to come before, you know, anything else.

Not only that, but I also heard that some people were trying to donate money to him and he donated that back.

He just took it all and gave it to Charlie Kirk.

There was a $100,000 reward for the finding or whatever of the shooter, and he rejected that.

There was also the fact that he refused to pay for any kind of legal support for his son.

Oh, yeah, that too.

And he resigned from the police service that he was, I think, his deputy.

He was a sheriff's deputy.

I think I could be wrong, but.

Well, you know, I just think the guy has shown.

It's got to be.

Well, I tell you what, it honors what Charlie stood for in a lot of ways.

It actually not just honors Charlie.

It honors what the movement meant.

The truth of the gospel, the truth of what was trying to be accomplished.

That, you know, it's not about these other things.

It's not about covering things up.

It's about letting the truth have its day.

And, you know, his father did just that.

And I can't imagine what he's going through right now.

It's gotta be so hard.

I mean, I feel like he's shown that he knows what he needed to do in that situation to be able to know what to do and still go through with it.

Okay, is.

That's so tough, man.

I can't imagine what that was like.

And honestly, there's a lot of things.

And you know, people.

People will probably dismiss it, maybe even just because it's coming out of my mouth, but I truly think that behind a lot of these shootings and school shootings and everything else is demonic possession.

And there's not a lot of people that are willing to readily say that in this country these days.

And I truly believe that that's the.

Case stemmed in confusion, I believe.

Say what it's all stemmed in severe, severe confusion about what's good and what's bad and what's happening, what is valuable, what is cheap, to the point where life becomes so cheap to somebody that they think they can take it.

You know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

When your compassion is non existent and yeah, the content that you can have for another person that you don't even.

You're not even willing to see them as a person.

You're not even.

You know, to lack compassion is to trivialize love, almost like gambling trivializes money.

Someone so devoid of compassion to do that has brought life to the.

I mean, I don't even know the meaning of nothing.

A fraction of what it actually is when it's the most important thing in the world, life and love, you know?

Yeah, for sure.

And, I mean, obviously, everybody deals with these kinds of things differently.

I mean, I was struggling with it.

I've been struggling with it all week.

I felt a morning in my heart.

Well, twice over.

First when I found out that he was shot and then doubled when it.

Right.

You know, when I found out he had passed away.

You know, you hope that when you hear something like that happens, that they're gonna pull through and, you know, almost like it's not exactly the same example at all, but when the thing happened with Donald Trump, you know, when they got him in the ear, it's like, okay, you don't know what happens, and you're just hoping everything's gonna be okay.

And then you find out they're okay.

You're like, oh, thank goodness.

You know, it's a tragic.

Yes.

Does it maybe strengthen the resolve?

Possibly.

But then you find out, no, this one, no other way to put it, hit its mark and he's gone.

And so that's.

That's.

That's.

It's bad enough that the attempts.

It's.

But when it happens, when it actually happens, and to think about it, I remember thinking, wow, he just became a martyr.

That's one of the first things that went through my head.

And I went back and actually watched last week's podcast, especially because I was editing it, but I was watching it, and I watched myself look at my phone and see it.

And then I could see myself mulling it over.

And then he was talking, and I was kind of letting him go.

And then I decided to bring it up, and it just.

And then I saw myself get silent again because I'm sitting there struggling with it.

It's like sucking the life out of the room.

Yeah.

It started to feel.

You know, I felt that.

I felt that as well.

Man.

When I just.

The news of him getting shot, and it's just, my heart's broken.

And then, just like you're saying, when it was finalized, it was.

I was sad.

But then, you know, you actually cheered me up about it because you told me about how he was quoting Corinthians or something like that.

And so I'm thinking he's out there doing what he loves, you know, as far as we understand, that's what he really loved is, you know, influencing the youth.

And then in the blink of an eye, he's with the father, you know.

Yeah.

Like, I mean, yeah.

But, man, I don't know.

Like, I struggled with the mourning process for quite a bit, but it was more the anger that's now, like, come from it.

And this week, and really today, I started getting a little bit of closure.

I wrote a song, like, that's how I've been processing my feelings, my emotions lately.

And.

And Shameless Plug.

Toss it out there on my Facebook page.

It's the only place you can find.

It's on the Facebook page, but.

And on the Breath and Bone.

It's my band, whatever artist name.

Breath and Bone page come in all platforms.

I'm not gonna share it.

I'm not gonna share it to the truth response page just simply because it's like, mmm, yeah, you know, personal views versus church views.

I don't wanna mix all that stuff up.

That's smart.

That's very smart.

But, I mean, I'll die on that hill.

Yeah.

For me, I wasn't doing that, just trying to take it in context.

I understand the anger, I understand different people's reactions, but I tend to take a step back and just start wondering about how I need to go forward.

So one of the reasons that made it.

It made it easy to just kind of jump right into that this time is because when I found out I had not only my wife texting me, but one of my students text me at the same time that he had passed away.

And I immediately knew, like, I'm going to be dealing with this, but other people are.

And I'm a pastor, so.

I got.

Work to do now.

I got to be able to speak into this and then to talk to some of my other students, like I said before, later that night and into the next day and stuff like that, and.

All right, well, how can we think about it?

How can we frame this?

Not in a way to try to manipulate it, but just so that they can to help process things.

So it's just kind of one of those things where I take a step back from it and just start looking into, okay, how can God use this through me?

How is God using this in the world?

How can we encourage people in this time and be empathetic to the anger and the other feelings?

But how can we guide forward?

Is really what it is.

Yep.

That being said, I definitely say pray for all the families that are connected to this and the other shootings that have happened in the.

Not just shootings, but the other acts of violence that have come out just recently.

Just pray for the families and the people involved.

I mean, everybody needs Jesus, and the world would be better off even if people were just practicing what Jesus taught, even if they didn't decide to subscribe.

Right.

But, you know, rather just doing the things that he taught.

Like, man, it'd be a better place.

So just be praying for them and know it's not necessarily the happiest episode, but it's real.

Right?

It's real and it's raw, and that's what we're also about.

So buckle up.

It's gonna be a podcast.

And welcome to the Truth Respons.

Sa.

All right, Father, thank you for.

For today.

Thank you for our voice, thank you for our guests and for everybody that is tuning in to hear what we have to say.

And it's a blessing from you to have people that we can minister to through something as simple as a podcast.

Father, we just help you.

We want you to help us to just continue to be that solid voice for you and guide our conversation and our hearts and our minds in this so that we can bring truth in a good way and maybe even bring some healing and perspective to people that otherwise wouldn't have had.

So.

But, yep, be with us today and help us to be the best reflections of you.

In Jesus name.

Amen.

Amen.

All right, so we have, once again, Christian straight with us.

And he.

Why don't you tell the audience, well, what school you went to?

And the event says.

We haven't even mentioned that yet.

Right.

So I attended Florida State University, and I was unfortunately enrolled and in class when the.

The spring shooting happened.

I was in the building next to the student union where the shooting took place.

So it was a very serious situation for me.

All right.

Okay, so tell me, if you will, like.

So before the accident, what was life like on campus?

Oh, you know, it's just everyone's.

It's same old, I guess, for, you know, campus is packed, jam packed, man.

Students everywhere.

I mean, I was on my way out the door, so it's, you know, all the freshmen coming in, running around, and it's not what I was used to when I first got there.

You know, I arrived there during COVID year.

Campus was dead empty.

And so it was very nice to have a few years of just everyone out and about, you Know a lot of life.

Yes, absolutely.

Right on.

All right, cool.

So now, the day of the shooting, you had.

You had kind of set the scene for me.

You talked to me about this before, so set the scene for the listeners.

What was it like?

You know, normal day.

What was your day like?

So normally I would be skipping this class is the interesting part.

You know, I'd sleep in a lot, or, you know, I do stupid stuff and end up sleeping in.

And that morning, I woke up extra early.

I was excited, man.

I was like, I'm on top of my A game today.

I had just written a grant proposal for one of my classes the night before.

So I'm like, let's go.

Like, I got my work done.

I was ready to go to class, man.

I was up way earlier than I normally was at that time.

What class were you going to?

I was heading to this class called the Jewish Tradition.

The Jewish Tradition.

The Jewish Tradition.

It wasn't in the religion building for some reason.

It was in the finance hall.

Around what time was it that everything happened?

So everything happened around, basically, noon on the dot, right around there.

My class started at 11:35.

Okay, so you said something about when they looked back at when the guy would have arrived.

You said you were around the same time.

We would have probably been parking in the same parking lot at the same time that when I.

When I and everyone else with 1135 classes in that area was going to class, and we, you know, I'm sure people saw him that day and thought it was another student just parking, you know, fighting for parking space because there's a million kids there, you know.

Yeah.

So, yeah, everybody's just kind of going about their normal business and then take us through it.

What was it?

I mean, so feel free, give detail if you'd like.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

You got the time.

We were sitting in class and I mean, like, it was just fine, you know, we're going through the basics, and a student goes to use the restroom, and he comes right back in and he says, hey.

They're saying that we gotta lock the doors.

And then we're all, like, so confused.

We're like, what's going on?

We have no idea what's going on.

And then, you know, like a minute or two passes, and then we get the.

I think it was an announcement, or maybe it was.

Someone told us there's an active shooter on campus.

And so there was a moment of hesitation and then absolute just go mode from every single person in the classroom where all the Students as fast as we can.

We're grabbing chairs, we're grabbing everything we can grab and just throwing them in front of the doors.

And then, you know, we really don't know what to do at this point except sit.

So we don't even know what wall to sit at because, I mean, I don't know if there was a school shooting drill day, I missed it, and apparently my whole class did.

We have no idea what we're doing.

So we're sitting against the wall, the wall closest to the doors.

And I remember, you know, I won't get too far ahead, but I.

At first, I was sitting towards the middle, and then I made a decision that I need to be sitting next to the door as much as I can in case, God forbid, he was gonna try to enter the room.

Okay, well, you know, it's one thing when they go through, even with the shooter trainings and stuff like that.

It's one thing to do it in, you know, in theory, but when the situation's real, I mean, when that.

When the variables are real, you know, that can be for anyone.

It can be a completely different experience for you because you can try.

You can have all the things, you know, you need to do in your head, and then when it's actually happening, it can be jarring.

You start to question everything.

Absolutely.

And so when did you find out?

How long were you locked down before.

You know, this was what the worst part of it all was, because we were locked down for maybe an hour plus.

I don't know, it felt like a century.

And you're sitting there in an echo chamber of miscommunication, and it's.

The whole school is exploding on social media, on anonymous, you know, messaging apps, and a lot of these.

I don't know where these kids are.

They could be on campus, they could be off.

But regardless, they're making the situation 30 times scarier than it has to be because everyone's scared, Reporting false information, you know, and so it was an eternity of sitting there watching message after message.

There's two shooters now.

There's three shooters.

One's at the cvs.

I heard that this shooter is blank, and there's gonna be a shooter.

It's a terrorist attack.

It's this, it's that, it's the other.

And you're just sitting there in the classroom thinking it's still going on.

The police.

You keep hearing sirens, and, you know, the police still aren't there.

That was the worst part, is that it was.

It felt like hours.

And the Police still weren't there.

Yeah.

So you guys had no.

Until somebody told you to lock the doors down, there was no.

You had no idea what was going on?

We heard word of mouth was faster than the actual announcement system for the school.

That's wild.

Well, I mean that, I guess that makes sense.

I mean, if you're there and suddenly something, the idea that something serious is going on, I mean, that'll travel like wildfire.

That's true, that's true.

So, all right, so what was.

So they let you out?

Right, so how did that go about?

Like, did they announcement phone calls?

What was.

So we were just locked in until.

I mean it was literally just the guessing game and it was so horrible is, you know, we're sitting there and it gets to the point where every time someone's knocking, we're all looking at each other scared out of our mind, thinking that it could be a shooter pretending to be police or that there's, you know, people going around pretending to be police knocking all the doors.

We have no idea what's going on.

And it did not, you know, we were not taken out of there until the police came in ar, you know, whatever rifles they have drawn.

And you literally.

I never thought I'd do this in my life, but the police come into a room with their ars pointed, you know, not quite at you, but they're pointing.

You just have to walk out of the whole building, all the way down the stairs with your hands up as high as you can.

And I just don't, you know, no one should be in that situation.

Right.

Yeah.

I'm assuming that your hearts were probably beating out of your chest.

Oh, absolutely.

So now what?

All right, so what was the immediate thing you did when they finally get you out?

Did they group you up?

What was the.

They just grouped us up outside, man, and nowhere to go.

Just wait, stand here and wait.

And no information, no nothing.

You're just police keep showing up, more police and more police and then police with special uniforms on.

And then we don't know if it's reserve or what, cuz we're in the capitol.

Just every sort of police number that you can imagine was there.

Because we're literally five minutes from, you know, the downtown offices and whatnot.

And I mean we still stood outside for, I mean the class was at 11:35.

I don't think I got home till 5 or 6pm from just sitting in the classroom for however many hours and then standing outside waiting for them to say, yeah, you can go home.

Yeah.

So at what point were you able to communicate with the outside world?

I was communicating with the outside world the entire time.

Who was the first person you called or texted?

I think it was my two best friends.

My.

I texted them in our group chat, and I.

We.

Like, I just said, dude, like, they're shooting up the school, and they thought I was messing around, so they're cracking jokes.

And, you know, I thank them for it at this point, because if they didn't crack jokes, I don't know if how I would have handled everything.

But, I mean, they.

They just were there with me through it.

I really didn't tell most people.

People were texting me because everyone's like, yeah, we checked your location.

You're the only one we know on campus right now.

Yeah.

And so, thankfully, a lot of people are reaching out, keeping helping me keep my cool.

But, I mean, regardless of who's texting, I'm still sitting in there thinking, you know, this guy comes in.

If I die trying, it doesn't matter.

I got to do something to protect all these people as best I can.

Right.

You know, so at what point.

At what point did they.

Did, you know, the.

What really happened?

That's a great question.

I guess.

I don't know.

Maybe a day or two after that's when we finally figure out what happened.

We're able to clear all the clutter.

For those who don't know how many shooters.

There was one shooter.

Yeah.

His mother was a police officer, and he used her service firearm to unfortunately slaughter two people who weren't even students.

He was in the student union, and they were.

They were grown men just trying to do their jobs.

It's hard.

So if you got questions.

No, go for it.

You've got this laid out, man.

Well, I had a general thing, so.

All right.

So.

All right, you got the truth now.

So the question I would ask you next is, you know, what.

Two parts we'll handle.

The first one would be, okay, so how did that change the whole setting?

So, you know, before that, you know, it was a normal school year.

You said that, you know, it felt great because there was a lot of life.

Everybody, you know, it just.

It was kind of exciting that morning.

Even was exciting before it happened.

How did life at school change?

Oh, you know, it was.

The roller coaster went straight down.

You know, FSU is, you know, a party school, whatever, and everything went silent.

Every bar that you could think of, every restaurant closed down.

The whole school was in mourning.

And it was, you know, the Lord is near the brokenhearted, right?

I've never seen FSU collaborate in that sort of way in my life.

It was after the chaos was over.

People who were there, weren't there were sending their love out, sending, planting, putting flowers all across campus.

Just beautiful, beautiful sites of collaboration and community.

So, yeah, so basically everything just.

It was like a whole different world.

Right?

It completely.

It's.

It wasn't the same, though.

You know, normally FSU is like, oh, we're all partying.

Like, you know, we're all gonna be rude to each other, in short.

But it was like you could feel in the air when.

You know, when you walk through campus and.

Cause I couldn't get my stuff.

My car and my book bag were stuck at campus for, I think, a day or two because you're not allowed in no crime scene.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

So I had to go back to get it.

And that's when I saw.

You know, that's when I saw campus for the first time after what had happened.

And it was just sad faces, you know, some people laughing and smiling, but volunteers helping students get their.

Get their belongings back from the classrooms, things like that.

Right, right.

So what was it like the first time getting back on campus?

I mean, it was just sad, man.

You know, to walk through.

To look over at where the caution tape is and to think I walk there every day, literally every single day, because I prefer to go through the student union than go around.

You know, that's.

You know, it just everyone, I guess, at least I'll speak for myself.

Nothing felt the same, you know, it wasn't the same FSU that I had known it was now.

I don't know, there's not a word for it, but something different.

Yeah.

Do you hear about people that were possibly looking to change schools after that?

I didn't, actually.

You know, because thankfully, FSU gave students some leeway.

You know, you'd work with your professors, figure out what's going on.

Do you still have to do work to pass this, that, and the other.

So I don't even.

I don't think I went back to campus after I got my stuff.

I didn't want to be there, you know what I mean?

Even to see the decorations.

I didn't want to be out there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I can imagine that.

It's got to be weird to step back into that, knowing what happened.

I mean, as you said yourself, going into it, I mean, you could have been parking at the same.

You could have passed right by him and not even realized it, you know, because you're in your world, you know, and for some people to think about those same things, you know, they could have passed right by.

They might have already been there.

It's not all that dissimilar to when you hear things about happen like 9, 11.

You hear stories about people that should have been there, that weren't there, that were adjacent, that, you know.

But going back to those areas can be jarring.

Sometimes in situations like that, you'll have people that transfer different schools because they can't be in those environments again.

So with.

If you transfer, do you have my heart?

Good job.

You're smarter than me.

So, I mean, I can imagine that we don't think about some of the things that happen when terrible things like this.

We think about the loss of life.

I mean, that's the most immediate thing we think about.

And we think about then the people directly involved.

Family, friends, people in the classroom, maybe even the surrounding rooms, what it was like.

But oftentimes we don't think about that.

The impact of something like that goes way beyond that day.

It goes way beyond just those groups of people.

I mean, as you pointed out, the vibe changes.

Everything changes.

You went from everything's great and wow, look at all the life here, to you didn't even want to go back.

So, I mean, that's pretty big.

So what kind of.

If you don't want to talk about some of these things, that's fine.

But what were some of the things that lingered with you?

Maybe kind of like a.

Maybe like a PTSD kind of thing.

What kind of things really kind of kept.

I hate to use the word triggering, but, like, what kind of things were you, unfortunately, walking away with after an event like that for a while?

And you might even be working with some of them still.

So, you know, it's just.

I've never in my life, you know, I'm not a violent person at all.

I don't get into fights.

I don't like those sort of things.

And it was the first time in my life where I fully accepted.

In that moment, I said to myself, if he even shows his face here, I'm gonna kill this man with my bare hands.

No matter what.

I will kill this man or die trying.

Because I'm sitting in that class, and it's just young.

Some of the students I knew.

They.

Were younger than me in 18, 19, and then a lot of women, and they're all just.

Everyone's scared and crying.

And I shouldn't have put that burden on myself.

However, I did, and I Can't undo it.

And I just, I mean, I was ready to.

I'd do anything, you know, because I don't who deserves to be in that situation, you know, Nobody deserves to be in that situation.

Yeah.

And so I was ready to.

And so now I have this.

Unfortunately, that's.

That feeling sits with you when you, you know, in that moment you really thought you were going to kill.

And so I had a problem in Walmart a few weeks ago where, you know, these kids, they have that they're six, seven joke, right.

And they were trying to play a little prank and they come in through the front door and they scream it as loud as they can.

And I, for a second it popped through my head.

I need to get to the front and I need to stop whoever's shooting this place up right now.

Lingering.

Yeah.

And so I had to grab the aisle and just pop a squat and catch my breath and realize where I was.

Because I mean, I, you know, that's some of the, the repercussions of people's actions.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, stuff like that, it can stay with you, you know, deep rooted, like you.

It was just some kids being obnoxious and.

But that was able to kind of take you back to that moment.

Yeah, that's pretty.

So have you have, once again, any of this stuff if you, you know, answer what you want.

So did you.

Or do you know a lot of people that went into counseling or some kind of mediation or something like that?

It was recommended, I think, that all students get counseling.

You know, these recommendations are, they're recommendations.

Right.

So I don't know how many kids did it.

I myself, you know, I gotta, I'm there trying to figure this stuff out.

I'm trying to get there, you know, but psychotherapy is definitely a helpful route.

It's helped me before and I'm, I'd love to be there to go talk about this stuff, but in the meantime, I've just been sharing the testimony and story of what happened.

Yeah.

Now in that moment, where was your faith during those.

Throughout this, I mean, absolutely in God, you know, that things will be okay.

But I have an issue beating myself up and I have an issue trying to lean on myself.

So, you know, I pray during that moment and then I, you know, then I still think, you know, even if I'm praying to the Lord, it's.

I still gotta do this.

You know, this is, this is in my hands now.

Because if he's here, it's me, you know, it's me stepping in.

Unless The Lord sends somebody to shoot him in the back.

Right.

So it was very hard to keep mindfulness at all and, you know, even get through prayer because it's just what is going on.

Yeah.

Where.

So did it.

Cause was it a stumbling block for you in your faith or is this something that maybe helped grow it?

This definitely helped grow my faith.

This is really what made me realize how precious life is and how much hurt festers and that you have to get it handled because.

Or you have to lean on the Lord so that you can get a handle on it.

Because evidently, and we see it time and time again, people cannot handle their pain and they hurt other people because they can't handle it.

And it's okay that they can't handle it, but it's not okay what they're doing.

Yeah.

So, yeah, you touched on something that I think is a good point.

You know, tomorrow is never promised for any of us.

You know, one of the things about that our enemy loves to do is try to give us the false idea that we got plenty of time no matter what.

And for some people, they want to take advantage of that.

Well, I'm going to have fun now.

I'll get to that later.

And unfortunately, later doesn't sometimes come.

But the idea of, all right, life is precious and I need to get on this.

I need to solidify my relationship with Jesus.

I need to move this forward.

I think that's a great, you know, in a tragic thing.

It's, it's a great thing to come from that where you're like, you know, I want to make sure that I'm, I'm settled up with my creator just in case something again.

I can only imagine the kind of things that, that brought to mind.

So after that, how did that change some of your ideals?

First off, what about just off the top gun violence, where, how has that changed your perspective on guns, gun violence, that kind of thing.

So I actually gave up my guns after that event because, you know, I haven't gone to psychotherapy or anything yet.

And I got a real fear that I'm not going to be able to shoot him anymore, you know, because of what happened.

And so, you know, I just, I don't need it at this point in my life.

And I mean, if I know it's a lot used well for self defense and used in so many in beneficial ways.

However, a tool that is so powerful for good is also so powerful for evil.

And I saw the evil firsthand and I don't want to be.

I don't even want to have anything to do with it anymore.

I can understand that.

Yeah, that's, that's, you know, I've heard different people go different ways with it, but.

Yeah, so is that.

So if you were, Are you on the point where in your life you're just, is it just the idea that you can't, you don't want to be put in a situation where you have to rely on something like that?

I'd rather die than take a life.

At this point in my, you know, when it now might change in the future when I have, you know, a son or a daughter or something like that, then it's, I really have people to protect.

But at this point for my day to day walking around, anything like that, and I don't need a gun because I'm.

If they're going to kill me over my wallet, they're going to sit with that pain the rest of their life over killing someone for a wallet.

You know what I'm saying?

I don't need to go in, in a duel.

And it's not a 1853.

Right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So what about school safety?

What are your thoughts changes on that?

See, I mean this is, I just don't even know with, with school safety because obviously there, you know, there's so many ways to answer that question when it comes to is it security or is it teaching, is it this?

Is it that.

I mean, there should be more preparation.

Definitely.

You know, you felt unprepared.

Yeah.

I mean if you're, if you're gonna have, if we're realistically gonna have this many shootings a year, which we hope we don't.

Which we hope we don't.

But it's gotten to the point where.

Okay, then let's stop beating around the bush about it.

Go start the, go start running those drills.

How many tornadoes you have a year and how many school shootings you have, but you're still running the tornado drill, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

I mean, I guess it's better to be prepared than caught unprepared, you know, So I would think so.

When it comes to the reason why these shootings happen, you can try to be as safe as you can, you can try to even go through as much training as you can.

But evil doesn't pay attention to the rules.

Evil doesn't.

You can put rules out and people abide by them, but evil doesn't necessarily pay for that.

And so if someone's going to try to do something, they're going to try to find a way around everything.

So it becomes less about some of the other things we can do and more about, like, heart conditions at that point.

So, you know, and that's the terrifying thing is that, you know, looking back, we talked about Charlie Kirk and that situation.

That was a lot of hatred that had to manifest in order to.

For someone to do that.

And it was a lot of hatred that had to manifest for that shooter to come onto your campus.

So it's the problem.

It's not even.

You know, I'm not trying to get overly political in this, but I don't think it's a weapon problem or a lack of security problem.

I don't think it's a maybe.

I mean, more training can always be good.

I'm not saying.

But I think it's a hard problem.

I think there's so much that is being poured into, both negatively and positively into people that when the people are willing to drink up that negativity and let it manifest in those ways, how can we stop that?

I mean, you had a guy like Charlie Kirk who was trying to just speak positively and respectfully, and he got silenced.

The challenge becomes so much greater to me.

I think that this is one of the biggest reasons why it's so important for people to answer the call to ministry and to do work for the Lord.

I think it's also so important for.

For any Christian to be willing to stand and love people and stop attacking people for the things that they don't like about them and start showing them more love.

And maybe we can start to soften some of these hearts before they get too hard.

I mean, it's.

I think the enemy's been running around up, down, sideways for a while to the point where it is.

I mean, you know, as someone who was just there, it's every facet of everything you do.

There's a little part that's just wicked.

I mean, you know, you're in college, you know.

What do you mean you don't drink?

What do you mean you don't go blackout, you know, what do you mean?

You know.

What do you mean you don't.

What do you mean you aren't doing Molly tonight?

What?

We're going to the rave.

Why aren't you doing Molly tonight?

You know, and so.

And then, you know, you get on your phone and what is it you're following all the hottest celebrities who, you know, they.

Some of them are obsessed with themselves or what, this, that and the other, or some of them are greedy.

It's the enemy is just absolutely everywhere in young adults lives.

And I think that's why the call is so strong right now for, for this generation, because it's just, I, I think there's been enough, you know.

Yeah, it definitely feels like enough.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, we could use a break, we could use some time without anything like this happening.

And unfortunately it feels like lately we've had a bunch of different instances where there's been different kinds of shootings and, or violence that it's like, when will it stop?

And unfortunately we do live in a broken world where we're living under the curse that we brought on ourselves and we have to live here until good Lord comes.

And it can help set everything right again.

But that's the tricky situation here is try to navigate those waters and find the best ways to go.

So for you now, when it comes to other situations, like when it came to maybe the Charlie Kirk thing or when you hear about these other school shootings, what, what kind of things does that do to you?

What are your reactions to stuff like that?

So, you know, I've sat with this a lot and you know, I just feel, you know, grief for whoever passes away.

You know, that's a given.

But deep, deep empathy for whoever got so lost, so lost to be wicked, to actually let the demons and let despair and let the world win, because that's all you're doing.

That's why they always kill themselves after or this, that or the other, because they are letting the enemy win and overtake them fully.

And so I just feel awful.

I think about the situation that they might be in.

I think about what might happen to them because I don't know.

You know, a lot of people have enough trauma to do something like this, but not everybody does it.

And it's the people who don't have strength, the people who are confused that end up doing it.

You know, people who don't have Jesus to fill those holes, those scars.

You can have a heart mogged with scars.

You still don't have to do it.

You really don't.

Yeah, yeah, I'm.

I almost wonder what, what has changed in the last 30 years, 40 years.

Because it wasn't always like this.

I mean, 60 years ago we weren't having, you know, school shootings and stuff like that.

Like that.

That almost unheard of.

Not, I mean, not saying it never happened, but I'm saying, like it almost unheard of.

We still had guns.

Yeah, we still, we still had hard times and people dealing with, with struggles.

Like it wasn't like my, my high.

School actually had a shooting class back in the day.

I'm not kidding, people.

No.

So we lived out in the country in the farm, you know, we were farm school.

And there was actually a shooting class where you could bring your own rifle.

I'm not kidding.

And you could, you know, it was part of the class and.

But it was.

But that's the thing, is the mentality was so different that it wasn't thought of as anything like that.

You could have a gun in the back of your truck when you rolled in the school parking lot and nobody would say anything.

But now, oh my goodness.

I think it's because society don't like Jesus.

Thirty years ago, every store was closed on a Sunday, or most of them were.

Now they don't care.

So you were bored 30 years ago, what would you do?

You go to church, you didn't have no cell phone or you didn't have a Instagram or nothing.

And that was a small way that Jesus was influencing people's lives.

Well, I think there was a bigger sense of community.

Community is the first word that comes to mind.

Yeah.

Selflessness.

I mean, people have been selfish for always, right?

That's never been.

Not a thing.

But now if you look at.

And I'm gonna harp on social media.

I was hoping you'd go there.

And not gonna lie.

I'm back on.

On the Facebooks.

Rolling reels.

Oh, goodness.

I gotta get off of it, right?

Like, so I was off of.

I was off of all social media for like two and a half years.

Wow.

So like it was amazing.

And I got back on for stupid trying to sell stuff on Marketplace, you.

Know, and that's how they get.

I sold the stuff.

But it's gonna.

That's my favorite part to Facebook is Marketplace.

But I think social media has the problem with.

Social media is not as much the.

As much as it is a problem.

It's not as much the fakeness of people.

Right.

Because that's a problem too.

It's somebody's fake life you're looking at.

Right.

But more so it has elevated our own thought of our own self importance.

Our opinion actually matters.

We think and it's like.

And the things that we say.

Now we have a platform that people look at and all of a sudden we think that what we have to say and think matters.

Whereas before we didn't have that mentality.

Right.

We didn't have the mentality of my voice matters.

You would just have a conversation and if your voice mattered, it mattered.

Right.

Like if you're in your circle.

There's a lot of disconnect.

I mean, think about it.

Before the technological advances of the past 30 years, people spent most of their time in front of one another or actually speaking to one another on a phone.

They didn't actually.

And it's wild to see the changes.

And, you know, it's funny, as you said about the scrolling, I had a parent talk to me about their child and said, I took my children's phone away.

And then as soon as I gave back to them, they did the same thing.

And I'm like, that's how they think a phone works.

Like, we think.

No, no, I am right there with you.

When I was growing up.

How old are you?

23.

23.

I'm still pretty young, but when I was growing up and we had phones attached to the walls, sometimes they had a little circular thing.

This means I'm talking on the.

Not this.

Right.

Not this.

Not this.

So it's weird, like, to think about how our youth now think phones work.

Like, they think you can talk on the phone like this.

You know what I mean?

And we're like, what do you.

Yeah.

Oh, because of FaceTime?

Yeah.

A child thinks you.

That's what a phone's for.

And.

And.

And scrolling and all the things that, like, don't get me wrong.

As we'll call it an Elder Millennial, or I like to call it Xennial, because I think there's a mix.

We're not getting into that conversation.

Elder Millennial, I'll give you.

But you're not getting X at all.

But it's kind of cool for me because, you know, it's almost like I felt like our generation was, like, slowly earning all these cool things.

Like, oh, we had to wait for it.

So it's like we earned it.

And so, like, we don't take it as much for granted.

We get sucked into things, you know, all the same, because, like, scrolling is like poison.

Like, and it's just something that you just keep doing.

But, like, our generation, though, thought that by now we'd have holograms.

I mean, because technology.

No, seriously, when we started growing up, technology was like this new thing.

This new thing, this new thing.

And when social media hit, it kind of went well.

Social media, everything cooled down, and then it was all about getting social.

So actually, there's something to talk about that's Cash cow.

That's exactly right for you.

When you went through this experience at your school, what was your relationship with.

How was social media for you during that Period of time and the immediate after.

Was it something that you grabbed onto?

Was it something that you wanted to start avoiding?

What was that like for you?

So I've always had a bad relationship with social media.

That's why I still don't have it back yet.

But I'm thinking after this, you know, I'll go look into it.

Stay away from it.

It's probably better to stay.

If you're not on it now and you don't need it.

Don't get it.

Yeah.

Well, that's a good.

That's a great way to put it, actually.

You know, any.

There was still outpours of love and whatnot, but, you know, then.

Well, I still went to Bimini last year and I still have to post those pictures straight back to business.

You know, after.

After everyone gets their heartfelt post out, it's back to they turn in the machine giving your.

Selling your information and whatnot.

Well, I mean, you know, so you felt like it was.

Things were hot for a minute and then they just.

Oh, yeah.

And I think that's how these things always go is, you know, some people, people who really, really mean what they.

What.

What they meant.

They really, really meant what they said.

They still post about it, they still mention it, and they still think about it because it's something that sticks with them.

And then others.

So you think a lot of people were just jumping on that bandwagon?

Of course, because not all 60,000 students were there and oh, my goodness, you know, it's so frustrating to have been so close to the event and to know that regardless, people are gonna try to marginalize my voice and what.

How the situation happened.

And it's likely the people who are at home when it happened that are gonna try to say, oh, well, what do you know, buddy?

You know what I mean?

And that's just how the culture is.

And that sort of institution is, you know, oh, well, I know best because I'm me.

Even though I wasn't there.

I know best because I'm me and, you know, you know how it goes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I want to get back to the heart problem mentality.

Yeah.

Through it.

And.

Because, like, it's something that my sister and I.

My middle sister, I'm the oldest of.

Of four of us kids, I have three younger sisters, but my middle sister, her and I do not see eye to eye on anything, like, at all.

And for a long time, we.

We would not be able to have civil discourse at all about anything.

Anything except for maybe wwe, but that was it.

Right.

Like, that was like our one.

Like, I love it, you know, sit down and have a conversation.

But today I had tossed out there my song to my family chat, you know, group on Facebook, and she was just like, I don't get it.

She's like, it's sad that Charlie was killed and that, you know, a wife lost a husband and daughters lost a dad.

And she's like, but I don't understand the concept of, like, why was he a hero?

Why did people think highly of him?

You know, like, she's like, everything that I've ever seen of him has been negative.

And, you know, all this stuff.

And, you know, it.

It's just.

It was an.

It opened up a conversation, right?

That.

That led to this very thing of, like, the problem is a heart problem, right?

And realistically speaking, what we need to do is we need.

We need to figure out how to fix that heart problem.

Right?

And yes, obviously, for those of us who believe in Jesus, Jesus is the fix for that heart problem.

And there's not going to be another fix that actually fixes it.

But we need to be able to have that conversation to open up the door, right, to say, hey, all right, we can all agree that as much as we don't like guns, some of us, right, it's not the gun that was the problem, right?

The gun definitely amplifies the carnage.

It's a tool.

It's just a tool.

I get that.

But the gun was not the problem, right?

And so in order to solve the violence, the heart is what we need to fix.

The core of everything.

It's the core of it all.

I mean, the politicians are going to turn it into what they want to.

I mean, they'll blame the guns, they'll blame the security, they'll blame all kinds of things that are gonna.

On the conservative side, they'll blame the liberals for their ideologies and all of that, too.

And realistically speaking, everybody's got a heart problem, right?

Like you and I've got heart problems, right?

We have situations in which our heart is not where it needs to be as well.

I mean, Bible says the heart is desperately wicked above all else.

Right?

So there's a heart problem in.

In the world, and we really need to be sitting down and trying to figure out how can we better put our hearts collectively in a better place, you know, even.

Even if people don't.

Don't want to go the Jesus route.

Right?

I get it, I get it.

I mean, you want your freedoms, right?

I got it.

And.

But at the Same time, like, if we can agree that there's a heart problem, we need to figure out a way to fix some of it, right?

Start.

Start, like, mending some of those heart problems.

Well, you know, what's interesting is that that even has become overly complicated because people put different labels on the heart problems, and they say, well, it's this.

This is the heart problem.

And so, for instance, on one side of the aisle, they're saying the heart problem is that we're not just accepting everybody however they wanted to be accepted.

Like, that's not necessarily the heart problem.

Okay, we can love people.

I will say we can love people through the things we don't agree with them on, which is something that was disowned in this.

It's like one side of the aisle says, you guys aren't accepting us for who we are and you're not loving us.

Okay, well, so if we can do what you're asking to love you, even though we don't agree with the things you're doing, you just displayed that you can't do this same thing, you know, so that was.

That was.

That was.

That's a hard pill.

That's where it becomes like, I think we're missing the mark.

I think it's not that we're looking at this the wrong way.

I think, you know, people are going to have all different kinds of ideologies and even theologies and all those things.

And so that's going to be what it's going to be.

And for those who are willing to continue to stand up for the things that they believe in unapologetically in some cases, but are willing to stand firm and go, this is what I believe.

This is truth.

That's fine.

But how can we.

We cannot endorse the idea that we have to hate someone because of it.

Sure.

When we're breeding discontent, when we're breeding contempt for other people because they're not thinking the way we do.

You know, we look at Jesus from a Christian standpoint and we see that, you know, he walked into spaces where people were sinners, some of the worst kinds in some cases, and he would go and sit down with them.

You know, when it comes to the tax collectors, tax collectors in their time are considered like the worst of the worst because they were Jews who were betraying their own people to make money off of them.

How dare you?

They were looked at as lower than even the prostitutes.

And he went and ate with them.

And they're like, how can you even do that?

Because they need A doctor.

How can we come alongside people that don't even agree with us and see them as a human being?

And I think what a big part, from at least a Christian standpoint, is to recognize.

And we talked a little bit about this during our spiritual warfare series that we just went through.

We did 12 weeks in spiritual warfare.

But is that we got to remember that we're not fighting against them.

They're not the problem.

It's the thing behind them that's the problem.

And so it, once again, it's not about attacking people at the forefront, it's about trying to help get into a relationship with them of some kind that's productive enough to see the roots of the problems, because that's the only way we're going to find healing on any side of the market.

And if we're not willing to do that, then we're causing more problems.

I think.

Exactly.

That's hard heart you were talking about.

I think civil discourse is at the heart of what is necessary to make that happen.

And my sister and I, we were talking in the group chat about what is that?

I mean, what are.

There's a few rules that have to be in play in order for you to have civil discourse.

Right.

And I think it's important for people to hear like one of the things, like in order to have a civilization conversation, debate with someone with differing views, the first thing you got to do is you gotta.

You have to go in with the mindset that there is one truth and one reality, but many perspectives that have viewed that truth or reality.

Right.

Like there's.

There's different perspectives.

Sure, yeah.

But there's only one truth and only one reality.

So the idea is that.

So like some see that, that situation from one angle, even though you may see that situation from a different angle, but it doesn't have any effect on what actually happened.

Right.

What took place took place.

But the way you see it, the angle from which you see that taking place may be different.

Right.

So we have to understand that that's a truth.

Right.

Like, that's something that every parent should be able to understand, especially any parent that has more than one child.

Because when an incident happens, there's what this one said happened, there's what this one said happened, and then there's what actually happened.

Right?

Right.

So that's the first thing.

Right.

You gotta go in with that truth, that mindset is that there's one truth, one reality, many perspectives.

The second thing that you gotta be able to do is you gotta go into the Conversation or debate with the idea and openness that we could be wrong, even though obviously we don't think we're wrong.

Right.

The beliefs that you hold, it's rare.

That somebody goes into discourse going, I think I'm wrong about this.

Right, Right.

But you have to go in with the idea that you could be right.

Like, it's possible that you aren't correct about some things.

I guarantee you you're not right about everything.

Guarantee you you're not right about everything.

Me, I'm kind of, you know.

No, no.

Guarantee you that you're not right about everything.

Thank you.

I guarantee that I'm not right about everything, too.

So we have to go in with that mindset that we could be wrong about whatever we're talking about.

Right.

Or we could be missing some links or pieces.

Right?

Yeah.

Here's a really easy example about that.

Go for it.

So, for instance, like, some people love eating tomatoes, like, a lot.

And I think tomatoes are gross, and I think I'm right about that.

But my wife, who will take a tomato and eat it like an apple, a little salt shaker, says that I'm wrong about that.

And neither one of us are willing to give up our position.

Have to be willing to go, well, could you just try this tomato?

Is what she'll say.

And I'll be like, and I have to be willing.

Still a tomato.

It's still a tomato.

So the third.

The third rule, though, is the most important one, right?

And the third rule is that you have to go in assuming that the other person is adhering to the rules before that, rules one and two.

So.

So that whenever you are reacting, right.

To whatever they're saying, you have that in your mind.

Right.

So, like, I know that if you're coming into a civil conversation that we both are of the mindset that there's one truth, even though we have different perspectives, and that I could be wrong about whatever it is we're talking about.

So if I know that the other person is coming in with that and I have the mindset and I ascribe to the idea that they are adhering to those things, my reaction to them is going to be, what?

Way more tempered than not.

Because you're like, okay, this person is already coming with the idea that they could be wrong and that we're looking at it from two different perspectives, trying to find the truth.

And that changes the perspective of a debate or a conversation with somebody that has differing views from you.

Whereas normally we just go at each other and yell and Scream and whatever.

It's not civil.

So.

But it was interesting.

That is, all of that came of today's conversation with my sister and leads to.

We both agree that there's a heart problem.

We don't agree on anything else with it, but there's a heart problem.

And we both agree that there needs to be more civil discourse, and we don't understand why that's all gone.

It was interesting because she said that she has been getting verbally attacked, I guess, because people know her viewpoints and she lives in a very conservative town.

And she's not at all, although she's not uber crazy liberal either.

But people have come in and been like, your side did.

And she's like, I don't understand why everybody's attacking me.

She's like.

And I'm like, look, it doesn't make it right, but now you're starting to feel what most of us have felt for a while, like since 2002.

And so.

So it's like one of those things.

It's like, I am so sorry that has happened to you, but now, you know, kind of where we're at, you know, And.

And it's got to stop.

And we both agree that that's got to stop.

I would say I like your list of things that need to happen.

I would say, say, I'll give you one alternative way of thinking on one of your.

You said so you need to go in with the thought process that you might be wrong.

Okay, so I'll give you one alternative, and I think you could probably agree with this.

So if that's something you're having a hard time coming to terms with, let's say it's a subject that you've studied a lot and you're pretty strong in your beliefs, and so you're going in the situation going, I don't think there's anything that the person could say that could change my mind.

Okay, then here's your alternative.

Don't go in to prove someone wrong.

Go in to understand.

Because if you're willing.

Some of the best conversations I've had with people that did not believe the things I believed about any subject, rather, is when I was like, I put aside the notion that I needed to be right and just was like, well, explain to me what you think.

And when they were willing to at least hear me out too, and we were able to go back and forth, it wasn't necessarily about trying to prove it to each other.

It was like, okay, well, then, well, what does.

If that's what you believe, then what about this?

And then, well, what about this?

And then being able to ask genuine questions, to really see from the other person's perspective, be willing to put yourself aside for a second and genuinely get to know the other person in a way that you weren't going to.

So if you can't, if you're going in thinking, and then it's hard for you to go, well, but I.

But I'm right.

But I'm right.

I know I'm right about this.

Okay, then go in to understand the other person.

I would say that that is.

That is hopeful.

Yeah, that's.

That's way more hopeful.

Because, like, here's the.

Here's the reality of it.

If you.

I really like what Christian apologist Frank Turek says about this.

And that is you have four different types of people that you talk to, right?

One on any subject.

So say whatever the subject is, one is completely to the right, whatever that viewpoint is, not politically, but to this side, right?

And there is nothing that you can ever do to change their mind, right?

And then the other side is also true, right?

Equal and oppositely true.

So left, all the way left.

There's nothing you can do.

But then there's also two people that are in the middle, right?

And they lean the directions, but they're open to being wrong about whatever it is they talk about.

And these people aren't worth arguing with.

They aren't worth debating.

They're barely worth having that conversation with because they're not open to the truth, whatever that might be.

They could hold the truth.

I'm not saying that they.

They don't.

But if you're not open to the possibility of being wrong, it's almost better to just not have the conversation because.

Because as much as that's a hopeful thing, and some people can do that.

I love that some people can do.

Can go into it and just listen to understand the other person.

Most human beings cannot do that.

We need to bring back something that we all are familiar with, the old Socratic shakedown.

Because you guys know the movie Inception, right?

The whole point is you got to get in their dream, you know, to, you know, make them think of something that is all that asking questions is because you're getting those gears turning for them.

If you ask the right line of questioning, you can at least, you know, like going with what you were saying, you know, they can finally at least understand what you're thinking.

And.

Well, I mean, it's.

For me, it's.

It's because there are times Where I do go in going, I'd like to know if I'm wrong about this.

That's genuinely sometimes what I do.

But there are times where I genuinely have spent a lot of time and there are things that I have strong convictions about both in and out of the Bible.

I'll put it that way.

That being said, when people talk to me about them, I try to then just want to understand.

I'll ask questions.

I love to have conversations.

I really do.

Right.

But at that point, I'm like, okay, well, then please explain to me where your line of thinking is.

And I'll ask questions because I want to fully understand where you're at.

Right.

And the thing is, is that you have to hold back the temptation.

No, you got to hold back the temptation to look for the opening, to attack.

That's what it is.

Because that's what people start out in the right way with that method where they'll be all right.

And then what they're doing is they're sitting there waiting for the whole.

Waiting for the right thing to go.

But it's this.

And don't get me wrong as an apologist, if you're trying to evangelize, that's a useful tool.

But if you're trying to have a conversation, then that is not a useful tool, because then you're just going to.

You could easily have someone going, wait a minute, I thought we were just having a conversation here, right?

And let's not like, okay, so I'm not saying don't listen to get to understand the other person in the scenario that I set up.

I'm saying that without the possibility of you being wrong, you're going to have a nightmare of a time listening for that other person.

There's no real point, right?

There's no point at that point because you're not seeking truth.

If anything, your motivation is, is to understand that person so that you can navigate that person better.

Right?

Which I guess is good.

But that leads to the.

The very open probability of manipulating that person, and not always in the best way.

I mean, I would say that we shouldn't even manipulate people to believing in Jesus.

Right?

It shouldn't be a manipulation process.

Right.

Like the whole, you know, you're going to hell if you don't believe is a terrible way to witness to somebody.

Like, not because it doesn't work.

It's because it's.

That's not what Jesus wants.

That's the best you could think of, you know, scaring people.

That's the best, you know, I mean, it's a.

It's a truth and it's a reality.

Right.

But that's not why we have a relationship with Jesus.

Right.

Like, that's not the point of our relationship.

So, like, manipulation tactics are not great whenever it comes to the big key things.

Right.

And so that would be my worry.

If you're not in a place where you are open to the possibility of being wrong, even though you know that you probably aren't right.

Because that's okay.

You can know that you're probably not.

But if there's proof enough that I'm wrong, I'll accept that.

Like, it opens you up to where.

You don't have, like, our discourse on David and Goliath.

You don't have a. Yeah, yeah.

If you can.

If you can show me, I'll believe.

I have shown you.

I don't even want to open this.

Can I.

Sorry.

He and I have to get into.

It about that, but.

Because if you're going into it just to listen and get to understand the other person, as great as that is, there's some reason and motivation behind it.

Right.

And it could be the purest of intentions, but pure intentions pave the road to hell.

So that's just one of those things.

So I agree that that has to be a mindset going into that civil conversation too.

So that's a great added.

It's something that.

Yeah.

And perhaps it takes discipline, you know, that you need to work up to.

To where you can get yourself in a place.

A lot of it's setting yourself aside and being willing to listen.

I think that if you get.

If you have something that you're unwilling to even entertain the possibility of being wrong on.

Right.

I'm not saying you can't believe that you're right and you could be.

But if you're not willing to even entertain the possibility of being wrong about something, I would say pray on it, because that could be a sense of pride and arrogance and it could be even just a root of it.

It doesn't necessarily mean that's what flourishes and shows in your life.

But I'm saying prey on that because that could be a stronghold that the enemy's got his foot in the door of.

And I would say be very careful of that.

So I don't know.

But it is bringing good conversation.

All these terrible things God is starting to use for some amazing things.

And I know that you were hinting at that earlier and I was like, no, we gotta talk about the negative stuff too.

You're One of those I wanna talk about the happy stuff more often than the negative.

But there's a reality of the negative that we have to talk about, and we have to get in there.

There's gonna be times where we're gonna have to get political, and it's just gonna have to be a part of our discourse.

There's gonna be times where we're gonna have to talk about the reality of how people treat other people that claim to be Christians or whatnot.

So I think that we gotta talk about that.

But I think ending it or coming to some sort of close landing the plane somewhere around here needs to end on a positive note, too.

And I think that's.

That's where I want to shift a little bit to what are the great things that are coming from such a horrid setting of events, your event and Charlie Kirk and the school shootings.

What are the good things, even if they're not happy things?

What are the good things that are coming from these things?

Well, I'll tell you what.

When you think about certain times when tragedies happen, I can imagine that the people that were surrounding the events of what happened with Charlie Kirk, and I would assume you can correct me if I'm wrong, that it happened to some degree on your campus, but I would think they're not that different than when 911 happened.

We talked about 911 on the show before and how for a while afterwards there was such a dramatic shift to where people were nicer to one another, they were making more room for one another, they were more patient with one another, they supported one another a little bit more.

They saw more of the humanity around them in a new way, in a fresh way.

Now, eventually they get back to.

I mean, it was New York, so eventually somebody's going to just tell everybody.

But across the country, I felt like there was a period of time.

There was a period of time where people were just a little nicer and even more respectful to our law enforcement and our fire officers who were out there.

And there was more attention to things like that.

So I think, you know, did you experience that on your college campus where people just took a little more time?

Yeah, of course.

I think, you know, many of the students affected are generally, most of them, way nicer to everybody because it's, you know, like everything we talk about situations like these that just forcefully, unfortunately strip some of those barriers off our hearts.

Because we all sit there and think, wow, death is real.

You know, death is real.

And that's what makes us realize our.

Humanity, I mean, considering our own mortality, is definitely a positive thing to think through.

Right?

It's one of those things that you start thinking, okay, am I living the life that I would want to live if I had to die tomorrow?

When I turned 20, I actually.

I had this, like, existential crisis when I turned 20, when I was, like, no longer a teenager, I had this.

It was so weird.

Like, people.

You can laugh at me if you want to, but, like, I went from, like, oh, I'm a teenager to, oh, my gosh, I'm just an adult.

I'm going to die.

And, like, it was so weird.

And my.

My mom, of all people, she watches this.

So.

Hi, Mom.

My mom, of all people was like, hey, you know, so calm down.

Let me ask you a question.

If you were to die tomorrow, would you be happy with how you've lived your life?

And I hadn't really considered that question before she asked me.

And I thought, no.

No, I'm not.

In so many different ways, I'm not.

And I'll tell you this.

When you look at questions like that and you take them to heart, you can start to dramatically change the way you live your life, the way way you view people.

You know, there was a scare early on in my wife and I's relationship or for a period of time, there was a reality that I could lose her at any moment.

There was.

I don't know if I've.

Did I share that?

Yeah, you've talked about it.

There was an unruptured aneurysm in her brain behind her eye.

And later on, it was a miracle that I could get into at another time.

But here's the thing.

It made that relationship.

It changed a lot of things really fast.

And it was early on in our relationship that you start to not get in stupid fights.

You start to not hold on to things and just realize that things are more precious.

And I looked at her the way I think I should have looked at her, you know, not that I wasn't.

Not that it wasn't.

I mean, there was always something about my wife that I loved about.

But, like, you know, there is something that was super special about realizing, oh, man, I.

Life is so precious.

I could.

Any moment, she could be gone from my life.

I need to cherish her while I have her.

And I think we get so.

We get so jaded to life that it takes something to sometimes wake us up and give us the reality that, you know, this really is precious and people really are precious.

And so, yeah, getting back to what I was saying it's like, you know, that's something I do see that comes positive out of that, where people are willing to love on each other a little bit more and be open to one another a little bit more.

And like I said earlier in the show to see that more people going to church, you know, I was gonna.

Say there's a spiritual awakening and eyes of people and being able to see the things of the spiritual realm are coming alive.

And so it's been wild.

And if you're looking for where God is moving in all of these situations, look at what, who he's bringing to your churches, right?

Like that's where you need to be moving to is speaking into their lives, loving on them, you know, helping, helping them process things that they've gone through, but also just being, being there to go through life with, with them.

You know, I mean, that's one of the biggest and most fun things that we can be called to.

One of the hardest things we can be called to is it's just going through life with, with one another.

And so that's, that's a big thing like, that you should be looking at in, in your churches is like with all of the influx of people who are stepping into those churches, are you gonna meet them where they are?

Because if you just let it slip, it, it'll, it'll be known that, you know, they think that whatever it is that you've got going on is fake at that point, you know, and they're looking to it as something that's real because of the way that those, those who are in those situations have reacted to it.

So specifically with the Charlie Kirk situation, like how his family, how his friends have reacted to it.

And they didn't take to the streets burning things.

They were civil and had some love and compassion towards people, which there wasn't a lot of slander and hate.

It was really nice.

I tell you that There were some organizations that even really surprised me.

Not that I thought that they were negative organizations necessarily, but like, for instance, now I come from Baltimore, so I gotta preface this because I'm an Orioles fan, okay?

Because I'm an Orioles fan, Yankees are the enemy.

But that night, the night it happened, that the Charlie Kirk assassination happened, the Yankees were playing and they lit up Yankee Stadium with a memorial to, in a moment of silence, to Charlie Kirk.

What a stand up thing to do.

And even as a guy that hasn't been a fan of the Yankees, my life, it's like, man, you know what respect.

Thank you for Taking the moment, you know, and some people view New York as a whole.

Well, especially that surrounding area as a very other side from Charlie Kirk.

But what a way to stand up and start.

Kind of like start the movement of like, no, we're gonna.

We're gonna acknowledge this.

This is wrong.

And it was.

It was beautiful, and it was simple, and it was just like, thank you for being willing to do that.

And.

And I love it.

Love it so much.

And there's been more.

More organizations, and you're right, there have been some who have been let go of their jobs because they were speaking opposite things.

Well.

And that also can.

I know it's not a positive thing for those people, but it cleaned up a nasty workplace that you didn't know was nasty until those people decided to speak their minds.

But also, it's causing people to have a little bit more of a backbone and what is right and wrong in society.

And the whole thing is, it took completely.

You're not gonna lose your job over your thinking that this political belief or that political belief.

But praising somebody who's been murdered, praising the fact that they've been murdered, that's morally wrong on all the sides.

Right.

Nobody's disagreeing with that part of it.

On both of the normal political sides.

I think the idea that we've shook in complacency a little bit and that.

That, that.

That can be a positive thing in a lot of ways.

You know, complacency kills me.

I think this.

These events, like, this is just like the shedding.

Like these horrible events becomes the shedding of secularization, where the, you know, those.

Those two people standing in the middle, they actually can.

Those.

They can be even further towards the extremes and still find that common ground.

Right?

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah, I agree.

That is an amazing moment where, yeah.

People can kind of put their stuff aside and that, unfortunately, that is.

Why does it take tragedy to do it?

Is the part that always gets me.

I mean, I remember thinking, when I grew up, we had funerals a lot.

I had a bunch of older relatives, and I felt like we had funerals all the time, and there was relatives I only saw at funerals.

And I thought to myself, why is it always a funeral?

Right?

Why does it take one of these.

Why does it take something negative for us to have these positives?

Like, I wish we could stay on top of it.

But you're right.

It's the complacency.

It's the complacency that starts to.

People kind of jade back and go, well, you Know, it's not really me.

It kind of reawakens you to, like, man, this could be you.

Exactly.

People wanted to frame Charlie Kirk's thing in all kinds of different ways.

Let them try to frame it however they want, but we know the truth of it.

He was outspoken.

He was very faithful.

He wanted that to be the forefront of everything he did.

People take the gospel as an offensive thing, but it was meant to be because we're not supposed to be okay with the other things, and one's going to attack the other.

But the kind of hate that had to try to stop it is incredible.

We can't accept that kind of hate.

We can't continue to have a regular normalization of violence in the way we speak to one another and how we react with one another.

We can't have that and then think that we're gonna progress.

I think we just found our common ground here.

Right?

So.

All right, so in closing, is there anything that you want to say, like, final thoughts?

Yeah, I mean, really, it's just that, you know, anyone who's suffered from things like this, my heart goes out to you, and you really aren't alone.

I'm telling you.

Unfortunately, it's an unfortunate truth, but we're everywhere.

You know, people who've been in situations like me and just.

You got this.

That's what I'll say.

You got this.

And always trust the Lord.

Cool.

You got anything, really?

I just want to thank you, Christian, for coming on and giving you perspective.

This is one of those things that, you know, is jarring to hear sometimes, but it's good to know.

It's good to know how you were able to get through it and that you're willing to come up and talk about it.

And it helps give perspective.

It helps, you know, make it more real for some.

And so we hope that.

I hope that everyone listening and watching this podcast, I hope that this, you know, helped you in some way.

Maybe it was perspective once again or what?

Maybe it was something that you were working with within yourself.

Yeah.

And don't forget to, like, subscribe.

Comment, comment, comment, share.

Comment.

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We need it on the YouTube.

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We're growing.

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We've got.

Christian has promised to promote us.

I did.

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Come on, man.

Yeah, so, like, subscribe.

So we're getting there.

We're getting there.

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Our listens in the first 24 hours are not in a great place as far as like Spotify and all that so be sending out the Spotify's to people too you know like share it in all the different platforms.

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Thank you for chilling with us for this 224th episode or whatever.

Thank you for who you guys are and what you guys do and we just hope and pray that you guys are gaining something from it.

Amen to that.

Amen.

If you are throw a comment in.

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