Bro Saeed

[00:00:00] Imam Tariq: May the peace that only God give be upon you. Welcome to the American Muslim Podcast. I'm your host, Iman Tariq El-Amin. And before we get started, we want to thank our sponsor for this week's episode, Xpressive Mocha, plant-based Care with purpose, hand-crafted skin and beard products infused with coffee or tea made for those who are tired of battling eczema, rosacea, or psoriasis who have been given nothing but empty promises.

[00:00:30] Imam Tariq: Their products are gentle, intentional, and effective. You can find them on social media at Expressive Mocha. That's X-P-R-E-S-S-I-V-E-M-O-C-H-A, and you can go to their website, expressive moca com. They have a full line of products that you'll be happy that you found out about. Today, I'm happy to share with you a conversation I had with Brother Saeed Purcell

[00:00:55] Imam Tariq: He's a convert educator and a man with over 30 years in Islamic [00:01:00] teaching and leadership. He has done work all over the country, and I think you're going to enjoy this conversation. So without any further ado, I want start out brother. Here we go. Saeed by, um, I guess we, we frame all of our discussions, uh, starting the same way, uh, which is to say that we respect the work that they're doing.

[00:01:20] Imam Tariq: We recognize that, but we also recognize that there's a great value in the journey. Right. What has brought you to where you're at today? , So that said, we invite you to be as open, as vulnerable, as transparent as you're comfortable being and sharing your story.

[00:01:36] Bro Saeed: I, I laugh at that because I just started the podcast of my own.

[00:01:41] Bro Saeed: Oh, did you? Called the Halal Highway.

[00:01:45] Imam Tariq: Okay.

[00:01:45] Bro Saeed: Uh, navigating Faith, one detour at a time. Okay. The whole purpose is to discuss journeys. Mm. And the importance of the journey. Mm-hmm. And not as much the destination, but the experience along the [00:02:00] road and how it informs the outcomes. Mm. Obviously with a certain biases to what the outcome is or should be.

[00:02:08] Bro Saeed: Right. But Right. And we're, we're very transparent about that in the very first episode. We're like, we're like, obviously we have our opinions about this. Right. It's actually kind of an interesting project because I've been kicking around the idea for a while, but then a young man I had been engaged with for over five years.

[00:02:24] Bro Saeed: Mm-hmm. Um, who was on his journey, he eventually decided that he was ready to convert. And so he approached me when he decided that he wanted to convert. And so I, I was able to finagle it so that I was giving the huah mm-hmm. That day. And he did the shahada after the huah. And so, um, we announced the podcasts after his shahadah.

[00:02:46] Bro Saeed: Then we've released. Technically two episodes, one episode with the both of us. Mm-hmm. We shot a second one, but we didn't have any sound it turned out. And so we have to reshoot that episode now. But the whole goal is to talk about the [00:03:00] journey. Yes. 'cause he went through almost every faith in the course of his journey to becoming Muslim.

[00:03:04] Bro Saeed: I went through my own journeys with some faiths, et cetera, and mm-hmm. My experiences. And we had some weird parallels in our own journey. So that was another reason for it. But he seemed a natural, um, counterpoint. Um, he didn't, we, I joked about the first episode, about the before and after, because I'm 32 plus years in.

[00:03:22] Bro Saeed: He's like, you know, 30 days in at that point. Right. So it was a, it was a, it was a major contrast in that respect, but it was, it is show lot. It's gonna be interesting.

[00:03:32] Imam Tariq: Mm mm Well, wame, I bless you, uh, in this new podcast. Uh, pray that it's beneficial and of course that you have a lot of fun doing it. You said you're 32 years in, right?

[00:03:42] Imam Tariq: Tell us a bit about that.

[00:03:44] Bro Saeed: All right. Well, so going, going back to what we touched on already talking about journeys. So it was a journey as it is with most of us, um, that, uh, go through that process of, um, coming to the faith or renewing our, our commitment to the faith. So it [00:04:00] started in junior year in high school.

[00:04:02] Bro Saeed: Mm-hmm. Um, I'm gonna fast forward through some of it. So because it's, even the journey itself is long. It was about eight years of conscious journeying, um, going through different stops along the way. Pentecostal church, no faith to speak of really, um, going back to the church, um, that I grew up with without much commitment, more out of, uh, habits.

[00:04:28] Bro Saeed: And then continuing the journey, going through different stops, Daoism, Confucianism, even Native American spirituality. Um, and then eventually starting to stumble upon Islam in. In kind of a left-handed way, uh, coming at it through my advocations with music and then eventually that leading to my first engagements with both the Quran and the Muslim community.

[00:04:57] Bro Saeed: And then two years from [00:05:00] beginning to read the Quran and engage with the Muslim community. Finally taking my shahada. Um, that being said, in that approximate two year interval where I was reading the Quran on a semi-regular basis, um, and engaging with the community, um, usually when that entailed attending Juma prayers every week, that went on for over a year.

[00:05:23] Bro Saeed: So I was, I like to joke, I was switch hitting for over, over 12 months, going to the mosque on Friday in church on Sunday. Mm-hmm. Um, kind of, for lack of a better word, saying it, weighing pros and cons. And before I finally made the decision to actually convert towards, I say jump the broom because. Um, my family growing up was religious, especially my mother.

[00:05:46] Bro Saeed: She worked for the church most of my life. My grandmother actually was one of my teachers in vacation Bible school growing up. Um, she was actually in a different church than my mother, 'cause my mother had technically converted to a different denomination when she married my [00:06:00] father. And so she stuck with that even after they separated.

[00:06:03] Bro Saeed: But, um, so I was in their vacation bible school and as soon as that one would finish, my grandmother's church would start theirs and I'd wind up in their vacation Bible school. So I did it twice every summer. And at least once or twice, she was my teacher in PBS at the Lutheran Church. Hmm. Um, after I finished at the United Methodist Church.

[00:06:21] Bro Saeed: So going through all of that as I was going through the journey, but finally getting to the point where I was ready to pull that trigger. Um, but made the decision in the fall of 92, but didn't actually take the SHAHADAH until January 1st, 1993, which was a Friday. So it was after Juma prayers. Um. The community had gotten to know me pretty well.

[00:06:43] Bro Saeed: I already knew a lot of the people there 'cause it was in my neighborhood. Um, and so I took the shahada, um, formally on New Year's Day. So New Year's Day is a holiday for me, but you know, for a whole different reason. It's an anniversary. Right. But, um, so from that, from that [00:07:00] place on, so because I've had kind of a long on ramp, my learning curve, there was definitely still a learning curve, but my learning curve was a lot shorter 'cause of that.

[00:07:10] Bro Saeed: 'cause I had been exposed to hearing the sermons, praying alongside the Muslims all before becoming Muslim. And so I already had kind of a leg up. I'd made very pitiful attempts at praying and fasting even before taking my shahada. Um, so I had that under my belt as well. Failures leading to successes eventually.

[00:07:29] Bro Saeed: Mm-hmm. Uh, but I was fortunate that when I converted and when the, the community had recently changed leadership, so the leadership had changed. And the brothers that were leading the community at that time were very knowledge focused. And so they were very much encouraging people to learn. And so I got dropped into that mix and that helped lead me into starting to pursue studies, um, first locally and then with institutions around the country.

[00:07:58] Bro Saeed: Um, I flirted with the idea of going overseas, [00:08:00] but when I first was looking at it, everybody was looking for somebody younger than me. Mm-hmm. And so I felt like I was, I had already aged out without even having the chance to not age out. And so I was like, okay, I guess I gotta focus my energy here. So I was able to find institutions stateside that I was able to study with, um, from the American Open University to the Islamic University of North, north America, the ISHKA University, then Islamic Online University, which is now Islamic Open University.

[00:08:29] Bro Saeed: And. Uh, come on. Uh, Islamic, university of Minnesota International Islamic University of Minnesota. Uh, a bunch of other stuff I did outside of degrees, degree focused work as well. So just, it's an ongoing journey. I'm still studying until today. Hmm. Um, it never stops as I'm sure you're more than well aware of.

[00:08:50] Bro Saeed: Yeah.

[00:08:51] Imam Tariq: Yeah.

[00:08:51] Bro Saeed: So, but that's, that's really cutting it short 'cause there's too many stops along the way. Um, 'cause my journey for a [00:09:00] convert was unique in a lot of ways because most converts, they have their stories of isolation, of not feeling included. If anything, mine was the polar opposite of that. Within, within two years or so of converting.

[00:09:18] Bro Saeed: Mind you, the internet was still very new. We're talking 1995. Mm-hmm. Uh, the Islamic Center of Minnesota, because I was based in the Twin Cities, Minneapolis, St. Paul. Islamic Center of Minnesota was online even at that time. And so when I pulled up their website, they had, on their homepage they had a breakdown of some of the curriculum for their Sunday school program.

[00:09:38] Bro Saeed: Now mind, I didn't know they were called it Sunday School or that was for the kids at the time. I just saw a curriculum. Mm-hmm. And being still two years in, still obeye in many respects. I was like, Hey, that's what I'm looking for. So I decided to go to the Massachusetts do Go Islamic Center to learn.

[00:09:53] Bro Saeed: When I get there, the religious director and I already know each other because he's given Holocaust to different, two different masters [00:10:00] that I attend. And so I am not a passive learner. When I'm there, I'm asking questions even though I'm still kind of low on the foot tot pole. And so he recognized me and he knew me and knew me to be a curious, you know, if not even informed individual.

[00:10:15] Bro Saeed: So he actually immediately pulled me in to assist and teach with him for the 11th and 12th grade classes and put me in as an assistant for the Islam 1 0 1 program. Following year, I'm leading both programs. And I did that for at least three years running, um, at the time. And at that time it was a, some completely volunteer effort.

[00:10:34] Bro Saeed: So I was thrown into the deep end of the pool, um, pretty quick. And so for, for lack of a better word, had to learn how to swim. Yeah. Very, very quickly as well. One of the weirdest parts of that entire journey, and this is where it, where again it's very atypical for many converts, um, this was a predominantly immigrant community, so it was a lot of Desi Arab, uh, families kind of even mix.

[00:10:57] Bro Saeed: Um, they had their Koran [00:11:00] instructor and old Desi gentleman that would, uh, lead the kids through reciting the Quran. Not necessarily memorize it, but just reciting it and completing the Quran with him, et cetera. So he would, most of the time he would lead the salon when we'd have th prayer, he would go up front, lead the salon, everybody would be behind him, maybe a hundred or so people, whatever.

[00:11:16] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:18] Bro Saeed: Weirdly, and I still don't know the whole reason why, um, he actually himself would push me up. Front to lead the prayer even though he was there.

[00:11:28] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:30] Bro Saeed: You know, one of the funny parts, and you're probably very, very familiar with this one, because he was an old DEI uncle, I would go up front to lead.

[00:11:37] Bro Saeed: I dressed similar to how I am now. He of course, would grab a TOI off the side of the stack and plop it on my head as I'm standing there getting ready to lead the prayer, because that was the thing to do, of course. So and so. But, but they would push me up front to lead. And so that was unique. And around the same time, I'm actually sitting on the board of another master mm-hmm.

[00:11:57] Bro Saeed: As the secretary of that master. And so [00:12:00] I'm in leadership roles within Massa massaged from that time. And again, very unusual for most converts to be dropped into those sorts of environments. Even those sorts of responsibilities. Even, um, that new two, three years into your, your journey, you're already being thrust into these positions, et cetera.

[00:12:19] Bro Saeed: And so. With that plus the formal studies.

[00:12:23] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm. What was it? Is there something that you can identify looking back and saying? Okay,

[00:12:31] Bro Saeed: the only thing, the only thing, and this is one of my advices that I often give the converts when they're willing to listen 'cause they're not always willing to hear these things, um, is if you show up looking for what you can do rather than what you can get mm-hmm.

[00:12:48] Bro Saeed: You can show up showing that you, you want to learn, you wanna understand, you want to be involved without necessarily expecting any tangible returns. [00:13:00] That speaks for itself. I mean, I, I was listening to a few episodes prior to this so I could kind of get a sense of how you, your flow goes with these shows.

[00:13:08] Bro Saeed: And so, you know, this idea of being, of service, you know, and this idea of being, you know, uh, leadership. That's something that I know you, you talk about a lot. In the, in the programs is this idea of being a leader and leaders, and this is something I even still personally struggle with sometimes. A lot of times we define leadership as people with titles, people with these sorts of positions, et cetera, or power, so a sense of power.

[00:13:32] Bro Saeed: Mm-hmm. Um, et cetera. And a lot of times leaders can be the, the so-called least amongst us, um, but they lead by the force of their character, by their example that they set. Um, I'm even reminded when I say that of certain narration about some of the companions who were very considered very lowly and meek in the sight of society.

[00:13:55] Bro Saeed: Um, but the, I'm paraphrasing, but the know their, their do ahs, if they made do, ah, [00:14:00] Allah would, would hear them. And if they, they, they, they suck something, what would help provide for them, et cetera. They were held very highly in Allah esteem, even though the people were very lowly on them, is that that value is there even in the absence of people recognizing and so leading by that example and the challenge for all of us, myself.

[00:14:18] Bro Saeed: First and foremost is not just understanding that, 'cause the, the understanding is important, but it's the acceptance of those things, these truths that we, that we learn and we, we know here in our heads, in our minds, we need to allow them to trickle down and settle firmly into our hearts. And that's a, a nuance that is best captured in the Arabic terms.

[00:14:47] Bro Saeed: When you talk about Bain, which is I refer to as academic knowledge, then you have Mafa, which is an experiential knowledge. It's knowledge that you've tasted.

[00:14:56] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:56] Bro Saeed: And so being able to take those things, those lessons on [00:15:00] leadership, on character and things like that, et cetera, you can study them, you can, you know, do your studies, et cetera.

[00:15:05] Bro Saeed: I was listening to the, uh, interview you did with Safe a lot in Minnesota where I, where I was. Mm-hmm. And talking about memorize Quran first, but not really understanding what it was saying. And this is true of. F many of our who fought, and this is one of those unspoken truths that we don't deal with unfortunately.

[00:15:24] Bro Saeed: But that memorizing the Quran is, is, is great, is fine, but when you don't understand it, then the true value of that hidayah, the true value of that guidance, which was the purpose of the revelation in the first place, is lost on you and it doesn't show up in your character. And I've heard shocking stories of who f people that have memorized the Quran, but um, are in gangs, are selling drugs, are, you know, in intimate relationships sometimes with other Muslim girls [00:16:00] having children out of wedlock, all this stuff.

[00:16:02] Bro Saeed: And these are people with the Koran in their, in their minds. And one story, one of my teachers back in Minnesota used to tell, uh, from overseas he would talk about an assassin's group that existed in his country. And the. Uh, entry exam, if you will, to join the assassins Group was you had to memorize Quran.

[00:16:22] Bro Saeed: So you had to become hafi in order to be able to go out and kill people.

[00:16:26] Imam Tariq: Wow. That's diabolical.

[00:16:28] Bro Saeed: Yeah.

[00:16:29] Imam Tariq: Hmm.

[00:16:29] Bro Saeed: Yeah. I mean, know this is the thing is that, that we, we, I've written about this in the past, is this idea that sometimes we, we, we, uh, ritualize or idolize aspects of our faith to a point where they become from, I, it is the worst way to say it.

[00:16:45] Bro Saeed: That's the only way I can think of sacred cows, if you will. They become these things that we sacrifice on this altar of ritual that lose all meaning, that lose all significance or even real impact in our lives. And it's like even simple [00:17:00] knowledge when it's truly imbibed and applied, can be truly transformational, can be truly enough that, as I say that even I'm reminded of one of the stories of the companions, uh, in the, in the Medina Aid era.

[00:17:15] Bro Saeed: And he had only recently accepted, uh, Islam, um, so recently that he hadn't had time to learn how to pray even. And the call for Jihad had come forward. There was an army attacking and he was behind a rock or something, eating a date or whatever, and he heard the call. And so he took the date, he threw it away, and he rushed out to the battlefield and was killed.

[00:17:36] Imam Tariq: Right.

[00:17:37] Bro Saeed: Even before ever praying a single prayer prophet testified for him that he was amongst the righteous that he would be in paradise. Yeah. Without any prayer whatsoever.

[00:17:46] Imam Tariq: Yeah.

[00:17:47] Bro Saeed: So here was, here was faith, brand new, like a shiny penny.

[00:17:52] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:53] Bro Saeed: And no worship to speak of necessarily, not at least in the way that we usually think of worship, but that sincerity of his [00:18:00] faith, it drove him to the ultimate sacrifice and that was enough to open that doorway for him.

[00:18:06] Bro Saeed: And we do almost the polar opposite.

[00:18:10] Imam Tariq: Mm. I know you said it took about eight years or so, but was there something that you could look at and say that this is, this is something that was put in me, or something I can recognize that prepared me for the transformative power of, of Islam? I

[00:18:26] Bro Saeed: think if I, if, if I had to identify, well, I mean, I grew up, again, I mentioned that my mother was, was involved in the church from my early years, from my very young.

[00:18:35] Bro Saeed: And so I was always there at the church. And when I say that, I don't say that to me. You know, they had to drag me into church and, you know, you know, we shoved me into class and things like that. I went willingly. Um, and even after confirmation, which for those who aren't familiar, um, in the, especially the Protestant church, I can't speak for the Catholic church.

[00:18:53] Bro Saeed: In the Protestant church, after you're confirmed, essentially you graduate Sunday school.

[00:18:58] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:58] Bro Saeed: Which is usually around ninth [00:19:00] grade. You don't see 'em again until they're getting married or having kids, hopefully in that order. But, um, in my case, I still was coming to church even after confirmation and so I was.

[00:19:12] Bro Saeed: Coming for the services. I would, not only that, um, I was staying afterwards and actually became basically the lead volunteer in the kitchen running the dishwashing, uh, station. So I was taught by the senior, senior in many respects, uh, head of the kitchen, and he taught me how to use the wholesome. It was a commercial dishwasher, so it was the rise and fall of the whole thing.

[00:19:37] Bro Saeed: The kind you see in the, the restaurants. Mm-hmm. So I ran that. And so I was the one in charge of that. So, um, if you know anything about the United Methodist Church, not only do they have their coffee and sweets after services, but then they're famous for their potlucks. And so if there was a potluck, I was there manning the kitchen as well.

[00:19:54] Bro Saeed: And so, you know, I got to know the whole area and everything else. So I was there regularly. You know, I, I helped [00:20:00] out with the Youth Sun, uh, Easter Services, stuff like that, et cetera, you know, and so I was doing all different kinds of that stuff, and I was very, I. I'm not, I don't say this to imply I was a perfect representation of Christianity, um, but I was a, a, a con convicted, practicing Christian.

[00:20:18] Bro Saeed: Um, so with all of the foibles and failures that every human being tends to have, but I was very much, that was a part of my identity. Um, one that I wrestled with, with the usual teen angst and all the kind of trouble we get into in our teens. Um, wrestled with that. Um, not successfully might I add, but I wrestled with it nonetheless, um, while trying to remain true to some degree to my faith.

[00:20:43] Bro Saeed: And that was even part of why, uh, as I said, the journey had started while I was still in high school as a teenager. And so I was walking, um, a mile two miles to this Pentecostal church, um, for the last maybe three to six [00:21:00] months of my senior year of high school, um, because I was going there and eventually got saved, which is a whole other conversation.

[00:21:07] Bro Saeed: Um, one that usually, uh, fascinated my students in the, uh, Sunday school program at the Islamic Center. 'cause that's a completely alien concept to Muslims. This idea of being saved. Not only that, but I told 'em, I said, I said, I passed out. And you're like, what? I'm like, no, no. It's like, let me explain. It's like, you gotta understand the context.

[00:21:24] Bro Saeed: But yes, I fell out, you know, I, I fell backwards. I, I lost control.

[00:21:29] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:29] Bro Saeed: Said by you. I put it in context for him a little bit. It's like you're talking about three hour services. The mothers of the church dancing and speaking in tongues. The pastor's nephew beating the tambourine so hard, his hand starts to bleed.

[00:21:41] Bro Saeed: They have to physic physically sitting down, you know, summer, no air conditioning, yada, yada, yada, yada. It's like, and the emotion and the this and the that. It's like, it's like, yes, I fell out. But you have to understand the emotional and and psychological context to understand that even without meaning to it.

[00:21:59] Bro Saeed: I didn't mean [00:22:00] to. You fall out just because you don't have control in that moment. Right. And so, you know, that was always a fascinating surfing. But so it was like, I was on that journey even from that point and that growing up, and then even for me, one of the catalysts to really make the pivot from the, the, the general journey I was on to the specific journey of looking at Islam came through the autobiography of Malcolm X, as many people do.

[00:22:26] Bro Saeed: For me, that was kind of a logical evolution of an earlier part of my journey that I was a, I was, for all intents and purposes, I was a student of the civil rights movement. Mm-hmm. As a, as a tweener teen. I was reading Garvey dubois, Washington King, you name it, I read it all. Mm-hmm. And I'm not saying like, like, like encyclopedia articles.

[00:22:52] Bro Saeed: I'm talking about their full books. Right. You know, I was digesting this stuff and I was very interested in it and [00:23:00] weirdly. The one thing I hadn't digested in all that time was Malcolm. 'cause even unconsciously, there seemed to be this sort of almost like a, like a, a boogeyman aspect to, to Malcolm. Mm-hmm.

[00:23:10] Bro Saeed: 'cause that was the black Muslims. That was this, this other stuff is, you know, it's like you don't go near that. But then as I was continuing on that journey, that became the next logical step because, uh, I alluded to the music industry being part of it, and I was, uh, early, early, for lack of a better sentence, adoptee of hip hop culture in, in our area and was very interested in it.

[00:23:35] Bro Saeed: And, um, so along that journey in the late eighties, early nineties, Islam, Malcolm were all prominent figures in the music.

[00:23:46] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:46] Bro Saeed: And so because of that, um, I was at a point in my journey where I was trying to figure out next steps. And so the idea to read his autobiography came to my mind. And so that's what I started to.

[00:23:58] Bro Saeed: [00:24:00] In, I think it's safe to say 89 or 90. Um, so that's reading his story, getting the whole story because pop culture at the time only gave kind of the black Muslim image of Malcolm and that whole phase and why and everything else, and skipped out of the later parts and the evolutions and everything else, et cetera.

[00:24:19] Bro Saeed: And so having read the whole story

[00:24:21] Imam Tariq: mm-hmm

[00:24:21] Bro Saeed: um, kind of opened my eyes to the totality of who Malcolm was and what he represented. And so that set me up to then go after completing that and seeing his journey at the end of, you know, coming to understand Orthodox Islam, making that conscious decision to shift and everything else.

[00:24:40] Bro Saeed: And going, okay, well now after having read that, what's my next step? And that was where the idea to get the Quran came in. And so that led me to pick up the Quran around 91, 90, 91. And I lucked out when I went to get a Quran. Um, I could have gone to, I don't remember if Barnes and Noble was around at that time, but Walden books was [00:25:00] around for sure.

[00:25:00] Bro Saeed: I know that. Yeah. Um, I didn't go to any of those. I went to a local African American bookstore in the neighborhood and picked up the only Quran they happened to have in stock turned out the Quran they had in stock without knowing. Again, again, this is a law's hand guiding things. Mm-hmm. Not knowing where the journey is going necessarily.

[00:25:22] Bro Saeed: Um, so I go to this bookstore, the only Quran they have on the shelf is this one Quran. I'm like, I came for Quran. That's a Quran. I guess that's what I'm getting. And it was a big one, so it wasn't cheap. I don't remember how much it was, but I know it wasn't cheap 'cause it was a big, thick hardback.

[00:25:36] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:37] Bro Saeed: Um, turned out I lucked out because the one I picked up happened to be the most popular English translation of the CRA in the Muslim world. Yusuf Ali.

[00:25:47] Imam Tariq: That's right.

[00:25:47] Bro Saeed: The original Yusuf Ali. Mm-hmm. And so I completely lucked out. I mean, I could have gotten NJ Daud, I could have gotten sales, I could have gotten any number of other translations mm-hmm.

[00:25:57] Bro Saeed: That had been done by non-Muslims that [00:26:00] had a very anti-Muslim rhetoric to it, et cetera. But I didn't, I wound up with the preeminent translation in the English language at that particular time with the commentary as well. So it was the full thing. So it was all of those footnotes, all the political interludes and everything else, et cetera.

[00:26:17] Bro Saeed: So that was my introduction to the Quran. And so I, I, I can't say I read it daily, but I read it consistently. And as with many people, that was again, part of that journey. And I, and many people have this experience, but there were days when I was having challenges with, with things in my life, whether mentally or, or in the real.

[00:26:43] Bro Saeed: Um, and I'd go to the book and I'd open it up randomly, wherever I'd left off. You know, no conscious reasoning as to where I was starting from. And lo and behold, the page I opened up to, uh, it was consistently, it was like the book was talking to me and it [00:27:00] was giving me the answers I needed, you know, like I was speaking up to the book.

[00:27:04] Bro Saeed: And so one of the questions, one of the only questions I could verbalize in any way, shape, or form that started my journey back in high school, the answer came to me in a similar fashion. So I'm opening the book and I'm reading through it, and I come across this verse that basically answered my question that I started with, which was the essence of it was essentially that as a Christian, um, looking at like the old, the Old Testament, the 10, the 10 Commandments, et cetera.

[00:27:30] Bro Saeed: If there are people out there that do all of these things we can think of as being righteous, they just don't call themselves Christian, right? How do we look at that? How do, how do we cope with that?

[00:27:42] Imam Tariq: You mean they don't call, they don't call themselves Muslims?

[00:27:46] Bro Saeed: No, no. I was Christian at the time, so, oh, I'm asking from that standpoint.

[00:27:49] Imam Tariq: I gotcha. I got

[00:27:49] Bro Saeed: you. So I'm looking at the, I'm looking at the 10 Commandments talking to my mother initially. 'cause she was my example. Right. You know, I'm asking her 'cause I trust her, you know, I trust her judgment, I trust her spirituality. Mm-hmm. I [00:28:00] might have a different answer now or that's a different conversation.

[00:28:03] Bro Saeed: Um, so I'm asking this, you know, so what do we, what do we do with this? You know, how do we respond to this? And she didn't really have answers, you know, she was honest. She was, you know, she was, she didn't try and make up an answer or anything else, but she, you know, she was honest. She didn't really have answer.

[00:28:16] Bro Saeed: At least I don't remember any answer. And so that was what kind of led on that journey is it's first visiting many different Christian denominations, spending some time with the Pentecostals, uh, which taught me something weirdly, and this is one of the things I learned, kind of hindsight being 2020. At the time you couldn't have told me why that was a stop on the journey.

[00:28:35] Bro Saeed: But looking back now, I look at it and I realize. The United Methodist Church has a very, um, nice book of stories, kind of attitude towards the Bible.

[00:28:45] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:46] Bro Saeed: They don't see it as the word of God per se. They don't see it as a law book. Seen more as history stories, things like that. And that was very much my experience going through Sunday School, was we were being told all these stories and [00:29:00] learning, you know, parables and things like that from it, but not really in the sense of a law book or something that was, you know, divine or anything like that.

[00:29:07] Bro Saeed: And so the Pentecostal Church on the other hand, has a very different approach, right? They're very much word of God, little word of God. This is the book you have to live by. The, the aunties, when they come to their church, they gotta have a hat on their head. They gotta be in dresses, no makeup, you know, the whole nine, et cetera.

[00:29:22] Bro Saeed: And so there's a certain expectations. And so that was a new approach to Revelation for me. And I realized later on that that was an informative step for me in reframing my relationship with Revel. Which I would argue now is directly in link with the Quran description of the prophet's mission. When it said yet to recite upon them your verses, your his verses, and that term, which is usually translated as a recitation, also bears the sense of following.

[00:29:56] Imam Tariq: Mm.

[00:29:56] Bro Saeed: Setting the Quran in front of you as a leader to [00:30:00] be followed. And so that sense of revelation being the very first thing that we should come to grips with and its importance in guiding us. Mm-hmm. That was something that, that experience I found out later on. I came to realize that it informed that aspect of my journey as well, that taking the book as a pri, as a primary source of guidance and of information and so that I realized retrospectively was an important step on that journey.

[00:30:30] Bro Saeed: And so that was one of those things that really. Primed me for that. The other one that primed me, one of the other aha moments before reading that verse was part of my theory when I continued on that journey after, after the church, um, with looking at other faiths, was the, the theory in the back of my mind was if there's something that seems to be a common factor amongst most or all of these different traditions that had to be significant somehow.

[00:30:58] Bro Saeed: Mm-hmm. [00:31:00] And so in the limited, you know, exposure that I had to other faiths and things like that, I was unconsciously or unconsciously looking for a common denominator. And the common denominator I felt that I fell upon was this, was that whether it's a philosophical tradition or a religious tradition.

[00:31:16] Bro Saeed: 'cause there's differences like DAOs and Confucianism, which were the two I invested more time and energy into, they're more philosophical. Some would argue Hinduism is more philosophy than religion. Long story short, all of them philosophical or, or metaphysical. They all come to a point where they have either a higher power or a higher being.

[00:31:36] Bro Saeed: There's a supreme ultimate in the hierarchy. What they do with that supreme ultimate after, as they go down, the structure varies, obviously, but that sense of a, a single solitary pinnacle existed throughout almost all of them. And so me, for me at that moment, it was like, aha, I found it. But then it's like, okay, now what?

[00:31:57] Bro Saeed: I had no idea what to do with that bit of information. I was [00:32:00] just like, aha. So files it away, don't know what to go with. Then of course, as I start to come into contact with s Islam, when I start to read the Quran in particular, and you see that central focus on tahi, on the oneness of God, and it, I still remember, um, I don't remember which one it was, but there was a documentary on PBS, uh, I can't remember the name of it right now.

[00:32:23] Bro Saeed: Um, but um, it was a orientalist was being interviewed in there in a segment asking about. Because speaking about t you know, tawheed isn't just, um, believing in one God. It's, it's only thinking about one God. Mm. It's, you know, not just the idols, but it's the idols in your mind as well. Removing all sorts of those things that create any sort of an association with God.

[00:32:47] Bro Saeed: And so, like one of the examples I think of from the sunna is the prophet correcting a man when he says, what are law wills? And you speaking to the prophet when he hears him say that it seems innocent.

[00:32:59] Imam Tariq: [00:33:00] Right.

[00:33:00] Bro Saeed: You know, when we hear that, we think, what's the problem here? But he's, this is the, the, the, the level of scrutiny and the, and the subtleness of this concept that I think oftentimes gets lost on people.

[00:33:10] Bro Saeed: The, the man out of sheer respect is saying, what a law wills, then you owe profit. He says, no, no, no, no, no. Don't say that. What a law wills then me. So let's make it a very clear hierarchy. Mm-hmm. He's like, there's a law and then there's me. It's not a law and me, it's not of me Then a law. You know, it's not three in one, one in three, none of this.

[00:33:31] Bro Saeed: It's a law. Then me, you know, I'm nowhere in there. It's like the laws uppermost don't even begin to equate me in. Your most subtle of speech don't even begin to equate me with him. That's why even, I'm sure you're familiar with this and some of the mess just probably still do this when you, when they have decorations in the message, sometimes if there's a law in Hammed mm-hmm.

[00:33:52] Bro Saeed: They'll make a point of making sure a law is slightly higher than Hammed, even visually.

[00:33:57] Imam Tariq: Yeah.

[00:33:58] Bro Saeed: So as to [00:34:00] avoid even that semblance of, now mind you, I'm in Texas now, so Texas is one of those examples where from a patriotic standpoint, most states you gotta have the American flag and then whatever state you're in, Texas might be the only state I don't know this for.

[00:34:15] Bro Saeed: Absolutely. But I think it might be the only state where it's the American flag and Texas side by side. That is the level of, it's like some special compensation they got, I don't know what it was, but they're able to fly their flags. Same level. Yeah. No one else can do that. It's seen as unpatriotic. I actually think there might be a law against it even.

[00:34:36] Bro Saeed: I don't know. But long story short, so much same thing. Mm-hmm. You know, it's like, like generally speaking, and again, these are these things I like to do with people when, because I'm in Dawa, I've been in Dawa most of my, most of my time as a Muslim. I've been teaching for 30 years, you know, and I started with 1 0 1, so I was teaching brand new Muslims, non-Muslims about Islam for 30 years and through multiple states, [00:35:00] institutions, multiple settings.

[00:35:02] Bro Saeed: And so I try to frame it for them in a way that they understand.

[00:35:06] Imam Tariq: Well you, you've covered a lot of really interesting points and I'm interested to see how those things connect, how you see them connecting, especially in light of. Uh, uh, Dawa. Right. So you talked about mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, and people, a lot of people didn't recognize that they were on the receiving end of Dawa throughout the mid eighties, early nineties and hip hop.

[00:35:27] Imam Tariq: Right. And, and Right. And it might not have, it might not have been anything more than hearing the word Allah, you know, in a song. Exactly. Hearing Islam. Exactly. Um, and seeing people taking on, uh, names. Uh, so the public, the public display, and then of course, not even to mention Right. The autobiography of Malcolm X and it coming to the screen.

[00:35:50] Imam Tariq: Yeah. Absolutely. Can you, absolutely. Can you talk about what are some of the things in terms of the, the, the continuity or the repetition of the [00:36:00] message, how you received it, your investigation of it, and how, how that has impacted your understanding of d.

[00:36:11] Bro Saeed: So for me that's a, that's an interesting little, uh, thing because like I said, I've worked in Dawa for all intents and purposes for almost 30 years now, and across different organizations and things like that.

[00:36:24] Bro Saeed: Um, why Islam? Uh, embrace. I was, uh, part of Embrace very early on actually, uh, Josie McKenzie who founded it, it was one of my teachers and the, the week he started it in Dallas, I moved here the week after that. And so he came to my house for dinner and while we were there, he was telling me about it. He said, you should come, come and see it.

[00:36:49] Bro Saeed: So I started attending at the very next week and long, not long after I'd started attending, he had me helping him with teaching responsibilities. So I was involved right from the very beginning. So it was interesting to see it become [00:37:00] what has become now. But, so for Dowell purposes, my approach, often when I'm training people, I tell 'em, I said, look, I said, there's more than one approach you'll see people take to.

[00:37:09] Bro Saeed: Uh, I've been involved in probably most of the different formats and styles. I've trained with different organizations and individuals in Dawa. 'cause again, I'm a student and no less so in Dawa is, I have my very clear ideas about it, but I try to listen to, and learn and take from, from all the different sources to help inform that approach and fine tune it.

[00:37:33] Bro Saeed: Um, so my, my, my journey in itself, uh, I, I think you, you hit upon it maybe without even knowing it, um, does inform my approach. I would say that probably is true of many people, uh, consciously or unconsciously. So I was very much on a journey, a very self-guided journey. Uh, there wasn't a personality, an individual, an organization that was strongly involved in influencing my journey.

[00:37:58] Bro Saeed: My journey was very [00:38:00] self-guided because of that, for lack of a better way of saying this, shall we say, I, I, I put some trust in my audience. And this is true even when I'm teaching, but, and not just in, in, in outreach. Um, my goal is to pl plant seeds.

[00:38:17] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:18] Bro Saeed: One, one of the, one of the challenges I have with people in the conversation, Iman, at our Islamic center and I have had before, is shahadah.

[00:38:28] Bro Saeed: While emotion can be a definite catalyst for the beginning of that process, it, it cannot carry the process 'cause emotion's. Tired. That's right. Emotions aren't maintainable. Mm-hmm. And so while emotion might set you in motion that was unintended emotion might get you going. Um, it's conscious deliberation and, and, and, and an inquiring mind that are gonna maintain it and allow it to grow.

[00:38:58] Bro Saeed: And so my goal is to plant [00:39:00] seeds in people to kind of spark that curiosity. Um. I have no concern whatsoever. If I, when I'm talking to somebody that I don't get a shaha on, I'm not even trying to do that. If it comes, fine, I'm, I'm not opposed to it by any means, but I'm not gonna push

[00:39:19] Imam Tariq: mm-hmm.

[00:39:19] Bro Saeed: For it. I'm gonna trust that when somebody's ready, they, you know, they don't, I don't have to be the one that, that there's an obsession with.

[00:39:28] Bro Saeed: How many shehadh have you given?

[00:39:30] Imam Tariq: Mm,

[00:39:31] Bro Saeed: I've given a few. I'm not gonna quote numbers A, because I don't know the numbers. B, because the numbers don't matter. What matters is how many of them have stuck around?

[00:39:40] Imam Tariq: Yes.

[00:39:41] Bro Saeed: You know this, know this as well. How many stuck around, how many have become, you know, contributing members of the uma?

[00:39:48] Bro Saeed: Mm-hmm. How many have you know? I mean, a lot of the people you've interviewed are representative of that, that minority of that group that have become contributing members that are continuing to try and grow [00:40:00] and give back. Going back to something I said earlier, so I'm not concerned about that. My goal, and one of the things I do with my, my, uh, volunteers at Dawa Booth, et cetera.

[00:40:09] Bro Saeed: So I say, look, my approach is not gonna be the same as everybody else. I said, but here's the thing. I said, if you, when you're standing at a DAO booth in particular, or you're dressed visibly Muslim, if somebody comes to you and all you're able to do is ask 'em, Hey, how you doing? You know, normal, everyday chitchat you might have with somebody on the, on the bus stop or wherever you are, et cetera, in line, et cetera.

[00:40:33] Bro Saeed: That's all you do. You don't ever really talk about religion. Maybe they don't pick up a Quran, they don't get a brochure. Um, but you have a good conversation. You both are smiling, you're laughing. Good times. They walk away positive vibes. Tell 'em. I say, that's a win. That's a win. And the reason I, I say that anecdotally because I've seen it.

[00:40:54] Bro Saeed: Mm-hmm. BI say it also because of, of statistics, and this is, this is again, going back [00:41:00] to this idea of being a constant learner and learning from multiple places. Is there's an exceptionally valuable book called What A Billion Muslims Really Think. Moga, John Esposito. They did a, I wanna say Pew Research was involved in this, I can't remember exactly, but they did a statistical survey of Muslims worldwide.

[00:41:20] Bro Saeed: And amongst the outcomes of that survey was, and I'm, I'm quoting from memory so that the, the numbers might not be exactly right, but that there was this effectively a 70% shift in attitudes towards Muslims just by getting to know a Muslim.

[00:41:35] Imam Tariq: Yeah,

[00:41:37] Bro Saeed: by coming in contact with and people, for us, it's weird because we live in this space, it's like, no, there's a lot of people that never have stood face to face with a Muslim and had a conversation.

[00:41:50] Imam Tariq: That's right.

[00:41:51] Bro Saeed: You know, their only experience is on the news or in the movies or whatever. Not always great representations of who we are. [00:42:00] And so that alone, having a positive impact, being visibly Muslim without having done any of this preaching or any of this other stuff, or going for that 10 minute shahada, whole other conversation, that's a hugely valuable tool.

[00:42:17] Bro Saeed: And that right there alone, and I try to help people understand. I say, look, I said they go away with a positive attitude to someone who's visibly Muslim. Mm-hmm. Who's clearly, you know, they're representing Islam, there's Qurans, there's Islamic brochures, there's maybe Quran playing in the background, whatever, whatever.

[00:42:33] Bro Saeed: There's all these things that make it clear that this is visibly an Islamic space and you don't necessarily talk about any of that. It's right there. They go away. They're having a really positive vibe. That alone, speaking more to a practicality assembly, plants a seed. Going back to that now, trying to say a seed in their heart that when they see a Muslim again, where they see a Quran, again, that's an association they make almost unconsciously.

[00:42:57] Bro Saeed: That then opens that door a little bit [00:43:00] further and allows them to move a little further on that journey. We get obsessed with thinking we have to go from zero to finish

[00:43:06] Imam Tariq: mm-hmm.

[00:43:07] Bro Saeed: In the first interaction. And yeah, it does happen, but a lot of times I don't think we know what might have transpired before us first, second harassing.

[00:43:21] Bro Saeed: Are those Shahad or those, those pivotal moments many times.

[00:43:26] Imam Tariq: Mm.

[00:43:27] Bro Saeed: We're obsessed with the, the, the, the instant victories, the quick wins, the, you know, the highlight reel. It's like, let's get past the highlight reels. And so talking about a lifelong, you know, lifelong journey because that's what it is. You don't wanna set somebody eight for a quick shahadah that they then falter with and stumble because they weren't ready.

[00:43:46] Imam Tariq: Right.

[00:43:46] Bro Saeed: For the commitments. And it is a commitment.

[00:43:48] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:48] Bro Saeed: And when we don't under help people understand that. We already are setting them up for failure. And one of the things I tell people about this approach that DA was, look, so a lot of the times when you see these shahadah, [00:44:00] what they've done is they've gotten somebody to agree to that there's only one God, but God one, God, even Christians, even, even probably Buddhists and Hindus and everyone else would say that.

[00:44:13] Bro Saeed: So getting somebody to say that from even the most basic standpoint isn't really that hard. The part you often don't hear people have the conversation about is Muhammad. So people don't understand the importance of Muhammad. Don't un don't accept it. Many times I remember a conversation I had at the Minnesota State Fair and that on that very issue with somebody, that the brothers at the table thought that they were ready for shaah.

[00:44:40] Bro Saeed: And I started talking to 'em for five minutes 'cause I was walking out the door.

[00:44:42] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:43] Bro Saeed: And they were like, can you help us? We're like, okay, hang on, let me talk to her real quick. We, five minutes after talking to these, these young guys, I was like. They need to learn more about Mohammed. It's like, I got my kids, I gotta go.

[00:44:54] Bro Saeed: This is where you need to start off, right? Because this is the thing. Many times we'll do the whole [00:45:00] conversation, which is an important conversation. But the reality is, is that's not a hard concept for most people. That thing's imprinted in our DNA spiritually and biologically. But ham is a different conversation,

[00:45:16] Imam Tariq: right?

[00:45:17] Bro Saeed: Ham is one that is not a natural transition for most people. That's the one that requires working. That's the one that oftentimes doesn't get focused. And so if you get a shahada that doesn't really deal with that aspect of it, what have you actually gotten 'em to say yes to?

[00:45:33] Imam Tariq: Let me ask you this. Um, I guess going back to some of the movements and the, the personalities that have been instrumental.

[00:45:44] Imam Tariq: And popularizing Islam. And you mentioned, you know, the, the Nation of Islam under the, the leadership of, uh, entourage Muhammad. Yeah. Uh, succeeded by so Maw Muhammad. Mm-hmm. When we think about Dawa and we think about [00:46:00] Islam as a means of transformation, people recognizing their inherent human dignity, their responsibilities that they have to themselves and those around them, and as well to society.

[00:46:11] Imam Tariq: And we're talking about something within the, the sciences, uh, Tesia. We're thinking about the idea of purification. Now we're not talking about, we're not, well, I'm not talking about in particular doctrine. I'm talking about a transformation, a purification that can be seen in the public space. What are your thoughts around the connection of Dawa to that particular outcome?

[00:46:38] Imam Tariq: Do you feel that there has been, in some instances. Kind of a bifurcation or a separation between just getting someone to take the shaah and, uh, as opposed to what does this person's life look like? The, the difference that, right, that should come about right from this [00:47:00] profession of faith. Do you feel like there's, that some of that has been watered down or maybe lost in some instances?

[00:47:06] Bro Saeed: Well, I think one of the things, going, going back to a couple things you just said, like, you talk about the, the transformation in individuals, et cetera. Um, say whatever you will, um, about the nation of Islam, exceptionally well as we know, is transform individuals. Malcolm is of course the, the, the, the star of that, that show.

[00:47:29] Bro Saeed: But many people that entered into the nation were coming out of very tough situations, very tough backgrounds, addictions, you know, whatever, all kinds of difficulties, et cetera. And they made massive transformations in individuals' lives. Even if you wanna leave aside theology by itself and just look at that, that was something they did exceptionally well.

[00:47:53] Bro Saeed: And, and in Islam, we, we should never be shy from acknowledging [00:48:00] good where we see it.

[00:48:01] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:02] Bro Saeed: You know, that doesn't mean that we, we get a blanket, you know, accepted some things, but when there's things that are positive about a certain community, we need to be able to recognize that, you know, and that, and one of the strongest strengths that they had was that, is that they were capable of taking people that most of society, including sometimes their own communities, had written off.

[00:48:22] Bro Saeed: Mm-hmm. And they transformed them. And it was a transformation that stuck even outside. You know, and the discipline and the rigor and the ary physiologically, the way they carry themselves, their respect for law, even if they disagree with the law. Mm-hmm. The respect for the law, et cetera. Going to wd Mohamed, his community, from my experience and the c the, the, the maji I, I had taken my shahada in, um, when I first started going there was, was under W War Lee Mohammed.

[00:48:54] Bro Saeed: The transition shifted to a, a slightly different, different leadership. And so it was under a slightly different leadership, [00:49:00] but I was familiar with it from that. And my, my wife at the time, uh, uh, shortly after converting, she had come out of that tradition. So I would've had, you know, very, very good insights into the, the journey of it, et cetera.

[00:49:12] Bro Saeed: So one of the things in particular that they, they did and continue to do exceptionally well, is the social justice and social services types of types of efforts. Some of the community, the, the statute here that are, that are part of that c. Are, you know, at the forefront of serving the most disadvantaged parts of society, et cetera.

[00:49:30] Bro Saeed: And those are aspects that are necessary. And again, like you said, it's not simply, you know, to give a man a fish he eats for a day. Mm-hmm. You know, it's, you know, the example we have of the prophets sell is that the idea of the man that came to him looking for help and he told him to go sell his shirt so he could buy an ax.

[00:49:50] Bro Saeed: And then he goes, he gets the ax, he's able to chop wood, now he's able to sell the wood, and now he's able to provide for himself, for his family, et cetera. So rather than giving a [00:50:00] temporary solution of a, of a morsel of bread or whatever, you know, a dear him or something, he gives him an avocation mm-hmm.

[00:50:07] Bro Saeed: That's able to, you know, provide for him. You know, give a man a fish, he eats for a day, teach a man to fish. Yeah. He's full, which is essentially what that lesson is. Mm-hmm. You know, arrested development was not the first one to coin that, that whole thing. It was like, that goes back to the hip hop history.

[00:50:22] Bro Saeed: It is a long story. But so, you know, it's this idea is that, is that even the prophets example, and I think this has become very much lost on many of our communities. Um, the volunteerism, the idea of being of service to society. One of my favorite quotes from the prophets, so I saw when I use a lot in my own work and outreach in particular, and I'm, I'm, I'm paraphrasing it slightly here, but essentially that the most beloved of humanity to a law, you already know.

[00:50:50] Bro Saeed: It, I can tell most beloved of humanity to a law are the most beneficial That's right. To humanity. Mm-hmm. It's important to pay attention to the wording here. [00:51:00] The Arabic is very clear law.

[00:51:05] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:06] Bro Saeed: Of humanity. Not

[00:51:10] Imam Tariq: That's right.

[00:51:11] Bro Saeed: No, no, no, no, no. Not believers. Not Muslims. Mo of people. That's right to Allah.

[00:51:17] Bro Saeed: Not little movement, not little Muslim. The ness. To people, not to Muslims, not to believers, but to people. That's right. Doesn't matter. Their faith doesn't matter, you know, rich, poor, whatever, doesn't matter. Mm-hmm. You know, we shouldn't even be concerned about is there a payoff for me? Is there anything like that?

[00:51:37] Bro Saeed: Truthfully, when we, when we turn our good works, and this is something that I think has become a problem, and I say this to myself first and foremost, when we allow our good works to become transactional.

[00:51:46] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:47] Bro Saeed: Even if it's about trying to transact with a law, it's like, yes, we know a law is, you know, and, you know, and everything else, et cetera, but it's like you don't wanna do it because of transactions.

[00:51:59] Bro Saeed: It gets [00:52:00] to a high concept within, uh, tsia and, and, and, uh, the whole issue of ALA and things like that. But this idea that yes, all law is, you know, giving a law is generous, Allah is all of these things, but we do it out of a love for a law. That's where it's supposed to come from. Not ex not, not doing it only because of the reward.

[00:52:21] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:22] Bro Saeed: But doing it because we love the rewarder.

[00:52:24] Imam Tariq: That's right.

[00:52:26] Bro Saeed: Whether he gives us or he doesn't give us mm-hmm. Understanding that him not giving us is, is merciful to us. Even though we, we may struggle to see that sometimes if he isn't given this something, it's because he knows somewhere in his wisdom either that's not the right thing for you, or this isn't the right time for that thing.

[00:52:44] Imam Tariq: Right.

[00:52:45] Bro Saeed: That's a really hard lesson to learn. Again, that's that knowing it here, which many of us understand it at some level intellectually, but really letting it sink into our hearts where it becomes [00:53:00] a truth inside of us. That transition, even though it's, you know, 12 to 18 inches, whatever you want to call it, et cetera, that's the longest 12 to 18 inches into the human, human existence.

[00:53:13] Bro Saeed: Yeah. There is no getting over that transition. That is the hardest transition.

[00:53:19] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:20] Bro Saeed: There's so many things we can learn here that we spend a lifetime and you, you find many of the sages, many of the scholars and the saints side question about whether that's a good term to use. Right. But many of these righteous, righteous, I got you.

[00:53:34] Bro Saeed: I got you. Any single one of these things, I could literally go for 30 minutes on. That's why I gotta like just, no, stay here, stay here. I'm with you. But any one of these people, you can find statements from them essentially saying the same thing about how they struggle with these things sometimes. Mm-hmm.

[00:53:53] Bro Saeed: These are paragons people that are spoken, people that are spoken of in whispered [00:54:00] tones that are saying, this is essentially, I'm paraphrasing a lot, essentially this is hard. You know what I'm saying? I mean, we. W we, we've done so much at times to oversimplify and times to overcomplicate. You know, we, we, we've buried this idea that this is hard.

[00:54:23] Bro Saeed: Sometimes people will ask me a question sometimes and I'll be like, every, like, you know, I'll give 'em the answer. And the answer seems really simple because it might be like one sentence is the answer to the question. I'm like, it's that easy. But it's also that hard. Yeah. 'cause the sentence can go here, but the meaning and the, and the significance and the impact of that sentence to reach here to the heart, it can go to the head.

[00:54:44] Bro Saeed: But to get to that heart, that's a whole other journey. That can be a lifetime journey.

[00:54:50] Imam Tariq: Yeah. It's a lot of intentionality and it's not a microwave journey. It's a, it's a slow and a steady process.

[00:54:58] Bro Saeed: Yeah. This is, this is a co [00:55:00] crock pot cooker journey. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:55:02] Imam Tariq: Tell us about, tell us a bit about Brother Saeed, uh, consulting and.

[00:55:07] Imam Tariq: How did that come about and what do you plan to, what, what's, what's the goal? Well,

[00:55:11] Bro Saeed: it, it, it, it, it was, it was kind of, for lack of a better way of saying this, forced on me, uh, there was a lot of color kicking in, basically. Mm-hmm. So I was, I, I, I still am technically working for the Islamic Center of Irving here in Texas.

[00:55:26] Bro Saeed: Mm-hmm. Um, I had been a regular employee with 'em, uh, full time and got, and when leadership changed, as it often does in our organizations, my hours were getting cut progressively. And then the decision was made for various reasons that they needed to transition me out of being a direct employee to make me a contractor.

[00:55:46] Imam Tariq: Okay.

[00:55:47] Bro Saeed: And so part of how that got presented to me was to create this LLC so that they could essentially. Have me get my own insurance, but they would reimburse me for the [00:56:00] insurance. And so that was how that initially got created. And so the name came together. The reason I chose the name that I did is there was a very, it's not a, like a haphazard decision.

[00:56:09] Bro Saeed: I chose that particular name. Brother Sayed Consulting is, you're the first person to get it right. Money people. I go on Zoom calls now and people think the first name is bro. Like, it's like, it makes me laugh. I'm like, how is that not obvious? How is that not obvious or whatever. So I deliberately did that because, you know, I, I've been called in various spaces, you know, between, from Sheik to Iam, to this, to that, the other thing, you know, and I serve as an IAM in the Islamic Center very, right now.

[00:56:38] Bro Saeed: I, I'm referred to by, by my teachers who are themselves, you know, you know major figures of knowledge as sheikh. So I can't argue that point, even though I'd like to. Mm-hmm. Um, but I don't like to lean on titles. For a lot of different reasons. So I deliberately chose bro SAE because I wanted an informality to the, the image.

[00:56:59] Imam Tariq: [00:57:00] Hmm.

[00:57:00] Bro Saeed: Because my style, as you can tell, I mean, this is not very different than me giving a, given a lecture. Uh, well, I am not, I'm not even kidding. This is very similar to me giving a lecture. Mm-hmm. Although you've missed out on all the comic book references and, and, and pop culture references that I usually will make.

[00:57:14] Bro Saeed: Um, we

[00:57:14] Imam Tariq: need those. But so I like,

[00:57:16] Bro Saeed: I like to, I like to, I like to lean into the informality. Yeah. Now I say that, well, I'm, I'm, I'm, I have a reputation for overexplaining things, and part of it's because in 32 plus years, and, you know, in odd number of years with, with studies, there's a lot that's up here.

[00:57:33] Bro Saeed: Mm-hmm. And so you flip a switch. I mean, that's like where I had to stop myself from going off on various tangents. There's a lot of stuff up here. So if I flip a particular switch, there's a whole rack of quarters that are gonna come out. If I don't stop, they can stop the flow. So it's like I can easily go off tangent very, very quickly.

[00:57:52] Bro Saeed: And so it's like, I, I, people ask me a question, I'll give 'em a through Z in the answer. And then when [00:58:00] the time comes from q and a at the end of the lecture, it's like everybody's like, I all, I guess I answered all y'all questions. And the thing is actually a lot of times I did, because I over explained everything.

[00:58:11] Bro Saeed: So even the people leading the program are like, that was a lot. I'm like, sorry. It's like, I don't know how else to do it. It's like, I don't know how else to do it. But I mean, but again, I try to, even in that, even in, you know, and I'm very meticulous about, especially Hadith, 'cause Haddi is the area of my, my primary specialization.

[00:58:32] Bro Saeed: Okay. Um, so I'm very meticulous about, you'll hear me quoting stuff all the time, you know, and if I have the time to prep something, I have like, you know, very detailed notes for myself. Especially on the, the primary references. And so it's like I'm throwing out a bunch of stuff at people and I'm pulling from multiple sources, a lot of 'em, classical, sometimes contemporary, a lot of times again, a lot of pop culture references, comic books, movies, sci-fi, you name it, it'll all [00:59:00] get in there because I don't try, I don't try to pretend.

[00:59:04] Bro Saeed: I forget if actually, no, actually Safe mentioned it too. I remember this now when he was first learning about intersectionality. Mm-hmm. And, and I think that's something that's converts in particular sometimes we struggle with is we, we, we sometimes try to overcompensate. And I definitely had my history of overcompensation.

[00:59:22] Bro Saeed: Um, but I'm trying to, part of, and the bro part is trying to lean into that is all of the unique qualities that make me, me. So you may or may not have seen recently, one of the, uh, monikers I've given myself recently on some of my social media platforms is the Muslim Highlander. Mm. Because I have a prominent.

[00:59:41] Bro Saeed: Scottish background, and I'm actually a formal member of the K Clam Buchanan. And so I lean into that. And so like some of the photos for that profile, those profiles are me in a kilt

[00:59:53] Imam Tariq: mm-hmm.

[00:59:54] Bro Saeed: With a leather jacket and a cup of tea. And so that's me in the Highlands. And [01:00:00] so it's like I have these various images that I'm putting forward.

[01:00:02] Bro Saeed: And then I also, another part that I'm still trying to navigate is I was born with a rare metabolic condition

[01:00:07] Imam Tariq: before you move off the, the Muslim Highlander. I, I am, I'm obligated, I'm obligated to make this reference. Um, I, I guess it would go without saying that there can be only one. Yes, absolutely. Are, are younger.

[01:00:24] Imam Tariq: If there can be only one, if you've gotten younger, uh, folks, they will definitely not get that. That's a whole other conversation. Yeah. I love the movie. But anyway, go, go right ahead. You were saying that you had a, a rare metabolic.

[01:00:34] Bro Saeed: Rare metabolic. Yeah. I was born with a condition. Um, that in the United States, there's maybe 17,000 of us, uh, that have this condition.

[01:00:44] Bro Saeed: So it's very rare. Um, and effectively it means that the body does not process protein properly and, uh, and in adulthood it can lead to severe neurocognitive challenges. So [01:01:00] thinking executive function, emotional control, things like that. Um, so that was something that I, I mean, I've always known because I was born with it and I was diagnosed within few days of my birth.

[01:01:10] Bro Saeed: Mm-hmm. But prevailing wisdom had me go off the special diet they had us on, uh, as children. And I effectively didn't go back on diet or any sort of regimen for 40 years. So I did effectively, I did 40 years of damage and only recently, in the last, just over three years or so, started to try and manage it again.

[01:01:36] Bro Saeed: And so. I'm progressively leaning more and more into that aspect of who I am and meeting others like myself the same age, some of whom saying similar stories and learning a lot about myself and my journey and the, the what the journey could have been for me. Oftentimes when I was younger, knowing what I knew about how it could have affected me as a [01:02:00] child.

[01:02:00] Bro Saeed: As a child, you can be severely mentally and physically retarded.

[01:02:03] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

[01:02:04] Bro Saeed: If it's not handled right away. And so when I would be out and I would see retarded children, for me, it hit me very differently. 'cause for me it was like looking in a mirror of an alternate reality. It's like this could have been me in a very real way, not like some weird, abstract, alternate future.

[01:02:23] Bro Saeed: This is me if one thing went differently. Right. Because like for instance, the name I chose site. Mm-hmm. Blessed is one of the meanings, I would argue, the primary meaning, but that's a, a separate conversation. But the reason I chose it was very specific and it's related to this. So when I was born, my mother and my father had moved to Miami, Florida relatively recently, like within a month or two.

[01:02:47] Bro Saeed: Mm-hmm. She was very pregnant with me and so needed to find a, you know, a doctor right away to, you know, oversee the last stages of her pregnancy. So she was brand new to Florida, Miami, Florida. Um, didn't know anybody. [01:03:00] So the way she tells the story is she goes to the, to the Yellow Pages, the phone book, dating it.

[01:03:05] Bro Saeed: I know. But goes to the phone book, opens up the phone book, and starts looking through the phone book at doctors' names, looking for, in her words, a good German

[01:03:12] Imam Tariq: name. Mm-hmm.

[01:03:13] Bro Saeed: She's essentially a hundred, well she's not a hundred percent German, but she's very German. Um, and so she's looking for a good German name.

[01:03:20] Bro Saeed: That was her decision making criteria. So she finds what she considers a good German name. Mm-hmm. That becomes the man that eventually delivers, delivers me and. Come to find out this man is the only man in Florida testing for this condition at that time. Wow. So however many doctors you can think of in Florida in 69.

[01:03:44] Bro Saeed: Mm-hmm. This is the only one in Florida doing it because it is not mandated at this time. This is the heel prick test that we all take for granted now. It was not mandated back at that time, and he was the only guy doing it. So that was the doctor that delivered me. He, he ran the test on [01:04:00] me within a few days of my birth.

[01:04:01] Bro Saeed: He contacted her to say, Hey, your son has PKU pheno Ria. Your son has this PKU. This is what needs to happen. So I couldn't drink her milk. I couldn't have protein. She had to make a special god awful formula. She had to bake bread special for me. She had to do all this stuff for me growing up so that I could eat because I couldn't have regular stuff.

[01:04:25] Imam Tariq: Mm.

[01:04:26] Bro Saeed: It's a very strict diet. And so she went through all of this for like eight years before they took me off diet. She still watched my diet after that, but you know, it wasn't as strict. Um, but that was, that was the situation. So out of all that, so she refers to that. So when she talked about that story early, early on, she would describe me as blessed.

[01:04:46] Bro Saeed: So when I was reading the Quran still before I, I think it was before I'd become Muslim, even, I came across Sayeed in the text and in the footnotes and the use of Ali. They explained terms sometimes and Sayeed was explained in the [01:05:00] footnotes. And when I saw the explanation, I'm like, that's the one. Hmm. So that was the name I chose.

[01:05:06] Bro Saeed: And weirdly, so when I first converted, I was, the community I was in encourage you to change your name. So when I went to change my name legally, which you did, you don't technically have to do, but it, no you

[01:05:17] Imam Tariq: don't.

[01:05:18] Bro Saeed: It was what I decided to do from conscious reasons. 'cause I wanted to have a clean break with my past.

[01:05:24] Bro Saeed: But when I went to change my name, I changed everything. I changed first, middle, and last. So this led to some interesting conversations a few years later, because when I would go on job interviews, back in the old days, there weren't Zoom calls and stuff like that. You'd sent a resume, faceless name, you know, they know nothing else and go there, and they, they all, they have to go on is your resume.

[01:05:45] Bro Saeed: So I walked in on a couple of interviews and they're like, we were expecting a Pakistani, because my name at the time on paper was Saeed Pida, a very Pakistani sounding name. And so I'd walk in white boy, [01:06:00] they're looking for a packing. And I was like, sorry to disappoint you. It's like, but, so I was, that was my situation.

[01:06:07] Bro Saeed: But eventually I changed my name, uh, back more in lines with Islamic, uh, teachings around name, name conventions. And so I, I kept the first name. So I could've, I could've changed that, but I changed, all I did was change the spelling. Right. But then I took my father's name as my middle name and kept the family name.

[01:06:23] Bro Saeed: Yeah. And so I put it more in lines with what it should be, et cetera. So, but yeah, so I mean, that was the process, et cetera. But so Sayeed was something that stuck with me, and that one stayed the course even through the multiple name changes, et cetera. And so that itself has a, has a significance, you know, and it speaks to that journey as well, if this is, you know, so again, I try not to lose things in there.

[01:06:47] Bro Saeed: It's like even the name is a reference to my, my beginnings, you know? And many things along the way, the Muslim lander is leaning into certain aspects of my identity. I'm still figuring, love that, figuring out how to try to, I love that. Incorporate the PKU part. Yeah. [01:07:00] Well, to be honest, that was, that was me competing with a local, or used to be a local Yusef Estee son, brand

[01:07:06] Imam Tariq: new.

[01:07:06] Imam Tariq: Oh, okay.

[01:07:06] Bro Saeed: Um, the Muslim cowboy. Yeah. Um, and so I saw him when he was, he was, uh, going for the Rwanda trip. Then I was going to go on with, uh, IRA and just couldn't get the funds pulled together. So when I saw his, his name, I was like, Muslim cowboy. I'm like, I like that. I was like, how could I use that? I was like, Muslim Highlander.

[01:07:29] Bro Saeed: I was like, I don't think there's a Muslim Highlander out there. I was like, let's go with that. And I could think of a whole bunch of ways to use it. I was like, okay, we're going with that. What the, so,

[01:07:37] Imam Tariq: so there

[01:07:38] Bro Saeed: we

[01:07:38] Imam Tariq: go. So I want to, uh, start winding now by asking a, um, kind of an open-ended question, but before I get to the open-ended question, 'cause I really wanna, I think I wanna exit on that note on this open-ended question.

[01:07:50] Imam Tariq: Um, but you're a brave one. Um, and it's really nice. It's nice, it's not so much an open ended 'cause you've listened to, you've listened to a couple and you [01:08:00] know, I like to do these, you know, kind of finish, finish the prompt, you know, finish the sentence.

[01:08:05] Bro Saeed: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But

[01:08:06] Imam Tariq: before we get to that, where can folks keep up with you on social media?

[01:08:11] Imam Tariq: I know you're on Substack. I know you're on LinkedIn. Mm-hmm. But are there any other places and just kind of name those spaces so that people can stay in touch. Okay. So you,

[01:08:21] Bro Saeed: you can find, you can find the Muslim Highlander on YouTube and TikTok. Okay. Um, I believe it is bro. Saeed on Instagram and, and, uh, x Okay.

[01:08:38] Bro Saeed: Site personal on, uh, Facebook. And yes, you mentioned LinkedIn. LinkedIn is probably my primary, uh, space. Um, and then Substack, I'm still flirting with expanding Substack 'cause there seems to be some good opportunities on Substack. I'm still kind of learning the ropes on that one. Yeah,

[01:08:55] Imam Tariq: yeah.

[01:08:56] Bro Saeed: But I know you're, you're there.

[01:08:57] Bro Saeed: I saw, I saw the recent, recent, uh, article that [01:09:00] you put put out there Yeah. This morning as well. Yeah. Yeah. I am. That was an interesting reflection by the way.

[01:09:05] Imam Tariq: Uh, yeah. You know, you know, you look to try to prompt, throw a little discussion, you know, get, get, get some thoughts going. Mm-hmm. Um, you, you talking about the one about the graves?

[01:09:16] Imam Tariq: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah. That, that is one of my, um, uh, it sounds odd to people who are not familiar with our tradition. And I don't always lead off, I don't always lead off with the Islamic roots of what I'm doing. 'cause I'm, my, my audience is Right, right. Um, you know, I'm, I'm trying to think of a little broader.

[01:09:35] Imam Tariq: Yeah, a bit broader, but the sentiment of the graves and, um, you know, what that means, it has become a very, uh, a healing space for me. It's a, it's a centering space. Mm-hmm. So, um, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I, I could go off, but anyway, uh, so here's the prompt. Here's the prompt. I am most [01:10:00] surprised by my what? Hmm.

[01:10:10] Bro Saeed: I'm most surprised by the happiness I have in my life right now.

[01:10:15] Imam Tariq: Mm.

[01:10:16] Bro Saeed: I've been through a lot of ups and downs, um, in many different spaces. I've been married, depending on how you count five or seven times, depending on how you count. I say that because one of my, one of my wives, we remarried twice. Mm-hmm.

[01:10:35] Bro Saeed: So I've been married to five different women, but remarried. One of them three, married to that one three times. Mm-hmm. Uh, so I've been through a lot and obviously there's the ups and the downs. I go with that, et cetera. Um, three children each from a different marriage. Um, actually not, not on speaking terms with two of them, their decision, not mine, uh, not [01:11:00] on, not on speaking terms with one of the exes.

[01:11:04] Bro Saeed: Um, trying not to speak to another one. That's all of the conversation. But, um, the, my, my current wife who, um, um, just over eight years with her now, and for me, that's a personal record.

[01:11:17] Imam Tariq: Bless,

[01:11:18] Bro Saeed: uh, which in and of itself, which in and of itself is, is huge. Um, we're still as happy as you could ask for the, the evolving, you know, space that is a relationship, uh, but still very happy.

[01:11:33] Bro Saeed: We actually, uh, and this is gonna be, uh, sharing some very, very current information. We, we just got back not two days ago, um, from over a hundred hours in the hospital.

[01:11:46] Imam Tariq: Mm.

[01:11:46] Bro Saeed: Um, she had to be admitted to the hospital and long story short, we were in the hospital continuously. When I say that, when I say we, I do mean we, 'cause I made, I've made a conscious decision.

[01:11:58] Bro Saeed: When she is goes to the [01:12:00] hospital, I do not leave unless it's with her. So I sleep there, I sleep there, whatever that means. I was fortunate, this room we had this time around was very, very comfortable in comparison, but still not comfortable. Yeah. But you know, I stay with her. I stay with her. So I'm there.

[01:12:17] Bro Saeed: And thankfully this was one of the less traumatic times in the hospital than they've been in the past. But, so just finished that. So that was a whole experience, but still very happy still, you know, just so many things about that relationship. Um, in spite of some of the challenges I'm having professionally, still in a very good place professionally, this, you, this opportunity was, you know, a, a, a true, you know, blessing from a law to have this opportunity, um, some other things on the horizon with, um, mass and with, uh, res reconnects out of the New York mass offices.

[01:12:54] Bro Saeed: Mm-hmm. Um, some things were, we're hoping each other were gonna be doing with them very soon. Um, other [01:13:00] stuff as well as Charla mra, uh, this fall, late, this fall. Bunch of stuff. Um, bunch of stuff to look forward to. Um, so just so many things. It, it, it goes back to that issue of practicing gratitude. Yeah.

[01:13:17] Bro Saeed: Remembering that law is a shakur and that, you know

[01:13:23] Bro Saeed: mm-hmm. That when you are grateful,

[01:13:25] Imam Tariq: give you more, I'll give you more. Mm-hmm.

[01:13:28] Bro Saeed: You know, and, and one of the close on a closing thought, just on that part right there, there was something that came across recently about that Aya, about, uh, if you are grateful, then I will give you more. That oftentimes this, this I, I think, is telling of us many times when we read that verse, we read, and I will give you more our immediate minds.

[01:13:50] Bro Saeed: Oftentimes we'll go to world we things right. Where the tough year I read was talking about more in terms of obedience, more in terms of [01:14:00] righteousness, more in terms of much more spiritual qualities, spiritual valuable things. Mm-hmm. Where I think what our tendency to immediately conceive of these worldly, you know, things, wealth or houses or jobs or this or that, whatever it is, it belies something about us.

[01:14:16] Bro Saeed: Mm-hmm. And I think this, going back to some of those subtleties we talked about in the beginning, this is one of those things that

[01:14:26] Bro Saeed: we have to challenge ourselves to not let us make our faith into something that is lifeless.

[01:14:34] Imam Tariq: That's right.

[01:14:36] Bro Saeed: We have to challenge ourselves. We have to do as, as we're, we're challenged to do is that we have to do masana. Mm-hmm. We have to be constantly doing a self accounting, a self-reflection, um, looking at ourselves critically.

[01:14:51] Bro Saeed: Really, really being honest with ourselves and, you know, calling, calling, you know, if we see the warts, we gotta talk about the wards. Mm-hmm. You know, we, we, we, we can't [01:15:00] look away from whatever ugliness we might find. Uh, because going back to 12 steps, I don't know why I 12 steps is kind of my head. The very first step in a 12 step program is admitting that you are a particular way that I am an alcoholic, I am an addict, I am a this, I am a, that if you have arrogance, it just goes back to a conversation my wife and I were having earlier today.

[01:15:22] Bro Saeed: Um, an arrogance issue or an envy issue. You need to be honest with yourself about

[01:15:29] Imam Tariq: that. That's right.

[01:15:31] Bro Saeed: You need to be able to look at it as uncomfortable as it might be. And just, you talked about trying to be as honest as well, so we were having a conversation about something I've read recently about Zacharia when he saw Maryam with the provisions she was being given, um, while she was in the merah.

[01:15:49] Bro Saeed: And for people who don't understand the story here, Marianne was in the charge of Zacharia. She was in a, she was kept separate so that she wasn't involved with the men. You know, the men didn't have free, free access or [01:16:00] anything, et cetera. When Zacharia would come to her, he would find her with provisions of food.

[01:16:05] Bro Saeed: But this is where translations miss details sometimes. Mm-hmm. It wasn't just that she was being given food, she was being given food out of season. Mm. So you're talking about produce from the winter. She was find, he was finding with her in the summer and in the summer, he was finding winter produce with her.

[01:16:22] Bro Saeed: So completely not normal and so miraculous in that she had provisions with no one providing for her visibly plus miraculous because the revisions she was getting were not even in season. And so he saw this and the, the point that was being made here, this is from a great app. For those who aren't familiar, there's an app called Nia.

[01:16:45] Bro Saeed: It has a lot of wonderful quizzes you can take on various aspects of Islamic knowledge that even I still find enlightening and, and insightful sometimes, et cetera. So I would very much encourage you to look it up separate. Um, they can pay me, [01:17:00] actually got a meeting with their CEO later, later in the week.

[01:17:05] Bro Saeed: But, um, they, they were talking about how when he saw that he didn't do what many of us would do and naturally as we'd become jealous. So he saw that as a sign of a law's ability to provide That's right. So rather than become jealous, it inspired him to turn to his Lord even more. And so as I was discussing that with her, I told her, I said, I said, I have a hard time with that sometimes because I see people that I feel like were given preference over me, you know, that, that don't have the time in, don't have the, the, the, the educational background don't have the experience, background being given opportunities that I haven't been given.

[01:17:41] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

[01:17:43] Bro Saeed: And Yeah, I, I feel a particular way about that.

[01:17:45] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

[01:17:46] Bro Saeed: You know, and, you know, I, I can become resentful and it's a struggle. Even now, even as I was talking with her about it, it was like I was feeling those things come up again. Mm-hmm. I'm like, that's why I don't try to delve into it, because I know if I delve into it, I, I go down that [01:18:00] hole.

[01:18:00] Bro Saeed: Like, but I try to make myself make, do offer for that person, you know, to, you know, to, to, to, to actually speak them up in circles. Mm-hmm. You know, knowing that that's me battling with myself, you know, internally, I'm like, ah, but it's like, it's like, no, it's like, that's not right. It's like, yeah, it feels awful.

[01:18:20] Bro Saeed: It feels like, it's like, but, but you know, you shouldn't be that way. You can't be that way. You need to work through that. And so, challenging myself to work through those things. And so she was in that conversation, she was reminding me about it, and we were talking about it, and I was like, it was like, it's not easy.

[01:18:33] Bro Saeed: I said, but, you know, it's like, you, you gotta try to put in that work. You know? You, you don't, and this goes back to my coaching, coaching experience. In a physical, in a physical world, in, in training for example.

[01:18:47] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

[01:18:47] Bro Saeed: You don't grow by not challenging yourself.

[01:18:50] Imam Tariq: Right.

[01:18:51] Bro Saeed: If the weights you're lifting are too light or the reps you're doing are too few and you're not feeling the burn, so to speak, you're not growing.

[01:18:59] Bro Saeed: [01:19:00] True growth physically as well as spiritually and mentally requires a certain amount of pain, for lack of a better word. Mm-hmm. If you're not experiencing some of that pain, you're most likely in not growing.

[01:19:12] Imam Tariq: Right.

[01:19:13] Bro Saeed: So you need to be comfortable with the idea that, and this, this actually I will, I promise I'll close this.

[01:19:19] Bro Saeed: This is, you never given name a microphone. When you look at the term, the term tech leaf. Tech leaf meaning responsibility.

[01:19:26] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

[01:19:27] Bro Saeed: Ari Ma at ICI explained this one time and I thought it was beautiful. A beautiful reminder. Tech leaf means responsibility, but it's not a responsibility that doesn't come with difficult.

[01:19:38] Bro Saeed: Team. So you are, you're being given responsibility, but it's not one that's supposed to be a cakewalk,

[01:19:45] Imam Tariq: right.

[01:19:46] Bro Saeed: It's supposed to require some effort on your part.

[01:19:49] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

[01:19:50] Bro Saeed: So it's not meant to be just like, you know, nothing at all. You're supposed to have to work forward a little bit. Mm-hmm. But that tech leaf, that responsibility, that [01:20:00] divine obligation is laid upon you, whether it's a law or CM or whatever, et cetera.

[01:20:04] Bro Saeed: It's meant to be a little challenging for you.

[01:20:06] Imam Tariq: That's right.

[01:20:07] Bro Saeed: You know, without that challenge, you don't grow. And that's where voluntary acts of worship come in handy. Is that when those things become easier for you, then you push yourself a little harder. You put in those extra reps.

[01:20:18] Imam Tariq: Yeah.

[01:20:20] Bro Saeed: You know, there's so many aspects of my personality showing up in this now, but, so that's long story short, but that's, yeah.

[01:20:26] Bro Saeed: So I mean the, the happiness I find in my life now, when, when I think about it. It is so easy to want to be down about so many things, especially in the current climate in the world today.

[01:20:38] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

[01:20:40] Bro Saeed: Sometimes we just have to find the joy in, in, in the smallest things

[01:20:45] Imam Tariq: You're speaking my language. And

[01:20:46] Bro Saeed: even if that's as simple as, even if that's as simple as picking up the, picking up a law's book and reading a page.

[01:20:52] Bro Saeed: Yeah. Really reading the page, not just looking at words and just mouthing things you don't understand, but really, [01:21:00] really digesting what's on that

[01:21:01] Imam Tariq: page. Yeah. Yeah. Well, uh, you dropped some real jewels. Um, and I, I, I will, I will close this out with this, um, what you said about, especially in positions of leadership, um, and I wouldn't even relegate it, just the positions of leadership.

[01:21:22] Imam Tariq: I think just the human experience. Um, you know, Allah tells us, well, at Lisa Lil and Sandy Ma, right, there's nothing for the human. Uh, being accept for what they strive for except the work and Right. Sometimes we believe that our striving, that it obligates an immediate response from a law. Oh, yes. And what you just mentioned, um, I think if, if more of us had the courage to, to own up to those feelings of sometimes feeling, you know, how come so and so is doing this over [01:22:00] here, you know, and these are thoughts that come up.

[01:22:01] Imam Tariq: How come, how come it looks like it's all coming together for this person and I've been grinding for all of this time. You know? Um, and then because we can't fix what we don't recognize. Mm-hmm. Um, yes. So I think you, you've shared so much. Um, that has been truly beneficial. It wasn't just that, but that's since that's since we're we're in that season, you're

[01:22:24] Bro Saeed: about, you're about to kick off a Star Wars reference.

[01:22:26] Bro Saeed: You keep that up. There's a whole, there's a whole Star Wars reference that goes with that observation.

[01:22:32] Imam Tariq: But I'm tell you this, I hope you're willing to come back on sometime in the future. Absolutely. I would love to, uh, absolutely have more conversation with you, and I definitely appreciate you taking the time.

[01:22:42] Imam Tariq: I, I, I think for our

[01:22:43] Bro Saeed: purposes, it'd be good to, good to focus on, on a, on a particular thread because. We could go well down that, that, that road, you

[01:22:50] Imam Tariq: know, I think that's the beauty of these kind of platforms is that they allow us to show up with authenticity. Yes, absolutely. Um, and it is not to necessarily have on Yeah, just one hat.

[01:22:59] Imam Tariq: [01:23:00] Yeah. One, one K one. Um, it is

[01:23:03] Bro Saeed: Oh, oh, you, you, you gonna bring the hat thing? I'll bring all the, all different hat I got sitting around here. We'll go through that too. So.

[01:23:10] Imam Tariq: Alright, family, we thank you for joining us. That is it for this week. We wanna to remind you that you can keep up with us on social media, the American Muslim Podcast, Facebook and Instagram.

[01:23:20] Imam Tariq: You can find me also I Ma Tarin, Facebook and Instagram. We'd love to hear from you. If you have not subscribed already, please do so. We're gonna leave you as we greeted. You may the peace that only God can give be upon you.