Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction. This is your host, Dr. G, and our music is written and produced by Mike Sullivan. Today, this is a really interesting article that was published in the LA Times, and it's a really good timing because we just recently spoke with Shelby Bobosky about the puppy mill pipeline to Texas, and now we're going to be talking about the puppy mill pipeline to California. So from the LA Times, we have two investigative reporters. We have Melody Gutierrez and Alene Tchekmedyian. Welcome to The Junction. Thank you for being here. Thanks. Thank you for having us. So, uh, Melody, do you want to start by telling us about your background and where you come from and how you ended up at the LA Times as an investigative reporter?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I've been a reporter for over two decades and started off with a small town newspaper in 29 palms in Southern California. and worked my way up. I've worked at the Sacramento Bee, the San Francisco Chronicle, and ultimately, um, have been a reporter at the L. A. Times now. Um, I've covered politics, healthcare politics, all sorts of, uh, animal related legislation over the years, um, and actually started off as a sports reporter. So I've covered the gamut of any kind of reporting and have been an investigative reporter for about two years now.

Awesome. How about you, Alene?

Yeah, I joined the times in 2016. And before that, I had also worked at smaller community papers in Glendale in Los Angeles County and Burbank. Um, and when I joined the times, I also have done a range of papers. Topics in terms of be coverage. I started off doing breaking news. And then I've also covered courts, law enforcement and criminal justice.

Awesome. And if you're watching this on YouTube, she is not hiding from us. She's just not able to share her video. So, um, so let's start talking about the, about this. What, what drove you to investigate this?

We actually started off working on a completely different story, um, so our entry into this was a little bit different and so we were looking at how could we possibly look, uh, look at the number of dogs coming into California and while talking to, um, Mindy Callison at Bailing Out Benji, she had mentioned that there are these records called Certificates of Veterinary Inspection. And that she had actually been looking at him for California because, you know, she had seen that there were these dogs disappearing, um, into California and what she meant by that was, you know, the records, the certificates of veterinary inspection were listing fake names, fake addresses. And she couldn't figure out where these dogs were going. And so that was part of what like drove us to start looking at, you know, well, where are these dogs going and what can we possibly determine, um, not only just about like those dogs, but as we started going and trying to get these records, we realized like one, it's not easy because California deletes these records or there's no way of getting them in California. And when we started to go to other states and start analyzing, we ended up counting 88, 000 dogs coming into California since 2019, uh, sorry, 2018, and, you know, started to see a lot of trends in that data.

One of the things that our listeners may not realize is that there is a law against selling animals for retail in California, right? Can you, can one of you explain a little bit about that?

Yeah, so actually, California was the 1st state to implement that type of law. And in 2017, they, uh, passed this law to ban the sale of cats and dogs and rabbits, I think, in, uh, pet stores. And so in order to get a dog from a pet store, it had to be a rescue or a dog from a shelter and they can have adoption events, but you couldn't buy commercially bred dogs from pet stores in California. And they strengthened those laws over over the years. Um, you know, there was some issues with dogs from commercially bred facilities being passed off as rescues and so they change the law again to close that loophole and, that was kind of a big part of our, our investigation because we found that, the unintended consequence of those laws was sort of pushing this market, the puppy trade in California underground.

So the dogs that you were, that we were looking into, um, basically what you're saying is that they were not being sold by pet stores. They were being sold directly to individuals or were there some that were ending up in pet stores?

We found that there were actually brokers like middlemen that kind of were substituting for pet stores in California. And this was like a totally unregulated market because at pet stores, you could, you know, potentially see where the dog came from, you know, on the, cage, there's like, probably a cage card with some information, um, but the brokers that we identified in our reporting, were getting dogs from out of state. And then many of them were posing as breeders, or saying that they bred the dogs themselves. And passing them off as locally bred, you know, like I'm a small home breeder. These dogs live in my home with me. They're spoiled. Um, but they were actually being born at mass facility, mass breeding facilities out of state.

And these are brokers, like the, these are people that live in California.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, basically, I mean, for, for our listeners that do not quite understand how this whole thing works is usually you have a breeder who is the individual that is conducting the breeding, but then we have the brokers, which tend to be the individuals that go from point A to point B, right? So they, they go and pick up the animals from the breeder, and then they take them to the destination where they're going to be sold. Um, so what is it that you found out as you started looking into this?

We found that there were a lot of the same names popping up over and over. So, you know, in the absence of a pet store being able to sell in bulk, there are people who kind of took over that market. Um, and these are people, like Alene said, is like, you know, some of them, we were going on the websites and it's, you know, somebody who very much is saying, you know, on a breeding website that they are a breeder of this particular type of dog and, you know, they had a steady flow of dogs available, puppies available. In some cases, you know, it was somebody who would turn and sell them on Craigslist or Facebook or, you know, other places like social media type of places. But you were seeing it was the same names in the story. And so we have about, in our analysis, we were looking at people who sold more than 80 dogs, like who had imported more than 80 dogs. Um, you know, those are primarily puppies. That's just what the market is, um, uh, since the, the law changed in 2019. So while our California's law was, uh, passed in 2017, it was delayed until 2019, uh, 2019 was the first year it was effective. And so when we started looking at these names, you know, there were the same people who were really kind of the primary importers of dogs. There's still a lot of people who like will import one dog or two dogs. That's for themselves. But when we're looking at like bulk purchases like this, it was definitely like this is their business.

And from what I understand, like some of your findings were not just necessarily about the illegality of what they're doing, but the condition of the animals themselves, right? So what did you find as far as like the, the problems with the transport?

Well, some of the conditions start from the breeding facility. You know, a lot of these breeding facilities are USDA, which conducts regular inspections. And so those inspection reports are available online. And there's also like, you know, more detailed investigative reports that you can get through FOIA request to the federal government. We reviewed some of those records as well. Um, and some of the conditions of the breeding facilities that we highlighted it that we're sending dogs to California. Are just, you know, they have, um, violation after violation for not, you know, getting dogs with illnesses. Medical care quickly enough, um, you know, there's like, open there, there's videos and photos from these inspections and from these complaint investigations with dogs with untreated ear infections or open wounds on their feet, because they live on, you know, um, wire crates. Um, and so that was pretty startling to see for us, the conditions of some of these facilities and the violations that continue to come and that they're cited for and allowed to continue to operate after that.

Yeah, so basically, I mean, they separate these, these puppies from their mom at a very early age and they have to, legally, they have to wait until they're eight weeks of age, but realistically, I mean, they can falsify records and make the puppies be born at a different time, like, even even the, the records can be mishandled to, to be able to sell an animal at a younger age. And these dogs are, are very vulnerable. I mean, they, we're talking about tiny infant puppies that who knows what the, you know, if they've been eating properly, having proper water, nutrition, medication, a lot of these breeders just do their own vaccines. They do their own treatments for things. And then they're taking all of these puppies with vulnerable immune systems and shoving them into a vehicle and then transporting them for, you know, like so many miles and miles and miles. Where, where are the, the most common places where you saw these animals were being bred, uh, to be transported to California?

We're definitely seeing, I mean, Midwest, um, which is, you know, where our concentration definitely is for larger mass breeding facilities. But what actually surprised us was the number in Ohio. Um, that has been a number, you know, most states, we saw a decrease since the law went into effect, um, for, you know, places that are mass breeding facilities, they want to sell in bulk, right? Like they're, that's their business model is to sell the puppies in bulk. They don't want to sell. Individually to consumers, that's not typically their model for some of these larger facilities. They can sell to the broker who could then do that. But for the most part, like you were seeing these numbers decline other than Ohio, which we saw, you know, quite a large increase in the number of puppies coming from Ohio into California in the aftermath of the law change. Um, but, you know, I think to your point on like how they're getting to California, the transportation part is like incredibly fascinating. And we did. You know, when we went to the Midwest, we were going to these veterinary clinics, um, and knocking on the door of breeding facilities and trying to see for ourselves. Right. And it's not the, uh, open door policy that, uh, you might hope. Um, but when we were watching the white vans pull up to veterinary clinics and, you know, you're seeing, like, even in the records, how many documents are signed per day for puppies just for California. Like it's. It's, you know, obvious that like this is a health certificate, but the, you know, it did make us question like, you know, what does this exam look like if they're able to get through that many puppies and put them in these transport vans? It's a, you know, from Missouri to California is a two day straight drive. Driving partners, uh, drive straight through, drive back, you know, there were just so many questions about, like, how that process works. And you're right, like, for a vulnerable small puppy to go from, uh, you know, in the case of a, uh, a bad breeding facility, then to a transport for two days into California, and then when they get here, and, you know, where are they being kept? Because that's one of the things that we were looking at in this investigation is, um, You know, without, um, with these records not being readily available, there really is no one checking to see where they're ending up and how, what the conditions are at the places that, you know, that are selling these dogs. And in one case that we highlighted, it was a very hot garage where animals were clearly suffering.

You know, we have, there are, there are laws for like livestock that they can only be transported for a certain amount of time and then they have to be fed and watered and they have to be exercised. And with these puppies being in these vans, which I'm assuming they're just unmarked vans, there's nobody that's going to be making sure that these puppies are being given any food or water. I'm sure that they're not getting taken out of the cages and exercised or being allowed to, to move around. Um, so they're, Most likely sitting in their own filth in whatever condition these vehicles are for, you know, you said two days from Missouri and then add another, uh, what, 16 hours or so from Ohio, if they're coming from here.

Yeah, it's definitely an interesting thing to look at. Like, and I know transporters are, you know, typically, I think, um, USDA. Certified and I know there are inspections. It doesn't mean that there's an inspection, obviously, of every van taking off from those, uh, those hubs, which is really also another interesting thing to watch is like these like vans pulling in on like delivery days. And like, it's it's a well oiled machine in certain communities in the Midwest that one of the places that we highlighted West Point, Iowa, you know, we use this statistic that there are, you know, more breeding dogs than people. Like, it's just, there was a really startling, um, fact there, like, that it's clearly a very prominent business in that, like, small community.

As I have been looking into puppy mills and, and these individuals who are definitely not breeding for, For the health and for the betterment of the breed. It's literally all for profit. I have seen a lot of these very high volume breeders and brokers that are coming from Iowa and they're just, you know, picking up animals from all over the place and then taking them to, to different locations and when, and yeah, when you go into the USDA, it's very difficult to navigate the USDA system, partly because of how it's set up, but then also because some of these breeders and brokers just change their name. So if they get enough issues, then they just change their name and they're, it's a clean slate. So when you look into their, their past history, you're not going to find any, any problems. Right. Um, It's going to make it really difficult to, to look, you know, to, to find and be able to report and do something about it.

Yeah. We saw an example of a person who essentially, uh, Michelle Kruse, um, which is a last name that's pretty popular in, uh, Iowa because of Steve Kruse, who's a large, um, uh, you know, puppy mill operator. But in the paperwork, we couldn't figure out a name change to Julia Nichols. And like, ultimately we had it confirmed, like that's her middle name and maiden name or something along those lines. But, you know, just, we couldn't, we thought those were two people for a really long time.

Also the address is listed on their licenses. They are allowed to use like a mailing address or a PO box. And so we found a case in Indiana where there's like 16 breeders that are using the same two suites in a shopping center that's nowhere near like, well, we don't know where the facilities are, but it's definitely not the address listed on their license. So it's hard to figure out where these facilities are operating or under what conditions because of that as well.

You would think that the license is going to have the facility address. Because how, how does the USDA know where to go?

I mean, I think the inspectors have the facility address because they have to, you know, go there and conduct their regular inspections, but what's available to the public is whatever address they're allowed to put on, you know, their license. And so for the public, it's, there's kind of a lack of transparency there.

And definitely, but when you're trying to find their inspection reports. And you're seeing like the same names or they're using a new company name without an address. It's really hard to figure out. Is this the right person? And am I looking at the right inspection report? Um, for this individual, because it's just it's sometimes very difficult to understand, like, when, you know, there's a, you know, over 2000 breeders, um, you know, licensed by the USDA of breeders, transporters, and like being able to narrow down, like, you know, which person with the last name Smith, am I looking at, um, you have to have an address to really confirm it.

What were some of the issues that you found on the USDA reports from some of these breeders and brokers that were, that you were seeing commonly in your, in your, In your investigation.

Yeah, I think it's one like thing to like read through the inspections, and it feels completely different when you see the pictures and videos, um, and I, I understand like that, like, there are, it's just difficult sometimes to fully like explain like some of the, you know, you know, a bloody incision from a, you know, uh, former like, uh, insemination, like, and like what that looks like when it's pooling on the ground. And when you see the video of that, it's absolutely like, you know, gut wrenching. And in this, like, in our story, I know, like, we were trying to, you know, include some images, but honestly, like, some of them were without a description of, like, you know, warning graphic content. It was not, we weren't going to be able to, like, put that online. Um, and even the ones that we do have in there, I've heard from some people that they were so upsetting that they couldn't, like, continue reading the story. Um, which I think I don't think that that's true. I think everyone should still read the story by the way. Um, yes, but you know, like, I think that in those inspection reports, you do see like that some individuals can have citation, uh, you know, be cited over and over and over for failing to get their dog's veterinary care. Um, and that they just continue to operate.

Yeah, and the biggest issue that, like, I have found is when I'm looking at all these reports is that they will find something that needs corrected and then they give them the opportunity to correct it. And then they come back and a lot of these evaluations are announced, so they know when they're coming. So then they know, oh, when they were here last time, this dog was injured and it had open wounds and it's still looking horrible, so we're just gonna get rid of this dog altogether. Yeah. So then when they come into the investigation, Hey, a problem is solved. So then they'll mark it down as the, the issue has been corrected. And then they'll find other issues. Well, these are new issues, not the other issues. So then we're going to give you another, you know, 30, 90 days to correct that issue. And then that just allows these, these breeders and brokers that are constantly having problems to stay open. Like their, their licenses just never get taken out unless it's like a really, really egregious problem that they do.

Yeah, one of the people Melody mentioned, Steve Kruse, who's in West Point, Iowa has, I mean, the, the biggest, you know, punishment that we saw for him after, you know, all these pretty bad violations that we reviewed on the inspection reports was a 21 day uh, suspension and after that was over back in business.

Right, because that, that just means basically 21 days that he cannot sell or purchase. But it's not like he has to get rid of the animals that he has, right? So it's just really a 21 day break, would you say, on doing his business?

Exactly.

In that case, it's a little different because he has an arrangement with a former, uh, business partner and the business partner actually whelps the puppies. And so the business partner could still sell those puppies. He just, uh, Steve Kruse just couldn't transfer new dogs to him during that time, but they're on the same property operating as like, like in this arrangement. And so I don't know, like, you know, that we know whether or not it like actually hurt his bottom line, because if he had transferred enough dogs over to be whelped, it might not have been a huge difference in, um, in that punishment.

Yeah, and if the paperwork is not being monitored properly, then at any point they can say, no, these were my puppies, right? Like they can just assume ownership. I mean, he, realistically, he can just give up ownership to somebody else during that, during that process. And then the other person is free to do whatever they want with them, like sell them or, you know, whatever.

Yeah, I think, like, the biggest thing for me in this investigation is, like, for me, like, I think most people know puppy mills are bad, right? Like, they, like, no one, like, wants to buy a puppy mill, like, a dog from a puppy mill, um, and, like, the enforcement of them is definitely, you know, You know, something that like nationally is like a concern for a lot of people. And it's the way that these dogs end up in people's homes and they have no idea that they have now supported a puppy mill. Like that was really interesting to me. It's just, the system is designed to, like, create this opaqueness that, like, makes it very difficult to understand, like, where is this pipeline and, like, and did you just contribute to an industry that you, like, say you don't support?

I was just going to say also, just that people don't necessarily also know kind of how lax some of the rules are, like the Animal Welfare Act, you know, the requirements for how you keep your dogs and, you know, you're allowed to breed them over and over again without limit. Um, you know, as long as the cage is big enough, they can pretty much spend their entire lives in there. Um, so I don't think that, people necessarily realize that and when you say puppy mill, they might think illegal, but it's not necessarily illegal. Some in some cases, they might be right. But these are for the most part licensed facilities that are operating this way.

Yeah, I mean, it's legal animal neglect and cruelty. It's the best way to say. It's you have all these animals. Yeah, I often I often compare it to hoarding cases because hoarders will maintain animals in the same ways, and sometimes not even as bad as some of these puppy mills do. However a hoarder is legally liable for the neglect that these animals are suffering for the lack of proper care and for the lack of You Proper space of a clean environment. But then these breeders are allowed to do the same thing that a hoarder does. And it is okay because it's a for profit business.

Yeah, one of the things that we really wanted to do was see what it looks like in person, right? Like that was one of our goals and so we did knock on the door of many different facilities. We got like a sneak peek into one like before you close the door really fast. And like, that was, um, I don't think you fully understand what a, what the noise sounds like in a facility that has, you know, over a hundred, uh, breeding dogs and in stacked cages. Like that, that noise and smell is so overwhelming. Um, the, the man came out and like these like large, like noise canceling headphones. Um, you know, and we did go to a, a dog auction in Missouri. Um, and I think that that was the way that we could really see like. the behavior differences in a dog, um, when they live, when they've been a breeding dog their entire lives, uh, they, they just fundamentally don't act like a dog that you had ever like seen. Um, like you go up to the cage and you could check out the animals in this, um, this auction. You could walk up and you can, you know, I, I, I'm guessing it's for the people who were going to be either bidding on them or, uh, the rescues. Uh, there are some rescues that go and like get dogs there, but also it's other breeders looking for new stock. Um, and the animals themselves, like it was, I mean, Alene and I had a real hard time, like seeing what the animals were behaving like, um, the way that they don't make eye contact, they hide at the back of their cage and just like, are like, absolutely frightened. And there were some that were spinning in circles. There was one that like, you know, was missing some toes and like, um, uh, like, you know, it was still expected to breed like, you know, and like, what was it standing properly? Um, so it was, that was really eye opening. And then we did go to a, uh, a larger facility. Um, that I think it was Bernie doodles that they did. Um, but, you know, and it was a large facility, but this family, like their dogs acted like dogs, like, it's just was like, such a stark difference when you're there and you're seeing like, the difference between these facilities and like on paper they might look the same because they both have a lot of dogs, but like there was a huge difference in the behavior of the dogs.

Yeah, it's really important for people. You know, I'm, I'm a big shelter proponent. So I think that people should go to shelters. Not that everybody has this, this idea that there's only big dogs in shelters. There's only pit bulls in shelters. And what the truth is that there is every type of dog, big dogs, little dogs. There's so many doodles. The doodles are being so overbred. So they're ending up in, up in shelters. And people say, well, I don't want a dog from a shelter because I don't know where it's come from. I want to get it from a breeder. Well, do you really know where this dog from a breeder has come from? Right? You need to, and you got to see that. First hand that you need to see the environment where they come from, you need to see the parents, you need to see how they're being taken care of, how you know how they act, how just overall the situation because when you meet somebody in a parking lot to pick up a dog, you have no idea where that dog has come from, right?

Yeah, and we definitely talked to a bunch of people who did buy dogs in parking lots and, you know, their dog, when they took it home, got sick. And, um, in many cases, they realized that they didn't really know much about the person who sold the dog to them. Um, it was maybe a fake name, a burner phone number. So when they tried to reach out again, the person essentially just disappeared.

And I will say that the people that we talked to, Many of them thought they were doing the right thing. Like, yeah, they did fall for the picture and right, like the picture sells itself. The puppy will sell itself every time, but they believed the words that the person had told them. They believed it really was spoiled their, uh, you know, first and only litter, like all of these kinds of keywords that are truly meant to like, put somebody at ease and make them think they're making a smart choice. And, you know, it's really not until that dog gets sick and they, you know, the breeder turns out to be like a ghost breeder and like there's no recourse because you can't find them.

Reading through your report, and I really encourage our listeners to, you know, check out the LA Times and read the entire report, because there's so much good information. One of the people that you were investigating was this Monique Matthews, and it sounds like she was one of these people that was selling at parking lots as well. Alright, can you tell us a little bit about her operation and how she ended up getting in trouble?

Yeah, so she, um, was, yes, meeting people in public places, parking lots, parks, um, and selling dogs. She used aliases. She never really gave her real name, at least in recent years. Um, and, you know, we talked to people who bought dogs from her whose dogs ended up sick. And in one case, the dog actually died after 11 days. And that was very, very heartbreaking. Um, she, we found, was using aliases on these certificates of veterinary inspection. Um, and we were able to link. Almost 1000 dogs to her operations over the years since 2019, um, using these various aliases, that are on the records, um, and a lot of times she was getting them from Iowa, Missouri, um, Kansas in a couple instances. And it was actually a pet transporter who delivered a Boston Terrier to her in 2021, uh, was going inside to, to drop off the dog and saw the conditions of, of the rest of the animals in there. There were dogs and cats in small cages. It was very, very hot in the garage sweltering and there was no water for the dogs and he was just so overcome with emotion and anger seeing this, uh, this garage. And he struggled with actually leaving the facility, leaving these dogs unattended in there. And he vowed to himself that when he got back to Missouri, he was going to call animal control and report the neglect. And when he did, they moved very quickly later that day, they got a search warrant and seized all of the dogs in the garage. And she was charged with animal cruelty. Um, in a case that, you know, went over the course of a couple of years and recently resolved. Um, and actually during that case, the judge decided that she should not possess any animals. She shouldn't like over the course of her case, she, she's not allowed. He ordered her not to possess any animals, even her personal pets at that point. Um, but her name continued or those aliases that we identified continued to show up on the health certificates. So she was still getting dogs during that time. And in one case, we actually, um, one of her client's relatives set up, a buy with her and we ended up showing up instead and tried to interview her there. And this was when she was under court order not to possess animals. She was still trying to sell dogs. And then, recently this past summer, she was, um, she actually pleaded guilty to those animal cruelty charges for the conditions in the garage and was sentenced to 90 days, which she could do in a like a work release program in some community service. And the case is now, you know, now over.

Was there any mention as far as her USDA license? Like is she, did she lose her license? Is she able to get licensed again ever?

Yeah, she does not have a license. She was selling dogs to people in person and not, I don't believe she was breeding them. Um, although she was telling people that she was the breeder of the dogs.

So she was, okay, so hold on. So she was getting dogs from, she was getting dogs brought in to her from these, uh, brokers. And then she was selling them without a license. Is that right?

Yeah. And because she's selling them in person, I think that that's one of the areas that doesn't require a license.

You know, from a, from a perspective, a legal perspective, like clearly we care about the animals, we care about the condition of the animals, the health of the animals, the fact that they're neglected and suffering, you know, some of these dogs are dying. But then on the other side too, we got to look at I say like consumer protection, right? Because what are, what recourses are there for these people who are spending probably hundreds and thousands of dollars buying these purebred dogs in a parking lot and, you know, getting, getting sick animals? Like, you know, these laws, I'm sure, again, are meant to protect animals, but they need to be upheld just so they can protect consumers as well.

Yeah, I mean, it's hard to have any kind of recourse if, if the person's given you a fake name, and so one of the things, you know, beyond, you know, being able to see the parents of those dogs and being adamant that you need to see at least the, the, I mean, I'll take your advice on this too, but like, I'm assuming the mother dog like you need to see that a dog has recently given like, you know, there's a way to tell like that this is obviously the mom like you can tell that she's recently nursed the puppies And it can't just be you know a dog that doesn't, you know, that's there. Like, I think that that's like some of the things that I've heard from people is like, well, you know, I saw the parents and, you know, it makes you question, like, did, did you like, I mean, it might not have been, but beyond seeing, like, you know, the parent dogs and not relying on a picture, um, being able to see them and like conditions, you know, I think like, even just asking for like, let me see your ID. Like, let me, let me actually know that the person that you are is the person that, like, I'm buying a dog from.

Uh, during the course of your investigation, did you interview any legitimate breeders and get their, you know, see what they think about this whole thing?

Yeah, we, um, in, uh, I think it was Missouri. We met with one that is a larger scale one and sat down with them and, you know, talk to them about like what their thoughts are. And, um, you know, we did definitely try to reach out to, to regular like breeders in California too, but, um, we did focus mostly on these, um, They're really not breeders, right? Like, there are people who are importing dogs or these middlemen, um, and sort of detailing, like, this pipeline to people, like, who think that they're buying from a breeder. Um, you know, the Boston Terrier that Alene mentioned that was delivered to that garage of Monique Matthews, you know, we could see on its paperwork that it, you know, was an Indiana breeder to an Indiana broker to a Missouri travel, um, uh, transportation company, then to Norco in California. That pipeline, like, I had no idea that this wasn't a straight line from like a breeder to, uh, you know, to these, uh, places in California. Like it's, it's quite the, the journey in those first days and weeks of a puppy's life.

Yeah. One of the things that I have seen, especially like in, in places that do allow the retail sale of puppies is that they will see the puppies that come out of the van. And then they'll look at a puppy and say, Oh, this puppy has a health condition or has a congenital problem. You know, like the knees are, are, are not in place or it has whatever issue. And they'll say, I don't want this puppy. And then they'll just put it back in the van and then go to the next place and the next place and the next place until they find the, the one. seller that doesn't mind that the puppy has these problems. Because unfortunately, by the time somebody purchases a dog, and then the dog starts having problems, the dog is sick, or, you know, months down the line starts showing symptoms of some congenital problem, the person is attached to them, right? So there, it's not like they're going to be able to just give it back.

Yeah, no, we actually talked to people who were advised by vets, like, you should go back and return this puppy, and the people Uh, we're just like, no, this is part of my family now. And, you know, if I return her that, like, what is that? I don't want to return this dog to those conditions where they came from. Um, you know, at this point I want to nurse them back to health and give them a good life because of. it's just, it would just be too hard to, to return them to those conditions.

It's really unrealistic to, I mean, anybody who's been attached to a pet, the idea of handing back a puppy and saying, nevermind, like this one's too hard. Like I just, It breaks your heart. Like, I mean, even with some of the lemon laws, like that do exist, like, you know, one of the recourses in some of those are to return the puppy for a new one. And that just, I don't think that that jives with how people relate and love pets.

There are some people in rescue that call them greeders instead of breeders because it is driven by greed, you know, and, and people like, like this woman that even though she had. Like, by law, she was not allowed to be doing anything with these animals, but she was still doing it. It's because, you know, the money's there. It's just greed driving them to do these things.

The repercussions aren't aren't necessarily that strong either.

One of the things that we were really excited about with this investigation was being able to take these records and pull the microchips off the records and give consumers a chance to see, like, whether or not their dog was purchased, uh, from out of state. And so that has the opportunity in some of these cases where people are pretending to be breeders, you know, if, if an individual has a contract saying I am buying from this person, this is the breeder and they're able to find the microchip in our system, I mean, that, that definitely would point to like, you know, uh, consumer fraud there, like there, there are true issues with that. And I think that the reason that this industry has been able to, you know, yeah. allow these like fake breeders to exist is that like finding that information is very difficult. But a microchip is, you know, a unique identifier and these records hopefully will help people. Um, you know, it also includes some from pet stores. And so if somebody got a dog, um, you know, rescued a dog, uh, went to a shelter and fell in love, um, and you could potentially find, you know, what was your dog's story? What's your dog's real birthday? Like, you know, there are some really interesting, you know, details on these records that I think consumers would really benefit from.

So if any of our listeners are interested in checking if their animal came from one of these places, like how can they, how can they look into this database?

Uh, so it's the Pets for Profit is the name of our series and in there is our database, um, that you could put your information in. Um, we also have a, a tool underneath this database after putting, uh, we're only including the 15 digit, um, microchip numbers, uh, that's just the most popular and easiest to, to add into there. You know, there are several thousand microchips in there and we're hoping to, to help consumers figure out if, like, if they unknowingly bought from a puppy mill.

So what would you say, you know, in, in summary, what's the biggest take home message that you wanna give your, your readers and our listeners as far as this investigation?

I, I hope that we're able to educate readers about what questions to ask and what to look for, red flags to look for when they are trying to get a new, add a pet to their family.

Yeah, I think that, you know, there are, the shelters are overflowing in California and there's lots of great options there for, for somebody who wants to adopt a pet. And, you know, for those who are, you know, wanting to, you know, purchase a pet from a breeder that, that you have to be vigilant, you have to, you know, go into it thinking that maybe like everything that this person might be telling you might not be true and you have to be skeptical. Um, and I think it was in one of your previous podcasts where you had, um, where someone had mentioned, um, you know, that you might not know as much as you think you do about this dog. Like you might actually have the exact same amount of information as you would for a dog you get at a shelter. Um, and so I think being like understanding that you might, you know, you, there's a lot of skepticism that has to happen in this market right now.

And for anybody that wants to get more information as well, check out Bailing out Benji, it's just bailing out benji. com. Mindy and her team do a fantastic job as far as trying to find these areas. They have lists of breeders and brokers that there have been, there have been problems with, uh, you know, if somebody's telling you, oh, I only have a small group of dogs, you can go and then you can see if that's true or not. Like some of these people that say that they're small breeding facilities, they'll have over 300 animals. And if you can think about it, You know, even like shelters with 50 animals and a lot of people, they have a hard time keeping them clean and taking care of them. We're talking about hundreds and hundreds of these animals that these people are keeping supposedly in good condition. So yeah, be, get informed, learn about, you know, where you're getting your animal and we have to get away from the mentality that just because it's from a breeder, we know that where it came from and that it has a good lineage because that's just unfortunately not the case. Well, thank you for being here. Thank you for writing the story because we need to we need to educate consumers and we need to educate people. The consumers hold all the power to shutting these puppy mills down and to shutting these these retailers and individuals that are selling dogs. So I'm hoping to to see where this goes, and maybe in the not so distant future, you will be writing another investigative report about how this has made a difference.

Thank you so much. Thank you.

Thank you for being here. And for our listeners thank you for listening and thank you for caring.