Hello and welcome to Haverin About a healthcare technology podcast hosted by father and
daughter duo Stuart and Bethany.
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And today we have a very special guest with us to talk all about getting a job, which I
would sing a very famous song about getting a job, but I don't want us to get copyright
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infringement notices.
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So I won't, but just imagine it happening right now.
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So today with us, have Brian Whitehill, who is the founder and CEO of the AccuSource
group.
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If you are in healthcare technology and you've ever tried to look for a job, I hope that
you have run across Brian and his mighty, mighty team.
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They are fabulous at what they do and have such good insight into what is happening in our
industry.
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So Brian, thank you so much for joining us today.
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Well, thanks for having me, guys.
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And I was wondering if the song was going to be Take This Job and Shove It by Johnny
Payton, but we're not allowed to do that.
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I didn't just say that.
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I was going to do the offspring song that has the na na.
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Why don't?
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Yeah.
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more old school than you, but you know, back in the day that they used in the early
eighties, if you were upset with your boss, you could call in and say, you could tell your
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boss to take this job and shove it.
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And then they would play the Johnny paycheck song.
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So it was, it was, it was a fun thing.
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You gotta be old school to know that one.
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I kind of resemble that remark, Brian, so I do know that song.
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I know it well.
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Well, thank you guys for having me.
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I think you're doing a great job here and I'm excited to be on the show.
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I'm pleased that you asked me up.
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So, yeah.
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Brian, do you maybe want to start by giving our listeners who haven't interacted with you,
maybe a little background on who you are, what Accusource group is, kind of how you got
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into this kind of niche world of healthcare technology recruiting.
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I opened up Accusource Group in 2004.
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And here we are 20 plus years later, still doing the same thing.
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We build go to market teams.
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for health tech companies.
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So it's primarily software, some device, some professional services, some capital, but
it's all the vendors of healthcare.
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We partner with those companies and help them connect with the movers and shakers in the
space and the go-to-market areas.
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and it's interesting because I just as you kind of recount uh I think the first time I
interacted with you was probably pretty early in AcuSource's history.
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Because I can, my memory is that the first conversation I had was whilst I still worked
out of the Malvern office in Pennsylvania of Eclipsys And that would place that probably
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in your first couple of years.
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Yeah.
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Well, you were a very popular guy with our firm at one time.
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You were very popular and seriously, because you had clout, you had a good reputation, you
were leading teams.
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You were very nice.
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Always took the call.
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You were very well networked, very popular guys.
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So when Bethany came along, which was just by chance, and I finally put two and two
together, it's like, you're Stuart's daughter.
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I mean, you go, this is a legacy happening right in front of my face.
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So yeah, I mean, I'm kind of in between your generation and it's been a real joy to get to
know you both over time.
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Yeah.
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Absolutely.
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you know, having been in the health tech space specifically for 20, 25 years now, you must
have seen a lot of companies and helped a lot of companies kind of through that growth.
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And probably a few of them have probably busted along the way as well.
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Yeah, no, has been, it's been a journey.
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mean, look, companies don't hire us because recruiting is easy.
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It's hard.
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It's difficult.
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And everybody wants the best talent.
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Everybody wants the sharpest and the brightest individuals and the most productive and
competitive.
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And the challenge is, that the best and the brightest, they're not usually looking.
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They're certainly not the people who are answering your ads.
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So they have to be found.
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So we do a poach approach, not a post approach, which basically means we go directly for
the people that they're looking for.
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Everybody wants number one, everybody wants the best, and the best doesn't usually want
you, so you need an in-between guy like us to come in and connect the dots.
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So we've made a living on that.
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Most of the companies we work with are software.
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most of the time they're looking for people who can sell in the C-suite and effectively
sell enterprise solutions in the C-suite, which is there's a lot of stakeholders in the
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buying process.
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It could be as little as six months.
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It could be as long as 18 months, but it's very complex.
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There's a lot of moving parts and it takes smart people.
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sophisticated people who have an understanding of what's going on in the healthcare space,
which nobody really can explain it top to bottom.
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I mean, I've yet to find somebody that really can fully explain healthcare top to bottom,
but you have to have a pretty good leg up just to be competitive.
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And if you want a quick primer on that, you should watch the Andrew Zhang episode on the
abominable creature last week.
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We did literally blow out to the US economy level and then drilled back into the various
components of not only the provider space, but the payer space as well.
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So that's a great primer for people who are maybe locked in and focused in their little
niche, but need to have an understanding of what that bigger picture looks like.
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Now I saw some of the show notes on that too.
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It was like, the CFO's budget is not really there.
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And trust me, it's not.
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The payer sales cycle is long.
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And trust me that it is.
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Everybody wants to get involved in the payer side.
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We do a lot of payer searches.
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if I had a nickel for every time somebody said, we need somebody that has the C-suite
executives network and Rolodex,
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We need somebody that has successfully penetrated the big national payers and we need them
now and today.
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Everybody does.
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Everybody does.
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So it's one of the most difficult types of searches.
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And I would say that if you do sell to payers and you have effectively penetrated that
market, you probably already know your value and you can call your own shot.
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It's a good spot to be.
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Yeah.
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So I like that you said you take a poach them, not a post them approach, because I think,
and you know, the job market has ebbed and flowed, I'm sure over the 25 years that you've
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been in this particular industry.
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But I think especially in the last year or two, it's been really difficult.
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There's been some very big layoffs where people who were very tenured in companies have,
you know, been showing the door and
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told to leave, which is difficult.
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I think if you're in sales especially, but I think any job, you put a lot of self value
and self worth on this is my job, this is my career, my profession.
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So I see things on LinkedIn all the time of, I've applied to hundreds of posts and
hundreds of job ads and never heard anything back.
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And so I'd love to understand
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You know, if somebody is out of work right now, if they are looking to find a new job, I
don't know if they just apply to every LinkedIn job that's posted approach really works,
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but also, you know, what should a salesperson do to make sure that, you know, either that
they even get an interview and then when they get that interview, what should they be
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doing to prepare?
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I get this question a lot, Bethany, and it's a, yeah, it's a big one.
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My heart goes out to the people who are working to apply and to get in and to get in
overlooked.
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And it is frustrating because you feel like I'm doing what I'm supposed to.
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You said to do this.
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I did that.
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You said to apply.
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I did that.
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You said to push this button.
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I did that.
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But I think you have to take a step back and think about the transformation of the whole
application process over the years.
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Now, going back to my first job, I literally in 19.
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sorry, my second job, 1996, I'm really dating myself.
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I had to not only apply to the job, but I had to write out a description of myself and why
I fit the quality and caliber of person that they were looking for.
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I mean, I'm 23 years old at the time.
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it's, long story short, they made me work for it.
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Over time, these tools,
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have come along.
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You know, I remember when it was monster.com and all the recruiters in the world thought,
God, we're going to be out of business because now they've got these online job post
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things is going to connect the dots and we're in trouble.
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We're at risk.
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And then, of course, LinkedIn came along and we thought it again.
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my God, we're going to be out of business.
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They're going to be able to connect the dots there.
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All of these technology tools have done.
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They've made it easier to apply, but harder.
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to be seen.
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And I'm a very low friction kind of a guy.
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I don't like, I like the easy path for a lot of things, right?
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If I'm, I want to be as efficient as possible in whatever I do in life.
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But when it comes to applying for a job, I think that we need more hurdles.
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I think we need more hurdles because now we've got the easy button on LinkedIn.
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And the problem is, is for every job, I even say some of the bad jobs, bad jobs have 500,
600, 700 applicants.
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Suppose you're the absolutely qualified for that job.
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It doesn't matter how good you are, how qualified you are, how perfect you are, if you're
one of 700, do you really think the black and white words on your piece of paper is going
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to stand out so much?
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Mm-hmm.
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these people are going to say, this is the guy.
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This is the one.
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So we've opened up the channel.
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We've opened up the Komoda too far.
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And now have too many people in and it's become, we've become more individual as
applicants.
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That's the problem.
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And I think that there's some challenges there with the technologies that are being used
on the corporate side of things as well.
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That because of that huge increase in volume of candidates who are, because as you say,
it's so easy.
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You fill in some forms.
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In fact, even when you go to some of the sites, because it's ubiquitously down to about
three major corporate platforms.
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that are being used on an HR basis.
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You know, you've got the workday stuff, you've got the Oracle stuff, and then there's
Tally-O is out there floating around.
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You look at those as major platforms.
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Now what's happening is, never mind the hiring manager seeing you and going, I like the
look of that.
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You don't necessarily even get a human being.
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The ATS systems that are taking your input are basically scoring and ranking you and
judging you.
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before a human being ever sees you.
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And having talked to some of those kind of corporate talent search people, they say that
they're so overwhelmed juggling multiple requests from multiple managers in multiple
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divisions that there's no way that they can not use ATS to do that.
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So it is all too easy, particularly for those of us at my end of the generation.
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to get screened out.
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One, because our resumes tend to be big and bulky, and we've got a lot of stuff in them.
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And so therefore, streamlining that down to the one-pager that most of these systems
really want and matching against the criteria that are being built into the algorithms is
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really hard.
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So I think that it is very, very difficult in that kind of job search scenario.
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to get noticed because of the multiple hurdles and not ones that you can easily overcome.
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Stuart, let me ask you a question.
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You've hired a lot of people, right?
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Have you ever, this is a loaded question, the answer is yes, of course I know it is, but
have you ever interviewed somebody because they look good on paper, but after your
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interview you thought, my God, this is an absolute wrong candidate.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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there are some in back in, if I go back 10 years, it was people would hire a resume
writer, a human being to go through and
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polish the rock.
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I was going to use another word, but polish the rock.
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And the challenge with that is you're right.
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It looks, they look amazing.
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They've done a very good job of, describing that.
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And then it's literally, you have to get them in front of you and to be able to go
through.
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I, unlike a lot of my colleagues, I was pretty diligent in that if I had 11 candidates, I
would at least try to have a conversation on the phone.
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with all 11 of them to try and get a sense of who they were, what they were, and did they
match what they were claiming.
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So yes, the short answer to your question is, yes, multiple times I found candidates
whereby I went either, no, you're not quite a fit because these pieces are missing or that
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area of experience is too shallow or not.
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quite appropriate on scale for what we're looking for.
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Or people who flat out lied in their resumes and very easy to catch them out once you
actually had an eyeball to eyeball or ear to ear, ear to voice type conversation.
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Well, and I think what the point that we're making here is that the race becomes who can
build the best resume.
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You're going to get an interview.
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You might be the bad.
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You might be the wrong candidate, but you got in.
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And there's a lot of really good people that might not have got the interview better
because they had the wrong resume.
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Look, if you want to find out what's really important or the way that we go about finding
out what's really important to hiring managers, we will ask them.
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We'll say, for example, you take a sales leader and say,
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How many sales executives are on your team?
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And they may say, let's just say they say 10.
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If you had to fire nine of them and keep one because they're your best, I want you to get
that person in your mind.
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Think of that person.
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Don't tell me the name.
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Just think of this person.
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And a pause.
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I want them to think about why they love this person so much or why they would be the most
difficult to depart with.
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And then I'll say, now describe to me what it is.
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Just describe this person to me.
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100 % of the time when I do this drill, they start describing behavioral assets.
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They're resourceful.
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They work hard.
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They're smart.
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They figure it out.
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They're a grinder.
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They don't need to be there.
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They're hands held.
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They are creative in deals.
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It goes on and on and on.
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Now, all of these things that they're describing that they value, how do you effectively
articulate that on?
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Yeah.
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So what you really value can't be put on a resume.
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Yet what we say we're looking for in a job description are these hard assets, things that,
you know, years of experience.
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I'm not saying that that's not important, but what we value and what we hire for are
different than what we advertise for.
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And I think that is a problem in the system too.
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Some of these people...
213
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sorry about that.
214
00:15:54,932 --> 00:16:05,060
side is so huge because there's been plenty of people where I've been a salesperson and,
you know, new year, new blood comes in and you get the name.
215
00:16:05,060 --> 00:16:08,402
And so everybody goes on LinkedIn's like, where did they used to work?
216
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And, know, sometimes you might see some red flags, like, well, they've been at five
different companies for one, for less than a year for the past five years.
217
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Interesting choice.
218
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they were at that company.
219
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Hmm.
220
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You know, you might make some comments.
221
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But then the biggest test is when they come in for that sales kickoff and you meet them
for the first time.
222
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If they're just a jerk, and I've had this happen in my career where you get the new sales
people come in and they're just not nice people and you're like, why did they hire them?
223
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Like, what did they say in their interview to make the hiring manager think that they were
a good choice?
224
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So that's interesting because that's always what flags in my brain.
225
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Sometimes it's not.
226
00:16:50,285 --> 00:16:52,997
the that you had less than one year stints at places.
227
00:16:52,997 --> 00:16:58,582
It's not the fact that you worked at some interesting companies or whatever.
228
00:16:58,582 --> 00:16:59,833
It's really...
229
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Are you getting in and getting your hands dirty and learning and eager to help and
creative and flexible or are you?
230
00:17:07,769 --> 00:17:14,853
Well, and Bethany, I think that we need to train leaders that are hiring that they're
getting.
231
00:17:14,853 --> 00:17:18,835
They think I need somebody from a competitive environment.
232
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So they think, well, if they come from a competitor, they know where the bodies are
buried.
233
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They know with all the names, they've got the Rolodex.
234
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They're going to give me huge advantages.
235
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And but what they value and what they say they want are two different things.
236
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And.
237
00:17:33,913 --> 00:17:36,916
they end up making a lot of mistakes trying to hire from the competitor.
238
00:17:36,916 --> 00:17:41,962
I don't mind bringing somebody from a competitor and inevitably that's a lot of what we
do.
239
00:17:42,003 --> 00:17:51,388
But I feel like we need to train these hiring managers on how do you drill down and
quantify what you really care about.
240
00:18:03,362 --> 00:18:18,132
let's talk about sales leaders for a second, because obviously they're broadly, as other
than HR, you know, chief HR officers or something like that, they're your real customer as
241
00:18:18,132 --> 00:18:20,835
you're looking to try and engage in the marketplace.
242
00:18:20,835 --> 00:18:31,752
Yes, candidates need to be handled in a certain way, but your revenue broadly comes from
those relationships with the sales leaders.
243
00:18:31,991 --> 00:18:42,454
Let's talk about the company's hiring sales leaders first before we talk about how they
then interact with you because I know that they come to you for everything up to and
244
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including CEOs of organizations.
245
00:18:45,535 --> 00:18:52,218
And you mentioned earlier on some of the challenges of hiring leaders who can be leaders.
246
00:18:52,298 --> 00:18:58,696
And one of the internal mistakes I often see is promoting the most successful sales rep to
be
247
00:18:58,696 --> 00:19:08,144
the leader, either because they're ambitious and that's what they want, and there's a fear
of losing that talent, or because they think that somehow or other putting that most
248
00:19:08,144 --> 00:19:17,510
successful rep will kind of like do a cascade clone of their behaviors, which has always
bemused me because that's not how human behavior works.
249
00:19:17,510 --> 00:19:18,201
But never mind.
250
00:19:18,201 --> 00:19:22,243
You know, I speak more as a behavioral scientist in that respect.
251
00:19:22,250 --> 00:19:28,187
But what's what do you see the mistake that companies make in hiring sales leaders?
252
00:19:28,439 --> 00:19:33,141
Well, I think it's the same mistake that companies make in hiring sales reps.
253
00:19:33,141 --> 00:19:43,799
The belief that because you came from a certain company that you have certain assets that
are invaluable to our cause.
254
00:19:43,799 --> 00:19:49,550
to me, it comes down to a behavioral quality again.
255
00:19:49,550 --> 00:19:51,543
And, you know,
256
00:19:51,795 --> 00:19:53,776
Do you guys remember the movie Moneyball?
257
00:19:53,776 --> 00:19:55,508
Did you ever watch Moneyball?
258
00:19:55,728 --> 00:19:56,991
Okay, great movie.
259
00:19:56,991 --> 00:19:58,713
Jonah Hill, Brad Pitt.
260
00:19:58,713 --> 00:20:07,303
It shined a light in professional baseball that where, baseball was spending a lot of
money on the big hitters, the big swingers, the home run hitters.
261
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And this was in the early age of analytics and analytics got involved in it.
262
00:20:13,335 --> 00:20:16,587
Determine that a there was a better performance indicator than home runs.
263
00:20:16,587 --> 00:20:26,054
It was on base percentage On base percentage is not something that anybody pays attention
to So instead of spending all this money on the big home run hitters We should be spending
264
00:20:26,054 --> 00:20:37,013
it more on these home these on base percentage that caused a lot of friction in the show
and in real life because it was a different way of thinking and I think that same type of
265
00:20:37,013 --> 00:20:40,064
scenario has occurred in in our business where
266
00:20:40,134 --> 00:20:50,684
The traditional way of thinking is if you've been with certain companies and have held
certain titles and been involved in certain roles, that you are automatically going to be
267
00:20:50,684 --> 00:20:54,378
a home run hitter for our team as well.
268
00:20:54,378 --> 00:20:56,340
But here's the thing, the chips have changed.
269
00:20:56,340 --> 00:21:02,909
Why is one person successful in one company and unsuccessful in the next company?
270
00:21:02,909 --> 00:21:10,243
Did all of sudden overnight this person become unproductive and did they lose their talent
and smarts?
271
00:21:10,243 --> 00:21:12,485
No, a lot of things have changed.
272
00:21:12,485 --> 00:21:17,708
The culture changed, the leadership changed, the mission has changed, the market
conditions have changed.
273
00:21:18,027 --> 00:21:28,314
So I think it's a mistake to think that you could just pluck somebody from the next door
neighbor and assume, they've been successful, therefore it's going to be an automatic.
274
00:21:28,314 --> 00:21:29,783
It's the intangible.
275
00:21:29,783 --> 00:21:30,604
characteristics.
276
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It's the it factor.
277
00:21:31,805 --> 00:21:36,709
It's the right stuff that that we really want from these leaders.
278
00:21:36,709 --> 00:21:39,611
And I think we're screening for the wrong thing.
279
00:21:39,692 --> 00:21:41,363
We're screening for the titles.
280
00:21:41,363 --> 00:21:45,738
We're screening for the headlines and we're not screening for the guts.
281
00:21:45,738 --> 00:21:48,000
And I think we need to be screening for the guts.
282
00:21:48,001 --> 00:21:48,621
I love that.
283
00:21:48,621 --> 00:21:52,213
And I think it's integral.
284
00:21:52,213 --> 00:22:03,758
think, as you were saying, looking at the other factors that were at play, because there
are certain years where certain companies are, for whatever reason, just hitting gold.
285
00:22:03,758 --> 00:22:07,187
It may be that there's been an influx in money from the government.
286
00:22:07,187 --> 00:22:17,151
And so that particular thing that they were selling was very easy to sell because there
was money for it, whereas something else that's maybe newer or different.
287
00:22:17,347 --> 00:22:18,508
there's not around.
288
00:22:18,508 --> 00:22:20,389
Company culture exactly the same.
289
00:22:20,389 --> 00:22:30,997
There's been two instances where I've left a job, one even prior to going to club where I
was awarded club and I left.
290
00:22:31,358 --> 00:22:35,421
And in interviews it came up where it was like, well, why did you leave?
291
00:22:35,421 --> 00:22:38,823
If you had two years of hitting your number and going to club, why did you leave?
292
00:22:38,823 --> 00:22:44,508
And it's like, well, because the culture changed, new leadership came in and I saw the red
flags.
293
00:22:44,508 --> 00:22:45,529
I was like, I'm out of here.
294
00:22:45,529 --> 00:22:46,469
don't want to.
295
00:22:46,470 --> 00:22:47,812
things are about to change here.
296
00:22:47,812 --> 00:22:52,188
And I was still just as productive and good a salesperson as I was before.
297
00:22:52,188 --> 00:22:57,705
Like my own skills and talents didn't change, but everything else around did.
298
00:22:57,908 --> 00:22:58,738
Yeah.
299
00:22:58,758 --> 00:23:01,089
No, it happens all the time, Bethany.
300
00:23:01,089 --> 00:23:02,321
It happens all the time.
301
00:23:02,321 --> 00:23:05,706
companies, I just, they're not seeing it.
302
00:23:05,706 --> 00:23:07,687
I'm afraid that they're not seeing it.
303
00:23:07,687 --> 00:23:11,069
And I think it's because it's difficult.
304
00:23:11,069 --> 00:23:20,272
The hill to climb is steeper and taller to look for the things that intrinsically make for
a proper match.
305
00:23:20,493 --> 00:23:24,018
Whether you're talking about a sales leader or an individual performer.
306
00:23:24,018 --> 00:23:27,623
or a marketing leader or a product person, it doesn't matter.
307
00:23:27,623 --> 00:23:31,587
It's not just the paperwork, it's what's on the inside.
308
00:23:31,587 --> 00:23:40,215
And I think companies need to do a more psychological review on the things that really
matter and find ways to quantify those skills.
309
00:23:40,757 --> 00:23:42,188
It's, yeah.
310
00:23:42,188 --> 00:23:47,080
ask you, Brian, and this kind of ties into what you've just been going through.
311
00:23:47,221 --> 00:24:02,291
One of the things I've observed is that sometimes there's a tendency, know, really if an
early stage company into a mid stage company is looking to hire a CRO, there's a tendency
312
00:24:02,291 --> 00:24:07,774
for them to go and hire someone from a large corporate.
313
00:24:07,775 --> 00:24:10,077
because they think we need to scale.
314
00:24:10,077 --> 00:24:12,379
So therefore we need to go and get that.
315
00:24:12,379 --> 00:24:22,906
But if that person they're hiring has worked 20 years in a tens of thousands of person
company, they've had infrastructure around them for all of that time.
316
00:24:22,946 --> 00:24:25,989
That is a tens of thousands person company.
317
00:24:25,989 --> 00:24:34,931
And so therefore when they're suddenly dumped into, you know, sub a hundred people
organization and asked to build a sales organization,
318
00:24:35,117 --> 00:24:38,319
they don't necessarily have the skills there.
319
00:24:38,319 --> 00:24:48,830
So there's a balance between, you know, the kind of personality of leader that is a
spreadsheet jockey and political master, you know, because that's what they've had to do
320
00:24:48,830 --> 00:24:57,918
in that scale organization versus a team builder versus a player coach versus true
executive presence.
321
00:24:57,918 --> 00:24:58,269
I.e.
322
00:24:58,269 --> 00:25:02,918
they might be very good tactically managing sales teams, but do they have executive
presence?
323
00:25:02,918 --> 00:25:07,202
to be able to match the executives in the target customer base.
324
00:25:07,342 --> 00:25:13,507
And I'm curious as to, I'm sure you understand all of that.
325
00:25:13,507 --> 00:25:24,494
And as you're coaching and trying to deal with the engagement of an organization that's
hired you, that might be VC backed, might have some other equity board members, et cetera,
326
00:25:24,494 --> 00:25:28,826
how successful are you at actually trying to really drive into
327
00:25:28,942 --> 00:25:35,353
what do they need right now and matching that versus what they think they need.
328
00:25:35,604 --> 00:25:38,140
Is the question about how I quantify that?
329
00:25:38,140 --> 00:25:39,530
Is the question about how?
330
00:25:39,530 --> 00:25:45,206
and do you just take the briefing and go, OK, I'll go and find you six of those to start
the test?
331
00:25:45,206 --> 00:25:45,989
Yeah.
332
00:25:45,989 --> 00:25:46,609
I feel you.
333
00:25:46,609 --> 00:25:46,860
Yeah.
334
00:25:46,860 --> 00:25:49,331
There's a lot of challenging questions that you have to ask.
335
00:25:49,331 --> 00:25:50,711
It's like what's.
336
00:25:50,712 --> 00:25:51,752
There's a.
337
00:25:52,233 --> 00:25:53,734
We're we're trained in the art.
338
00:25:53,734 --> 00:25:56,556
We're we're probing constantly probing.
339
00:25:56,556 --> 00:25:57,936
Why do you need that?
340
00:25:57,936 --> 00:25:59,237
What's next?
341
00:25:59,237 --> 00:26:01,239
What does this look like in six months?
342
00:26:01,239 --> 00:26:03,542
What happens if this person isn't here?
343
00:26:03,542 --> 00:26:08,678
In the absence of scaling to this level that you're talking about, what now happens?
344
00:26:08,678 --> 00:26:15,051
So every possible scenario that you could think of, we want to know the potential outcome.
345
00:26:15,051 --> 00:26:25,715
You know, there are no, there's a lot of very smart founders and early stage company
leaders, and there's a lot of very smart mammoth company leaders as well.
346
00:26:25,715 --> 00:26:33,710
To think that we're going to get the same success level at both of those areas is
unlikely.
347
00:26:33,770 --> 00:26:34,710
I mean,
348
00:26:34,858 --> 00:26:36,279
We see it in sports too.
349
00:26:36,279 --> 00:26:47,768
mean, there's people that are good at, you you could be the A player on a Division II team
that would never even hit the playing field on a pro team.
350
00:26:47,768 --> 00:26:58,233
And I just feel like you have to understand the intrinsic values of what we're bringing to
the table for what goals that we're set to accomplish.
351
00:26:58,233 --> 00:26:59,394
What is the goal?
352
00:26:59,394 --> 00:27:01,583
Is the goal customer acquisition?
353
00:27:01,583 --> 00:27:03,343
is the goal scale.
354
00:27:03,403 --> 00:27:11,303
You know, my good friend Scott Johnson, he's a professional coach for founders and early
stage companies.
355
00:27:11,303 --> 00:27:14,483
He talks about something called the founder's curse.
356
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:19,800
Founders do a very good job of getting all the blocking and tackling out of the way.
357
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,120
They've got a great idea.
358
00:27:21,120 --> 00:27:22,040
They're grinders.
359
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:23,760
They work till midnight.
360
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:29,286
But at some point you get to a level of scale and the founder now
361
00:27:29,286 --> 00:27:32,118
is trying to do every job and they can't get out of their own way.
362
00:27:32,118 --> 00:27:34,480
They actually become their own problem.
363
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:40,244
And it's time to exchange that CEO for a CEO that's ready for that next level of scale.
364
00:27:40,244 --> 00:27:41,656
There's nothing wrong with that.
365
00:27:41,656 --> 00:27:42,826
It doesn't mean there was something.
366
00:27:42,826 --> 00:27:44,407
This guy is a builder.
367
00:27:44,407 --> 00:27:46,148
This guy is a scaler.
368
00:27:46,148 --> 00:27:48,750
You know, this one is a maintainer.
369
00:27:48,950 --> 00:27:53,265
There are different levels of people that that support different levels of jobs.
370
00:27:53,265 --> 00:27:56,841
So I think it's important to know where are we going today?
371
00:27:56,841 --> 00:28:06,127
tomorrow, six months from today, five years from today, because a lot of those answers
will help guide us to the type of profile that we're looking for.
372
00:28:06,127 --> 00:28:08,571
Yeah.
373
00:28:08,654 --> 00:28:13,638
Yeah, it's interesting because I've seen the same thing happen with acquisitions as well.
374
00:28:13,638 --> 00:28:25,747
When companies, larger companies acquire smaller companies and they retain the founder,
you know, because obviously they want to hold onto that intellectual capital for as long
375
00:28:25,747 --> 00:28:26,469
as they can.
376
00:28:26,469 --> 00:28:32,033
But they hold on to them and they promote them into a role inside this now corporate
beast.
377
00:28:32,033 --> 00:28:35,359
But to your point, they're a builder, they're a creator.
378
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:45,519
And so therefore that is not their natural home unless it's what they want and they can,
you know, people are allowed to change and grow and so on and so forth.
379
00:28:45,519 --> 00:28:55,279
But typically my experience has been that does not end well, you know, that, you know,
there should be a clean, right, golden handcuffs for a period of time.
380
00:28:55,279 --> 00:28:59,439
And then thanks very much for the service and off onto your next adventure.
381
00:28:59,919 --> 00:29:04,619
Just for their benefit as much as for the corporate entities benefit.
382
00:29:04,707 --> 00:29:09,251
Yeah, I think we have to just ask more questions about the goals and objectives.
383
00:29:09,251 --> 00:29:10,993
What are we trying to accomplish?
384
00:29:10,993 --> 00:29:12,634
What is our time frame?
385
00:29:12,634 --> 00:29:13,796
What hurts us?
386
00:29:13,796 --> 00:29:15,287
What helps us?
387
00:29:15,287 --> 00:29:22,244
there's you talk about, Bethany, you were talking about acquisitions and there's mergers
and acquisitions that are constant in this business.
388
00:29:22,244 --> 00:29:29,299
And, you know, this story appears a lot in our line of business where two companies come
together and.
389
00:29:29,299 --> 00:29:35,379
eventually somebody gets shaken out or one side of the organization or the other side of
the organization.
390
00:29:35,399 --> 00:29:40,539
You had 10 people, we have 10 people, we only need 15 people, five gotta go.
391
00:29:41,259 --> 00:29:44,999
And it just happens over and over and over again.
392
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:49,340
you know, it just comes down to objectives.
393
00:29:49,340 --> 00:29:52,040
What exactly are we trying to accomplish?
394
00:29:52,340 --> 00:29:56,660
And I have a phrase that I like to say, you this goes back to the turnover issue.
395
00:29:56,660 --> 00:29:58,184
I know it's tough in my...
396
00:29:58,417 --> 00:30:03,240
I do have a heart for the people who are getting shaken out, but it's just business.
397
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:04,230
It's just business.
398
00:30:04,230 --> 00:30:08,704
We're in the business of business and and you're going to win and you're going to lose.
399
00:30:08,704 --> 00:30:12,225
And there's there is no one career for a lifetime.
400
00:30:12,466 --> 00:30:18,259
The days of working 30 years for one company are long past, especially if you're in sales.
401
00:30:18,259 --> 00:30:20,340
These are the warriors in our business.
402
00:30:20,340 --> 00:30:22,752
These are the people that are out there.
403
00:30:22,752 --> 00:30:24,107
Battle Axes.
404
00:30:24,107 --> 00:30:27,161
on the front lines, in the trenches, getting dirty.
405
00:30:27,161 --> 00:30:29,604
When they win, they win big.
406
00:30:30,466 --> 00:30:36,253
But rest assured, if they're losing, you're going to get cut.
407
00:30:36,675 --> 00:30:38,967
And it's a dog-eat-dog world.
408
00:30:38,967 --> 00:30:42,590
and I think you have to be very realistic as a salesperson.
409
00:30:42,590 --> 00:30:49,097
If you are not hitting your numbers or if that you're having a lot of friction with
leadership for whatever reason.
410
00:30:49,349 --> 00:30:56,393
You need to start looking before you get put on a pip or before you just get shown the
door because it's going to happen.
411
00:30:56,393 --> 00:30:58,747
Because like you said, it's business is business.
412
00:30:58,999 --> 00:31:03,944
This is maybe a hot take for it's just depressing, but they have no loyalty to you.
413
00:31:03,944 --> 00:31:06,085
These companies have zero loyalty.
414
00:31:06,085 --> 00:31:10,667
They have zero interest because at the end of the day, they've got to make money.
415
00:31:10,667 --> 00:31:14,429
And if you're not producing money for them, you're not helping them.
416
00:31:14,450 --> 00:31:21,594
And so that sounds very harsh, but I have had peers and colleagues who have been head in
the sand.
417
00:31:21,594 --> 00:31:25,674
And I'm like, okay, your manager doesn't like you.
418
00:31:25,674 --> 00:31:30,089
you're at 30 % of your number halfway through the year, your pipeline is terrible.
419
00:31:30,089 --> 00:31:34,354
Like you've got like, go look, go see Brian just posted this thing.
420
00:31:34,354 --> 00:31:36,136
One of his guys just posted this.
421
00:31:36,136 --> 00:31:38,024
Like maybe you should apply.
422
00:31:38,024 --> 00:31:43,791
And it's sad on one hand, but on the other hand, it's realistic.
423
00:31:43,791 --> 00:31:45,803
You got to look out for number one.
424
00:31:45,803 --> 00:31:46,615
Amen.
425
00:31:46,615 --> 00:31:50,941
I have a saying and see if you can read this on my coffee cup.
426
00:31:51,241 --> 00:31:54,376
always be recruiting.
427
00:31:54,376 --> 00:31:54,828
You
428
00:31:54,828 --> 00:31:57,680
could have another coffee cup made that would be always be searching.
429
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,921
I mean, there is no, there is no constant.
430
00:32:01,082 --> 00:32:03,124
you always have to have a toe in the water.
431
00:32:03,124 --> 00:32:12,358
It's candidates, individuals get frustrated when something bad happens and they get
snipped and they didn't see it coming.
432
00:32:12,759 --> 00:32:17,421
And my advice is like, look, you have to stay ready so that you don't need to get ready.
433
00:32:17,421 --> 00:32:19,382
Your, your days, you never know.
434
00:32:19,382 --> 00:32:21,984
The company is always going to do what's in their own best interest.
435
00:32:21,984 --> 00:32:23,164
Therefore.
436
00:32:23,460 --> 00:32:26,824
You always need to do what's in your own best interest.
437
00:32:28,326 --> 00:32:30,048
It's just business.
438
00:32:30,270 --> 00:32:43,750
I always adopted an attitude, whether it was your company or others, of if some, if a
recruiter approached me and said, can I have a call with you to discuss an opportunity?
439
00:32:43,750 --> 00:32:46,465
I always, always took the call.
440
00:32:46,465 --> 00:32:54,070
Even if I had no interest, even if I knew I was two months away from a big commission
check or whatever else it might be.
441
00:32:54,290 --> 00:33:01,674
because of exactly what you describe, having those relationships, having those networks
and reciprocating.
442
00:33:01,674 --> 00:33:09,639
So if that opportunity is not for me, let me tell you about three people that I know that
might be a fit for that.
443
00:33:09,639 --> 00:33:21,682
And I don't know if they're looking or not, but help to build the relationship and feed
the relationship with those organizations because one day, one day you're going to need
444
00:33:21,682 --> 00:33:22,210
them.
445
00:33:22,210 --> 00:33:33,110
and you're gonna need to be able to call and say, hey, we haven't talked for a while, but
I had your number since the last we talked, I your email, whatever it might be.
446
00:33:33,230 --> 00:33:36,209
I think I need you your picture.
447
00:33:36,209 --> 00:33:39,134
half a dozen of my friends this past year.
448
00:33:39,134 --> 00:33:43,971
I was just looking through on LinkedIn all my messages the other day and I was like, I
placed six people.
449
00:33:43,971 --> 00:33:47,885
So Brian, maybe I should just come and work for you because apparently...
450
00:33:48,836 --> 00:33:50,079
Always be hiring.
451
00:33:50,079 --> 00:33:51,352
Always be hiring.
452
00:33:51,352 --> 00:33:52,454
Or is it be hiring?
453
00:33:52,454 --> 00:33:56,427
Because it was, you know, recruiters would come along and be like, we're looking for this.
454
00:33:56,427 --> 00:34:00,620
I'm like, well, I don't do this or I'm not interested at this time, whatever.
455
00:34:00,801 --> 00:34:02,282
But I know so and so is looking.
456
00:34:02,282 --> 00:34:08,048
So I placed like three different salespeople, two people in like marketing and one in like
a product management role.
457
00:34:08,048 --> 00:34:14,734
And that at some point that karma will come around or maybe that's repayment for karma
I've already put out there.
458
00:34:14,734 --> 00:34:16,705
Cause every single one.
459
00:34:16,705 --> 00:34:19,776
I went back through my LinkedIn and looked at my career.
460
00:34:19,936 --> 00:34:28,440
Every single one of the jobs that I've held has either been through someone that I've
previously worked with saying, Hey, Bethany, I'm here now.
461
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,851
Come work with me, which is lovely.
462
00:34:30,851 --> 00:34:38,966
Or it's been through a recruiter, someone reaching out to me, head hunting me and saying,
we like the look of you.
463
00:34:38,966 --> 00:34:40,777
We think we've got a good fit.
464
00:34:40,777 --> 00:34:44,478
So that just goes to prove you've got to be making
465
00:34:44,750 --> 00:34:56,187
these connections and these networking and saying yes to a call, even if you're happy in
your role and you're good, someone, if a recruit, if a legitimate recruiter, legitimate,
466
00:34:56,187 --> 00:35:04,151
cause there's a lot of shady ones out there, if a legitimate recruiter comes along and
wants to talk to you, talk to them.
467
00:35:04,403 --> 00:35:07,807
Here's a message to your job seekers that may be listening to this.
468
00:35:07,807 --> 00:35:13,171
think of the values that go beyond just the fact, maybe it is the magic job of the
lifetime.
469
00:35:13,171 --> 00:35:15,512
Obviously, that that would be valuable.
470
00:35:15,512 --> 00:35:26,610
A second value is you have the opportunity to get to know a company that is in your space
that you might be unfamiliar with, that would satisfy some level of curiosity.
471
00:35:26,610 --> 00:35:28,902
I you've got to keep your head on the swivel out there.
472
00:35:28,902 --> 00:35:30,162
Who's doing what?
473
00:35:30,162 --> 00:35:31,240
What are they about?
474
00:35:31,240 --> 00:35:32,961
What's their value proposition?
475
00:35:32,961 --> 00:35:33,791
Are they winning?
476
00:35:33,791 --> 00:35:34,623
Are they losing?
477
00:35:34,623 --> 00:35:36,184
Aren't you curious?
478
00:35:36,184 --> 00:35:38,305
Take the call for that reason.
479
00:35:38,305 --> 00:35:41,628
And the third reason is extending your network.
480
00:35:41,628 --> 00:35:48,832
have to be the most important thing any of us could be doing in the career management area
is expanding our network.
481
00:35:48,832 --> 00:35:58,210
And, you know, the older I get, I mean, I was told that from an early age, but the older I
get, just the more it resonates in my life.
482
00:35:58,430 --> 00:36:08,347
I go to any meeting, meet any person at any time, be it in the gym, be it in a conference,
be it in a, you know, at a fun run or something.
483
00:36:08,347 --> 00:36:13,409
You never know who this person is and what they might be able to do for you.
484
00:36:13,409 --> 00:36:17,091
So you have to just keep the tentacles out and expand your network.
485
00:36:17,091 --> 00:36:23,037
So sure, maybe you get the job of lifetime, but you're going to learn more about the
companies in your space.
486
00:36:23,037 --> 00:36:24,864
You're going to extend your network.
487
00:36:24,864 --> 00:36:31,173
And like you said, Stuart, you could even refer a friend in there, help your friend out
and help the company out for giving their friend.
488
00:36:31,173 --> 00:36:32,545
There's so many good reasons.
489
00:36:32,545 --> 00:36:35,459
just, don't understand not taking the recruiter call.
490
00:36:35,459 --> 00:36:37,492
I don't understand not taking the company call.
491
00:36:37,492 --> 00:36:39,213
If the company called, take it.
492
00:36:51,518 --> 00:36:55,720
So Brian, with that said though, with all the networking, networking is great.
493
00:36:55,720 --> 00:37:03,443
I have a belief that the Rolodex is bullshit because I have been asked in so many
interviews, well, what's your Rolodex like?
494
00:37:03,443 --> 00:37:06,284
my response now is my Rolodex is great.
495
00:37:06,284 --> 00:37:07,465
I've got a great Rolodex.
496
00:37:07,465 --> 00:37:09,305
I've been doing this for 10, 15 years.
497
00:37:09,305 --> 00:37:11,025
My dad did it for years.
498
00:37:11,026 --> 00:37:12,866
I've got a great Rolodex.
499
00:37:12,866 --> 00:37:15,867
Does that mean I'm going to use my Rolodex to sell your stuff?
500
00:37:15,867 --> 00:37:16,637
No.
501
00:37:16,638 --> 00:37:35,681
Because I think I don't know of, I'm gonna say anyone who has a list of 20 plus CMIOs who
are just sat there with a little pile of money waiting for Johnny to call to just throw
502
00:37:35,681 --> 00:37:36,341
Johnny money.
503
00:37:36,341 --> 00:37:39,464
Cause we love Johnny so much and I'll buy anything that Johnny has.
504
00:37:39,464 --> 00:37:42,266
I think the Rolodex myth is bullshit.
505
00:37:42,266 --> 00:37:43,326
Your take.
506
00:37:43,539 --> 00:37:44,479
It's interesting.
507
00:37:44,479 --> 00:37:52,959
So I hired two people this year within the last year, senior executives, operators coming
from the space.
508
00:37:53,210 --> 00:37:55,110
Kelly Lower she is wonderful.
509
00:37:55,110 --> 00:37:57,370
She was 17 years with McKesson.
510
00:37:57,370 --> 00:38:00,830
She was a leader with Phreesia for a while.
511
00:38:00,831 --> 00:38:03,611
She's she's been there, done that in a lot of spots.
512
00:38:03,611 --> 00:38:05,711
And then I've got a guy, Darren Cross.
513
00:38:05,771 --> 00:38:09,351
We placed Darren in 2010 with
514
00:38:09,628 --> 00:38:11,969
Merge Healthcare later became IBM.
515
00:38:11,969 --> 00:38:15,960
He grew up through the ranks stayed seven years there, hired a few people from us.
516
00:38:15,981 --> 00:38:21,285
He went to a few other companies, Agfa, Canon, Waystar, all these people in our world.
517
00:38:21,285 --> 00:38:23,026
Darren knows everybody.
518
00:38:23,026 --> 00:38:25,219
Kelly knows everybody.
519
00:38:25,219 --> 00:38:34,130
So I'm going to give you an example of where, so both of these two came to work for us and
thought, I'm going to make a million deals because I've got this huge Rolodex.
520
00:38:34,190 --> 00:38:35,771
So even when they
521
00:38:35,771 --> 00:38:38,052
And they do have a huge Rolodex.
522
00:38:38,303 --> 00:38:40,304
But it was more difficult than they thought.
523
00:38:40,304 --> 00:38:46,128
They've both been very productive for us in other ways, but it wasn't in the way they
thought they were going to be.
524
00:38:46,128 --> 00:38:51,933
So even when you have the Rolodex, it doesn't automatically mean timing is right, culture
is right.
525
00:38:51,933 --> 00:38:54,334
There's so many moving factors.
526
00:38:54,334 --> 00:38:59,398
And so each of them over the course of a year brought in one from the Friend Network.
527
00:38:59,398 --> 00:39:03,310
I think they each thought they were going to bring 30.
528
00:39:03,314 --> 00:39:03,925
from the print.
529
00:39:03,925 --> 00:39:06,046
So there's the inverse of what you're talking about.
530
00:39:06,046 --> 00:39:09,490
Somebody thought they had the Rolodex that it just it didn't work that way.
531
00:39:09,490 --> 00:39:18,960
And to think that these buyers, CMIOs, CEOs, CFOs are such good friends with you that I'm
buying whatever you're selling.
532
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:22,283
think I think we've got to get back to what is the real thing that we're looking for.
533
00:39:22,283 --> 00:39:26,727
Is it the Rolodex or is it their effectiveness in being able to get
534
00:39:27,022 --> 00:39:38,943
a locked in meeting and their effectiveness and being able to pitch a compelling message
with a good ROI and work a complicated process with multiple stakeholders.
535
00:39:38,943 --> 00:39:40,192
That's what we care about.
536
00:39:40,192 --> 00:39:42,585
It doesn't matter how big your Rolodex is.
537
00:39:42,586 --> 00:39:44,617
It matters how effectively you use it.
538
00:39:45,349 --> 00:39:56,433
The challenge I see is a lot of the things that I've been approached in in the last 25
years since I moved here to the States is smaller startup companies and they think they
539
00:39:56,433 --> 00:39:58,294
are buying a Rolodex.
540
00:39:58,294 --> 00:40:05,039
They think they are buying that easy button door entry into a large corporation.
541
00:40:05,039 --> 00:40:06,221
I
542
00:40:06,221 --> 00:40:08,933
honestly don't think it works well.
543
00:40:08,933 --> 00:40:16,433
think you might, to your point, you might get one or two opportunities created out of
that, you're not gonna get 25.
544
00:40:16,433 --> 00:40:26,919
And it's much more about the effectiveness of the individual because quite often those
people had those relationships with those organizations because those organizations and
545
00:40:26,919 --> 00:40:33,232
the C levels who were buying were buying what they were selling at that time.
546
00:40:33,317 --> 00:40:33,668
Mm.
547
00:40:33,668 --> 00:40:40,114
I think I have a message for your founders and hiring leaders, CROs and hiring leaders
too.
548
00:40:40,114 --> 00:40:41,955
Just like I had the message for the candidates.
549
00:40:41,955 --> 00:40:43,776
I have a very similar message.
550
00:40:44,097 --> 00:41:00,159
Instead of focusing on finding people with a Rolodex, why not find smarter, better, more
efficient ways of selling the message that you have about how effective your ROI is, about
551
00:41:00,159 --> 00:41:01,006
how
552
00:41:01,006 --> 00:41:08,926
useful your solution is about how impactful it is in today's marketplace.
553
00:41:09,026 --> 00:41:17,626
Because if I'm the person that has everybody's got a Rolodex to some degree, but if I'm
the person that you want, why do I care?
554
00:41:17,626 --> 00:41:23,586
Why do I care to bring my resources, my time, my attention to your facility?
555
00:41:23,726 --> 00:41:30,831
Why don't you convince me that you have assets that I need to do my job effectively?
556
00:41:30,831 --> 00:41:32,971
Why don't we flip the switch a little bit?
557
00:41:32,971 --> 00:41:35,691
think too often we get real into your point.
558
00:41:35,691 --> 00:41:37,411
There's a lot of startup companies out there.
559
00:41:37,411 --> 00:41:38,631
It's like, hey, nobody's ever heard of them.
560
00:41:38,631 --> 00:41:39,911
I know you got a great solution.
561
00:41:39,911 --> 00:41:43,791
I know it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, but they don't know who you are.
562
00:41:43,791 --> 00:41:53,971
Why don't you focus your attention on giving them a reason of why they should bring their
career to your playground and they can grow and develop and be effective?
563
00:41:53,971 --> 00:41:57,571
What is it that you do that's unique and different than anybody else?
564
00:41:57,571 --> 00:42:00,534
Let's spend more time in that area instead of focused on
565
00:42:00,534 --> 00:42:01,426
My Rolodex.
566
00:42:01,426 --> 00:42:05,027
Well, it's we we are now days away.
567
00:42:05,027 --> 00:42:14,069
I'm going to transition now to a little a little bit of future casting because we are days
away from the end of twenty twenty five and this episode will go out just before New
568
00:42:14,069 --> 00:42:14,471
Year's.
569
00:42:14,471 --> 00:42:19,944
And one of the things that is in a lot of people's mind is the twenty twenty six.
570
00:42:19,944 --> 00:42:24,258
So they're closing if they're a calendar fiscal, they're closing out their year.
571
00:42:24,258 --> 00:42:27,389
They're hopefully enjoying some success if they're not.
572
00:42:27,389 --> 00:42:28,999
They're preparing for.
573
00:42:29,381 --> 00:42:35,036
sales kickoff and QBRs and all the things that come in the early months of a new year.
574
00:42:35,036 --> 00:42:40,049
And they may be contemplating, you know, I wonder what the market's like out there.
575
00:42:40,049 --> 00:42:41,310
I wonder what's going on.
576
00:42:41,310 --> 00:42:44,431
It's maybe two years since they look for a job.
577
00:42:44,431 --> 00:42:47,665
It may be 10 years since they look for a job.
578
00:42:47,665 --> 00:42:52,519
But what are the things that you're seeing lying ahead for 2026?
579
00:42:52,519 --> 00:42:57,051
And what, if anything, is different or changing in the last kind of
580
00:42:57,051 --> 00:43:00,149
12, 18 months and trends that you're seeing.
581
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:01,274
Well...
582
00:43:01,525 --> 00:43:03,797
There's two different types of pitches.
583
00:43:03,797 --> 00:43:09,003
There's the nice to have solutions, and then there's the must have solutions.
584
00:43:09,003 --> 00:43:16,008
And usually the nice to have solutions are sexy and fun and interesting to talk about, but
the utilization is low.
585
00:43:16,009 --> 00:43:20,352
And then you have the must have solutions that are not sexy and fun to talk about.
586
00:43:20,419 --> 00:43:22,301
but the utilization is high.
587
00:43:22,301 --> 00:43:25,015
So think cybersecurity or cloud storage.
588
00:43:25,015 --> 00:43:26,798
mean, who wants to talk about that?
589
00:43:26,798 --> 00:43:27,679
Everybody needs it.
590
00:43:27,679 --> 00:43:28,801
It's like electricity.
591
00:43:28,801 --> 00:43:29,763
Everybody needs it.
592
00:43:29,763 --> 00:43:32,666
It's not fun to talk about, but everybody needs it.
593
00:43:32,666 --> 00:43:36,469
So I think you have to make a decision on how much risk you want to take on.
594
00:43:36,470 --> 00:43:41,675
You want to take on something that's new and cutting edge and bleeding edge, maybe.
595
00:43:41,675 --> 00:43:43,765
I mean, AI is in its infant stage.
596
00:43:43,765 --> 00:43:47,556
I mean, we're seeing it used in all of the administrative side.
597
00:43:47,556 --> 00:43:53,739
It's doing some coding, it's doing documentation, it's doing some really great things
administratively.
598
00:43:53,739 --> 00:44:00,181
I don't think that we're going to, we as an economy, we as a country can allow it to do
all the big jobs that we needed to do.
599
00:44:00,181 --> 00:44:01,703
Otherwise there will be a revolt.
600
00:44:01,703 --> 00:44:06,118
I mean, we all need jobs, we can't, AI needs to be not
601
00:44:06,118 --> 00:44:11,541
super smart needs to be a little dumber than optimal smart so that we all still have jobs.
602
00:44:11,581 --> 00:44:14,173
So I think, look, the needs are the same.
603
00:44:14,173 --> 00:44:18,426
We need to integrate the information like we always have needed.
604
00:44:18,426 --> 00:44:29,443
We need ways of treating, you know, getting more effective at moving the patient forward
throughout the process, communicating with the patient.
605
00:44:29,443 --> 00:44:32,174
Everybody's got some type of a communication.
606
00:44:32,322 --> 00:44:37,476
tool and I heard on a podcast the other day, I almost feel like we're over communicating.
607
00:44:37,476 --> 00:44:38,707
Hey, did you take your meds?
608
00:44:38,707 --> 00:44:39,905
Have you done the adherence?
609
00:44:39,905 --> 00:44:41,889
It is time to go to the doctor.
610
00:44:42,190 --> 00:44:42,791
And so.
611
00:44:42,791 --> 00:44:45,303
There's a lot of noise and it's tough to cut through the noise.
612
00:44:45,303 --> 00:44:50,977
I think you just have to find something that resonates with you because of what's going on
with your personal life.
613
00:44:51,378 --> 00:44:54,441
And I don't know about you, I don't want to sell just anything.
614
00:44:54,441 --> 00:45:00,656
I mean, if push came to shove and I had to go to work for McDonald's and Flip Burgers, I
would, but.
615
00:45:00,882 --> 00:45:03,754
I'm not there and I have choices in what I could do.
616
00:45:03,754 --> 00:45:14,449
So why don't I start with what I care about, what has affected my family and what problems
have I seen and how about I focus on that particular area for my job search?
617
00:45:14,449 --> 00:45:15,960
I think that would start.
618
00:45:16,345 --> 00:45:25,361
Bethany and her brother, when they were little, so really my wife, bought a Father's Day
gift for me once, which was a mug.
619
00:45:25,361 --> 00:45:29,303
By the way, if you would like your Haveren mug, visit the store.
620
00:45:29,951 --> 00:45:33,654
We got lots of nice merch there, including t-shirts and hoes, and they're in their mag.
621
00:45:33,654 --> 00:45:39,292
But they bought a mug that had one of those kind of cartoons on the outside of it.
622
00:45:39,410 --> 00:45:50,045
And it was a guy with spectacles and a briefcase on a rowing boat sailing away from some
Eskimos.
623
00:45:50,045 --> 00:45:57,930
That's not a polite correct, politically correct term now, Eskimos, outside the igloo
surrounded by refrigerators.
624
00:45:58,250 --> 00:46:05,055
And underneath it said, Ralph, King of Salesmen, which is funny because it's like selling,
selling.
625
00:46:05,055 --> 00:46:06,427
refrigerators to Eskimos.
626
00:46:06,427 --> 00:46:11,872
But I always said, I'd love it, it's funny, but I never want to be that.
627
00:46:11,872 --> 00:46:17,659
I never want to be trying to sell something that actually people don't need, don't want.
628
00:46:17,659 --> 00:46:26,296
I need to have a personal emotional feeling about the proposition that I'm involved in.
629
00:46:26,387 --> 00:46:37,032
That's why I was so long in clinical software, even back in the days when doctors did not
want an electronic medical record back in the 2000s.
630
00:46:37,032 --> 00:46:43,265
So I agree with you that that connectedness and that desire to be there over and above the
money.
631
00:46:43,265 --> 00:46:44,065
Yeah, that's great.
632
00:46:44,065 --> 00:46:46,105
That's why your coin operated.
633
00:46:46,105 --> 00:46:48,156
We like to be in sales because of that.
634
00:46:48,156 --> 00:46:51,317
And despite all of the downsides of it.
635
00:46:51,375 --> 00:46:59,958
But I think that passion, that connection with solving problems for people in
organizations is very important.
636
00:47:00,151 --> 00:47:03,931
We get a lot of people asking, I had somebody ask earlier this week, well, how much does
it pay?
637
00:47:03,931 --> 00:47:05,873
I just said, look, you're asking the wrong question.
638
00:47:05,873 --> 00:47:10,144
First of all, I'm not going to waste your time if it's like a gigantic gap.
639
00:47:10,164 --> 00:47:11,584
I'm a professional.
640
00:47:12,284 --> 00:47:14,225
So you're asking the wrong question.
641
00:47:14,225 --> 00:47:19,946
I think the question you should start with, think of it as a of a check down list.
642
00:47:20,427 --> 00:47:23,858
If somebody presents you with an opportunity, you should look at the company.
643
00:47:23,858 --> 00:47:26,048
You do a top level review.
644
00:47:26,134 --> 00:47:26,815
What are they selling?
645
00:47:26,815 --> 00:47:27,786
Who are they selling it to?
646
00:47:27,786 --> 00:47:28,967
What does the widget does it?
647
00:47:28,967 --> 00:47:30,168
What is the ROI?
648
00:47:30,168 --> 00:47:31,790
What problem does it solve?
649
00:47:31,790 --> 00:47:33,471
Can I get behind that?
650
00:47:33,472 --> 00:47:34,933
Is that useful?
651
00:47:34,934 --> 00:47:37,487
And you may think it's useful and I may not think it's useful.
652
00:47:37,487 --> 00:47:40,739
So it's probably a good job prospect for you, but not for me.
653
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:43,963
And I think that should that should really dictate.
654
00:47:44,003 --> 00:47:46,155
Do I take it to the next step or not?
655
00:47:46,155 --> 00:47:47,666
Does it resonate?
656
00:47:47,747 --> 00:47:49,048
Let's start there.
657
00:47:49,521 --> 00:47:53,885
And I think that's what elevates you as a professional.
658
00:47:54,066 --> 00:47:56,321
Are you just, I'm just here to make money.
659
00:47:56,321 --> 00:47:57,841
I don't care what I'm selling.
660
00:47:57,841 --> 00:48:03,937
I could sell fintech or clin tech, or I could sell EHRs for humans, EHRs for animals.
661
00:48:03,937 --> 00:48:06,279
Like, it doesn't really matter to me.
662
00:48:06,620 --> 00:48:07,891
That's fine.
663
00:48:08,142 --> 00:48:16,608
But I think that we have been given such a gift by being able to work in healthcare
technology because what we sell, none of us are doctors.
664
00:48:16,608 --> 00:48:19,900
Dad used to be a nurse, but is not actively, none of us are nurses.
665
00:48:19,900 --> 00:48:22,971
None of us are at the bedside delivering care, right?
666
00:48:22,972 --> 00:48:25,683
So we are not directly changing patients' lives.
667
00:48:25,683 --> 00:48:28,274
We are not directly making people better.
668
00:48:28,274 --> 00:48:33,997
But what's nice about being in this industry is that we can play a tiny part in
669
00:48:34,290 --> 00:48:45,918
making a clinician's life easier with the tools that they use or making sure that they're,
you know, to your point about the kind of the unsexy companies, that infrastructure layer,
670
00:48:45,998 --> 00:48:57,486
working at Rhapsody, I had no idea what, I mean, I knew what data interoperability was,
but I didn't realize how embedded and entrenched and integral it was until I worked there.
671
00:48:57,647 --> 00:49:01,351
And so even there, it's like, I'm responsible.
672
00:49:01,516 --> 00:49:09,398
for making sure that these companies that I'm selling to are getting their data the right
way to the hospitals that they're working with.
673
00:49:09,398 --> 00:49:13,620
Because if this data doesn't flow right, patients don't get lab results.
674
00:49:13,620 --> 00:49:18,293
Patients don't get, you know, MRIs or x-rays or whatever the case may be.
675
00:49:18,293 --> 00:49:23,714
And so it's so exciting that we get to be in an industry where we can make that impact.
676
00:49:23,714 --> 00:49:25,096
So, yeah.
677
00:49:25,096 --> 00:49:35,846
recognize it's good that you found your own way out of because if you focused on the
feature, if you focused on just the data interoperability integration part and you didn't
678
00:49:35,846 --> 00:49:36,937
start you.
679
00:49:36,937 --> 00:49:40,029
I don't know if somebody told you this or you came up with this on your own.
680
00:49:40,029 --> 00:49:49,277
Sounds like you came up with it on your own, but you you deducted that if we don't get
this right, patients don't get their data the way they need it in a timely fashion.
681
00:49:49,277 --> 00:49:53,020
And now you've made it resonate in your own mind.
682
00:49:53,266 --> 00:49:55,586
And you could get behind that.
683
00:49:55,586 --> 00:49:56,207
exactly.
684
00:49:56,207 --> 00:50:01,537
then it makes it a lot easier to sell because you're not just selling a commodity of,
well, it's a pipe.
685
00:50:01,659 --> 00:50:03,246
It's going to move the data.
686
00:50:03,246 --> 00:50:04,036
Yeah.
687
00:50:04,297 --> 00:50:13,544
We, um, I think, I think, I think I referenced it in the episode that we talk when I came
back from Las Vegas and we talked about health.
688
00:50:13,605 --> 00:50:27,328
I actually said that if you are, involved in solution sales, I typically software sales
that before you even get a quota, you should have tattooed on your shoulder benefits, not
689
00:50:27,328 --> 00:50:29,940
features because
690
00:50:30,306 --> 00:50:32,067
It's so critical.
691
00:50:32,067 --> 00:50:41,943
So many people I see go, well, you know, our, yeah, have to put up a power power power and
they're reading down the catalog list and you're like, my God, shoot me.
692
00:50:41,943 --> 00:50:44,534
You know, just don't do that.
693
00:50:44,534 --> 00:50:54,740
You're trying to sell, sell a solution to a problem that a person has that solves a pain
that they have.
694
00:50:54,881 --> 00:50:57,582
And, know, you've got to try and
695
00:50:58,081 --> 00:51:00,375
build your proposition in that form.
696
00:51:00,375 --> 00:51:04,158
Well, Brian, you've been exceedingly generous with your time today.
697
00:51:04,158 --> 00:51:15,016
So it's probably time for us to draw things to a close and let you get back to finding
some more of those ace candidates that you're looking for, for whatever your your hot
698
00:51:15,016 --> 00:51:15,928
engagement is.
699
00:51:15,928 --> 00:51:24,153
And hopefully it's for companies that have got big plans for the new fiscal and going to
do exciting things.
700
00:51:24,274 --> 00:51:25,074
But
701
00:51:25,138 --> 00:51:40,770
Let me ask you, what are the three golden rules you would ask candidates, well, let's
stick with candidates, to consider as they're looking at 2026 and contemplating coming out
702
00:51:40,770 --> 00:51:42,402
into the marketplace?
703
00:51:42,653 --> 00:51:45,807
Yeah, it's a great question and everybody wants to know the secret.
704
00:51:45,807 --> 00:51:47,658
But my three things would be this.
705
00:51:47,658 --> 00:51:49,468
I have an analogy that I like to use.
706
00:51:49,468 --> 00:51:52,520
There's the airplane and there's the landing strip.
707
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:53,920
So here's your first two.
708
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:57,063
Some days you're the airplane, some days you're the landing strip.
709
00:51:57,063 --> 00:51:58,830
The land, let's start with the landing strip.
710
00:51:58,830 --> 00:52:01,186
The airplane doesn't find the landing strip without the lights.
711
00:52:01,186 --> 00:52:05,208
And there are days that you need to be the landing strip and you have to have your lights
on.
712
00:52:05,208 --> 00:52:07,824
You have to be seen from the sky.
713
00:52:07,824 --> 00:52:11,216
And what does that mean from a candidate's perspective?
714
00:52:11,417 --> 00:52:15,420
Your LinkedIn profile needs to be dressed.
715
00:52:15,721 --> 00:52:17,561
You need a current picture.
716
00:52:17,942 --> 00:52:26,088
You need to have a good overview about those behavioral characteristics and talents that
will not be on your resume.
717
00:52:26,109 --> 00:52:30,733
You need to have you need to be engaged whether you're looking for a job or not.
718
00:52:30,733 --> 00:52:33,205
You need to be engaged in your industry.
719
00:52:33,205 --> 00:52:37,828
Take interest in the people who are talking and have something to say in return.
720
00:52:38,259 --> 00:52:43,383
because the more involved and engaged you are, the more attractive you're going to be to a
firm like us.
721
00:52:43,684 --> 00:52:47,227
So turn your lights on, make sure you're being able to see.
722
00:52:47,227 --> 00:52:49,068
Some days you're the airplane.
723
00:52:49,389 --> 00:52:51,670
OK, that means you're the seeker.
724
00:52:51,671 --> 00:52:54,694
And that means you have to put a plan together.
725
00:52:54,694 --> 00:53:00,479
You have to go to your network and proactively outreach and knock on doors.
726
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:03,647
So be willing to do the outreach.
727
00:53:03,647 --> 00:53:05,809
And it goes well beyond just applying for jobs.
728
00:53:05,809 --> 00:53:08,752
And the third thing I would say is be bold.
729
00:53:08,752 --> 00:53:12,785
know, rule number one of marketing, if you've ever had a marketing class, is to be unique
and different.
730
00:53:12,785 --> 00:53:14,817
Find ways of standing out in a crowd.
731
00:53:14,817 --> 00:53:18,701
And this comes down to solution selling, like you were just talking about, Stuart.
732
00:53:18,701 --> 00:53:24,685
You know, at the end of the day, employees are solutions to problems that companies have.
733
00:53:25,146 --> 00:53:31,881
So figure out what problem you solve and find, be bold and creative in ways to convey.
734
00:53:31,881 --> 00:53:34,232
the solution that you have to offer.
735
00:53:34,232 --> 00:53:35,792
It could be done through video.
736
00:53:35,792 --> 00:53:38,215
It could be done through posting.
737
00:53:38,215 --> 00:53:40,655
It could be done through direct messaging.
738
00:53:40,656 --> 00:53:49,120
But one thing that is not unique and different and creative is just hitting the easy
button on applying for jobs.
739
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:52,631
If 800 people are doing it, it's not unique.
740
00:53:52,718 --> 00:53:53,762
Absolutely.
741
00:53:53,762 --> 00:53:56,753
Bethany, any closing thoughts before I wrap up?
742
00:53:56,964 --> 00:53:58,155
No, I love it, Brian.
743
00:53:58,155 --> 00:54:04,609
Thank you so much for joining you and everyone that I've ever interacted with at your
company is just a delight.
744
00:54:04,609 --> 00:54:09,124
So we're lucky to have you in our little network and our listeners network.
745
00:54:09,124 --> 00:54:09,915
love you for saying it.
746
00:54:09,915 --> 00:54:10,976
I both of you guys.
747
00:54:10,976 --> 00:54:14,159
And I appreciate the interest that you're taking in our world.
748
00:54:14,159 --> 00:54:18,013
know, lot of people, nobody, not many people want to talk about what's going on in the
recruiting side.
749
00:54:18,013 --> 00:54:20,956
We're just sort of the underbelly of what's going on.
750
00:54:20,956 --> 00:54:29,004
And I really appreciate you reaching out and saying, hey, let's peel back the layers of
what you do and let's get some exposure in there and give some people some education on
751
00:54:29,004 --> 00:54:29,144
it.
752
00:54:29,144 --> 00:54:31,215
So thank you for giving me that opportunity.
753
00:54:31,335 --> 00:54:45,696
Well, and like I said earlier on, if you see the call come through or you get a recruiter
sort of approaching you from a search firm like AccuSource, just listen.
754
00:54:45,696 --> 00:54:47,538
I mean, yeah, we're all busy.
755
00:54:47,538 --> 00:54:51,160
if you're busy right now, say, hey, can you call me back at?
756
00:54:51,260 --> 00:54:54,322
But have the conversation like we discussed earlier on.
757
00:54:54,322 --> 00:54:56,307
It's so important.
758
00:54:56,307 --> 00:55:04,041
that you establish these repores and you know, one, it allows you to represent yourself as
a human being to that person.
759
00:55:04,041 --> 00:55:07,413
The kids, I suspect that Brian will say, they remember.
760
00:55:07,413 --> 00:55:11,497
They remember the people who cut them dead or ignore them or don't pick up.
761
00:55:11,497 --> 00:55:23,064
And they remember the ones who have warm, friendly conversations, show a reasonable amount
of interest, even if they ultimately say, yeah, that doesn't sound like a fit for me.
762
00:55:23,144 --> 00:55:25,415
And if you can really help,
763
00:55:25,639 --> 00:55:33,514
another colleague, another friend who is looking and does want and is a fit for that, you
know that karma is wonderful.
764
00:55:33,514 --> 00:55:44,814
If you help other people be able to move forward, I think that that's a beautiful thing
and they'll remember, that recruiter will remember, and good fortune will follow you in a
765
00:55:44,814 --> 00:55:45,625
karmic way.
766
00:55:45,625 --> 00:55:48,988
But with that, Brian, thank you very much indeed.
767
00:55:48,988 --> 00:55:50,791
And all I say is...
768
00:55:50,791 --> 00:55:51,445
Thank you.
769
00:55:51,445 --> 00:55:55,048
Thank the audience and keep Haverin