0:00:05.3 Vicki Brett: Welcome to the Inclusive Education Project. I'm Vicki Brett.

0:00:08.9 Amanda Salohi: I'm Amanda Salohi. We're two civil rights lawyers on a mission to change the conversation about education, civil rights, and modern activism.

0:00:19.3 Vicki Brett: Each week, we're gonna explore new topics which are going to educate and empower others.

0:00:25.4 Amanda Salohi: And give them a platform to enact change in education and level the playing field.

0:00:33.4 Vicki Brett: Welcome back, friends.

0:00:34.4 Amanda Salohi: What a great way to start a podcast. That's what October has felt like, really.

0:00:39.3 Vicki Brett: I mean, that's what this year has felt like. Yeah. We're getting into being cold, although I know you listeners that are in other states not in California experience cold in a different way, but I'm sitting here gloomy in sweats.

0:00:54.3 Amanda Salohi: Yeah, I had three IEP meetings. The first one, bright and early on Monday, was three hours. And they all have been very different in good ways, but yeah, we're definitely in it. And we have a lot going on coming up, right? Especially in California with our special elections. And so we are actually really excited to have our guest Lindsay on because this is something that I don't think a lot of people talk about. She has a way of talking about it that I think our listeners would really kind of gain a lot, whether you're an educator or parent. Yeah, I think it's gonna be a really good conversation. Thank you so much for coming onto the podcast.

0:01:35.1 Lindsay : Thank you for having me. I'm excited to chat with you.

0:01:37.8 Vicki Brett: Can you give our listeners a little bit of a background on you, how you got to your current role and a little bit about what you do?

0:01:45.6 Lindsay : Sure, so I am a professor of political science and I've been doing that for 11 years at Stevens Institute of Technology. And I find that most people don't know a lot about that school. I didn't before I worked there, but it is a premier engineering school in Hoboken, New Jersey. And so though I went to a state school for undergrad, University of Kansas, and then NYU for my PhD, which both have really big political science programs, I now find myself in a small department in a big engineering school. And in some ways that is what caused me to write the book that I did because these students are so bright. They are so good at doing tests, so good at doing school. And when I give them an intro to American politics, I'll have just like a simple pre-test. And a lot of times the majority of my classes don't know the very basics of American government. They don't know how it's set up. They don't know how to pull their own levers of power. And so I thought, if these are some of the top scoring in the SAT, ACT kids of the nation and they're not getting this, I know that it's gotta be worse in other places. And so that's what started the work of this book.

0:02:49.6 Amanda Salohi: And so then that would probably... The gap that you're seeing is just a limited focus even right on the importance of just even understanding how our nation's like, lawmakers, how everything is structured. And so then, you know, the guidebook that you have obviously is for parents. I think administrators could gain much from it.

0:03:13.4 Amanda Salohi: But it sounds like it's also kind of sharing the weight of not just putting it all on the schools, right? Having parents try to produce active participants, right? I don't think we think about that as parents, right? Was that kind of another way that you came about with the book, or it really just stemmed from what you saw as you were providing those kind of key quizzes for the kids at the top of the semester?

0:03:43.8 Lindsay : So the quizzes is what got me started to think about this project. And then I took on six research assistants. And in the course of three years, we interviewed teachers in 47 states. We looked at the curriculum in every state. We looked at test score outcomes for eighth grade nation's report card test on civics, AP, U.S. Government. We looked at voter registration and turnout data. And we thought we were gonna write a book that might be something like, these are the states that are doing this well. And what we learned in the course of that research is that no state is doing this that well. And there's a lot of reasons for that. And so the first part of the book sort of says, here's how we got to this civic deficit. Here's the school part of that story. And then here's how we can sort of get out of it. And then the second half is a primer for parents who were already in school systems that were already actively deprioritizing civics. So they oftentimes feel like they don't know that much themselves. And that sort of sucks. It does. And I like get that and I understand that.

0:04:35.7 Lindsay : And for parents, we have a million other things to do, but I look around and I say like, well, we're the grownups in the room right now. And if we want our outcomes to be better, we have to understand that we have a role to play in this because the way that schools do it, and I'll just give you the quickest version, is there's no one national curriculum. There's 50 states. They all get to decide their curriculum. There's variation. But the modal style of delivery is usually in seventh or eighth grade, a child will be exposed to their first social studies class. And it might be world history, some American history, early founder stuff, and that's what happens. And then we essentially wait until the 11th or 12th grade and give most students a half semester course called government where we tell them all the things they're meant to know about government. And so it doesn't really work in the sense that it's too little, too late. The instrument of government, it's not difficult to understand, but it does take time. And if we only give our kids a checkpoint in middle school and then a check-in at the very end of high school, it's not surprising that they can't hit the ground running because we did not do an adequate job of preparing them.

0:05:34.7 Lindsay : And so I make the argument that if I had a magic wand, there's things I would change about schools. And this is not to say that everyone who we interviewed wasn't doing their best and trying. It's that it's a really constrained environment, both in terms of curricular time, in terms of the threat from parental blowback if you accidentally say something that's perceived as partisan. There's just a lot of constraints in the classroom that our homes don't have. And if we want this to get better, we have to do some of the work ourselves.

0:06:00.9 Vicki Brett: And we grew up in a generation where we were always told, oh, we don't talk about politics. We don't talk about politics with families. We don't talk about politics at the dinner table. Oh, if you go on a date, oh, don't talk about politics, right? And it's kind of synonymous, politics and government and getting involved and civil engagement, it's also intertwined, but we were always so told. And over the course of the last, I guess, seven, eight years, we've seen more younger people being more politically engaged, or at least our generation, but it's because we're realizing how much more is going on. I remember learning about the election, George Bush's second term, when I was in high school, and the election was, I couldn't vote, I wasn't 18 yet, but that was so minuscule in the amount that anyone would talk about it, because it was such a taboo topic. And we're seeing this more now, but still, so many people are like, oh, why do we have to talk about politics, right?

0:07:03.6 Lindsay : Yeah, so what we outlined in the book is that there's two general approaches in the United States. There's the one that you described, which is characteristic of most of the Midwest and parts of the South, which is like, politics is an off-limits topic. It's in the bucket with religion or sex or income, or any of those things that you say, wouldn't be polite dinner conversation. But on the other end of the spectrum, you have this sort of almost unspoken, but universally understood anti-government orientation, like politics sucks, or everyone who's doing it is an egomaniac, or they're out for themselves, or the system is rigged, or it's never going to get better. And that sort of pervasive narrative that it's all bad is something that even in homes that don't talk about politics, if you look at children's literature, children's media, their entertainment, if they have a mayor character, that's usually the only government character they'll ever have, that person is at best a bumbling doofus, and at worst, out to do harm to the city that they're meant to protect.

0:07:56.5 Vicki Brett: And that's true in Paw Patrol, to Riverdale, to Simpsons.

0:07:59.6 Lindsay : So they get that message. And that's another thing that I argue parents have to counteract that if we want a better politics. Because if we just feed our kids this, both consciously and subconsciously, from the time they're born to the time they're 18, it's not surprising they're not excited and don't want to learn about this. We haven't taught them, and we've showed them that it's kind of bad. And there are quibbles to have with politics, and I don't say that it's all good, but for most people doing the work at the state and local level, most of those people are volunteers who are trying their hardest to make the world better. It's just not fair for us to say that all politics sucks. It's just not true either.

0:08:30.4 Vicki Brett: Well, I mean, with anything with kids, about saying all of something is good or all of something is bad is not the way we should be approaching it because kids are too quick to generalize, associate the same. And so we have to be really clear. And yeah, I think back to all the times I've spent in classrooms and how the only times kids are even exposed to the idea of elections, sure, there's student government, right? So in middle school and high school, you'll start seeing student government. You'll learn about elections. And if there happens to be a big presidential election when a kid is in middle school or high school, maybe even elementary school, they might have some information about it, but it's like over the course of a kid's TK kindergarten to 12th grade, four times that they may hear about this in isolation, and it's not something that is brought up regularly.

0:09:25.1 Vicki Brett: So yeah, when you say like all politicians are bad, and I think that stems from not... I'm sure a lot of parents not really understanding what the government does. So going back to what you were saying, most people, when they have kids, if they don't have the basic understanding of what even their local government does.

0:09:43.4 Amanda Salohi: Which most people don't.

0:09:44.7 Vicki Brett: The amount of time we have spent this calendar year trying to explain to people that the federal department of education doesn't set curriculum and doesn't hire teachers and everyone who's like, oh, yay, this is amazing that we're shutting down the teachers and everyone who's like, oh, yay, this is amazing that we're shutting down the federal department of education because I don't like my teachers or I don't like the curriculum or I should get school choice. And it's like, no, no, no. You need to be thinking about your local government, your state, your local school district, your department of education in the state, even something as basic as that when everyone has gone through school and anyone with kids is dealing with their school district don't even know that basic concept.

0:10:22.3 Lindsay : Well, and in some ways, actually in every way, I don't fault people for this because what you're saying is correct. Like we only teach the politics of presidential elections and for a child that's only gonna happen four or five times before they turn 18. And so when we get out, we then have to learn state politics on our own and local politics on our own. And in reality, all these things are happening every day all the time. Like you're having elections in California, I'm having elections in New York. There's 25 other states that are having some local elections right now. Like everyone has these things all the time, but we don't have like the attention history for it. We don't have the time in a classroom to do it. And a lot of us don't have the language to do it. But that's why when I wrote this book, I was just gonna call it how to raise a citizen. And my daughter who was like 11 then, she was like, no, you need to also write on why it's up to you to do it because it's not just a how-to book, but it's a book that's like, if you need this to get done, you're gonna be the ones who has to do it. And I was very happy to put that in.

0:11:20.5 Amanda Salohi: I mean, from her mouth, amazing. Like from the mouth of babes, right? Well, and I imagine that there are just plenty of missed opportunities, right? Where you could kind of weave it into, it doesn't have to be its own set curriculum where you have to do A, B, and C. I mean, at the basic level, I would imagine, you're already trying to teach your child tolerance and respecting that not everybody is going to like what you like, right? Like I see the parenting, you know, like social media and it's like, oh, you know, here's the script that you can give your child. Just because I like it doesn't mean you have to like it, right? And so at a basic level, I mean, if we blow it up even more, that's, you know, trying to have a respectful discussion and potentially disagreement with somebody, right? That's quote unquote on the other side. And so I would imagine that you kind of break that down and really show parents, you know, you don't have to have a PhD in civics. You didn't have to get an A in government to be able to have these basic tenets that people, I don't think they make that connection.

0:12:32.9 Lindsay : I was gonna say, I explicitly say they don't need you to be political trivia experts. That's not what they need. They need you to model a few different behaviors. They need to see what is collaboration through difference. They need to see what is information seeking when you don't know anything. They need to see what a back and forth conversation is, how to normalize disagreement, how not to escalate, how to take perspective instead of just always giving it. And so these are things that we can do that don't rely on how much baseline political knowledge we have. And even when they do, it's okay for us to say to our kids, I have to say this all the time as a person who studies this, like, I don't know a lot about that, or I haven't heard about that. Like we have six ballot initiatives that I read for the first time, like two weeks ago. I was like, yeah, I don't really know anything about that. I have to go learn.

0:13:17.8 Vicki Brett: Well, I mean, even teaching the concept of it's okay to have a discussion and that discussions should occur, that you may not agree on all points and that's okay.

0:13:30.6 Lindsay : It's actually what the beauty of an American democracy is where I sometimes think we think it's gonna be compromised. We're like, you're gonna have to give a little and I'm gonna have to give a little. But in my sort of understanding of it and study of it, it's more collaborative enterprise where it's like, you want this. That's not quite exactly what I want. Let's try and figure out how we can get to something where we both get something a little bit better. And it might not be everything that I wanted because yes, I have to share. But those are things that our kids can learn instead of just, you know, government's bad, it's slow, it's not reactive, you can't get anything done. It's like, no, there's actually a real beauty to it. We just have to learn how to lean into it and harness it a bit more.

0:14:03.9 Vicki Brett: Yeah, well, and be willing to teach our kids these things. I mean, we think about all the time how families are often, you know, you hear the typical kid goes off to college and well, this is what is spewed in the media, why this administration doesn't like liberal colleges, right? Or just any colleges because they think, oh, well, my kid was made woke because of college. When in reality, they went off and learned something and had discussions. So many colleges are based on models of having discussions in classrooms and doing exactly what you're just saying that needs to happen. And they're not having those discussions at home. It's really spewed of like, well, our family is Republicans or our family is Democrats. And that's the way we've always done it. We only vote for these people. We only vote for those people. A young kid, it's easy to fall into that trap. And then especially for a teenager, for some families, I feel like if they're talking about politics, it's in that viewpoint, right? Of like, this is our identity as a family. And if you go off and you decide you have a different viewpoint, well, then you're like the black sheep now. And it shouldn't be that way.

0:15:11.1 Lindsay : Well, here's how I kind of put it to parents. When you are raising a child to understand the government that they're going to inform in the future, you are raising an athlete, not a fan. And if you were raising an athlete like a soccer player, what you would do is you would teach them the rules of the game. You would have practice drills. You would go to the gym, get stronger. You would play some practice rounds and then you'd be able to step on the field. If you're raising a fan, all you really need to say like, here's the chance that we're gonna say, here's the way we paint our faces. We boo when this person's on and we cheer when this person's on. And in politics, you're really all athletes because the parties, which we might consider the teams, those change. The actors of those parties change. The ideologies underlining those parties change. What you really wanna have is a very good athlete. So you want your child to step into that political arena, no matter if team blue or team red or team we haven't seen yet comes on the field, you want them to be as powerful as possible and as successful as possible.

0:16:02.2 Lindsay : And that requires learning about this in a lens that lets you say like, how do we do this? Instead of we care that this team wins above all else. Because how do we do this is far more powerful and it's more agenic because then you have the ability to change your outcome instead of just deciding like, well, my party's not winning or that party, I don't really like that. Oh, it's about you and your agency and you have to be a good athlete in politics.

0:16:23.2 Amanda Salohi: Oh, I love that. Yeah, that is just such a way. And that kind of led me to my question about, yeah, what is a way in which parents can kind of bring it in? And you just did that. Let's talk about the book, right? And so are there like easy chapters for parents to digest? How have you kind of outlined it? Because I'm sure parents are like, oh, it's just another thing that I got to read. Like I do audio books, everybody. So I mean, but I don't know that it is available. But can you talk more about that and how, you know, is it more of that kind of guidebook where you kind of go to the table of contents? And it's like, okay, you know, do we read it cover to cover? What are your thoughts about that?

0:16:58.9 Lindsay : That's a great question. It is available in audiobook. But so I so empathize with like, I have a million things to do. I can't read another book. And so what I always tell people is get to the introduction. And the introduction tells you like, if you want this, go here. The way that it's set up is it's very straightforward. It's like, look, we have a crisis here in some ways in that most of us don't know what we're doing, and then our kids are not going to know it any better, because the state of the citizenry is disengaged. We are like disengaged, not more engaged. And then I go through how this has happened in the schools. This is, you know, the stuff about like, there's testing parameters that don't include any social studies, SAT, ACT, no social studies. So it's not surprising that they don't learn this. And then I go through cases and how it's limiting in the classroom. And then I make the argument that parents can and should be the agents of change. Like we are the ones who they most look up to. They look up to us for what we do and what we don't do.

0:17:44.0 Lindsay : And so every time we're deciding to opt out or not activate our own power, they're learning that that's what they should do. It's an American tradition to assert your power and to keep growing in that power. And so it's something that if we want to do this, we have to be the agents of change. We shape the way they dream. And then it gets into a primer of like things that you might not know. It's like, maybe you don't know about voting. Maybe you don't know about the constitution. Maybe you don't know about federalism. But prior to getting into this, I say, here's how you do this with little kids. Here's how you do this with middle-aged kids. And here's the five things your kids have to know before they get out of your house. If you want them to be as powerful as possible and as healthy as possible.

0:18:19.0 Amanda Salohi: That is made for parents. Because then, you know, you're able to focus on the little kids. And I'm sure that even if you're just starting with that kind of middle-aged kid or what is called middle kid, like six to 13.

0:18:33.9 Vicki Brett: Yeah, I break it down in like five to nine, 10 to 14, 15 to 18.

0:18:38.0 Amanda Salohi: Oh, see, I love that. And it's never too late, right, to have these discussions and to be able to, especially with where we are in November 4th coming up. And I love kind of even the ideas of just, you know, if you are taking your kids to go vote, right, I mean, showing them the sticker of you're filling out the ballot. You know, here in California, we all in Southern California, we get a mail-in ballot. And so, you know, oh, mom, what are you filling out? And just kind of, you know, peaking their curiosity. Is there anything that you want parents to also know? I know we've been heavy on that or even administrators that would be their key takeaway. What are your thoughts that you want parents to really walk away with?

0:19:24.7 Lindsay : Yeah, the thing that I always leave parents with in my in-person things is that they have to take this on. And it doesn't really matter in which way they do that. It doesn't matter where they start or what direction they're going to go in. They have to recognize this as a responsibility and a true privilege as an American that they have to engage in this process and to share that engagement with their kids. So just take it on. You'll figure out the pathways that you need to follow for power. But it's up to you to make sure that you grab that and say, oh, yeah, I do have to do this.

0:19:52.1 Vicki Brett: Yeah, and I think it doesn't have to start big. It can start really small. Having everyday conversations about things. Like we went to a rally over the weekend and we brought our son and just having conversations about, you know, why we're speaking up or, but even little things. Like we talk about, he has a friend that moved across the country and we've been sending him letters. And he's been very curious about the post office. And we've talked about the post office being, part of the government. And this is something that we get in our countries that we have consistent mail or knock on wood when government isn't shut down, right? And they have enough employees. But those little conversations, I think, go a long way. It doesn't have to be, oh, let's learn about the three branches of government to your five-year-old. It can be small. It can start small.

0:20:43.4 Lindsay : That's exactly right. In the book, I go through examples that you can use when you're on your way to school, driving in a commute, taking your kids in a carpool. There's a lot of different things to notice. If you have nice paved roads, government had a hand in that. If you have trees that are planted, government had a hand in that. If you have places to recreate, government had a hand in that. And so there's things that we can look for. And we just need to make sure that we know that it's our responsibility to do that.

0:21:06.0 Amanda Salohi: Oh, we are so, so happy that we were able to make this work so that our listeners can have this before the election. And it is not just a one-time conversation. It's an ongoing conversation, and you have such amazing tips for parents. So Lindsay, thank you so much for coming on to our podcast and sharing your wonderful book.

0:21:24.7 Lindsay : Thank you. This was really fun for me.

0:21:26.7 Vicki Brett: Thanks, listeners.

0:21:28.2 Amanda Salohi: We will talk to you next time.

0:21:30.2 Vicki Brett: Bye.