This is Transit Unplugged.

I'm Paul Comfort, good to be with you on another edition of the

world's leading transit executive podcast, Transit Unplugged.

Heard now in over a hundred countries around the world.

On today's episode, our guest is Justin Stuehrenburg, who is General

Manager of the Madison Metro Transit System in Madison, Wisconsin, the

capital of the state of Wisconsin.

This is a large and growing system with about 200 fixed route buses, and they

are coming back strong after the pandemic with ridership now up to 90 percent

of the levels it was back in 2019.

And today, Justin takes us on a deep dive into, the reasons behind

their complete bus network redesign and the impact of it that's been

underway for about nine months.

We talk about their new 200 million bus rapid transit program and how they're

implementing it, how they're doing electric buses with overhead wires to

charge them at the end of the lines and all kinds of interesting in depth.

Plus a look at a degree he got that I was fascinated by, his master's degree,

and how that's helped prepare him.

for the job he has today.

All that on this episode of Transit Unplugged.

Now join us in conversation with Justin Stuehrenburg All

Justin, great to have you with us today on the Transit Unplugged podcast.

great to be here.

Appreciate it.

Yeah,

yeah, absolutely.

Thanks for, sharing with me some of the great stories today.

I think we're going to have some great stories about how your system is really

coming back strong and proactively planning for the growth of your city.

I think that's a great position to be in, man.

Yeah, we're really excited to move transit forward here

in Madison and, we've got a lot of, a lot of things working in our favor.

Absolutely.

So Madison, Wisconsin, tell us a little bit about your city

and, and your operation there.

Sure.

so we are, we're actually a city department.

We're not a regional transit authority.

So we're operating under the umbrella of the City of Madison,

but we operate regional service.

We are the regional service provider in, in the entire region.

So we have, contracts with, all of our surrounding cities as well as

the University of Wisconsin and other private entities to provide service.

So.

Madison is a unique place, headquarters, of some major, companies like Epic

Systems, as well as the state capitol and the home for University of Wisconsin.

we're also, sandwiched between two lakes, and so we are, built on an

isthmus, which really, constraints our geography, but really makes

it a very beautiful place to be.

and so, and a lot of that, works to our advantage from a transit perspective.

So, we, famously have no, highways going through the core of our city.

and so That's unusual.

Yeah.

but so it, it, it's a really very good market for transit.

and it shows up in our ridership.

So we're actually, one of the highest ridership per capita,

agencies in the country.

I believe we're top 5%, in the country in terms of ridership per capita.

So

that's great.

So tell us about, the services that you operate, the types of services, et cetera.

Sure.

right now we, are all, local bus and paratransit.

we, and we directly operate, the fixed route service, and

contract our paratransit.

we are under construction right now for our first bus rapid transit

line, and that will be coming online later this year, fall of 2024.

it's a high quality BRT project with, About 70 percent dedicated lanes.

It's about a 200 million project, that I think will really take us, the next

step, in terms of providing really quality service through the city.

So you've got a hundred and, almost 200 buses, right?

240 foot buses.

your ridership is coming back strong from your kind of pre pandemic levels, right?

Uh, yeah, and so actually we just

got our February ridership.

We were over a million rides for February, again, for the first

time since COVID, and so we are now at about 90 percent ridership

recovery, since before the pandemic.

And a little bit more about the place of Madison, being that it's a

state capital, et cetera, but also, I find it interesting that, your population is

growing, but it's not growing out into the suburbs as much as a lot of other, cities

might be, maybe because of geography that you mentioned, but instead, the

downtown area is growing, where people, you know, live within the city limits,

the, you're at 400, 000, which is a pretty big, these days, for a downtown area.

yeah, you're exactly right.

We, the city has really prioritized growing up, not out, there

certainly is some outward growth in some of our suburban neighbors,

but they are also focusing on trying to densify and infill too.

So, it, it's really a, a strong market for transit service.

you know, we're not, Trying to chase new developments out into

the cornfields we're really able to leverage our existing service to

serve new developments coming in.

that's been, I think, a huge benefit for us.

And I think, we are 1 of the fastest growing regions

kind of outside the sunbelt.

but again, what makes us different than, you know, Des Moines, for

example, who is also growing pretty dramatically is that our birth is

happening in the downtown core.

Yeah.

and, and that, that again makes a

very strong case for transit.

So you've got, in kind of being proactive in planning

for the future, you've got a bunch of major projects coming up.

You mentioned the BRT, we're gonna talk about your complete bus network

design in just a minute, your new facilities, new technology.

Justin, I got a question for you.

Where are you getting all the funds for this?

Well, we've been very fortunate to have a strong partnership

with the FTA and been successful in a lot of our grant opportunities.

And we've got very strong support locally.

we've got a lot of support locally.

being very high, it's, it's very, it's a high priority for our city government,

and for our surrounding cities, and so they've been, willing to contribute

funds, to make these projects happen, but again, you know, usually only 20

percent because we've been able to, to successfully create projects that

are very appealing, to federal funding opportunities and, and meet a lot

of the scoring criteria very well.

And how are you funded, for operating dollars, not capital?

Is it, do you have a dedicated tax?

Is it just an annual allocation from the City Council, or?

Yeah, so it, and that's another part that is challenging.

you know, again, we are, a city government with no dedicated

tax, operating regional service.

And so, right now, it is just a direct appropriation from each

individual partner city, to fund our budget, and that, is what we do.

Can fluctuate from year to year and, and there really is

no dedicated pool for growing.

and so that makes it very difficult, especially in a growing region.

we really have to manage those relationships and those forecasts and,

try to be creative in the way that we are growing, so that we can continue to, to

put each city in a position for success.

ultimately that means that, I.

Report to six different city councils, which, is sometimes challenging,

often challenging, but, you know, it's, it's the, the hand we've been

dealt here and we're trying to, to be successful and to move forward.

And, operationally, who do you report to?

day to day,

the city of Madison mayor, and then we have

a transportation, commission that

kind of

handles the, the function of the city council.

All right.

So let's jump into your projects you've got coming up.

first off, you know, back in 2017, when I was in Baltimore, I left just

before the implementation of it, but we did a total bus network redesign based

on Tom Lambert's Houston Model, where basically we analyzed where people wanted

to go today, because in 2017, it was different than it was 50 years before,

and unfortunately, our route system was laid out 50 years before, like a lot

of cities were, you know, they kind of follow the old streetcars, where two

thirds of the route went to the central business district, and that wasn't, that

wasn't The need of passengers anymore and no one had ever kind of ripped the

band aid off and said, okay, we gotta, we gotta totally rehab this thing and

take people where they want to go today.

Is that kind of what you did post COVID?

You decided, look, this, we have new travel patterns, hybrid work schedules,

three day city, all that stuff.

Yeah.

So, we implemented our redesign last summer, summer of 23.

and there was really, there was a need for it even before Covid.

yes.

we had actually, it, it had been kinda on the books,

from a planning standpoint, before that.

but.

COVID is what really allowed us to move it forward, more quickly.

Madison was a little bit different than I think most, most cities in

terms of, we had actually done a major service redesign in the mid 90s.

Okay.

and so we weren't kind of dealing with.

That is different.

The true legacy, you know, right?

The streetcar lines just turned into bus routes and that's

the way it's always been.

we, in the 90s, implemented, like a transfer point system.

So, basically there were four transfer points were created in what was at the

time roughly the periphery of the city.

and there were routes that went between the transfer points and then

there were routes that kind of did one way loops through neighborhoods away

from the transit point or transfer points to create that connectivity.

That, was starting to falter, for two major reasons.

One is our city was growing so much that you know, at the time they were built,

they were nearly at the periphery, well, since then, a huge amount of city has

been developed outside of them, which basically means that everyone outside

of them had to go through unnecessary transfers and out of direction travel

to get to where they wanted to be.

we actually found that people at the periphery of the city had

transferred at three times the rate.

of people elsewhere in the city, and it just so happens that in Madison, much of

our low income community and people of color, have been pushed to the outskirts

of the city, and so they were being disproportionately impacted by that system

. and then the other, element was, by having transfer points at both ends of the, kind

of, downtown bisecting routes, we, we had time transfers at both ends of routes.

which operationally we just couldn't sustain, as, you know, the city got,

grew up and traffic got worse, you know, those routes were more and more delayed,

and, ultimately what was designed to have a bus arrive every 30 minutes and

everyone make a transfer and, and go along their way, meant that buses were

often 6 or 7 minutes late and, and then everyone missed their transfer and were

sitting around for 30 minutes and stuff.

That's no good.

Yeah.

so those, those two things were what really drove, the change

and then COVID was just, was the opportunity to get it done.

So what's the new design?

so it's a bit more, so I know Houston and most cities have

tried to go more towards the grid model, where, we're focusing on transfers,

with high frequency grid routes.

with our geography, we just can't do that.

There is no grid.

Okay.

And so we had to go kind of a more robust radial type.

system.

but again, trying to improve frequency, headways as much as possible, make bus

routes, make the routes go in straight lines as much as possible, and enable

those transfers where the opportunities were given, but, but not basing our entire

network off people making transfers.

Really good, kind of self awareness of your

geography and your system.

Proof of the old adage that if you've seen one transit system,

you've seen one transit system.

Because everyone is different.

Now tell us the results.

I think you've had some fantastic results as it relates to ridership

and reduced transfers, spreading the load, not the crush load.

Go through all that with us.

we implemented in June of 2023, so we're about 9

months in or so, and so far we've, most months, seen at least a 15 percent jump,

since then, so I think In ridership.

Yeah, in ridership, and so, still fairly early, but, all signs are

pointing in the right direction.

That's promising,

yeah.

Yeah, but I think one of the things that's, that's

especially unique about it is that we've seen a big drop in transfer activity.

So while unlinked trips are down or are up 15 percent and we've we've actually

seen like paid boardings go up almost 30%.

And so, again, it's very difficult for us to parse the data out, but, we

feel that the actual increase in the number of people using our system,

not just number of unlinked boardings.

is more in the range of 30%.

So, yeah, a huge benefit, huge increase.

Yeah, and the service has kind of been spread out.

You don't have those heavy peaks where there's no room for anybody on

the bus and people are left standing.

Yeah, so our old system was, was very much

designed around the 9 to 5 commuter.

And so we have spread that out a little bit, to, to reflect again, some of the

COVID, the changes in COVID in terms of.

work from home as well as, you know, more 24 hour shifts, that service

workers and, and others, are doing.

and so, we have spread that, that peak across the day a bit more, So

we've seen ridership in the midday and weekends, significantly, passed

higher than our pre COVID numbers.

but the peaks, still are a little bit lower.

One of the things that I think is, as you kind of alluded to, is that

our . our ridership is so strong that we often have issues with capacity,

and, and overloads and pass bys.

and, and those are challenges that we're continuing to mitigate.

it's not one that the, the redesign, solved, but it, it's helped.

and, and our.

Bus Rapid Transit will help even more as we implement 60 foot buses.

So.

Let's talk about that.

What, what convinced you that you needed a BRT?

It seems like the last six interviews I've done with CEOs

are all talking about their BRT.

You know, some of them have one route, like our, our latest two television

shows in, Tulsa and in Kansas City, they're both all about the next BRT line.

What convinced you you needed to get into that, into that

world of Bus Rapid Transit?

I think our, our high ridership demand and our very

linear nature of the, of the city, just make us a perfect candidate for that.

And, and we, I think that shows in some of the scoring criteria

of our grant applications, but, you know, we are very much.

Arranged in a straight line.

and, so our BRT will actually, it, it'll kind of almost be three

routes overlapping on each other.

And we'll actually have five minute headways in the core of the city.

Wow.

Five minutes.

That's good with, with 60 foot buses.

So, it'll be, it, it will really provide that spine of capacity

that we desperately need.

because right now we're just throwing extra buses out there on a regular

basis just to absorb the demand.

and that's, that's a challenge for operationally.

and it's not really, it's not intuitive or useful for passengers other than

just being able to get on the bus.

So,

and you're, because you're a city department, you've been able to

get What, 70 percent did you mention?

Dedicated lanes, center platform stations, level boarding, TSP, the whole, the

whole, cornucopia of, prizes that are coming your way to do a real BRT, man.

Yep.

And, and, I do think it's going to be a national model.

and yeah, that's one place we're being a city department.

has made things easier.

Yes.

In most situations, it's made it more difficult, but in that

particular case, it's actually been a lot easier to implement as a city department.

So a little bit more about it.

did I understand you're doing electric buses with overhead charging on route?

Tell me about that.

we'll actually be, again, we've kind of structured

it as three separate lines all overlapping with each other.

and because of the length of those lines, because we're a radial type network.

the, the system, it's about 16 miles long, and in the main section of line,

but we're actually buying 46 of these 60 foot electric buses, as part of the

project, and they will be charged, at the layover points at the end of the

line, where we're actually building park and rides and off street facilities.

where it will have overhead, pantograph chargers, and, restroom facility for

drivers, and, and just be an overall, quality place to wait, off street.

So, we, and we've built in a lot of duplication and redundancy

in that charging system.

so for example, we have two chargers at each end of the line, whereas

in reality, we really only probably needed one charger at one end.

but again, we wanted to build in a lot of that redundancy, just in case there

was an issue with, with a charger, with a power grid, with anything else.

we're actually on four chargers on three different power utility companies.

So, we built in a lot of protections there.

Yeah, that's interesting, Justin.

And, when do you anticipate, like, What's the timeline for the BRT?

So we're under construction now.

we expect construction to wrap this summer and then we go into operation this fall.

Wow, that's awesome.

exact timeline is still TBD.

Well, let me know.

We'd love to get up there and film that and all that stuff, maybe

for a future show on the TV show.

That'd be awesome.

One other interesting tidbit about this that I wanted you to share was

how, what your payment options are going to be for fare collection.

So, I know most BRT lines use a proof of

payment system with fare inspection, kind of no barrier boarding.

our system was being designed, in, you know, 2020, 2021.

There was a lot of concern, around profiling, especially racial profiling

of the fare inspectors, which I know has been at least a concern,

if not a reality, in other cities.

and we also have a bit of a unique arrangement with the University of

Wisconsin where they, where they pay for their students and staff

on a per ride basis, rather than just kind of a, a flat lump sum.

And so we knew that we needed to accurately track each of those

individual boardings because typically somebody with an unlimited ride

monthly pass, they don't tap their card at a station for proof of payment.

those two things kind of coming together, we ultimately decided to go with, With

not doing proof of payment, instead you, you will tap your card to board on

the, as you board the bus, but we will have all door boarding, and so there

will be a fare validator at each of the doors, so 60 foot buses, 3 doors,

and, people will be able to board any door, tap their card as they board.

And we've actually kind of built into the system.

Camera views for the, the bus operator so that they have a very clear view

in their dashboard of the boarding activity at the middle and rear door.

and so that they, they have some ability to monitor that, you know,

ultimately we, we won't tell them to stop the bus and make somebody pay.

We will ask them to remind people, but, but ultimately, it will be the

driver that will be enforcing things.

Gotcha.

So do you have a police force or do you have an agreement with your local police

force to monitor for safety and security?

We do not have our own police force.

we do have a contract with the city police department, to, to provide, you

know, whatever services we might need.

and again, that's another place where being a part of the city is helpful,

as we can share camera footage fairly easily with them and, fortunately, we, we

haven't had to, to use that a whole lot.

and that's been helpful.

But But yes, we don't have our own.

Let's quickly go through a couple other items in our remaining time.

I'd wanted you to walk us through your plans for new

facilities and new technology.

Yeah.

we are currently a one facility operation.

we're in a building that was built for 160 buses.

And as I mentioned, we have about 200.

and so, we've outgrown our space, And we have grown it for a long time.

And so, we're in the process, we've purchased a new facility, and we're

in the process of renovating that.

that will become online this summer as well.

and so we'll go to a two facility operation at that point.

and then, that will give us the opportunity to, To grow as well

as again, as we continue to grow the system, we needed that space.

And so that's important.

But our main facility is also was built in the early 80s and basically

untouched until about 3 or 4 years ago.

And so we are in the.

process of renovating that to bring it to more modern standards as well.

So we've completed three, three phases and our fourth phase and

final is planned for next year.

So excited to bring that to fruition.

Yeah.

Do you have the BRT buses already or are they coming in over the

summer or what's the game plan?

they're coming in.

We have, I believe at last check, about 20 of them in house, but they're

coming in three a week roughly.

So you're really setting yourself up, I think, for a successful

future, Justin, but I want to, in our remaining few moments, I want to jump

to your past, because I found, your career path very interesting, and

particularly the master's degree you got.

A lot of times, people in this industry fall into it.

They don't plan for it.

but you had a very interesting career path and you got an

interesting master's degree.

I was wondering if you could tell us some about that.

Sure.

so yeah, my, my undergrad was, was actually mechanical engineering.

and I did not go into transit immediately.

So, I grew up in a small farm community, had never ridden a

bus until I went to college.

and, I got there and, was in Champaign Urbana, and was riding on buses for

the first time, they were 20 years old, and they had holes in them, and,

and, we were cra all crammed in there like sardines, and, whereas most people

would have thought it was terrible, I was, I was amazed at the efficiency of

it all, and, and how to move that many people that efficiently, and so, I kind

of, fell in love with it at that point.

but I, I continued my career, and got my degree and started

working in the aircraft industry.

I was ultimately designing aircraft engines for Rolls Royce, but decided

that that wasn't the path I wanted to go.

And transit had already been in the back of my mind for a while, and

so I decided to pursue a master's degree in transportation systems

analysis, basically a hybrid of transportation engineering and planning.

And, you know, it's still not a transit specific degree, but it's

about as close as you can get.

and so, it really, I think, positioned me well for success.

and then, and then I undertook the challenge of basically starting over

in a new career field, and, and was fortunate to, to land a, a role,

and I've moved my way up since then.

And you took that degree at the University of

South Florida, Cutter, right?

The Center for Urban Transportation Research.

Yep, that's right.

That's a great school.

I have friends that work there.

It's a really good background for exactly what you just did.

Reboot your whole system and plan for the future.

Yeah.

So I think having those fundamentals, that background is, is very useful.

Justin, we wish you the very best as you continue to grow your

system, to meet the challenges of the future and really modernize it.

Any last words you'd like to share?

no, just, I want to say thank you again.

And, thanks for giving me the opportunity to highlight Madison and, and yeah,

I look forward to, to talking with you more as we continue to roll

out these, these major projects.

Thank you.

. Tris Hussey: This is Tris Hussey editor of the Transit Unplugged podcast.

Thanks for listening to this week's episode with our special guests, Justin

Stuehrenberg of Madison Metro transit.

Now coming up next week.

It's a pretty special episode.

It's episode 300.

Yes.

We've had 300 episodes.

Over now are seven seasons of Transit Unplugged.

And to celebrate.

We have a special CEO round table recorded at ThinkTransit in Tucson, Arizona.

This is a really great interview.

Where you get some inside perspectives and what it's like to be a transit CEO.

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