1 00:00:37,930 --> 00:00:41,060 W. Curtis Preston: hi, and welcome to Backup Central's Restore It All podcast. 2 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:43,690 I'm a host w Curtis Preston, aka Mr. 3 00:00:43,690 --> 00:00:51,460 Backup, and I have with me my pedantry prognosticator Prasanna Malaiyandi 4 00:00:52,540 --> 00:00:53,710 Prasanna Malaiyandi: So wait, what am I? 5 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:55,210 W. Curtis Preston: Pedantry. 6 00:00:55,260 --> 00:00:55,470 It. 7 00:00:55,470 --> 00:00:57,900 It's like, uh, it's like pedantic. 8 00:00:58,260 --> 00:00:59,160 It's like pedantry. 9 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:00,680 You know, pedantry. 10 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:01,480 Is it Pedantry? 11 00:01:01,710 --> 00:01:02,320 Pedant. 12 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:03,530 Prasanna Malaiyandi: I 13 00:01:03,675 --> 00:01:06,165 W. Curtis Preston: it's, yeah, it's pedantry. 14 00:01:06,195 --> 00:01:07,075 No, it's pedantry. 15 00:01:07,165 --> 00:01:11,285 Pedantry Prognosticator Prasanna Malaiyandi 16 00:01:11,505 --> 00:01:13,365 Prasanna Malaiyandi: how many more PS can he throw in there? 17 00:01:13,365 --> 00:01:14,405 What's going on, Curtis? 18 00:01:14,905 --> 00:01:16,005 You doing okay? 19 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,020 W. Curtis Preston: cause we're doing, we're doing, we're doing, we're 20 00:01:18,020 --> 00:01:20,600 doing some, some pedantry today. 21 00:01:20,930 --> 00:01:22,400 Uh, we are 22 00:01:22,755 --> 00:01:23,755 Prasanna Malaiyandi: very specific. 23 00:01:24,320 --> 00:01:25,530 W. Curtis Preston: very specific. 24 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:31,460 Uh, pedantry is defined as the excessive concern with minor details and rules. 25 00:01:32,870 --> 00:01:37,070 And we're arguing over two words that many people consider to be synonyms. 26 00:01:37,070 --> 00:01:38,600 And we're going, no, they're not. 27 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:40,160 They are not the same. 28 00:01:40,700 --> 00:01:42,740 Last week we talked about backup. 29 00:01:43,835 --> 00:01:45,545 This week we're gonna talk about archive. 30 00:01:45,545 --> 00:01:49,625 This is of course, a continuation of our backup to basic series, 31 00:01:49,685 --> 00:01:54,755 which is, um, referring to my book, modern Data Protection. 32 00:01:55,340 --> 00:01:56,420 Little picture of there. 33 00:01:56,690 --> 00:02:03,890 Um, uh, which you can get for free at ebook version by going to druva.com/ebook. 34 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:08,030 It is my latest O'Reilly book, although I'm thinking about writing a new one. 35 00:02:08,540 --> 00:02:13,910 Um, the, uh, we'll see, we'll see if I actually pull it off, but, uh, this 36 00:02:13,915 --> 00:02:16,550 last one took 10 years . So , we'll 37 00:02:16,690 --> 00:02:18,530 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Well, well, well, let's be honest though, 38 00:02:18,530 --> 00:02:22,310 Curtis, it took you 10 years from the first time you thought about it 39 00:02:22,310 --> 00:02:25,790 to when it got published, but from when you actually started writing. 40 00:02:26,420 --> 00:02:28,190 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, it was about what, like three months 41 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:28,730 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 42 00:02:28,820 --> 00:02:30,560 It was three months for you to write the book. 43 00:02:31,130 --> 00:02:32,180 W. Curtis Preston: It was all in the treadmill. 44 00:02:32,210 --> 00:02:32,750 Remember? 45 00:02:32,900 --> 00:02:34,970 It was, uh, it was a, it was a, uh, 46 00:02:35,150 --> 00:02:35,870 Prasanna Malaiyandi: of the pandemic. 47 00:02:36,590 --> 00:02:38,030 W. Curtis Preston: yeah, pandemic project. 48 00:02:38,270 --> 00:02:41,750 Um, the, uh, it was a Preston Pandemic project. 49 00:02:41,750 --> 00:02:48,635 Speaking of , the piece, but it, um, I did it on the treadmill, used a dragon, 50 00:02:48,845 --> 00:02:51,035 uh, professional, a big fan of that. 51 00:02:51,035 --> 00:02:52,385 I've used it for many, many years. 52 00:02:53,015 --> 00:02:57,365 And, um, and then immediately put it into Google Docs and then let you look at it. 53 00:02:57,875 --> 00:02:58,175 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yep. 54 00:02:58,265 --> 00:03:01,265 W. Curtis Preston: You are one of my many technical 55 00:03:02,195 --> 00:03:02,945 Prasanna Malaiyandi: reviewers. 56 00:03:03,545 --> 00:03:03,755 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah. 57 00:03:03,755 --> 00:03:04,595 Technical reviewers. 58 00:03:04,595 --> 00:03:05,255 What were you gonna say? 59 00:03:05,765 --> 00:03:06,245 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah, no. 60 00:03:06,395 --> 00:03:10,925 Yeah, I was gonna say that there were quite a few people reviewing, right. 61 00:03:10,955 --> 00:03:11,975 Your work, but. 62 00:03:12,125 --> 00:03:15,215 W. Curtis Preston: some, some people did just like one chapter, right? 63 00:03:15,305 --> 00:03:19,925 Um, I had other people, I did other people that work for competitors. 64 00:03:19,925 --> 00:03:23,225 And by the way, I'll, you know, since I'm talking about that, I'll mention that. 65 00:03:23,225 --> 00:03:26,375 Uh, I work for Druva, uh, Prasanna works for Zoom. 66 00:03:26,555 --> 00:03:29,135 Uh, this is not a podcast of either company. 67 00:03:29,525 --> 00:03:31,805 Uh, the opinions that you hear are ours. 68 00:03:32,555 --> 00:03:39,395 And, um, you know, but because I work for Druva, obviously a competitor in 69 00:03:39,655 --> 00:03:42,665 the space or a vendor in the space, I wanted to make sure that I wasn't, 70 00:03:43,025 --> 00:03:46,805 uh, I was trying really hard not to weight the book on Druva's behalf. 71 00:03:46,805 --> 00:03:50,015 So I had some people that work for, uh, a couple of the vendors, 72 00:03:50,165 --> 00:03:51,665 uh, competitors that we run into. 73 00:03:51,785 --> 00:03:54,210 Um, Uh, do a technical review. 74 00:03:54,870 --> 00:04:00,540 But, uh, also, uh, please rate us at, uh, by, go to your favorite, uh, podcast 75 00:04:00,540 --> 00:04:04,590 or scroll down to the stars and give us all the stars and comments and whatnot. 76 00:04:05,130 --> 00:04:09,090 And if you wanna join a conversation, just reach out to me, w Curtis 77 00:04:09,090 --> 00:04:13,860 Preston gmail, or at WC preston on Twitter and we'll make it happen. 78 00:04:15,150 --> 00:04:18,720 Um, so we're gonna talk about archive. 79 00:04:19,490 --> 00:04:23,360 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Actually before you, before we get to that, I think for 80 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:28,280 people who may not want to come on the podcast because they're unsure or don't 81 00:04:28,285 --> 00:04:30,890 wanna spend the time, I think it's also. 82 00:04:31,405 --> 00:04:34,595 It's important that they could reach out to either of us on 83 00:04:34,595 --> 00:04:36,185 Twitter and start a conversation. 84 00:04:36,185 --> 00:04:36,365 Right. 85 00:04:36,365 --> 00:04:38,315 You don't have to come on the podcast, right? 86 00:04:38,315 --> 00:04:39,935 We wanna engage with our listeners. 87 00:04:39,935 --> 00:04:43,775 If you have questions, if you want us to talk about a topic right, that 88 00:04:43,775 --> 00:04:45,695 you're interested in, let us know. 89 00:04:46,445 --> 00:04:47,135 W. Curtis Preston: Absolutely. 90 00:04:47,255 --> 00:04:47,915 Absolutely. 91 00:04:48,335 --> 00:04:55,025 If you just wanna write me an email and say, Prasanna sucks, um, that is fine. 92 00:04:55,385 --> 00:04:56,675 And, um, 93 00:04:58,865 --> 00:04:59,675 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 94 00:05:00,275 --> 00:05:00,725 Uh, sure, 95 00:05:00,755 --> 00:05:02,015 W. Curtis Preston: no one would ever do that. 96 00:05:02,045 --> 00:05:02,735 You're too nice. 97 00:05:02,735 --> 00:05:03,785 Everybody likes you. 98 00:05:04,325 --> 00:05:06,995 Um, so , right? 99 00:05:06,995 --> 00:05:10,925 So last, the last week's episode, we talked about the definition of backup, 100 00:05:10,930 --> 00:05:12,275 and that's really, really important. 101 00:05:13,655 --> 00:05:16,055 One of the reasons why it was really, really important is 102 00:05:16,055 --> 00:05:17,555 because it's not an archive. 103 00:05:18,365 --> 00:05:22,295 Archive is something very closely related to backup and people talk 104 00:05:22,295 --> 00:05:26,135 a lot about it, and archive is actually something a little bit. 105 00:05:26,975 --> 00:05:28,475 Harder to define. 106 00:05:28,805 --> 00:05:33,875 Um, but, and, and also because again, uh, it's used, you know, 107 00:05:33,875 --> 00:05:37,475 as a, as we mentioned, it's used a lot in popular culture, right? 108 00:05:37,805 --> 00:05:42,395 I think about, when I think about the, the pop culture understanding of the word 109 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:46,115 archive, I think about the final scene in the original Raiders of the Lost Arc. 110 00:05:47,315 --> 00:05:49,085 Do, do you remember the final scene. 111 00:05:49,505 --> 00:05:52,250 Prasanna Malaiyandi: is this the one where they are 112 00:05:52,730 --> 00:05:53,120 in the 113 00:05:53,150 --> 00:05:54,620 W. Curtis Preston: They, killed all the Nazis. 114 00:05:55,130 --> 00:05:56,870 Remember they killed all the Nazis. 115 00:05:57,530 --> 00:06:00,740 And then they, and so they got the, they got the arc, right? 116 00:06:01,250 --> 00:06:02,480 They got the arc at a covenant. 117 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:04,460 then what? 118 00:06:04,580 --> 00:06:06,080 You remember the very final scene? 119 00:06:07,730 --> 00:06:09,550 Prasanna Malaiyandi: I don't remember the very final scene. 120 00:06:09,770 --> 00:06:11,670 W. Curtis Preston: They're like, well, somebody doing something with this ark. 121 00:06:11,670 --> 00:06:14,510 And they're, oh yeah, yeah, we got, we got our best people on it. 122 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:20,570 And they show them hammering it shut into a wooden, um, Crate and 123 00:06:20,570 --> 00:06:24,801 then putting that crate into this gigantic warehouse with thousands of 124 00:06:24,806 --> 00:06:26,090 other crates that look just like it. 125 00:06:26,580 --> 00:06:26,795 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yep. 126 00:06:27,140 --> 00:06:29,330 W. Curtis Preston: Um, I also think about like cold case. 127 00:06:29,660 --> 00:06:32,630 I dunno if you've ever watched Cold Case, right? 128 00:06:32,690 --> 00:06:35,570 Where they're just combing through the archives, they're combing through these 129 00:06:35,570 --> 00:06:38,780 old cases and they're just boxes of stuff. 130 00:06:39,110 --> 00:06:42,110 But by the way, we're, we're gonna come back to that cold case thing 131 00:06:42,110 --> 00:06:47,120 because I think it's actually the way they archive cases is actually. 132 00:06:47,750 --> 00:06:51,200 Pretty close to what I think of as one of the types of archives. 133 00:06:52,340 --> 00:06:58,970 Um, and people think, and people therefore think of any old data 134 00:06:59,435 --> 00:06:59,705 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yep. 135 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:01,010 W. Curtis Preston: as an archive. 136 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:07,910 And so they use the phrase, which, you know, makes my spine tingle. 137 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,120 They used the phrase, I'm gonna archive a backup. 138 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,050 Um, that is not a phrase. 139 00:07:15,740 --> 00:07:17,660 Um, You know, 140 00:07:18,170 --> 00:07:18,800 Prasanna Malaiyandi: You know what? 141 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:24,140 We should print stickers and if you want a sticker, let us know. 142 00:07:26,540 --> 00:07:27,950 archive is not backup. 143 00:07:28,940 --> 00:07:31,460 W. Curtis Preston: Archive is not bag up and you can't archive a backup. 144 00:07:31,460 --> 00:07:33,950 Now let me, here, here. 145 00:07:33,980 --> 00:07:34,970 I like analogies. 146 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,150 Um, grape juice. 147 00:07:41,510 --> 00:07:42,170 Is grape juice. 148 00:07:42,170 --> 00:07:45,920 Everybody knows what grape juice is like Welch is grape juice, right? 149 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,200 I don't know if you're outside of the states that that might not be, 150 00:07:48,875 --> 00:07:49,085 Prasanna Malaiyandi: It's a 151 00:07:49,310 --> 00:07:51,230 W. Curtis Preston: you know what grape juice is, right? 152 00:07:52,430 --> 00:07:54,050 Uh, you know what wine is? 153 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,500 Wine is also grape juice, 154 00:07:57,905 --> 00:07:58,265 Prasanna Malaiyandi: yep, 155 00:07:58,940 --> 00:08:02,390 W. Curtis Preston: but it's made for a different purpose and you u and and 156 00:08:02,690 --> 00:08:04,460 it's made with a different process. 157 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:08,180 Both involves putting grape juice in a bottle and leaving it 158 00:08:08,180 --> 00:08:09,890 there for long periods of time. 159 00:08:11,345 --> 00:08:16,655 One is made slightly different than the other, and as a result, 160 00:08:16,685 --> 00:08:18,215 you get a very different result. 161 00:08:19,055 --> 00:08:21,875 One will get you drunk, one will not, right? 162 00:08:22,055 --> 00:08:26,525 You can't take a bottle of Welch's grape juice, set it on a shelf for, you know, 163 00:08:26,525 --> 00:08:28,775 five years and expect to get drunk on it. 164 00:08:29,675 --> 00:08:30,155 Okay? 165 00:08:30,695 --> 00:08:34,235 Um, and the same result, you can't open a bottle of Chardonnay 166 00:08:34,235 --> 00:08:35,645 and give it to a five year old 167 00:08:36,905 --> 00:08:40,085 Prasanna Malaiyandi: you could, but depending on what country you're in. 168 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:42,650 W. Curtis Preston: The results will be unpredictable. 169 00:08:42,860 --> 00:08:47,240 Uh, there's a funny, there's a funny, um, ticker that I, I look at, her 170 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:52,450 name's Miss Sutter Southern and she's this, um, lessons in teaching 171 00:08:52,455 --> 00:08:53,450 that they're never gonna tell you. 172 00:08:53,450 --> 00:08:57,650 She had, it's very, she has all these cute little stories and she had this, this. 173 00:08:58,025 --> 00:09:01,685 This dispute in like kindergarten or first grade or something, and they, they 174 00:09:01,685 --> 00:09:07,085 had a bet and, and the winning bet, what was going to the person that won the bet 175 00:09:07,535 --> 00:09:11,375 or the loser had to bring in the other person, one of his sparkling waters. 176 00:09:11,910 --> 00:09:12,400 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Okay. 177 00:09:12,515 --> 00:09:14,765 W. Curtis Preston: So he brought in sparkling water and then the next day 178 00:09:15,155 --> 00:09:19,265 the kid was acting a little goofy and wanting to go pee a lot and everything. 179 00:09:19,295 --> 00:09:22,955 And then, uh, she looked in the can and it was a, it was a truly, 180 00:09:24,110 --> 00:09:24,140 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Oh, 181 00:09:24,935 --> 00:09:28,355 W. Curtis Preston: his mom stored her trulys right next to which again, 182 00:09:28,355 --> 00:09:33,515 if you're not in the States, that is a carbonated alcoholic beverage 183 00:09:33,765 --> 00:09:34,185 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yep. 184 00:09:35,405 --> 00:09:39,215 W. Curtis Preston: And she, uh, uh, she's like, not my fault. 185 00:09:40,275 --> 00:09:44,600 Um, So, yeah, so old backups don't magically turn into archives. 186 00:09:44,660 --> 00:09:46,100 Uh, they're just really old backups. 187 00:09:46,490 --> 00:09:52,340 So here is my definition of an archive, some of which will sound familiar. 188 00:09:52,340 --> 00:09:54,950 If you listened to last week's episode. 189 00:09:55,610 --> 00:09:59,180 An archive is a copy of data stored in a separate location. 190 00:09:59,990 --> 00:10:05,690 So far we're the same, made to serve as a reference copy and stored with 191 00:10:05,690 --> 00:10:09,500 enough metadata to find the data in question without knowing where it came. 192 00:10:11,105 --> 00:10:16,175 So that's very different sounding than, we'll, we'll cover those 193 00:10:16,175 --> 00:10:17,795 phrases, just like what we did. 194 00:10:17,885 --> 00:10:27,095 Um, the, um, so what differentiates an archive from a backup is why you made it 195 00:10:27,155 --> 00:10:29,435 and, and how you're gonna store it, right? 196 00:10:30,185 --> 00:10:34,385 So, um, and again, I, I, I was trying to come up with a definition. 197 00:10:36,245 --> 00:10:38,735 That would fit many different types of archives. 198 00:10:39,305 --> 00:10:42,005 Um, so, so let's talk about, let's talk about a couple of 199 00:10:42,005 --> 00:10:42,995 different types of archives. 200 00:10:44,315 --> 00:10:49,865 Um, one, the first type of archive I remember having anything to do 201 00:10:49,865 --> 00:10:53,135 with was actually, uh, in my early 202 00:10:53,675 --> 00:10:54,845 legato days. 203 00:10:55,565 --> 00:10:56,045 Remember Lego. 204 00:10:56,885 --> 00:10:57,245 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yep. 205 00:10:58,715 --> 00:10:59,675 Yes, I do. 206 00:10:59,735 --> 00:11:00,125 Yep. 207 00:11:00,185 --> 00:11:00,515 W. Curtis Preston: by the way. 208 00:11:00,515 --> 00:11:03,365 You know, I always thought about, by the way, are, I don't know how much 209 00:11:03,365 --> 00:11:10,265 musical, um, you know, training you have, but what does legato mean in music? 210 00:11:12,225 --> 00:11:12,575 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Oh, 211 00:11:13,595 --> 00:11:15,155 W. Curtis Preston: It's the opposite of staccato. 212 00:11:15,695 --> 00:11:16,865 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Chicago's fast, right? 213 00:11:17,510 --> 00:11:18,290 W. Curtis Preston: Well, staccato is, 214 00:11:19,025 --> 00:11:19,445 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 215 00:11:19,490 --> 00:11:21,500 W. Curtis Preston: you know, like short, short burst. 216 00:11:21,770 --> 00:11:24,230 Ligato means like long and slow. 217 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:25,640 Like I've never understood 218 00:11:26,135 --> 00:11:27,155 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Why you call it that? 219 00:11:27,560 --> 00:11:32,090 W. Curtis Preston: Why they called it Ligado when that means like, slow it down. 220 00:11:32,390 --> 00:11:34,190 I've never quite understood that. 221 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,070 Um, , it's the opposite of staccato. 222 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,190 They should have called it staccato networker anyway. 223 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:45,620 Um, so yeah, so, so what they had and other backup products had, they 224 00:11:45,650 --> 00:11:47,780 had this concept of an archive. 225 00:11:48,110 --> 00:11:51,230 And what they would do is you would identify a bunch of files. 226 00:11:52,070 --> 00:11:53,450 They would go in this archive. 227 00:11:53,510 --> 00:11:56,900 They would put it in this archive, which meant they sort 228 00:11:56,900 --> 00:11:58,640 of stored them all together. 229 00:11:59,090 --> 00:12:04,010 Generally speaking, this puts it into something like, or akin to like a tarball. 230 00:12:04,550 --> 00:12:08,150 Um, obviously networker didn't use tar, but, but it's akin to that. 231 00:12:09,500 --> 00:12:15,680 And then you had to give it some metadata allow you to find. 232 00:12:16,445 --> 00:12:17,555 Again in the future. 233 00:12:17,555 --> 00:12:22,325 So you would put a bunch of stuff together and you'd say, this is the 234 00:12:22,685 --> 00:12:27,795 Albatross 2023 project, so that when it's. 235 00:12:28,550 --> 00:12:33,080 10 years from now, you all you would need to remember is the name of the project or 236 00:12:33,750 --> 00:12:35,390 whatever it is that you, you put it there. 237 00:12:35,630 --> 00:12:37,910 You'd have to go, well, we need, we need, remember, we need 238 00:12:37,910 --> 00:12:39,980 the Albatross project of 2023. 239 00:12:40,370 --> 00:12:42,020 You would do a retrieve. 240 00:12:42,020 --> 00:12:44,497 By the way, that's what you do with archives is you retrieve 241 00:12:44,497 --> 00:12:45,757 them, you don't restore them. 242 00:12:45,757 --> 00:12:52,057 We defined what a restore was last week, and when you do that retrieve, you get 243 00:12:52,087 --> 00:12:55,057 all of the stuff that was put in that box. 244 00:12:56,527 --> 00:12:59,047 This, I liken it to the cold case 245 00:12:59,317 --> 00:13:01,057 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah, I was just thinking about the cold case, right? 246 00:13:01,057 --> 00:13:04,837 You put everything, all evidence associated with the case in a box 247 00:13:04,837 --> 00:13:07,207 and you put it in the shelf, right? 248 00:13:07,417 --> 00:13:12,427 And then when you wanna retrieve it, you go, you find the box, you pull 249 00:13:12,427 --> 00:13:14,827 the box out, you open the box, and it has everything that you needed. 250 00:13:15,417 --> 00:13:19,147 W. Curtis Preston: and the box is named by the name of the case, right? 251 00:13:19,147 --> 00:13:22,147 Probably the name of the, the decedent by the. 252 00:13:23,682 --> 00:13:24,487 the deceased. 253 00:13:24,697 --> 00:13:25,327 Deceased. 254 00:13:26,167 --> 00:13:28,117 You learn so much grammar on this show. 255 00:13:29,287 --> 00:13:30,427 Deceased is a state. 256 00:13:30,727 --> 00:13:35,047 The decedent is a person, the decedent is deceased. 257 00:13:35,527 --> 00:13:37,627 Well, but they, they, it's just in tv. 258 00:13:37,627 --> 00:13:41,227 They often say the deceased and they, they're referring to a 259 00:13:41,227 --> 00:13:46,567 person, and I'm like, deceased is an adjective, decedent is a noun. 260 00:13:46,657 --> 00:13:47,137 Anyway, 261 00:13:47,287 --> 00:13:48,247 Prasanna Malaiyandi: know what? 262 00:13:49,207 --> 00:13:51,937 I bet you, so I watch a lot of N C I S. 263 00:13:52,237 --> 00:13:53,947 I think they wrong on the show. 264 00:13:54,997 --> 00:13:55,717 W. Curtis Preston: Oh, they're wrong. 265 00:13:55,717 --> 00:13:57,217 They're, I don't know. 266 00:13:57,217 --> 00:14:00,997 I don't know if I've ever seen a show that gets that word correct. 267 00:14:01,237 --> 00:14:01,657 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 268 00:14:01,687 --> 00:14:05,527 Because even the medical examiner, he always says the deceased, 269 00:14:06,007 --> 00:14:08,167 W. Curtis Preston: yeah, it's not the deceased, it's the decedent. 270 00:14:08,617 --> 00:14:11,527 Um, also, what do you do to an animal? 271 00:14:12,427 --> 00:14:12,637 Uh, 272 00:14:13,137 --> 00:14:13,927 Prasanna Malaiyandi: you kill it. 273 00:14:16,777 --> 00:14:19,087 W. Curtis Preston: If an animal, if an animal is dead and you're trying 274 00:14:19,087 --> 00:14:20,617 to figure out why, what do you do? 275 00:14:20,707 --> 00:14:21,697 You perform a 276 00:14:22,042 --> 00:14:22,912 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Autopsy. 277 00:14:23,567 --> 00:14:23,917 W. Curtis Preston: ne. 278 00:14:26,452 --> 00:14:27,112 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Autopsy 279 00:14:27,187 --> 00:14:30,277 W. Curtis Preston: auto, you do autopsies on people you do NEPs on, 280 00:14:30,577 --> 00:14:31,987 which is really just Latin for dead, 281 00:14:32,422 --> 00:14:32,842 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Hmm. 282 00:14:33,307 --> 00:14:36,607 W. Curtis Preston: Um, but um, yeah, the decedent, 283 00:14:36,772 --> 00:14:37,192 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 284 00:14:37,552 --> 00:14:37,732 Yeah. 285 00:14:37,882 --> 00:14:37,972 Okay. 286 00:14:38,062 --> 00:14:38,272 So 287 00:14:38,467 --> 00:14:40,867 W. Curtis Preston: patan crap that Curtis knows. 288 00:14:41,587 --> 00:14:47,257 Um, by the way, also, uh, when you say, uh, I'm nauseous, that means 289 00:14:47,257 --> 00:14:48,937 that you're sickening to look at it. 290 00:14:48,937 --> 00:14:52,327 Doesn't mean that you're, what you mean to say is you're nauseated. 291 00:14:53,212 --> 00:14:53,332 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Hmm. 292 00:14:54,152 --> 00:14:56,302 W. Curtis Preston: Are, are you really ? Are you picking up, 293 00:14:56,722 --> 00:14:56,932 are you 294 00:14:56,962 --> 00:14:58,552 Prasanna Malaiyandi: I'm not gonna remember any of these things. 295 00:14:58,882 --> 00:14:59,452 You're just gonna have 296 00:14:59,482 --> 00:15:00,082 W. Curtis Preston: That's right. 297 00:15:00,682 --> 00:15:01,432 That's right. 298 00:15:02,062 --> 00:15:03,802 All right, so to serve as a reference, right? 299 00:15:03,802 --> 00:15:06,652 So we talked about the stuff in the box. 300 00:15:06,802 --> 00:15:09,172 Can you think about different types of archives? 301 00:15:10,882 --> 00:15:12,022 Prasanna Malaiyandi: I was thinking 302 00:15:12,112 --> 00:15:13,132 W. Curtis Preston: talked about one already. 303 00:15:13,522 --> 00:15:13,792 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 304 00:15:14,032 --> 00:15:16,912 Well, and, and I think the one I was thinking about was very similar, 305 00:15:16,912 --> 00:15:21,172 so it's, you talked about, okay, you're done with the project. 306 00:15:21,177 --> 00:15:25,372 Another case, maybe you're done with an application or 307 00:15:25,372 --> 00:15:27,412 with an entire infrastructure, 308 00:15:27,872 --> 00:15:28,362 W. Curtis Preston: yeah. 309 00:15:28,492 --> 00:15:30,442 Prasanna Malaiyandi: You're moving from on premises to the cloud, but 310 00:15:30,442 --> 00:15:34,702 you don't wanna get rid of all that on-prem data, but you want to archive. 311 00:15:35,452 --> 00:15:36,062 W. Curtis Preston: Mm-hmm. 312 00:15:36,622 --> 00:15:39,772 Prasanna Malaiyandi: And say, okay, all of this is related to the Oracle application 313 00:15:39,772 --> 00:15:44,713 or anything else, and keep it in a box in case later, you need to retrieve it. 314 00:15:45,622 --> 00:15:47,782 W. Curtis Preston: Oracle version X from 2022. 315 00:15:48,352 --> 00:15:48,592 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 316 00:15:48,862 --> 00:15:49,942 W. Curtis Preston: Um, yeah. 317 00:15:49,942 --> 00:15:50,602 Et cetera. 318 00:15:51,022 --> 00:15:51,472 Um, 319 00:15:52,972 --> 00:15:54,652 Prasanna Malaiyandi: I was also thinking about like projects. 320 00:15:55,162 --> 00:15:56,242 This is very similar projects. 321 00:15:56,242 --> 00:15:58,912 I, I always think about like drug research, right? 322 00:15:58,917 --> 00:16:01,222 Because drug research, you keep that around forever. 323 00:16:02,377 --> 00:16:04,807 But not all the time is it actively being used. 324 00:16:04,807 --> 00:16:10,057 And so typically they end up taking all of their research, archiving it, right? 325 00:16:10,057 --> 00:16:11,227 So it's still available. 326 00:16:11,227 --> 00:16:14,137 And then when they have something that comes up or some issues, they can 327 00:16:14,137 --> 00:16:18,637 always go retrieve it and either do investigations on it, do additional 328 00:16:18,637 --> 00:16:20,407 research on it, et cetera, based on that. 329 00:16:21,292 --> 00:16:22,132 W. Curtis Preston: Exactly. 330 00:16:22,492 --> 00:16:26,362 Um, and so that is, those are all different examples 331 00:16:26,362 --> 00:16:28,222 of one type of an archive. 332 00:16:28,702 --> 00:16:33,622 There's another, there's, there's two others that they're closely related, 333 00:16:33,622 --> 00:16:38,362 but, um, I actually, I think one is type of the other, but the other 334 00:16:38,362 --> 00:16:44,782 phrase, and you said it already in the podcast, Is what do you remember? 335 00:16:45,422 --> 00:16:47,212 Prasanna Malaiyandi: I don't remember what I say on these things. 336 00:16:47,462 --> 00:16:49,612 I don't even remember what I said 30 seconds ago. 337 00:16:49,822 --> 00:16:50,122 W. Curtis Preston: minutes 338 00:16:50,122 --> 00:16:50,812 ago. 339 00:16:50,812 --> 00:16:51,082 Prasanna Malaiyandi: did. 340 00:16:52,957 --> 00:16:53,737 What did I say? 341 00:16:53,737 --> 00:16:56,257 I, my memory's really bad. 342 00:16:57,187 --> 00:16:58,627 Oh, email archives. 343 00:16:58,987 --> 00:16:59,467 There we 344 00:16:59,542 --> 00:17:00,352 W. Curtis Preston: Email archive. 345 00:17:00,712 --> 00:17:01,192 Right? 346 00:17:01,912 --> 00:17:04,462 So what's an email archive now? 347 00:17:04,462 --> 00:17:05,032 This one. 348 00:17:05,032 --> 00:17:09,892 This one really sort of bridges like it's. 349 00:17:11,527 --> 00:17:15,817 But, but I'm gonna accept the term email archive, cuz generally speaking, archives 350 00:17:15,817 --> 00:17:20,407 for old stuff that isn't used anymore, email archive is a little bit different. 351 00:17:21,007 --> 00:17:23,887 This is why, this is why the, the serve is a reference copy, 352 00:17:24,367 --> 00:17:24,697 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yep. 353 00:17:24,997 --> 00:17:25,387 W. Curtis Preston: right? 354 00:17:25,477 --> 00:17:29,707 So email archive might have e Well, if it's a proper sort 355 00:17:29,707 --> 00:17:32,497 of normal email archive, it'll have emails that came in today, 356 00:17:32,867 --> 00:17:33,287 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yep. 357 00:17:33,997 --> 00:17:34,387 W. Curtis Preston: right? 358 00:17:34,807 --> 00:17:37,267 It will also have emails that came in seven years ago, depending 359 00:17:37,267 --> 00:17:38,287 on what our retention is. 360 00:17:39,247 --> 00:17:39,697 Right. 361 00:17:40,057 --> 00:17:42,397 Um, and why are we storing those emails, 362 00:17:42,787 --> 00:17:47,197 Prasanna Malaiyandi: This is mainly for compliance, legal, issues, such 363 00:17:47,197 --> 00:17:51,307 as you get an eDiscovery case, or you want to go back and figure out was 364 00:17:51,307 --> 00:17:54,487 Curtis really stealing money from the company and who was he communicating 365 00:17:54,487 --> 00:17:56,587 with and all the rest, right? 366 00:17:56,587 --> 00:17:56,977 So 367 00:17:57,627 --> 00:18:01,927 W. Curtis Preston: Those are all correct answers, not the answer I was looking for. 368 00:18:03,457 --> 00:18:07,147 Do you know what the answer I was looking for was to serve as a reference? 369 00:18:07,917 --> 00:18:08,077 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Hmm. 370 00:18:09,367 --> 00:18:09,817 W. Curtis Preston: Right. 371 00:18:10,267 --> 00:18:14,497 We, it's the reason we, you know, we're still backing up that email server, right? 372 00:18:14,797 --> 00:18:21,397 If you have an email server, or if you had 365, you're still backing up 365, but, 373 00:18:21,667 --> 00:18:29,347 but you also might have an email archive of 365 or Gmail or you know, inbox, 374 00:18:29,857 --> 00:18:31,897 Prasanna Malaiyandi: And I think one of the cases, just going back 375 00:18:31,897 --> 00:18:36,367 to that for reference, right, it's with the case of a backup. 376 00:18:36,367 --> 00:18:39,667 If you're doing a once a day backup during the day, someone might have 377 00:18:39,667 --> 00:18:41,317 gotten an email, deleted the email. 378 00:18:41,467 --> 00:18:44,407 When you back it up, it's not in the backup. 379 00:18:44,737 --> 00:18:45,007 Right. 380 00:18:45,117 --> 00:18:47,812 W. Curtis Preston: in a backup, but it will be in a proper email archive. 381 00:18:48,322 --> 00:18:50,962 Every email that comes in and every email that goes out, will, goes, 382 00:18:51,022 --> 00:18:52,432 goes in that email archive, right? 383 00:18:52,432 --> 00:18:54,322 So it's much better for compliance purposes. 384 00:18:54,862 --> 00:19:01,342 Um, so again, going with examples, so Google Workspace has Google Vault. 385 00:19:03,007 --> 00:19:07,237 It is an email archive for Google for Gmail. 386 00:19:07,987 --> 00:19:08,467 Okay. 387 00:19:09,007 --> 00:19:09,517 Guess what? 388 00:19:09,517 --> 00:19:10,057 It's not. 389 00:19:10,957 --> 00:19:11,887 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Now back up for Gmail. 390 00:19:12,277 --> 00:19:13,777 W. Curtis Preston: It's not a backup or Gmail. 391 00:19:14,137 --> 00:19:16,417 It's got all the same stuff, right? 392 00:19:16,417 --> 00:19:17,167 It's got every email. 393 00:19:17,167 --> 00:19:19,447 In fact, it's got more based on your thing. 394 00:19:19,447 --> 00:19:22,717 Just a minute ago, it's got more than a backup would have, 395 00:19:22,807 --> 00:19:25,567 assuming that, you know, somebody actually cleared out their, um, 396 00:19:25,987 --> 00:19:26,557 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Inbox. 397 00:19:26,707 --> 00:19:27,187 W. Curtis Preston: recycle. 398 00:19:27,787 --> 00:19:34,567 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah, but I guess the question is walking through this, right? 399 00:19:34,567 --> 00:19:37,987 So you have your archive, you have the retrieve, 400 00:19:38,612 --> 00:19:39,222 W. Curtis Preston: Mm-hmm. 401 00:19:39,277 --> 00:19:39,667 Prasanna Malaiyandi: right? 402 00:19:41,137 --> 00:19:44,977 Could I not use the retrieve even though it has more than what may 403 00:19:44,977 --> 00:19:48,997 have ever existed at a point in time, been a plausible point in 404 00:19:48,997 --> 00:19:51,037 time, if that's what I'm looking for. 405 00:19:53,372 --> 00:19:58,372 I not satisfy bringing data back. 406 00:19:58,372 --> 00:20:01,252 I know it's not a restore because it was never to a valid point in 407 00:20:01,257 --> 00:20:06,832 time that existed, but could I still use that to get back data? 408 00:20:07,972 --> 00:20:09,472 W. Curtis Preston: I would shorten your answer to, can I 409 00:20:09,472 --> 00:20:11,122 use an archive to do a restore? 410 00:20:11,782 --> 00:20:12,112 Yeah. 411 00:20:12,592 --> 00:20:15,562 So, um, let me ask, let me ask you this question. 412 00:20:15,952 --> 00:20:20,212 Can I use your Tesla to haul fertilizer? 413 00:20:22,147 --> 00:20:24,487 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yes, but I wouldn't recommend it or I 414 00:20:24,487 --> 00:20:25,807 wouldn't want that to happen. 415 00:20:26,797 --> 00:20:29,647 W. Curtis Preston: And it, and it would be highly inefficient, right? 416 00:20:29,797 --> 00:20:32,287 I could only put like, you know, a certain number of bags. 417 00:20:32,287 --> 00:20:33,517 Hopefully we did it in bags. 418 00:20:33,522 --> 00:20:40,297 God forbid I have raw you know, and, you know, I gotta, I got a 419 00:20:40,302 --> 00:20:43,927 front end loader with fertilizer and we're gonna use your Tesla. 420 00:20:44,497 --> 00:20:48,277 Um, but you gotta like, it's like, no, you don't have a hatchback. 421 00:20:48,637 --> 00:20:50,197 You gotta, you have a, yeah. 422 00:20:50,647 --> 00:20:54,397 Um, so the answer is kind of, 423 00:20:55,357 --> 00:20:56,827 Prasanna Malaiyandi: It can be, but not intended. 424 00:20:57,167 --> 00:20:57,657 Yeah. 425 00:20:57,742 --> 00:20:59,182 W. Curtis Preston: with a giant butt. 426 00:20:59,777 --> 00:21:00,267 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 427 00:21:00,532 --> 00:21:03,397 W. Curtis Preston: reminds me of, uh, Peewee Herman's big adventure. 428 00:21:04,192 --> 00:21:09,292 Everybody I know has a big, but anyway, it was the, it was the, the 429 00:21:09,292 --> 00:21:11,542 naughtiest line in that G-rated movie. 430 00:21:12,052 --> 00:21:17,242 Um, the, um, and I'm five years old, so I still remember 431 00:21:17,247 --> 00:21:19,552 that line from 40 years ago. 432 00:21:20,992 --> 00:21:27,787 Anyway, um, he, um, Sorry, I totally, I totally 433 00:21:27,832 --> 00:21:31,312 Prasanna Malaiyandi: So you can use an archive for a 434 00:21:31,447 --> 00:21:35,467 W. Curtis Preston: will be really, really difficult to accomplish 435 00:21:35,467 --> 00:21:39,397 the same function, right? 436 00:21:39,427 --> 00:21:43,237 So here's, and, and you, you, you alluded to it earlier, the, the 437 00:21:43,242 --> 00:21:47,557 number one problem is, well, sort of two problems, is it's not designed 438 00:21:47,557 --> 00:21:52,747 to do that, which means you can't say, you can't say to a pure archive. 439 00:21:54,232 --> 00:21:56,992 Give me all the emails that were in my inbox yesterday. 440 00:21:57,577 --> 00:21:57,667 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yep. 441 00:21:58,972 --> 00:22:00,082 W. Curtis Preston: You can't do that. 442 00:22:00,472 --> 00:22:04,252 You can say, give me all the emails that were sent to me in the last 443 00:22:04,252 --> 00:22:06,172 five years or in the last year. 444 00:22:06,622 --> 00:22:11,422 Now, if you've got emails in your inbox that are from six months ago and you 445 00:22:11,422 --> 00:22:14,272 say, give me all the emails from the last month, you're gonna get all the 446 00:22:14,272 --> 00:22:17,242 emails from the last month, including all the ones that you've deleted. 447 00:22:17,587 --> 00:22:17,917 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yep. 448 00:22:19,177 --> 00:22:21,997 W. Curtis Preston: Um, and if, if you do it, you know, for the last, 449 00:22:21,997 --> 00:22:25,027 and, and if you've got emails that are in your inbox that you're keeping 450 00:22:25,027 --> 00:22:28,567 around, you know, a lot of people keep mail emails from forever, right? 451 00:22:28,687 --> 00:22:28,927 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Not. 452 00:22:29,992 --> 00:22:30,232 I'm an 453 00:22:30,307 --> 00:22:33,757 W. Curtis Preston: And if you owe your inbox zero, you know, whatever, 454 00:22:34,327 --> 00:22:37,657 uh, I'm like inbox 4k, but whatever. 455 00:22:38,017 --> 00:22:45,277 So, um, the um, You, you can, you, you, again, assuming it's a pure 456 00:22:45,277 --> 00:22:50,887 archive product, you cannot restore, you cannot do a point in time restore 457 00:22:51,052 --> 00:22:51,472 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yep. 458 00:22:51,937 --> 00:22:53,047 W. Curtis Preston: of your inbox. 459 00:22:53,257 --> 00:22:59,857 And also many archive systems can't put the folders back, right? 460 00:22:59,862 --> 00:23:01,627 Because again, it's not worried about that. 461 00:23:01,627 --> 00:23:02,677 It's not it's purpose. 462 00:23:02,677 --> 00:23:07,627 It's purpose is to be able to find the one email where Prasanna said naughty words, 463 00:23:07,852 --> 00:23:08,152 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 464 00:23:08,662 --> 00:23:12,232 I, I, I think we should highlight, I think we should drill a little bit 465 00:23:12,237 --> 00:23:15,172 deeper for folks point in time, right? 466 00:23:15,172 --> 00:23:17,812 I think that's sometimes not understood. 467 00:23:17,817 --> 00:23:19,282 Do you wanna sort of walk through 468 00:23:19,297 --> 00:23:19,477 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah. 469 00:23:19,482 --> 00:23:22,117 Well, it's last week we talked about backup. 470 00:23:22,267 --> 00:23:23,587 Backup is to restore something. 471 00:23:23,587 --> 00:23:25,057 Two, a single point in time. 472 00:23:25,747 --> 00:23:26,587 That's all we're saying. 473 00:23:27,187 --> 00:23:33,457 When you do a restore, remember I said you do the, let me just, uh, what did I say? 474 00:23:33,577 --> 00:23:34,897 I, I've got it here. 475 00:23:35,857 --> 00:23:36,517 Let's see here. 476 00:23:36,847 --> 00:23:38,347 It's right at the end of my. 477 00:23:39,427 --> 00:23:41,107 Here it is a restore. 478 00:23:41,107 --> 00:23:44,287 Returns a single thing to a single point in time. 479 00:23:44,557 --> 00:23:45,247 That's it. 480 00:23:45,772 --> 00:23:45,832 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 481 00:23:46,477 --> 00:23:48,877 W. Curtis Preston: Yes, you can do multiple restores, but each 482 00:23:48,877 --> 00:23:52,837 restore restores a single thing, a single database, a single file, 483 00:23:52,837 --> 00:23:56,287 a single file system, a single server to a single point in time. 484 00:23:56,292 --> 00:23:58,537 I want this server to the way it looked yesterday. 485 00:23:59,197 --> 00:24:04,087 You cannot do a point in time restore, as it's called, to 486 00:24:04,147 --> 00:24:06,787 using a pure archive system. 487 00:24:06,997 --> 00:24:07,327 Okay? 488 00:24:07,477 --> 00:24:10,297 Again, I am well aware that there are products like that 489 00:24:10,297 --> 00:24:11,947 do both with a single copy. 490 00:24:11,947 --> 00:24:13,147 I'm fine with that. 491 00:24:13,657 --> 00:24:14,137 Okay. 492 00:24:14,727 --> 00:24:17,452 , um, it's just a pure archive. 493 00:24:17,572 --> 00:24:20,692 Cannot do a point in time restore, right? 494 00:24:20,692 --> 00:24:22,312 It messes up all the folders. 495 00:24:22,852 --> 00:24:26,932 Um, and more than likely what you will get is way too much stuff to be useful. 496 00:24:27,352 --> 00:24:27,712 Okay. 497 00:24:28,402 --> 00:24:32,542 Um, it also doesn't understand the concept of red and not red, right? 498 00:24:32,572 --> 00:24:34,732 It, it is just gonna put all the, all the emails. 499 00:24:34,972 --> 00:24:35,272 Right. 500 00:24:35,272 --> 00:24:36,022 It doesn't care. 501 00:24:36,112 --> 00:24:36,472 Right. 502 00:24:37,162 --> 00:24:40,342 Um, so that's what I was talking about to serve. 503 00:24:40,372 --> 00:24:41,452 Oh, so there's a third. 504 00:24:43,102 --> 00:24:52,432 A third type of archive is um, uh, an active archive, which is really just, 505 00:24:52,522 --> 00:24:57,652 uh, and we've had guys from the active archive on the podcast where basically 506 00:24:57,652 --> 00:24:59,422 this is the idea that I'm going to keep. 507 00:25:00,692 --> 00:25:02,782 Actively use data in the primary file system. 508 00:25:03,082 --> 00:25:08,242 And I'm gonna keep lesser used data out in this other secondary file system. 509 00:25:08,242 --> 00:25:09,352 Maybe object storage. 510 00:25:09,352 --> 00:25:13,012 Maybe tape, maybe object storage on tape, right? 511 00:25:13,072 --> 00:25:16,942 Maybe S3 or act or um, glacier or whatever. 512 00:25:17,602 --> 00:25:19,792 Um, it's sort of this two tiered 513 00:25:20,047 --> 00:25:21,517 Prasanna Malaiyandi: It's like a tiered file system 514 00:25:21,772 --> 00:25:23,512 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, it's like a tiered file system. 515 00:25:23,692 --> 00:25:26,152 And the idea is that why would you do that? 516 00:25:26,152 --> 00:25:28,252 And cost is really the only. 517 00:25:28,627 --> 00:25:30,067 Um, reason for that. 518 00:25:30,607 --> 00:25:36,457 Um, by moving the, the lesser used data out of the primary file system, 519 00:25:36,457 --> 00:25:38,167 we reduced the size of the file system. 520 00:25:38,167 --> 00:25:41,257 We also reduced the pain it takes to back it up, 521 00:25:41,842 --> 00:25:45,592 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Well, I think another benefit too with those 522 00:25:45,592 --> 00:25:47,542 types of active archive systems is. 523 00:25:48,727 --> 00:25:51,937 Sometimes people don't know what needs to be archived, right? 524 00:25:51,967 --> 00:25:55,627 We all like to think, oh, it's just gonna be based on files or what's most 525 00:25:55,997 --> 00:25:59,617 frequently used, but a lot of times people don't know, and that's been the challenge 526 00:25:59,617 --> 00:26:03,757 with storage systems, which is why primary storage is always like continuously grown. 527 00:26:04,187 --> 00:26:06,137 But now with these techniques, right? 528 00:26:06,137 --> 00:26:08,507 Where to an end user, it's seamless. 529 00:26:08,507 --> 00:26:11,627 The fact that data is moving off to archive storage, 530 00:26:11,627 --> 00:26:13,427 lower cost storage, right? 531 00:26:13,427 --> 00:26:16,607 That's seamless to the end user, but helps the storage admin 532 00:26:16,877 --> 00:26:18,737 save significantly on costs. 533 00:26:18,742 --> 00:26:19,372 W. Curtis Preston: Exactly. 534 00:26:19,612 --> 00:26:19,852 Yeah. 535 00:26:19,852 --> 00:26:23,152 So when they go, when they go to retrieve, again, there's that word when 536 00:26:23,152 --> 00:26:26,212 they go to retrieve a file that hasn't been archived, it just automatically 537 00:26:26,217 --> 00:26:29,182 comes back and it, you know, it just creates, you know, you just get a 538 00:26:29,187 --> 00:26:33,112 little, little hourglass for, you know, a few seconds depending on the size. 539 00:26:33,322 --> 00:26:34,057 You just make sure you train 540 00:26:35,407 --> 00:26:36,067 Prasanna Malaiyandi: The people. 541 00:26:36,142 --> 00:26:38,422 W. Curtis Preston: educate your users so that they know that when 542 00:26:38,422 --> 00:26:40,822 they get that little hourglass, they don't just start rebooting 543 00:26:41,617 --> 00:26:41,827 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah, 544 00:26:42,982 --> 00:26:45,112 W. Curtis Preston: Or if they do, they reboot and they're like, oh, I fixed it. 545 00:26:45,112 --> 00:26:46,342 Because now it's restored. 546 00:26:46,642 --> 00:26:46,882 Right. 547 00:26:46,882 --> 00:26:47,482 Or retrieved. 548 00:26:49,547 --> 00:26:52,012 We wanna talk about the phrase in the definition stored with 549 00:26:52,012 --> 00:26:55,132 additional metadata, a backup. 550 00:26:55,552 --> 00:26:59,182 Typically doesn't have a lot of metadata associated with, other than 551 00:26:59,212 --> 00:27:02,152 name a file, date and directory. 552 00:27:02,302 --> 00:27:02,692 Right. 553 00:27:02,962 --> 00:27:04,642 Prasanna Malaiyandi: the stuff we talked about in the backup episode. 554 00:27:04,972 --> 00:27:06,052 W. Curtis Preston: yeah, exactly. 555 00:27:06,142 --> 00:27:10,072 Um, typically an archive is going to have more metadata. 556 00:27:10,072 --> 00:27:12,682 We talked about some of it already, like project name. 557 00:27:13,642 --> 00:27:16,012 If it's an email archive, it's gonna have a ton of metadata. 558 00:27:16,012 --> 00:27:19,402 It's gonna have the, the, you know, all the metadata associated with the email, 559 00:27:19,402 --> 00:27:22,372 which is like the from and the two and the subject and all of those things. 560 00:27:23,277 --> 00:27:31,272 . Um, and it may have the full text content of the actual, uh, thing, whatever 561 00:27:31,272 --> 00:27:32,752 it is, the email or the document. 562 00:27:33,862 --> 00:27:36,742 Um, and why do you do that with an archive? 563 00:27:36,742 --> 00:27:39,442 And you don't do it with the backup, and that's because of 564 00:27:39,442 --> 00:27:41,182 the way retrieves work, right? 565 00:27:41,182 --> 00:27:47,182 Um, we don't necessarily know what, when or how the thing. 566 00:27:47,212 --> 00:27:50,482 We just know that, you know, there was an email. 567 00:27:50,482 --> 00:27:51,502 I remember seeing an. 568 00:27:52,942 --> 00:27:53,197 Right. 569 00:27:53,557 --> 00:27:59,257 You know, I, I, I, uh, I, I worked in Twitter back in that crazy year 570 00:27:59,257 --> 00:28:03,417 of 2022, and I remember getting an email from the boss at that time. 571 00:28:03,997 --> 00:28:12,157 That said that I had to work long hours and uh, stuff and you know, or click 572 00:28:12,157 --> 00:28:16,297 here by five o'clock or I'm gonna get fired with three months severance. 573 00:28:16,717 --> 00:28:17,767 I remember that email. 574 00:28:17,772 --> 00:28:20,767 I don't remember, I don't remember when it was sent or I don't know 575 00:28:20,767 --> 00:28:22,837 the name of the e It's now 2030. 576 00:28:22,867 --> 00:28:23,427 Right. 577 00:28:23,747 --> 00:28:27,337 And I'm filing a lawsuit about what happened back in 2022. 578 00:28:28,237 --> 00:28:29,227 Uh, but I. 579 00:28:30,017 --> 00:28:34,997 A couple of key phrases in that email, and so I'm gonna search on the full body 580 00:28:34,997 --> 00:28:40,607 of that email, and I very much remember the name of the guy that sent that email. 581 00:28:42,892 --> 00:28:43,792 I don't know what I'm talking about. 582 00:28:43,792 --> 00:28:45,052 I'm just making stuff up here. 583 00:28:45,442 --> 00:28:50,122 Um, so you store a lot of metadata with an archive that you wouldn't 584 00:28:50,122 --> 00:28:51,862 typically store in a backup system. 585 00:28:51,862 --> 00:28:56,152 You don't typically go to a backup person and say, I want you to 586 00:28:56,157 --> 00:29:00,562 restore all the, all the documents that have the word, blah, blah in 587 00:29:00,652 --> 00:29:00,802 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 588 00:29:02,002 --> 00:29:05,452 W. Curtis Preston: You don't do, that's not how backups typically work, right? 589 00:29:05,512 --> 00:29:08,422 Uh, again, there are some backups that go both ways, but generally 590 00:29:08,422 --> 00:29:11,332 speaking, backups, you need the name of the server, the name of the 591 00:29:11,332 --> 00:29:12,292 directory, the name of the file. 592 00:29:12,622 --> 00:29:14,752 Prasanna Malaiyandi: And I think that's a key with archives just 593 00:29:14,752 --> 00:29:19,762 because of how long the data may be sitting in the system, right? 594 00:29:19,762 --> 00:29:21,802 Or it may exist that you need to be able to retrieve from. 595 00:29:23,152 --> 00:29:26,332 Those servers might have come and gone, right? 596 00:29:26,332 --> 00:29:27,802 That initially had that data. 597 00:29:27,802 --> 00:29:30,292 You may not even know what the name of that server was, 598 00:29:30,772 --> 00:29:31,582 W. Curtis Preston: Exactly. 599 00:29:31,792 --> 00:29:32,452 Uh, yeah, 600 00:29:32,572 --> 00:29:36,322 Prasanna Malaiyandi: to find that based on other metadata becomes 601 00:29:36,322 --> 00:29:39,712 critical because you don't care, oh, it was stored on Apollo versus 602 00:29:40,072 --> 00:29:41,482 whatever other server name, right? 603 00:29:41,482 --> 00:29:44,812 You only care, Hey, this is a project I care about, or this 604 00:29:44,812 --> 00:29:46,102 is the information I care. 605 00:29:47,152 --> 00:29:49,392 W. Curtis Preston: ask yourself if you know the name of the exchange 606 00:29:49,397 --> 00:29:50,632 server from seven years ago. 607 00:29:51,307 --> 00:29:51,757 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 608 00:29:51,867 --> 00:29:52,217 No 609 00:29:52,792 --> 00:29:53,212 W. Curtis Preston: No. 610 00:29:53,392 --> 00:29:53,812 Right. 611 00:29:54,082 --> 00:29:57,412 Yeah, so I, I have this from, you know, under what is a retrieve, right? 612 00:29:58,072 --> 00:30:01,432 As mentioned previously, a restore needs the name of a server directory, 613 00:30:01,842 --> 00:30:05,362 database, file system, file name, table name, and actual date that 614 00:30:05,362 --> 00:30:07,222 you want to restore the system too. 615 00:30:07,432 --> 00:30:11,962 When doing a retrieve, you typically have none of that information, right? 616 00:30:12,262 --> 00:30:14,242 You, you, it's so much more vague. 617 00:30:14,332 --> 00:30:19,582 The other thing is quite often a retrieve is for a period of time, 618 00:30:20,212 --> 00:30:23,422 not a single point in time, right? 619 00:30:23,632 --> 00:30:29,182 It is like, gimme all the emails from Elon dot musk 620 00:30:29,707 --> 00:30:30,037 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yep. 621 00:30:30,247 --> 00:30:31,117 For 2022. 622 00:30:31,972 --> 00:30:35,302 W. Curtis Preston: for 2022, uh, period, right? 623 00:30:35,302 --> 00:30:39,802 Give all the emails from the tumultuous time period of October and November. 624 00:30:40,372 --> 00:30:41,752 This has gotta be over. 625 00:30:42,562 --> 00:30:46,792 Like, you can't keep, I don't think he could be this tumultuous for that long. 626 00:30:46,792 --> 00:30:51,142 But anyway, whatever the phrase is, give me all the emails that, that, uh, elon 627 00:30:51,142 --> 00:30:58,912 dot musk twitter.com sent, you know, from October, 2022 until November of 628 00:30:58,912 --> 00:31:02,272 2023, when he sold it for $15 billion. 629 00:31:04,252 --> 00:31:04,702 Right. 630 00:31:05,092 --> 00:31:11,032 Uh, because I'm an investor or something and I'm going to, you know, sue 'em. 631 00:31:11,032 --> 00:31:11,033 Right. 632 00:31:11,652 --> 00:31:13,067 A retrieve looks like that. 633 00:31:13,127 --> 00:31:13,487 Right? 634 00:31:13,492 --> 00:31:17,117 That's a very specific, you know, gimme a single person to emails. 635 00:31:17,122 --> 00:31:19,547 All the emails they ever sent for three years. 636 00:31:20,267 --> 00:31:21,977 Um, I, 637 00:31:22,397 --> 00:31:22,697 Prasanna Malaiyandi: right? 638 00:31:22,697 --> 00:31:23,417 You have 639 00:31:23,567 --> 00:31:24,887 W. Curtis Preston: it it is e. 640 00:31:25,077 --> 00:31:25,567 Yeah. 641 00:31:26,987 --> 00:31:30,527 That is the number one reason that archives are used is e-discovery. 642 00:31:31,307 --> 00:31:33,527 And I'll give you a a perfect example. 643 00:31:33,527 --> 00:31:37,697 I worked as a consultant on a project where we had a bank. 644 00:31:39,482 --> 00:31:43,412 It was a, it was a, not a bank, but a, like a financial institution, 645 00:31:43,412 --> 00:31:45,152 like an invest investment type place. 646 00:31:45,152 --> 00:31:50,282 And they got sued and they wanted the, the, um, the plaintiff was requesting an 647 00:31:50,282 --> 00:31:56,012 e-discovery request of all the emails in the last three years, and they didn't have 648 00:31:56,017 --> 00:32:02,042 an archive system, so what they had to do was they had to, they had a weekly full 649 00:32:02,042 --> 00:32:07,592 backup of exchange, and so they had to do a restorative exchange to January 1st. 650 00:32:08,512 --> 00:32:08,777 Right? 651 00:32:08,867 --> 00:32:09,767 Alternate server. 652 00:32:10,247 --> 00:32:13,007 Alternate server exchange, restore, which for the record 653 00:32:13,007 --> 00:32:14,627 is not the easiest thing to do. 654 00:32:15,227 --> 00:32:17,837 And you have to make sure that that exchange server doesn't come to life. 655 00:32:17,837 --> 00:32:20,837 And start sending mail, right? 656 00:32:21,227 --> 00:32:23,657 Uh, and start deleting mail cuz you know Right. 657 00:32:23,717 --> 00:32:24,857 Retention periods and all that. 658 00:32:26,057 --> 00:32:32,267 Uh, so you, you do an alternate server, alternate time, restore of exchange. 659 00:32:32,417 --> 00:32:39,287 You do the search, you create a PST file, and then you do a restore for January 8th, 660 00:32:40,397 --> 00:32:42,347 and then you do all that all over again. 661 00:32:42,437 --> 00:32:46,337 Then you do a restore for January 15th, and you do that all over again cuz they 662 00:32:46,337 --> 00:32:49,067 had every for 52 weeks, times three years. 663 00:32:49,182 --> 00:32:50,092 Prasanna Malaiyandi: oh my gosh, 664 00:32:50,387 --> 00:32:52,277 W. Curtis Preston: So a hundred and what is that? 665 00:32:52,727 --> 00:32:55,307 It's 156 restores. 666 00:32:55,617 --> 00:32:58,287 This was a huge project. 667 00:32:58,827 --> 00:33:06,387 We had a team of like 15 expensive consultants doing restores around 668 00:33:06,387 --> 00:33:09,387 the clock for like three months. 669 00:33:10,107 --> 00:33:10,377 Right. 670 00:33:10,377 --> 00:33:11,817 Because you also have limited resort. 671 00:33:11,822 --> 00:33:15,297 This was, this is pre-cloud, so we couldn't do, we couldn't do this. 672 00:33:15,507 --> 00:33:17,577 Well, it was also limited tape, right? 673 00:33:17,577 --> 00:33:18,177 It was tape. 674 00:33:18,447 --> 00:33:20,397 So you, you there was only so many tape drives. 675 00:33:20,397 --> 00:33:26,367 So we could only do as many restores as we had tape drives and um, you 676 00:33:26,367 --> 00:33:28,197 know, and we're all goo gooing it. 677 00:33:28,257 --> 00:33:28,767 There you go. 678 00:33:28,767 --> 00:33:29,637 There's another verb. 679 00:33:29,637 --> 00:33:30,207 Me, verbing. 680 00:33:30,422 --> 00:33:31,482 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Eh, using the 681 00:33:31,647 --> 00:33:34,917 W. Curtis Preston: this in a, in a, in using a gooey, by the way that that phrase 682 00:33:34,917 --> 00:33:36,627 dates me, no one calls it a gooey anymore. 683 00:33:37,737 --> 00:33:42,747 And long story short, I remember that that thing cost a client 684 00:33:42,752 --> 00:33:44,067 a couple of million bucks. 685 00:33:44,352 --> 00:33:44,622 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yep. 686 00:33:44,802 --> 00:33:47,322 Oh, I could imagine with that many people, yeah. 687 00:33:47,547 --> 00:33:47,907 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah. 688 00:33:48,237 --> 00:33:48,247 Yeah. 689 00:33:48,252 --> 00:33:51,372 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Where they could have probably bought an email archive solution 690 00:33:51,747 --> 00:33:52,437 W. Curtis Preston: If they had had 691 00:33:52,662 --> 00:33:53,052 Prasanna Malaiyandi: less. 692 00:33:53,847 --> 00:33:55,827 W. Curtis Preston: they could have done a single retrieve. 693 00:33:55,977 --> 00:33:58,557 Give me all emails with these phrases in it. 694 00:33:59,442 --> 00:34:00,792 For the last three years. 695 00:34:00,882 --> 00:34:01,572 Go. 696 00:34:02,742 --> 00:34:03,162 There's your 697 00:34:03,252 --> 00:34:06,162 Prasanna Malaiyandi: they purchase an email archive solution after that? 698 00:34:06,612 --> 00:34:07,602 W. Curtis Preston: Yes, they did. 699 00:34:08,052 --> 00:34:08,502 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Okay, 700 00:34:09,042 --> 00:34:09,522 W. Curtis Preston: Right. 701 00:34:09,552 --> 00:34:11,112 Prasanna Malaiyandi: so people learn, which is good. 702 00:34:11,712 --> 00:34:12,882 W. Curtis Preston: yeah, exactly. 703 00:34:13,512 --> 00:34:20,532 Um, so, um, there, there's a, see if I was looking forward in the chapter 704 00:34:20,532 --> 00:34:27,252 here, but here, here's another way I like, this is a phrase that I coin. 705 00:34:28,092 --> 00:34:32,112 Uh, no one uses it, but , this is a phrase that I coined. 706 00:34:33,192 --> 00:34:40,872 A backup is the secondary copy of primary data, and an archive is 707 00:34:40,872 --> 00:34:43,092 the primary copy of secondary data. 708 00:34:43,977 --> 00:34:45,537 Prasanna Malaiyandi: It's typically the only copy, 709 00:34:46,242 --> 00:34:46,732 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah. 710 00:34:47,637 --> 00:34:47,907 Prasanna Malaiyandi: right? 711 00:34:48,822 --> 00:34:50,262 W. Curtis Preston: Don't mess with my sentence, man. 712 00:34:50,922 --> 00:34:55,662 Um, . But so backup is the secondary copy of primary data, meaning 713 00:34:55,667 --> 00:35:00,372 it's the other copy of the really important actively used data. 714 00:35:00,522 --> 00:35:03,077 And then archive is the primary copy. 715 00:35:03,107 --> 00:35:03,807 Often the only. 716 00:35:04,862 --> 00:35:08,162 Of sec of data that has secondary value. 717 00:35:08,552 --> 00:35:08,912 Right? 718 00:35:09,122 --> 00:35:11,192 So another copy of the email. 719 00:35:11,522 --> 00:35:15,962 But in most ca so email archive is probably the most used type of archive. 720 00:35:15,967 --> 00:35:20,732 The other type, the active archive and the sort of old school archive. 721 00:35:21,392 --> 00:35:25,412 Uh, in fact, I remember with, with with Networker that if you selected 722 00:35:25,412 --> 00:35:28,832 a bunch of files and then you said archive them, once the archive was 723 00:35:28,832 --> 00:35:31,952 successful and it made two copies, it would actually delete the primary. 724 00:35:32,222 --> 00:35:32,642 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yep. 725 00:35:34,212 --> 00:35:34,213 Yeah. 726 00:35:34,218 --> 00:35:36,062 Because at that point, that's the purpose, right? 727 00:35:36,062 --> 00:35:38,192 Because you're archiving for some reason, 728 00:35:39,317 --> 00:35:39,707 W. Curtis Preston: right. 729 00:35:40,022 --> 00:35:41,732 Prasanna Malaiyandi: it's no longer needed on the primary. 730 00:35:43,157 --> 00:35:43,637 W. Curtis Preston: Right. 731 00:35:44,447 --> 00:35:49,967 Um, we, um, we actually had, you know, there's actually chapter 10 in the book 732 00:35:49,967 --> 00:35:53,507 where we actually go into more detail into different types of archives. 733 00:35:54,017 --> 00:35:56,417 That was the chapter that, uh, Mr. 734 00:35:56,417 --> 00:36:01,547 Fri wrote who, um, is a fan of the pod and, and a guest of 735 00:36:01,547 --> 00:36:03,587 the pod we might have him on. 736 00:36:03,587 --> 00:36:04,067 When we get, 737 00:36:04,112 --> 00:36:05,342 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Would we talk about that chapter? 738 00:36:05,412 --> 00:36:05,902 Yeah. 739 00:36:06,077 --> 00:36:06,527 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah. 740 00:36:06,587 --> 00:36:06,977 Yeah. 741 00:36:07,637 --> 00:36:15,167 Um, but I, so I, I just, again, going back to the backup and the archive, um, 742 00:36:15,767 --> 00:36:17,807 can I use a backup to do eDiscovery? 743 00:36:17,867 --> 00:36:22,217 I, I, I just gave you a story of, the answer is yes, but it will 744 00:36:22,217 --> 00:36:25,877 be one of the most painful and expensive processes you've ever done. 745 00:36:26,552 --> 00:36:28,082 Prasanna Malaiyandi: It wasn't built for that purpose. 746 00:36:28,307 --> 00:36:32,177 W. Curtis Preston: It wasn't built for that purpose, you know, a. 747 00:36:34,607 --> 00:36:35,377 Prasanna Malaiyandi: like apo. 748 00:36:36,047 --> 00:36:36,377 It's like 749 00:36:36,542 --> 00:36:38,522 W. Curtis Preston: It's like . It's like a. 750 00:36:39,317 --> 00:36:41,177 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Aor, right? 751 00:36:41,237 --> 00:36:42,647 A fork is good for one thing. 752 00:36:42,707 --> 00:36:45,407 A spoon is good for different purposes. 753 00:36:46,217 --> 00:36:48,347 Apo not really great for either purpose. 754 00:36:48,647 --> 00:36:50,207 It gets by, but 755 00:36:50,297 --> 00:36:53,777 W. Curtis Preston: it's like the, one of the most worthless things on the 756 00:36:53,777 --> 00:36:55,457 planet, I have to say, is the sports. 757 00:36:55,697 --> 00:36:59,927 Whoever invented, I hope you got millions of dollars, but I hate sports. 758 00:37:00,257 --> 00:37:02,627 You know, the only time I see sports, you know, who does sports? 759 00:37:02,867 --> 00:37:03,497 Sports? 760 00:37:04,127 --> 00:37:04,877 Kfc. 761 00:37:05,162 --> 00:37:05,822 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Hmm, 762 00:37:06,347 --> 00:37:09,767 W. Curtis Preston: puts sports in their, um, in their food. 763 00:37:09,977 --> 00:37:11,117 I don't know why I would know that. 764 00:37:11,342 --> 00:37:14,612 Prasanna Malaiyandi: for like mac and cheese and mashed potatoes and stuff. 765 00:37:14,882 --> 00:37:15,362 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah. 766 00:37:15,422 --> 00:37:15,932 Yeah. 767 00:37:16,082 --> 00:37:19,442 Um, anyway, the, the, yeah. 768 00:37:19,442 --> 00:37:20,672 Ex exactly. 769 00:37:20,912 --> 00:37:28,502 It's, it's, it's just, um, like if you've never tried to do any, 770 00:37:29,192 --> 00:37:32,192 because the thing is with an e-discovery request, I don't know the 771 00:37:32,192 --> 00:37:33,782 server, I don't know the directory. 772 00:37:33,782 --> 00:37:35,492 I don't know the name of the file. 773 00:37:35,882 --> 00:37:38,882 I know that it's files owned. 774 00:37:40,037 --> 00:37:45,167 This person files or emails with this content in them, right? 775 00:37:45,467 --> 00:37:49,487 The company's been accused of, uh, an un what's it called? 776 00:37:49,487 --> 00:37:50,897 The, a hostile work environment. 777 00:37:51,527 --> 00:37:55,667 There, there was a, there was a person in, in Department X 778 00:37:56,087 --> 00:37:59,147 that, um, used a particular word. 779 00:38:00,187 --> 00:38:01,457 He used it every other. 780 00:38:01,817 --> 00:38:02,777 Every other word. 781 00:38:02,777 --> 00:38:05,447 And even though he was asked to not use that word, he used that 782 00:38:05,447 --> 00:38:09,047 word all the time, and he used it in emails and, and his bosses knew 783 00:38:09,047 --> 00:38:11,837 it, and they, they wouldn't stop. 784 00:38:12,377 --> 00:38:16,607 And so you prove that with an email archive, with a e-discovery request. 785 00:38:16,612 --> 00:38:23,417 You ask for all the emails from that person containing that word, right? 786 00:38:23,807 --> 00:38:26,777 And then you look and, and then you look at that and you're like, look, 787 00:38:26,782 --> 00:38:29,337 look at all these emails where, hi, hi. 788 00:38:29,337 --> 00:38:37,022 His boss was, His boss never once let's also search the boss's email to, you know? 789 00:38:37,052 --> 00:38:37,442 Right. 790 00:38:38,222 --> 00:38:41,222 You could basically, that's the purpose of what a discovery request 791 00:38:41,357 --> 00:38:42,647 Prasanna Malaiyandi: And you can't say I, 792 00:38:42,722 --> 00:38:45,032 W. Curtis Preston: world you would do that with a backup system. 793 00:38:45,257 --> 00:38:47,417 Prasanna Malaiyandi: And you can't say, I'm not gonna do this because 794 00:38:47,417 --> 00:38:48,767 we don't have the technical ability. 795 00:38:49,472 --> 00:38:50,372 W. Curtis Preston: You can't do that. 796 00:38:50,612 --> 00:38:51,092 Right. 797 00:38:51,152 --> 00:38:51,482 Yeah. 798 00:38:51,722 --> 00:38:56,097 That, that is, that is a surefire way to have What, so we talked about this 799 00:38:56,102 --> 00:39:01,587 with the interview of the, um, um, with Joseph Dehner, the, the lawyer. 800 00:39:01,677 --> 00:39:05,517 Uh, we talked about this concept of adverse inference. 801 00:39:05,787 --> 00:39:15,507 So it, it, it means that the judge in charge of a case will infer from your 802 00:39:15,507 --> 00:39:18,717 behavior, something adverse to your case. 803 00:39:19,227 --> 00:39:24,687 The judge will say, they say they don't have it or that they can't get it. 804 00:39:25,647 --> 00:39:29,727 Um, nobody could be that incompetent, et cetera. 805 00:39:29,732 --> 00:39:31,377 They're trying to hide something. 806 00:39:31,647 --> 00:39:37,467 So whatever the plaintiff says they were doing, just assumed that they were doing 807 00:39:37,467 --> 00:39:39,957 it and, and, and move forward accordingly. 808 00:39:40,287 --> 00:39:43,467 Uh, the, the, the famous case and I talked about it on that podcast. 809 00:39:44,217 --> 00:39:46,317 There was a famous case, a well known. 810 00:39:47,742 --> 00:39:52,662 Uh, financial trading firm, and they were sued and they had 811 00:39:52,962 --> 00:39:54,822 used their backups as archives. 812 00:39:55,032 --> 00:39:56,802 Let this be a lesson to you kids. 813 00:39:57,102 --> 00:40:01,242 They had used their backups as their archives, and they had changed 814 00:40:01,242 --> 00:40:03,342 email systems multiple times. 815 00:40:03,347 --> 00:40:05,472 They had changed backup systems multiple times. 816 00:40:05,742 --> 00:40:11,382 They had changed tape system multiple times, and so the restore was like a much 817 00:40:11,382 --> 00:40:15,132 more complicated version of the one that I, that I talked about a few minutes. 818 00:40:17,022 --> 00:40:21,132 And they also, you know, their, their tape storage system wasn't the best either. 819 00:40:21,702 --> 00:40:27,852 And so they had taken an inordinately amount of, an inordinate amount of time 820 00:40:28,272 --> 00:40:28,592 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Mm-hmm. 821 00:40:28,602 --> 00:40:31,662 W. Curtis Preston: do the retrieve, and then they eventually, there's 822 00:40:31,662 --> 00:40:34,542 a process that you certify that the retrieve is finished. 823 00:40:34,542 --> 00:40:38,472 They did that process and then they came back and they said, 824 00:40:38,622 --> 00:40:40,522 crap, we found another box of tape. 825 00:40:41,107 --> 00:40:41,262 , right? 826 00:40:42,192 --> 00:40:44,832 The judge was like, you know what, you know I'm done with you people. 827 00:40:44,832 --> 00:40:51,042 Nobody can be this bad at it, and backups and archives and stuff. 828 00:40:51,252 --> 00:40:54,432 And so he's like, I'm issuing an adverse inference instruction to the 829 00:40:54,432 --> 00:40:59,382 jury, which basically said, you know, you whatever, whatever the plaintiff 830 00:40:59,382 --> 00:41:03,762 said is on the tapes it's on the tapes because I, we got, we gotta move on. 831 00:41:04,152 --> 00:41:05,052 And so they lost. 832 00:41:05,052 --> 00:41:07,542 It was like a 2 billion lawsuit. 833 00:41:07,632 --> 00:41:08,622 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Oh my gosh. 834 00:41:09,252 --> 00:41:11,847 W. Curtis Preston: um, because they, because they 835 00:41:11,847 --> 00:41:13,617 use their backups as archives. 836 00:41:13,647 --> 00:41:17,517 This is why I make such a big deal over the difference 837 00:41:17,517 --> 00:41:18,897 between backups and archives. 838 00:41:18,897 --> 00:41:25,437 It's not just cause I am, you know, a pedantic individual, which I am. 839 00:41:26,007 --> 00:41:26,697 Right. 840 00:41:26,817 --> 00:41:30,387 Uh, you know, we've, I've given you some other examples like golf 841 00:41:30,387 --> 00:41:33,447 and, and nauseous and nauseated. 842 00:41:34,467 --> 00:41:35,937 Uh, what was it? 843 00:41:35,937 --> 00:41:36,597 Deceased and 844 00:41:36,597 --> 00:41:37,257 decedent. 845 00:41:37,527 --> 00:41:39,027 These are all really important words. 846 00:41:39,027 --> 00:41:40,077 Words mean things. 847 00:41:41,187 --> 00:41:47,667 Um, and, um, but it, it, you know, it's sort of like the 848 00:41:47,667 --> 00:41:50,337 joke of like, let's eat grandma. 849 00:41:50,982 --> 00:41:53,412 Let's eat grandma, right? 850 00:41:53,412 --> 00:41:57,642 Commas, you know, comma saves commas, save lives, right? 851 00:41:57,702 --> 00:42:02,682 Um, words matter, and it's important to understand the difference 852 00:42:02,682 --> 00:42:03,732 between backup and archive. 853 00:42:03,762 --> 00:42:08,052 And I'm fine if you produce a product that does both things. 854 00:42:08,262 --> 00:42:10,152 Just make sure you do both things. 855 00:42:10,752 --> 00:42:12,372 Just don't use that phrase. 856 00:42:12,372 --> 00:42:14,022 We're gonna archive a backup. 857 00:42:15,852 --> 00:42:17,112 It hurts my ears. 858 00:42:18,102 --> 00:42:18,612 Right? 859 00:42:18,852 --> 00:42:21,492 Just like it hurts my ears when you say you're going golfing. 860 00:42:21,492 --> 00:42:24,042 But that one I, I 861 00:42:24,147 --> 00:42:24,777 Prasanna Malaiyandi: You can't do anything 862 00:42:24,792 --> 00:42:27,332 W. Curtis Preston: gave that argument of Yeah, I can't do anything about it. 863 00:42:27,372 --> 00:42:28,842 I don't have a golfing podcast. 864 00:42:28,932 --> 00:42:29,502 Oh, I'm sorry. 865 00:42:29,652 --> 00:42:31,032 A golf podcast. 866 00:42:32,927 --> 00:42:33,557 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Oh, Curtis 867 00:42:33,822 --> 00:42:34,482 W. Curtis Preston: podcast. 868 00:42:35,772 --> 00:42:37,812 You got any final thoughts, Mr. 869 00:42:37,812 --> 00:42:38,232 P? 870 00:42:39,027 --> 00:42:39,447 Prasanna Malaiyandi: duh. 871 00:42:40,017 --> 00:42:40,847 No, just. 872 00:42:41,817 --> 00:42:44,967 Like you said, just be aware that they are different. 873 00:42:45,117 --> 00:42:46,317 Archive and backup. 874 00:42:46,977 --> 00:42:48,417 Know the right context. 875 00:42:48,417 --> 00:42:52,107 And I think the other question is also, I know we talked about this 876 00:42:52,107 --> 00:42:53,967 in organizations chapter, right? 877 00:42:53,972 --> 00:42:57,747 But understand what the requirements are to help you decide. 878 00:42:57,747 --> 00:43:00,747 Do you need an archive system or a backup system, or both? 879 00:43:02,282 --> 00:43:03,932 W. Curtis Preston: Well, if you live in America, I would 880 00:43:03,932 --> 00:43:05,092 argue strongly that you need. 881 00:43:05,957 --> 00:43:06,192 , right? 882 00:43:06,642 --> 00:43:09,672 Because we live in the most litigious society in the history. 883 00:43:09,672 --> 00:43:13,332 I don't know what it's like over there, you know, in other countries. 884 00:43:13,362 --> 00:43:16,662 I know Joe talked a little bit about the differences in eDiscovery that we have 885 00:43:16,662 --> 00:43:18,942 sort of the strongest e-discovery laws. 886 00:43:20,082 --> 00:43:23,232 Um, you know, you're gonna get sued for something. 887 00:43:23,352 --> 00:43:29,982 And the cost of a, the cost of doing a retrieve from a backup, uh, is, is. 888 00:43:30,897 --> 00:43:31,767 Ridiculous. 889 00:43:32,847 --> 00:43:37,797 So, um, don't use your backup system as an archive and honestly, don't use 890 00:43:37,797 --> 00:43:39,477 your archive system as a backup, right? 891 00:43:39,482 --> 00:43:42,237 Like Google Vault is an archive, not a backup. 892 00:43:42,837 --> 00:43:46,767 You're gonna be very unhappy if you lose your whole inbox because of a 893 00:43:46,767 --> 00:43:50,097 ransomware attack, and then you go to Google Vault and they can give you all the 894 00:43:50,097 --> 00:43:52,047 emails you had for the last five years. 895 00:43:52,737 --> 00:43:54,087 That is not what you're looking for. 896 00:43:54,297 --> 00:43:54,967 Prasanna Malaiyandi: exactly. 897 00:43:56,127 --> 00:43:56,547 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah. 898 00:43:56,937 --> 00:43:57,447 All right. 899 00:43:58,692 --> 00:44:01,062 Hopefully you learned a thing or two. 900 00:44:01,062 --> 00:44:01,872 And again, you know what? 901 00:44:01,872 --> 00:44:05,712 If you wanna argue with me, reach out to me w Curtis Preston gmail, 902 00:44:05,712 --> 00:44:07,452 or at WC preston on Twitter. 903 00:44:07,512 --> 00:44:08,532 I'll tell you why you're wrong. 904 00:44:09,252 --> 00:44:14,649 Um, , remember to subscribe so that you can restore it all.