1 00:00:05,467 --> 00:00:09,187 Well, hello and welcome to the eCommerce Podcast with 2 00:00:09,187 --> 00:00:10,917 me, your host, Matt Edmundson. 3 00:00:11,427 --> 00:00:16,527 The eCommerce Podcast is all about helping you deliver eCommerce wow. 4 00:00:16,717 --> 00:00:20,657 And to help us do just that, today we are chatting with 5 00:00:20,707 --> 00:00:26,287 Shirish Nadkarni about unlocking marketplace success and overcoming. 6 00:00:27,282 --> 00:00:27,452 Modern. 7 00:00:27,452 --> 00:00:28,002 Monopolist. 8 00:00:28,142 --> 00:00:29,172 Oh, yes we are. 9 00:00:29,202 --> 00:00:35,202 But before we dive into that conversation, let me, uh, just remind you, dear 10 00:00:35,232 --> 00:00:38,582 listener, if you haven't done so already, head over to the website eCommercePodcast. 11 00:00:39,192 --> 00:00:42,882 net, sign up to the newsletter, and we will send you the notes and the links from 12 00:00:42,902 --> 00:00:44,332 our conversation street to your inbox. 13 00:00:44,712 --> 00:00:45,852 They come through automatically. 14 00:00:45,852 --> 00:00:46,512 It's awesome. 15 00:00:46,512 --> 00:00:47,832 So sign up for that. 16 00:00:48,222 --> 00:00:52,752 And also, let me do a big shout out to the e-commerce cohort. 17 00:00:53,082 --> 00:00:55,032 Who brings you succinctly? 18 00:00:55,302 --> 00:00:56,532 The e-Commerce podcast? 19 00:00:56,562 --> 00:00:56,922 Oh, yes. 20 00:00:56,922 --> 00:01:00,882 E-Commerce cohort is our membership group, our private members group, 21 00:01:01,242 --> 00:01:04,272 uh, which you can join every month. 22 00:01:04,272 --> 00:01:06,462 We deliver expert workshops. 23 00:01:06,462 --> 00:01:09,942 We get usually ex guests from the podcast actually delivering workshops. 24 00:01:10,387 --> 00:01:11,247 They're awesome. 25 00:01:11,547 --> 00:01:15,067 Uh, so it just helps you learn and grow in eCommerce, plus one of the 26 00:01:15,067 --> 00:01:19,297 other added benefits, apart from the myriad of others, is you get to watch 27 00:01:19,307 --> 00:01:23,387 the live recording of this podcast. 28 00:01:23,617 --> 00:01:27,797 So we live record the podcast, you get to watch it, you can come 29 00:01:27,797 --> 00:01:31,767 join in, you can answer, ask your questions to our guests, and I'm 30 00:01:31,767 --> 00:01:33,347 sure they would love to answer them. 31 00:01:33,447 --> 00:01:35,647 So, uh, yes, if you haven't done so already. 32 00:01:35,917 --> 00:01:36,827 Come join us in Cohort. 33 00:01:36,827 --> 00:01:38,527 It'd be great to see you in there. 34 00:01:38,537 --> 00:01:41,207 More information is available at ecommercecohort. 35 00:01:43,337 --> 00:01:43,757 com. 36 00:01:44,177 --> 00:01:45,787 Membership prices start from just 14. 37 00:01:45,787 --> 00:01:48,007 99, so it's not expensive. 38 00:01:48,047 --> 00:01:48,717 Come and join us. 39 00:01:49,732 --> 00:01:54,832 Now, oh yes, perfect timing on the music, it's almost like I'm a professional, 40 00:01:54,832 --> 00:01:58,792 ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, steady on Matt, let's not get ahead of ourselves. 41 00:01:59,082 --> 00:02:04,562 Now let's meet Shirish Nadkarni, a serial entrepreneur with the Midas touch for 42 00:02:04,562 --> 00:02:06,822 creating businesses that reach millions. 43 00:02:07,192 --> 00:02:09,972 Not only did he co found Live Mockup. 44 00:02:10,472 --> 00:02:15,612 The language learning giant and he also laid the groundwork 45 00:02:15,612 --> 00:02:17,632 for BlackBerry internet email. 46 00:02:17,642 --> 00:02:20,512 We are going back a little bit there Shirish, I'm not gonna lie. 47 00:02:21,392 --> 00:02:27,362 He also shares his wisdom as an author, his books from Startup to Exit and his 48 00:02:27,362 --> 00:02:32,682 recent masterpiece, Winner Takes All, case studies in how online marketplaces 49 00:02:32,722 --> 00:02:38,762 are creating modern monopolies are must reads in the business well 50 00:02:38,762 --> 00:02:40,582 Shirish good to have you on the show. 51 00:02:40,582 --> 00:02:44,057 Thank you for joining us all the way from Seattle, Washington. 52 00:02:44,247 --> 00:02:45,717 How are we doing today? 53 00:02:46,917 --> 00:02:47,697 Thank you, Matt. 54 00:02:47,757 --> 00:02:48,677 Great to be with you. 55 00:02:48,677 --> 00:02:49,387 I'm doing well. 56 00:02:49,977 --> 00:02:50,527 Good, man. 57 00:02:50,907 --> 00:02:51,217 Good. 58 00:02:51,277 --> 00:02:55,947 So, for those that might not know, and I dare say, actually, 59 00:02:55,947 --> 00:03:00,727 there's going to be quite a few that don't know, um, just explain. 60 00:03:01,477 --> 00:03:07,627 What BlackBerry internet email is because I know right going back a few years But 61 00:03:07,627 --> 00:03:11,397 I it's that bizarre point of life where there are going to be people listening 62 00:03:11,397 --> 00:03:14,727 to the show that actually have no idea what I'm Talking about so just explain 63 00:03:14,727 --> 00:03:16,337 that and let's jump into the conversation 64 00:03:17,817 --> 00:03:18,537 Right, right. 65 00:03:18,537 --> 00:03:18,837 Yeah. 66 00:03:18,837 --> 00:03:24,437 So, um, uh, Blackberry, first of all, was a very popular. 67 00:03:25,162 --> 00:03:30,032 BlackBerry mobile device that lets you access your email and calendar. 68 00:03:30,072 --> 00:03:36,792 It had a unique keyboard on the device, so you're not typing on a piece of glass. 69 00:03:37,382 --> 00:03:45,262 And it was very, very popular in the 2000 timeframe until iPhone came about. 70 00:03:45,782 --> 00:03:51,442 Now, BlackBerry internet email was a technology that my company had 71 00:03:51,442 --> 00:03:53,922 developed that BlackBerry acquired. 72 00:03:54,647 --> 00:04:00,907 And it, um, allowed people to access the existing email accounts. 73 00:04:00,987 --> 00:04:06,237 Uh, so we had, uh, reverse engineered all the proprietary email systems 74 00:04:06,442 --> 00:04:06,972 Oh, wow. 75 00:04:07,387 --> 00:04:10,827 AOL, Hotmail, Lotus Notes, etc. 76 00:04:11,187 --> 00:04:15,947 And, um, you could access any of these email systems. 77 00:04:16,392 --> 00:04:18,112 Uh, through BlackBerry internet email. 78 00:04:19,262 --> 00:04:23,742 So, I mean, hats off to you, sir, for doing that, because it sounds like, 79 00:04:24,032 --> 00:04:26,652 you know, we're so used to this, like the iPhone now, you can scan 80 00:04:26,652 --> 00:04:29,572 a QR code and connect to all your accounts and all that sort of stuff. 81 00:04:30,082 --> 00:04:34,302 Uh, but this is in the very early noughties and you're, you're doing 82 00:04:34,312 --> 00:04:38,522 something which sounds to me like it was a bit of a technical breakthrough. 83 00:04:39,032 --> 00:04:44,102 Uh, it, it never really been done before, um, so I'm curious, did you 84 00:04:44,102 --> 00:04:46,892 just wake up one day and think, oh, I'm just going to crack the world of email 85 00:04:46,902 --> 00:04:50,162 because I want email on my Blackberry, or, or was there, was there something 86 00:04:50,162 --> 00:04:51,772 else that sort of was driving this? 87 00:04:53,112 --> 00:04:59,782 Yeah, so this was again in the early, uh, 2001 2002 timeframe, um, where 88 00:04:59,802 --> 00:05:01,732 BlackBerry was getting started. 89 00:05:02,352 --> 00:05:08,282 Uh, at the same time, um, uh, phones, uh, commodity phones, uh, at that 90 00:05:08,282 --> 00:05:13,292 time Nokia and Samsung, et cetera, phones were becoming internet enabled. 91 00:05:13,672 --> 00:05:18,052 And so we said, Hey, wouldn't it be great if you could access your email account? 92 00:05:18,457 --> 00:05:20,347 On your phone, just like with Blackberry. 93 00:05:21,127 --> 00:05:25,797 And so we, um, then looked into all the popular email accounts, 94 00:05:25,827 --> 00:05:29,727 uh, systems out there and found that they were all proprietary. 95 00:05:29,787 --> 00:05:36,707 And so we had to essentially reverse engineer all of these, uh, email systems 96 00:05:37,097 --> 00:05:39,677 to enable access to, uh, those systems. 97 00:05:39,997 --> 00:05:41,537 And we made it very, very simple. 98 00:05:41,537 --> 00:05:45,137 All you had to do was enter your email address and password and boom, you 99 00:05:45,137 --> 00:05:46,677 would be able to access your email. 100 00:05:47,002 --> 00:05:47,312 Mm. 101 00:05:47,827 --> 00:05:50,367 That was very attractive to BlackBerry because they were all 102 00:05:50,367 --> 00:05:52,347 about email access and we gave them. 103 00:05:52,767 --> 00:05:55,137 The ability to access a wide range of accounts. 104 00:05:55,892 --> 00:05:56,322 Yeah. 105 00:05:56,552 --> 00:05:56,962 Yeah. 106 00:05:57,662 --> 00:05:58,212 Crazy. 107 00:05:58,507 --> 00:05:59,227 Crazy times. 108 00:05:59,537 --> 00:06:03,737 And that's, so I take it you had a BlackBerry yourself, you would access your 109 00:06:03,737 --> 00:06:09,447 emails on this, you'd obviously do a lot of testing, um, so was that your first 110 00:06:09,447 --> 00:06:13,747 soiree, if I can put it that way, into the world of tech, or was there something 111 00:06:13,747 --> 00:06:16,407 pre Cracking email on Blackberry. 112 00:06:17,677 --> 00:06:24,677 So before starting my company, which was called T Mon Systems in 2000, for 113 00:06:24,687 --> 00:06:27,887 about 12 years, I had worked at Microsoft 114 00:06:28,177 --> 00:06:28,697 Okay, 115 00:06:29,357 --> 00:06:34,127 and I actually worked on email technology, including doing the, 116 00:06:34,552 --> 00:06:39,582 Acquisition of Hotmail, uh, in 19, um, 97. 117 00:06:40,032 --> 00:06:44,112 And so I had developed, uh, some expertise around email that I, 118 00:06:44,202 --> 00:06:46,062 you know, wanted to leverage. 119 00:06:46,442 --> 00:06:48,392 And that's how I started my first company. 120 00:06:48,567 --> 00:06:48,927 yeah. 121 00:06:49,177 --> 00:06:49,887 Fantastic. 122 00:06:50,407 --> 00:06:54,037 So you were there right at the beginning of when Microsoft took over Hotmail. 123 00:06:55,172 --> 00:06:59,192 Yes, I actually engineered the ac I was the person who, uh, convinced, 124 00:06:59,192 --> 00:07:03,662 uh, Microsoft Management to actually pay $400 million to buy Hotmail. 125 00:07:06,847 --> 00:07:07,917 Of course you were. 126 00:07:09,767 --> 00:07:11,617 That's a great conversation starter. 127 00:07:11,617 --> 00:07:12,697 Well, what have you done in your life? 128 00:07:12,697 --> 00:07:16,187 Well, I convinced Microsoft to spend 400 million quid on an unknown email 129 00:07:16,187 --> 00:07:19,467 platform, uh, which they did obviously. 130 00:07:19,467 --> 00:07:22,127 And, um, I remember when Microsoft bought out. 131 00:07:22,182 --> 00:07:28,794 Hotmail, because obviously like most people back then I had a hotmail email 132 00:07:28,794 --> 00:07:32,734 address, because they did this really simple marketing thing didn't they, every 133 00:07:32,734 --> 00:07:36,588 email that got sent out was an email via hotmail, and so you just clicked the 134 00:07:36,588 --> 00:07:41,122 link oh I've got to get my, I need an email address that will do, What was it 135 00:07:41,122 --> 00:07:46,522 about Hotmail that made you think this is worth 400 million in the late 90s? 136 00:07:46,977 --> 00:07:49,467 This is, I mean, it's a lot of money now, but it was insane 137 00:07:49,467 --> 00:07:50,447 amounts of money back then. 138 00:07:50,457 --> 00:07:52,527 No one had heard of deals like this, right? 139 00:07:53,252 --> 00:07:59,002 You're right, but remember this was in 1997 at the height of the dot com 140 00:07:59,582 --> 00:08:04,942 boom where companies were going public at a billion dollar or more valuation. 141 00:08:05,522 --> 00:08:12,112 So what was interesting about Hotmail was that it was growing very rapidly and 142 00:08:12,182 --> 00:08:17,282 email is a very addictive application. 143 00:08:17,852 --> 00:08:21,862 You need to go check your email, you know, several times a day. 144 00:08:22,377 --> 00:08:26,577 And so, um, I was working on Microsoft at that point, working on msn. 145 00:08:26,637 --> 00:08:29,257 com and we were late to the game. 146 00:08:29,347 --> 00:08:34,457 And so we said, Hey, we need something that brings people to our portal 147 00:08:34,847 --> 00:08:36,497 every day, multiple times a day. 148 00:08:36,897 --> 00:08:41,347 And we heard about Hotmail, saw that it was, uh, delivering, 149 00:08:41,787 --> 00:08:43,907 uh, web based email service. 150 00:08:44,447 --> 00:08:48,097 And it was growing very rapidly, so we decided to make the, uh, the offer. 151 00:08:48,107 --> 00:08:52,977 Actually, Hotmail, uh, at that time was only doing 2 3 million dollars of revenue, 152 00:08:53,437 --> 00:08:59,757 but we had to end up paying 400 million dollars, uh, for, for the, um, system, uh, 153 00:08:59,787 --> 00:09:03,257 because otherwise they would have gone, uh, public at a billion dollar valuation. 154 00:09:04,027 --> 00:09:09,357 Uh, so it was, uh, at that time somewhat of a deal to go get Hotmail at that price. 155 00:09:10,347 --> 00:09:11,057 That's incredible. 156 00:09:11,167 --> 00:09:13,597 I mean, I have to be honest with you, Shirish. 157 00:09:13,597 --> 00:09:18,737 I have a Hotmail account, which I must not have access for like 15 years. 158 00:09:18,737 --> 00:09:21,477 Cause you know, email, all of a sudden you could start buying your 159 00:09:21,477 --> 00:09:22,637 own domain names, couldn't you? 160 00:09:22,637 --> 00:09:24,257 And then Google Mail came along and it changed. 161 00:09:24,637 --> 00:09:28,107 Is Microsoft still in ownership of Hotmail? 162 00:09:28,107 --> 00:09:28,437 Do you know? 163 00:09:28,437 --> 00:09:29,617 Is it still going on? 164 00:09:30,197 --> 00:09:36,397 It is still going on, um, and, um, I still have a Hotmail, uh, account, uh, that's, 165 00:09:36,457 --> 00:09:43,917 that works, um, uh, but, uh, they have now rebranded as, I think, Outlook Mail, and 166 00:09:43,917 --> 00:09:46,467 so it's the same system behind the scenes. 167 00:09:47,357 --> 00:09:50,707 Behind the Curtain is the same system, it's just rebranded as Outlook. 168 00:09:51,187 --> 00:09:51,707 Fantastic. 169 00:09:51,757 --> 00:09:55,417 still out there, but, uh, you know, Gmail is now the dominant email system, 170 00:09:55,657 --> 00:09:57,167 Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it is. 171 00:09:57,677 --> 00:10:02,257 I'm curious, was it a success? 172 00:10:02,257 --> 00:10:04,547 Was it worth the 400 million for Microsoft? 173 00:10:04,547 --> 00:10:07,607 Do you look back at it and go, we did a great deal then? 174 00:10:08,587 --> 00:10:11,517 I think so, because, uh, you know, at that, you know, when we 175 00:10:11,517 --> 00:10:15,647 bought Hotmail, they had about 10 million users growing very fast. 176 00:10:16,167 --> 00:10:18,997 And then over its lifetime, I think they've gotten to a 177 00:10:19,007 --> 00:10:20,847 billion plus email accounts. 178 00:10:21,357 --> 00:10:25,187 So, um, I think it was a good buy for Microsoft. 179 00:10:25,187 --> 00:10:29,097 Yes, it seemed very expensive at that time, but I think ended up 180 00:10:29,107 --> 00:10:30,667 being a good purchase for Microsoft. 181 00:10:31,007 --> 00:10:34,317 so I'm curious and I appreciate, we'll get on to the conversation of 182 00:10:34,317 --> 00:10:36,397 eCommerce, but I'm curious, let's talk about email a little minute 183 00:10:36,407 --> 00:10:37,857 here, because I'm kind of curious. 184 00:10:38,447 --> 00:10:42,467 Why did you and Microsoft at the time go? 185 00:10:44,097 --> 00:10:49,187 Let's buy Hotmail versus let's start our own email platform, right? 186 00:10:49,187 --> 00:10:53,977 So, uh, let's start Outlook email and then we'll be competitors too. 187 00:10:54,672 --> 00:10:56,112 Um, Hotmail. 188 00:10:56,402 --> 00:11:00,152 The reason I'm asking this is because this is a question, the takeover question 189 00:11:00,152 --> 00:11:01,382 is one that plagues a lot of people. 190 00:11:01,382 --> 00:11:05,832 Do I buy an existing thing out there, like an eCommerce business, for 191 00:11:05,832 --> 00:11:09,802 example, do I buy an existing eCommerce business or do I start from scratch? 192 00:11:09,802 --> 00:11:12,592 And so if you don't, let's just dig into this a little bit because 193 00:11:12,592 --> 00:11:17,502 I'm super curious, what, what was the thinking behind, Takeover 194 00:11:17,522 --> 00:11:19,962 versus, um, starting your own. 195 00:11:21,457 --> 00:11:24,937 Yeah, that's, that's actually a very, uh, good question because, uh, 196 00:11:25,077 --> 00:11:31,077 internally, uh, we got pushback from our, uh, from the division at Microsoft 197 00:11:31,087 --> 00:11:32,677 that was working on email technology. 198 00:11:32,677 --> 00:11:33,897 And they said, Oh, we can also. 199 00:11:34,637 --> 00:11:39,837 Build something like Hotmail, but we knew based on past experience that 200 00:11:39,927 --> 00:11:45,527 you know, it would probably take another two years before they would 201 00:11:45,527 --> 00:11:49,427 be able to come out with a similar technology, understand how to scale it. 202 00:11:49,917 --> 00:11:52,047 That's one of the things that Hotmail did was they. 203 00:11:52,127 --> 00:11:55,647 We had scaled it to millions and millions of accounts, which 204 00:11:55,647 --> 00:11:57,867 is not a small undertaking. 205 00:11:58,407 --> 00:12:06,547 And we needed to really, uh, give a big boost to MSN by integrating Hotmail. 206 00:12:06,577 --> 00:12:12,337 We thought we could get a lot of new users through Hotmail becoming members of msn. 207 00:12:12,367 --> 00:12:12,867 com. 208 00:12:13,517 --> 00:12:17,347 And so for that reason, it was, it was a tough decision, but ultimately 209 00:12:17,387 --> 00:12:21,797 Bill Gates decided to go ahead with the acquisition and not wait for the. 210 00:12:22,247 --> 00:12:25,347 Email guys at Microsoft to build a similar technology. 211 00:12:25,692 --> 00:12:26,122 Yeah. 212 00:12:26,372 --> 00:12:27,392 That's really interesting. 213 00:12:27,392 --> 00:12:33,012 So it was the, uh, the time to market and the ability to scale, um, and 214 00:12:33,012 --> 00:12:35,632 they're actually the two really good principles, aren't they, in 215 00:12:35,632 --> 00:12:37,132 terms of do I buy this business? 216 00:12:37,132 --> 00:12:41,722 Well, what's the time to market for me, um, and how easy is it to scale? 217 00:12:41,722 --> 00:12:43,662 And so these guys already had a few million users. 218 00:12:44,432 --> 00:12:47,252 um, versus you would, you would have to build the technology 219 00:12:47,252 --> 00:12:48,392 and you'd start from scratch. 220 00:12:48,392 --> 00:12:52,262 So you'd be a few years behind and I think super important lessons there. 221 00:12:52,532 --> 00:12:54,362 Um, super, super important. 222 00:12:54,632 --> 00:12:56,222 I so. 223 00:12:56,517 --> 00:13:01,107 So, you worked at Microsoft, you then start up your own company, you figure 224 00:13:01,107 --> 00:13:03,407 out internet email for BlackBerry. 225 00:13:03,407 --> 00:13:06,397 So I now understand, because you've got this background in Hotmail, you've 226 00:13:06,397 --> 00:13:09,297 sort of got your head around that, so it gave you sort of a leap forward. 227 00:13:10,477 --> 00:13:14,217 The BlackBerry is no longer with us, so I'm assuming, or maybe it is actually, 228 00:13:14,217 --> 00:13:18,047 and I just don't know about it, but I'm assuming you've done something since 229 00:13:18,047 --> 00:13:22,967 then, uh, to just keep yourself busy more than anything I would have thought. 230 00:13:24,837 --> 00:13:25,097 Yeah. 231 00:13:25,097 --> 00:13:28,957 Well, um, after that I started LiveMocha that you mentioned in the introduction 232 00:13:29,397 --> 00:13:32,677 and, uh, but now I'm focused on helping. 233 00:13:33,352 --> 00:13:34,282 Entrepreneurs. 234 00:13:34,342 --> 00:13:37,962 Uh, so I, uh, write books as you mentioned. 235 00:13:37,962 --> 00:13:43,912 Uh, have to, uh, share some of my experiences, uh, and then I, uh, 236 00:13:43,912 --> 00:13:46,432 invest and, and advise, uh, startups. 237 00:13:46,432 --> 00:13:50,272 I really enjoy doing that and working with smart entrepreneurs. 238 00:13:50,272 --> 00:13:50,332 Yeah, 239 00:13:53,062 --> 00:13:57,812 Was that a, was that a natural progression for you or did you, as in you sort 240 00:13:57,812 --> 00:13:58,962 of, you, you started writing books. 241 00:13:59,262 --> 00:14:02,192 I dare say the thing that happens is you sort of start writing books. 242 00:14:02,192 --> 00:14:05,392 People start to reach out to you and you start to ask, they start asking questions. 243 00:14:05,392 --> 00:14:06,932 You then start to get involved, don't you? 244 00:14:06,932 --> 00:14:09,192 And you kind of figure out what that means. 245 00:14:09,192 --> 00:14:10,822 You know, how do I get involved in startups? 246 00:14:10,842 --> 00:14:14,512 Well they've not really got any money to pay me for my time, uh, 247 00:14:14,532 --> 00:14:17,892 but I can invest in them, uh, for a return of their business. 248 00:14:17,902 --> 00:14:19,582 And I think it's a really interesting model. 249 00:14:20,152 --> 00:14:22,512 Um, How long have you been doing that? 250 00:14:23,322 --> 00:14:26,442 uh, so about for about seven years, last seven years. 251 00:14:26,952 --> 00:14:28,332 Are you enjoying it? 252 00:14:28,997 --> 00:14:29,787 Oh, absolutely. 253 00:14:29,817 --> 00:14:35,027 Um, you know, I, uh, uh, really enjoy meeting with smart, uh, entrepreneurs 254 00:14:35,047 --> 00:14:39,727 and helping them with their strategy and go to market approach and, 255 00:14:39,857 --> 00:14:42,047 um, you know, business models. 256 00:14:42,077 --> 00:14:45,647 Um, those are things that we discuss and, and it's exciting to 257 00:14:46,037 --> 00:14:47,527 see when somebody really succeeds. 258 00:14:48,222 --> 00:14:48,862 Fantastic. 259 00:14:49,192 --> 00:14:55,552 So the title for today's show, uh, Shirish, is Unlocking Marketplace Success. 260 00:14:55,927 --> 00:15:00,887 Marketplace, Marketplace Success, uh, and Overcoming Modern Monopolies. 261 00:15:01,237 --> 00:15:05,857 So unlocking marketplace success, what do you mean by that? 262 00:15:05,867 --> 00:15:08,647 What are some of the things that we should be thinking about at the 263 00:15:08,647 --> 00:15:11,777 moment, uh, based on what you see through your investments, through 264 00:15:11,777 --> 00:15:13,187 your knowledge of the tech industry? 265 00:15:13,557 --> 00:15:16,340 Uh, what, what are some of the things we should be seriously 266 00:15:16,340 --> 00:15:17,903 thinking about right now? 267 00:15:18,232 --> 00:15:18,982 Absolutely. 268 00:15:19,022 --> 00:15:23,682 Um, so one of the things that is interesting about marketplaces is 269 00:15:23,682 --> 00:15:28,212 that you have the chicken or the egg problem and you get started because, 270 00:15:28,242 --> 00:15:32,082 uh, you know, no supplier is going to join your marketplace because there 271 00:15:32,082 --> 00:15:35,732 are no consumers and no consumers are going to come to your marketplace 272 00:15:35,732 --> 00:15:36,952 because there are no suppliers. 273 00:15:36,962 --> 00:15:41,102 So how do you get, uh, around that problem? 274 00:15:41,142 --> 00:15:45,452 And that's what I, one of the things I discussed in my book is you, Focus on 275 00:15:45,452 --> 00:15:51,382 the supply side of the equation and you focus on a narrow market or category. 276 00:15:51,392 --> 00:15:52,842 So I'll give you some examples. 277 00:15:52,897 --> 00:15:53,257 hmm. 278 00:15:54,042 --> 00:15:57,842 Instacart, uh, which is a grocery delivery service in the US. 279 00:15:57,842 --> 00:15:59,392 I don't know if they're in the UK as well. 280 00:16:00,052 --> 00:16:00,832 Um, but, 281 00:16:00,867 --> 00:16:01,697 but I know who you mean. 282 00:16:01,717 --> 00:16:02,617 I do know who you mean. 283 00:16:02,617 --> 00:16:02,817 Yeah. 284 00:16:02,817 --> 00:16:03,947 Yeah. 285 00:16:04,382 --> 00:16:08,452 but you know, they started in, uh, the Bay Area. 286 00:16:08,502 --> 00:16:16,632 And, um, initially what the founder did was, uh, he, uh, went to the Safeway site. 287 00:16:16,752 --> 00:16:19,962 Safeway is a major grocery chain here in the U. 288 00:16:19,962 --> 00:16:20,342 S. 289 00:16:20,732 --> 00:16:24,602 And he scraped all their content and made it available on his website, 290 00:16:25,222 --> 00:16:26,552 uh, without their permission. 291 00:16:26,682 --> 00:16:30,202 Um, you know, not something that's entirely legal to, but you know, you 292 00:16:30,202 --> 00:16:31,822 have to be scrappy as an entrepreneur. 293 00:16:32,532 --> 00:16:36,592 And then, uh, allowed, uh, his customers to place orders through 294 00:16:36,592 --> 00:16:42,242 his website, choose items from the scraped content, and then he would 295 00:16:42,242 --> 00:16:44,012 go deliver the groceries himself. 296 00:16:44,962 --> 00:16:46,432 Uh, so that's one example. 297 00:16:46,432 --> 00:16:50,552 Another example is DoorDash, which is a Food delivery service. 298 00:16:51,032 --> 00:16:53,612 And they started in Palo Alto in California. 299 00:16:54,162 --> 00:16:59,492 And what they did was they actually, uh, scraped the menus off of restaurants in 300 00:16:59,492 --> 00:17:03,717 Palo Alto, and, and they would actually take the order from the consumers. 301 00:17:04,342 --> 00:17:11,272 And turn around and call the restaurant over the phone and 302 00:17:11,482 --> 00:17:15,612 place the order and go pick it up and deliver it to their customers. 303 00:17:15,652 --> 00:17:16,792 And that's how they got started. 304 00:17:17,252 --> 00:17:21,702 Uh, so you have to be scrappy to figure out how to get started when 305 00:17:21,702 --> 00:17:23,872 you have no suppliers on your website. 306 00:17:24,672 --> 00:17:29,252 And then once you have some traffic, then you can go to the suppliers and say, look, 307 00:17:29,262 --> 00:17:33,952 we've been ordering stuff from your web, from your website for all these days. 308 00:17:34,422 --> 00:17:36,722 Why don't you become a partner and become. 309 00:17:37,247 --> 00:17:39,657 You know, integrate over the internet. 310 00:17:40,892 --> 00:17:42,152 That's really interesting. 311 00:17:42,192 --> 00:17:48,212 It's, um, I love those kinds of stories where somebody 312 00:17:48,222 --> 00:17:51,922 somewhere just goes, I just, I'm, there's a proof of concept here. 313 00:17:52,322 --> 00:17:55,482 So DoorDash just goes, I'm just going to put a load of menus on the website. 314 00:17:55,532 --> 00:17:57,142 People are going to order stuff. 315 00:17:57,502 --> 00:17:58,392 I'm going to take their order. 316 00:17:58,392 --> 00:17:59,502 I'm then going to call that. 317 00:18:00,332 --> 00:18:02,132 restaurant, order that food. 318 00:18:02,672 --> 00:18:06,452 pick it up and deliver it and I'm not. 319 00:18:06,612 --> 00:18:08,722 gonna make any money because. 320 00:18:08,842 --> 00:18:15,892 because there's no way you can make money off a 4 5 buck delivery It gives that 321 00:18:15,892 --> 00:18:18,602 really interesting proof of concept, doesn't it, because you don't need 322 00:18:18,602 --> 00:18:23,102 all your ducks in a row, you just, is there a market for this, is there an 323 00:18:23,112 --> 00:18:28,522 easy way to test this concept, to test this idea, yes or no, um, I love your 324 00:18:28,522 --> 00:18:33,422 phrase, you've got to be a little bit scrappy, um, and I think it's just 325 00:18:33,432 --> 00:18:39,332 thinking around that, like, can we prove this concept, yes or no, uh, and 326 00:18:39,332 --> 00:18:42,352 quite quickly I think you'll discover whether it's a yes or whether it's a no. 327 00:18:42,492 --> 00:18:47,772 So with DoorDash and Instacart, they, they, they quite quickly discovered 328 00:18:47,772 --> 00:18:52,152 what was going on and, and obviously grew from there to the point where 329 00:18:52,152 --> 00:18:54,592 they then have people knocking down on their door going, can you 330 00:18:54,592 --> 00:18:56,042 please add my stuff to your website? 331 00:18:56,592 --> 00:18:58,692 Um, really interesting. 332 00:19:00,537 --> 00:19:07,417 Do you see that happening a lot, or do you think, even still today, people are 333 00:19:07,417 --> 00:19:11,217 like, no, I've got to have this, I've got to do this, this, I've got to have all 334 00:19:11,217 --> 00:19:13,077 of these things in a row before I start? 335 00:19:14,577 --> 00:19:20,217 No, every situation I've encountered, um, uh, whether it's Doordash or 336 00:19:20,217 --> 00:19:24,537 Instacart or Airbnb, you know, the founders have been supremely scrappy, 337 00:19:24,617 --> 00:19:29,857 uh, to figure out how to get supply side of the equation on their marketplace. 338 00:19:29,857 --> 00:19:32,367 And then they, uh, go after consumers. 339 00:19:32,377 --> 00:19:37,237 So, um, you know, uh, Airbnb is a good example. 340 00:19:37,237 --> 00:19:43,187 Um, you know, before, uh, before Airbnb, people would use Craigslist to advertise. 341 00:19:43,837 --> 00:19:46,017 That had a house for rent, et cetera. 342 00:19:46,017 --> 00:19:52,207 And so, uh, what the Airbnb founders did was they would go to all the Craigslist 343 00:19:52,207 --> 00:19:55,687 listers, the people doing the listings and say, Hey, you know, why don't you 344 00:19:55,687 --> 00:20:01,647 come on, uh, Airbnb and you can now put pictures of your home on our website 345 00:20:02,437 --> 00:20:04,177 instead of just a list, simple listing. 346 00:20:04,857 --> 00:20:07,617 And so they basically, uh, hacked. 347 00:20:08,322 --> 00:20:13,292 into Craigslist to create supply on their website. 348 00:20:13,547 --> 00:20:16,687 mm hmm, it's really clever, really clever. 349 00:20:17,297 --> 00:20:20,807 What um, I mean, there's lots of different stories there, lots of 350 00:20:20,807 --> 00:20:23,037 different marketplaces, ideas, you know. 351 00:20:23,037 --> 00:20:26,907 So you've got food delivery, you've got shopping delivery, you've 352 00:20:26,937 --> 00:20:28,347 obviously got the home rentals. 353 00:20:28,647 --> 00:20:33,667 What are maybe, just a slightly different turn here, uh, Shirish, what, what do you 354 00:20:33,697 --> 00:20:38,807 see emerging in this kind of marketplace market, for want of a better expression, 355 00:20:39,257 --> 00:20:42,387 that is really quite innovative and that you sort of, you've got your eye 356 00:20:42,387 --> 00:20:44,447 on and think that's going to take off. 357 00:20:44,447 --> 00:20:47,787 Like, what's the next Airbnb or, uh, that you see at the moment? 358 00:20:49,402 --> 00:20:53,872 Um, so right, I mean, there's, there's been an evolution of marketplaces, 359 00:20:54,492 --> 00:20:58,442 uh, over time, you know, from simple listing type of marketplace 360 00:20:58,442 --> 00:21:04,732 like eBay or Craigslist to now marketplaces like Opendoor, um, 361 00:21:05,252 --> 00:21:09,412 which will, you know, basically buy, let's say you have a home for sale. 362 00:21:10,292 --> 00:21:15,992 Uh, they will actually, uh, buy the home from you, renovate it, and 363 00:21:15,992 --> 00:21:19,312 then sell it themselves at a profit. 364 00:21:19,932 --> 00:21:26,592 And it's all a very well oiled machine, uh, where no human 365 00:21:26,592 --> 00:21:27,692 being is really involved. 366 00:21:27,692 --> 00:21:29,802 It's all managed. 367 00:21:30,372 --> 00:21:37,052 For you, so managed marketplaces are a big phenomena, uh, that's happening where 368 00:21:37,382 --> 00:21:42,692 a lot of the transaction is handled for you as opposed to you doing all that work. 369 00:21:44,467 --> 00:21:48,287 Yeah, you see, um, in the UK, you see a lot of, I dare say you have them in the 370 00:21:48,287 --> 00:21:50,727 States as well, a lot of the webuyanycar. 371 00:21:50,767 --> 00:21:55,227 com type thing where, you know, you've got something for sale, we'll buy it for 372 00:21:55,227 --> 00:21:58,997 you, from you cheaper, but we've, we've obviously got a process to, to sell that 373 00:21:59,007 --> 00:22:00,697 somewhere down the line and make a profit. 374 00:22:01,197 --> 00:22:04,237 But at no point in that whole process do you talk to a human 375 00:22:04,237 --> 00:22:06,657 being until the very last minute. 376 00:22:07,192 --> 00:22:10,392 where a human has to inspect your car just to make sure it is 377 00:22:10,392 --> 00:22:11,512 what you said it is, you know? 378 00:22:11,972 --> 00:22:13,532 right, right, right, yeah. 379 00:22:13,712 --> 00:22:18,702 So the more you can automate the whole transaction, the more transactions 380 00:22:18,702 --> 00:22:20,092 that can happen on your marketplace. 381 00:22:20,102 --> 00:22:22,052 So you have to grease that whole process. 382 00:22:22,262 --> 00:22:23,662 Yeah, that's it. 383 00:22:23,732 --> 00:22:24,412 It's very true. 384 00:22:24,582 --> 00:22:26,732 And these are called managed marketplaces. 385 00:22:26,952 --> 00:22:27,582 Yes, management. 386 00:22:27,792 --> 00:22:28,232 yeah, Yeah, 387 00:22:28,282 --> 00:22:28,482 Yeah, 388 00:22:29,482 --> 00:22:34,622 So Opendoor, what other examples have you got, um, of sort of up and 389 00:22:34,622 --> 00:22:37,872 coming spaces like the marketplaces like this, where you think? 390 00:22:38,542 --> 00:22:42,922 Yeah, I'm really, this idea in itself is interesting, like the ability to sell 391 00:22:42,922 --> 00:22:46,372 your house instantly, you know, what, what else do you see happening in that space? 392 00:22:47,592 --> 00:22:50,092 I think there's a lot of potential for B2B. 393 00:22:50,932 --> 00:22:53,292 Marketplace, something I talk about in my book. 394 00:22:53,342 --> 00:22:58,442 Um, you know, another example is a company called Convoy, which is 395 00:22:58,452 --> 00:23:04,572 also located in Seattle, and they basically connect, um, um, you know, 396 00:23:04,832 --> 00:23:10,002 uh, trucking companies, uh, with, uh, companies who want to ship freight. 397 00:23:10,947 --> 00:23:16,257 And they, uh, again, uh, make that process very simple, um, you know, they 398 00:23:16,257 --> 00:23:22,977 will figure out how far you are from the freight supplier and then price 399 00:23:23,037 --> 00:23:26,187 based on your distance because they know how much distance you have to 400 00:23:26,187 --> 00:23:28,637 travel and pick up and deliver, etc. 401 00:23:29,507 --> 00:23:35,917 All that stuff is calculated for you, um, and, and done automatically, uh. 402 00:23:35,967 --> 00:23:37,447 In the old days, um. 403 00:23:38,152 --> 00:23:44,532 Before Convoy came, uh, on stream, uh, you used to actually have brokers who would be 404 00:23:44,532 --> 00:23:49,452 on the phone calling different, you know, freight suppliers and trucking companies 405 00:23:49,452 --> 00:23:53,082 and saying, Hey, you know, I have this freight to be delivered from Seattle to 406 00:23:53,162 --> 00:23:58,632 Portland and, uh, the freight supplier is going to pay you 800 to do that. 407 00:23:58,762 --> 00:23:59,662 Do you want to take it? 408 00:23:59,732 --> 00:24:04,872 And it's a very cumbersome process that is now all automated. 409 00:24:05,392 --> 00:24:09,662 Uh, for you and you know, because of the GPS tracking, et cetera, where the 410 00:24:09,672 --> 00:24:13,902 truck is, when it will be delivered, all of that is all automated for you. 411 00:24:14,327 --> 00:24:14,707 Yeah. 412 00:24:14,957 --> 00:24:15,357 Wow. 413 00:24:15,877 --> 00:24:16,767 Fascinating. 414 00:24:16,897 --> 00:24:18,527 Uh, absolutely fascinating. 415 00:24:18,687 --> 00:24:20,467 The whole managed marketplace thing. 416 00:24:21,087 --> 00:24:29,807 Um, how does that, uh, you see, you mentioned in the book, you 417 00:24:29,807 --> 00:24:31,487 talked about opportunities in B2B. 418 00:24:31,537 --> 00:24:35,007 One of the things that I'm, I'm, I'm trying to understand here is, 419 00:24:35,447 --> 00:24:39,557 We have a lot of people listening to the show who are in eCommerce, right? 420 00:24:39,557 --> 00:24:41,167 So I'm going to say traditional eCommerce. 421 00:24:41,167 --> 00:24:44,017 So they have a website, they sell a product or a digital service 422 00:24:44,017 --> 00:24:46,067 online to their customers. 423 00:24:46,067 --> 00:24:46,767 It's their website. 424 00:24:46,777 --> 00:24:51,027 They may be listing their website in other marketplaces, such as the 425 00:24:51,037 --> 00:24:53,027 obvious one being Amazon, right? 426 00:24:53,057 --> 00:24:56,087 So we sell on our website, we sell on Amazon. 427 00:24:57,417 --> 00:25:03,312 What Um, with what you know, talk to me like, what are 428 00:25:03,312 --> 00:25:04,272 the things that I'm missing? 429 00:25:04,352 --> 00:25:07,462 What are some of the things that I should be thinking about, um, that's 430 00:25:07,462 --> 00:25:11,732 going to help me, uh, based on what you know about, uh, marketplaces, managed 431 00:25:11,732 --> 00:25:14,762 marketplaces, uh, the other stuff you've written in your book, Sirish, what, what 432 00:25:14,762 --> 00:25:16,502 should I be thinking about right now? 433 00:25:18,342 --> 00:25:24,822 Well, so the, the challenge that you face, um, with Amazon is that, uh, 434 00:25:24,842 --> 00:25:30,132 while you get a lot of customers through Amazon, uh, Amazon apparently takes, 435 00:25:30,412 --> 00:25:33,692 you know, a dollar for every 2 of sale. 436 00:25:34,402 --> 00:25:37,542 So they're taking literally 50 percent of the transaction. 437 00:25:38,262 --> 00:25:45,142 In a variety of different, um, um, situations and, um, obviously when 438 00:25:45,142 --> 00:25:50,402 you're giving up 50 percent of your revenue, it's very hard to make a profit. 439 00:25:50,482 --> 00:25:57,012 And so, uh, what eCommerce sites have to consider is, uh, one is are 440 00:25:57,032 --> 00:26:00,322 the other marketplaces that they can join, like Walmart in the U. 441 00:26:00,322 --> 00:26:00,732 S. 442 00:26:01,127 --> 00:26:05,797 And potentially others, or Etsy also, which is a worldwide marketplace. 443 00:26:05,797 --> 00:26:10,707 So, uh, expand your reach where perhaps you can make more of a 444 00:26:10,707 --> 00:26:14,227 profit from each transaction. 445 00:26:14,637 --> 00:26:19,797 And then secondly, uh, you know, see if you can go direct to consumer on 446 00:26:19,797 --> 00:26:23,847 your own website, but that'll also require significant investment in. 447 00:26:24,502 --> 00:26:28,812 In marketing, um, uh, but maybe it'll be profitable. 448 00:26:28,812 --> 00:26:33,252 Uh, there is a rule of thumb that we have in the venture world, which is 449 00:26:33,252 --> 00:26:37,602 your lifetime value of your customer has to be at least three times 450 00:26:37,632 --> 00:26:39,282 the cost of customer acquisition. 451 00:26:39,622 --> 00:26:40,072 Yeah. 452 00:26:40,362 --> 00:26:43,542 Well, uh, assuming you spend a dollar on marketing. 453 00:26:44,357 --> 00:26:48,967 To acquire a customer, make sure you're making at least 3 in profit from that 454 00:26:48,967 --> 00:26:50,547 customer over, over the lifetime. 455 00:26:50,547 --> 00:26:54,987 If that is the case, you have a direct consumer opportunity as well. 456 00:26:55,452 --> 00:26:55,802 yeah. 457 00:26:56,352 --> 00:26:59,462 Now it's interesting that ratio, um, the three to one ratio, you 458 00:26:59,462 --> 00:27:02,292 know, your lifetime value to your, they call it CAC, don't they? 459 00:27:02,292 --> 00:27:03,082 The cost, uh, 460 00:27:03,292 --> 00:27:04,132 customer acquisition 461 00:27:04,197 --> 00:27:04,752 LTV to 462 00:27:05,012 --> 00:27:06,162 Yeah, LTV to CAC. 463 00:27:06,612 --> 00:27:10,182 And so the ratio three to one has been, um, has been banded 464 00:27:10,182 --> 00:27:11,362 around I think for a little while. 465 00:27:11,632 --> 00:27:15,082 What's interesting, um, and maybe you can talk to this is I'm starting 466 00:27:15,082 --> 00:27:16,482 to hear rumours that actually that. 467 00:27:16,852 --> 00:27:21,022 Ratio has now got to increase for investors to be interested just 468 00:27:21,022 --> 00:27:25,282 because the cost of money is going up with higher interest rates. 469 00:27:25,282 --> 00:27:29,392 So obviously for investors, there's the opportunity cost is now greater because 470 00:27:29,392 --> 00:27:30,592 they can get interest on their money. 471 00:27:31,282 --> 00:27:33,712 Um, and borrowing money is now more expensive. 472 00:27:34,132 --> 00:27:40,372 Uh, so I, I've heard a number of people talking about a four to one, even a five 473 00:27:40,372 --> 00:27:44,302 to one, um, uh, lifetime value to, uh, uh. 474 00:27:44,722 --> 00:27:48,622 Customer Acquisition Costs or LTV to CAC. 475 00:27:49,067 --> 00:27:54,627 Yeah, that's, that is true because, um, um, as you rightly mentioned, you 476 00:27:54,627 --> 00:27:59,837 know, um, when you're calculating the LTV, um, you're discounting future. 477 00:28:00,232 --> 00:28:04,532 Cashflow to the present, and the higher the interest rate, the more the 478 00:28:04,532 --> 00:28:06,422 cashflow in the future gets discounted. 479 00:28:06,422 --> 00:28:12,092 And so, um, you know, when you have, um, um, higher interest 480 00:28:12,097 --> 00:28:16,082 rates, uh, that ratio can be more like four to four or five to one. 481 00:28:16,382 --> 00:28:16,772 Yeah, 482 00:28:16,792 --> 00:28:18,142 Uh, so you're absolutely right. 483 00:28:18,232 --> 00:28:21,892 Um, that's always a good, you know, place to be because, um, 484 00:28:22,302 --> 00:28:26,362 then you clearly have profitability that you can then raise money on. 485 00:28:26,792 --> 00:28:27,782 yeah, yeah. 486 00:28:28,082 --> 00:28:30,212 And it's an interesting one, isn't it? 487 00:28:30,212 --> 00:28:33,352 Because it helps you define marketing budget. 488 00:28:34,622 --> 00:28:38,082 We had Matt Pooner on the show last week. 489 00:28:38,122 --> 00:28:39,942 Well, he was the last person I interviewed. 490 00:28:39,942 --> 00:28:42,832 Well, he's the last week in terms of show order. 491 00:28:42,832 --> 00:28:44,662 I don't actually know why these things come out. 492 00:28:45,482 --> 00:28:52,187 But he was talking about this and creating a really clear Marketing budget on the 493 00:28:52,187 --> 00:28:53,987 basis of what you call blended ROAS. 494 00:28:54,527 --> 00:28:58,347 Um, but again, understanding that ratio, you, you know, understanding 495 00:28:58,387 --> 00:29:01,817 lifetime value to customer acquisition costs is really quite an interesting 496 00:29:01,837 --> 00:29:03,037 thing to sort of think about. 497 00:29:03,587 --> 00:29:06,447 Um, especially if you've got the cash, I mean, a lot of people starting out 498 00:29:06,457 --> 00:29:11,317 don't have the cashflow to bankroll, um, you know, these sorts of things. 499 00:29:11,317 --> 00:29:13,297 And so you, they, they tend to be much higher. 500 00:29:13,957 --> 00:29:23,807 Um, So, I, friends, so we're talking then about marketplaces, managed marketplaces, 501 00:29:23,807 --> 00:29:29,757 talking about startups and hustle, um, and maybe not just relying on Amazon 502 00:29:29,767 --> 00:29:32,987 now, obviously looking at different marketplaces, having your own direct to 503 00:29:32,997 --> 00:29:37,197 consumer site, um, understanding that. 504 00:29:37,997 --> 00:29:41,947 What do you mean when you talk about overcoming modern monopolies then? 505 00:29:43,312 --> 00:29:43,642 Yeah. 506 00:29:43,762 --> 00:29:48,052 Um, so one of the, um, hypothesis of the book, uh. 507 00:29:48,847 --> 00:29:55,197 Is that, uh, once you get a marketplace going, then it, there's a virtuous 508 00:29:55,467 --> 00:30:01,747 cycle that follows where as you add more suppliers, more consumers come to 509 00:30:01,747 --> 00:30:04,897 the site because there's a wide array of suppliers and then more suppliers 510 00:30:04,897 --> 00:30:06,327 come because there are more consumers. 511 00:30:06,392 --> 00:30:11,662 And then basically the end state is when you become a monopoly. 512 00:30:11,857 --> 00:30:12,187 Yeah. 513 00:30:12,892 --> 00:30:16,452 And so you've seen that multiple times with Amazon, with eBay, with 514 00:30:16,582 --> 00:30:19,362 Alibaba and Instacart and DoorDash. 515 00:30:20,112 --> 00:30:21,802 They all become monopolies. 516 00:30:21,832 --> 00:30:27,497 Um, or it's, it's either a winner take all or Take most kind of situation. 517 00:30:28,377 --> 00:30:33,927 Um, the problem with becoming a monopoly is that it becomes very easy to abuse 518 00:30:34,797 --> 00:30:39,137 that monopoly power to the detriment of your consumers and suppliers. 519 00:30:39,637 --> 00:30:44,177 And I give several examples of that in my book about Amazon and Apple and Google. 520 00:30:45,687 --> 00:30:51,897 Amazon, for example, has a private label business called Amazon Basics. 521 00:30:51,897 --> 00:30:52,257 You may be 522 00:30:52,417 --> 00:30:52,667 Yeah. 523 00:30:52,667 --> 00:30:52,957 Yeah. 524 00:30:53,397 --> 00:30:53,417 Yeah. 525 00:30:53,417 --> 00:30:53,837 I've seen that. 526 00:30:53,837 --> 00:30:54,207 Yep. 527 00:30:54,482 --> 00:30:59,502 Um, and so what has happened is, uh, people internally within Amazon 528 00:30:59,512 --> 00:31:05,402 have, uh, been able to access, you know, proprietary data from different 529 00:31:05,402 --> 00:31:10,262 suppliers to figure out which markets are the most profitable to enter into. 530 00:31:10,942 --> 00:31:17,522 And then they basically, uh, uh, you know, reverse engineer that item 531 00:31:17,862 --> 00:31:20,932 and go directly to the manufacturers and say, why don't you manufacture 532 00:31:20,932 --> 00:31:22,432 that product for us as well? 533 00:31:22,997 --> 00:31:27,327 And then, uh, when you go to the website, they will self preference themselves 534 00:31:27,607 --> 00:31:29,667 higher than other manufacturers. 535 00:31:30,457 --> 00:31:34,967 And so, uh, that has created a lot of problem for many suppliers 536 00:31:34,967 --> 00:31:39,017 who now suddenly find themselves in competition with Amazon. 537 00:31:39,807 --> 00:31:43,437 Uh, so it's not something that the, you know, management of 538 00:31:43,437 --> 00:31:46,107 Amazon has explicitly said. 539 00:31:46,757 --> 00:31:49,957 You know, Jeff Bezos has not gone out there and said to people 540 00:31:49,957 --> 00:31:51,687 in his company, go do this. 541 00:31:52,257 --> 00:31:56,097 It's just that people have abused the monopoly power to their 542 00:31:56,097 --> 00:31:58,967 own, you know, uh, benefit. 543 00:31:59,707 --> 00:32:05,737 Uh, so as management team, Amazon has to make sure that, you know, they, you 544 00:32:05,737 --> 00:32:11,027 don't give access to proprietary data to the average individual within Amazon. 545 00:32:12,862 --> 00:32:13,182 Yeah. 546 00:32:13,182 --> 00:32:14,402 That's really fascinating, isn't it? 547 00:32:14,402 --> 00:32:18,382 And you, this is always the danger, isn't it, when you sell on a marketplace like 548 00:32:18,392 --> 00:32:23,982 Amazon, the customer's not yours, it's the customer's theirs, the data is theirs, um, 549 00:32:24,002 --> 00:32:29,172 you're just there for the sale and hoping that by selling on Amazon, it actually 550 00:32:29,172 --> 00:32:33,482 raises awareness of your brand and people might migrate from Amazon to your website. 551 00:32:33,482 --> 00:32:35,712 And there's a strategies behind how you do that, isn't there, 552 00:32:35,712 --> 00:32:37,152 and sort of thinkings to do that. 553 00:32:37,872 --> 00:32:38,342 Um. 554 00:32:39,512 --> 00:32:45,402 But you're right, there is a danger here, um, that as a, as an eCommerce 555 00:32:45,422 --> 00:32:49,182 brand, if you're selling on marketplaces, you are, you are in effect giving 556 00:32:49,182 --> 00:32:55,832 free access to your sales data, um, to these marketplaces, uh, as well 557 00:32:55,832 --> 00:32:58,562 as obviously a commission and a, and a cut and so on and so forth. 558 00:32:58,582 --> 00:33:01,642 So you do see the rise of Amazon Basics, you know, and, and. 559 00:33:02,277 --> 00:33:05,007 Um, and also one day Amazon might just go, yeah, I don't want you 560 00:33:05,007 --> 00:33:06,067 to sell on my website anymore. 561 00:33:06,247 --> 00:33:09,077 And there's not a whole great deal you can do about it to be fair. 562 00:33:09,507 --> 00:33:11,737 Um, and you know, if that's your business, you're, you know, 563 00:33:12,097 --> 00:33:15,297 there's plenty of stories of people being screwed over like that. 564 00:33:16,237 --> 00:33:21,907 Um, so I mean, you've talked about this as in, if you become a 565 00:33:21,907 --> 00:33:23,737 monopoly, don't abuse your power. 566 00:33:23,807 --> 00:33:24,187 Right. 567 00:33:24,197 --> 00:33:26,177 So a bit like, um. 568 00:33:27,812 --> 00:33:31,472 I'm, I'm going back to the 1990s now, uh, when you were at Microsoft, 569 00:33:31,492 --> 00:33:34,122 they were in the press all the time, you know, being investigated 570 00:33:34,132 --> 00:33:35,572 because of their monopoly power. 571 00:33:35,952 --> 00:33:38,092 You don't tend to see that as much these days, actually. 572 00:33:38,092 --> 00:33:41,612 Every now and again, the EU takes a bit of a swipe at Apple. 573 00:33:41,662 --> 00:33:44,422 You know, you've got to use USB C chargers or it's no go. 574 00:33:47,057 --> 00:33:50,047 But you don't tend to see those sort of big court cases now over 575 00:33:50,047 --> 00:33:51,447 monopolies that you used to see. 576 00:33:51,997 --> 00:33:55,347 Um, but obviously they, they, they exist in, in Apple in 577 00:33:55,507 --> 00:33:56,707 quite, quite some major ways. 578 00:33:56,717 --> 00:33:58,827 So I'm always curious as to why it's not happened to Apple yet. 579 00:33:58,857 --> 00:34:08,217 But all that aside, um, what do I need to think about as an eCommerce 580 00:34:08,907 --> 00:34:13,717 company that is maybe going to other people's marketplaces? 581 00:34:13,747 --> 00:34:16,887 I mean, you've, you've talked a little bit about having a direct to consumer side. 582 00:34:17,712 --> 00:34:20,602 Be aware that you're, you know, you're giving them your sales data. 583 00:34:20,602 --> 00:34:22,362 Is there anything else I should think about? 584 00:34:24,877 --> 00:34:30,467 Yeah, I mean, um, the other thing that, um, you might want to be careful about 585 00:34:30,467 --> 00:34:35,797 is, is, uh, making sure that nobody under, nobody knows who your manufacturer, 586 00:34:35,837 --> 00:34:41,117 let's say you're manufacturing the item in China, is to do that as secret, you 587 00:34:41,117 --> 00:34:45,597 know, as, as possible so that nobody, you know, whether Amazon, anybody else 588 00:34:45,727 --> 00:34:50,017 doesn't go back to that manufacturer and re engineer the same item. 589 00:34:50,302 --> 00:34:50,642 Yeah. 590 00:34:51,082 --> 00:34:53,162 And have strong agreements in place over that. 591 00:34:53,262 --> 00:34:56,952 Um, yeah, suppliers can really mess up your business if you're not careful. 592 00:34:56,952 --> 00:35:01,912 That was my, certainly my experience, you know, um, so, uh, let's, 593 00:35:03,642 --> 00:35:05,052 let's start from the beginning. 594 00:35:05,112 --> 00:35:05,422 Right. 595 00:35:05,432 --> 00:35:05,462 Okay. 596 00:35:05,852 --> 00:35:08,172 Um, I get the. 597 00:35:08,697 --> 00:35:11,147 The benefits of doing the marketplace, right? 598 00:35:11,147 --> 00:35:14,857 I, I, from a, just from an entrepreneurial point of view, I see the benefit. 599 00:35:15,117 --> 00:35:17,987 If I can create a marketplace, I don't need any product. 600 00:35:18,687 --> 00:35:20,017 I just need people to list. 601 00:35:20,237 --> 00:35:25,007 I need a mechanism to connect a buyer and a seller together and take a 602 00:35:25,007 --> 00:35:26,847 small percentage in the middle, right? 603 00:35:27,267 --> 00:35:32,037 And it doesn't have to necessarily be a big percentage, but it can, if it's a big 604 00:35:32,037 --> 00:35:34,077 market, it can be super profitable, right? 605 00:35:34,962 --> 00:35:37,822 And the bigger I get, the more profitable it's going to be, the more 606 00:35:37,822 --> 00:35:38,752 people are going to depend on me. 607 00:35:39,272 --> 00:35:41,302 How do I get started, right? 608 00:35:41,322 --> 00:35:44,542 Because I'm sitting there thinking, this is genius, I should have mattsmarketplace. 609 00:35:44,612 --> 00:35:46,082 com or whatever, you know, I'm going to set up. 610 00:35:48,042 --> 00:35:54,402 How do I pick a good industrial market to think about marketplaces in? 611 00:35:54,402 --> 00:35:59,672 Because the ones that I'm thinking of, um, Shirish, I think are very oversaturated, 612 00:36:00,422 --> 00:36:02,152 but I don't know if that should stop me. 613 00:36:02,222 --> 00:36:04,752 You know, there's already Amazon in the eCommerce world. 614 00:36:05,522 --> 00:36:09,502 Um, at some point I dare say someone's going to knock Amazon off their perch 615 00:36:09,522 --> 00:36:11,542 because no one ever stays on top forever. 616 00:36:12,162 --> 00:36:17,482 Um, but I don't, I don't know if that's going to be me in my shed. 617 00:36:17,482 --> 00:36:18,212 I don't, I don't know. 618 00:36:18,232 --> 00:36:19,052 I'm just kind of curious. 619 00:36:19,212 --> 00:36:20,502 Where would you start with it all? 620 00:36:22,262 --> 00:36:29,832 Um, well, um, I would, um, one is looking at, um, markets in which 621 00:36:29,842 --> 00:36:35,692 emerging markets where, uh, Amazon is not yet, you know, a dominant player. 622 00:36:35,702 --> 00:36:40,862 So for example, uh, in India, before Amazon, uh, became a major player, you 623 00:36:40,862 --> 00:36:46,662 had companies like Flipkart, uh, which was founded by, uh, two engineers who 624 00:36:46,662 --> 00:36:48,442 had worked at Amazon, went back to India. 625 00:36:48,987 --> 00:36:52,217 And started something, started a marketplace like Amazon. 626 00:36:52,347 --> 00:36:57,937 Um, so if you happen to be from a different country, uh, then perhaps 627 00:36:57,967 --> 00:37:02,597 you could create a marketplace in a different location where Amazon or 628 00:37:02,607 --> 00:37:06,087 Walmart or somebody else is not dominant. 629 00:37:06,727 --> 00:37:12,507 Uh, the other option I could take is to, you know, go deep into one category. 630 00:37:12,627 --> 00:37:18,627 So, um, you know, uh, today Amazon, for example, is not, um, uh, a 631 00:37:18,627 --> 00:37:20,767 marketplace really for fashion goods. 632 00:37:21,627 --> 00:37:25,737 Uh, uh, so maybe in a different country, in a different location, I 633 00:37:25,737 --> 00:37:30,177 might be able to create a marketplace just for fashion brands and, and, 634 00:37:30,637 --> 00:37:33,997 and do some of the things that Amazon doesn't do, such as providing data and 635 00:37:34,067 --> 00:37:36,997 giving them branding opportunities, et 636 00:37:37,052 --> 00:37:37,472 Yeah. 637 00:37:37,892 --> 00:37:38,272 Yeah. 638 00:37:39,037 --> 00:37:42,887 basically I have to do things that, um, I have to look for, you 639 00:37:42,887 --> 00:37:45,917 know, niche locations or categories where I can really dominate. 640 00:37:47,302 --> 00:37:50,132 So niche it down or go to a different country. 641 00:37:52,452 --> 00:37:53,072 I like that. 642 00:37:53,132 --> 00:37:54,102 I like the thinking there. 643 00:37:54,102 --> 00:37:54,192 And it's. 644 00:37:54,372 --> 00:38:01,102 So, if I'm going to say start a marketplace, and you mentioned fashion 645 00:38:01,102 --> 00:38:06,152 brands, um, what makes a good marketplace? 646 00:38:06,152 --> 00:38:11,972 Do I have to, do I sit there and think, what, this is how my brain works, right? 647 00:38:11,982 --> 00:38:16,222 What is it that the customer's not currently getting when they buy on other 648 00:38:16,222 --> 00:38:20,542 websites that I can give them in this marketplace other than choice, right? 649 00:38:20,542 --> 00:38:24,682 Because I have to do something, well, do I have to do something? 650 00:38:25,247 --> 00:38:26,577 That is more than just choice. 651 00:38:26,577 --> 00:38:28,857 Do I have to be innovative in some kind of way? 652 00:38:29,737 --> 00:38:31,727 What, what do I need to think about that? 653 00:38:31,727 --> 00:38:34,787 Yeah, 654 00:38:34,787 --> 00:38:35,167 yeah, right. 655 00:38:35,207 --> 00:38:42,947 I mean, initially, um, um, it's, um, all about, uh, you know, creating, 656 00:38:42,967 --> 00:38:46,397 it's all about choice, uh, convenience and price, as you know, right? 657 00:38:46,457 --> 00:38:49,277 Those are the three, uh, major items. 658 00:38:49,287 --> 00:38:56,857 Um, so, you know, maybe, um, uh, maybe, uh, it's price, uh, maybe you price 659 00:38:56,857 --> 00:39:03,227 goods at a, at a level that you can't get directly from the, um, uh, supplier. 660 00:39:03,777 --> 00:39:05,167 And that happened in India. 661 00:39:05,842 --> 00:39:13,952 Uh, so for example, Flipkart, uh, for a long time, because they had enormous VC 662 00:39:13,962 --> 00:39:19,542 funding, they basically subsidized the sale of smartphones on their marketplace. 663 00:39:19,542 --> 00:39:24,672 So it became really inexpensive to buy those smartphones and they lost money 664 00:39:24,672 --> 00:39:30,062 on every sale, but that is what made those marketplaces really popular. 665 00:39:30,787 --> 00:39:37,057 Now, having said that, I would say that you have to have, you know, significant VC 666 00:39:37,067 --> 00:39:39,817 funding to be able to afford to do that. 667 00:39:40,427 --> 00:39:45,197 But initially it has to come down to, you know, price or convenience. 668 00:39:45,637 --> 00:39:49,667 So on convenience, maybe you implement, you know, free shipping for a 669 00:39:49,667 --> 00:39:52,217 certain period of time or whatever. 670 00:39:52,267 --> 00:39:57,367 But again, for that, you need money to try some of those tactics. 671 00:39:57,907 --> 00:39:58,267 Yeah. 672 00:39:58,877 --> 00:40:02,477 I'm, as you're talking, I'm thinking about one of our websites we used to own. 673 00:40:02,567 --> 00:40:05,367 I sold it a few years ago called Jersey, Jersey Beauty Company. 674 00:40:06,027 --> 00:40:10,397 And in effect, we sold Different beauty brands. 675 00:40:10,402 --> 00:40:11,057 That's what we did. 676 00:40:11,057 --> 00:40:13,577 We, we, you know, we bought in from different suppliers. 677 00:40:13,577 --> 00:40:15,107 We had to get supplier agreements. 678 00:40:15,407 --> 00:40:18,347 We then sold that product on our website direct to consumer. 679 00:40:18,947 --> 00:40:25,737 Um, and I don't, I don't, I, that's not technically a marketplace. 680 00:40:25,737 --> 00:40:27,567 I wouldn't have thought that was just me buying products and 681 00:40:27,567 --> 00:40:28,707 trying to sell 'em a profit. 682 00:40:29,157 --> 00:40:32,127 Um, but what intrigues me about the beauty industry is. 683 00:40:33,142 --> 00:40:39,352 This idea of doing a beauty marketplace where, where you could bring in 684 00:40:39,762 --> 00:40:42,672 just about everybody's, you could scrape the data and bring it in. 685 00:40:42,672 --> 00:40:44,822 And as long as you've got some way of buying it now, a lot of 686 00:40:44,822 --> 00:40:49,392 beauty brands now have terms and conditions of supply, right? 687 00:40:49,592 --> 00:40:54,232 So, um, at the time there Dermalogica. 688 00:40:55,152 --> 00:40:59,932 And Dermalogica, you had to have a salon, a beauty salon to, so 689 00:40:59,932 --> 00:41:03,412 they, they, they, they, they had quite stringent terms of supply. 690 00:41:03,412 --> 00:41:06,392 You had to have a salon, a trained therapist to get that, you know, in 691 00:41:06,392 --> 00:41:09,032 their products to buy their product to then sell it on your website. 692 00:41:09,922 --> 00:41:13,262 Um, your website had to conform to certain standards. 693 00:41:13,752 --> 00:41:20,212 Um, and then in 2012, they changed their pricing policy. 694 00:41:20,212 --> 00:41:20,852 Was it 2012? 695 00:41:20,852 --> 00:41:21,702 I think it was 2012. 696 00:41:22,362 --> 00:41:25,592 Basically, they changed their pricing policy to one which was the more you 697 00:41:25,592 --> 00:41:29,982 buy, the more you pay, uh, which sounds a bit odd, but that's what they did. 698 00:41:31,117 --> 00:41:32,477 for reasons known to them. 699 00:41:33,017 --> 00:41:37,427 Um, and so then, you know, our prices went up cause we were quite a big 700 00:41:37,427 --> 00:41:39,167 supplier of their, of their product. 701 00:41:40,577 --> 00:41:46,177 How do you get around this with marketplaces in terms of there 702 00:41:46,177 --> 00:41:51,077 are suppliers out there who are very, very anti use selling? 703 00:41:51,157 --> 00:41:55,147 Their stuff online or being some kind of, we were not allowed part 704 00:41:55,147 --> 00:41:57,427 of the terms and conditions supply with most of the beauty brands. 705 00:41:57,907 --> 00:42:00,697 We couldn't sell on Amazon and we couldn't sell on eBay. 706 00:42:00,967 --> 00:42:02,737 We had to sell it direct on our website. 707 00:42:02,737 --> 00:42:04,747 We couldn't sell outside the European Union. 708 00:42:05,247 --> 00:42:10,187 Um, and, you know, Dermalogica have since built their own direct to 709 00:42:10,187 --> 00:42:11,882 consumer business, which you, I, I. 710 00:42:12,512 --> 00:42:15,332 As a business person, I understand, why would I not want to go direct to 711 00:42:15,342 --> 00:42:16,552 consumer and make the most profit? 712 00:42:17,262 --> 00:42:22,312 Um, for somebody in the middle, it's quite tricky dealing with a supplier like that. 713 00:42:23,192 --> 00:42:23,692 right. 714 00:42:23,892 --> 00:42:28,252 So how do you, how do you mitigate that if you're, if 715 00:42:28,252 --> 00:42:29,742 you're doing your own marketplace? 716 00:42:29,742 --> 00:42:33,572 You know, if you find these, if you find suppliers that just aren't interested 717 00:42:33,572 --> 00:42:37,382 in working with you, but you've hustled a little bit, um, what are some, what 718 00:42:37,382 --> 00:42:38,682 are some of your experiences there? 719 00:42:40,792 --> 00:42:45,032 I mean, um, this has happened on Amazon as, um, the only way to get 720 00:42:45,032 --> 00:42:50,202 around that is somehow get that product from the black market in a sense. 721 00:42:50,222 --> 00:42:55,482 Uh, find some, somebody, some salon out there who is willing to sell you 722 00:42:55,482 --> 00:42:59,932 that product and then you turn around and sell it on your marketplace. 723 00:43:00,092 --> 00:43:03,722 Uh, but if the supplier is not willing to sell you product, there's not much 724 00:43:03,722 --> 00:43:08,962 you can really do about it except to buy it from other sources at a. 725 00:43:09,347 --> 00:43:11,087 Inexpensive, uh, price. 726 00:43:11,092 --> 00:43:11,402 Mmm. 727 00:43:11,967 --> 00:43:16,557 Did you try that, uh, you know, getting it from the product from other salons? 728 00:43:16,742 --> 00:43:17,162 Mm-Hmm. 729 00:43:17,662 --> 00:43:21,852 At the time, no, but part of me, I mean, and I, I appreciate the problems that 730 00:43:22,862 --> 00:43:27,362 buying on the black market does, but it's, it's one of those where you kind of go, if 731 00:43:27,362 --> 00:43:31,522 I was going to do it now, if I was going to set up a beauty website now, not that 732 00:43:31,522 --> 00:43:34,072 I would, but if I, if I was going to. 733 00:43:34,672 --> 00:43:37,572 Um, I think you would have to find a way around it. 734 00:43:37,582 --> 00:43:41,612 So part of me would be actually probably the better thing I can do is go around 735 00:43:41,612 --> 00:43:46,902 to all the Dermalogica salons, um, that have Dermalogica accounts and create a 736 00:43:46,922 --> 00:43:54,922 Dermalogica marketplace where they all put their details in, uh, because they're 737 00:43:54,922 --> 00:43:58,192 a small salon, they've not got time to do their own website or anything like that. 738 00:43:58,212 --> 00:43:59,882 You know, we market that. 739 00:44:00,267 --> 00:44:06,927 We sell, uh, the products to the end consumer, um, but it's the, the salon 740 00:44:06,927 --> 00:44:09,037 that fulfills the orders from their stock. 741 00:44:09,127 --> 00:44:09,717 Do you see what I mean? 742 00:44:09,717 --> 00:44:11,007 We connect the buyer and the seller. 743 00:44:11,297 --> 00:44:14,957 So we've thought about that, you know, could we do something around that, for 744 00:44:14,957 --> 00:44:18,397 example, Dermalogica might be a bad example because I don't think it's a 745 00:44:18,397 --> 00:44:20,277 particularly popular brand anymore. 746 00:44:20,907 --> 00:44:24,667 I think they, they shot themselves in the foot slightly, just my personal opinion. 747 00:44:24,882 --> 00:44:27,592 Uh, please DemoLogical lawyers, don't shoot me, it's just an opinion. 748 00:44:28,142 --> 00:44:33,602 Um, but it's, it's one of those where I think, I, I think I could do 749 00:44:33,602 --> 00:44:37,192 something a bit more creative, uh, if that makes sense with the salon owners 750 00:44:37,477 --> 00:44:37,687 Yeah. 751 00:44:37,687 --> 00:44:40,747 I mean, as I said, you have to figure out a way to get that supply 752 00:44:41,587 --> 00:44:46,867 and either you buy it from the salons or create a marketplace. 753 00:44:47,407 --> 00:44:49,477 For the salons to go through your site. 754 00:44:49,552 --> 00:44:51,192 yeah, no, very clever. 755 00:44:51,567 --> 00:44:52,197 Very clever. 756 00:44:52,587 --> 00:44:53,267 Loving that. 757 00:44:54,127 --> 00:44:55,767 Um, listen, I'm aware of time. 758 00:44:55,797 --> 00:44:58,797 As always, I'm just getting warmed up, uh, and as always, I'm 759 00:44:58,797 --> 00:45:00,217 coming to the end of the time. 760 00:45:00,217 --> 00:45:02,907 It flashes on my screen going, you've got a few minutes left. 761 00:45:03,627 --> 00:45:06,657 Uh, listen, Cherish, it's been great chatting to you, man, 762 00:45:06,657 --> 00:45:09,927 and, um, love the story about Microsoft, by the way, and Hotmail. 763 00:45:10,057 --> 00:45:10,797 I'll remember that. 764 00:45:11,217 --> 00:45:12,867 I will remember that, I have no doubt. 765 00:45:13,357 --> 00:45:15,897 Uh, if people want to reach out to you, if they want to find out more 766 00:45:15,897 --> 00:45:19,207 maybe about the book, uh, where to get the book, how to get ahold of 767 00:45:19,207 --> 00:45:20,357 you, what's the best way to do that? 768 00:45:22,137 --> 00:45:26,227 Yeah, so you can search for my two books on Amazon. 769 00:45:26,287 --> 00:45:32,177 Um, you know, so you search by my name, Shirish Nadkarni, or 770 00:45:32,177 --> 00:45:34,037 you can come to my website, www. 771 00:45:34,097 --> 00:45:36,287 shirishnadkarni. 772 00:45:36,307 --> 00:45:36,697 com. 773 00:45:37,157 --> 00:45:38,287 I'm also on LinkedIn. 774 00:45:38,307 --> 00:45:39,167 I'm on Twitter. 775 00:45:39,647 --> 00:45:41,467 I welcome people to connect with me. 776 00:45:41,527 --> 00:45:44,467 Um, if you're an entrepreneur, if you have any questions, 777 00:45:44,537 --> 00:45:46,677 happy to chat with you anytime. 778 00:45:47,237 --> 00:45:48,937 Fantastic, fantastic. 779 00:45:49,227 --> 00:45:53,557 We will of course link to all of that information on the website 780 00:45:53,597 --> 00:45:55,127 and in the show notes as well. 781 00:45:55,127 --> 00:45:58,657 So if you're listening to this podcast on your Uh, non 782 00:45:58,657 --> 00:46:00,417 BlackBerry device, I dare say. 783 00:46:02,157 --> 00:46:07,397 You can, uh, you can click the link, uh, and that will take you straight through. 784 00:46:07,927 --> 00:46:11,277 Uh, listen, super appreciate you coming onto the show, man. 785 00:46:11,287 --> 00:46:15,867 Genuinely love the conversation and really, really appreciate you being here. 786 00:46:15,867 --> 00:46:19,077 Lots to think about and you've resurrected some ideas in my head. 787 00:46:19,077 --> 00:46:20,467 So a big thank you for that. 788 00:46:21,777 --> 00:46:22,317 Thank you, Matt. 789 00:46:22,347 --> 00:46:23,727 I really enjoyed the conversation. 790 00:46:24,307 --> 00:46:25,177 Fantastic. 791 00:46:25,497 --> 00:46:26,317 Well, there you go. 792 00:46:26,807 --> 00:46:29,737 What another fantastic conversation. 793 00:46:29,747 --> 00:46:32,267 Huge thanks again to Shirish for joining me today. 794 00:46:32,667 --> 00:46:36,327 Uh, make sure you subscribe to the podcast, wherever you get your podcast 795 00:46:36,337 --> 00:46:39,887 from, because we've got some more great conversations lined up, and I 796 00:46:39,937 --> 00:46:41,677 don't want you to miss any of them. 797 00:46:41,987 --> 00:46:44,867 And in case no one has told you yet today, let me be the first person 798 00:46:44,867 --> 00:46:46,767 to tell you, you are awesome. 799 00:46:47,147 --> 00:46:47,737 Yes, you are. 800 00:46:47,807 --> 00:46:48,667 Created awesome. 801 00:46:48,877 --> 00:46:50,657 It's just a burden you have to bear. 802 00:46:51,257 --> 00:46:52,237 Shirish has to bear it. 803 00:46:52,517 --> 00:46:53,417 I've got to bear it. 804 00:46:53,877 --> 00:46:54,897 You've gotta bear it as well. 805 00:46:54,987 --> 00:46:59,037 It's just the way it is now, this show is produced by the Talented and 806 00:46:59,037 --> 00:47:02,037 amazing Sadaf Beynon, Tanya Hutsuliak. 807 00:47:02,187 --> 00:47:04,187 The theme song was written by Josh Edmundson. 808 00:47:04,202 --> 00:47:07,317 And as I said, if you would like to read the transcript, the show notes, all 809 00:47:07,317 --> 00:47:11,307 those sorts of good things, head over to the website eCommerce podcast.net, 810 00:47:11,337 --> 00:47:15,437 where they all await for you and you can consume them to your heart's content. 811 00:47:16,017 --> 00:47:19,917 Uh, so all that's left for me to say is, uh, thank you so much for joining us. 812 00:47:19,917 --> 00:47:20,547 That's it from me. 813 00:47:20,547 --> 00:47:21,457 That's it from Shirish. 814 00:47:21,672 --> 00:47:24,692 Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world. 815 00:47:24,972 --> 00:47:26,002 I'll see you next time. 816 00:47:26,552 --> 00:47:27,052 Bye for now.