Welcome to the Complete Game podcast where we're all about baseball with Ethan Dungan, owner of Glovehound Baseball glove repair shop.

Rick Finley, founder of Mdni Baseball Academy and the creator of George Foster Baseball, the MVP himself, Reds hall of Famer George Foster.

I'm your host, Greg Dungan.

Now let's talk baseball.

All right.

All right.

Well, welcome back, fellas.

Well, nice to welcome.

Nice to have everybody back in the room.

This week, we're going to be talking about catching catchers and all things behind the plate.

So the title of the episode is what's the Catch?

And you're going to see why.

Why we asked that in a little bit.

I want to let you know that where you can find the podcast, so you can find the podcast at Apple Podcasts, you can find it at Amazon Music, you can find it at Spotify, you can find it at iheartradio.

All the places that you would normally listen to podcasts is you can find this show.

You can also find it on our website@completegame podcast.com and you can find it on YouTube, Facebook, and eventually we'll have the Instagram account rolling.

So just wanted to let you guys know where all you could find the show.

All right, so we're going to start today with our Name5 segment, and we're going to talk about naming five favorite catchers and why they are your favorites.

Now, there's only one person who has not gone first in a Name five, and that's you.

And it's this guy.

It doesn't matter.

So, so my, my, my list is going to be loaded up with guys that George played against, played with, or may have known.

So, and these, these aren't just because George is on the podcast.

These are my favorite catchers.

So I just wanted to let you know we trust these are my favorite catchers.

Okay.

Obviously, we start with Johnny Bench.

Johnny Bench is my favorite catcher.

He is my favorite catcher of all time.

He was my hero growing up.

I wonder why.

I love the guy and, you know, really why.

My, My aunt was a huge Johnny Bench fan.

And she was.

She was like our cool aunt that took us places.

She was single and she, she had, she would.

I was one of three boys, and so she would take us cool places and do things with us and whatever.

She was just fantastic.

I love my aunt Linda to death.

And she was, she was a big Johnny Bench fan, and so she used to take me to ball games.

And so you just kind of pick that up, you know, when you're, when you're with whoever the adult is that takes your places.

And I just really learned to love him, watching him play.

And, you know, it's funny because he.

For a large part of the time I was watching baseball, he wouldn't even catch it.

I mean, because I.

I was born in 73, so, I mean, when you guys were winning World series, I was 2 and 3 years old, right?

So then.

But I remember him sort of later 70s, as I'm getting into Little League.

You know, I'm 6 years old, I'm getting into Little League.

I'm remembering him as, you know, in Those later years, 8081, 83, when he was playing third base, he was playing outfield, he's playing first base, you know, doing whatever.

And so.

But I'm all the while living, you know, years ahead, years behind myself, watching.

She had all the, you know, memorabilia and some things about him, and I'm reading books about him as I'm growing up, his biographies and all that stuff.

So I knew all about those times.

I just didn't get to see him play.

So that's why I love YouTube so much, because I've been able to go back and watch him play from those early.

Those.

His big years, like 70, 72.

Right.

You know, those early years when he was really tearing it up.

Uh, so that was.

That was a good one.

Johnny Bench, I loved because not only was he just absolutely the best there ever was, the guy was the.

The measurement of all catchers.

It was it, yeah.

So I love that about him.

I love the fact that he was great defensively and he could hit.

That was good power and.

And he was a good personality.

I mean, again, I'm not watching him play, but I'm watching a baseball bunch.

Right?

So I'm seeing him.

I'm seeing Johnny Bench, the personality.

Right.

You know, and I'm seeing him on Hee Haw, and I'm seeing him on, you know, all these different places where he would pop up on television and, you know, whatever.

So I learned to love him from a lot of different angles.

And he was just.

He was my favorite second one talker.

I mean.

The second one was Gary Carter.

And I know, I know.

I took your guy.

I know.

My list is getting smaller.

I know.

Well, I'm going to have you talk about these guys from a completely different angle.

All right.

Hanging there.

But Gary Carter was if it.

He was the next.

The next in line, in.

In.

In all of our minds.

And.

And I watched Gary play because he came a little later and I watched him Play with the Expos.

But then I watched him play with the Mets, you know, when you guys were with the Mets.

And so he also ex.

Absolutely excellent in defense, but he could also hit great baseball.

Mind.

I, I loved a lot of things about Gary Carter.

My third person was Carlton Fisk.

I absolutely loved Carlton Fisk.

Tear this list up.

I'm sorry, I'm sorry you're not going first again.

Well, I'll tell you what.

If George, if I, if I thought of the same people you did, then, then I'm.

No, I made sure I put 15 catchers.

There you go.

Then, then I, That's a, that's, that's impressive.

Carlton Fisk I loved because of the way he commanded the game.

You know, guys would say that playing a game when Carlton Fisk was playing took way longer than playing a game with anybody else because he was, you know, slow back and forth to the mound and he'd go out there until the umpire make him come back.

And he was, you know, constantly just controlling the pace of the game that pitchers would just do what he said because it was just easier because he was so hard headed.

They trusted him.

Yeah.

But he studied and he knew the batters and he was, There was no question.

Pudge was in control what was going on.

And that's, that's the other interesting thing is when Ethan was coming up and he's following Rodriguez and he's keep saying Pudge and I'm like, wait a minute, that's Carlton Fisk.

I, you know, yeah, he was the guy.

I knew that as, that.

So I loved Carlton Fisk.

He played hard.

He was out there to win.

He was out there to.

It was, you're going to do it, do it the best you could possibly do it.

And I admired that and I admired the way, the way he approached the game.

So those three guys and then Tony Pena with, with the.

Who I will remember as a pirate.

Yes.

Even though I remember as a pirate.

And as a cardinal without the patch on his eye.

Yeah, a pirate and a cardinal and mostly Tony Pena for the, for, for, you know, the leg out.

He was one of the early guys to do the leg out.

May have been the first guy to do the leg out.

I don't know.

But he was, yeah.

Manny San Gan.

Oh, man.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Manny San Gan.

So he was.

But Tony Pena, the, the thing I love about Tony Pena, not only was he a great player, okay.

He played and these guys played a long time.

That's the thing.

Carlton Fisk played for 24 years.

Yeah.

Along any kite for 25.

Tony Pena caught for 18 years.

I mean, these guys could.

Could still be doing it.

I mean, they were.

They were so good at it.

But Tony Pena, I will never forget.

I watched a.

I watched a special on Tony Pena one time, and the.

Just the quality of human being is he was an amazing human being.

The guy came from nothing in the.

In the Dominican working rice fields.

His dad was a farmer, his mom was a teacher.

You know, he.

He had said in the interview that when you did the kind of work they did, you tried your very best to be good at baseball because.

Right.

You know, it got you.

Got you out of there.

But the first thing he did was go back and start giving back to his community immediately.

They're.

They're great in doing that.

Yes, they are.

And, you know, he.

At this, to this day, he owns five farms and doesn't make a dime on any of them.

They just exist to employ people.

That's great.

He.

His family operated.

Great humanitarian.

Yeah.

His family operates one of the largest bottled water manufacturing facilities in.

In Dominican because clean water is a.

Is a real issue down there.

Just interesting story.

The president of the Dominican came to Tony at one point in time, according to this thing that I watched and asked you, you've done so much for the country.

What can I do for you?

And Tony said, you can pave the high.

You can pave the road from the highway to my town.

And that's what he did.

That was, that was his one request, was you could get the road paved so that my people can get to the highway.

And so.

What a great insight.

Yeah.

What a great human being.

And another thing that we'll talk about later was he transitioned to managing.

So one of the guys who.

One of the many catchers who transitioned to managing so that I loved about Tony Pena.

And finally, a guy I never saw play, but a guy I've always loved was Yogi Berra.

And you know what's funny?

Yogi is known for, you know, all the.

The funny things that he said, which a lot of times aren't even necessarily exactly what he said, but funny.

Very funny.

Very funny guy.

But he also put up hall of Fame numbers.

I know.

You know, I mean, we think of him as that guy who says the funny stuff.

And he.

But he.

As a jokester.

Yeah.

And he submitted himself as a.

A legend and a fixture in the game forever, both as a player and as a personality and as a manager.

So great.

I would have liked to have seen him play.

I've Seen Phil, but I, you know.

Yeah, he's a short guy too.

Probably only 5, 8, 5, 9.

Yeah, 5, 7, 5, 7.

Got it right here.

So the, so the connection would be George played with Johnny Bench.

You played with Gary Carter.

You would have played against Tony Pena, you would have played against Carlton.

Carlton Fisk.

And with.

With the White Sox.

Carlton, that's right.

And for the time you were with the White Sox.

Yes.

And then Yogi Berra had been a previous manager of the Mets before you got there in like the mid-70s.

Well, my roommate, Ken Griffey Senior played with the Yankees.

So Yogi was there, I think as a coach.

Okay, that was my next question because I know he coached both the Yankees and the Mets.

Right.

And so he might have been somebody that you may have met somewhere along the line or at least knew something.

About most of the golf outings.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

Anyway, those are my five guys.

Those are my, that was pretty good.

My people.

Those are.

All right.

So Ethan, who do you have?

I'm gonna bring us up to be a little more current here.

Oh, no, current.

My first guy.

The, the question is favorite catchers.

And this is ironic because for the majority of my baseball fandom, he was my least favorite catcher.

But that is Yadier Molina.

Say it on air, if you say that on air.

Well, I just did.

Okay.

Okay.

Which one though?

Which, which one?

You say Yadier Molina.

I said.

Thought you said Molina.

But the, the plug for that.

The dad made all three brothers catchers and all three of them got a chance to make it to the major league.

And that's what I wanted to say earlier.

That catching will get you to big leagues quick, especially if you're a switch hitter or left handed hitting catcher.

Those things will help you to get to the major league on a quicker pace.

Yeah, Jose and Benji Molina.

And Benji.

Right.

Yeah.

But the thing about Yadi Ermolina is he just was undoubtedly the best defensive catcher of my time.

And he was a Cardinal and that was the time when the Cardinals and the Reds were really kind of beefing a lot.

And he's always ended up being in the middle of a lot of those, a lot of those fights.

And so I never liked him very much of that.

Right.

Yeah.

Him and Brandon Phillips.

Him when I loved Brandon Phillips.

So I'm like, he's, he's my, my guy's enemy.

Like, I can't like him.

But as I got older, I just had such a tremendous amount of respect for him.

The leadership that he provided to that Cardinals team.

Yes.

The long, the longevity as I say.

Another guy who caught for a long time.

For a long time.

And he was, he was a Jordan athlete which, which was always cool.

He had the Jordan catchers gear, you know.

Yeah.

And not everybody just, you know, gets to have that.

So.

Yeah, definitely, definitely earned some respect for him.

Let's see my number two guy.

I'm going to go with Salvador Perez, a guy who's still, who's still getting it done.

He's kind of, kind of the last of the, of that slightly older generation.

He's the last guy from the 2015 Royals World Series team that's still playing.

A guy who from what I've, from what I understand was just a great personality in the locker room.

Great leader.

Always managed to get it done with the bat too, which is cool.

He had that huge 20, 21 season and he 48 home runs and 140 something RBIs.

That broke the record catching.

I believe it did.

Yeah.

So, and so he's not far behind.

Yeah, he's not far behind Brian McCann and home runs.

He's not far behind Johnny Bench in home runs either.

So if he gets a couple more years in there, he could be top five home runs all time for a catcher.

So we'll see.

He's, he's still going strong, but always cool to see, to get, to see him play.

Let's see, number three.

I'll go with J.T.

romuto, a guy who's, you know, got, still got some life on him.

But I picked him because of his pop time.

He's led the league in pop time since 2017.

And before that he was, he was still top five in pop time.

But a guy who averages a 15 or a 185 in game, so that's not just you know, checking it on the field in practice.

That's in game numbers.

That's awesome.

And that's just, that's very impressive.

And another guy who gets it done with the bat as well.

So it's cool to see him with the Phillies.

He was kind of down there grinding it out with the Marlins for a while and then they got rid of all their, all their talent.

Everybody out of here.

Yeah.

We can't pay you, but always love watching J.T.

romuto.

Let's see.

Those are good, those.

I got a couple here.

I'm trying to, trying to figure out which ones I want to say.

Time's running.

Tick, tick.

No, okay, I'll go, I'll go.

Another one here.

I'll mention Pudge My Pudge, Ivan Rodriguez.

All right, so He's.

He's number two all time.

That's five of my list.

Five.

Yes.

I'm sorry.

He's number one in Gold Gloves all time.

So with 13.

So you can't.

Can't not mention him.

Yes, 13.

But the other thing I want to say about Pudge is that he had a very popular glove model with Wilson.

He had.

He had a glove called the Pudge.

Yeah.

So that's.

It's always cool when you see, you know, Jordan has the shoes.

You know, Pedroia had the DP15 model glove.

So it's always cool when you get a piece of equipment that is kind of pioneered by one player and it continues to go on even after they're playing.

So it's always.

It's always cool to see that.

And I.

I still work on, I don't know, probably three to five pudges every single year, you know, the catcher's mitt, just because it was so popular at the time.

So that was.

That was a big deal in the glove world, for sure.

He had a.

It was cool kind of orange, tan and black.

And there would be different models of that, you know, year to year.

But, yeah, definitely have to.

Have to mention his influence there.

And another guy who played forever, he played for 21 years, from 91 to 2011.

So not a guy that I got to see a lot, but definitely a legend at the position, for sure.

And then I'll go, last but not least, here I'll go Jose Trevino.

Jose Trevino has a special place in my heart because I got to work.

I got to work on his glove.

But who's Jose?

Hey, Hip hip Joseph.

But he did.

He is a platinum glove winner.

So you got to give him his flowers there.

Did you repair his glove?

I did.

Yeah, you did.

With the platinum labels on it.

So that was cool.

That was pretty cool.

It was the coolest glove I'd ever seen.

Yeah.

So he'll always have a special place in my heart because it was cool to get that opportunity.

And such a nice guy.

Very, very nice guy.

So very.

Kind of happy to meet him, though, sometime.

Sometime throughout the first pitch.

Oh, but.

And I'll mention about his glove.

He uses a 36 inch.

That's.

It's massive.

When I got it.

When I got it in the mail, I looked at it and I was just blown away.

I was like, this is bigger than any glove I've ever seen.

Huge.

Have massive hands on fingers and his.

So I looked at the model on it.

And it's the Travis Darno model.

I was like, that's weird.

You can't buy that in stores.

You have to, you have to have it custom ordered.

And so Travis Darno, he had his own model that was 36.

And so Jose wanted to use that model.

So it's just absolutely massive.

And it's also interesting because then Tyler Stevenson, this, this last year, he went to Wilson to ask for a 35.

So the catcher's mitts are getting bigger, but a lot of people might not know how big of a glove that he's using right now.

But we're kind of trending in that position.

So anyway, I'll wrap it there.

But some cool glove insight about guys like that.

Yeah, but I just wondered what size Johnny Bench's mitt was because he had massive, massive hands too.

That's interesting.

Yes.

But I guess they're using the bigger mitts now so they can frame.

Well, yeah, frame the ball.

That's a lot of what it is.

And you're seeing guys move their fingers over, so you're doing two in the pinky.

So rather than catching like this, it's almost more like this.

And I think part of it is keeping the thumb, you're keeping the thumb down, kind of scooping up through it.

And guys throw hard now, harder than they used to.

Why you look at me?

Adam Dunn said that to me.

He said, the guy's throw harder now.

I said, well, they may be bigger, smarter, but they're not.

I mean, they may be bigger, taller and faster, but they weren't smarter.

That was my response to that.

I said, you big donkey.

Okay, who you got, George?

Well, you got left.

What is left?

I had to go down to Japan, you know.

So this guy, he's in the hall of Fame now.

Ted Simmons, a switch hitter.

It wasn't known for a lot as far as his defense, but he did a good job back there and, and he's more known for his offense and I always love watching him play, except when we playing against him.

But he was always consistent at the plate and he was in the shadows of a Johnny Bench.

But always loved him that he did because he, he knew the pitching.

One of the main thing is being a leader out there and taking care of those pitchers.

You go out there and talk to him and, and calm them down.

So Ted, Ted Simmons is probably top of my list other than the 10 guys.

You guys already taken the other guy.

No.

1.

Well, with Montreal, Barry Foote, most of those guys are tall, big and so it's intimidating if you want.

When you trying to score coming home, you don't want to run into those guys.

So Barry Foote was with the bat.

He wasn't once he more defensive and once again, he covered a lot of ground.

But I feel that with a catcher being able to control the ball game and Barry Foot did a good job there.

Had a few injuries that set him back.

The other guy, he's like a brick wall.

Lance Parish.

There you go.

That's the name?

Yes.

The name from the past with Detroit.

Yes.

But I think this guy, every.

Not every day, but three times a day, he's hitting the weights because this guy, you know, nobody wanted to score when he's behind the plate.

He wanted.

The guy who's running, want to call timeout because you don't want to have a collision up there.

But Lance Parish was.

He was a great defensive catcher and he hit.

He gets for some power also.

But you don't want to get in a fight with the Detroit Tigers.

If you do, stay away from Lance if you want to stay healthy.

The other guy, I always looked at the Dodger catchers as dirty because, you know.

Yeah, because social.

One of them.

But this other guy, Steve Yeager.

This guy.

That's right.

But yes, you talking about a cannon of an arm.

And later on, he started to add more to with the offense, but he was.

He was tough behind the plate.

And my.

My game plan, when I go up to the plate, I always know the name of the umpire, know the name of the catcher.

So I would speak to them when I go up there.

So they felt, well, it's not going to bother.

Not going to bother me if they say anything to me.

So I want to start the conversation.

And one game, though, I went up there, you know, I'm really focused.

And then I heard Jager said, okay, let's get a double play.

So now I.

He planted the seed in my mind that I end up hit the ground ball.

I said, oh, next time I got to go up there and just say, hey, how you guys doing?

How's it doing?

And I told.

Yeah, I told Jaeger one time I got this saying that the pitch that's going to be thrown, I have it.

I hit a home run.

He said, well, next time we got to hit you in the head.

I just.

I told you I got it.

I just been honest with you.

But this is going back before Ethan was born.

But Jerry Grody with the.

With the Mets, you know, he had a.

Tom Seaver, had a Nolan Ryan, this one guy, I asked him later on, I said, what would you.

I mean, did you really believe?

And if you believed in yourself as much as everybody else, when they talked about Jerry Koosman, this guy could have been a Hall of Famer.

I'd rather face Tom Seaver than Kuzman.

He had one of the toughest curveballs to pick up, but he didn't.

I don't know if a lot of.

Guys don't have the confidence they can do it.

And.

But he.

But coming into New York, I mean, we always flew in the day of.

You don't get a chance to get a rest now, you're going to face a Tom Seaver.

You're going to face a Nolan Ryan, a Kuzman.

You could be going over nine, over 10.

So you want to try to get that walk in there.

But Jerry Koozman.

But back to Jerry Grody, he was.

He was great defensively.

And to my hard nose, you know, that's another team you don't want to get in a fight with because he.

He's like Pedro Boban.

On our team, they look.

Those guys look for fights.

They want to knock somebody out.

And the other one going with the Cubs, Randy Hundley, he was great behind the plate.

He had a.

Well, Ferguson Jenkins was there, I think Holtzman there.

So.

But being in Wrigley Field, you know, you.

You got to help.

Help your pitchers out.

And it was pretty good back there.

But he's always talking.

He's always talking.

And.

But you.

But he wants to go out there and instigate and get into your mind.

Instigate.

But that's another guy.

You don't want to slide head first in the home plate.

And if you want your fingers left or if you don't want to get kicked in the head.

But back in those days, those guys don't care.

You.

You're gonna.

They're gonna step on you, they gonna kick you, elbow you.

It's like playing football going into the catcher.

But those guys are the ones that stood out for me.

But back to when we're talking about Molina, I really.

I really love watching him.

Cause I know he controlled the game.

He really stood out and did.

And he commanded, you know, this is what we're going to do.

And being that leader.

So those my five.

All right.

Since everyone's.

I'm last today, who do you have left?

Is still.

Pudge is still there.

Johnny Bench is still there.

Yachty still there.

But you guys did not.

And Tony Pena, you guys talked about Benito Santiago.

Oh, there's a good one.

Yes.

Benito Santiago.

I liked him.

He had a cannon from.

Just from one knee.

A spread out.

That's really good about Pina.

They thought he was down on one knee.

Was not gonna make that good throw.

Yes, he had a very flexible.

And he won several.

He was a four time Silver Slugger award winner.

A lot of people don't know that he won three Gold Gloves.

Another person, Manny Sangin, which.

Who was before.

Tony Pena.

Yeah.

I had never heard that name until you just brought it up.

Yeah.

Manny Sang.

Yeah, man.

Dave Parker, the we are family.

He is part of all of that.

Why'd you ring that up?

That's like ptsd.

They were beating us.

Well, I used to hate that.

That I can see playoffs.

Oh man.

I used to be mad.

That's funny.

Yeah, but man, he saying again.

So after him was Tony Pena and then you talking about J.T.

rTO with his arm.

Benito Santiago had a cannon also from.

From that position.

I mean it ball come out and did you know his.

His son played for University of Tennessee.

Benito Santiago Jr.

It just graduated a couple years ago.

Yeah, he's good.

He is an outfielder.

When I don't think he was a catcher.

Surprise.

Yeah.

No.

Bob Boone.

Oh yeah.

Bob Boone.

Yeah.

Seven Gold Gloves, man.

Phillies, man.

He.

He command again.

Another guy that command because he started with the Angels.

I think.

Yes.

Or.

Or did he go to the Angels after the Phillies or did he go or from the Phillies to the Angels?

We have to look it up.

Ethan will look it up.

So I like Bob and he was consistent.

Well, that was that weird stat that I looked up the other week about Bob.

Oh yeah.

Threw out Ricky Henderson more than any other catcher.

Just seemed to have his number.

Yeah, he was.

He was a Philly from 72 to 81 and then an angel from 82 to 80.

I thought it was.

And then a Royal for his last.

Yeah, I remember he.

He was with the Royals and then Pudge, Johnny Bench, Gotti, those guys.

Man, that solidified catching for me.

So that's it.

Had a couple of honorable mentions.

Guys like Mike Matheny.

Yes.

Yeah.

Mike Matheny.

I liked him.

Read Mike Matheny's book.

I highly recommend anybody who's coaching baseball to read Mike Matheny's book.

It was a.

Is a.

I don't remember off the manifesto.

That's what it was.

Yeah.

And he.

Man, what a great book.

Another one that stood out.

Had his career somewhat not shortened, but the equality.

It was shortened with Ray Fosse.

Yeah.

So he was with Cleveland.

He was, he was the next Johnny Bench, so to speak.

And of course, that collision with him at home play with Pete Rose.

Oh, man.

Well, derailed his, derailed his career after that.

Yeah.

And a guy I never knew much about until I went back and started watching a lot of the highlights of you guys in the 70s on, on YouTube that shows up a lot because of the World Series was Thurman Munson.

Oh, yeah.

I didn't know much about Thurman Munson because he was an American League guy.

But Canton, he seems to show up quite a bit there.

Yeah, I didn't mention him any because he, he didn't have a great throwing arm, but he got rid of the ball quickly.

Is that if I have at the one hop or whatever, he's getting rid of the ball.

But of course, he was known for his bad also.

But, but the other part is the leadership, you know, not only on the, on the field, but off the field.

I mean, the clubhouse, you know, having somebody to control the clubhouse.

It was interesting when we were looking at, so sort of the, okay, Johnny bench, his sort of his post catching years, the guys who would fill in or guys who came in after him, Plumber guys you don't hear about.

Right.

Was it, was it Wagner?

What?

Oh, we're at the bench.

Yeah.

But Plumber, Bill Plumber was there mostly.

The other guys, I don't recall their name, but I know there's a few guys that were there later on.

Bill Plummer couldn't hit though, couldn't he?

Well, he, a week back, it was known to be.

But he, he's about Don Werner.

Werner Warner.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But Plummer was just known for his defense.

Yes.

And then I, I, I would say that he was a Sunday, Sunday catcher because he.

Find Johnny Bantry, find Joe Morgan.

They didn't play on Sunday.

I see.

So that's when Doug Flynn would play or Bill Plummer.

So they knew, they knew the role that was good about Sparky.

He let everybody know their role.

So you prepared for it.

Yeah.

And then I always felt badly for the guys who came after Bench in, you know, like guys I remember like Joe Oliver.

Right.

Bo Diaz, some of these guys who were, they were just good platoon catchers.

They were good guys.

But, you know, but you're not going.

To draft anyone as a catcher with Johnny there.

That's what I'm saying.

So you got, you're going to lose out on that.

So you end up getting, you're not going to Get a top catcher.

But getting someone like you say, being platoon or just adequate back there.

Now, the one thing I will throw a plug in for this, you know, Devin Mezeroska.

Mesar.

Oh, yeah, I'll get it out.

Devin.

He.

Mesara.

Devin Mezorocco.

Mezeroco.

That's right.

Too many S's in there.

I don't know why I couldn't say it.

Talk about a guy who had some interesting things going in his career.

Ethan participated in a podcast, if, if anybody hasn't heard it, it's called the hall of Pretty Good.

And it was hosted by a guy Mostly on YouTube, I think, and he had Ethan on as a guest to talk about Mezoraco.

And that was a really interesting episode.

If you, if you're interested in, in picking that up, go check out the hall of Pretty Good.

It was a really interesting conversation.

Yeah.

And I'll shout him out.

He does a, he does a cool thing where he just, he highlights guys that didn't have crazy numbers.

Um, but still we're in the major leagues and it's kind of like, well, you can say they weren't good, but were you in the major leagues kind of thing.

So it's right.

He likes, he likes to highlight those guys.

And since we're on the topic, I'll give a quick shout out to Ryan Hannigan, Devon, Devin Mizaraka and Tucker Barnhart.

Those, those were the.

Tucker.

Yeah, yeah, those, those were the three Cincinnati guys.

The three main Cincinnati guys growing up.

So shout out to them for.

Given me good, good guys to look up to.

I like Tucker because he was a defensive beast.

The thing about Ryan Hanigan was that he wore the hockey style helmet and I, and I thought the two piece was cooler.

So I just didn't think Ryan Hanigan was cool.

That was the problem.

I have a lot of respect for him and what he did for different teams, but when Devin Mazarocco came in, I was like, all right, we got it.

We got somebody different in here.

And then he had that huge 2013 season, right.

And was really going to become something.

And just injuries just, just shut him down.

Another guy that went from Cincinnati to, to New York and had a quick stint with the Mets before hanging it up and now he's coaching at, at University of Pittsburgh.

So it was.

I watched a couple of interviews with him and talk about just a strategic mind.

I would not be surprised if we see him managing in the majors before too long.

You find that the best.

I feel, I feel the best Managers are the ones who are catchers because they've been on both sides of the plate.

So they know offense and they know defense.

And when like Joe Torre, he was managed, I felt he was a good manager because he knew he could talk to the guys about offense, talk to the guys about defense or talk to the pitchers because he's been, been in that situation.

Tucker Barnhart, I give you a little bit of history, been knowing Tucker.

Probably when he was 12 years old, our Westchester Sluggers travel team played against their Indiana Bulls, Indiana Bulls team probably about four or five times.

And he was a shortstop coming up, man.

Interesting.

Yes.

He has a short stop.

He was a good shortstop, man.

To me he was probably one of the best shortstops in the Midwest, truthfully.

He's a switch hitter.

Switch hitter.

He had two home runs against us.

We still beat him though.

Yeah.

Yes, he hit and I like Tucker, I really do.

And just knowing him from all these years and then he transitioned, I believe we played them in, let me see, sophomore year and he was playing catcher at that time and so that's when he made that transition to catcher and then from there and I believe he was going to Georgia Tech and then he signed with Georgia Tech and then I guess the Reds offered him that money.

Yeah, they didn't have the Neil money.

Yes.

Yeah.

So, but yeah, I've been knowing them for a long time since, like I said, since he was 12 years old.

So we played him out four or five times through those years and there's some good competition.

They only beat us one time.

We beat, we lost them in Indianapolis at that time and they beat us pretty good.

I just wish that the guy like Tucker, he still had some years, he can go out there and help a ball club, but it's just, I just wish I could get with him and work, work with it.

On his, his approach at the plate, they went from having a switch hitter to just strictly left handed, but even there, you know, getting a chance, opportunity to play.

When we had come back to the Reds, I think a couple years ago, I was hoping that I get a, I would see him that would bring him up and get a chance to work with him.

I don't know if they trust what I could, could do, but I said, here are the stats.

You know, I hit a little bit and.

But like Ethan was saying earlier about someone said, okay, they would ask me, you didn't that time, you didn't do this or that.

I said, let me see your baseball card.

Oh, you didn't play.

Exactly Experience, but he's a.

He's a guy that, you know, he's.

He struggled offensively, but.

Yeah, and a lot of people are going to.

Are going to solo that out and define his career by that.

But he's a great.

He's a great defensive catcher.

He's got two.

He's got two more Gold Gloves than any of you do, you know, But a guy who's.

Who's still floating around.

And I.

Yeah, I would not be.

I would love to talk to some of his teammates, especially maybe some pitching staffs that he's handled, because I guarantee that there is far more than meets the eye with him.

A guy who's probably leading and providing a lot of clubhouse value that you're not going to see on the stat card.

So there.

There's a reason that he's.

That he still caught 31 games for the Diamondbacks last year.

You know what I mean?

I mean, people are still.

Yeah.

Still need him.

He's still providing value, and I don't think that should be overlooked.

He was one of the first pro ball players that you ever met in person.

Yeah.

There used to be a.

A jersey framing shop over here in Village Green.

And I was down here after school taking a nap one day, and he.

He woke me up.

He said, hey, Tucker Barnard's at the shop down the.

Down the street.

I'm like, okay.

What?

He takes me down there.

There's a picture of me in seventh grade, probably almost as tall as Tucker Barnard.

I'm like.

I'm like half.

I'm half awake and picture with Tucker Barnard.

But it was cool to meet him.

He stood there and talked to us for a while.

He was a very nice guy, but.

Yeah, a great guy to kind of model the game after.

And somebody, I think, gets overlooked too often.

Great guy.

Great guy, great family.

Yes.

Yes, it is.

Right, fam?

So you finished the season last year exhausted from all the travel and the tournaments, and you tossed your gear in a bag where it's been sitting all winter.

Now you're ready for another year.

But your favorite glove that fits just right is an error waiting to happen.

The leather is dry, the laces are brittle, and this year you're on a new team with new colors.

And it sure would be cool if it matched well.

Wouldn't it be great if you had a glove guy who could help you out with that?

That you do?

His name is Ethan, and he owns Glovehound Baseball glove repair shop in Fairfield, Ohio.

Just contact him@glovehound.com and upload pictures of your glove.

He'll give you a call back to talk it over and then you can send it in for a repair, relays, recondition, whatever you need.

If you're in the area, you can even just stop by the shop.

That way you don't have to bother with shipping.

And a lot of times he can even fix it while you wait.

Rawlings, Wilson, Mizuno, All Star, Nakona, he's seen them all.

And he's helped players at all levels, from beginners to pros.

Last year, he worked on a glove that Jose Trevino used in the World Series.

And he can help you, too.

You can find Glovehound on Google, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube and on the web@glovehound.com you're only going to get busier.

So reach out today and give your glove the love it deserves at Glovehound.

In the main thing segment today, we're going to talk about a couple of different things.

We're going to talk about first, what traits or skills make a successful catcher?

What are the things about a person that make you go, that guy would make a great catcher?

Number one, I, I said, when I go in and look at catching is who can block the ball because keeping the runners from advancing eliminate a lot of pass ball, wild pitches and not being afraid to block the ball.

And when you have a guy like that, I'm not as concerned about his bat or his arm, but being able to keep the guys from advancing to another base.

So I work with them hitting fungals, you know, ground balls to him and to block the ball.

But when I start seeing him flinching a little bit, I said, no, that's not a position for you.

That's true.

You got to show that courage back there.

So blocking, you know, eliminating a lot of wild pitches and pass balls.

One of the things I used to do with our MDNI team with Jimmy and a lot of our other catchers, I used to, we used to keep a stat in bullpens.

So how many, how many that you let go or miss balls or anything like that.

And so let's have a stat.

And then after bullpens, whatever they missed, they had their run.

Okay, Run sprints.

Guess what though?

But what we catching gear on?

Yes, yes, yes.

But what we did was since we had three catchers, if the one catcher had to run, the other catchers just say, hey, we'll run with you, because that could happen to us too.

So when we, when I used to go to games, I used to always ask the umpire after the games, like, how did my catchers do?

Is that great?

Because one of the goals is, especially in a youth league, keep the balls off the umpire, get those calls, because guys get.

They get hit at the shoulder, kids miss balls, get hit in the shoulder, hit in the leg and stuff like that.

And then you don't get certain calls, man, because for sure they'd be mad at.

So those are things that I used to teach our.

Our catchers to do, man, is a.

As long as you try to protect him, too.

And also you trying to receive strikes.

So you got a couple of things going on back there.

So I remember that catching saved baseball for me when I first started playing baseball when I was just a little kid.

You know, you end up.

They move you around.

And I was playing outfield and this and that and in different places, and I just.

My brain always going 100 miles an hour.

I always had this sort of.

I don't know, today they'd call it add, but back then it was just.

It was just lots of things going on in my head, right?

And I would get distracted very, very easily if there wasn't something going on all the time.

And I remember my dad said, have you thought about being a catcher?

And he said, you get to be the coach on the field.

That was what he said.

And I thought, wait a minute, now, that sounds interesting to me, right?

You get to touch the ball all the time, and you get to be intricately involved in what's going on.

And then I said, yeah, okay, that's for me.

And he said, now.

But he said, you got to understand the game.

You got to understand what everybody's doing.

You got to give direction.

You got to speak to your teammates.

You got to, you know, you.

You got to take command out there if that's what you're going to do.

You can't go out there and just, you know, not do the job because then you actually hurt your team.

Yes.

And so then I really dug into what it meant to.

To be the sort of the commander, the coach on the field and really got into it, got into trying figuring out what it was about my pitchers and how I could help keep their heads on straight and how I could help them figure out how to get this guy out or get that guy out or how, you know, making sure everybody knew how many outs there were, making sure everybody, they knew what the pitch count was, making sure we knew what this guy did last time, making sure, you know, and so all of that really brought baseball alive for me.

And it Saved it.

That's what you needed to be right.

Involved.

Yeah.

So I look at young kids now, and I say, man, you got a kid who's a thinker.

You got a kid who.

Who is a natural leader.

He's got confidence in himself.

He can take control of a situation.

But he's.

He's not the kind of guy that everybody dislikes.

He's the kind of guy that.

That sort of inspires loyalty.

He's the person who works hard and emulates that work ethic that every other body.

Because you can't.

You can't be a catcher and let everybody else out work.

It's just not being passive.

Yeah.

Can't be passive.

Yeah.

You got to be the person who goes out there and takes it by the horns and makes it happen.

I think it's funny that.

That you bring up Jimmy Nugent and then you bring up not being able to focus because.

Because Jimmy was like that.

He was like that.

So trust me.

So I played.

I played.

I played with Jimmy in Little League, and when we first started playing, he was.

He was the backup catcher to me because I was older.

Yeah.

And so he played a lot of third base.

Yes.

And that kid just had so much energy, and it was impossible to keep him focused on anything.

And then, you know, we went our separate ways and he became a way better catcher than I ever did.

But it.

But it was funny because he struggled in the field because he needed to be behind that plate in order to keep him focused.

But that was the same thing with me playing.

I tried to play third or first base in Coach Pitch because I wanted something to happen.

So catching was really kind of more action.

Yeah, yeah, it was.

It was the thing for me in Little League because I.

I would just.

I couldn't stay focused anywhere else.

The other thing I look for in a catcher is somebody who can stay calm when the pressure is on.

Like, somebody has got to keep their head on straight.

When you're getting run on, especially in those.

Those.

Those youth games where, you know, it's just like 500 steals a game and everybody, you know, just running.

All of you.

Somebody's got to be able to say, okay, hold on, on.

Let's get our heads back on and.

And stop this momentum, stop the chaos, get everything back together.

And, you know, your.

Your pitcher's coming undone because he's trying to figure out what to do out there, and the coach is getting frustrated.

And, you know, somebody's got to be able to keep it together.

And if you got a guy And Ethan was this kid.

I, that's one of the things why I, I encouraged him to be a catcher early on because he was the kind of kid who just didn't like lose his mind over stuff.

He was always able to stay calm and keep his teammates calm.

And if you can do that, I think you're doing everybody well.

He's a catcher.

Like say, being a coach on the field and also being a leader.

Yes.

I remember with Sparky and John McNamara, some of the other managers, they would come out and ask Johnny, you know, how's he throwing?

Johnny may like shake his head, like, get somebody loose.

Or he may say, you know, I haven't caught one yet.

No.

But like I say, the catcher has an idea if the ball's moving.

Yes.

Or not moving.

But, but having a guy that's going to be honest.

Yes.

And let you know.

Okay.

Because I remember we, we went to, I think Louisville and my pitcher, he was, he was a relief pitcher, maybe two or three innings in the beginning, but he was throwing a pitch that I was asking the catcher, I said, what is he throwing?

And he like, say, nevermind, or something like that.

Don't be concerned about it.

But because he didn't want to tell me what it was because the opposition would know.

Oh.

And they said, don't worry about it.

So then he called another pitch and the guy got a hit.

I said, keep calling that same pitch.

I said, why didn't you throw that pitch again?

Well, the catcher called, I said, no, keep throwing that same pitch.

But now they were on the same page and, and each inning the other guys would say, is he still in?

I said, yeah, he's throwing a one hitter.

He's still in the game.

But that catcher has an idea how the breaking ball is breaking or how the fastball is moving.

So it gets, you can get a lot of information, like a computer out there, a lot of information to let you know, take him out or warm up somebody else or keep him in the game.

Well, and the ability to talk to all the batters that I, I love that.

Oh my gosh, I love that.

I loved getting in their heads and messing and you know, when, when the movie Bull Durham came out, I remember I was watching the girl I was dating at the time we were watching it and, and she was laughing at Kevin Costner.

I said, that's the way it is.

Right.

I'm like, good catchers will do that.

They're just constantly in your distraction all the time.

But that's the one thing with, with Pete, he didn't.

Number one, he didn't like to face a new guy as a first of pitcher.

And he doesn't like to catch her talking to him.

So he's telling the umpire, you know, tell him to be quiet.

And the umpire's like, I can't control that.

But they knew that he didn't like that.

So he's, hey, how you doing today?

Are you still in the top 10 and hitting?

Oh, nice shoes.

You got some new shoes.

That's funny.

Yeah, I mean, that was the thing.

I, I taught Ethan to do that when I was like, when you get on base, man, just start talking to him.

Just ask him about anything.

Ask them what they had for breakfast, whatever.

Just get.

And they'll look at you like, why are you talking to me?

And they get all freaked out about it.

Well, Will Clark, I mean, first basing.

But I really dislike being at first base.

Cuz he said, hey, I read about you.

You know, you, you're good, you.

I was like, I don't, I want to say I don't care, but I didn't want to start a conversation with him.

He's talking about everything.

And I said, I got to get out of here.

I got to get the second base.

Yeah, I think you, you know, I, I will always contend that the, the team that talks more stands a way better chance of winning that game.

Because if you are talking, especially you're talking to each other out on the field, my goodness.

That means you're relaxed, you're confident, and.

You can enjoy communicating your interaction.

Yes.

You can think two and three steps ahead before the play happens, you know.

But Manny San Gain was the guy who talked all the time.

Did he?

And the other part is that don't have him to eat too much before the game.

Oh.

Because, you know, you want to get out of there real quick.

You want to wear a nose guard or something.

And it's a hot day too.

And then now the umpire, no, the umpire's getting sick and the umpire is, you know, like this dizzy, like, you know, I don't know if I can last two and a half hours out.

Here.

But he does it on purpose, you know, eat some old chicken or old steak.

I knew a kid who, who used to wrestle for our school and every, before every match he would eat sardines.

Oh, it was the sardines and mustard sauce, you know, and he's pounding sardines and mustard sauce.

And then you go out there, you.

Know, or garlic right in the umpire's face.

No.

So Yeah.

I mean, those are the things I look for when I'm looking for a catcher.

Somebody who can, again, going back to what we said the other week.

Inspire.

Yeah.

Power is no match for inspiration.

If you're the kind of guy who can work hard and inspire your teammates to want to come around you and.

And listen to what you have to say, then you're going to be a good catcher.

And the way that you do that is by communication.

Like you're just talking about with.

With Manny Sanguin.

You can't be quiet back there.

You.

Because you.

You see the whole field.

And so, you know, you're responsible for a lot of times for calling different steel coverages or calling bunk coverages.

Something I didn't realize until I got older was you're responsible for lining up cutoff throws coming to home plate.

That was something I didn't learn.

I didn't stop throwing the ball around, man.

Oh, my gosh.

Especially.

Especially at the younger level.

Thank you.

But, yeah, that's something I didn't learn until high school is.

Is lining up throws from right field through first base to home or from left field through third base to home.

You can't be quiet out there because those guys can't see what's going on behind them, and they're in the middle of a play.

They need you to help direct them and guide them.

But the trust that it instills in a pitcher, he's not reluctant to throw a breaking ball.

When a man on third base, trust is going to keep the ball out in front.

Yeah.

And the other one, nobody's on base.

You don't see many of these.

Many catchers do that, but they're.

They're running from home plate and backing up first base.

Yes.

And I say, oh, yeah, that's the guy I want.

Yes.

Because he's showing everybody else you need.

To hustle the hustle.

There's all the time you need to hustle on the field.

That was one thing I saw in a.

Thing I watched about Carlton Fisk, was that there was no excuse not to hustle.

And.

And if you didn't hustle, he was in your face.

I mean, there's the, there's the, The.

The famous interaction that he had with Deion Sanders.

You know, Dion was, you know.

Yeah.

And then he was.

He was just not hustling.

He'd hit a pop up and he just wouldn't hustle.

Yeah.

And, you know, Fisk is like, in his face going, there's a right and a wrong way to play.

This game and you're playing it wrong.

Yeah.

And kind of saw himself as the, the defender of classic baseball.

Yeah.

You know, and.

But a guy who was going to go out there and give it 110.

But he's a big guy.

I think he was like six, three.

Six, three.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, you know, he was a.

He was a.

An imposing figure, but at the same time like that, he did not make exceptions.

Like, you play hard.

That's the thing.

And that's kind of the same thing.

I grew up in my, you know, dad would.

Would have a lot of.

You could have grace for a lot of things.

You tried hard, you made mistakes.

We'll talk about it.

We'll work on it.

But if you're not hustling, there is no excuse for that.

But with the, With Johnny, Johnny benches say, he may not just get in your face, but he would say quietly, we don't do that around here.

And when I had come from the Giants to the Reds, you know, with the Giants, it was okay, you take your, your, Your hat and put it in your pocket.

I said, no, we don't do it around here.

Okay.

But they let you know right away.

So you have leaders out there on the field so that once you don't do what they want you to do or should be doing, they'll let you know, but in a quiet, quiet way.

Like in Pete's case, he.

Rose is there.

Hey, man, you.

You got.

You got to hustle.

Got to get to the bag.

You know, we need.

You need that run.

We need you to be on base.

You know, Come on.

It's, it's.

It's only.

You're young, you know, you can tribute and play every day.

Let's go.

Tell me about a little bit.

About what it.

You play with some amazing catchers.

So what does having a really great catcher on your team, how does that make your job easier.

Easier in as a left fielder?

Well, number it makes it easier as a team because you want to be strong up the middle.

You know that you're behind the plate, short second center field.

And that's why Bob Howam had made that trade with the astros back in 72 when he got Joe Morgan here.

Because we're going from grass, from grass to astroturf.

We needed more faster guys up the middle.

But you don't.

Sometimes you don't really notice how.

You didn't notice how good Johnny was, because it wasn't that he would flamboyant or anything, but he just got the job done right.

But he cut down the running game so that you knowing that if a guy gets a base hit now he's going from first, first to maybe third.

But you have a chance to throw him out, but he's not going to get a long lead, a big lead at first base.

So, so having a guy like Johnny behind the plate, it changes the game and it somewhat deterred the opposition taking that extra base or trying to steal or taking a bigger lead off and the command that he has behind the plate.

Cause he knowing that okay, if it's Don Gullett out there, he's gonna call for his best pitch in certain situations.

So I knowing that Gullett going to throwing a fastball so the guy's not going to get me as quick as with the bat.

So I'm going to play more left center compared to down the line.

So it changes the way you play the defense.

And we had great communication with Griffey, Geronimo and myself because I tell Chief, you got everything.

I got the foul line, you got everything else right there.

So we had that.

But Chief said, you know, I would have had eight more years if I didn't have to cover George Foster's territory.

No, but the dude defense would line up perfectly.

But it's according because we're knowing that Johnny's going to call a certain pitch.

They're not going to try to fool somebody, throw a change up and you, you playing right towards right field.

So.

But he had great command and, and the trust that he had and it's just the, the impact that he had on, on the behind the plate that really changed the attitude.

Everybody and like I say, we're in the right place at the right time.

Pete doesn't have to play on the line.

He played more towards shortstop in the Astro Davies playing up the middle.

So it, it, it improves everything.

So, so let me ask you this.

When you're talking about having that communication with the catcher all the way from the outfield, how good of an idea did you have of what pitch was coming?

Were you, were you getting some sort of sign or you were learning the tendencies?

Now I would, we would move with the center fielder because the center feeler can see.

Okay.

Yeah.

Where he's.

Or if he's sitting outside, if it's sitting inside.

Okay.

So.

And especially we say with two strikes we always going to move towards right or the opposite field.

And but watching Geronimo watch him move because he's watching, seeing what Johnny's setting up.

And then of course you now you're watching the shortstop.

But everybody's going to move according to what pitch is going to be thrown.

So that, that.

And he was consistent in doing that.

And so Elliot was.

It was like a dance or choreography because everybody moved in the same rhythm the same time.

There's nobody.

I'm not playing down the line when I should be playing left center, things as such.

But I say Geronimo would I read everything off of him and he's reading it off Johnny.

So then what's the difference between playing with Johnny behind the plate and then playing with somebody like Gary Carter behind the plate?

It's about the same because both of those guys knew the game, they knew how to call the game and they're going to say in a sense, Gary, he will get in your face and let you know that hey, you, you can't be playing over it.

Or you actually go out and wave you over.

What do you really.

Yeah, wave you over.

I mean you still you standing there and they said, oh, get your attention.

Let's go, let's go.

We're gonna.

And then sometime messes up the batter because he say, okay, I want you to play more right center.

So the guy think he's going to throw him away, but he's going to bust him inside.

Yeah.

So.

But he took command and letting it like Ethan was saying that, letting them know what, okay, we're going to.

What's the play?

It's going to be the will play or who's cut off.

I think that you need somebody who's going to be able to let the infielders know what they should be doing.

And like the first basin, he may, he may give us signs and we're going to try to pick him off because he's getting a big lead and Johnny did that a lot trying to Gary Carter the same way.

Pick him off Jaeger the same way.

Those guys had strong arms.

A guy at second base, you know, taking a lead too long, four of a lead.

He tried to pick that guy off.

But they already, they have a sign because those guys are always doing something.

It's non stop.

That's cool.

What are you guys from a, from a catcher's perspective or from a coach's perspective, what are some of the specific things that you do to develop a catcher?

So like how do you, how do you work with a catcher to get him to learn to call a game properly?

Trial and error.

Trial and error, man.

And let them fail, you know.

And I think in this, in this era too many people trying to control I think that coming up, I think everybody caught, I even caught before.

But it allows you to learn the game.

And so from me from high school to semi pro baseball to, to coaching and being with coaches that understand the game make made it easy for me to teach the game or us teach the game to our players.

I caught one, I caught one pitch.

The guy hit me in the back of the head with the bat because I was too close to the place.

Time out, I got too close.

I'm trying to reach to catch the ball and then the guy's swinging at it.

The batter hit me in the back of the head.

So that right away, hey, you should be out in left field.

I think also if you can get access to guys who were catchers at higher levels.

I know you've talked a lot about learning from coach Peregrine who was a catcher at a higher level.

Yeah.

And that's something that we've, we've talked on.

I think probably in every episode is finding a guy who's been there, done that.

Um, and coach Billy Perrigan, he, he caught in the minor leagues.

I don't know that he ever.

Billy's Braves, most, mostly, yeah, Braves.

I don't know that he ever made it to the majors, but he, he had that old school mentality, that hard work.

I mean one of the hardest working humans I've ever met in my life.

But the, just the insight that he would bring.

Like we talked before the show about learning how to read pop ups as a catcher.

Turning your back to the infield so the ball comes into you.

I didn't know, I had never heard that until he taught me that in high school.

So being able to seek out a guy who's been there, done that.

Just so many little nuggets that are second nature to those guys that us younger guys who, you know, you have to learn it somewhere.

So just spending time with them, you can, you can absorb so much.

I think also what's missing is the patience to be able to teach catching and the baseball IQ that it takes to understand catching, understanding what's going on out in the field and things like that.

Some kids might already come with the knowledge, some kids might not.

So those kids that doesn't have knowledge or a tough grid or whatever.

Or.

To understand command, you really got to teach them the game per say, how to read pictures or how to drop and block and you know, how to command is so much involved with catching that you've got to take the time to develop these type players, man.

And that's what's missing.

I see it in the, the academy a lot of.

And I just sit back and they don't spend enough time with teaching the game, teaching the baseball IQ of baseball.

Man, you know, having different stations to work with.

Yes.

They don't realize the importance of working with.

But for me as a coach, my mission is to help these guys to develop.

And so we're talking about calling the game itself.

You gotta, once again, you gotta read the situation.

So a guy's throwing a fastball and the batter's late on it, you don't want to throw him a change up, right.

So now you speed up his bat.

But if a guy's pulling that fastball, then now you have a chance.

Yes, but it just not reading in that instance.

But I say help them to develop as a catcher.

And you're seeing that.

Okay, these are like Greg's dad was saying that if you want to be a catcher, this is what these are the responsibilities.

Not just get behind the plate.

And I call it, don't be behind the plate.

You should be catching, but you're fetching.

I had taken one of my catchers out of the game and because he hadn't caught a ball and so now the pitcher's not confident in throwing anything up there.

And so I took him out and, and, and the mom was saying, what are you doing?

I said, do you see what I see?

So it's like I didn't want to embarrass the kid, you know, put him in a situation he's going to be successful in, but getting someone back there that's able to catch the ball.

But I want to go back to what you were saying Rick, about a lot of coaches not having patience with the catchers.

And I've got a little bit of personal testimony with that and that I caught man, pretty much from the first year of kid pitch up until high school.

Tried out my freshman year and for whatever reason we had an abundance of catchers, which is rare, but in our class we had man, probably six or seven.

We had a lot of catchers and they were looking for who was most ready at the time.

And I was not, I was still on the heavier side of.

I wasn't very mobile, had a good arm, decent, decent back.

I, I just wasn't mobile.

And I, and I know that.

So I, I was a, I was a PO that year and then I started hitting.

They let me hit.

Then I was a podh, which made me just useless in the field with a, with a glove.

So Then.

But I had a coach tell me, you know, you're not a catcher anymore.

And so in my head, my identity switched.

I was like, oh, I guess I'm not a catcher anymore.

Well, the next summer, I'm thinking, oh, well, I'm.

You know, I'm not going to have a shot to play catcher at school, so I might as well just be done with that.

So I went to go play third base, and I was not the best third baseman because I hadn't had the experience, but I was a decent pitcher because I had a good arm.

And then I came back to school and played third base my sophomore year because I knew I wasn't going to have a shot at catcher.

And we had.

We were starting to call up freshmen to catch jv because then we were.

We were short on catchers.

So then the next year, I go out and I'm like, I'm done catching.

This is summer.

And I'm like, it's not going to happen.

Whatever.

I.

I may have.

I.

I put my gear up in the garage.

I wasn't bringing it with me to games, that kind of thing.

But not ebay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so.

But then I had a dad come to me.

He was like.

Because we were struggling at catcher on that summer team, and he was like, please get behind that plate.

I know it's been a while, but.

But can you help us out?

I was like, okay, fine.

And we needed the depth.

So I went into the catch, and I went to go drop and block for the first time.

It was way easier.

It was because I was 25 pounds lighter.

And so.

So it was just a.

It was a matter of time for me to hit that kind of growth spurt in high school.

And then catching was a lot easier.

Yeah, it was.

And it became fun again.

But then going back to school, I knew they weren't gonna.

They had told me I wasn't a catcher.

So I.

I think I.

By that time, I had gotten rid of the gear.

And then they said, hey, Dungan, you interested in catching again?

And I was like, what?

And then.

And then Covid happened, and the rest is history.

But I want to just.

I was passionate at catching, and I had some coaches turn me away from it.

Yeah.

And I wish I had kept that in the back pocket and continued to work on it, because looking back, that's where I belonged.

And baseball became less fun when I quit catching.

So I just want to encourage players and parents of players.

Don't let a coach discourage you, discourage it, or define you as A player, if you're passionate about something, continue to work on it.

And even if it's not the current opportunity, keep it in the back pocket in case it comes up later, because more often than not it will keep working on it.

I could have brought that out later in my career had I continued to work on it.

Because it's so easy for kids to think, think that what's going on right now is permanent.

Right?

Yes.

You know, as a parent, you guys know this.

As a parent, you find yourself constantly telling your child, look, just this is temporary.

You'll grow, you'll change.

You get this is, this, is this much of your life right here going on right now.

So just hang in there.

Just, you know, realize it's temporary.

And that's, that's the thing.

But I want to.

Going back to, going back to something that Rick had said earlier that I think plays into what you're, you're talking about.

Okay, I have this, I have a theory and I'll try not to soapbox too much on this.

But the reason why we don't have patience enough to develop catchers is mostly because we don't play baseball in leagues, we play in tournaments.

Yes.

And baseball is not meant to be a tournament only sport.

It's just not.

If you, if everything you play is a tournament, then every game is the playoffs.

Right?

And your A guys have to be on the field all the time.

You can't platoon, you can't take time.

You can't learn by trial and error.

You can't allow them to fail because if they do, then you lose, then you didn't win, then you go.

Everything is pressure cooker, all the dumb time.

And when you get to that point, it takes all the fun out of baseball and nobody gets what they need.

There's no freedom to mess up.

Right?

So this is why when I started mdni, I did a lot of round robins.

Yeah, yeah, I'll call up.

Hey, three or four.

Just a practice game to get guys reps, put them in different positions, let them fail.

So what, man?

Go.

That's how you're going to learn the game.

Cause we can't count on kids today going outside and playing baseball on their own.

On their own.

We can't count on that.

So you gotta spend a lot of time developing players.

And then I'm getting off a little bit, but through tryouts, man, they almost gotta do a baseball IQ test or someone needs to, to find out what kids do or what they know and what they don't know.

And it's okay if they don't know a lot of things.

That's why you as a coach, you know, supposed to be developing those minds.

That's your job, Develop those minds, develop the passion.

And as a coach, the way I'm talking now, I played the game like this very enthusiastic guy as a leader on our team, the shortest on the team.

But they, but they, you know, trusted me to be one of those leaders because I talked a lot, you know.

But I like, I like what you've, you've mentioned this, I don't know, a dozen times in, probably every episode, but you're tracking the mistakes to, in order to fix them, not.

Not to hold it against them and say, hey, look how many times you messed up.

It's like, hey, this, this seems to be an issue.

How can we fix it?

Yes.

And that is so much more encouraging to a player than just beating them over the head with it.

Yes.

You know why?

Because that's on us.

Exactly.

That's what the parent paid for.

Help develop you, help you develop those mistakes, give you the tools to go home, work with it, come back like, oh, I can tell you've been working on your game, man.

So you gotta inspire.

You gotta coach kids up, man, and stop beating them over the head.

Ethan is more than my podcast partner.

He's my son.

And like every baseball parent, my first priority was his development as a player.

Every year, we'd start out with a new coach and a new team, making new promises, only to end up playing the same old tournaments with little to no practice in between.

You know what I'm talking about.

That's why I'm so thankful that we found MDNI Academy.

I first met Coach Rick over a decade ago when Ethan was just a kid.

And I'll never forget the relief I felt watching his first lesson.

I knew right then that no matter what team he played for, my son would have amazing, consistent instruction from someone who cared.

Rick has trained baseball and softball players at the select, traveling, and even college levels.

So I knew that Ethan could continue his excellence through training approach.

For his whole baseball career.

He learned hitting, pitching, catching, fielding, and more all in one place.

Most of all, he learned to love the greatest game in the world and how to play it with character and integrity.

MDNI is a first class facility with plenty of tunnels for hitting and pitching instruction that open up into large areas for teaching fielding, base running, speed and agility.

They even have a weight room for strength training.

So if you're wearing yourself out running all over town, to multiple teachers or worse.

You're counting on that new select coach to actually develop your child.

You need to check out MD and iAcademy today.

Go to mdaiacademy.com and contact Coach Rick to learn how you can get all the baseball instruction you need from someone who cares about your favorite player as much as you do at MDNI Academy.

So, yeah, you're exactly right.

And this is why.

Okay, so I have.

I have a couple encouragements for those who are listening.

Number one, if you're a coach, please, I mean, for the love of God, please play some other games other than.

Tournaments and practice more than once a week.

Yeah.

But.

Yeah, take that time, because otherwise what's happens is you're taking a kid who's in their.

Their adolescence and you're putting them in an adult situation, which is you either produce or you're done right now.

Adults we've talked about, George, that wasn't easy for you in, in.

Whether you were in.

In Cincinnati or you're in New York or wherever.

It's hard on adults when it's like, producer, you're done.

Think about it on kids, right?

They're still growing, they're still learning.

There's so many things they don't understand yet.

Labeled.

Yeah.

And you sit there and go, all right, well, parents don't talk to me about playing time.

You can't either have.

Right.

They'll either have the numbers or they won't.

You know, I'm gonna put the best people on the field.

That's why we need to have coaches sessions, you know, talk to them about their responsibility.

But as a coach, though, I.

I have my team practice at least two times a week.

Same one time maybe as a team, then the others individual.

So I have a kid, two kids.

Like the catchers.

Okay.

You gotta come one to three.

We got to work on defense or the shortstop and second baseman.

We'll work on turn a double play.

Right.

So being able to get that, get all that in and then you have the team to come out to do it.

So we're going to do situational play.

No one telling the catcher.

Okay.

How many hours, knowing the situation at that time.

But you got to be able to isolate it, have practices so they can work on it.

Yes.

So that now they're being able to carry it over into the game.

If they don't know how to do it, then in the game.

Yeah, they're going to make more mistakes than they should.

Yeah.

And so my second encouragement is to parents and parents, this is the Thing, you can't change what baseball has become.

As much as we would all love to go back to playing leagues where you played the same team several times in a season and you have a nice longer season and you have time to develop kids, baseball isn't that anymore.

Baseball is a pressure cooker.

That's one tournament after another.

And if that's going to be your child's playing experience, get a private teacher, please.

When, where I grew up in, in, in Tip City, Ohio, in, in, in.

In the Moonies with.

It was a small town.

We didn't, There wasn't a lot of.

We played Little league, man.

There wasn't.

Nobody had a private teacher.

Nobody had.

It just wasn't what it was in the 80s.

But I cannot imagine having parented a ballplayer without a private teacher because there's no way.

There's no way.

Even the best coach with the most well meaning philosophy and the best work ethic and there are a lot of great youth coaches out there.

There really are.

They can only do so much.

So if your child is serious and passionate about being a baseball player, get a private teacher, get some private work, specialized.

It is worth the money.

I know that sometimes you'll be like.

Good investment, great investment.

We got to find this, we got to find, you know, we got to find some money for this or that.

Man, I'm telling you, I would much rather have paid for Ethan to take private baseball lessons than I would to have gone on expensive vacations or anything else because it was better for him in the long run.

He learned skills and character traits that he would not have learned any other way from great guys like Rick.

And I appreciate that opportunity.

And so I'm saying, if you're a parent, please.

Well, and I know for me it made it more fun because not only is Rick just a fun guy to be around, but I had somebody dedicated to my success rather than somebody who's in charge of a bunch of kids doing the best they can.

I had somebody dedicated to me and invested in whether or not I succeed or fail.

And so having that support for me, regardless of what happened in any tournament or what any coach said, I knew I could always come back to Rick.

And he was there for me and I appreciated that.

Made it way more fun.

I looked forward to going to go see Rick way more than I ever did going to play a game or a practice.

That's great.

Appreciate it.

Absolutely.

You have to give yourself credit too for seeking out somebody that knowing.

Did you trust what they had to say?

To trust your kid with that certain individual and being able to specialize.

And I just know Rick is probably the same way as I am.

But when a kid comes in to work with me, they got, they have to equal my effort.

You know, I don't, I don't want to have to give more effort than the kid that's saying that they don't really want it as much.

But I tell some, tell the kid I said, you got to equal my effort here.

Thank you.

You know, you can't go, just go going through the motions because we're here to help you to get better.

You got to want to get better.

Thank you.

Level swing, let it travel.

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So I want to, I want to kind of move on to our then and now segment here.

Well, let's talk what catching was like when you played and how it's different now.

And Ethan, I'm going to have you jump off here because you, you have a good insight as to like current techniques and how that's different.

So this, this is interesting.

You see in the ML, in the MLB now we're seeing the one knee a lot and it's, it's really taken over.

Yeah.

And that was something, you know, obviously Tony, Tony Pena was doing that and then Manny Sanguin Rick, I'm so glad you brought that up because I'd never heard of him, but he was a pioneer to that.

Yeah, they both were.

So it was really just those two guys.

And then you had Brian Pena, who was not related to Tony, same last name, but also happened to have that unique kind of leg out catching style, which is, I just think that's ironic.

But when I was catching, we didn't really have private catching instructors yet.

It wasn't as popular.

You would have a hitting guy and you might have a pitching guy, but fielding wasn't, wasn't quite as prominent at that point.

And so I started, you know, with that kind of real narrow stance, just arm out kind of like that.

And now it's becoming a lot more fluid.

So I want to give a shout out to my guy, Tyler Stack at, at Xavier University.

He, I got to have him come in and work on his glove and pick his brain.

He's only a couple years younger than I am, maybe one or two.

And so I was able to ask him, you know, how did you learn this, this style?

And he said, man, I just watched, I watched MLB catchers, I watched spring training drills and I just tried to copy it as much as possible.

And he actually was able to talk to his high school coach and kind of change some of the procedures there.

He's like, because coach, I'm seeing this at the MLB level.

So that was really cool for me to see a guy who went out and found the technique rather than waited for somebody to come teach it to him.

But catching is very, very different now.

You know, it's, you're not just holding a target out there.

There's a lot more emphasis on framing and stealing runs, which I think is funny because we're starting to get more robotic with balls and strikes.

Yeah.

Yet we're, yet we're emphasizing framing more than now than ever.

And I think that's a really good thing.

So I.

It definitely seems to be a position that requires more fluid athleticism now than it, than it did at the time.

And also seeing more emphasis on, on offense from the catchers.

You know, everything's about analytics and they want, they want the big bat back there.

And so sometimes now you're seeing guys who are good hitters and not great catchers and they're trying to turn them into good catchers because they're good hitters and they want to try to keep that bat in the lineup.

So I know a guy like Austin Wells, he was not a good catcher coming out of Arizona and Yankees just put out a good special on him and his journey.

And he had to work really, really hard to be able to hold his own back there.

I know Tyler Stevenson's gone through some of the same stuff.

Guys with great bats, even Gary Sanchez, guys with great bats, and they're trying to develop the catching so that they can be a valued defensively as well.

So just some, just some different things that, that I'm seeing.

George, how, how would you say, like go back to some of the guys we've talked about that you played with versus maybe some of the guys you scouted when you were scouting for the Reds.

How have you seen that position change drastically?

The Posey rule Now, you know, you have to have a lane before, you know, you may make sure your life insurance is paid up when you go into going to go at home plate.

But the thing is, is that nowadays, you know, I think, I know it's to prevent injuries, but it's taking a little bit fun out of the game because you're not able to go and, and collide with the catcher.

And if you don't, the catcher doesn't give you a lane, then now you're safe.

So sometimes we get to that ridiculous side of it and it's just that the catchers, they don't have as much chance to get the guy out because of that lane, if you're not in that particular lane.

And then, yeah, the framing, the catchers, yeah, they're stealing more strikes.

They're not really strikes, but they're.

They have the quickness of the hand that the umpire doesn't really see.

So it's stealing more strikes for the pitcher.

So that's a big change in itself.

But I say you're scoring, scoring like Willie Mays or Bonds, and those guys, you know, they live to go and knock a catcher down.

And that's why the Dodgers always went to get guys.

Sosha Jaeger, guys who gonna ready to bash Gary Carter?

No, John Stearns, he played football and he, him and Dave Parker had a collision at the plate.

And you look at, you thought that Dave Parker would get the best of it, but I think he got his cheek smashed in by John Stearns.

And John Stearns jumped up, you know, a little bit dazed and like, who's next?

So, but this guy, he was a linebacker.

I forget which, which football team he played with, but this guy was crazy back there.

So.

So sometimes we talk about you need to have a high iq, maybe not you don't want to have a high iq, you're like, you're crazy.

Iq, you're crazy.

Come on, who's next up there?

But to say that the lane, having the lane because of Posey rule, the framing is much different now than when we played.

And so, But I don't, you know, like Ethan was saying, they looking more for offense than just defense before.

Like Jerry Grody more for, for defense because they want to make sure that he control what the pitcher's throwing and being able to eliminate a lot of pass ball while pitches.

And I see guys, well, Sanchez, I know he had cause he, I guess he had to led the world and wild pitches or pass balls.

So they moved him to another position.

But you got to want it.

You got to.

Well, you got to be hard nose back there being able to work at it.

And I, I find that Tyler Stevenson, I, I think he probably from swinging the bat oblique problem.

But you got to be flexible.

Yeah.

Back there and.

But you got maybe take yoga or whatever to be loose back there because it's not an easy position to play.

Well, I, I can remember even just in, you know, as a kid in the 80s playing Little League, they, they told us straight up, okay, so if the guy's coming in, this is how you block the plate.

Like, I mean, this was, that was a skill be ready for that kind of thing.

And that was the toughness.

I think the other thing about catchers is you've got to eat, sleep and breathe it.

You got to love it.

Yeah, you got to love it.

Like, I could not wait to get the gear on and it, it saddened me to take it off.

If you got a kid who's catching and he's like, I got to put the gear on.

Yeah, put him somewhere else.

You got to have the kid that eats dirt for breakfast and cannot wait to get the helmet on.

That's that, that's the catcher that you're looking for.

And also you got to be able to take some foul tips off the cup.

Oh, there you go.

There you go.

That's true.

I think Johnny Bench broke about seven cups.

Well, I remember I saw an interview with.

It was a kind of a press roll during the 77 year.

It's on YouTube.

And they interviewed all, all the different guys or several of them anyway.

And, and Johnny was talking about how, you know, it was kind of disappointing, like you were having the year of your life, but yet the team was kind of struggling with the pitching and the whatever and, and he was, he was admitting to the person it was interviewing.

He's like, yeah, I probably get a little too caught up in the defense.

I think about a lot about the defense and, and whatever.

And he said, nye, yeah, I got to remember that I, you know, I had.

There's an offensive side to this too.

And I got to, I got to really pick up my production there.

But yeah, it's true.

Like when you're a catcher, you, defense is everything.

But that's the.

Oh, go ahead.

No, I was going to say they have.

It was two dimensional there because they wanted you for offense and also defense and then they had a timeframe that I just want you to just be one dimensional.

Just focus on the catching, whatever is a surplus or bonus if you are to swing the bat.

But nowadays back to.

I don't care just being able to stop the ball, but being able to swing the bat.

We need some offense from behind the plate.

Yeah.

And that was the interesting thing about Devin Mazzarocco later in his career when, when he went to the Mets in 2019, I think it was, he was catching guys like deGrom and Zach Wheeler and Noah Syndergaard.

I mean, just a really great.

The war.

Yeah, a really great rotation there.

Um, and in, you know, he got traded mid season and, and a couple weeks in deGrom's like, no, this is my guy.

Like, I want Devin Mezorocco to be my catcher.

And so he had said heading in to hold on.

Night 2019 was his last year.

He was traded before that.

Anyway, he had said he was in the game mentally, but his body just couldn't hold up.

Yeah, but, but he still loved the strategy.

He loved handling, handling the pitchers.

He really loved that.

But like you were saying, you know, his body just couldn't hold up to it.

So you do have to eat, sleep and breathe it like that.

And it's interesting you're saying about Johnny Bench getting caught up in the defense, because if you have a catcher that's not caught up in the defense, then you got other problems.

Yeah, I mean, you're going to let in more runs than you drive in, so you're defeating the purpose.

But back to when I talk about Ted Simmons, he.

He still did a good enough job behind the plate to keep guys from scoring.

And then of course he's going to provide a lot of offense, being a switch hitter and of course being in the hall of Fame.

But this guy, they didn't give him much credit, but he, he worked at it.

Severely underrated.

Yeah.

There's another guy that I coached against and my son Played against him, played with them before.

Is Luke Maley.

Oh yeah, Luke hit man.

Been knowing Luke since he was about 11 years old.

And our, our team and kids played against each other for years from 11 to 18.

And along with Tucker Barnhart, we all ran the same travel baseball circles.

And Luke hit man.

He can really hit.

And then when he went to Kentucky hit and I don't know when he got to the major leagues.

I think a lot of things change.

You know, he has.

I don't know if he had it before, but he got away with it.

But he has a hitch in his swing.

And I remember when he was with Toronto.

Yes, it was within a day's time.

I was scheduled because I was in.

He was in Dunedin and I was in St.

Pete.

We're supposed to meet that day, just talk about it, but we never get a chance to talk about it.

But just having a hitch in that swing, it makes a big difference.

He's going to be lazy on that fastball.

He's a big guy.

He's a big kid as he is about six agreement.

But you know, he's a basketball player.

Yeah.

So is Carlton Fisk.

Yes, this.

Yeah, he has a basketball player.

We used to play again against Luke in tournaments all the time.

He was a big kid.

I think it was interesting.

The other thing I, I read about Carlton Fisk is he considered himself to be part of the pitching staff.

Like he was.

Yeah, he wasn't.

In addition to.

He was part of the pitching staff.

Like you're right, you're not doing this without me.

Like this is.

We're a member of that.

And I thought that was kind of.

That makes sense though.

Yes.

That's great mindset.

Well, you got, you got a couple of guys.

I think Benji Molina was.

Was he James Shields dedicated catcher or David Price's dedicated Price?

Yeah, yeah.

Down with, down with the Rays.

Yeah.

But the race.

And so you had a couple of guys that were, you know, glued to a specific pitcher and you know, they, they could carve out a little career just by being, being guys with that.

That's what Tim McCarver with Steve Carlton.

Yeah.

See, Carlton wanted McCarver.

McCarver did something that, that really.

It was psychological.

So he got admit that when the ball hits it, it really popped.

And so Carlton, it made it sound like it's throwing hard.

You know, I like to.

I wanted someone to make the catcher make the mitt pop.

And then of course McCarver said, you know, Steve, you should get rid of that curveball and Go to the slider.

And he went from being 15 and 14 to 26 and nine.

Yeah.

So that slider and that slider, I don't know what, I forget what year, but from that time frame he started accumulating hall of Fame numbers.

Yeah.

And slider's hard to hit if you aren't well from a lefty.

Yeah.

Lefty boys.

Because you see it coming in, you think it's going to be there by the time it seemed like it reacted.

Repel that wood.

But that, that was the pitch that got him to the hall of Fame, that slider.

Yeah, I thought about this.

Javi Lopez.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

With the Braves.

Yes, yes.

He had that staff bad of Maddox and all of those guys.

Javi Lopez, that's a, that's a handful, right.

That's a big responsibility right there.

But you have the staff.

You didn't think about who was catching.

No, that's true.

And he had some good, good offensive numbers.

Yes, he did.

So gotta remember.

Yeah.

Javi Lopez.

Yeah, he had that one good year.

That good year.

Then I think it hurt his knee.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Interesting subject to talk about.

We'll have, we'll do, we'll come back to catching in the fall.

That'll be, this will be another fun discussion.

Well, I hope you've enjoyed our talk about catching today and some of the remembrances and some of the, the, the insights that the guys have shared and if you do, you know, give us a, like, give us a, give us a good rating somewhere where you listen to the podcast and leave us a comment, let us know, you know, if you like in the show or if you have questions, something you want us to kick around, talk about on the table, we're happy to do that.

But until we get together next time, have a great week and we'll see you real soon.

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