Steve Palmer [00:00:00]:

Lawyertalkpodcast.com off the record, on the air. They don't teach you that in law school. That's the series we're covering today. We got our local law school law student hero, Troy Henriksen, who is third.

Troy Hendrickson [00:00:13]:

Year final home stretch.

Steve Palmer [00:00:15]:

The home stretch. Now, law school generally is three years.

Troy Hendrickson [00:00:20]:

Yes.

Steve Palmer [00:00:21]:

I think you go to Capitol University law. And is it still a law and graduate center?

Troy Hendrickson [00:00:24]:

I think I was looking on the paperwork somewhere. It is that, but I've never heard anybody say that.

Steve Palmer [00:00:28]:

So you go to Capitol University here in Columbus, Ohio. And when I came through, they had a night program. You could do it in four, which was a great. So people would work full time.

Troy Hendrickson [00:00:37]:

There's a lot of schools that don't offer that. I figured out when I was doing some homework and all that. It's kind of interesting.

Steve Palmer [00:00:42]:

People would ask me, why on earth would you go to cap? Well, there's two reasons. One, you didn't get into Ohio State and two, you want to go at night and work because it is a phenomenal program. Because look, you can get a lot of grant, four years going at night working your full time job. Is it easy? No, it's hard ass work. But you can do it. And you're right, not many. How many law schools want that or offer that?

Troy Hendrickson [00:01:03]:

I'll give a shout to all the night students. They're probably the brightest people I've seen in the classroom. I take a lot of night classes with them and they go in there and they, they work a full time job and they're like the most prepared students I've seen there.

Steve Palmer [00:01:14]:

Which is kind of great. Right? Because they're, they're, it's usually older people.

Troy Hendrickson [00:01:17]:

Yeah.

Steve Palmer [00:01:19]:

And look, I get it. Maybe, maybe not all older people are better students. But I was definitely a better student the older I got. And you're older too, so. Yeah, you're a good student.

Troy Hendrickson [00:01:29]:

In the day program. They call me Grandpa Because I'm 28.

Steve Palmer [00:01:33]:

Yeah. You should be a night student.

Troy Hendrickson [00:01:35]:

Maybe.

Troy Hendrickson [00:01:35]:

I don't know.

Steve Palmer [00:01:36]:

All right, so they don't teach that in law school. One of the things that came up is communication with clients. So we do lots of stuff upstairs where we talk to clients all the time. And you've heard me probably say this over and over and over again that when clients call me or other prospective clients call me and they have fired their lawyer or their family calls. So here's an ethical rule. I try not to talk to clients who are represented by somebody else. So if I do get a call like that say, listen, call your lawyer. Whatever questions you're gonna ask me, call your lawyer and ask him or her those questions.

Steve Palmer [00:02:10]:

But leave that aside. One of the most. The biggest problem and almost always if there's a breakdown in the attorney client relationship, it involves communication and lawyers talking to clients. We sort of had that problem come up and maybe in reverse. So we have to manage expectations and communicate with clients. Now, I'll let you describe the problem that emerged.

Troy Hendrickson [00:02:39]:

The problem was I had a friend who had a friend who needed some help. So they reached out to me on my personal cell phone, and they said, hey, here's a guy. He needs help. So we did the initial meeting. We actually went down to the jail, met him, and from that point on, the friend then gave me. Gave the family my personal cell phone. And they just kept calling, calling, calling, asking for updates. It's a pellet case, which you've talked about a lot on the show.

Troy Hendrickson [00:03:10]:

That's not something that needs an update every week. That's not something that needs an update every month. That's something that needs an update, like maybe every 90 days, maybe.

Steve Palmer [00:03:18]:

And you said needs an update versus they want an update.

Troy Hendrickson [00:03:21]:

Yes.

Steve Palmer [00:03:22]:

And somewhere in the middle.

Troy Hendrickson [00:03:24]:

So they wanted updates on a weekly basis, sometimes like twice a week. And it was. There's nothing to update on.

Steve Palmer [00:03:32]:

And it becomes impossible.

Troy Hendrickson [00:03:33]:

Yeah.

Steve Palmer [00:03:34]:

So here's what they should be teaching in law school. So maybe they should hire me. Tell Capital they should. I'll do it for free. How come? Hire is the wrong word. I'll come in and I'll talk about this, because this is critical. This is critical. First of all, I do not use my personal cell phone for business.

Steve Palmer [00:03:52]:

And what I mean by I make calls on my cell phone for business. But I do not give my cell phone to clients. And for the purposes of communicating or them using it to call me for business every now and then, my client will get my cell phone because another lawyer gives it to them or something happens, or maybe even I do because it's an emergency situation. It's the every now. And there's exceptions. But as a practical matter, the first thing I tell clients, I do not do business on my cell phone. If you call my cell phone, I will not answer it. If you leave a message on my cell phone, I will not respond.

Steve Palmer [00:04:27]:

And you're thinking, boy, that guy's a real schmuck. But there's a reason for that. Now, it doesn't mean I won't talk to them somewhere else, because on my cell phone, I have a Little app. It's a voiceover Internet.

Troy Hendrickson [00:04:39]:

I don't know what it is. It's a very interesting app.

Steve Palmer [00:04:40]:

It's called VoIP, a voiceover Internet protocol or like Google Phone or whatever that is.

Troy Hendrickson [00:04:45]:

Yeah, that's basically the same thing.

Steve Palmer [00:04:46]:

It's a Google number I can communicate using dad. And there's a reason for this. And I guess rule number two, that is part and parcel. I do not text on my phone for business. Period. End of story. Done. And you know, at first people look, they're sort of off put by it.

Steve Palmer [00:05:07]:

But this is an important thing. Maybe they also don't teach you in law school. And a lot of lawyers, even experience ones, don't do this. I think it's helpful to explain why. So when I shock them with like, you're not going to be able to call me on my cell phone. Nah, nah, nah, nah. But I'm not a dick like that. But I tell them why.

Steve Palmer [00:05:24]:

First on the texting. Here's why. Because how many texts you get a.

Troy Hendrickson [00:05:27]:

Day with group messages and everything? Probably a couple hundred, maybe a thousand a day.

Steve Palmer [00:05:33]:

All right, at your age, even more than I would get. But I get plenty also. And how long does it take for a text to get below? I call it below the fold. Because back in my day we used to have newspapers and there was a fold in the newspaper. And if you, if like if your paper were folded in half as it was delivered, it was a big deal to be above the fold or below the fold. Because below the fold is on the back. You don't get to it, you don't see it right away. So anyway, a little explanation.

Troy Hendrickson [00:05:58]:

You say it's a newspaper. What is that?

Steve Palmer [00:06:01]:

I used to get two or three of them. Anyway, the it gets below the fold and you forget about it. And there's another problem with it too is there's some privilege questions about how are those texts being stored by whatever cell phone provider. I mean it's like what's going like you have confidential privilege communication on a platform that you don't know is secure. And people would say, when this first started, people say, I texted you yesterday. I was like, dude, I was in court until 5pm Yeah, I got 150 text messages. And I learned quickly. It's like it doesn't work.

Steve Palmer [00:06:41]:

And the expectation when you text is somebody will respond immediately. We can't respond immediately. You wouldn't call your doctor's office and say, or text your doc and say, get back to me right now. But with lawyers, there's this understanding. People feel like that's what they need. And I think they feel like that way because it's a lot like what you did in this case. You set the expectation.

Troy Hendrickson [00:07:03]:

Yeah.

Steve Palmer [00:07:03]:

And you didn't know any better. And they didn't know any better. I don't think they were wrong either. And it's not a criticism, it's just an observation.

Troy Hendrickson [00:07:11]:

Yeah.

Steve Palmer [00:07:11]:

So what they should be teaching you in law school is set expectations for communication up front. Let me say it again. Set expectation for communication up front. I tell people, look, you've heard me say it when I meet with them. One of the biggest problems with the attorney client relationship is communication. Almost always when somebody's calling me after they've had another lawyer, I hate that guy, he's no good, he didn't do anything for me, blah blah, blah. And then I look at what the lawyer did. He did quite a bit, but the client didn't know it.

Steve Palmer [00:07:40]:

So there was not communication. So we have to set up rules of engagement. We have a platform. Almost everybody now uses some sort of attorney management software that has a texting app or texting capabilities and messaging capabilities instead of email. Now emails are okay, but we try to use this messaging because it keeps everything confidential. It keeps it tied to one place and most important, it pops up as to do's in my daily interface. So I don't drop the ball on communication. I get notices, so and so sent you a message and it lingers around there until I process it and deal with it, unlike a text message on my phone.

Steve Palmer [00:08:22]:

And secondly, it is privileged and saved in my client matters because that's the other important thing about texts. If somebody texts me and I don't have it saved, the advice I gave them by text, it's like it's on my cell phone in the ether of cell phone world, not in the file. How do I, you know, you can't pull it up. You can't pull it up. Are you scrolling through like hundreds of messages? And a lot of you don't create contacts for your clients on your phone. No, I mean I would have 10,000. I mean I would have. You can't.

Steve Palmer [00:08:54]:

It'd be unwield. It'd be impossible. I would have to just scroll through and maybe recognize a number and see. It's just. It becomes really, really unwieldy.

Troy Hendrickson [00:09:01]:

Yeah.

Steve Palmer [00:09:02]:

So set expectations up front. Look, Mr. Client, I want you to feel like you know what's going on with the case. I do my best to tell you what's going on. With the case. And I do that in one of a couple of ways. One of three ways. I'll call you and I'll say, look, something happened in your case.

Steve Palmer [00:09:21]:

Here's what's going on. We got court coming up. I want to talk to you about what to expect. I'll send you a message in our platform, or I'll send you a text in our platform and reverse that if you need to talk to me. I almost always say, unless it's an emergency, start with the messaging or the text, and that way I know you're ringing the bell.

Troy Hendrickson [00:09:43]:

Yeah.

Steve Palmer [00:09:44]:

If you call and leave a message, I'm in court, I'm running around the state, you know, we're busy. And now if somebody does leave a message says it's an emergency, we try to get back to people within 24 hours. There's nothing that frustrates me more when somebody calls before I have a chance to call them back within 24 hours. I have people calling back every hour on the hour, and I'm like, look, I got the message the first time. I'll call you back.

Troy Hendrickson [00:10:09]:

The big pickle with my situation was just. And you've had this problem, I imagine a ton also is it's people, you know, so you feel like, well, I should almost give them, like, an extra shake because I know them. So I would like to give more communication to them. And it's just like, it's difficult. But now I have learned from it that right off the gate, I'm just gonna tell them, don't hit. And I feel bad seeing them, you know, at the bar or something, or they're texting me about something totally not case related. I'm just like. Like shoots.

Troy Hendrickson [00:10:36]:

And I.

Troy Hendrickson [00:10:36]:

They. They like, text me about softball, for instance. And then the text above that I'd never responded to was about their case. I'm like, like, shoot. Like, now I feel bad.

Steve Palmer [00:10:44]:

Like, no, but you only feel bad because you haven't set the parameters. And you. And I don't mind telling people I have. You bring up a great. This is a great question and a huge pitfall that people. I have fallen into it. Even to this day. I sometimes fall into it.

Steve Palmer [00:10:57]:

When you represent friends and family, things get screwed up. And by things, I mean the communication. It gets screwed up. I tend to drop the ball in those situations because you treat them differently. What does that mean from law office protocol perspective? You call my office and you're a stranger. All right, Troy's called my office. He needs help because he's a no good, rotten murderer. I'm just kidding.

Steve Palmer [00:11:25]:

So Troy's got to speed up.

Troy Hendrickson [00:11:26]:

The evidence is so weak, I think I'm gonna walk.

Steve Palmer [00:11:29]:

Troy's got a legal problem. He calls my office. The first thing I do is I create a contact and I categorize it as a lead or a potential client. So now I've got a place. So now Troy's here. And then if Troy is going to hire me, I convert that into a case or a matter. And in that matter, I'll be able to monitor communications. Text messages, phone call logs.

Steve Palmer [00:11:52]:

When people call me, I log the call. I do all that. But when you represent friends, you tend not to do that. It tends to come in. It's like, oh, yeah, I'll help you out. Just give me your ticket. And the ticket ends up in my shirt pocket because I met at some. At a party or something, and it shows up on my kitchen counter and I bring it in and I'm like, what was that again? What's the.

Steve Palmer [00:12:12]:

Or you tend to. Or maybe you're not going to charge somebody who's your friend and so you don't. You don't think. I don't need to enter that in and do all the bill. You still have to do it. And you need to tell your. You need to tell your friends and family. That's what you're doing.

Steve Palmer [00:12:25]:

So. And I've gotten this. And you know what's interesting? It's back to the point I made, is that when you tell people why and they understand it, they won't be offended. So when I say, all right, Aunt Joanne, I'm representing you, but I'm going to treat you like a client for this purpose. Okay? Don't be. I know it's going to be odd, but just go with me on this. I have to treat you like a client. I have to create a matter for you.

Steve Palmer [00:12:48]:

You're going to get an engagement letter from me. You're going to get the standard communication that we send everybody. You're going to get the intake form. Even though I know where you live and I have your number already, you're going to get all this information because then it's going to get plugged into my system, and I will treat you like I treat every other client in the ordinary course of business. That doesn't mean worse. It means better. Right? Yeah, because then I won't drop the ball. Then I won't forget about a court date that you told me about at Thanksgiving.

Steve Palmer [00:13:15]:

Then you're in the system, and my team Upstairs understands that it's a case and it's a client. And you could even go so far in your scenario, say, look, look, Bobby, here's the deal. After today, I'm not going to respond to texts about business. And you have the enviable position to be able to say, because my boss is an asshole and won't let me do it, you can say the law firm just doesn't do that.

Troy Hendrickson [00:13:44]:

So reason one, you'll get lost in the ether. Reason two, ethically we have to keep everything logged. And reason three, my boss is a dick. Yeah, three good reasons.

Steve Palmer [00:13:54]:

He's a dick because he has put his hand in the fire on the first two reasons and been burned enough times to know that it doesn't work. It doesn't work now, then we've got this other situation where you've got the. We'll call it the over anxious client. And look, I'm empathetic to this. I tend to have levels of anxiety about things and I get stressed and I have to control that. And it'd be really easy to call your lawyer every single day even though you haven't heard anything. Now first of all, the texting platform in our system is great for that.

Troy Hendrickson [00:14:28]:

Love that.

Steve Palmer [00:14:28]:

Because I can get up at 4 in the morning, I see a text from a client, sorry, no updates. Click, gone. Done. And that's not dismissing their question, it's just saying no updates. And sometimes that's what clients need to hear. But if they incessantly call every single day, we're human, man. It tends to, it's like, it gets to the point you're like, holy crap again. And it's not fair to us and it's not fair to them.

Steve Palmer [00:14:54]:

So it's like you have to set the rules of engagement and then it makes sense to everybody. Say, look, I understand you want to know every single day that there's nothing going on. I can't provide that kind of service. I can't do it. I can promise you a couple of things though. One, when anything's important, I will let you know right away. Two, I will make a point to give you an update, even if it's a no update at regular intervals, but not every day. You know, pick whatever you know, say monthly, I'll report with you, it's an appeal.

Steve Palmer [00:15:26]:

We haven't heard anything, you know, check back. Three, if you call and have a question and you say, I really have a question, I need to talk to you, I will make a point to get back to you and either schedule A call or handle it by messaging if I'm in trial or whatever it would be, I will always let you know what's going on. And I think. I think when people hear that, they feel relieved because the other, you know, I've been in a situation where I've worked with other professionals or maybe even a contractor at your house, and you don't know what's going on. You feel like you're bugging them. Like you feel like you're pestering them.

Troy Hendrickson [00:16:00]:

Yeah.

Steve Palmer [00:16:00]:

And that's not comfortable. When you're the one that feels like you have to do that, that's not comfortable either. So I think you have to be empathetic of both sides of this and say, Look, Mr. Klein, I don't want you to feel like you're bugging me. Just ask the question and I promise you I will get back to you. If there's no update, you may just get a text from me that says nothing new. Fair enough. Now if it's still not good enough, sometimes you just can't do it.

Steve Palmer [00:16:27]:

You say, look, I can't meet the demands or the needs that you have. I don't have the time to do that. And if that doesn't. If the attorney client relationship has to terminate for that reason, at least you know why. And it doesn't have to be on hard terms. So I don't know what they're. They have a class in law school. Like a practice management type class?

Troy Hendrickson [00:16:47]:

Yeah, it's small managing practice. Let's say a malpractice lawyer teaches it. She does a pretty good job. She goes over everything, just trying to set up a shingle, pretty much out the gate. And she has a pretty decent practice. We go to her office, everything. She goes over the budget, Marketing, actually renting space. Like.

Troy Hendrickson [00:17:09]:

It's a very informative class. I recommend it to all my classmates to take the class. It's very nice because you actually get to see. We don't talk about anything. Lawyer. It's all about business. Lawyer.

Steve Palmer [00:17:18]:

Well, that's good. And you need that because there's like, this is. It's one of those weird businesses where. Particularly doing criminal defense, where it's a personal service, yet it's a business. You are personally committed to a case, yet it's a business. You could say in contract law, you learned some of this. It's a different contract if I hire a skilled artist to paint a mural for me and the artist defaults or breaches the contract. It's a different beast than if I just hired somebody to paint the walls of my house.

Steve Palmer [00:17:54]:

Because, you know, there might be some painters who are better than other painters as far as painting the walls, but you can probably find somebody to do a commensurate job, something about the same job. But if it's a unique skill set that you've hired and that person breaches, it's a different remedy. So we're sort of both, like, if somebody calls me and they want me to do the work, they've, like, they've done it because they met with me or they've heard about me or they've worked with me before and they want, they want me. And I'm not, I'm not bragging because there's plenty of lawyers that they would. That other would want. But so it's, it's a unique niche market. You should tell your professor I'm willing to come in and talk about this communication thing because it's essential to running a smooth law practice.

Troy Hendrickson [00:18:32]:

Oh, well, I will. They have an opening on. They only teach in the fall, I believe. So, you know, if you want to take over the class in the spring.

Steve Palmer [00:18:39]:

Tell them I'm in. All right. All right. Well, they don't teach you that in Law School. LawyerTalkPodcast.com if you happen to be a law student or considering law school, this is a great series. Check it out. If you got a topic that you want me to cover outside this, we'll be happy to kick it around and chop it up right here at the table. Shoot me a question, shoot us a topic.

Steve Palmer [00:18:57]:

Do whatever you want, like share. Lawyer talk, podcast. They don't teach you that in law school. Off the record, on the air till now.