[00:00:00] Nina Endrst: Hi, I'm Nina Endrst

[00:00:05] Anna Toonk: I'm Anna Toonk.

[00:00:06] Nina Endrst: Welcome to how to be human.

[00:00:08] Anna Toonk: A podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humanness.

[00:00:12] Nina Endrst: On this episode, Anna and I discuss fear.

[00:00:15] Anna Toonk: Take a seat clear mind and let's chat.

[00:00:22] Nina Endrst: Hello? Hello. It just got really spooky here.

[00:00:28] Anna Toonk: Did it well, we've we're we have, we were supposed to have thunderstorms and then didn't and I looked to my phone to be like, what is going on with these storms? And our whole area is under a severe thunderstorm while.

[00:00:43] Nina Endrst: I don't think it holds out until five. Like it says, because in the garden house, in my little studio, in the middle of nature, so I'm not trying to be out here in the middle of a thunderstorm and it'll cut out anyway so much to say, feeling like this will be pretty cathartic anyway. I hope anyway. So when are we talking about.

[00:01:10] Anna Toonk: Fear. I feel like my favorite, whether or not people know it, it's their favorite thing. So according to our friend, Oxford languages now and unpleasant emotion caused by the belief that someone or something is dangerous, likely to cause pain or a threat, uh, verb, be afraid of someone or something as likely to be dangerous, painful, or threatening

I would co-sign that it is an unpleasant emotion when I was first. Really like when I first learned that I was anxious, which I was like, oh, that's what's wrong with me. Okay. And realized what a big part fear had in it for when I was prepping for this episode, I was like, looking back and, you know, when you blank, No, like you're looking for something, but you're not sure what it is, you know, I'm like, I know I want to like go back to my notes.

And I was like, even reading an old journal. I was like, but I don't know why, you know? And I was like, well, who knows? Like I just remember that being such a time. I was. Looking at fear. And then I found this journal entry of mine about a premature children's when things fall apart, heart advice.

[00:02:39] Nina Endrst: I used to carry that around in my bag.

[00:02:41] Anna Toonk: Yeah. Well, and, and I found it. And so the story is once there was a young warrior, her teacher told her that she had to do battle with. She didn't want to do that. It seemed too aggressive. It was scary. It seemed unfriendly, but the teacher said she had to do it and gave her the instructions for the battle.

The day arrived, the student warriors stood on one side and fierce stood on the other. The warrior was feeling. And fear was looking big and wrathful, they both had their weapons, the young warrior roused herself, and went toward fear prostrated three times and asked may I have permission to go into battle with you?

Fear said, thank you for showing me so much respect that you ask permission. Then the young warriors said, how can I defeat you? Fear replied. My weapons are that I talk fast and I get very close to your. Then you get completely unnerved and you do whatever I say. If you don't do what I tell you, I have no power.

You can listen to me and you can have respect for me. You can even be convinced by me, but if you don't do what I say, I have no power in that way. The student warrior learned how to defeat fear. And I just wrote this journal energy that was. Fuck Buddhism. Thanks. Good. It was like, oh, just tell him, listen to it, all that stuff.

But it really brought home to me, the tricky relationship between, I think like fear and anxiety when it really is don't listen to it. Versus when it is like girl, you in danger, you know, like really. How you start to differentiate, like which one you're feeling?

[00:04:18] Nina Endrst: Well, that's literally what's up on my screen right now. The difference between fear and anxiety, because that's the first place. As well when I was looking, you know, digging around and also, I think we often mistake them for each other. Right. W a couple of years ago when Milo was little, we were walking down the street and. He was in, you know, the little carrier thing and we had just moved to Hudson.

And, you know, I've said this a couple of times when we came back, Trump was president and I was scared of like everything and I didn't know who had guns or whatever. And I were walking down the street and someone said like, there are these guys having a fight. And it was right. We used to live in town and it was like right as I was working my path essentially.

And. I all of a sudden I heard like someone has a gun and I went into like panic obviously, and just ran down. Tell me why I ran down an alley and would love to know, like, not the main street, but an alley. And I'm running with my baby in an alley. And I'm like, what are you going to do? Like, you're going to die.

Like, this is the part where you die. And I was so terrified and. I just remember trying really hard to be like, is this, is this fear because you're really in danger or is this, you heard something you don't you're and you're just, anxiety is now like propelling you forward into this dark hole. And this guy drove by and saw me and then drove back and he's like, are you okay?

And I said, And he was so not, he thought I was crazy. Like, it was very clear that he thought I was crazy and I'm, and I just think we're so desensitized. And that moment also taught me that obviously I was okay. And I, I don't know if they had guns. I had white pick us up and you know, nothing, I didn't hear about anything, but I, I also saw this man looking at me like, You're fine.

You know, like you're clearly fine. What do you kind of freaking out about or that's what I felt. And I think sometimes anxiety, when you have anxiety, you can Gaslight yourself really easily. So. In that extreme situation, but also in just normal situations. Like if I'm at, I was at the Lowe's the other day with way, and I'm like, I told you, like, okay, waiting for like somebody to come in and shoot us.

And I'm like that, thing's it like, there's, you're not really in danger right now, but I just think it's really hard sometimes to tell the difference and also to be patient with ourselves when one arises or the.

[00:07:11] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I, I mean, I think that fear and anxiety have a really symbiotic relationship, you know, I think fear is, I mean, We have it for a reason.

And the sense is, you know, ideally to keep ourselves alive, you know, it's a pretty primal thing, but I think anxiety is like, Hey fear, what if we teamed up? You know? And I mean, the thing with both of them is often like they're not true. And, and that's what I think is like, Tricky is a lot. I was reading a lot about fear and about how much the fear is like present fear is nine times out of 10, like actually about your past and.

To me was really interesting, you know, of so often it is kind of this projection, you know, but you also can't. I mean, I'm somebody that when something goes down, I become IC calm. Like freakishly calm, you know? And it's, it's been that way ever since I was like a kid, you know, that I'm the one who's like, okay, like what's hap like what's going on.

Let's figure, you know, it was hilarious to me when I was in Costa Rica and there was an earthquake and. At first, I was like, God, well that fucking truck like move on. You know? Cause it felt like when, uh, a truck is like idling at first, I was just like, oh, you're really like kind of ruining my poolside breakfast.

And, and then I was like, it's not stopping. And it's like the earth, you know? And I was just. Okay, well, let's stand up. It doesn't seem to really accomplish anything. Um, let's just try to stay, uh, balanced and then like, let's move away from anything that could fall. And the front I was with was terrified and I'm not saying.

Fearful of an earthquake is like not good, you know, like it's fair. But what was interesting to me was all the ways that she was trying to mask it rather than just being like, I'm scared because I mean, I was new to earthquakes, not really super familiar with them. Um, haven't really lived somewhere with where that's like a thing, you know, despite also experiencing one in New York once where all of us were like, why did we feel nauseous?

[00:09:33] Nina Endrst: Or, yeah, I remember that.

[00:09:35] Anna Toonk: Yeah, it was really weird. The whole newsroom Chuck. And I was like, uh,

yeah, we were, it was like, where do we go in down? No, we only found out because of Twitter. We were like, oh, that's what it was. You know, all of us were quiet. And then we were like, oh, it was an earthquake. So after the earthquake, the hotel we were in.

Playing it cool. But they were like, Hey everybody, like come and get in this van. Cause they were taking us to higher land because the, then we were under tsunami war, a watch, you know? So they had taken us to these properties. They have up in the Hills, um, to watch and see what was happening and get, you know, and it was just like interesting to me.

And I don't know if it's just because like my, you know, Like my thing has been disassociation. Like my struggle has been to remain present and stuff that I don't know if it's like related to that, but I can kind of like compartmentalize and go somewhere else for a little time, a little bit. And then like later I might be like, that was fucking scary.

But like in the moment often I'm more like go into like first responder mode of just like, what is happening? Where do we, you know, like I just get like super. Practical in a way. And I feel like other times when I've really like given into my fear, which is honestly a New York band generated by rodents really?

Oh yeah. Yeah, don't have it. Well, you know, I think, but more it's because I feel also like invaded, you know, I feel powerless and stuff. It's much more about the psychology than it is the tiny,

[00:11:16] Nina Endrst: literally the smallest.

[00:11:18] Anna Toonk: Exactly. It's so stupid. It's so stupid. The affairs,

[00:11:23] Nina Endrst: I've just, I'm like the girl who literally does not consider her safety like ever, he was like terrified of fucking money.

[00:11:30] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I mean, I, honestly, I think it's their audacity that I'm afraid of. I told you about when I came home and one was scaling my fucking curtain. That's when I was like, sorry, everyone burning the building down, you know, my bad. I think you'll all agree, you know, but I think like for me it comes, I feel like so, so many times.

Been afraid or been in a scary situation or a fearful situation lake it's calm. Later, I feel like you get much more afraid of like situational life safety stuff. Like, you know, all day, much more afraid of like people, you know, I'm like, what are they afraid of? What are they not afraid of that? And you're like, I couldn't give less.

[00:12:18] Nina Endrst: I just don't want you to kill me. I don't give a shit what you say or what you just please don't kill me. But one of the things I have been looking into a lot of, you know, thinking about this episode and. Is just to hit hard and home, especially with what happened yesterday in Buffalo is fear and racism and how they create this violent, horrific plus guns society that we're living in.

And. I just can't believe one of the things that the, the whole, you know, theory replacement theory that this kid who was a white supremacist believed in, I read that that more than half of Republicans believe in the same. Theory.

[00:13:06] Anna Toonk: I just it's like they find new ways to be like,

[00:13:10] Nina Endrst: so that over half of them.

So you're, so what just, what just creates, like I was driving to teach yoga this morning and honestly, thank God I'm teaching again, because it really. Gives me like a different purpose. You know, I love working one-on-one with clients, but going to a class and leaving my house also does a lot for me and my fears.

Like I have to talk myself through stuff sometimes, you know, I get up, I get up. I, every time I kiss Milo or not every time I that's being dramatic, but when I kissed my oldest morning, I remember having this moment of like, I feel so lucky. Oh my God, am I going to cry? I was like, oh, Eric OBS. I w I feel so lucky to have him that I just remember walking into my car and being like, he's going to be okay.

You're going to be okay. You're just going to teach a yoga class. And like, this is good for you. And that was the conversation I had. And then it dissipated, but just reading the news or like, not even trying to read the news. Knowing it right. There were three mass shootings this weekend three, there've been 200 this year.

Okay. It's fucking may. So I don't think that fear is misplaced. I don't think that that fear is like, I know for me, I'm not just imagining this like chaotic, dangerous world, like we're living in it.

[00:14:32] Anna Toonk: Yeah. Which is why I can't feed it. I know there's no option. I know you have to participate in it and I can assume every time I go out, I'm going to get shot.

I know I thought my wiring,

[00:14:44] Nina Endrst: no, but I thought of you this morning because I'm like, what would I want to do? You know? And I, and I thought the same thing like you see, you know, and, and even after I was, I was practicing Reiki on somebody after class. Oh, they came back here and something about working with this specific client reminds me of.

Like everybody doesn't have to be. And hopefully isn't in like a dark place, you know, she's in a really happy place. And the Reiki, you know, usually just is all good. Right? Sometimes things will come up that I'm like, oh, okay, I see this. Or I know this. It's pretty pure and beautiful and amazing. And, but her life right now and her energy was so soft.

And so, yeah, and so light. And I was like, oh God, what a reminder that to your point. You don't have to feed it in the night. You don't have to, it doesn't make you a better person. I'm talking to myself and maybe someone out there. Hi, I'm still not God. And I'm talking to myself. Um, but maybe some of you will be able to relate with them.

I think sometimes I trick myself into thinking that if I'm in it and if I'm reading it and if I'm feeling it well, I can't help but feel it. But if I'm participating in it that way, that, that somehow makes me a better ally or makes me a better person or makes me, you know, and it doesn't, it actually.

Yeah, tears me down. I don't want to be blind to it. I don't want to close the door and live, you know, fully in a bubble, but at the same time in order to do what I want to do, which is to help people and to be, you know, have some use on this fuck show of a planet. I do have to feed the other side.

Yeah.

[00:16:43] Anna Toonk: I think that's what gets me. Frustrated about people in general and fear in general is that I don't begrudge anyone, their fear or anxiety where I start to lose patience or I get frustrated or something is when people continually feed it. When they know it's, it makes them unhappy, you know? And, um, But because I think a lot of people, especially in terms of anxiety, which like, listen, I'm in those anxiety, those anxious trenches with you.

I'm not someone without anxiety, but I know that it's something that like, if you're not addressing it, yeah. It gets worse. You know, like it becomes the loudest voice, you know, in your head. And I think a lot of people start to get confused and thinks that like anxiety and fear is a personality. And it, that frustrates me so much because I feel like so many of the people who go down that path have so much to offer.

And then like, fear is Robbie. Us have that, you know, it's robbing them of their personhood and it's robbing us of whatever they would create. I've been reading all this stuff about artists lately and it's been wonderful, but, um, I wanted to share also this, uh, quote about Georgia O'Keeffe who we both love.

Olivia Lang who I am, fan girling so hard for it right now. I hugely recommend both her book Crudo and our meeting. Funny weather are in an emergency, which, um, I restrained myself and kept reading versus texting Nina 12,000 times yesterday that she needed to read it because they're going to so, so, so, so good.

The first, um, chunk of the book is all about artist and their process. And. It's just a book called again. Um, in emergency. Yeah. Funny weather are in an, in, in art, in an emergency. It started as a column she was doing for both the guardian and frees magazine and they wanted her to write about seven. She was like, uh, things.

I think they approached her in 2017. She was like, uh, Feel fucked right now. Like what, you know? And she was like, I didn't know what to write about. And so she became really interested in artists and like what they did in times of turmoil and stuff. And. You know, the whole kind of like preface of the book is about that.

And like, what is the point of art? And she's like, I think art is like a big part of it is to remind us of possibility and to remind us of like, you know, cause she was talking about some of the criticism that art falls under in hard times of people thinking it's superfluous or whatever. She's like, it lets us imagine a different world.

Like it actually plays this huge part and how we get out of terrible things, you know, did everybody do during the

pandemic?

[00:19:43] Nina Endrst: assumed are exact some kind, even if you're like, you know, a numb nut. Trump person like you're watching TV.

[00:19:52] Anna Toonk: Do you still listen to Joe Rogan and

[00:19:55] Nina Endrst: let's call it art?

[00:19:57] Anna Toonk: Yeah, that's fair.

I mean, it's not art. We would co-sign but fair enough guys, you know, have at it. But I was reading the one about Georgia O'Keeffe and like, I also have so much admiration for, it was, um, a profile of Georgia O'Keeffe Agnes Martin, and I can't remember who the other lady was in the moment. Agnes Martin was a closeted, lesbian, schizophrenia, sick, and goes, goes walk about for a chunk of time and then just appears in Santa Fe.

But these women in these times, when it was like insane for a woman to do anything who are just like, yeah, I'm not gonna, I'm not going to subscribe to any of this. And I'm going to peace out and go to the desert and get real weird with it. It's just like, I mean, that would be. Radical now, you know, like it, it still would be kind of nuts.

If one of our friends said to us, I'm just going to the desert and we're going to make art. And cause I feel a clear sense of purpose. That's what I'm supposed to do. We would be like, all right, can't wait to see what happens, but what you know,

[00:20:59] Nina Endrst: totally. I, we have a, a children's book about Georgia O'Keeffe and it's so good.

Yeah. It just like warms my heart so much, but you know, just seeing pictures of her illustrations of her in the desert and in the city at first and, you know, just, I painted all day and I painted all night and I think it's so beautiful to teach Milo something like that. Not that he doesn't see. You know, directly in his dad, but I do think through the lens of a woman also.

Yeah, very it's very

[00:21:35] Anna Toonk: in regardless. So in this guardian essay, which is also in the book, she says, um, Olivia does, and then I'll get into the quote, but she goes in terms of the radical thing she did with paint, nevermind the innovation. Brought to bear on a private life. She forged a passage to a world of openness and freedom, as frightening as it was exhilarating.

And Georgia said I've always been absolutely terrified every single moment of my life. And I've never let it stop me from doing a single thing I wanted to do. That's one of my favorite quotes and. That's the thing to me, that's the thing we all have. Like the, I think one of the, my life so changed when I learned how to be my own friend and in fear and anxiety, it didn't vanquish it.

I still get afraid of shit all the time. I'm anxious about stuff all the time, but learning how to not think like learning how to not make that my north star, because I think for a period of time, All I listened to and it changed everything for me. It made so much more possible for myself to just sort of like learn how to offer myself, you know, like you've talked about in terms of how I work of like, you know, when I'll be like, you know, like that I, that I offer the opposite, you know, that it's, if I go.

Uh, I'm terrified that I'm going to fail and I immediately counter it with, you know, but what if it sucks? You know, and I found often that, like what I was, what I've said I was afraid of, or if unchecked as well, if I didn't know. And that's not to say, like, I'm not seeing this in a way of encouraging, like self gaslighting, but me kind of going what's that.

You know, and, and, and pushing myself further, it helped me figure out what I was actually afraid of. Cause for me, I find it. I feel like you're unusual in the sense of like, I think yours is, is generally, is always on the surface of like, it is the top level. You're like, I'm afraid of dying.

[00:23:51] Nina Endrst: I'm afraid of.

[00:23:52] Anna Toonk: That's it. Yeah. You're like, I'm afraid, like I'm afraid of dying and I'm afraid they will harm me like that is, you know, and like it's really as much, or you're like, I'm afraid. I won't like it. You know? And you're like, I like to like stuff, you know, like yours is like pretty simple and like comes back the, like through a couple of different ones.

Whereas I feel like. Because I'm not a big fan of weakness, you know, like that's a thing for me. Like I don't want to feel weak. I don't want to look weak. I don't want to be weak that I think I used to really sublimate. A lot of my fear is well, because I thought it was weakness. So I also had to learn.

And I think sometimes for me now in my own process of figuring out like, what the fuck I'm actually afraid of, I still have to like pull back a layer, pull back a layer and like really remind myself like it is okay to be afraid.

[00:24:42] Nina Endrst: Well, there's a little quote. I don't know who it's from. It's not a quote.

It's like, I don't know what you would call this because I don't have the word in my brain right now, but it's the word fear spelled out and then, oh yeah. What is that called? Um, so it's false evidence appearing real.

[00:25:00] Anna Toonk: Yeah. What is, what is that? It's I

[00:25:03] Nina Endrst: can't, I can't use my brain enough to be like, what is it when there's words?

And then other words,

sometimes you don't. Um, but I know what you're talking about. Yeah. But I think that's a huge part of what you're saying. I think in part of. I feel too is just walking ourselves. I had, I had a therapist once who said, you know, walk yourself to the edge of the cliff and then what, and then what? And I'm like, so it was constantly in the state of like NMO, whatever.

You know, and what's the worst case scenario, which doesn't sound like a day at the fucking park, but it does help I've I found for a time and help. He also said something to me that at the time I wanted to bitch slap him, but, which is a terrible thing. Obviously I just, I was like, uh, no, but he said it's really helpful if you befriend your anxiety.

And I was like, listen, homie, I'm not in the business of sitting down and having like wine chats with my anxiety. I want this motherfucker out. Just give me the drugs. And I will be on my Merry way. Like I have a busy life. Ooh, that's lightning. I'm scared, but it, it is, this is that real, you know, is what I'm feeling real and not.

Like, I'm not allowed to have feelings about it, but is it currently happening? Is could it potentially happen even if it is potentially real? Like, and then what, you know, so if somebody, I was having like a Veruca salt moment and I know it was, I mean, I have many of them, but teaching a new class in Hudson and I haven't been in my community, like at all.

Because we moved here, I had a baby, then it was a pandemic then I like, don't like people. So like all of those things play together and I've really started to make an effort to put myself out there more and to be where I am forever, however long ago. But when I started the class, I'm not working at a studio, so I'm doing it independently, but at like a dance studio, which is amazing, but I have to build that myself, you know?

And so it's vulnerable and it's also like I found myself being a little bit like, well, what if nobody shows up and why isn't, why is it, why am I not sold out of, you know, all of the classes yet? It's like really verbal assault moment and the classes have. Literally almost booked, but they're kind of like teaching me a lesson of like waiting till the last minute or whatever.

And I did feel a little bit fear of fear around that. Like, I've, I've worked hard. I've been here for a long time and what if this doesn't work or what if I'm not supposed to be doing what I think I'm doing? You know? And so I think it can come in like really small. Kind of ways and surface, and I have to take care of that as equally as I do when I'm like scared of dying.

[00:28:15] Anna Toonk: I mean, I think fears behind a lot of ways we like. Emotionally terrorize ourselves. You know, like I think a lot of things that we're saying is something else, you know, that we're saying is ambition or, you know, whatever is actually fear. You know, it's like, I think we do a lot of stuff to mask that we're afraid, you know, that we're like afraid.

No, one's going to show up. My mom was telling me about friends of hers, that this woman kind of wants to be like the social. You know, director of like a friend group and doesn't, doesn't seem to have self-awareness and so that's not happening. The person doesn't seem to have self-awareness as to why it's not happening.

And. My mom and I were like, what a bummer? Cause like, if they would just chill out, it would, it would probably happen. But like, so my mom was telling me this story about when they were throwing a party and my mom's like, you know, Southern me, I got there right on the dot and no one was there yet. And she's like, they were going nuts calling and texting all the people being like, where are you?

Where are you? Where are you? And she's like, I just, I mean, at that point, like train's left the station, you know, like if no one's coming, like they're not coming or whatever, you know, like, and all this stuff, and we're talking about that. And I was like, that's where I feel like I've gotten better at conserving my energy.

Cause I think also too, once I learned how much energy fear and anxiety was taking from me, that it was easier to go. I'm really afraid. No, one's going to show up for this party than it was to be like, let me text and call everyone. That the result's the same either they're coming or they're not, you know, like I'm going to have to deal with that regardless.

[00:30:04] Nina Endrst: The release of control of, you know, I mean, God, how many times do you have to learn this fucking lesson? Like I just, I know I myself, because it's just whether it's it's coming, it ha it happens. So. Often where I'm just, you know, reminded like w let it go staring at my phone, or, you know, you can only do so much.

I think we have to remember to action is absolutely necessary. However, acting or obsessing. Those are not the same things. Right? And so you can meet an opportunity. You can work really hard. You can be really safe, but you can't. Control it all. And you can't make an and frankly, once we start to kind of go down that road of, of holding things too tightly, they tend to slip through our fingers or we strangle them.

And that's when the magic is lost. Right. Which I'm sure at that book, but there's just this, I think the awareness over and over again of like, Just do what you can do. You know, you can feel your feelings and anxiety, obviously different from fear, but plays with it. Anxiety comes a lot of the time when we are suppressing feelings, right?

So you got to feel the fear, otherwise it's coming to get ya. And that does not feel good. Right? We, we don't want to be chased down. And I think some of the most anxious people fear. The anxiety attack more. You know what I mean? Like, because they know once it, once we know what it feels like, it's like, I don't want another one.

I don't know another one. So it's kind of like this just cycle that we, we do have some, you know, control over. If we can feel the fear or feel our feelings or do sit with what what's actually bothering us, it can kind of dissipate a little.

[00:32:12] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I think that fear has is so, I mean, if like fear and anxiety are besties, they definitely are calling control to like come out for brunch with them, you know?

And I think like something that was really hard for me to understand and really grasp when I was like trying to fix stuff was like how trauma in a lot of ways, like, can make. Being super fearful of being super anxious and being super controlling or three things that don't feel good to yourself or to other people, regardless of where it's coming from.

And if it's real or it's not or whatever. And it's interesting, I've also been bingeing couples therapy, which I want you to watch as well. Okay. I need to add it to the roster done. I'm obsessed with Orna. I'm upset because you learn so much. I'll be so curious what your take is on her? What is it on Showtime?

Oh, I need

[00:33:15] Nina Endrst: to get apple TV or whatever. I'll get it. Like I'm fine. I'll

I'll

[00:33:18] Anna Toonk: buy the things or unlike, or maybe you can get, we'll talk about this later.

Yeah, should I, I just say my Showtime. So when everybody's heard exactly imagine it's, Showtime's like, um, excuse us.

I'm like, uh, well you can, um, work out a little ad deal here serves, but I love like, okay, like you'll be watching an episode and like, Someone will be, you know, yelling about their partner yelling, you know, and just like , and it's obvious that there's something up there's either trauma or there's history or there's something.

And I, or not has this masterful way of. Introducing the part they need to look at to then relate better to their partner. Like she has this massive, a way of sort of sifting everything out of like, this is what the cycle is. Like, you feel this way in the way she sort of will go into their past and like all this stuff and like watching her sort of blow people's mind.

And, and what I love though, is she's like, You have to decide what are, like, what are you really here for? Are you here to clean to your story about yourself and your person? Or are you here to heal your relationship? And like, I think that's a little bit the way that I approach some of this stuff of, like, it was really hard for me to like, kind of reckon with like how shitty I had been, you know, Uh, it was from pain.

It was from, it was in reaction to these things, but like, I had done a lot of poor behavior, you know, out of fear, like the amount of stuff I canceled last minute and like came up with some excuse, but didn't just, I mean, at the time I didn't even know I was anxious. I didn't know that's what was going on.

I would just be like, I don't know why, but I cannot go to that thing. Or.

[00:35:17] Nina Endrst: I only did that for work. I only call them work. I would go to the social thing, which I didn't need to do, but totally. It's you, you seem flaky.

[00:35:25] Anna Toonk: Yeah. And, and the people that I've let down, you know, that it's like no one, it didn't really.

The only price I really paid was like internally, as far as I'm concerned, you know, it didn't really end any friendships or whatever. I think at times it may be drove wedges, but like, it was hard for me to really reckon with that of like, I think sometimes what I get frustrated with is that I think people feel a certain amount of entitlement around fear and anxiety.

And they're entitled, like I'm anxious. So this has to be this way. So I'm not anxious. And it's like, okay, but what about everyone else? You know, like, yeah, sometimes

[00:36:11] Nina Endrst: I think correct me if I'm wrong. I mean, don't because I'm probably not, but, um, do you think part of what annoys you is that you maybe I'm projecting that you worked really.

Not to have that

[00:36:25] Anna Toonk: happen there. That there's definitely a bit of that for sure.

[00:36:30] Nina Endrst: Yeah. Oh, wow. It's literally coming for me. You guys, one time. Speaking of fear, I remember driving as a kid in the car with my dad and there's a thunderstorm and lightning literally had our car, like the side. And I was like, are we going to die?

And he's like, no. And I'm like, you don't know that I was like, I don't, he's like

[00:36:50] Anna Toonk: correct. Lightning struck a garbage can on the corner when I was in a cab. And it was so loud. I thought a bomb. I screamed, which I'm not, I'm not. Should I go inside? Am I? No. Cause you're fine. You're not, it'd be one you're I think safer inside than if you were outside.

Um, because you're grounded, there's nothing, you know, I don't see

[00:37:16] Nina Endrst: any lightning anyway. Well I do, but it's my way.

[00:37:19] Anna Toonk: Anyway, anyway, you're not metal. You'll find some of the things that I was

[00:37:23] Nina Endrst: looking up about how to fight your fears. So these are, I think things that we've all heard or many of us have that, you know, are some of them helpful.

Some of them can seem annoying. Breathing. Yeah. Everything is true though. I mean, breathing is the most true to me. Like it's so hard, but it's so freaking life changing. And so there's that taking time out. So taking, wow. A little break from whatever you're doing, even if you're like going to the next room, I feel like, like, And say you're with people to your point.

Like you can excuse yourself or not some, sometimes I think people who control or want to control everything so that they feel safe or whatever could really benefit from just take, just taking a time out, right? Like, yeah, go to the bathroom. Don't answer the texts right away. Like, do I think this bothers you and.

A little bit with people of like, we all have too. I mean, we understand and we're compassionate of course, but we all have to like do our own regulating because it's because it's really, really important, especially now when people have zero negative bandwidth, it's not like. We don't want to be good friends to each other, but it's important that we all take care of ourselves individually, as much as we can so that we're not constantly like rubbing our stuff on people.

So take a minute, right? Like take a breath. Maybe you are having to decide if you need to face that fear. Right. If you're like, okay, is this a fear? I hope that's lightning actually face or is it a fear that I I'm facing? If you're right now, you guys I'm literally outside in the store, but is it a fear I need to actually face?

Or is it something I need to excuse myself from? And, you know, come back to later, will that help to go? Right? Sometimes you need to get in the car. Otherwise it turns into. Like a lifestyle of being a shut-in

[00:39:47] Anna Toonk: I think that something you touched upon this self-soothing aspect that I think a lot of people don't want to develop self soothing techniques and like. The amount of people I know who really, really clean to that anxiety. I have anxiety I'm super anxious, you know? When I'm like, have you tried therapy?

Have you tried herbs? Have you tried? They're like, no. No. And I'm like, I just don't have a lot of patience for that. And I just, at this point in my life, I just, because I'm like in some way, then you want to, it works for you. Yeah. Stay there, you know, like it, this point, I think like anxiety is in the Zeit, Geist enough, we were aware of its existence enough that like there are resources and there are ones that don't cost anything, you know, like literally breathing like that is available to us.

And I'm not really trying to like criticize anybody. And I'm not meaning that people who don't want, I think to help themselves or something that. I just think. There's some times maybe like a selfishness in it that I just I'm like, when are we going to have that conversation in the, in the culture? You know, like sort of like boundaries and, you know, it's like, we talk a lot about setting them.

What about respecting them? We're not

[00:41:13] Nina Endrst: going to have these conversations and saying we have to have these conversations, but

[00:41:18] Anna Toonk: yeah. It's like, I'm waiting for that other piece of it. Something that's been interest. To me is like, I'm not a particularly fearful phobic person, you know, like, and, but as I've gotten older Heights Heights since.

A like, okay, this is some real talk and it's just between all of us. Okay. But real, and sometimes like, especially when people are hiking or it's like, it seems to be the worst when you could just literally fall off a mountain. Like that seems, I feel this like, like shock of fear that goes to my vagina.

It's the weirdest sensation. I have EV it's like a line cuts my body in half and goes down to the badge of fear. And I was in, and I've experienced that a little bit on Instagram. Like if I get sucked into watching reels and P you know, like when that you, you, it they'll get ya, you'll be like, oh, that looks interesting.

And when I was into all the cold stuff, cause I was terrified, the earth was melting. I was watching a lot of skiing stuff and all this stuff and certain ones I'd be like the, so I was watching a documentary about. This guy, who's a mountain climber. So I was watching this documentary. The Alpine is about this guy who did these like unreal climbs and with no ropes, you know, which I love.

I'm like watching it and I'm having this like very physical reaction and I'm like, it's like, really? I can't watch. Uh, documentary. Like, I can't like, that's how afraid I've come of like these Heights when you can like, literally die and like, write about in that moment in the video is like, it is horrifying watching mark climb, you know, like I was like,

[00:43:14] Nina Endrst: but feels like it's gonna fall out.

It was like, Oh

[00:43:18] Anna Toonk: crap. Like I feel seen, I was like, thank you. And he, like, he went down to like Patagonia and climbed this mountain by himself. Like, and when they were like, yo, we're making a doc about your, like, you couldn't tell us. And he's like, no, because the feeling I can't pee, like I climbed for me and I wouldn't get that feeling if you were there to film and they're like, cool, bro.

Also bad, you didn't die. And then he's like, come, come. And like two days later, climbed it again with them, with cameras in tow. I was just like, do you think those people just are like, they're made of something else? He had excessive, he had pretty bad ADHD and climbing's, he's like, is it only. It calms his mind, which that makes sense to me.

He's like, you cannot think about anything else. You literally have to think about where you're going to put your hands, where you're going to put your, you know, and I'm like, have you ever considered Ritalin? But then he also with his girlfriend just went in, like lived in a tent in the forest, in the middle of nowhere.

And I won't even fucking camp. Yeah. I mean the older I get, the more I'm like people. Camp, I don't, I'm like in, which is a shame that I've become like afraid of that, you know? Like there's nothing better than nature stories.

[00:44:36] Nina Endrst: Yeah. I don't need to sleep in it.

[00:44:37] Anna Toonk: Yeah. Yeah. And I don't, I'm not. Yeah. Like I dated a guy briefly who was super into camping and I was just like, this will never work.

You know, I was like, I long-term, I was even talking to

[00:44:49] Nina Endrst: somebody. Yoga today, w um, who was asking where Milo went to school and I was like my house. And then she said, she sends her kid to Montessori school and I she's like, oh, well, I don't know if she asked me why. I think she might've like, not in a weird way, but I was like, yeah, I'm just not really into, you know, the systems.

And I feel. Like, it's just the best choice for us right now. But my point is I w I was like, I also want my kid just like playing with dirt, you know? I mean, some of these schools, especially around here, you're like paying them an absurd amount of money. I'm not saying that that's all they do. So don't ask me about like Montessori or Waldorf.

I'm not saying they're bad, but I like, one of them doesn't teach kids to read until they're like eight. Like, I'm, I'm good on that. I don't need him to like, learn how to like, tend to. I mean, I'm not saying that that's not a useful skill for like, that's not like where our lives are headed. I don't think.

And I see these kids, like all like working on the farm, I'm like, oh fuck. What is the break? Like cough. Oh, you

[00:45:57] Anna Toonk: mean, you'd also be like, I don't really do things where like my hands get dirty. Yeah, no. Um,

[00:46:03] Nina Endrst: yeah, literally. Exactly.

[00:46:05] Anna Toonk: He's not a fan, which I love. No, he's

[00:46:07] Nina Endrst: not. He doesn't, he does not like to get his hands dirty.

So the, a couple of the other things I think might be useful as we wrap up is some of the little steps are that I hope will be, be real with how you feel picture the best case scenario, but you can also like dabble in the worst case scenario so that you can. Look at it. And then kind of, you know, like I said, that doctor used to say of essentially like work yourself up into a panic, not like for real, but face your fear and that way, like, if you want to visualize it, visualize it, if not in depth, maybe, but just to see it and then start to come down from it.

And then, then you can kind of, I think switch lanes into focusing on. Or you can just focus on the positive to begin with, or you could just only do things that, you know, calm you or help you to be at the beach or be in nature. Or I think it's really a secret sauce that all of us have to figure out for ourselves.

And that requires a lot of work, which I think people don't really want to do all the time. Yeah, but it, but it does its commitment and it changes, you know, you might need something one day that to, to kind of help you through. Then another day completely changes in some, the practice doesn't work and you have to sort of reorganize.

So that can be daunting. I know, but it's, it's something we all have to do for ourselves. I think.

[00:47:36] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I mean, from the Buddhist perspective, which I'm not, but because you're a Buddhist, I'm a Buddhist now, but I, what really, you know, like Buddhism really subscribed to fears the, is at the root of suffering and that most of our fear and anxiety is comes when we are resisting the impermanence of our existence.

And. Kind of yeah. Long pause. Yeah. I mean, I don't think life is suffering. However, I think people expecting life just to be happiness or life is always happiness. Yeah. Causes excessive suffering, you know, like, I don't think we're guaranteed anything in life. So I don't think life is suffering per se, but I think a lot of people are like, oh, like something bad happened.

And it's like, yeah, it's always possible. Like always a possibility, you know? Like, so I mean, it kind of like that, that I don't think life is suffering or, you know, but I think. There is a lot of avoidance of it's it is available, you know, like it's there.

[00:48:40] Nina Endrst: I think if we're talking about like heaven and hell, which we're not, but, um, if we're thinking in those terms, like, I'm pretty sure this would be the closest to hell.

Like if, if I don't think that there is a hell, I think like, this is how, and I don't want

[00:48:54] Anna Toonk: yeah. I think that's, you know, I think that's

[00:48:56] Nina Endrst: possible. I don't mean like that. It's the worst thing ever, but I, as I was driving today, Listen, hon. Okay. It's never been good. Like your parents' generation, their parents' generation, the one before that, like are there absolutely insanely beautiful parts of life?

Of course, but like, have humans been suffering since the beginning of time? 1000%. So to think that one of the things that. And that where anxiety creeps in and, you know, connects with fear and then overwhelms us is like the piece, especially for people who are AMPATH, it's not our job, nor can we solve all of the suffering.

We yet we can't fix it. So, so how do we take care of our little corners of the world? And then let that kind of have a domino effect. I think that really helps to, you know, take the power away from. Instead of feeding it all the time.

[00:49:57] Anna Toonk: Right. I would also say if you fear something that really helped me daily.

Oh, I got an email once that was like, worrying about people is like worrying, essentially. It was like worrying about people's essentially not trusting them. And. If you are an empath and you fall into some of that, like maybe caretaker, healer, any of that too. I had to become really vigilant about where, where was I calling it worry, but really it wasn't trust.

And where did I need to like relinquish control and be like, okay, I'm a little nervous. This person, but like that's, they're bridged across, you know, and, and really let people also live their own karma. You know, like I think sometimes our fear and anxiety can also just get really ramped up, like worrying about other people and it's like, let them worry about them.

You know? Like I had to really call a lot of that energy back because it wasn't letting me really get to the root. I was afraid of, you know, like I was busy worrying about everyone else or the world that I wasn't going like, well, what are you afraid of? You know? So I think that could be hopeful. And I agree with you of like, for sure, the worst case, the best case, you know, that sort of stuff could be helpful.

But I think I've mentioned it before and I'll mention it again, do a fear journal, you know, and I w.

[00:51:27] Nina Endrst: And maybe a gratitude one too, even though that's so annoying, but

[00:51:31] Anna Toonk: yeah, but it's, um, helpful to do, to make, you know, two columns what you're afraid of on the left and then challenge it on the right. And my therapist was like, I want you to get in the habit of this.

So it's out of your brain. So it's not influencing your thoughts and therefore your actions, you know, And that was super helpful for, for me as well, because it can be helpful. Like there's, there's nothing to feel. I think ashamed of, I think it's like the best thing you can do. I think about any fear is just to speak it in some way, whether it's to yourself, it's to someone else is writing it down.

The most powerful thing I think about dispelling any fear is just literally verbalizing it. And then I think it loses a lot of it. It's just like sometimes so often when I hear it, I'm like, well, when I hear it out loud, that sounds pretty silly, you know? Or like, what are the chances of that? And it just helps me walk it back.

So I agree a fan of that, you know, like I think we avoid it because we think it's like giving it power. Giving it energy or, or even like we're jinxing ourselves, but I've actually found it hugely beneficial. It makes me see it for what it is. Words, just words I don't like, you know, like it helps take its power away for,

[00:52:48] Nina Endrst: yeah.

I do voice note sometimes too. That help. That's helpful if you don't want to write it or, you know yeah. There's many different ways. The other thing I would say lastly, to kind of piggyback on what you were saying about not trusting people. It's also not love and not something that I think we'd been served, you know, really, especially through like the mom, child relationship that or any relationship really that, that fear or that, you know, and worry is love and it's, and it's not, and that's really hard.

You can love someone so much and of course worry about them, but the worry itself and the fear is not. So, how do you disconnect from that in or N you know, go back to

[00:53:37] Anna Toonk: the love. Well,

[00:53:40] Nina Endrst: good times. Thanks for joining me through the funder, the funder. We'll see you next time. Peeps. Bye

that's all for today.

[00:53:57] Anna Toonk: If you're interested in submitting a topic or want to submit a question for advice episode, please join our membership community@howtobehumanpod.com. Thanks for listening. And remember we're guides, not gurus.