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Welcome to

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User Friendly 2.0 with host Bill Sikkens,

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Technology architect.

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And this is User Friendly 2.0
I am your host Bill Sikkens.

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Joining me my co-host Gretchen.

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Bill, welcome to this week's show.

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Welcome to August.

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Hello there. And it's really smoky.

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Yeah it is unfortunately up here
in the Pacific Northwest we're getting the

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smoke from the forest fires
and it has been definitely yucky.

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The smokes one thing,
but what really I don't like about

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that is number one
we're losing the forest.

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This is a burning in an area
by a ski lodge.

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That's a very picturesque area.

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And can you imagine
how many animals are burned to death

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and birds and things like that?
Because it's just all this going on.

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And I know Spokane, Washington,
they're really having some

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trouble up there
because it sounds like an arsonist started

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a huge fire
and has burned over 700 homes in the city.

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You know, it's up to 700 now. Yeah.

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Oh, wow.

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And these type of things are just,
you know, at least the one from

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my understanding that we're dealing with
here in Oregon was lightning, cause.

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So, you know, it's still, it's better
than an arson, but it's still not good.

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So, I don't know, I just give my strongest
support and wishes and positive energy

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to our firefighters and other responders
that are dealing with this.

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Yeah, because I know it's very difficult.

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They don't have the budgets
they need to in a lot of cases.

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And even if they did, it's
not an easy job.

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So more power to them.

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All right. Well, on that positive note,

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hey maybe we need we need cyber hawk.

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Yeah we need hawk.

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We actually need to talk about that
a little bit to a couple coming up.

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Because we're getting a lot of questions
on it.

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Gretchen, people are reading your book.

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Oh well that's
and I hope they're having fun.

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I think we need to put you
on a hot seat interview

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because you're getting a lot of questions
about it. So.

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Okay. Compile those.

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All right.
What do we have in the news this week.

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Well NASA has a virtual guest program.

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Yeah. And this is kind of cool.

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So you know, a lot of times
you watch what NASA is doing,

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a member of the media,
or you're at a location

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where they're doing an event
like launching

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something or whatever the case may be,
they do a lot more than just that, but

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a lot of people can't travel and are not
members of the media, believe it or not.

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So they've been offering a program
that's actually not a new program,

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but it seems like a lot of people
don't necessarily know about this.

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This has been available since 2020.

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So really, what would it be six years now?

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And with 3 million registrations
over 70 events,

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it is something that is getting out there.

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And what this actually is,
is a virtual guest program.

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So you go on, it's free, you sign up
and you get the mission background,

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latest updates, any schedule changes,
educational materials,

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behind the scenes information, links
to live streams, and so on.

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So it would be, I think, more impressive
to actually be at an event.

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But for most of us that can't do that,
this gives you a way to attend virtually,

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where you get a pretty similar experience

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and a chance to see things
that you wouldn't otherwise see.

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So this took off during Covid 19 and
has really been something ever since then.

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And it's NASA virtual guest program,
so NASA does.

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Yeah, I can say this NASA gov.

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National virtual guest program.

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And that's how you get to it.

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Now show that three times really fast
I think so not because I can't,

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but we just don't have the time
in this segment.

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That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

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All right.

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The US is investigating
if Iran was behind a cyberattack

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on a water system in seven states,
including Minnesota.

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Yeah.

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And I wanted to understand
this is up to 12 states now.

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But whatever the case may be,
I know in Minnesota alone,

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it was 30 different water systems within
that one state over a 48 hour period.

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The suspects on
this is Iran, Iraq led cyber attacks.

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And the question becomes on this
a couple of things as to

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why this would be the case.

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Well, number one,
obviously water is important and

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what they're trying to do is get in
and damage the water distribution system,

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either by shutting it down or doing things
like putting incorrect chemicals

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in the water and poisoning people.

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There's a lot of different bad things
that they could do with this.

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And one of the reasons
this is being targeted is because

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a lot of municipalities have older
control systems on their water systems,

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so these type of things
are a little easier to hack.

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They have limited cybersecurity budgets,

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so they don't have the greatest
protection against it. And

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what ends
up happening is you have equipment

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that's connected directly to the internet
that wasn't originally designed for that,

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and certainly not the needs of today
to keep it secure.

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So we've been seeing a lot of attacks
on infrastructure, hospital energy

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grids, pipelines, telecommunications
and so on, and now water systems.

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So the idea of this type of a thing is
we do need to be cautious.

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I think we're actually doing pretty good.

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Knock on wood or touch wood,
as those over the pond would say.

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Because we're in a situation
where this has been going on

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and yet we have not seen a major problem.

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That doesn't mean it won't happen,
but so far, so good.

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But vigilance is important.

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And this is why, from our own standpoint,
make sure your stuff is updated.

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Do the updates,
even though sometimes they're a pain

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because that's one of the best ways
you can keep your own system safe.

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And hopefully our leaders will hear that
and do the same thing

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with their systems if they're not already.

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All right.

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In the wake of doomsday, which sounds like
an interesting transition,

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Marvel announces new universe.

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So, okay, I'm glad this is science fiction
and not reality.

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Yeah.

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So Marvel is launching
an entirely new universe, sort of.

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According to their press release,
and Marvel and Webtoon

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have announced a line of original digital
first comics that are designed

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specifically for smartphones.

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So basically what's happening here is
they're not just scanning comic books,

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which is what that sounded like to me,
but they are doing this from the ground

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up to do webtoons
signature vertical scrolling format,

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which they have pioneered
to make these things work well on phones.

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So this isn't replacing Marvel Comics,

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its opening a front door
to a different audience, basically.

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Yeah, something, you know, I would
I don't think I'd like that.

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It would be so tiny, you know.

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And, you know, the artists go through
all that trouble to draw the artwork.

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I want to be able to see it and enjoy it.

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Well, the thing of it is, is
you're still going to have this on this.

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And from what I understand,
it's still going to remain. Marvel's

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been pretty good about real artists,
not AI, you know, that kind of thing.

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So they're still going to be doing that.

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It's just going to be
a digital format of it.

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So you're still seeing

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you're still seeing the same thing
you would in the comic books.

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It's just on your phone screen,
and it's designed

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so that you can scroll it
instead of having to turn pages.

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So, you know, the one thing about it
I will say is

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this is a lot of the younger generation
doesn't go to the comic book shop anymore.

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They may not even be available
in their areas.

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You know, a lot has changed.

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So it's a way to be able to experience
comic books and these this type of thing

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without, you know, being denied that
because you can't get a physical copy.

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And one of the other things that I think
is going to be interesting on

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this is I think this will upsell
the comic books, too,

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because somebody interested in
this would go to Amazon or some other,

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you know, Barnes and Noble or whatever,
and buy them

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if they would know about them.

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So the first one
that's going to be on this

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or I don't, the first one, but
one of the ones that they're announcing

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is going to be Deadpool.
So I'm going to find it interesting.

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I will try it out and see
what it is and report back.

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Data center

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approvals in Texas
halted until audits completed.

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So this is an interesting thing,
and one that doesn't shock me

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because there's been
a lot of concern about this.

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So the Texas Tribune is reporting
on this whole cobbler wrote it.

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And basically what's going on
here is due to the public

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backlash of the rapid
build out of data centers.

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They're doing a stop on them
until regulatory

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agencies can audit proposed data center
seeking connections

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with the state, electrical grid, water
and other things.

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So they haven't announced

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how long this is going to take
or any of the other details yet.

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But basically what's going on here,
not just in Texas, but a lot of places,

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is data centers
always have used a lot of power with AI.

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They're really using a lot of power now
to the point that it's causing problems

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where the normal subscriber
to an electrical grid, say, in your town

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doesn't always have electricity dependably
because the data center

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is taking so much of it
up and it's cooling

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AI and a number of other things
that are going on here.

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Power is important.

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Microsoft announced a while back
that they are buying a nuclear reactor

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and restarting it
to power their data centers,

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so that just goes to show you the scope of
what is going on here.

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And, you know,
I would think that with those big, huge

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buildings,
they put solar panels and those little

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the little windmills on the
buildings, why don't they?

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You're asking me that?

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I'm not sure the building is
building stuff, okay.

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Because to me
that seems like a no brainer.

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Answer your question.

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In a lot of cases, alternative energy

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is being used as part of it,
but it does not generate

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enough power to be able
to cover the entire use of a data center.

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It just does not.

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I was just thinking it might help.

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So it's not. Yeah,
and it definitely is an augmentation.

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One of the other things too
is data centers use water.

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A little bit of an aside
to this specific topic.

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We're seeing them build out
data center in places

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like Arizona
and the Sahara Sonoran Desert,

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which seems a little strange to me
on that front too,

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because, well, you could get
a lot of power from solar, certainly.

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Where are you gonna get the water?
So these are problems.

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We all use these data centers.

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Everybody, right now you're using a data
center listening to our show.

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It's just the way the world works now.

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But on the same token,
hopefully this will create

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some motivation for developers
to figure out a way to use less energy.

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And actually, I'm

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seeing that with some of the new AI builds
and stuff topic to talk about later

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that they're engineering
now using AI to back this up a little bit.

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So I think there's going to be
a lot of different approaches to this.

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But certainly the state
putting a moratorium on it makes sense

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because I don't know about you,
but I like to know that

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when I hit the light switch,
the lights are going to

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come on and my power is not being used

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somewhere else
that I still have to pay for. So

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yeah.

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Oh boy.

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Our pepper spray drones
headed for schools.

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So this is a funny thing.

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This was an Instagram video.

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Gretchen, I know you found and sent over
and I'm looking at this and you know,

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a lot of what you find on social media,
let's just say needs to be fact.

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And there's this video

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that has drones flying through classrooms,
breaking through windows,

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looking like some of the technology
is hitting a mannequin, you know?

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Exactly.

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And you're kind of going,
okay, you know, I think, Bill,

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before we started recording,
you made the comment.

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What could go wrong, right.

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So there is truth to this story,

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but it's not quite like that.

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Fortunately, in my opinion.

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But what they are looking at doing
is having drones

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that can be remotely operated.

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So they're not autonomous either.

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That can be used
in the event of active shooter situations

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and other threats
like that to our schools.

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So when this happens,
they can send one of these drones

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into the classroom
and try to nullify the shooter situation.

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I can see where

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00:11:48,674 --> 00:11:52,111
that would be of an extreme benefit
because it takes people out of harm's way,

234
00:11:52,144 --> 00:11:54,980
hopefully takes our kids out of harm's way
when these things happen.

235
00:11:54,980 --> 00:11:57,850
And the other side of it
is, is deterrence are a big deal.

236
00:11:57,850 --> 00:12:01,787
So you're looking at a situation here that
if a program like this was successful,

237
00:12:01,921 --> 00:12:05,091
maybe it'll cut back on the shooter
situation a little bit too.

238
00:12:05,191 --> 00:12:08,360
So there is a place
for this type of thing,

239
00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:12,231
but not quite what was being promoted
in that Instagram video.

240
00:12:12,498 --> 00:12:14,600
You know,
it looked like something out of sci fi,

241
00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:16,435
and I'm glad that's
where that's remaining.

242
00:12:16,435 --> 00:12:18,370
But I can see a project like this

243
00:12:19,538 --> 00:12:20,172
being

244
00:12:20,172 --> 00:12:23,642
something that would be something
that was usable.

245
00:12:23,642 --> 00:12:25,478
So some of the backstory on it.

246
00:12:25,478 --> 00:12:26,579
A company in Texas called

247
00:12:26,579 --> 00:12:30,349
Campus Guardian Angel
is rolling out the pilot program for this.

248
00:12:30,382 --> 00:12:33,853
They're trying it out in some schools
in Florida, Georgia and Colorado.

249
00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,256
Again, the drones are remotely operated
by train human pilots,

250
00:12:37,256 --> 00:12:40,426
not all AI making its own decisions.

251
00:12:40,893 --> 00:12:44,163
They're tended only
for active shooter situations.

252
00:12:44,196 --> 00:12:48,501
And they can use a combination of video
sirens, flashing lights, pepper gel and,

253
00:12:48,501 --> 00:12:49,502
as a last resort,

254
00:12:49,502 --> 00:12:53,439
physically ramming into the attacker
to slow them down until police arrive.

255
00:12:53,472 --> 00:12:56,575
Now, being said that,
you know, having something like this

256
00:12:56,642 --> 00:13:00,112
in the schools based on the video
would have bad things happen.

257
00:13:00,112 --> 00:13:02,148
On the flip side,
if you have someone in the school

258
00:13:02,148 --> 00:13:05,785
threatening our students, I think using
whatever is needed to nullify

259
00:13:05,785 --> 00:13:09,522
that up to and including deadly force
is completely appropriate.

260
00:13:09,522 --> 00:13:11,857
So having it from that standpoint
makes sense.

261
00:13:11,857 --> 00:13:13,492
As long as there's a human operator

262
00:13:13,492 --> 00:13:17,563
actually operating the drone,
you know, which there is. So.

263
00:13:19,298 --> 00:13:21,734
Well, talking about possible robots,

264
00:13:21,734 --> 00:13:26,639
the FCC to ban on foreign made robots,
including robot vacuums.

265
00:13:26,705 --> 00:13:30,309
So we talked about this
a little bit last week on the ban.

266
00:13:31,076 --> 00:13:34,079
But this is where sometimes

267
00:13:34,079 --> 00:13:36,348
I think our leaders
need to think things through a little bit.

268
00:13:36,348 --> 00:13:39,985
But there actually is some use for this

269
00:13:39,985 --> 00:13:41,720
and I understand
where they're coming from.

270
00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,890
So originally,
the way that this was announced to

271
00:13:44,890 --> 00:13:48,027
the media was that it was humanoid robots.

272
00:13:48,060 --> 00:13:49,061
Okay.

273
00:13:49,061 --> 00:13:53,632
So whatever your opinion may be on that,
that's what they were talking about.

274
00:13:53,632 --> 00:13:57,636
But however, it's a little bit
more than that,

275
00:13:57,636 --> 00:14:03,075
because the way it's worded is that the
FCC has made this through some expansion

276
00:14:03,075 --> 00:14:07,346
and some of the original bill,
that it's now advanced robotic devices.

277
00:14:07,346 --> 00:14:09,582
So that isn't just humanoid robots.

278
00:14:09,582 --> 00:14:11,417
It includes many of the robot vacuums,

279
00:14:11,417 --> 00:14:15,020
robotic lawnmowers,
and other things that we use every day.

280
00:14:15,321 --> 00:14:19,692
So basically, if you already own a robotic
vacuum or related, nothing changes.

281
00:14:19,692 --> 00:14:21,193
Your Roomba is not going to stop working,

282
00:14:21,193 --> 00:14:23,596
although it might because of the problems
with the company.

283
00:14:23,596 --> 00:14:26,866
But the actual FCC controls

284
00:14:26,866 --> 00:14:31,670
here are not affecting that
it's future made models,

285
00:14:31,670 --> 00:14:32,738
and why they're doing

286
00:14:32,738 --> 00:14:36,876
this is not that the FCC is too concerned
about the state of your carpet,

287
00:14:36,909 --> 00:14:41,180
which is fortunate, but
it's more about what the devices can do.

288
00:14:41,180 --> 00:14:44,783
So modern robotic vacuums,
just to use that as an example,

289
00:14:44,984 --> 00:14:48,587
have multiple cameras,
microphones on some models, leader

290
00:14:48,587 --> 00:14:52,591
mapping systems for your house, Wi-Fi
and Bluetooth connectivity,

291
00:14:52,691 --> 00:14:56,095
detailed floor plans of your home
with cloud connectivity.

292
00:14:56,095 --> 00:14:56,428
Bill.

293
00:14:56,428 --> 00:14:58,297
What could possibly go wrong there?

294
00:14:58,297 --> 00:15:01,300
They're worried about spying
then? Yes, yes.

295
00:15:01,533 --> 00:15:04,436
Okay, that makes a lot of sense. Okay.

296
00:15:04,436 --> 00:15:07,439
And it is, in my opinion, a valid concern.

297
00:15:07,706 --> 00:15:10,709
Well,
you could have predators take over these,

298
00:15:10,743 --> 00:15:15,714
these little vacuums
and spy on women and children and men.

299
00:15:15,781 --> 00:15:18,817
You know, you walk around your house,
you could be

300
00:15:18,817 --> 00:15:21,820
in your underwear or less
and that could be bad.

301
00:15:22,221 --> 00:15:23,722
Well, that being one thing.

302
00:15:23,722 --> 00:15:27,293
But the other side of this too, is
and I decided this before,

303
00:15:27,293 --> 00:15:30,296
but a number of years ago,
I was involved in a thing

304
00:15:30,296 --> 00:15:34,900
that where we were doing some testing
on really what could the bad guys do

305
00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:36,268
with the information that's out there.

306
00:15:36,268 --> 00:15:39,271
Now, this was done prior Covid,
so about 2019.

307
00:15:39,271 --> 00:15:40,673
I remember this story.

308
00:15:40,673 --> 00:15:43,309
Yeah. Prior to a lot of the technology
we have now.

309
00:15:43,309 --> 00:15:47,579
And with that, it was still possible
using social media and information

310
00:15:47,579 --> 00:15:53,052
from a phone to figure out minor child's
where she was at all times,

311
00:15:53,218 --> 00:15:57,189
where her classroom was in her school,
where her bedroom was in her house.

312
00:15:57,523 --> 00:16:00,059
You know, that kind of a thing,
which is just downright scary.

313
00:16:00,059 --> 00:16:02,428
Now fast forward to 2026.

314
00:16:02,428 --> 00:16:06,332
Again, this technology has moved
in a direction like you talk about cameras

315
00:16:06,332 --> 00:16:09,935
in your house and these kind of things,
and this stuff is being attacked.

316
00:16:09,935 --> 00:16:15,040
And we have had some issues
over the years of bad guys, bad actors

317
00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:19,378
getting into in-home security cameras
and other things and monitoring people

318
00:16:19,378 --> 00:16:22,381
and doing all kinds of
other really creepy stuff.

319
00:16:22,614 --> 00:16:26,151
So you take it a step further
and look at kind of

320
00:16:26,185 --> 00:16:27,653
what's going on with our technology.

321
00:16:27,653 --> 00:16:30,656
Now, this does make sense
to try to reel this in

322
00:16:30,656 --> 00:16:34,360
and get some regulations in place
to just make sure our things are secure.

323
00:16:34,660 --> 00:16:38,630
Now, that being said, one of the questions
that we get asked all the time

324
00:16:38,630 --> 00:16:40,032
and one of the ones that I unfortunately

325
00:16:40,032 --> 00:16:43,035
can't really answer for obvious
reasons, is how do you hack?

326
00:16:43,102 --> 00:16:46,038
Okay,
but it is interesting to look at this from

327
00:16:46,038 --> 00:16:49,174
a standpoint of what
this kind of thing means.

328
00:16:49,174 --> 00:16:52,011
So I did a little checking earlier
this year.

329
00:16:52,011 --> 00:16:54,713
I'm going to be covering this
on a special edition episode.

330
00:16:54,713 --> 00:16:57,816
We're going to be doing this
fall on hacking.

331
00:16:58,217 --> 00:17:01,220
And I'm not going to teach you how
to hack, so don't get ramped up for that.

332
00:17:01,220 --> 00:17:04,790
But we are going to talk about some of
the things that can be done with it.

333
00:17:04,790 --> 00:17:06,425
And I got a few routers

334
00:17:06,425 --> 00:17:10,596
and cameras and things off of Amazon
and some other places like that to,

335
00:17:11,630 --> 00:17:13,332
you know, some of the

336
00:17:13,332 --> 00:17:16,869
Chinese sites,
just to see what we were absolutely

337
00:17:16,869 --> 00:17:20,272
dealing with here in the software on
some of these things was so bad

338
00:17:20,372 --> 00:17:23,308
that it is possible very easily.

339
00:17:23,308 --> 00:17:25,611
I don't even know
if it'd be called hacking.

340
00:17:25,611 --> 00:17:29,915
The system just does not have security,
and you can go on passwords

341
00:17:29,915 --> 00:17:33,519
and do all that you want, and it just
simply doesn't matter, you know?

342
00:17:35,220 --> 00:17:37,623
So it is definitely a concern.

343
00:17:37,623 --> 00:17:41,493
I can see where this is something
that they really should dial back on.

344
00:17:41,693 --> 00:17:44,596
On the flip side, name brands

345
00:17:44,596 --> 00:17:48,300
and some of the better quality technology
like this,

346
00:17:48,300 --> 00:17:53,172
like your ring and other such things
do seem to be reasonably secure.

347
00:17:53,238 --> 00:17:57,109
Now, I say that with a standpoint
that anything can be hacked,

348
00:17:57,109 --> 00:18:00,145
so the better you do your security,
the less likely it is.

349
00:18:00,145 --> 00:18:02,147
But there you are.

350
00:18:02,147 --> 00:18:04,083
You know what?
Are you guys opinion on this?

351
00:18:04,083 --> 00:18:06,118
Are you concerned about this?

352
00:18:06,118 --> 00:18:08,420
Yeah. Yeah I am now.

353
00:18:09,621 --> 00:18:12,624
Well yeah.

354
00:18:12,825 --> 00:18:14,960
You know, I don't
think we need to be paranoid about it,

355
00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,897
but I do think there are some things
where you get what you pay for.

356
00:18:18,897 --> 00:18:22,401
And in this particular
set of circumstances, it is important

357
00:18:22,401 --> 00:18:25,671
to make sure you get reputable equipment
when you do this.

358
00:18:25,704 --> 00:18:28,107
I have cameras in my house
because I have a senior mother, and

359
00:18:28,107 --> 00:18:31,877
I need to be able to know that she's okay,
you know, I do the same thing.

360
00:18:31,910 --> 00:18:33,178
And but I also make sure

361
00:18:33,178 --> 00:18:37,916
that they're not pointed in areas
where people need to remain private.

362
00:18:37,983 --> 00:18:40,385
Yeah, well, I do the same thing,
but there's still a camera

363
00:18:40,385 --> 00:18:43,455
at the top of my stairs,
and it needs to be there, you know?

364
00:18:43,522 --> 00:18:44,123
Yeah.

365
00:18:44,123 --> 00:18:47,759
And I certainly wouldn't
want some creepy weirdo, you know,

366
00:18:47,793 --> 00:18:52,698
or worse, a state actor of some kind
looking in on my camera, I just wouldn't.

367
00:18:55,300 --> 00:18:56,001
Oh, boy.

368
00:18:56,001 --> 00:18:56,802
Okay,

369
00:18:56,802 --> 00:19:00,539
here's another thing going on, and I'm
not exactly sure where this one's going.

370
00:19:00,572 --> 00:19:04,276
Kitchen appliance sold at Amazon, Home
depot

371
00:19:04,543 --> 00:19:07,980
recalled after one death and 34 fires.

372
00:19:07,980 --> 00:19:09,815
So what's going on here?

373
00:19:09,815 --> 00:19:13,318
Well, what's going on is if you have
this appliance, you should stop using it.

374
00:19:13,519 --> 00:19:13,852
Oh, well.

375
00:19:13,852 --> 00:19:16,855
Duh. It's.

376
00:19:17,556 --> 00:19:21,160
So the manufacturer of this is gallons.

377
00:19:21,226 --> 00:19:24,229
Gallons. I'm probably mispronouncing that.

378
00:19:24,296 --> 00:19:26,265
The product is called Retro refrigerators.

379
00:19:26,265 --> 00:19:29,268
And looking at the picture,
they're actually kind of cool.

380
00:19:29,334 --> 00:19:33,472
About 121,680 of these have been sold.

381
00:19:33,505 --> 00:19:35,240
And what happened

382
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:39,378
is, is the internal electrical components
can short circuit and ignite.

383
00:19:39,378 --> 00:19:43,682
That's not something you want with
your refrigerator or anything else. No.

384
00:19:43,982 --> 00:19:47,619
So if you have one
retro are the components.

385
00:19:47,619 --> 00:19:49,454
Did they go to the junkyard?

386
00:19:49,454 --> 00:19:51,456
I think they would have done
better with that.

387
00:19:51,456 --> 00:19:53,892
I think they got the cheapest components
they could find.

388
00:19:53,892 --> 00:19:56,662
This is my opinion,
but from looking at this stuff,

389
00:19:56,662 --> 00:20:00,899
got the cheapest components they could
find, cobbled it together, made the device

390
00:20:01,099 --> 00:20:05,437
and it's not handling the power properly
because what's in there is not designed

391
00:20:05,637 --> 00:20:09,741
to be able to handle the power
that's going through it. And

392
00:20:10,976 --> 00:20:12,477
there's a device in electronics.

393
00:20:12,477 --> 00:20:16,148
I'll go down this rabbit hole a little,
a little bit called a mOSFET

394
00:20:16,148 --> 00:20:20,052
or a transistor
that control turning motors on and off.

395
00:20:20,118 --> 00:20:21,353
Right. It's a switch.

396
00:20:21,353 --> 00:20:24,623
And I've seen this in a lot of things
where they're

397
00:20:24,656 --> 00:20:28,026
using a device that's not rated
for the power consumption that's required.

398
00:20:28,026 --> 00:20:30,462
Now, if you do this on a low
voltage device,

399
00:20:30,462 --> 00:20:32,598
something that runs on batteries,
that type of a thing

400
00:20:32,598 --> 00:20:35,033
that's most that's going to happen
is the device will stop working

401
00:20:35,033 --> 00:20:38,036
when the transistor or related item
burns out.

402
00:20:38,036 --> 00:20:41,974
But if you're running mains voltage,
you know, 110 here in the States and other

403
00:20:41,974 --> 00:20:46,511
parts of the world to 20 through that,
it will ignite because it overheats.

404
00:20:46,511 --> 00:20:49,881
And that's a bad thing
when it causes a fire.

405
00:20:49,881 --> 00:20:54,453
So if you have one of these devices, check
with Amazon or Home Depot.

406
00:20:54,519 --> 00:20:58,757
That's where they were sold or checked
with the manufacturer's website or the US

407
00:20:58,857 --> 00:21:00,792
Consumer Product Safety Commission
to find out

408
00:21:00,792 --> 00:21:03,462
if yours has been recalled
and what to do about it.

409
00:21:03,462 --> 00:21:06,632
I believe they are refunding the money,
but again,

410
00:21:06,665 --> 00:21:10,002
this may be different
depending on what the specific case is.

411
00:21:10,002 --> 00:21:13,705
I don't know if there's a fix available
for them, but definitely something.

412
00:21:13,705 --> 00:21:16,341
Please be careful and please check it out.

413
00:21:16,341 --> 00:21:21,613
So that being said, let's talk
about some changes in technology.

414
00:21:21,613 --> 00:21:24,916
And this is one that we got
a number of questions in about.

415
00:21:24,916 --> 00:21:28,754
And it's kind of an interesting topic
because it affects pretty much all of us.

416
00:21:28,787 --> 00:21:32,858
And that's a technology
that we, most of us have probably

417
00:21:32,858 --> 00:21:36,561
used all of our life, if not most of it,
depending on your generation.

418
00:21:37,062 --> 00:21:40,832
It's something that's been out there
since the 70s and that's UPC barcodes.

419
00:21:41,033 --> 00:21:44,536
So when you go to a grocery store
or a target

420
00:21:44,536 --> 00:21:48,507
or whatever, Walmart, any place like that,
there's a barcode.

421
00:21:48,507 --> 00:21:52,411
And when you go to pay for the item
at the self-check, you scan the barcode.

422
00:21:52,411 --> 00:21:54,112
If you still have a store
where they actually have people

423
00:21:54,112 --> 00:21:55,947
that will do that for you,
the checker will scan it.

424
00:21:55,947 --> 00:21:57,282
But that is how it works.

425
00:21:57,282 --> 00:22:01,920
And what this does is it rings up the item
so that the checkers

426
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,223
not manually entering the amounts,
so there's not an error on that end.

427
00:22:05,223 --> 00:22:07,793
Or worse yet,
you know, it would never happen.

428
00:22:07,793 --> 00:22:09,394
But if that was manual, in this day
and age,

429
00:22:09,394 --> 00:22:11,463
I have a feeling that it could be possible

430
00:22:11,463 --> 00:22:12,664
that sometimes they would under

431
00:22:12,664 --> 00:22:15,667
charge for their friends,
you know, stuff like that.

432
00:22:15,801 --> 00:22:17,669
So it makes it automatic.

433
00:22:17,669 --> 00:22:20,038
And this has been a situation.

434
00:22:20,038 --> 00:22:23,041
So five decades we've all seen them.

435
00:22:23,375 --> 00:22:25,544
Yeah. What's happening.
Are they going away.

436
00:22:25,544 --> 00:22:29,147
They're being replaced
and we're getting something new.

437
00:22:29,147 --> 00:22:32,984
So you're still going to be able to go
to the self-check and scan your stuff out.

438
00:22:33,151 --> 00:22:36,822
But it's being swapped out
for basically a QR code.

439
00:22:37,222 --> 00:22:39,758
First scan happened in 1974 by the way.

440
00:22:39,758 --> 00:22:41,893
So that gives you an idea of it.

441
00:22:41,893 --> 00:22:42,494
Wiggles.

442
00:22:42,494 --> 00:22:44,996
Juicy Fruit gum was the first item scan.

443
00:22:44,996 --> 00:22:48,667
So just a little bit
of information on that. Yeah

444
00:22:49,868 --> 00:22:50,836
okay.

445
00:22:50,836 --> 00:22:54,272
But that being said, what
we've got going on here is

446
00:22:54,940 --> 00:22:58,176
the new codes
can handle a lot more information.

447
00:22:58,276 --> 00:23:00,746
And we were just talking about product
recalls.

448
00:23:00,746 --> 00:23:02,614
This is one of the things
when you scan your item,

449
00:23:02,614 --> 00:23:04,216
it will know what the lot number is.

450
00:23:04,216 --> 00:23:07,252
That came from where it came from,
if it's been recalled,

451
00:23:07,252 --> 00:23:09,187
if it's a food item, if it's expired,

452
00:23:09,187 --> 00:23:12,557
or there's a problem like that
and automatically be able to tell you.

453
00:23:12,557 --> 00:23:16,661
And because we can scan QR codes
with our phone, if you have a device

454
00:23:16,661 --> 00:23:18,630
that's questionable or a product
that's questionable,

455
00:23:18,630 --> 00:23:20,232
you can scan the code after you buy it

456
00:23:20,232 --> 00:23:22,501
and see if there's a recall,
that kind of a thing.

457
00:23:22,501 --> 00:23:24,536
And there's a lot more information
that this will be able

458
00:23:24,536 --> 00:23:28,340
to track for the retailers, for the point
of sale systems and that kind of thing.

459
00:23:28,340 --> 00:23:29,474
But it's next year.

460
00:23:29,474 --> 00:23:31,109
My understanding
when these are going to be phased

461
00:23:31,109 --> 00:23:33,612
in, we'll be seeing both codes side
by side for a while

462
00:23:33,612 --> 00:23:35,147
until things are upgraded.

463
00:23:35,147 --> 00:23:38,617
But at the end of the day,
that's what's happening.

464
00:23:38,817 --> 00:23:40,519
All right.
We're about out of time for the segment.

465
00:23:40,519 --> 00:23:41,620
Join us for our next segment.

466
00:23:41,620 --> 00:23:44,122
We're going to be talking
about old programing languages.

467
00:23:44,122 --> 00:23:47,025
This is user friendly 2.0.
We'll be back after the break.

468
00:23:48,360 --> 00:23:50,362
He's from the future.

469
00:23:50,362 --> 00:23:53,665
He's got a really big computer

470
00:23:53,932 --> 00:23:57,235
and he uses it uses it every day.

471
00:23:57,536 --> 00:24:00,672
And he uses it uses it in every way.

472
00:24:00,939 --> 00:24:04,276
What he uses for
you know, I'm not that sure

473
00:24:04,309 --> 00:24:07,312
because we used it here.

474
00:24:07,312 --> 00:24:07,779
Welcome back.

475
00:24:07,779 --> 00:24:10,315
This is user friendly 2.0.
Check out our website.

476
00:24:10,315 --> 00:24:14,786
User friendly show is your one
stop for questions, comments, back

477
00:24:14,820 --> 00:24:17,055
episodes and everything
else. User friendly.

478
00:24:17,055 --> 00:24:19,257
Check us out at User Friendly Show.

479
00:24:19,257 --> 00:24:22,027
So we talk technology a lot here

480
00:24:22,027 --> 00:24:25,497
that this is a technology
and pop culture show that does make sense.

481
00:24:25,664 --> 00:24:30,535
And one of the things we do look at is
where technology has come from.

482
00:24:30,535 --> 00:24:32,471
And in coming weeks,
we're going to be covering

483
00:24:32,471 --> 00:24:33,738
some of that in a little more detail.

484
00:24:33,738 --> 00:24:37,242
History on things based on a lot of
the questions and comments you've sent in.

485
00:24:37,242 --> 00:24:39,478
And this week,
we'd like to invite our guest,

486
00:24:39,478 --> 00:24:41,480
who is going to be joining us here
in a minute,

487
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:43,381
who's going to be talking about COBOL.

488
00:24:43,381 --> 00:24:47,152
Now, for people of my generation,
we've heard of this language

489
00:24:47,152 --> 00:24:52,023
COBOL, Fortran, these were the standard
languages back in the 1970s and 80s.

490
00:24:52,057 --> 00:24:55,460
And fast forward ahead to 2026.

491
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:56,695
We're here

492
00:24:56,695 --> 00:25:00,799
using a lot more modern languages
in some cases, but a lot of things

493
00:25:00,799 --> 00:25:04,135
still run on these old,
many computers, mainframes and that type

494
00:25:04,135 --> 00:25:08,139
of thing that need to be migrated
over the systems work pretty well.

495
00:25:08,139 --> 00:25:12,143
But the problem is, is that in a lot of
cases, you can't get the parts anymore.

496
00:25:12,177 --> 00:25:14,379
You can't get support on
something made in the 70s.

497
00:25:14,379 --> 00:25:19,017
I can see that being a problem,
but you're dealing with a situation

498
00:25:19,017 --> 00:25:20,552
where not only is the language

499
00:25:20,552 --> 00:25:23,555
COBOL that it's in completely different
from anything we're dealing with now,

500
00:25:23,622 --> 00:25:24,789
so is the platform.

501
00:25:24,789 --> 00:25:26,892
You might have a database
that you need to move over,

502
00:25:26,892 --> 00:25:29,294
and it's not like you do it
now where you export it.

503
00:25:29,294 --> 00:25:30,795
You have to do a lot of different things.

504
00:25:30,795 --> 00:25:32,998
Even the hardware is different.

505
00:25:32,998 --> 00:25:35,667
So joining us today is our guest
who is going to be speaking of this

506
00:25:35,667 --> 00:25:36,101
a little bit.

507
00:25:36,101 --> 00:25:39,871
And some of the things that they're doing
to be able to solve this problem.

508
00:25:39,871 --> 00:25:41,373
And welcome to User Friendly.

509
00:25:41,373 --> 00:25:44,442
Go ahead and introduce yourself and
tell us a little bit about what you do.

510
00:25:44,910 --> 00:25:47,712
Thank you so much. My name is Mark guru.

511
00:25:47,712 --> 00:25:51,550
Or I do have a 19
plus years of industry experience

512
00:25:51,550 --> 00:25:55,253
on different components that includes
different technologies, different flavors.

513
00:25:55,253 --> 00:25:59,824
But my area of specialization
is application modernization.

514
00:25:59,958 --> 00:26:03,261
That is, when we talk about application
modernization, that end

515
00:26:03,261 --> 00:26:06,398
to end, we're not sticking to the one
single layer here.

516
00:26:06,731 --> 00:26:11,503
And I work with multi-million companies,
and I would say that

517
00:26:11,536 --> 00:26:16,541
fortune 500 of watching in companies,
as well as supported all of them

518
00:26:16,841 --> 00:26:22,280
on a different products, it's a part based
and also consulting firms had a lot of

519
00:26:23,381 --> 00:26:24,950
assessments for some of the

520
00:26:24,950 --> 00:26:27,953
projects, friendly projects as well.

521
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:29,554
So let's dive into modernization.

522
00:26:29,554 --> 00:26:33,425
I know one of the things that you know
a little bit about is our old friend

523
00:26:33,425 --> 00:26:37,295
COBOL, and this comes up
sometimes in a history class,

524
00:26:37,295 --> 00:26:41,232
but I also know
I worked for a bank for a while.

525
00:26:41,399 --> 00:26:43,802
This is still widely deployed.

526
00:26:43,802 --> 00:26:45,704
I mean, you know,
you see it all over the place,

527
00:26:45,704 --> 00:26:49,574
but it's a language that it's becoming
harder and harder to find support for.

528
00:26:49,774 --> 00:26:50,976
Tell us a little bit about that

529
00:26:50,976 --> 00:26:54,212
and what it would take to modernize
that kind of a system.

530
00:26:55,146 --> 00:26:57,215
Yeah, it's a COBOL is everybody knew

531
00:26:57,215 --> 00:27:00,218
that COBOL is really the complicated

532
00:27:00,752 --> 00:27:01,186
language.

533
00:27:01,186 --> 00:27:04,155
I would say that because there are less

534
00:27:04,155 --> 00:27:07,759
experts, which are right now
because most of the experts

535
00:27:07,759 --> 00:27:11,429
who develop this,
who own this, who written this code,

536
00:27:11,763 --> 00:27:13,999
they already retired
and they are going to.

537
00:27:15,033 --> 00:27:17,335
So that is the opportunity.

538
00:27:17,335 --> 00:27:23,108
I would say that where we need
to get going and see how to

539
00:27:23,141 --> 00:27:26,945
and as you need to understand this,
to what level the dependencies

540
00:27:27,112 --> 00:27:28,680
on this COBOL language,

541
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,717
they develop the application
and then you need to work reverse.

542
00:27:32,751 --> 00:27:35,120
You need to do a kind of a reverse
engineering

543
00:27:35,120 --> 00:27:37,656
where you need to understand
dependencies, integrations,

544
00:27:37,656 --> 00:27:41,693
how the application flow is working on
what are some of the things

545
00:27:41,693 --> 00:27:47,265
which you cannot modernize,
what you have to read, write it, redo it.

546
00:27:47,265 --> 00:27:50,402
So so I would start from that point

547
00:27:50,402 --> 00:27:54,639
when we talk more
about the COBOL modernization.

548
00:27:54,639 --> 00:27:59,110
So many of the many of the clients
or many of the consultants.

549
00:27:59,210 --> 00:28:02,013
Exactly.
That's where they're going to miss it.

550
00:28:02,013 --> 00:28:06,351
When they say COBOL conversion
or the modernization,

551
00:28:06,384 --> 00:28:11,389
they focus solely on this code
and they never mind

552
00:28:11,389 --> 00:28:16,261
about the dependencies,
integration, years of efforts

553
00:28:16,661 --> 00:28:21,933
which the exports, which they developed
in order that application to function.

554
00:28:21,933 --> 00:28:25,937
So that ecosystem being missed
when somebody

555
00:28:26,538 --> 00:28:30,141
get themselves
involved in this modernization effort.

556
00:28:30,175 --> 00:28:35,480
So that part is really critical
for us to get going, not only the code.

557
00:28:35,580 --> 00:28:37,515
That's where I'll start from.

558
00:28:37,515 --> 00:28:39,918
From step as a step one.

559
00:28:39,918 --> 00:28:45,190
So it sounds like it's easy for clients
to overlook the complications

560
00:28:45,190 --> 00:28:48,493
and the years of changes
that have been done

561
00:28:48,493 --> 00:28:52,230
to the software,
or how the software talks to other

562
00:28:53,465 --> 00:28:54,432
attributes.

563
00:28:54,432 --> 00:28:57,135
So is that a good question?
Yeah, yeah. That's right.

564
00:28:57,135 --> 00:29:00,572
Because what happens is imagine
that that's a

565
00:29:01,139 --> 00:29:04,509
was application
was developed in 1970s sometime around.

566
00:29:04,509 --> 00:29:10,381
And right now it's almost like
we are talking about nearly 40 years.

567
00:29:10,381 --> 00:29:14,586
Somebody already joined the aged out there
retired and somebody new joined.

568
00:29:14,586 --> 00:29:15,920
They don't even know

569
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,357
the roots of the application
how that application being developed.

570
00:29:19,491 --> 00:29:21,426
On what basis?

571
00:29:21,426 --> 00:29:21,693
Yeah.

572
00:29:21,693 --> 00:29:25,063
Well they can say yes,
this is well but if something breaks,

573
00:29:25,096 --> 00:29:28,600
no, they're not going to fix it because
they don't have those documentation.

574
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:34,105
Because if we you know, I in my experience
there are a lot of scenarios.

575
00:29:34,105 --> 00:29:37,108
We don't have enough documentation
to go back to the roots and say,

576
00:29:37,108 --> 00:29:40,345
hey, this is what this is how it built
and this is what it is.

577
00:29:40,378 --> 00:29:43,114
Now let's go and fix that now.

578
00:29:43,114 --> 00:29:46,618
Lack of documentation also impacts

579
00:29:47,051 --> 00:29:50,522
the understanding of the application
or troubleshooting the issue.

580
00:29:50,522 --> 00:29:53,091
So your point is absolutely right.

581
00:29:53,091 --> 00:29:57,262
They're going to miss a lot of components
around here when they look

582
00:29:57,262 --> 00:30:01,466
into this modernization effort
or before the modernization effort.

583
00:30:01,466 --> 00:30:03,434
If something happened
they don't even know what's going on.

584
00:30:03,434 --> 00:30:06,571
So this is a high risk
when we talk about the banking

585
00:30:06,571 --> 00:30:10,508
sector, insurance and also defense system.

586
00:30:10,542 --> 00:30:12,277
There's a lot going on with it.

587
00:30:12,277 --> 00:30:15,580
If something they cannot troubleshoot it,
that's it.

588
00:30:15,613 --> 00:30:20,418
They're not going to come out from that
scenario and it's going to be huge impact.

589
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:23,788
Now you talk about I think you said

590
00:30:23,788 --> 00:30:28,426
800 billion lines of COBOL code
still exist out there.

591
00:30:28,459 --> 00:30:29,694
What industries do you see this?

592
00:30:29,694 --> 00:30:32,730
And I know banking is one of them,
but that can't be the only one.

593
00:30:33,097 --> 00:30:37,836
If banking, defense, the insurance
companies, all these companies

594
00:30:38,036 --> 00:30:43,975
which exist from almost decades,
they do have this mainframe in their DNA

595
00:30:43,975 --> 00:30:48,313
and there's DNA we have to shift and lift.

596
00:30:48,313 --> 00:30:49,614
Sometimes it is lift and shift.

597
00:30:49,614 --> 00:30:52,550
Sometimes you need to rewrite
most of the time.

598
00:30:52,550 --> 00:30:56,387
So again, this again
falls under the lack of documentation

599
00:30:56,387 --> 00:30:59,357
and also the kind of approach
which we would like to pick.

600
00:30:59,357 --> 00:31:00,225
It depends on the

601
00:31:00,225 --> 00:31:04,095
bits and pieces information
which as part of requirements we gather.

602
00:31:04,095 --> 00:31:06,731
So yes, there are 800 plus.

603
00:31:06,731 --> 00:31:08,399
I would say that more than

604
00:31:09,901 --> 00:31:12,537
I mean,
it sounds like it could be stressful,

605
00:31:12,537 --> 00:31:16,574
especially if you're thinking about, oh,
the banking industry where you could

606
00:31:16,641 --> 00:31:18,343
screw up records
and people lose their money.

607
00:31:18,343 --> 00:31:23,147
Or if you're talking Defense Department,
oh gosh, what could go wrong there?

608
00:31:23,781 --> 00:31:24,549
Exactly.

609
00:31:24,549 --> 00:31:27,785
It's highly stressful
because, as I said, the ecosystem

610
00:31:27,785 --> 00:31:31,222
understanding somebody,
somebody saying, yes, I'm expert in this.

611
00:31:31,356 --> 00:31:33,091
I would say that okay.

612
00:31:33,091 --> 00:31:35,059
Did you go through the ecosystem?

613
00:31:35,059 --> 00:31:36,427
Because in ecosystem

614
00:31:36,427 --> 00:31:39,831
these are all something
which or bits and pieces puzzles.

615
00:31:39,831 --> 00:31:40,431
It's not like,

616
00:31:40,431 --> 00:31:40,732
you know,

617
00:31:40,732 --> 00:31:44,602
you bought an Apple phone and now you have
some Apple Charge or something.

618
00:31:44,636 --> 00:31:46,971
No, it's not like that. It's
not organized.

619
00:31:46,971 --> 00:31:51,109
It's more of a bits and pieces of puzzle
where you need to form

620
00:31:51,109 --> 00:31:52,510
that as an ecosystem.

621
00:31:52,510 --> 00:31:57,015
You need to understand that, and then once
you understand, then you need to map it

622
00:31:57,015 --> 00:32:01,719
to the modern technologies of modern
hardware, modern platform.

623
00:32:01,953 --> 00:32:03,154
What is a solution?

624
00:32:03,154 --> 00:32:04,789
You want to bring it on the table.

625
00:32:04,789 --> 00:32:05,957
So that's itself

626
00:32:05,957 --> 00:32:10,895
we call as a discovery period
and which actually consumes a lot of time.

627
00:32:11,296 --> 00:32:14,098
Imagine that your project

628
00:32:14,098 --> 00:32:17,502
signed up for two years,
almost like four months, five months.

629
00:32:17,502 --> 00:32:23,341
Sometimes you will spend you need to spend
on the discovery period itself.

630
00:32:23,374 --> 00:32:26,678
Otherwise, if this discovery is something,
if you miss,

631
00:32:26,945 --> 00:32:29,881
then whatever you do,
it will not get connected.

632
00:32:29,881 --> 00:32:32,550
End of the day,
you will end up with the problem.

633
00:32:32,550 --> 00:32:35,520
You'll end up with a lot of issues
because now it is.

634
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,290
There are so many companies
who are working with a

635
00:32:39,490 --> 00:32:44,395
modernization effort, but
how many companies are being successful?

636
00:32:44,462 --> 00:32:47,465
That's very important point,
which we need to understand

637
00:32:47,498 --> 00:32:49,500
because I know this is a

638
00:32:49,500 --> 00:32:52,937
this is a multi I would say
that hundreds of thousands of dollars,

639
00:32:52,937 --> 00:32:57,175
when somebody is coming up and saying,
hey, I'm going to do this project for you.

640
00:32:57,275 --> 00:33:01,279
But how many companies are thorough
with that process?

641
00:33:01,279 --> 00:33:04,549
How many people,
how many people are experts in this area?

642
00:33:04,582 --> 00:33:06,951
That's very important.

643
00:33:06,951 --> 00:33:09,387
Well, yeah, you would definitely
want someone to know what they're doing.

644
00:33:09,387 --> 00:33:10,989
And how do you figure that out?

645
00:33:10,989 --> 00:33:12,857
Because, you know,

646
00:33:12,857 --> 00:33:16,027
even in modern programing
there's a lot of really good programmers.

647
00:33:16,027 --> 00:33:17,762
But there are a few that,

648
00:33:17,762 --> 00:33:17,996
you know,

649
00:33:17,996 --> 00:33:18,896
if you get involved with them,

650
00:33:18,896 --> 00:33:21,833
you're never going to have
a finished project or worse.

651
00:33:21,833 --> 00:33:24,469
What are some of the things pitfalls
people can look at?

652
00:33:24,469 --> 00:33:27,939
Ways that people can figure out
how to find somebody to work with.

653
00:33:28,706 --> 00:33:29,674
Yeah. So.

654
00:33:32,110 --> 00:33:33,011
Two things here.

655
00:33:33,011 --> 00:33:36,948
One thing is the first thing
is the background of what project.

656
00:33:36,948 --> 00:33:39,550
What were the some of the projects
which they completed?

657
00:33:39,550 --> 00:33:40,852
That is the very first thing.

658
00:33:40,852 --> 00:33:45,356
And second thing is what level of the code
base or a data conversion.

659
00:33:45,356 --> 00:33:50,762
They participated in it because these two
are two pillars I would call that for.

660
00:33:50,995 --> 00:33:51,662
I would call it.

661
00:33:51,662 --> 00:33:54,665
As for the mainframe modernization,

662
00:33:55,099 --> 00:33:57,502
any of the pillar,
they don't have enough expertise.

663
00:33:57,502 --> 00:34:02,240
Then that would be very hard to make sure
the project go live successfully.

664
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,876
And also the requirement phase
as I discussed earlier.

665
00:34:04,876 --> 00:34:09,013
So the discovery period that we call it
as that discovery period,

666
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,417
what is their experience
in their discovery period?

667
00:34:12,417 --> 00:34:14,919
How are they going to get requirements?

668
00:34:14,919 --> 00:34:18,756
Or believe me when I say this,
even at the client side,

669
00:34:19,357 --> 00:34:24,095
most of them, they don't even know
there are certain critical items.

670
00:34:24,095 --> 00:34:25,663
They don't have documentation.

671
00:34:25,663 --> 00:34:29,634
They don't if they ask you, okay,
how this application, how this code

672
00:34:29,634 --> 00:34:33,471
is supporting this feature, they said, no,
we don't know that because we don't have

673
00:34:34,105 --> 00:34:35,940
it is working. You are working with it.

674
00:34:35,940 --> 00:34:39,544
That's
why we need some expertise to work in.

675
00:34:39,544 --> 00:34:45,650
Help us move this code from the mainframe
to the latest technologies.

676
00:34:45,650 --> 00:34:46,717
That's where we.

677
00:34:46,717 --> 00:34:50,588
That's so many times
I heard that answer from clients.

678
00:34:50,621 --> 00:34:52,890
Client team especially.

679
00:34:52,890 --> 00:34:53,825
So they are helpless.

680
00:34:53,825 --> 00:34:56,060
In one way,
I would say that they are helpless.

681
00:34:56,060 --> 00:34:57,962
They need some help on this one as well.

682
00:34:59,263 --> 00:35:00,264
Well, you know, your computer

683
00:35:00,264 --> 00:35:03,401
platform can be your business
in a lot of cases it is.

684
00:35:03,434 --> 00:35:04,402
And, you know,

685
00:35:04,402 --> 00:35:06,704
and you kind of touched upon this
a little earlier,

686
00:35:06,704 --> 00:35:09,273
but I want to ask a little bit
more about it because we're not talking,

687
00:35:09,273 --> 00:35:13,578
you know, upgrading from Windows
8 to Windows 10, you're dealing with 40,

688
00:35:13,611 --> 00:35:16,581
50 year old systems, which means
the hardware is completely different.

689
00:35:16,581 --> 00:35:18,816
None of the standardization are there.

690
00:35:18,816 --> 00:35:21,819
It's not like
you can put a flash drive in it or even

691
00:35:21,919 --> 00:35:26,257
I mean, in those days, copying data
between them was a bit of a challenge.

692
00:35:26,491 --> 00:35:27,992
How do you even get in
if you have something

693
00:35:27,992 --> 00:35:29,961
with like a large database
and that type of thing?

694
00:35:29,961 --> 00:35:32,497
Is there a process in place
to be able to do that

695
00:35:32,497 --> 00:35:36,434
come from a mainframe to modern,
you know, cloud hosting or whatever it is

696
00:35:36,434 --> 00:35:39,437
you might be doing?
And how does that work?

697
00:35:40,104 --> 00:35:44,642
So that was reportedly
I was using the discovery period.

698
00:35:44,642 --> 00:35:47,345
Right? In the discovery period,
you will understand.

699
00:35:47,345 --> 00:35:51,315
For example, the client right now
in the mainframe is DB2.

700
00:35:51,415 --> 00:35:55,019
And then they wanted to go on Java
from Java.

701
00:35:55,019 --> 00:35:57,054
They want to jump on the modern platforms.

702
00:35:57,054 --> 00:36:00,057
They want they can go on the or

703
00:36:00,124 --> 00:36:02,860
or they can go on the DB2.

704
00:36:02,860 --> 00:36:04,262
They can go on the SQL server.

705
00:36:04,262 --> 00:36:08,733
Again, the choice
of going on those platforms depends on the

706
00:36:08,833 --> 00:36:13,237
the conversion part, the core
which you are getting from the mainframe.

707
00:36:13,271 --> 00:36:17,742
If your mainframe code is okay,
let me put it in this way.

708
00:36:17,742 --> 00:36:20,945
If you want to go to the deep
from DB2 mainframe to DB2,

709
00:36:22,380 --> 00:36:24,382
AWS EC2 instance,

710
00:36:24,382 --> 00:36:28,319
most of the time it is a
you will do is a lift and shift,

711
00:36:28,319 --> 00:36:32,590
and some part of the code
you will rewrite it, but not everything.

712
00:36:32,590 --> 00:36:37,795
But if you want to go from your mainframe
to the Oracle or a SQL server platform,

713
00:36:37,795 --> 00:36:40,665
there are certain elements
which will be involved, like

714
00:36:40,665 --> 00:36:46,137
you need to do a lot of rewriting and also
how your application will function.

715
00:36:46,137 --> 00:36:46,671
What is that?

716
00:36:46,671 --> 00:36:47,972
You are looking at it.

717
00:36:47,972 --> 00:36:50,841
So how many tables
you are bringing on table?

718
00:36:50,841 --> 00:36:53,177
How much data
you are bringing on to table?

719
00:36:53,177 --> 00:36:57,148
What effort
you are going to keep to do a code

720
00:36:57,148 --> 00:37:00,451
rewriting,
or you're going to just lift and shift it.

721
00:37:00,451 --> 00:37:05,122
When you lift and shift it will
your code will your application functions

722
00:37:05,122 --> 00:37:10,494
as it is functioning in mainframe
once it reaches its destination in DB2.

723
00:37:11,395 --> 00:37:14,398
So these are all the components
which you need to think.

724
00:37:14,432 --> 00:37:17,535
And also there is a lot of automation
nowadays we are doing in it.

725
00:37:17,535 --> 00:37:19,937
Earlier there was everything is manual.

726
00:37:19,937 --> 00:37:24,342
But right now since last few years,
I would say that few years

727
00:37:24,775 --> 00:37:28,279
we started working on a lot of automation.

728
00:37:28,579 --> 00:37:33,517
We developed certain utilities
which will help us converting the code

729
00:37:33,651 --> 00:37:39,056
into the natural, into the Java,
and from Java that is going to convert

730
00:37:39,056 --> 00:37:44,495
into the sequels, those sequels
you will be deploying in the your target.

731
00:37:44,562 --> 00:37:46,931
It can be DB2 or it can be Oracle.

732
00:37:46,931 --> 00:37:50,434
So you're going to deploy them
in the your database layer.

733
00:37:50,434 --> 00:37:52,670
So this is the end to end

734
00:37:52,670 --> 00:37:56,507
on a very high level
I would say that this is how you do that.

735
00:37:57,141 --> 00:37:57,575
Yeah.

736
00:37:57,575 --> 00:38:01,078
So yeah wow you're talking just data.

737
00:38:01,078 --> 00:38:02,380
What happens if

738
00:38:03,614 --> 00:38:06,517
your your
your software is actually talking

739
00:38:06,517 --> 00:38:10,855
to hardware
that's programed with old stuff.

740
00:38:10,955 --> 00:38:14,992
And if you don't realize that
that could be really bad

741
00:38:15,693 --> 00:38:16,594
I'll give you one.

742
00:38:16,594 --> 00:38:17,762
Let me give you one example.

743
00:38:17,762 --> 00:38:21,065
In one of the recent projects,
what happened is the mainframe.

744
00:38:21,098 --> 00:38:22,466
They do have this DB2.

745
00:38:22,466 --> 00:38:28,773
And then we almost for the actual project
divided into two phases.

746
00:38:28,839 --> 00:38:33,110
So the first phase
we have only two applications

747
00:38:33,110 --> 00:38:35,579
we want to bring as a
as part of the testing.

748
00:38:35,579 --> 00:38:36,147
And the client

749
00:38:36,147 --> 00:38:41,585
want to see how this is going to happen,
because it's almost like 40 plus years.

750
00:38:41,619 --> 00:38:46,090
They never touched about,
I mean, moving away from the mainframe

751
00:38:46,090 --> 00:38:47,458
or anything
because they're really worried.

752
00:38:47,458 --> 00:38:51,696
And this is a federal claim
and they don't want to do anything to it

753
00:38:51,696 --> 00:38:53,698
unless it is very much proven.

754
00:38:53,698 --> 00:38:56,701
So the case is here.

755
00:38:57,134 --> 00:38:59,370
There are we we we are

756
00:38:59,370 --> 00:39:03,774
we are successful in getting the data
of boarded from the mainframe.

757
00:39:03,774 --> 00:39:07,945
But there are certain tables
which we cannot do that.

758
00:39:08,512 --> 00:39:13,317
Now, the question is, if you are unable
to bring the complete data out

759
00:39:13,317 --> 00:39:18,789
of that mainframe, then you will not call
that as an complete migration.

760
00:39:18,789 --> 00:39:22,960
So where I'm coming from is
there will be a tailor

761
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,797
made solutions for everything
in the application modernization area.

762
00:39:26,797 --> 00:39:31,402
So what we've done is
we worked with another vendor there.

763
00:39:31,435 --> 00:39:32,703
They're called as a rocket.

764
00:39:32,703 --> 00:39:36,374
And they do this
kind of a replication between any

765
00:39:36,774 --> 00:39:40,578
they developed a replication tool
between any source to any target.

766
00:39:40,611 --> 00:39:44,982
So what we have done is
we started replicating the data

767
00:39:44,982 --> 00:39:48,419
from mainframe to the the target oracle,

768
00:39:49,387 --> 00:39:50,521
instead of

769
00:39:50,521 --> 00:39:53,958
copying everything,
moving out everything in this way

770
00:39:54,825 --> 00:39:58,963
we we copy we replicated in a
it's a live replication.

771
00:39:58,963 --> 00:40:03,634
We did it for almost 75 days.

772
00:40:03,634 --> 00:40:08,239
And then we, we had this breakpoint,

773
00:40:08,272 --> 00:40:11,242
which means that a cut over on a weekend,

774
00:40:11,242 --> 00:40:15,413
we did a cut over in the application
connected within Oracle point here.

775
00:40:15,513 --> 00:40:19,350
So why I'm bringing this is
this is really really hard

776
00:40:19,383 --> 00:40:23,454
because our application
is so much optimized to the mainframe.

777
00:40:23,454 --> 00:40:27,224
And if all of a sudden
if you want to bring it and attach it

778
00:40:27,224 --> 00:40:31,028
to the different target
modernize platforms,

779
00:40:31,028 --> 00:40:34,799
we have, we face a lot of challenges
and we learned a lot.

780
00:40:34,832 --> 00:40:37,835
We developed a lot of tailor
made solutions like

781
00:40:38,302 --> 00:40:41,305
this is the one simple example
which I explained.

782
00:40:41,472 --> 00:40:43,741
It's not
I would say it's not an easy task.

783
00:40:45,276 --> 00:40:46,410
Now I'm going to ask about

784
00:40:46,410 --> 00:40:48,813
an example because this was something
that I experienced with.

785
00:40:48,813 --> 00:40:51,415
It was a government project,
and this was a few years ago,

786
00:40:51,415 --> 00:40:54,852
and they were on a mainframe
COBOL type set up.

787
00:40:54,919 --> 00:40:56,420
Like what we've been talking about.

788
00:40:56,420 --> 00:40:59,256
And their solution,
I didn't work with the conversion,

789
00:40:59,256 --> 00:41:01,358
and I'm what
I didn't because I still have hair.

790
00:41:01,358 --> 00:41:02,193
I don't think I would have

791
00:41:02,193 --> 00:41:04,795
if I had been involved
with what they were doing,

792
00:41:04,795 --> 00:41:08,599
because what they were trying to do
was say, okay, we're going to replicate

793
00:41:08,599 --> 00:41:14,638
the mainframe in a virtual host
on a new environment, and they set it up.

794
00:41:14,672 --> 00:41:16,774
And it would
they never did get it to work.

795
00:41:16,774 --> 00:41:21,111
And I think it's what you were saying
is it's tied to the hardware in some way.

796
00:41:22,012 --> 00:41:24,415
Have you ever seen
something like that work or is it always

797
00:41:24,415 --> 00:41:27,418
where you do have to actually convert
it over to something modern?

798
00:41:30,354 --> 00:41:33,691
So what is the point which you think

799
00:41:35,025 --> 00:41:39,263
a little bit in this situation
or not able to comprehend what went there?

800
00:41:39,263 --> 00:41:41,398
I would like you to repeat
that one more time for me,

801
00:41:41,398 --> 00:41:44,902
so that I can put my mind there
and answer your question.

802
00:41:44,935 --> 00:41:47,071
Just repeat that. What is absolutely no.

803
00:41:47,071 --> 00:41:50,074
So what was going on is
they had the legacy system,

804
00:41:50,140 --> 00:41:53,344
and they didn't really want to get
into rewriting

805
00:41:53,344 --> 00:41:56,347
the actual cobalt software.

806
00:41:56,347 --> 00:41:59,283
So what they wanted
and there was a hardware failure

807
00:41:59,283 --> 00:42:00,918
part of this that they couldn't fix.

808
00:42:00,918 --> 00:42:05,222
So they tried to recreate
the original mainframe virtually.

809
00:42:05,990 --> 00:42:08,259
Oh, okay.

810
00:42:08,259 --> 00:42:08,692
Got it.

811
00:42:08,692 --> 00:42:11,095
Like I said, that didn't work too well.

812
00:42:11,095 --> 00:42:12,496
No, no.

813
00:42:12,496 --> 00:42:15,499
So there are certain tools right now,

814
00:42:15,666 --> 00:42:19,103
most of the huge companies
they developed in host,

815
00:42:19,136 --> 00:42:22,139
what they're going to do
is they're going to bring their data

816
00:42:22,373 --> 00:42:27,878
into their utility, into their tool,
and then that tool will actually do

817
00:42:27,878 --> 00:42:32,616
this conversion into the different
whatever your target is.

818
00:42:32,616 --> 00:42:37,521
But end of the day, if your target
is equal server Oracle or if your DB2,

819
00:42:38,222 --> 00:42:41,625
it will develop the sequence where
you need to go ahead and deploy those.

820
00:42:41,659 --> 00:42:45,029
Even right now, the automation
reach it to a certain extent,

821
00:42:45,362 --> 00:42:49,433
to third extent that all you have to do
is build a pipeline.

822
00:42:49,433 --> 00:42:53,103
The data will travel through the pipeline
to the staging and from staging.

823
00:42:53,103 --> 00:42:57,341
That conversion will happen
and from their data will use

824
00:42:57,675 --> 00:43:00,778
another pipeline
which will send it to the database.

825
00:43:00,811 --> 00:43:02,146
Now, the human intervention

826
00:43:02,146 --> 00:43:05,950
is very much required
because the character set issues or the

827
00:43:06,016 --> 00:43:09,920
worker issues, there are a lot of issues
which will jump into the picture.

828
00:43:09,954 --> 00:43:14,024
You need to sort that out
and then you will correct the data.

829
00:43:14,058 --> 00:43:17,795
You will correct those lens
calmness and everything

830
00:43:17,795 --> 00:43:21,498
and then you will send it to the target.

831
00:43:21,699 --> 00:43:22,333
Yeah,

832
00:43:23,634 --> 00:43:24,868
there are so many

833
00:43:24,868 --> 00:43:28,305
options right now
because this is something each and every

834
00:43:28,339 --> 00:43:32,443
consulting company would like to move
ahead and challenge this project.

835
00:43:32,443 --> 00:43:36,380
But thing is,
this will definitely take take.

836
00:43:36,413 --> 00:43:36,880
Definitely.

837
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:40,651
It will take decades
for all the existing organizations

838
00:43:40,818 --> 00:43:42,620
to move away from the mainframe.

839
00:43:42,620 --> 00:43:46,490
It's not going to happen immediately
in next, you know, 5 or 6 years.

840
00:43:46,790 --> 00:43:47,958
This has got a great life.

841
00:43:47,958 --> 00:43:50,961
Who is doing this modernization effort?

842
00:43:50,961 --> 00:43:52,997
So is your client base
strictly people doing

843
00:43:52,997 --> 00:43:56,000
conversions?

844
00:43:57,201 --> 00:43:59,003
So conversions

845
00:43:59,003 --> 00:44:01,972
as well as rewriting Ellsworth.

846
00:44:02,773 --> 00:44:04,708
Okay, that sounds that sounds good.

847
00:44:04,708 --> 00:44:07,711
So tell us,
how does somebody get Ahold of you?

848
00:44:08,712 --> 00:44:11,749
Okay,
so when you say somebody get hold of me.

849
00:44:11,815 --> 00:44:14,752
Since I work with
and I'm not a freelancer, I'm

850
00:44:14,752 --> 00:44:17,755
working with an organization,
so it's a tough

851
00:44:18,122 --> 00:44:21,058
I would say it's a for profit organization
in this world.

852
00:44:21,058 --> 00:44:22,960
Right. Consulting firm. So

853
00:44:24,395 --> 00:44:25,763
the moment we have

854
00:44:25,763 --> 00:44:29,533
this Ahrefs and all those we work,
we go ahead

855
00:44:29,533 --> 00:44:33,871
and give this presentation to the client
and we refer to that.

856
00:44:33,871 --> 00:44:36,306
We understand what
what is their pain area. Why is that?

857
00:44:36,306 --> 00:44:40,411
They are looking for this opportunity
to move away from the mainframe.

858
00:44:40,411 --> 00:44:46,850
And then we'll spend more time
to articulate and ensure that we

859
00:44:47,551 --> 00:44:49,920
give them a very good presentation
saying that, hey,

860
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,122
this is your problem,
this is what we want to do.

861
00:44:52,122 --> 00:44:55,392
Or these are the multiple approaches
talking about the budget

862
00:44:55,392 --> 00:44:58,395
and all those things. So that's sort of

863
00:44:58,595 --> 00:45:02,499
the flow is so that's
how somebody can catch

864
00:45:02,533 --> 00:45:06,704
hold of a person who is working for
this kind of data conversion

865
00:45:06,704 --> 00:45:09,773
and data rewriting, application
modernization.

866
00:45:11,942 --> 00:45:13,310
Now I mean sounds amazing.

867
00:45:13,310 --> 00:45:14,978
Is there anything
else you want to tell us?

868
00:45:16,914 --> 00:45:19,917
I would say that this has got
a great future right now where would like

869
00:45:19,917 --> 00:45:24,121
to invest their learning things
because they in doubt everybody is on AI.

870
00:45:24,154 --> 00:45:24,855
I would agree.

871
00:45:24,855 --> 00:45:25,856
Yes, you need to be on,

872
00:45:25,856 --> 00:45:29,793
but at the same time
you are looking at a decade future here.

873
00:45:29,793 --> 00:45:34,531
So I'm sure that if somebody really
wants to invest on because this is not

874
00:45:34,598 --> 00:45:38,936
particularly about the core,
every component is involved in this.

875
00:45:39,002 --> 00:45:42,706
You talk about hardware,
you talk about code, you talk about AI,

876
00:45:43,073 --> 00:45:47,611
you talk about logical thinking,
how you would like to tailor the solution.

877
00:45:47,611 --> 00:45:52,683
Because every solution cannot
be applied to the companies

878
00:45:52,683 --> 00:45:56,120
which are approaching us
for this kind of modernization effort.

879
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,123
So it gives immense,

880
00:45:59,323 --> 00:46:03,694
I would say, experience
as well as you need to be more

881
00:46:04,795 --> 00:46:06,296
and you need to you need to be.

882
00:46:06,296 --> 00:46:10,734
More importantly, I would say that
a large scale thing as it'll roll.

883
00:46:10,834 --> 00:46:13,103
Otherwise
if you say that okay, this is a solution

884
00:46:13,103 --> 00:46:15,939
I implement in X, y, z company,
I will implement 1 to 3.

885
00:46:15,939 --> 00:46:17,674
No, it's not going to happen.

886
00:46:17,674 --> 00:46:23,147
And I shared my articles as well as in
many of the forums as well as.

887
00:46:23,147 --> 00:46:27,718
So I was speaking with some of the
I was developing networking on this as,

888
00:46:28,252 --> 00:46:31,655
so I had a quite a few conferences,

889
00:46:31,655 --> 00:46:34,658
which I happen when I have some time.

890
00:46:35,559 --> 00:46:37,761
Then believe me,
out of the interest on this,

891
00:46:37,761 --> 00:46:39,797
I started doing my doctorate as well.

892
00:46:39,797 --> 00:46:43,433
So I was really, really impressed.

893
00:46:43,433 --> 00:46:47,271
The way we are articulating
and touch pacing within each

894
00:46:47,271 --> 00:46:49,706
and every piece of the technology. Mostly

895
00:46:51,475 --> 00:46:52,109
ready.

896
00:46:52,109 --> 00:46:53,677
Well,
listen, thanks so much for joining us.

897
00:46:53,677 --> 00:46:55,312
This has all been really interesting.

898
00:46:55,312 --> 00:46:58,749
And the more I'm looking at it,
I'm glad experts like you are out there,

899
00:46:58,749 --> 00:47:01,752
because I'm not sure I'd want to

900
00:47:02,119 --> 00:47:02,920
or even be able

901
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:06,757
to deal with something like that,
but it is a very valid what you bring up,

902
00:47:06,757 --> 00:47:10,594
because there is so much out there
that still runs a surprising amount.

903
00:47:10,627 --> 00:47:14,198
You would never guess that much code
is still running on stuff

904
00:47:14,198 --> 00:47:16,667
that was written in the 70s and 80s
so well.

905
00:47:16,667 --> 00:47:18,869
Thank you again for joining us today.

906
00:47:18,869 --> 00:47:20,504
Thank you so much. Have a good day.

907
00:47:20,504 --> 00:47:22,272
Talk to you again.

908
00:47:22,272 --> 00:47:25,042
Let me ask you guys a question
on using computers.

909
00:47:25,042 --> 00:47:29,012
Gretchen, what was your first desktop home
micro that you used?

910
00:47:29,513 --> 00:47:30,881
Oh. What brand?

911
00:47:30,881 --> 00:47:31,315
What kind?

912
00:47:31,315 --> 00:47:33,717
Yeah. Oh, it was an Atari.

913
00:47:33,717 --> 00:47:36,720
Atari St, right? Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

914
00:47:36,720 --> 00:47:39,990
And, Bill, I believe yours was a Commodore
Vic 20, right? Yep.

915
00:47:40,023 --> 00:47:41,458
Okay, so let's say

916
00:47:41,458 --> 00:47:45,596
today you had stuff that you wanted
to pull off of either of those computers.

917
00:47:45,596 --> 00:47:49,066
In the case of Bill, your Commodore,
probably on a cassette tape,

918
00:47:49,233 --> 00:47:51,635
although they did have disk drives,
but it probably be on a cassette tape.

919
00:47:51,635 --> 00:47:54,104
Gretchen. Jaws would be on a 3.5in floppy.

920
00:47:54,104 --> 00:47:56,340
What if you
in a completely different language?

921
00:47:56,340 --> 00:47:58,175
It was a different language,
different format.

922
00:47:58,175 --> 00:48:00,277
And modern computers
don't even have a disk drive,

923
00:48:00,277 --> 00:48:01,879
usually much less a tape drive.

924
00:48:01,879 --> 00:48:02,880
And, you know,

925
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:05,415
so this is the kind of things
that they're dealing with

926
00:48:05,415 --> 00:48:07,017
for being able to pull over these systems.

927
00:48:07,017 --> 00:48:10,988
And believe it or not,
there's a lot of stuff still on this

928
00:48:10,988 --> 00:48:15,025
banking, insurance, other things
he spoke to a little bit, but we still see

929
00:48:15,292 --> 00:48:18,695
the old mini and mainframe stuff
around in a lot of different cases.

930
00:48:19,096 --> 00:48:20,697
I'm just wondering how we would do that.

931
00:48:20,697 --> 00:48:23,600
You know, it's interesting,
Bill, in your case, with a cassette,

932
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:28,272
you probably have to find a tape player
somewhere which you can do,

933
00:48:28,305 --> 00:48:31,341
play it on to an MP or your phone
or something to get it digital,

934
00:48:31,341 --> 00:48:34,344
and then play that back into the computer
with some kind of a decoder.

935
00:48:34,778 --> 00:48:36,179
Do you think that would work?

936
00:48:36,179 --> 00:48:39,182
Yeah, it would work. Yeah. Okay.

937
00:48:39,316 --> 00:48:42,019
When you use virtualization
for running the old platforms

938
00:48:42,019 --> 00:48:45,489
and you load off a tape,
that's how you do it now is with an MP3.

939
00:48:45,656 --> 00:48:49,293
So because you're just playing an audio
file, basically

940
00:48:49,559 --> 00:48:52,296
analog or digital,
it doesn't care as long as it can read it.

941
00:48:52,296 --> 00:48:54,665
Rich in yours is a little more complicated

942
00:48:54,665 --> 00:48:56,400
because you can't do that
with a floppy disk.

943
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:57,601
And while there are USB

944
00:48:57,601 --> 00:49:01,271
3.5in drives for the PC that you can get,
at least I think you still can.

945
00:49:01,672 --> 00:49:04,308
You're looking at a different situation
because, like you say,

946
00:49:04,308 --> 00:49:05,776
the formatting is completely different.

947
00:49:05,776 --> 00:49:09,913
So this is an issue and it gets older
computers, the more of an issue it is.

948
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:10,814
Until next week.

949
00:49:10,814 --> 00:49:13,817
This is user friendly 2.0 keeping
you safe on the cutting edge.

950
00:49:14,017 --> 00:49:15,585
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951
00:49:15,585 --> 00:49:18,855
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952
00:49:18,855 --> 00:49:22,359
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953
00:49:22,559 --> 00:49:24,227
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954
00:49:24,227 --> 00:49:28,398
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955
00:49:28,398 --> 00:49:32,202
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956
00:49:32,536 --> 00:49:36,506
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00:49:36,506 --> 00:49:42,913
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