You are listening to the Driving Confidence Podcast for drivers who want to be calm and confident on the road. We will be sharing tips, stories, and advice to beat driving nerves and anxiety and build your driving confidence whether you are just starting out as a learner or have had your driving license for years. If you want to transform how you've. Feel about driving this podcast is for you.

We are delighted to be back with the first of our special podcast episodes as opposed to our running in seasons. for this episode, we're delighted to welcome on Dr. Victoria Crow. So thank you for joining us.

Thank you very much. Thank you for having me here.

Vicki, you like to introduce yourself to everybody listening?

Yes. Thank you very much. So my name's Dr. Vicki Crow. I am a CEO and one of the co-founders of EII Solutions. We are a spin out company from Nottingham Trent University, where our focus is really on getting the academic tools that we created at the university. And since at the company. Into the real world where we can make a difference. So translating that academic research into kind of operational processes and products for, end users to basically improve road safety and basically make the road safer for all road users. Um, we have a particular focus on, creating hazard perception tools that are tailored to the type of vehicle and type of job that a driver's doing, but also tools that look into. Assessing the levels of risk that drivers are willing to take whilst driving and also creating training modules that are based on academic research, academic theory, psychological theory, um, and psychological principles. So I am at heart a traffic and. What you call a trafficking transport psychologist, which really is just a fancy way of saying we take psychology and psychological theory and apply it to basically making the road safer. So yeah, core message is that we like to make people safer on the roads.

Yeah. I couldn't have phrased that better myself, even if I was reading it. It's just like, yeah, that's, that's it. That's it in a nutshell. Yeah. That's why we've. You to introduce yourself rather than us do it for you.

I love.

I was never gonna get through that in one take, was I never, I think that's so important as well, isn't it? Because that idea of there's research going on all the time in the area of transport road safety. But that's the bit that's important that, okay, what do we do with that research? How do we take that research and turn that into something that can be useful for people on the road and improve road safety? So such an important role there. Yeah. So I, I suppose my first question is, what was the reason you chose motorway driving? to sort of like really. Target the audience that we deal with, which is like the full license holder. What was the reasoning behind doing motorway driving?

Ah, so I guess there's a number of reasons. I guess first of all, it's probably the, I wanna say the pragmatic reason, logistic reason was that obviously we tackle, behavioral scientists essentially want to tackle behavior. we have. Primarily focused kind of on hazard perception. A lot of that is generally based, not necessarily, I mean, on motorway driving. So for example, the DVSA has a perception test that we know was brought in in 2002, doesn't do clips that are filmed or they're not filmed at CGI now, but it doesn't present has eclipse that are based on the motorway. It typically is sort of your standard non-motor way driving, urban, suburban and a bit of rural driving where they present hazards. And actually there isn't anything that sort of shows the types of hazards that, um, a road user might encounter whilst on the motorway, which when you're learning to drive, it's one of the things I know that learner drivers can now go on the motorway, but it is one of those things that perhaps potentially they get a bit of anxiety about. So that was sort has always been, I guess, in the back of our minds. And also. At the time whilst thinking about that, there was a call, so the project was in the first instance, a grant funded project, and it was based around, looking at how to make people or how to make the strategic road network safer. So motorways and your a road. And with that opportunity kind of being presented and as sort of in the back of our mind thinking, okay, so how can we kind of marry the two? We want to apply our hazard perception stuff and, and there's a call for kind of making motorway driving safer. So the two kind of fitted together quite nicely. And you know, one of the things that we looked at, and I think this is a really important thing for all sort of themes around making the road safer, is that there are lots of different solutions out there to reduce collisions. Now, a lot of them are aimed at aspects of the safer systems approach that are indirectly linked to driver behavior and the driver essentially. So for example, on the motorway, there's lots of different things. The such as road design that might nudge behavior and things that can enhance safety features. For example, having speed limit in cars. Um, and while they indirectly make the driver safer, actually interventions that target basically the pillar of the safe system that directly connects human behavior. To kind of a safer road use it is often overlooked. So what we really wanted to do was do something that wasn't necessarily sort of like, you know, putting a sensor here, making, you know, putting a bollard in to encourage people not to do a U-turn, things like that. We actually wanted to do something that really was the kind of core aspect of making the driver safer. Safer. And you know, we also know as well that. Motorways and on the strategic road network, um, they are relatively safe. However, when something does happen, it does tend to be more newsworthy. And the knock on of effect is that it generally puts people off going on the way to motorway. And this is not necessarily just just your learners, this is, you know, your everyday drivers, people that have passed their driving test. There's a recent survey that showed that. 8 million drivers actively avoid the motorway, which ultimately means that they're driving on other roads. So they might get then more likely to drive on the rural roads where it is actually more dangerous to drive on the rural roads. So we, we wanted to kind of be able to tackle something that would not necessarily just be for learners. Obviously we know that learners perhaps are a bit anxious about going on the motorway, but there's also people that pass the test that are. Nervous about going on the motorway. So it was, another thing about this was really to create something that would make them safer, but also kind of tackle that perception of safety on the motorway as well. So that's a lot of reasons why we did it. I'm sorry. There's a fair few strategically, and we had this kind of idea already, and it was just about timings and how it kind of came about really.

Wow. Yeah. you are right what it does, there isn't very much out there for full license holders. there's this assumption that somebody passes their test and then they go out and they gain driving experience but. Like you say, there's the research center. All these people who are avoiding the motorway driving. We know anecdotally from the people who get in touch with us for help around nerves and anxiety. This is mainly for license holders that we speak to. We don't so often work with learner drivers. We work with driving instructors, working with nervous learners, but our direct contact with drivers is. Generally full license holders, um, motorway driving comes up again and again and again for a variety of reasons. So what we haven't said, what we didn't say right at the very beginning is that you've created EC2 solutions. As part of that research has created a motorway anxiety course. Um, what that does is it really helps fill in the knowledge and understanding gaps that somebody might have. The things the full license holders won't have learned on lessons because motorway driving is. Is a relatively new addition for learner drivers. So the majority of all license holders out there won't have been taught motorway driving. They will have sort of muddled along. Picked it up as best they can, and maybe that's the reason that they're avoiding. And I think your course fills that in beautifully. Yeah, no, it definitely does. And it's, it's something that's needed, I think. 'cause you mentioned there 8 million people. It's, it suggests 8 million people that avoid motorways.

Mm-hmm.

That's, that's, that's a big figure, isn't it?

Yeah. And there's, I'm, like I say, there's various reasons why they avoid the motorways, and that was part of, part of the project in fact, was to kind of look at some of those reasons and what were the kind of top concerns, I guess, of like why people don't go on the motorways and. I think as part of the project, one of the first things we did in the, the very beginning phase of it was to do a survey of a thousand drivers and that really brought out the top things that they were anxious about or people are anxious about. one probably being unsurprisingly, is kind. Going around HGV is, we know this one comes up time and time again, um, because it is quite an unknown to them. They are having to navigate around a relatively large vehicle that has got a lot of blind spots. and it does make drivers anxious. So unsurprisingly, that was one of the, the key ones that you can imagine, and I think a lot. Another one that obviously came up with is merging and leaving, uh, getting on and off the motorway. And I guess you, you will know that from your own anecdotal and from your own people that you train, that that is one of the top concerns that people have is that kind of getting on and. But, that was one of the sort of first things that we did in the project was to identify the top kind of reasons why people, were anxious and sort of nervous on the motorway. And that gave us the core six modules that that does form, the course. Obviously there are other things, other reasons out there, but, you know, we could only, we could only fit so many in. and there is quite a fair amount of overlap between the modules anyway. It's not a mod, let's say we've got the module up. It's not just on, uh, HG vs. Um, or navigating random. It's called, you know, sharing the Road. So it's around other road users as well. So there is, um, but even in there, there will be advice on overtaking, which is one of the other modules that we have. So there is a fair amount of overlap between all of these different ones. But the core kind of thing was, was to try and create six modules or, or a number of modules. That were to tackle the key concerns that people had, and that was really the start of the project was by putting out that big survey to do that.

I've watched most of them. I've not watched all of them, and I just think it's a fantastic way to just bridge that gap from thinking about doing it to actually doing it. And the videos in there are, they're really good, aren't they? They, they are really, really good.

Yes. Ah, well, thank you. They are, they are very good. And I think, one of the real benefits of being able to do it because the course can be done, um, using obviously a VR headset, but it also can be done online where we kind of. I wanted to say simulate the head movements, but if the, um, driving instruct? Well, the, the, the expert driver. So each module basically, I just tell you a bit about it, has got, our expert driver who is a. Driving the car and demonstrating best practice. So it's a behavioral, uh, modeling. Basically he's sort of showing you what you should be doing and you are sat, so you virtually are sat in the passenger seat watching what? Our driver, expert driver. So our expert driver is Ollie Taylor of people know who he is. I'm sure they all do. Um,

sure lots, lots of people will know him from, from the honest truth and certainly any driving instructor listening will definitely know Ollie.

He's a very, very nice guy and he is very knowledgeable and he is also, ex-police. So he has got a lot of experience with being able to navigate, um, challenging road situations. So by watching him, he's demonstrating that best practice. so yeah, it is a behavioral modeling technique from social learning theory by watching someone that's kind of demonstrating the best practice, it helps you learn what you should be doing. So you are, you are sat there watching him drive and he's giving, a verbal commentary on what he's doing and why he's doing it. again, that is a technique that is used in police training. we wouldn't recommend that anyone. Do that themselves because it is generally a secondary task. So if you are giving a verbal commentary, you are doing a secondary task and you might miss things yourself. However, he is highly trained in that. So, that was the reasons we were able to do it with him, but that was the reasons we chose someone that is trained in doing it. However, evidence just suggests that by listening to an expert commentary, it does improve your skills at doing things like has a perception. So that's one of the reasons we use that. But you're watching him do this and at certain points the camera will switch to outside of the vehicle as well. And you can then sort of see 360 degrees around the car. So the reason we put it outside the vehicle was because it gives a better viewpoint. So you can really take a good look around and see what's going on. Um, but the whole point of that was to be able to provide the user with that safe space to do it in. So like you say, people think about, oh, I'm nervous about doing that on the motorway, and don't necessarily want to do it, but by providing them with. That place that they can see it for themselves but not actually be doing it. They are kind of getting that, like say basically safe place to see it. and. Almost giving them a one-to-one kind of training because Ollie's there narrating it, telling 'em what they should be doing, what they shouldn't be doing in that situation. So yeah, it's, it's a really, it's a really great one for people to see before they actually do it. I mean, for example, people that may not have driven on the motorway for a long time, they may go on it, go in it and be like, oh, actually it's, it's not, it's not so bad. But they get to experience it themselves for a little bit.

I think that's the real benefit for me as a, as the trainer, as people know that I'm the trainer, so I'm normally the person that sees the end product of all this. You know, I'm the person that says, okay, well let's go out and practice this. So it was nice to actually see from my point of view, what they'd be doing. They, they staff, they contact us, then they choose to watch those videos. And I think it's the understanding for me that one, that it's, it's not as scary as they first fought because of what Ollie does and the way he describes it, it's quite simple. In, in the way he does it is, is what I've noticed. Yeah, definitely. And that thing of it also then, if you've got. A client, somebody who's come to you who wants one in one in car, if you know that they are gonna do that course, you sort of know that the gaps in their knowledge and understanding have sort of been covered by Ollie. It's like Ollie's sort of like filled in the the basics with these videos. And I will say I did a drive to Wales shortly after watching all of the videos, and I've got Ollie's voice in my head the whole way. I did notice that even as somebody who's, driven on motorway since teenager 'cause my family, aren't local to me. So I've, I've done years and years of motorway driving, but it did change the way that I drive. It changed my thoughts and my consciousness around my motorway driving. And yes, I could hear Ollie's voice in my head. It's gonna be so pleased, isn't it? You've got Ollie in your head.

Well, I mean, anecdotally, I know that the team, when they were, uh, doing the video editing for it, particularly one of our staff, spent a lot of time editing and I think she could probably tell you, uh, word for word every single module now. Uh, only the full break, only a full breaks. The two second rule is, is definitely always in my head when I'm driving now, that's for sure.

Yeah. But it is just little things like those words and those little phrases that are probably highlighted in the video when you are watching it that you can then just take away. 'cause you're not gonna take away, like you said earlier, the commentary driving that Ollie does is so high. You are never gonna be able to get to that point unless you practice, practice, practice, practice. But what he does and what the videos do is just highlight key things, key points that you can then just take away. And that's potentially what I'm seeing is headway. You know, we would probably never mention headway. We'd have a different word for it, but, and tailgating. So you, you can use those sort of. Key elements. Yeah, definitely. And I was really conscious when I was doing my drive, much more conscious of blind spots because of having done the course myself. Mm-hmm. So I did, and what I noticed was I had a much more active drive. And one of the things we know from our nervous and our anxious drivers is that a lot of the anxiety is coming from thoughts in their head. It's coming from thoughts like, I hate this. Oh God, there's a lorry. You know, whatever those thoughts are. Whereas when you are having a very active driver, you are considering all of these things, making sure that you've got headway. Thinking about blind spots, there's no room. For those pesky negative thoughts that are coming in going, I hate this, I hate this. Um, or I need to get off, or any of those sorts of thoughts. There's no room for those when you are having a very active conscious drive. But what I liked about the sort going away from the drive in and back to the videos is what you said there about safe space. It's giving somebody that safe space to. View that to immerse themselves within that drive, but in a safe space. Because when somebody is very anxious, actually even just the thought of driving on the motorway, just thinking about it can increase the anxiety. So that safe space is that stepping stone. It's that bit where even if, if somebody knows that just the thought of it makes them feel anxious, this video course is that best first step, rather than forcing themselves onto a motorway when they're not feeling ready. It just gives them that interim safe space to find out more, immerse themselves in it safely.

Yeah, definitely. I think it's, it's a, it's a great kind of first step, particularly if they are, you know, extremely nervous about getting on there. They can, they can go in and have a go at it. and we know, so one of the things that we, we did with the course as. You know, as spin out status as we are, we, we still academics, at the heart of it. And one of the things that we always like to make sure is that the products that we, and solutions that we're putting out. True to our academic, you know, spin out and our academic, foundations or foundings as it were, and make sure that it can kind of do what, do what it says on the tin as they say. And so we did actually test the course on about, it was about nearly 400 drivers, before. So we did sort of a research study as part of the kind of trial for it and found that. It, it did have, um, the course did show that it, improved, confidence and knowledge. And I know you mentioned a second ago about knowledge, uh, but it also reduced anxiety as well. And one of the training modules that, I believe it's the merging one, did show, a reduced intention to violate in the future as well. So it's tackling lots of different aspects that kind of contribute to nervous and anxious. Driving on the motor away. So I think having that kind of evidence behind it as well, it is really important. And I think that's really important to, to show people who are going to do it as well, because it's all well and good saying, oh, here's a course to make you safer, but, or, you know, make you less nervous. Um, but if it hasn't got any kind of evidence to show that it is gonna do that, they might not take it so seriously. So having, having that research underpinning it is really important as well, and I think that kind of is hopefully what encourages people to, to want to do it.

So that was gonna be one of my questions but it's, it's like you, you've answered it there, and it's, it, 'cause it's so nice being able to have researchers and being able to talk to people that have researched this and before. I'm the end user almost. I'm the one that's going out and trying this, and with people that are anxious, nervous, or even stressed about driving on the motorways. that gives me, as a trainer some sort of like, validation of what we're doing is because, look, this has been tested, this has been verified you know, with, with the results that you, or the feedback that you are getting back from it. So that's really nice to to hear.

Definitely. I think it's a, and it's an important thing, particularly for us as a company that's kind of our, almost like our unique selling point, as it were, is that we are. Still true to our academic kind of, beginnings as it were. We always try to make sure that everything we do is based in research, you know, even so the course itself obviously is, is six modules, but there is also like a, a motorway specific hazard test in there as well for drivers to kind of go and test the motorway hazard skills. And as far as I'm aware, there, there is actually nothing else. Out there that is specific for testing your motorway hazard perception skills because the hazards that you encounter on the motorway are, are pretty different to the ones that you get on the road. I mean, they tend to be a, a similar kind of thing, people cutting in front of you. But if you've not had experience with that. When you are on the normal roads, which you probably often don't really as much, you know, when it comes to the motorway, when you're seeing people doing that all the time, it can be, you know, quite a daunting thing. So being able to kind of demonstrate, here's, here's some of the hazards that you might encounter on the, on the motorway. And again, with that particular hazard test, we, we did validate that test. So we, we tested it on, um, on real drivers. As we would hope to find, we did find that people who performed worse on that test had had more collisions in the past, which is great 'cause it shows that the test is tapping into the actual skill of, of has a perception. But it is a validated test so drivers can go and kind of test their, their skills on it, but it also allows 'em to see, you know, the types of hazards. That that's the whole point of a hazard perception test is that it is an assessment, but it is also training as well, because you're getting lots of hazards in a very short amount of time. that you can then sort of store in your memory and use the rules that you've seen in those hazards for future situations and sort of extrapolate to when a similar situation might happen on, on the road or the motorway again. So yeah, having that in there is really, really important as well. So together, you've kind of in the whole kind. Package, I guess you've got a way to test your motorway hazard skills, but also train some of them. And then you've got the, the six training modules. I believe altogether the content that's over, over two hours in of content within there. So there's plenty to, plenty to get through. but like, say it's all gone through validation, phase within there as well.

Yeah, and it's what you said there about it. They get the experience of doing it, and that then helps them in future situations. It's that enabling them to make much better predictions, to be able to spot situations, developing sooner, giving themselves much more time and space to be able to react to that. And yeah, making those good predictions because. That's the thing that changes the way you feel. If you see something developing, you make a prediction, you take action, you feel like you know what you're doing, and then the anxiety reduces. It's a, it's a chain reaction, isn't it?

Yeah, definitely. I think, having the improved knowledge can, can only be a good thing to help reduce your anxiety and, and improve your confidence when kind of encountering all those different road situations.

I don't think there is anything else like it, which was why when we saw it being presented in December, we were like that. We need to be able to offer everybody that and 'cause nothing else is researched.

No, and I think like, like you've said before, it is a great stepping stone, for people. we would never wanna say that it's ever gonna replace a real kind of lesson on the motorway. Um, but if you've got someone who really doesn't want to do it, bit like sat there thinking, oh, I've got hate this. I hate this by giving them this. Kind of first, it breaks down some of those barriers that they might have have in their head of like, oh my gosh, I don't wanna do this. I hate this. But showing them, giving them the course first and then taking them out on the road, it gives them a bit of like say, knowledge and experience and perhaps a little bit more confidence when they actually go on the motorway with yourselves in the car. Or even maybe by themselves if they think, oh, maybe, we'll, I'll try it. But it is, it is a great kind of bridge. I think particularly if you've got somebody who's really. Anxious about it. it's a good InBetween bit.

Lovely. Vicki, when I invited you on to come and do the podcast with us, was there anything that you thought, oh, I really want to talk about this, that maybe we haven't touched on or covered so far?

I can't think of anything off the top of my head. I'd probably afterwards be like, oh yeah, I think, no. I think maybe just to, round it up as it were. the whole kind of reason for doing it is we know that safe systems, safer road users is relatively kind of. Overlooked. and lots of interventions are at different parts of it. You know, post collision and engineering out kind of solutions and behaviors and all these things impact on behaviors. But actually trying to create something that directly impacts on the road user by providing them with a, a training module to tackle nervous and anxious driving, I think can only, can only be a good thing. And, you know, it wasn't a case of. Just making something and going, ah, here we go. It tackles, no, it makes people safer. It makes people less anxious. I think going through the rigorous process of, the validation, testing it on road users and being able to say at the end of it, it reduces anxiety, improves confidence, improves knowledge. and it's got the hazard test where they can test their knowledge. I think that's the kind of beauty of it. and it really is a tool to kind of help those people that are nervous and anxious on it to encourage, you know, safe and considerate driving on the motorway because that's what all we can really hope for. even if you're not nervous. Or anxious. I think doing, just doing it, you will get something from it. There's plenty of things in there that are not just about nervous and anxious drivers, but there's lots of stuff in there that can be gathered for, for that. but yeah, really just to kind of highlight that and, hope that it can be used with people to kind of help really.

Fantastic. Yeah, brilliant. And obviously we're huge supporters of it. As soon as we saw it, we were like, yeah, this is what's needed. So we are selling this on behalf. Of e situ solutions on our website. There will be links in the show notes to go straight to the details on the course for anyone who's interested. Vicki, thank you so much for joining us. That's been a brilliant conversation. I've really enjoyed that and I hope that that's been interesting for our listeners. Yeah, thank you Vicki.

Thank you for listening. Find out about the different ways that you can work with us on our website, www.confidentdrivers.co.uk, and begin to transform the way you feel about driving.