What do you think of Detroit?

When you think of Detroit, what do you think of Motor City, Motown,

but do you ever think about their public transportation today?

After this interview, you will.

I'm Paul Comfort and this is Transit Unplugged, the number one podcast

for mass transit around the world.

On today's episode, I interview Robert Kramer.

He is executive director of the Detroit Department of Transportation.

And he's chairman of the board and acting CEO of the people mover

elevated rail system around the city.

I went to Detroit a month or two ago and I mean, I had a fantastic time.

I didn't know hardly anything about Detroit.

I've only been to the airport.

I didn't know it was right across the river from Canada.

And you actually looked south to see Canada, uh, in Detroit and.

I didn't know about their fantastic three layer transit operations there

with the RTA and SMART with my buddy Dwight, and then here the De Detroit

Department of Transportation and the People Mover elevated three mile

loop around the city, which is free.

I. We went there, we filmed an episode of Transit Unplugged tv,

which is fascinating, and it's on the air this week on , YouTube.

You're gonna need to, after you listen to this podcast, you're gonna want

to go right there and see everything you've heard Robert talk about.

He's become a good pal of mine now.

We hung around and he showed me all kinds of amazing things in the city.

I was very impressed.

You know, uh, the downtown area is under re big time renovation.

The transit service serves it well and is getting even better

under the helm of Robert Kramer.

Listen to this podcast and come away amazed at the resurgence

of the city of Detroit.

Alright.

I'm in Detroit Motor City.

I'm with Robert Kramer, who is CEO of a lot of trans.

Here in the city and we're sitting on the people mover.

Yep.

Uh, we are, we are here, uh, people mover elevated three

mile, uh, downtown circulator.

Uh, we're almost 38 years old.

And, um, it's really kind of the center of the hub, the hub and

spoke system for the entire region.

And also connects with, uh, DDOT and Smart, which are the, , city

and suburban bus providers.

The streetcar goes right through the, uh, the edge of our, uh, alignment

here and, uh, with direct, uh, hotels, convention centers, parks, but also.

A growing number of, uh, residential buildings and uses downtown, , people

who are really through all of those changes continues to be

a great asset to get go around.

And it's free.

It is free.

Yeah.

, Last year we had our first year of, uh, fair free and, uh, we saw 80% increase

in ridership from the year before, which was our first full year open after COVID.

But really what we saw, we have a original, fair, fair equipment

system and, , not only the cost, but the fact that you could.

Transfer from other modes and you also couldn't use any, uh, mobile

payment or anything electronic was a barrier for everyone.

Yeah.

In all different ways.

And so we had an opportunity to test it out.

We actually got, uh, created a new sponsorship program, signed up a

sponsor for the whole year, and basically that made sure that at least

our first year was budget neutral and allowed U.S. to kind of test it out.

And like I said, the results were fantastic.

Who was the sponsor, , priority waste.

They're, they've signed up to continue for this year as well.

Um, but they, you know, they, they signed up for U.S. to

have, um, to try out the system.

They believed in, uh, kinda where we were headed as a, as a

transportation mobility option.

And, uh, we're really, we're grateful for that.

So you'll see their yellow branding actually right outside the window here.

There's the, there's a badge we have on each station.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

And that allowed U.S. to try it out.

And like I said, the results were, were great.

And really, um, even just from a business case perspective,

if we were ever gonna start.

Are collecting fears.

Again, our estimate is we need to invest about $5 million to

replace the fair collection system, which is like five year return on

investment just to Yes, like the dog.

Yeah.

So it's a pretty easy, uh, a pretty easy case.

And like I said, it's been great as far as really helping U.S. expand the influence

and benefits we have for the city.

And it's all elevated.

Yeah.

Everything is, is up in the air.

Uh, provides opportunity for a lot of, uh, transit related puns.

You know, we're, we're above everyone else, all that sort of thing.

But it really is, um, we, we, we did a, . Customers, , satisfaction

survey this past summer, you know, onboard in person engagements, and

we found, , quite a few riders that were riding with no destination.

So if you think about it, it's, it's just, it's three miles.

15 minutes gets you one trip around.

I've been on board with people from out of town that will ride around once looking

out one side, and then they get up and they move to the other side and look

out the other window and ride it around.

It's a great way to see basically all of the downtown, , you're, you're along

the river looking down, uh, to our part, uh, our, uh, neighbors to the south.

Canada, you're visiting all of the districts around the downtown

area for free, and you can kind of scout out lay of the land.

You know, it's like a roundabout, right?

The worst you can do is have to ride around until you get to your stop.

And it's just something that, you know, uh, it is, can be

beneficial in so many ways.

It's really a great economic development tool, but also really

does, , serve to connect, , transit and mobility options for everybody.

Last night we were here, you showed U.S.

around downtown.

Talk to U.S. some about how the down.

Town is so unique.

, The sport teams are all close by.

You've got, uh, it's just,

it's pretty cool the way it's laid out.

Yeah.

Downtown Detroit, is really a very unique, interesting place.

Of course, founded in 1701, so there's a long history here is a

French, uh, fur trading post actually.

But just right where they landed on the Detroit River is, is in Heart

Plaza, which we were yesterday.

Yeah, there's a marker there.

Yeah.

We went and saw it.

Yeah.

And, and just, you know, up from there, you, you've got, uh, campus

Marsh is kind of the center of town From there, all of the, the paths.

Radiate out, uh, used to be, uh, trading trails turned into, uh, major spokes that

go out to not only all, all corners of the city, but also to all of the suburbs

that kind of surround the, the metro area.

So downtown, uh, a pretty compact area has a similar layout to Washington, DC

where you have, you have hubs and spokes.

All the streets are diagonal.

There's nothing that's north, south, east, west.

And that was part of the, the judge, uh, Augustus Woodward

plan after the fire of 1805.

Then only stick around for a little bit, so we need.

Get to Grand Circus Park.

That's as far as it goes.

From there, it turns into more of a traditional, , grid pattern.

, But just downtown there's, there's tons of great views because you

have all of the streets at different angles and then everything oriented

toward the river on, on Woodward too,

and,

uh, you're right next to Canada.

Talk about that.

I mean, I can see Canada from my hotel room.

I've got history even in my family of people immigrating

from, from Europe through Canada.

There's, there's people who have, , families that are supposed

to split on both sides of the border.

There's quite a few people, especially, um, especially

in healthcare and automotive.

There's a lot of people who live in Canada or residents there and actually commute,

, to the U.S. every day for, for their jobs.

And

you've got a tunnel and a bridge.

Yeah, we have a, a tunnel, uh, which was built first, but

both, both over a hundred years ago.

, The Bridge Ambassador Bridge is built in the twenties and, uh, we're

closing in on opening the Gordy How Bridge, which is a brand new bridge.

It's a little bit farther down , the river.

But, , Detroit is by some measure the busiest, , international

crossing, certainly with Canada.

, I was actually talking to someone yesterday that the.

Estimate they have is on the Ambassador Bridge.

They have somewhere between 11 to 13,000 trucks every day that cross the bridge.

A lot of those parts, of course, it's kind of a sensitive topic these days because

that's those parts that are actually moving back and forth, be across the

border as they go through the different stages of manufacturing and engineering,

but a very busy and important crossing.

But there's also a lot of shared history and culture between the two sides as well.

And you've got the four major sports teams

all within a stone's throw,

right?

Yeah.

Yeah, the only major city that's got the, we have the, the Red Wings,

which are NHL, the pistons are NBA Lions, NFL, tigers, MLB, all those

are within three facilities that are within a half a mile of each other.

That's amazing, man.

Yeah, so if you think about, you know, it's, it's uh, from

a traffic and mobility, , management perspective, there's a lot of effort

and really it is a unique day when there isn't something going on downtown between

those venues and the convention center.

Yeah.

We're going back right now, the, uh, Hudson.

Site.

So this is the , former, , largest or second largest department store in

the world, has been redeveloped and is close to opening, , a tower that will

be the second tallest in Michigan.

And then a platform building with event space that's gonna be the

new headquarters of General Motors.

This is something developed by, uh, uh, Dan Gilbert, bedrock Properties

part, the Quicken Loans family.

, Really an incredible asset of the city and right next to our Cadillac

Center people mover station.

So there's work going on right now about how we could improve.

, The station and the, the sidewalk and the area around it to make sure we

have like a really, , well designed experience to connect that station,

potentially enhance it into a mobility hub with, uh, smart curb space

and autonomous vehicles and stuff.

But it's right in the shadow of this new building and a great

opportunity for the people who were to kind of grow into the future.

. Paul Comfort: And you were mentioning that this system got started in 87.

Yeah.

So have you had rehabs done?

Well?

We've got a, a really aggressive program as far as the inspecting

and maintaining the guideway.

So it's all concrete, super structure.

, Inch by inch, the whole system.

It's in great shape.

The cars are original.

We've actually, uh, we haven't done any major overhauls, but we're actually

have purchased Toronto Scarborough Line in Toronto, which just closed,

was a Canadian sister system to U.S.

built basically same factory, same timeframe.

They made a decision to close their system.

They, they needed more track investment that.

We had taken care of, but they had invested more in their cars.

We've actually purchased their cars that have had a midlife overhaul.

We're making some adjustments to those.

And, uh, we're aiming the next 12 to 15 months we're actually gonna

replace our fleet with their cars.

So Robert, we just switched now from your people mover to the bus.

At which station were we at?

Uh, we were at the Rosa Parks Transit Center, which is

our, uh, main, , bus transfer center.

It's, , right adjacent to two people mover stops, uh, downtown.

So it provides a lot of, uh, opportunities for connections and, uh, it is our,

it's our largest, uh, transit facility.

. Paul Comfort: So Detroit is, um, a little.

Complex in how I would say the structure of public transportation

agents use their design.

Walk me through how it works here.

Sure.

So, , RTA, which is the Regional Transit Authority, they're a state

enabled, , authority, and they are the ones that handle, uh, the state and

federal funding that comes to the region.

Uh, they do long, long term planning.

Uh, they, worked on some initiatives, and also recently they took over operation

of the Q line, which is the street car.

. Then you have, uh, operators.

Ann Arbor is actually part of the RTA, even though it's a separate UCA, so

Ann Arbor's an operator, but then in the, in the Detroit region, you've

got, uh, smart, which is the suburban bus agency, also a direct recipient.

You've got ddot, which is the, is a city department, , fixed route and paratransit.

And that's where you're director?

Correct.

That's I'm director of, uh, of ddot.

And then, uh, you have, uh, people mover, which is owned

and operated by a, a public.

Corporation essentially.

That's I'm the CEO of.

So it's really, um, and each one of those agencies has different funding.

So DI and the People mover get, uh, city General Fund dollars

that support it as a subsidy.

Uh, SMART has a smart, actually has a, uh, a, uh, property tax

millage that funds their operations.

, And then, you know, the, the Q line and all the agencies get

a, a good, good amount of, uh, state and federal support as well.

And then because.

As you're so close to Canada, it's right on the river here.

You told me you have a bus service coming over here from Canada.

Yeah, transit.

Windsor currently runs, uh, the tunnel bus, which is, goes

through the tunnel of course.

, And is, uh, a commute option really.

There's a, like I mentioned before, there's a number of people

who live in Canada, uh, that work over here in the States.

Um, and then they also run some extra special event service because, you

know, there's a decent number of uh, uh, you know, Detroit sports fans

that are across the border as well.

. Paul Comfort: And all those, uh.

Sports teams.

You mentioned earlier, the four major leagues, you've got good

access to them by transit, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

So, um, smart and DDOT both have, , quality service on Woodward,

which kind of runs right through the middle of all of them, Q Line.

The Streetcar also has a stop that's, uh, the first, , transit only lane

in the state, uh, is there to help get through some of that congestion.

And then the people mover has a stop that's, uh, about two or three

blocks from all of them as well.

In Grand Circus Park and Broadway are both kind of nearby, so tons of options,

whether you're commuting in on transit, we exit through the rear door, or

whether you're, driving down in parking and then looking to circulate around.

, There's a lot of options to, uh, to get around the downtown.

Oh, there's also Mogo, I forgot to mention.

Oh yeah.

So Mogo was a, a non-profit that was started, , a number of years

ago that has stations all around the downtown and Midtown, which

is kind of farther up Woodward.

Um, and it's a great option.

It's the, the, uh.

Uh, fixed stations, so you've gotta ride and, and park the bike

at a station when you go around.

, But really has been, uh, an incredible asset and it's something that's also

linked in with all those other options to get people around the downtown.

And recently it started expanding north, um, into some of the

entering suburbs as well.

That's

great.

We'll be right back and Robert I'm gonna ask you to

talk about your, personal career when we come back this work.

Hey friends, it's Paul Comfort host of Transit Unplugged, and I've

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Now let's get back to the conversation.

And now we're back with Robert Kramer, who is, uh, tell U.S. your full title.

, Robert Cramer: So I'm the Executive Director of Transit

for the City of Detroit, and that includes the role of director of

ddot, which is City Department.

And I'm the CEO of Detroit Transportation Corporation, which is

the public, uh, public corporation that owns and operates the people.

. Paul Comfort: And how did you get, tell U.S. about your background.

So how'd you get to this job and how long have you been here?

, Robert Cramer: So this in my.

Current expanded role.

This is my, uh, what month is it?

April?

This is my fourth month.

Okay.

I started right after the first of the year.

, before that I was at just the people mover, uh, as general manager

for about two and a half years.

And prior to that, I worked at, uh, smart, which is the suburban

provider for over 10 years.

There I was, , acting gm Deputy General Manager and actually started

there in the grants department.

, Prior to that, , my education and, uh.

First career was in, uh, community and transportation planning.

So graduated from Michigan State University and worked for a small

consulting firm for about seven years.

And we did a combination there of, uh, community of zoning and, and site

plans and stuff all the way up to, and especially working with, , the

state and county agencies on, , access management transit corridor

planning, , and, uh, you know, traffic improvement, uh, sort of activities.

, And then that, saw an opportunity.

To get smart, , in grants was kind of a little bit different track, uh,

but uh, allowed me to kind of take, take all the stuff I learned and

build on it in the public sector.

And, uh, then that's led one thing led to another, to this great opportunity.

And, and, uh, how has Mike l Oglesby involved in all

this, our buddy from now in Tucson?

Well, so, um, when Mikel came up to, uh, ddot, it was right

around the time of the pandemic, which is obviously, just a, a crazy time.

For everyone, but especially for transit.

So he joined, , DDOT around that time and, um, that time more than ever.

It was just super important to have that coordination and partnership between

transit agencies, not just to support the riders and the drivers in particular,

who were really, um, put in a, um, just a incredible situation to be out on the

road as really, uh, frontline, , staff, but also to support each other as we.

To work through the different challenges.

So I, I remember, uh, it was kind of a fascinating, uh, there's always

been different factions and, and agencies and I think that was really

opportunity to pull all of U.S. together.

We actually had for, for quite a while, probably a couple

months, there was a nightly call.

, The city, it was a ddot Smart, the Streetcar.

Uh, we had the state, we had a couple of the other, um, major agencies and

all of U.S. would get on the call.

It was either eight or nine at night and basically like, okay.

How did we survive that day?

What can we do to support each other?

How did you get the, uh, the touchless, uh, temperature check kiosks?

Remember, we, we, we found some of those and then kind

of helped everyone order them.

Yeah.

Or, uh, you know, how did you deal with the COVID policy?

How did you deal with the, uh, uh, sick workforce or, uh, check and

driver issues, whatever it might be, uh, passenger boarding policies.

So that was really, uh, Mikel came on in the middle of that and, and he and I.

Um, kind of hit it off to really coordinating and supporting

each other in the two systems.

And, um, from there, uh, there was an opportunity that came up, uh,

when he was in this role that I'm in now at ddot, uh, where he, he, he

kind of, uh, talked to me about an opport achievement, the people mover.

And, um, Jefferson, it sounded like a great challenge and something that

would be, uh, exciting and interesting.

It could make a big impact.

So I, um, you know, made that move and, , really it's been an incredible experience.

Stuff.

. Paul Comfort: How about your personal life?

Any, uh, any, uh, update on that where you're at?

Married kids, dogs, music.

. Robert Cramer: Uh, yeah.

I'm, , married, , have, uh, four children.

, One dog, , currently was two dogs until recently, but, um, yeah, one dog.

Uh, what kind of dog?

, We do rescue dogs.

Okay.

So she's, uh, we did the old send the swab over and she's, uh.

An eighth of eight different things.

Okay.

Yeah, that very helpful.

Yes.

A mud, she, she looks, yeah, a mud for sure.

Um, kind of has a great Pyrenees kind of coat and look to her, but she's, she's

only about 65 or 70 pounds, so it's kind of, but anyway, uh, that, that's my

actually, uh, as my, my nightly release.

, I take the, take the dog on a long walk, , around, , around where I live.

And, , that's a good, good release.

And of course, uh, she likes it as well.

So, um, yeah, that's, uh, my, uh, youngest, child.

My son is, uh, in college.

And, um,

everyone, everything's good.

Can't complain.

That's good.

And if you don't mind me asking or saying, you look great, you've

lost a lot of weight recently.

You're my new hero.

Yeah.

Well, yeah.

There's, there's, uh, you know, something to be said for, a low carb lifestyle.

Let's put it that, I know we've, we've talked about that a little bit, but, uh,

yeah, it's, it's, it's really important, you know, um, even going to the CEO's

conference, uh, it is important to, to.

Realize that there's a lot, a lot riding on how successful that we can

be as leaders, but also to make sure that we can support each other as well.

I think, you know, taking care of our ourselves, you know, mental and physical

wellbeing is, is really important.

It is,

yeah.

I just think I mentioned to you like, just about less than a year ago, I,

I really decided I have to focus on my personal life and not kind of just

react and respond to it, but be the author of my, what my personal life

is gonna be, you know, and so like you now I'm, I'm doing a walk every day.

Know every morning, usually for the last nine months, unless it's

pouring down rain, uh, and trying to eat better too with low carbs.

I've lost 20 and got another 50 to go.

But, uh, you're right.

I, I wanted to comment on it because a lot of guys and gals that are

in this role that I've been in, and you are in currently a CEO,

it takes a toll on you physically.

You don't get to eat, right.

I mean, I used to, you know, I was working 12 hour days basically, right?

Leave the house at seven in the morning, get home at seven at night combo.

Yeah.

And um, you know, sometimes you just eat whatever.

Fast food you have to get and all that stuff.

Yeah,

yeah.

Absolutely.

It, it's, um, but I think what makes it, as I'm sure you experienced too, uh, as

a, as a public service, uh, and knowing that there's not only so many people at

the organization that you're at that are counting on you to support them and help

them and, and help them have the tools they need to do their job every day.

But it's even more important because their ability to do their job impacts literally

tens of thousands of people every day.

Yeah.

So.

It's, uh, you do have to be careful that you're, you know,

uh, taking care of yourself.

, But I think, you know, transit as an industry, , it's easy to get up

and come to work every day, even on the tough days because you know that

kind of impact you have on people.

Isn't that wonderful?

I love that about what we do.

We pretty cool.

Yeah.

We're, we are helping and I love, you know, I'm all about paratransit.

Personally.

I've spent a lot of my career in that.

Helping people that don't have other options is big.

Yeah.

I think, , like you said, whether it's paratransit, but.

But even just connecting people to healthcare, to employment, to give

them the freedom and, and support that they need to be able to have a

high quality of life without having to, to figure out a way to afford it.

This incredible cost of owning and operating a car.

Um, if, if they're able to do that, um, it's just so important to the, the

quality of life in our communities.

Yeah, and I guess that'd be my last question.

, And that is, so we're in Motor City here, right?

This is the birthplace of the American automobile industry really.

And yet you've got a strong transit system.

Yeah, we've, we've got a lot of, , we've got a lot of support.

I think we've got a long way to go.

, And, and any transit system hopefully would say that they could

always do, do more and improve.

, But starting with the coordination, you know, we mentioned all these

different agencies, sometimes that feels like it's counterproductive.

But I think that Jefferson, the important thing is to coordinate those services

and think about the customer experience.

That's something that really, for me.

Personally, the People mover.

The People mover kind of forced me to think about that more than I had at smart.

Really focusing on what are the things, the little things and big

things you can do to make the customer experience the best it can be.

And when you do that, then you build the quality of the service.

It's more convenient, it's attractive, which then makes it better.

And it just, all that builds on itself.

But, but that's really starting with what are the things we can do

from a customer service standpoint.

Thinking about it that way, almost, almost in the hospitality

realm, what are the things we can do to really make this an asset?

We're never gonna be able to almost welcome board, almost gonna be

able to drive faster than someone in their own personal automobile

going directly from space to space.

That doesn't mean that we can't, , you know, make the, the experience and

the service and the affordability and the connectivity can still

be a great asset to people.

If we really think focus on that part is making sure we

think about customer experience.

I. Every day.

Thank you for listening to this week's episode

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