Some of that responsibility is on you, that that other person or those people are not responsible for fulfilling all your needs.

Right.

Even something as simple as an orgasm. Right. I'm a great advocate for my own orgasms. Even if I'm in a partner moment. If I didn't get off, I'm going to make sure I got off.

Absolutely.

Welcome to the Taboo to Truth podcast. Unapologetic conversations about sexuality in midlife. I'm your hostess, Karen Bigman, certified life and menopause coach and sex educator.

Welcome.

Whether it's a dwindling libido, a dry vagina, a challenging erection, or the emotional ups and downs of midlife, we're here to talk about it all. I'm going to bring the often quiet into the light to create a safe space where no question is too awkward or taboo. Together, we're creating a community of support and education where you can learn, share and laugh about the intricate beauty of sex in midlife. So grab your favorite drink and put me on speaker. It's time we broke the silence.

Welcome. Today I have Kamna Bhajwani, who is a certified. I'm going to read this because it's so impressive. Certified sexologist, media personality, and thought leader Kamina will take you on a journey through the past, present, and future of sex. As the host of Kamna Live, she breaks taboos daily, addressing such topics as sexless marriages and infidelity. Today, she is amongst the foremost leaders studying sex and technology, including AI and the future of intimacy. Kamna has three degrees in psychology, including a master's in spiritual psychology from Columbia, where she studied sexual shame. Formally, her life's philosophy is simple. Nothing in the human experience is profane. So let's talk about it. Love it. So aligned. So aligned.

Don't you love it when you write your own biology?

Wow.

Who's that impressive person? Like, oh, it's me.

Right? Right. When you hear someone else saying it, it always sounds a little bit different, but wow. Well, Kam and I met here at the Sexual Health alliance conference and she just did a wonderful talk on sexual shame. So I thought it would be the perfect opportunity for us to talk about it, particularly as my audience is very much in that midlife where there's a lot of things related to shame. So let's talk first a little bit about what shame is and then sexual shame in particular.

Sure. So when we talk about. So I'll take it back one step and talk about sexuality. Just to clarify that when we talk about sexuality, we're not talking about sex. Sex is one piece of it. It's one piece of the pie. Right. It's not the whole thing. Sexuality is how you show up in the world. How you feel about yourself, who you love, how you love, what turns you on. Desire, consent, sexual justice, all of those things. Sexual shame then is when you're made to feel bad or when you feel bad about any of those aspects. So you can see that it runs quite a wide gamut. And I started studying sexual shame. Not intentionally. I was studying sexuality. But very quickly, I think two or three months into my study, I was like, oh my God, we have to delve into this shame piece because it hits us all across the world, across age spans.

What would be some of the signs of sexual shame?

So we're just beginning to study sexual shame in men, which is a shame. Should have been doing it right from the beginning. But essentially it is people feeling bad about their bodies, right? So body image issues, low self esteem, low confidence. In women, it is linked to anxiety and depression. In men, it leads to more isolation. Men just tend to shut down in both genders. Where. And I'll say both genders. And I'm the first to admit that I don't have a large non binary sample and I intend to change that as I do more research. But generally across the genders, we're seeing that it's why people don't report sexual violence. It's why people are hesitant to seek help. So it really hits across a number of aspects. I'm very curious to see how all those things impact how you do professionally. There are some studies that show that people that have better sex lives do well professionally, they do better at work. And you can sort of see that, right, things are going well at home, you're feeling good about yourself. And conversely, when those things are absent, how does that impact? Because I'm skeptical enough to think that if we can prove that there's an ROI to helping eliminate sexual shape, then suddenly we'll be doing better.

Yeah, Actually there is research that shows that if you have sex before work, you're more productive. Everybody take that note, right? When we're talking about midlife in particular. So, you know, kids don't learn about sex and now we're moving into midlife. And in particular, my experience as a midlife woman who's divorced, there's a different kind of shame. There's embarrassment about not knowing how to get back into sex. There's embarrassment about the physical changes of the body. There's just embarrassment about, like, going on a date. Like, how do I show up? What do I do?

You know, it's funny. I'm giggling because I'm in the same mood, right? I'm in my 40s and I'm going through a divorce. And dating apps didn't exist the last time I was single. And it certainly is the learning curve. And you're absolutely right. There is a lot of shame and stigma for people in their middle age because the idea that it's a very old patriarchal notion, right? Sex is for reproduction. So once you start shutting down, those functions start shutting down. What the hell do you need sex for? Quite the opposite. People I interview in their 50s and their 60s, when they've gotten their hormones and all those things sort of in check, you know, so they're through the tunnel, if you will. They are ready for more intimacy. They're ready to be seen. They say things like, I feel good in my body, I look good, and I want to go out and reconnect. The problem is often they're in relationships where that whole dynamic has already changed, and they don't know how to claw back from that. That's hard because women will come to me and say, shit, you know, I've been in a sexless marriage for 10 years. I've gone through this transformation. I've gone through this, you know, this biological, spiritual, emotional transformation. And I'm better on the other side of it. I don't know how to bring my partner along. And that strikes at the. At the shame piece in healthcare professionals. I don't know about you, but I don't know a lot of healthcare professionals that are willing to help women or that are capable of helping women focus on their sexual wellness. We're very quick to talk about hot flashes and weight gain and, you know, oh, my God, my mood swings and staying up at night. But my girlfriends who are in their 50s, will tell me, I'm embarrassed to ask my doctor about lube or any of these basic things.

That was my experience. I mean, when I, you know, I talk about it, when I got divorced, all of a sudden I had the sexual awakening, and I was in a relationship, and I started having issues with orgasm. And I remember, like, going to my doctor, and I'm sort of embarrassed to say this. And her first. Her first line of defense was, you're getting divorced. There must be a lot of emotional upheaval. And indeed, that was part of it. But I'm like, but no, no, no. Like, we're having sex in cars, and I'm like, I can't have an org. Orgasm. Like, what's going on here? And it turned out I ended up going to. She finally referred me to a sexual medicine practice. But they helped me and it really led me to where I am today. They really helped me be able to talk about it. Because you walk in there and not only are they asking you all these different questions, but they literally gave me a vibrator and said, go in the other room and try that. And I think when you get divorced or when you go through menopause, you should be given hormones and a vibrator.

Yes. And you've never had one before. Exactly. Maybe inedible. I don't know, something. Just chill out and enjoy it. Right? That sort of thing. No, I think it's a problem. I think that's the shame piece on both ends. Women who feel that they are not entitled to it, that there's somehow, oh, my God, I'm so past the shelf life. I shouldn't be asking these questions. And then medical practitioners and healthcare practitioners that are just not equipped because, again, they haven't dealt with their own biases around this. That's a real issue.

I mean, menopause, that. That whole conversation is just starting now. Forget about sex. I actually had an experience and I'll make it more about you.

But.

But just because I was at a wedding and I sat across. I just did. Talked about this in my episode on testosterone. And I asked, he was an endocrinologist. And I said, oh, you know, like, this is the work I do. What do you think of testosterone? Because it's actually unfortunately controversial for women. And he went first. The first thing he said was. And then I said, okay. He said, and just for libido. And I'm like. And like, is there anything wrong with it?

Just.

And he kept repeating these two things a little bit. Just for libido. I'm like, yeah, that should be like, number one.

Don't you want us to have libido? Why are we hushing around it?

Exactly. It's true.

And by the way, on the flip side, it's. We're not doing men any favors in this education department either, right? Because as we've talked about earlier, andropause is real manopause, right? It's a drop in testosterone after a certain age. Decrease in libido, decrease in muscle mass, receding hairlines, all the things that make a man masculine start depleting. And we don't tell them. We don't tell them that this is happening. So they think it's Them and then they go to these like secret tea parties where men are inject, injecting themselves with testosterone. I get it. But it shouldn't be a secret.

Wow, Interesting. I did not know that.

Yeah, it's a tea party.

A tea party. It's oit.

Okay. Exactly.

Took me a minute, but again, it's.

Under the covers and it's all this shame based stuff. When actually we would all come up and say sexual wellness is very much linked with overall wellness and it doesn't have a shelf life. It's not something I've heard people talk about. These new, all these longevity gurus and biohackers. You want to live to be 120? You want to be sexless for all of that? No, thank you.

And you'll live longer if you have more sex and you'll have better relationships.

Absolutely, absolutely.

So how do we talk to the change in culture around, you know, for a long time? Long time. For a period of time now we've been talking about the patriarchy and you know, women are feeling more in their power. And I recently spoke with a young woman who's in her 40s and she's been single and hasn't been able to find a partner. She said, we were sold a bill of goods because we went and we became, you know, powerful and you know, we're great in the boardroom and now men don't know what to do with us. And there's, there's that sort of reverse roles where now we're sort of shaming men into behaving better towards us.

Yeah. You know, I think, I think it's, it's true. And at the same time I'm, I love men. I feel deeply empathetic for the boxes that we put men in. Right. So male. And I'll come around to answering your question. But male sexuality, as far as I'm concerned, has been as restricted as female sexuality. Different ways. Right. For men it's all about performance, performance, it's all about numbers, how big, how long, how many, et cetera. Men will come and say, I have to be the initiator. Right. I, the sexual initiator at the man and I'm constantly being rejected. What do we think they're like Mr. Potato Head? That they don't have feelings, that that's not going to be internalized in the same way. So I think that while we empower women and we bring women along, we've got to reach over to the men and bring them along with. And it's a little bit Harder. Because as much as we've screwed women in so many ways, the one thing we've given them is permission to ask for help. Right? It's perfectly acceptable for women to sit together and huddle and be in a circle and kumbaya and talk about their problems to some degree. But we don't do that to men. We don't give them that permission. They're only allowed to be vulnerable with their partner. And frankly, if your penis is not doing what you think it should be doing, your partner might be the last person you want to be vulnerable with. So it's really, really complicated. And I think we have to do a better job of bringing along men and people who present as men.

You mentioned the dating apps and dating app culture, and how has that impacted all of this? And how can we shift? I mean, I have been perpetually on and off of it for 10 years, and I'm learning to sort of gauge and understand and read into the profiles. I'm also doing this work and meeting people and the field. But how can. What. What is going on with that and how do we, you know, approach it in a way that is healthy?

I think that we have to understand that our technologies represent our collective psyches and mindset on any particular topic. Right. Because ultimately we are fueling it with the data. We are even in an AI world, right. Ultimately, it is generative in that it is building on itself, but we are feeding in those inputs that that's building on. So when we talk about the bad behavior on social media, I think that we have to own that we've taken these spaces where we can maybe have a real profile or maybe not have a real profile or behave in ways that we would not behave in real life. I think we have to hold people accountable to that. And, you know, you and I were both in a session yesterday, we talked about Social media is just. Dating apps are a tool. So use them wisely. Use them when you know that they're going to fuel positive emotion and not exacerbate negative feelings. And I personally, I think, don't take everything personally when people are assholes on dating apps, which they are. I've been ghosted. I've had some really stupid things being said to me. I hold myself to a higher standard, let's put it that way. And if that person on the other end does not have that, then I dodged a bullet, as it were. So I think it's a little bit about putting it in perspective. I'm a huge fan of in person meeting, but I'm an extrovert. I understand that that's an advantage that I have because I like 3D energy, I like meeting people. But I think it's nice to have a balance. So not relying exclusively on apps and finding the, maybe the courage to put yourself in places where you might find like minded people, even if it's just activity based and not necessarily with an outcome of finding someone romantic.

Yeah, I think that's part of the whole and I think that's part of the issue with apps and in real life it's this goal oriented. I'm going to find my soulmate, the one, my partner in crime, whatever the, you know, the cliche is.

And can we just go back to dating apps aside? Like that's just too much to put on one person.

Exactly.

And that's why we find ourselves in these unfulfilling relationships because they were. Marriage was never meant to be like that. Long term relationships, one person. First of all, again, coming back to the fact that we're living too long, we die at 40. That was great. But you know, you can't, some of that responsibility is on you that that other person or those people are not responsible for fulfilling all your needs.

Right.

Even something as simple as an orgasm. Right. I'm a great advocate for my own orgasms. Even if I'm in a partnered moment, if I didn't get off, I'm going to make sure I got off.

Absolutely. I'm with you.

There you go.

And it's important to have that communication with your partner where that's okay. Yeah. And what's interesting is that I've been in a few relationships or intimate situations recently where the man has had issues and I think a couple of them were definitely shame based and it was like they're able to get hard but then they're not able to ejaculate. And I, fortunately vibrators are my friends and I know my body and that works and it becomes actually shame. I want them to. And so it's like, I guess I am shaming them without even realizing it.

It's that whole thing about not everything is about you. You don't have to take everything so personally. I think it's actually a plus that you're comfortable enough with somebody to be like, I got this, watch me, play with me, stay here, you know, be close, you know, that sort of thing. And it takes, it's uncomfortable, but I think it takes a little bit of work on both parts. Especially as after a certain age range, everybody's bodies are Changing, right. In fact, I told a lover recently, I was like, enjoy. You're getting me in my perimenopausal. I don't fucking know what's going on, but, you know, we'll figure it out.

Well, Lisa Moscone's brain research, one of the things that, you know, the menopause brain, you know, it does change. She's looked at the images, but basically what she also found, and I've heard this, and there's another study, Cosmo and McKinsey Institute, that basically when we were over 60, we get the I don't give a fuck or I like to give bucks, but the real kind attitude. So it gets better. It changes, but it gets better.

Yeah, I mean, I hope so. I think. I think there is a. There's a self responsibility component here. And I tell people that all the time, if you're old enough to drive and you're old enough to vote, you are old enough to take your sexuality in your own hands. And if you're a grandmother, that's okay. Let me. Let me tell you this. I grew up in India, as I mentioned, and the number of women in their 60s and 70s, my friends, parents, grandparents, et cetera, the women that message me privately on Facebook and tell me how much they love my work, I'm like, listen, I'm so happy that you're able to do that, but I wish you would do it in a more public way than dming me. Right. So I think it takes courage and some intentionality to get to that. Zero fucks or many fucks given at a certain stage. I don't think everybody gets there.

Yeah, I guess for you and I, it's easy to do, but who knows.

Honestly who I mean, I think this journey is? I mean, I certainly experience a lot of shame. Sorry, a lot of. I don't experience shame, but I get a lot of pushback. But what I do as an Indian woman who talks very openly about sex at dinner parties, you know, there's always a joke about a vibrator. Some stupid man will come and ask me some stupid question. I mean, they're not stupid men. But the only way they can get comfortable with talking about sex is by making a joke. Right. Or making some misogynistic joke about a big dick. And then I'll flood them with data and then they go away because that's not the conversation that they wanted to have. But we use humor a lot as a substitute for real conversations.

Right? Right. So how does one educate more, at least at the later stage in life. And is there hope for us?

I think there is hope. I think conversations like this are hope. I think, as I shared earlier, I think we have to understand that sexuality is deeply personalized and deeply individualized, and it really is your own responsibility and your own prerogative. So the agency piece, like we were talking about earlier, if you're in your 50s, 60s, whatever, and you're feeling like your body's changing and there are tools out there for you and your healthcare provider is not willing to help you, you gotta switch. You gotta ask around, you gotta ask your friends, what are you doing? When my friends now sit around, it's like, literally, like, all the resources. Somebody's recommending cbd, somebody's using an estrogen cream, somebody's. And I like the community coming together, but it certainly shouldn't be the only resource that we have.

Right. And I love that younger women are having these conversations because my generation, on some level, at least on the menopause conversation, really lost out. But we don't. We don't have to. We're not dead yet, so we really need to move forward.

It's ridiculous that we're just now, oh, yeah, hrt. All my friends are calling me, like, oh, my God, this was a game changer. And I remember. Remember my mother being like, I'll never take hrt. I remember her saying that. And you know, what transpired for her in those 10, 15 years, how she silently went through this passage, only she knows.

Right?

I mean, my sister and I know she was. It was rough, but, you know, and I.

And I remember my mother took Premarin, but I still remember her walking with a little fan around the house, you know? You know, but it wasn't talked about. Wasn't anything we spoke about. And there's still a lot of shame around the word menopause. My. I gave this example yesterday. I was on YouTube live. My sister forbid me. She said, I'll come to your house for, I believe it was last year's Thanksgiving dinner. She said, I'll come, but you cannot talk about menopause. And I'm like, I won't talk about sex, if that bothers you. But really, menopause, I mean, I'm okay.

Not being beaten over the head by it. By anything, really. But people are suffering. And I really think that there's. We've come so far as a species, really. We can't. We can't just help people along in the next 30, 40 years or the last phases of their lives.

Right? Right. And I Guess it goes with the like, oh, I need help. That, that, like, back to your shame, like, I have to ask for help. Well, yes, your body needs help.

You know, I would say I'm a big fan of ancient cultures and ancient philosophies and, you know, I try and eat and work through like an ayurvedic system, et cetera. I think that it's wonderful. Unfortunately, you know, people in those days didn't live. Didn't live that long.

That's right.

So we can't look back and really be like, how was it in your 80s and 90s? Because, you know, a lot of them, the life expectancy was a lot lower back then.

Right.

So we're stuck with this over research, technology driven, kind of trying to find, you know, profit driven enterprises. We're really trying to find authentic solutions here.

So anything else in particular around any of this that you would like to add before I ask my regular questions?

I just, I mean, I want to add that none of this is easy. I mean, we've battled obstacles in our own lives to come to a sexology conference and to put ourselves out there and to have these conversations. And that's not. That shouldn't be your listener's goals. Right. Everybody's gotta be on their own path and has got to end up where it's right for them. But at the end of the day, I think the goal is to lead a life that is authentic and full of vitality. And your sexuality is a critical part of that.

I love that.

It just is.

I love that. And before we end, I ask my final question, and you talked about what sexuality is, but in your personal definition, what is sex? I should have warned you this.

You should have warned me. It's.

No, wrong answer.

No, I know. I'm just thinking of the. I don't. The reason you think after all the work that I've done that I don't have a definition for sex. Because I think it does. It varies. And I'll give you an academic answer and then I'll come back to a personal one. So when you look at the research, people actually don't have a, have a, like a unified definition. Mostly people say it's penile, vaginal, you know, insertion. But a lot of people think oral sex. A lot of, you know, some people, some people will circumvent sex by having anal sex and be like, I'm a virgin.

Right, right.

That's problematic in my opinion. But overall, for me, if I said I've had sex with somebody, I think there is some sort of. I think. I think genitalia would be involved. I think that's kind of. I'm honestly, I've never really. I've never really thought about it. I think there is some sort of general dialogue, let's put it that way. Okay.

Okay. Wonderful. And different. So everybody has a different answer. And I love that. Where can people find you?

Sure. So I'm on Instagram, YouTube as KamnaLive. KamnaLive.com and LinkedIn is Kamna Bojwani. And I'll leave you with this. So you remember my name. K means desire.

Love that.

So there you go. What else was I going to be doing?

There you go. There you go. Thank you so much.

Thank you.

And I'll put all the links in the show notes.