Scott's from the day the Google news and I'm excited about today's topic because it's one that terrifies me and it probably terrifies you too, even if you don't realize it I'm joined with my new buddy, James Crane, James, thanks for being here. No, no problem at all. And James, I think like When you described what it is that you do, I immediately thought to myself, man, I wish somebody did that for me. for my listener who wasn't there during our prerecord, James is an e commerce consultant that choppers into e com businesses, tries to learn everything that he can about the business, top to bottom, left to right, goes as deep as he can, and then works towards optimizing whatever the business needs. And so that could be visibility or CRO or backend or, wherever he sees The chance for improvement. How did I do there? Is that the way you describe it? Yeah, pretty much. Improving product offering, working out where the gaps are, trying to fix problems, really. So just kind of choppers into the specialist works really close with e commerce brands. Currently accepting new clients. Yeah, definitely. So if you're an econ brand and you sound like you want somebody who, does what James does reach out to him, I'll include his contact info in the description of this video, James shot me an email he just had an idea for a video and I was like, dude, that's brilliant. Let's do it together. And the idea I'll try to put it in a nutshell, James, and then I'll ask you to expand upon it, but it's basically, what do we come business owners? In order to contend with the feast or famine that is specifically paid traffic, but just digital marketing in general, because if you've been running e com campaigns for 48 hours, you know that there are these insane peaks and valleys, and they're inexplicable. it feels like when you're in a valley, it feels like you're doing something horribly wrong. And when you're at a peak, it feels like you're a genius. And neither is true, by the way, like both of those things are incorrect. How did I do defining the problem there? pretty bang on. I mean, we all dream of that level playing field where you take your entire year's revenue and divide it into 365 days. So, you know, what's coming in every day of the week. But the reality is that's not the case. And you can really go from those highs, like you say, to those lows. And there's a big temptation to make some dangerous decisions when those lows hit. it's hard to, to mitigate those really, I guess. So a question that maybe is a little more marketing philosophy or even conspiracy theory before we get into the specifics. why do you think that happens? Is it algorithmic? Is it market? Is it a combination of both? I think it's a combination of both. I think even sometimes it can be seasonality that you don't intrinsically understand that is part of your marketplace. And again, that's more dangerous for the newcomer. Because like obvious things like seasonality can be you sell snowshoes and it's the first day of summer. Your sales are probably going to tank and it's pretty obvious why, right? But Say for instance, you sell takeaway packaging and you don't realize it, but a big portion of your customer base might be selling to schools. If there's some holiday starts, your sales are going to decline. You may not necessarily know why, or it might just be the weather. And those sort of things do happen behind the scenes. And I feel that's probably a big part of it. Obviously, you've got general market trends, such as a financial crisis, so on and so forth, energy prices that people worry about, and that might cause a general depression. But the big swings, I think, generally tend to be, in my opinion, at least, behind the scenes are seasonality driven and elements to the marketplace you might not immediately understand or know why they happen down the chain. Can I tell you two stories? Go for story number one, we had a client that sold among other things, but one of their core product offerings was a special type of industrial cleaner that was meant to, that was meant to clean a very specific types of metal. And the, the implementation of which was mostly for like machining shops. In this story, it gets so interesting because we ran into this, they had this huge sales decline, couldn't figure out how or why. And It wasn't even us that, cracked the code. They, they had a third party consultant that came in to help them clean up their emails. And the person came in to clean up their emails, they had a huge email database and they hadn't cleaned it in forever. And so they were just trying to like figure out how to solve the problem across all levels of analysis. And this email guru Asked what's the deal with great clips. And they're like, what do you mean? and she was like, you have a ton of people from great clips in your email database. and they ended up tracking all the way back that great clips is a massive franchise, by the way, it's like 42, 000 franchise owners or something. At one point in one of the great clip member forums, somebody said, in order to clean your clippers, we found that this solution works really, really, really well. they, somebody mentioned this industrial cleaner that's meant for machining shops, but also apparently. cleans clippers. that one mentioned got added to the great clips SOP as far as like the products that they were buying. And all these haircut, 42, 000, not all 42, 000, but a ton of them were buying this stuff. when COVID landed all the, haircut places closed. And so they stopped buying everything, including the solution. But what I thought was so interesting. is they had no idea for, ostensibly years that a bunch of hair salons were buying their product because they never asked. They never asked. They never checked. They were as shocked as everybody else was. And if you're watching this, don't assume, you know, who your customers don't assume, you know, who it is that's on the receiving end, because Unless you ask, you're never really going to have the full view. And that's all they needed to do was just ask. And that's so easy. It's post purchase survey follow up email NPS scoring. But I just thought that that was like the best, most poignant example I've ever heard of, Oh, you have no idea who your customer is. It's amazing. And it is often those small things that you find out from like, like the email trail that you suddenly go, This is why that happened. Yeah. Which is funny. Cause I didn't, I mean I've got 16, 000 people on my email database. Which is funny. we just wiped it clean and we got. we started over and, I haven't looked at that or segmented it. I'm such a massive hypocrite, but weird story. Number two on the same topic that you offered me and my business partner, John, talk about this all the time. At solutions eight, when we're doing lead generation, now that's not e commerce. But I'd be interested in your opinions on this because I think that the two play together. We run lead gen campaigns for ourselves and what we've noticed, and this has happened for years is all of a sudden I'll get like. a pet supplement company, and then I'll get another one. So I'll get two pet supplement companies back to back, and then I'll get like travel broker, and then I'll get another one. and there's this weird theme where when I get a lead from a specific industry or vertical, I'm almost guaranteed to get another lead from that vertical. People talk. Is that it? So, man, gosh, because we go back and forth, like, I keep thinking, is Google trying to match based off of such specific demographic and psychographic profiling factors that when it sees a conversion from somebody that matches an avatar, it's just that much more likely to give me that same avatar? And if that's the case, maybe that carries over into the Feaster family we see with Ecom. Yeah, yeah, you're probably right, and it's a bit of both. I mean, I know from embedding myself into certain industries, You know, a lot of people in those industries after a few years and you then have relationships and find out who's using this for that and who's getting their stuff from where, and that dialogue can be quite casual. Even competitors will have relationships with each other. So if they don't see that company is a massive threat to them, they're maybe in a different town or a different city where they're not on each other's, like turning on each other's toes, it's possibly could just be word of mouth. You struggle to find that out. The risks of the feast or famine. So first bullet point I have for me, you hear is how this can be really dangerous for newcomers because you induce panic, you make horrible rash decisions. So talk to specifically our newbies prep them, like let's coach them on, Hey, here's what to expect. And this is why it's fine. going from experience here when I first started out, you'd be having, sales start to climb gradually, you notice these trends, you're selling, I don't know, 10 items a day. It's great. You're all happy. And then all of a sudden it stops and you have a day where the phone doesn't ring. There's no sales going out the door and you kind of like, what did I do wrong? Now there's plenty of things you can do. Even further wrong at that point, such as immediately making changes to your pricing, just going wild and assuming it's something along those lines that say suddenly need to have like an offer that's going to attract more people in or something or even changing website teams. I've seen people do that. they get a decline and they're like, I just need to rebrand my site. It, it must be something to do with that without really even researching into it, which is completely crazy. But, there's lots of things you can do which really can protect you from making any crazy decisions and one of those things is When you first set your site up, I guess, get an idea, get Google analytics installed for one even just to use it as a benchmark of how many users you're getting a day so that you look on the real time view and when I go on here around lunchtime, there's usually 200 people browsing or a hundred people browsing, whatever that number is, you can get a benchmark of what's going on. And again, there's. Plenty of other places you can create these benchmarks, your Merchant Center account, if you have one your AdWords account, if you're running ads you can use Lighthouse, you can use Clarity so Lighthouse I mentioned because you may want to benchmark your page speed before you even have a problem, just to get an idea of how your pages behave and what an acceptable load time is, getting an idea of how your, Normal behavior of your website is even right at the start is a good point to be at because then when things do go wrong, you kind of got a checklist that you can run through to say, do things look healthy? Do things look like they normally look when things are good? Cause that's a good indicator that you are not the problem. And more so it could be an external factor like seasonality, et cetera. You hit on quite a few things there that I want to revisit. But there's an overarching theme that I think is brilliant when you're attempting to diagnose the first of all, you have a problem, try to diagnose it. Don't react right prescription without diagnosis. Yeah, I'll practice because I've seen like kind of view the situation. Yeah, I've seen people do that to change the website changes the offer change the name. tell this story all the time. It's obnoxious, but we were running an email. Marketing campaign and the email was performing poorly. And so I was tweaking the body of the email. And when we dug into it, it was the subject line that was performing poorly because nobody was opening the damn email. So I'm tweaking a body that's not even being read. But that's not, if you go to the thing that you think you're good at or that you think you can fix. So if you run into this problem the way to diagnose the problem is to look at what, what's the lead indicator, which is, I love that you mentioned the Google analytics thing because if my sales drops today, the first question is, well, did my traffic drop today? Exactly. Because if my traffic did not drop today, now I know. There's potentially a problem on site. But if my traffic dropped, now I know, alright, let's go look at, now is that organic traffic? Paid traffic? Referral traffic? Email traffic? Yeah. But it gives you the ability to begin to figure out what is it that's going on. Pitching, holing, and separating out what those potential Aggravating factors might be where that problem may exist. So obviously if you find that it's your traffic is still the same, then yeah, you need to start looking at does your checkout work? Does your add to cart button work? Can you go through the checkout on a different browser to your normal browser? Checkout as a guest, checkout on a different remote like internet provider? I've seen all sorts of weird things in the past where... Even ISPs have had an issue and all of a sudden some of your website doesn't work because you're relying on a third party piece of code that's maybe just not being passed through the network properly, I guess. But It's surprising how many people don't check out their actual site functionality when they have a problem and they don't realize that it's their site that's at fault. I know when you guys do your onboarding, right? You make sure that people's checkouts work. Because. People often have issues. I mean, really, really, I'm almost ashamed to admit this, but when I was lot more inexperienced I had a site that was running for about three years with a broken checkout and I had no idea because at no point did I think, I'll check out as a guest and then go and try and change my address, which happens quite frequently. People get offered through a checkout and decide, do you know what? I need to deliver it to my neighbor because I'm not going to be in maybe. And when you do that, it choked out the checkout and wouldn't let you back in. And. It was infuriating and it's like I had no idea that that problem even existed. And when I found it, I kicked myself because I saw about a 30 percent increase in sales straight away afterwards when I sorted it out. So there are silly things like that that you really do need to test and you need to be kind of testing that anyway as a matter of best practice. I think making sure that your website actually functions properly. And like I say, making sure you can check out as a guest think this is more important for websites that are self hosted, not so much Shopify where it's kind of harder to break things that substantial. although Shopify can break, I mean, you can break it if you try real, real hard, especially for me. You can break anything if you try hard enough. Yeah. I have proven that theory. My wife she wrote a book it's called Postpartum Me, go buy my wife's book. She wrote a book and she wanted to get speaking gigs. And so we sent out like press releases and, we had some kind of put some fire behind it. And she wasn't getting any responses. And it was a couple of months into it. She went to her website and there's a contact us form. And she tried to fill out the form on the website and it just didn't work, period. And the minute we fixed the form, same story. She starts getting a ton of like, inquiries for podcast speaking stage, whatever. And it was devastating because. That's after all the marketing stopped. It's like, what did we miss out on for that time where the form wasn't even working? I just wrote a Twitter thread about this. Go hire somebody on Fiverr. Say, I'm gonna pay you whatever, a month. 20 bucks a month or something. It's the best 20 a month anybody will ever spend. What would even be even better is... Because there's a bunch of people on Fiverr that will check your website for you and they check, you know, all links, all conversion opportunities, all browsers, all devices or a myriad of them. Cause I don't think there's a way to truly check all of them. And what I would do is I'd offer them a bounty. I'd be like, Hey man, for every. Mistake you catch that's actually a significant mistake. I'll give you a buck or I'll give you 10 bucks or whatever it is properly incentivized to go do it, but they'll record themselves on loom, walking through your website, checking it. Because things break all the time. we added a chat widget recently to a website and there was just a conflict of code for an external chat widget. I think it broke an option set on one of those sites and you couldn't select options and not every product has options. So it's kind of like, We just caught it by chance. And we're like, Hey, hang on a minute, we can't do this certain function on the website. And it was a critical function. So it is really important. think an important takeaway is you're never above that. You need to make sure that no matter how big your website is, you, you need to be checking these things are working. Cause it can creep in. It only takes a developer to drop a slight theme change that pushes an important button off the side of the page somewhere by accident. It happens. I love that. You're never above that. your next note, how to keep a cool head and what to do during the famine period, you've got, I don't want to say an SOP, but you have some advice to people as to, what to do, steps and processes, et cetera. Yeah. we've touched on quite a bit of it already, I guess. first thing, have you made any changes to your website recently? There's like the first thing checking your site actually functions. So we've covered making sure your cart works, your checkout works, you can register as a guest, you can register. So on and so forth, multiple devices that you can use, is it displaying properly? Once you've kind of worked through that and you've worked out that it's not the functionality of your site, then like you say, if your traffic's good, you need to start looking at potentially your offering. what we will tend to do is we'll go and do what we call a visibility check. we will go on to Google, we will go and see if our. Product placement is good for Google shopping ads, for instance, if it's e commerce, the search ads are there, that your normal organic rankings are there. So if you're using a tool like SEMrush if you've set that up previously to your outage you should have an idea of where some of your best performing keywords sit normally. And you can go and look at those and go and say, right, I used to be position three for my best selling product. Has that now gone? is that disappeared? Once you've kind of said, right, I'm definitely there still, is your offering good? Is your pricing right? Is there a new competitor that's kind of beating you to the punch on their pricing so that you're getting some of the clicks and you're seeing the traffic maybe, but because people kind of, I don't know if I'm the only person who does this. I feel like a lot of people do. I've definitely got a friend who has way too many tabs open all the time. I go down the line. I'm like, open, open, open, open, open. Exactly. So you get all the visitors. But if someone's price is cheaper, you just see that as a bounce, right? And you've got to make sure you're offering offerings competitive. Now, your offering can be competitive in a number of ways, right? It can be, delivery speed might be the way your offering is better. It might not always be priced. So that's worth considering. But if someone's significantly cheaper than you, that's always like a really painful factor and that's something that you might find and think, okay, this is my best selling product. I'm normally selling a hundred of these a day. It's stopped. Is this new competitor that's just popped up is now occupying the top product shopping bar, and I'm focusing on shopping cause it's an easiest one to use as sort of an example of this. are they poaching your customers? You're still getting the traffic, but you're not getting the transactions. And that might be a factor. And that can be a factor if your traffic's dropped as you might see less traffic because this people aren't even getting to your website, maybe. If that's not the case, then you kind of need to start looking into your merchant center, make sure that your feed is, you're getting a click through rates, you're getting all those sort of things that you need to see when, that indicate your site is healthy at that point. go through, we'll make sure that you're visible, your offering is good. If that's all good, you can kind of start to breathe a bit easier because you kind of then know It's just a trend in the market and it doesn't necessarily mean it's always, a trend in the market, but you've got a good indication that it's not you. if your pricing is good, visible. Why wouldn't people be buying from you like they normally are? I mean, there are other factors you can find when you're in that process. Like your ads aren't there. Has your card been declined? iT happens. especially with the, like, obviously Google changes sometimes hard to predict what your spend is going to be, right? depending on how your account's set up and I've seen multiple accounts where they're like, Oh, our ads aren't working. I don't know why. And it's. There's a card declined email in some admin inbox somewhere that they don't know about. but yeah, I mean, that's, once you've done all that, there are other things you can do. And we talked about having friends in the marketplace and how you can kind of get an idea of who's. Who else is in the marketplace that you deal with on a daily basis. So your suppliers, et cetera. what an interesting, you go ask them, you're like, Hey, casually. Yeah. How are things going? Like, you busy? What's going on in a casual way? Don't, don't obviously pick up the phone and go, Hey. Our sales have stopped. Please help. Oh, I do that now. I'll call my agency buddies and be like, dude, I am bleeding right now. Like what is the, what is going on? And it's always interesting because, I've got some friends that I'm close enough to where they're like, Oh no, me too. And that's when I'm like, thank God, But the minute, they're like, Oh man, we're just crushing life. That's when I know, okay, I suck at something and I need to go figure it out. Something's wrong. Yeah. Well, now it's just time to diagnose what it is. But I think Biggest thing that I take away from the situation. Once all you've gone down that list of panic and what's going on and try and diagnose everything you can and you've, get to the bottom of the part and you're like, okay, I've given myself a small checklist of jobs because I found out that there is a new supplier that's got a better image than I've got to Mm-Hmm. Drag people in or a better headline on their ads, or they've got a better page title on my bestselling product. So I need to make some changes or I've, I've lost an ad rank. Search into position. maybe I need to go revisit some of my page content and get that bumped up. But once you've gone through that, you've got like a nice window where you can kind of go, right. I don't need to panic so much. I don't need to make any knee jerk reactions, which is a fatal mistake in my opinion. You can then adjust those few things that you've actually taken a measured approach Take some time to actually get on with your normal job. It's a terrible, terrible thing when, and I don't know if I'm terrible. I'm saying this is a bad thing to do and don't do it, but I do it myself. You can find yourself just staring analytics and trying to wish sales into the inbox and you're like, come on, I need another inquiry. I need another order. Come on, we need to do this. You're not going to, you're not going to change anything by just staring at your inbox. You might as better off using that time to be productive and just get on with what you were planning on doing that day before the phone stopped ringing. Yeah, I had a business partner who was maybe the best salesperson I've ever known in my entire life, and he always used to say we don't control our results, we control our activity. And that always used to frustrate me because I was like, well, I want results. I don't want activity. and you know, he was a hardcore sales guy. So his whole thing was like, how many calls have you made? Cause if you haven't made a hundred calls, you're not going to make a sale. And if you make a hundred calls at clockwork, you're going to make the sale. And I feel like the same thing is true for econ, maybe not. Why it is connected, but it's how much content you're creating. How many links have you built? How many strategic partnerships have you built? How many booths have you done? How many videos have you shot? How much are you doing on social? And you'll figure out what the equivalent of your a hundred calls is. And now, you know, I've made my a hundred calls and if things are down, you sort of know what levers to go pull on. Yeah, yeah, definitely. That's a, that's a good takeaway. I mean, I was going to ask actually I guess you must get this. How do you deal with clients when they suddenly come to you and go, Hey, the phones have stopped ringing. is there like a internal strategy that you guys have to like mitigate a customer who's in full on meltdown mode? Yeah, so here's my advice to agencies. Number one, I'm so afraid of saying this because I know this is going to be thrown back at me. We should be first one saying it. So we do it depending on the client spend. if they're not spending a ton, well, the longest period of time that will go without looking at a count of three days. So if you're spending, you know, five grand a month, it's probably a three day check in because there's just nothing you can do between. Yeah, you have to have time to build it, right? Right. So every three days we're going to jump in and if we notice a downtrend, especially if it's distinct, what I want my team to do is just reach out and just be like, Hey James, just so you know, I saw a drop, probably not a big deal, but I'm going to keep an eye on it. And that, if you're an agency or an agency owner or a client manager, that alone is the thing that will build trust and maintain trust with the client for a millennia. And what sucks for most agencies is most of them are doing the work. But they're not communicating that they're doing the work. So they actually are going in and they're going, Oh, you know what? That's a drop. That's interesting. It's probably just trend or whatever. I'll come back and I'll look at it in three days. But then the client sees it the next day. They're like, Oh, dear God, what's happening? And now next words that you say are the most frustrating words. I know saw it yesterday. It's not a big deal. either if you know, and you saw it yesterday, you tell me like, I'm now I'm mad. Or I think you're lying and you're trying Pacify me because anybody who sees that downtrend is they're irate at that point. for agencies, number one, get out ahead of it and be the one that brings up the problems. So many, especially younger agency owners, they think that if they can hide from the problems, that's not your job. Your job is to bring the problem and then sit and watch it with the client. And you're like, Hey, we're going to have to take care of this together. And that's all the client wants from you. They're not going to blame you for the problem. If you can make a reasonable case you know, as long as you didn't cause it. So that's number one. Number two is anytime a client comes to you and says, Oh, you know, things are down, everything's horrible, the world's on fire. My initial reaction used to be like. Calm down, which is the wrong word. the real key I think to life is complete and total empathy. this looks really bad. I agree. Look at what they're looking at and respond to what they're looking at. The way that you would respond to it as though it was yours. So they'd be like, my sales are in half. And you look at that and you're like, Oh yeah, I see that. You're absolutely right. and man, if my sales got cut in half, I'd be freaking out. Let's dig in this together. And then. Hey, you know what? I think we should actually stay calm. We don't want to make any big rash changes. Let's go figure out why this is, but trying to jump to logic right out of the gate, I think is a flawed model. I think it's empathy first. I agree. If I were you, and then you get to, now it's not you and I across the table from each other. I cross over to your side. We lock arms together. We're buddies and we're like going to go tackle this. And I realized that feels a little touchy feely but I just think it's so, so important to stop and to, put yourself in the other person's shoes and realize, man, this for me is a job. I'm managing one account. I've got 30 accounts on my slate and I've got another call in 29 minutes for this person. This is their livelihood. Let me just stop for a minute and say like, you know what? This would freak me out too. and I'm going to get to the bottom of it and then do that. You know, that's the other thing is actually do the damn job. That was such a departure, dude. I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to get on like a weird soapbox soliloquy, forgive me. No, David, don't worry at all. I think I go off on tangents all the time. So I'm the worst person for that. I had an idea when you were talking about all the things that could go wrong to kill your conversions. One of them that's come up for us often is people starting to bid on your brand traffic or, not just your, brand name, but the names of your products and you don't realize it. And so you're doing all this amazing awareness building and then I sneak it, which is something I do by the way. Like I'm not telling you it's a bad thing. I actually think it's a great strategy. Who doesn't? Yeah, who doesn't? That's exactly right. If you're not doing it, you're flawed. Yeah. But somebody's sneaking in and scooping out your bottom of the funnel traffic and you don't even realize that they're doing it. So that's the sort of thing you'd pick up. Again, doing a visibility check, looking at Google, your front page of Google and making sure you do that as well. Not in like your browser just so you're not getting served the personalized results. Well, if you want to be real sneaky, if you're bidding on somebody else's brand, go figure out where their corporate office is and exclude their corporate, exclude that geography from your campaign. And that way, if they're being lazy about the way they check, they'll never know. that's mean. Yeah, straight up evil. I don't know who would do such a thing. That's fantastic. that's one of those things you would identify. Well, I'd like to think you'd identify and just being familiar with your AdWords account would pick that up, right? For most people. But yeah, Google is going to show you auction insights. It'll show you who's bidding on it. But if you're not bidding on name, you don't get that data. have another, this is not as relevant, but you mentioned if somebody comes in and, price matches your product or they have a better image. This came from a friend of mine who sold memory cards. He sold more money in memory cards. For two or three years than anybody else in the world. He was like the primary, the number one memory card guy. He was the biggest buyer from like the whatever plant in China makes the memory cards. The thing about memory cards is a memory card is a memory card, right? Like the value proposition is very, very, very slim. You're going to have a hard time convincing me like my plastic is actually more durable. And so the thing that he did that I thought was absolutely brilliant is he would put random ad hoc stuff on the memory cards, like recipes. now it's like, okay, I need a 32 gig memory card and I have two and they're the exact same price, but this one has, you know, like every Martha Stewart recipe ever made or whatever. And and so. As weird a departure as that is, one thing that I think e comm store owners should do is supplement with digital products. if you're selling a barbecue grill, and I'm comparing your grill to 15 other grills, and they're all basically the same price, but you've got a four hour master class from the guy that just won, barbecue off. 2023, which would cost you nothing, right? Like it would cost you to be like, you call up that guy who's a local celebrity, but it's not like he's a billion dollars. And you're like, Hey, man, if I pay you a grand, can you just record a video using whatever product this is? And or I'll send you a free barbecue grill or whatever. And now when I'm comparing barbecue grills. It's like, Oh dude, I get that. And I get the masterclass. I think you did that for mechanical pencils. I think you do that for cell phone, just give them a tutorial, a how to or whatever. And now that bundle becomes a category of one and you're no longer competing only on price. it's enhancing your offering, really, really enhancing your offering in a way that would be difficult for a lot of people to match as well. Well, and dude, the cost of delivery is absolute zero and it's a little bit of relationship building and you just gotta edify and credentialize the person that you're using. 'cause you know there's some brand building there too. So many influencers would do that for free just because now they're gonna get the brand awareness. what aren't we talking about on this topic? What haven't we hit that we need to hit? Did I skip any of your notes or categories? I think we've covered pretty much well. Everything that I hadn't noted down really. We've covered like the seasonality thing, what to do, what not to do. I think we pretty much well gone through it. If somebody is starting. Fresh, given your pedigree in the e comm world. And even this topic aside, just, you're going to talk to some young bucks out there. And if you wanted to encourage them along their journey, what would you say to them right now? Like, what are the things that either you wish somebody had told you or you see young founders needing to hear? I think don't don't overthink things. Don't put things off don't try and overly plan things. Get on with things because sometimes if you spend too much time deliberating on something and the best way to attack it, it's better to just try it and test it and see if it works and if it doesn't. Go at it again. I see a lot of people and go to this myself again of deliberating on something for weeks and never actually finishing it where I could have just got on and just gone this will do for now. Let's see how that flies. And I'm, that might fly contrary to a lot of other people's beliefs. But getting something 80 percent of the way there and testing it is a lot better than getting it a hundred percent of the way there. And. Never doing it because you didn't get it. The hundred percent that last final 20 percent can often be a very big stretch to achieve. Yeah, I think that's such phenomenal advice. I'm actually ashamed of what I'm destroying. I'm about to share. I was with the business mentor he and I were at a little mini conference type thing. It was like 50 people in a room basically. And you see presenters going up and a gentleman that came up and, was very successful in a space that was in at the time. And later I told my mentor, I was like, dude, that pizza guy, I'm so much smarter than that guy. what obnoxious words to say, right? Like what a douchebag I am. But I was like, I'm so much smarter than that guy. And my mentor looks at me and he goes, yeah, but he does it. there was so much truth because I would sit there and I would tinker and I would hone and I'd craft and when I would think in it, but I'd never launch, I'd never publish, I'd never push. I'd never try. it needed to be 100%. And the guy in question who I actually still know. Man, he just throws massive amounts of spaghetti at the wall. And he does these launches and these challenges and these webinars that are always half assed, half baked, half cooked. They piss me off. Like, typos and Zoom links that don't work. and I'm not telling you to go this far, but it is an amazing case study. There's definitely a balance. Yes. Yes. You need to be past the 50 percent mark. You need to be able to get on the Zoom, but this dude just, he doesn't care. And then he figures out what works. And then once it works, he actually has people around him along the periphery, and I need to stop describing him because people are going to figure out who he is, who will then come in and like hone it and make it good. And then they mint money. man, just get started. There's no reason not to this James. This is so good. Last words to you. Any, anything else that we need to say? Thanks for having me on here. It's been great to talk to the guy that I usually watch TV on YouTube. Well, I appreciate you coming on. If you're watching this and you need help with the econ, reach out to our buddy, James. I'm not an affiliate. I just like him. I think he has a lot of good stuff to say. And sometimes it's nice to just have that support. I've never not benefited from coaching or consulting. As long as you're smart about the coach that you hire, I think that can be a really, really powerful boon. Other than that, like, comment, subscribe. I shoot a video every day. I hope I'll see you tomorrow.