Peter Reaburn (00:00)

whatever your goal is, putting emphasis on your weakness. And as an older athlete, it should be definitely on strength. And then just move the strength down and the endurance training up as you get closer to your goal. Stretch. Do flexibility training to maintain the range

Paul Warloski (00:46)

Hello and welcome to the Athletes Compass podcast where we navigate training, fitness and health for everyday athletes. Today we are honored to have Dr. Peter Reaburn join us on the podcast to talk about endurance athlete longevity. Dr. Reaburn is a leading voice on the science of masters athletics, a recently retired professor at Bond University's Institute of Sport and Health in Australia. He spent years supervising PhD research on the applied sports science.

health and performance recovery of masters athletes while serving on the editorial board for the European review of aging and physical activity.

Peter Reaburn (01:19)

you

Paul Warloski (01:24)

But what makes Dr. Reaburn's work so compelling is that he doesn't just study masters athletes. He is one, a former national champion in surf life-saving, a master's national Ironman triathlon champion, an avid road cyclist, and a record-setting swimmer. His work challenges the notion that aging means declining and offers science-based backed strategies for endurance athletes who refuse to slow down. Welcome to the Athletes Compass, Dr. Reaburn.

Peter Reaburn (01:55)

A pleasure to be here, Paul.

Paul Warloski (01:57)

So what are you training for now that you're retired?

Peter Reaburn (02:01)

Well, I've been ⁓ seconded into ⁓ the National Masters Swimming Championships. We have a Masters Swimming Club that I'm very involved in and a group of gentlemen over the age of 70 who decided to have a serious crack. in just under four weeks time, we have our National Championships not too far away from where I live. that's getting me back into some heavy training for the first time in quite a while.

Paul Warloski (02:31)

what do

Paul Laursen (02:32)

awesome.

What sort of distances are you starting out at, Like weekly?

Peter Reaburn (02:36)

Well, my

focus is on the endurance events. I've entered the open water swim, 1500 meters, the 200, 400, and 800 meters freestyle. And sadly, or positively, I don't know which, I've been conned into doing some sprint relays. it's a short course meet. So 25 meters and 50 meters sprints, which are...

isn't my forte, but it's getting me going and I must admit I'm starting to enjoy it again.

Paul Laursen (03:09)

Awesome. Very, cool.

Paul Warloski (03:13)

So as a highly competitive masters athlete yourself, what have you learned firsthand about sustaining performance into older age?

Peter Reaburn (03:14)

Good day.

I suppose without a doubt Paul, the one thing I have noticed as I've gotten older is my competitiveness has dropped off. I used to be a guy that would set a goal and work hard towards it and achieve. And then, you know, I'd take a, I'd recover. I'd always take sort of that mental break from events that I'd focused on hard. And then I'd

start refocusing on another goal, but sort of just over the last four or five years that competitive urge has dropped, which I never thought it would. having been getting going again into the swimming, I have learnt that there is absolutely no doubt that I'm not recovering as quickly as I used to.

particularly after high intensity training, which for me these days is either weight training or sprint training. We can discuss that later. The other thing I've noticed ⁓ is that my flexibility has dropped and there's a need to maintain my flexibility, ⁓ particularly in the ⁓ hip joint. For me, ⁓ in swimming, getting down to starting a freestyle swim, a sprint.

off the blocks I'm finding difficult these days. So flexibility has become really important for me. And I have learned that because I've been at it for a long, long time, my training age, I've got a very good endurance training base. It's very easy for me to maintain my endurance base. It's not easy for me to maintain the top end speed. ⁓

So for me that means a combination of doing both sprint training and weight training because you know I've learnt over the years through study and experience that my strength and indeed my muscle mass it seems to be declining in my older age.

Paul Laursen (05:32)

Yeah, it's so interesting. ⁓ You mentioned that, ⁓ Peter, there was an interesting course, you know, tweet back and forth exchange with Alan Cousins recently, and he was talking about the decline that we see in VO2 max ⁓ with age, the natural one across the cycle. you know, we often blame that on the heart not functioning, but kind of to your point, ⁓ Alan.

and others were arguing that a lot of it kind of comes down to the fact that the muscle itself is no longer really taking that up, right? There's this overall sarcopenia, loss of muscle mass that's kind of slowly happening. even kind of at the down, the cascade downwards, we can't even receive that anymore. And a lot of it's, know, it's not just the heart, it might actually be.

Paul Warloski (06:13)

you

Paul Laursen (06:27)

kind of just what you're expressing right there. It's just that sarcopenia kind of thing happening.

Peter Reaburn (06:29)

Yeah, and there is,

there has been some research evidence over quite a few years. It pops up every now and again. Some people like cousins are coming up with this belief that muscle mass, if it can be maintained through resistance training specifically, because that gives the load that's required to maintain the muscle mass.

And it's periodized in a way for an older endurance athlete to develop that muscle mass and then turn it into endurance mass through increase the mitochondrial content, the capillarization to enable those peripheral adaptations that we know are required for endurance to occur.

We can't do much about the decline in the maximal heart rate. That is going to decline regardless of any training, but certainly those peripheral adaptations can occur ⁓ with an increase in muscle mass and then turning it into endurance mass.

Paul Laursen (07:37)

Yeah. And isn't that wonderful because almost like, it's like, it's giving you the listener and us ⁓ a little bit of control. like, okay, yeah, that's going to happen. But you know what? If I'm working on my, you know, my, strength work and my, my hiit work done appropriately, then, I'm giving myself all the, all the chances to kind of hold onto more of that muscle mass. ⁓

as I age. that's good news.

Peter Reaburn (08:07)

I one of the hardest challenges for an older athlete, particularly an endurance athlete, is finding the time to fit extra.

training him. I'll give an example. made a mind that hasn't done Ironman Triathlon for 20 years. He's done Hawaii a couple of times. So he's at that high performance end. He's had to qualify to get to Hawaii. And that's his goal again now at the age of 70. But

For him, I'm his mentor, I suppose, in terms of his training, what we've done for him is even before he started doing a lot more endurance training in triathlon, more swimming, more riding, more running, we had him develop his muscle mass in the gym to the detriment of his endurance. So we periodized his...

Paul Warloski (08:59)

Hmm.

Peter Reaburn (09:00)

resistance training as the priority. So he developed his strength and his muscle mass and doing exactly as we've just been talking about. He's now reducing the amount of resistance training, particularly the hypertrophy, ⁓ muscle enlarging ⁓ resistance training. Now he's maintaining that with once a week, sometimes twice a week, resistance training heavy. But he's now starting to emphasize more the specific endurance training.

Paul Laursen (09:32)

I love that I hand over to MJ a comment on that because I know she's kind of in a lower endurance phase right now and it must be good news for you to hear all of this stuff from Peter, you know, because that's kind what you're following right now.

Marjaana Rakai (09:48)

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I back it up a little bit. I've always done strength training, ⁓ so that's always been on my schedule, on my exercise menu. But I've had some heart issues the last four months. was training towards Norsemen. I don't know if you know what Norsemen is, but then something triggered my heart issues.

Peter Reaburn (10:10)

Yes, I do.

Marjaana Rakai (10:16)

So my endurance training has gone down the drain. ⁓ But I'm desperately trying to keep my muscle mass in check. Today I was happy to be able to do some HIIT work as well. So that was wonderful.

Paul Laursen (10:40)

Yeah, going in the right direction.

Peter Reaburn (10:43)

Very smart move, Marjaana You're a relatively young Masters athlete. I'm guessing, I have to be very diplomatic here, but I'm guessing in your 30s?

Paul Warloski (10:44)

Pity.

Marjaana Rakai (10:57)

my gosh, you're too kind. I'm 48.

Peter Reaburn (11:00)

Okay, okay. Well, maybe

I was being too diplomatic there, but certainly, you you're entering that age where muscle strength and mass is starting to decline. I think the older we become, ⁓ male or female, we hit that 60, 65, and particularly, and I just get myself 70 now, I'm just turning 71. But

that decline in muscle mass and strength is accelerated, particularly after that 60 to 65 age group. So that it becomes more important the older we become to maintain.

Marjaana Rakai (11:39)

I

wonder though if women actually hit that a little bit earlier with perimenopause and menopause and then ⁓ men are lucky enough to keep chucking along a little bit longer. ⁓ But what I've experienced myself is like what you said, like flexibility, mobility.

is worse than it used to. I used to be very flexible and now it's hurts a little bit more to wake up and get going. I wouldn't say personally for me, my strength hasn't declined much because I am very aware of that and I enjoy lifting weights. I have it on my garage just over there so I can do some lifting 20 minute sessions almost.

every other day, which I really enjoy.

Peter Reaburn (12:36)

Yeah, I'd be strongly recommending maintaining that and I think you're right. think, yeah, the male hormone ⁓ impact that does occur, andropause, I think is the correct terminology, but that does tend to hit men more aggressively as they get older.

Marjaana Rakai (12:57)

Mm.

Peter Reaburn (12:57)

And

your point about flexibility is another, Paul asked me the question, think flexibility earlier around maintaining performance, that range of motion around for me, the shoulder joint and the hip joint has become really, really noticeable. Maybe it's because I'm sitting a lot more as an academic, you tend to sit a lot more, you sit on the bike a lot more, you sit in front of a computer more as we're doing now, you sit a lot.

range of the hip keeps tightening up, the lower back tightens up, we need to be more focused on flexibility as well as the strength to maintain range of motion and performance.

Paul Laursen (13:40)

Yeah, especially in a swimmer, Peter. Again, I might have mentioned the last time we chatted, but I've got a 15-year-old daughter who's a solid swimmer. And I think one thing I've really learned from her is just almost how in the sport of swimming, how the two almost intermix, At the top end, you sort of really need that range of motion to ⁓ capture water in swimming ultimately.

we were doing some exercises and it was just kind of these wall bends and stuff. like, I'm demonstrating here on video, right? But she's, I can put my arms to here, but she basically puts her biceps like behind her head, right? But you can imagine how important that is in streamlining and stuff, right? At the speeds that she can go at. it's, anyways, it really, I was like, oh wow, there's a difference from a 15 year old to a.

Peter Reaburn (14:07)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Marjaana Rakai (14:21)

You

Paul Laursen (14:35)

a 55 year old, that's, I guess it just keeps going the wrong direction. We don't kind of maintain it.

Peter Reaburn (14:40)

It does. And

for my swimming, get laughed at, know, criticized sometimes for doing my, I do some active range of motion mobility, and then I do some static stretching before every swim session. And there's Peter doing his thing, know, flopping his arms around. I have a routine that I've stuck with, and to go back to the importance of flexibility and to strength.

Paul Laursen (15:00)

Yeah.

Peter Reaburn (15:06)

the importance of for injury prevention of both of those in the older athlete. I'm a huge believer in both of those, strength and range of motion for injury prevention in the older athlete, even though the research historically may have said that flexibility or range of motion isn't that important, but for me, it certainly held me in very good stead.

Paul Warloski (15:35)

Peter, just to go back a step, I just want to clarify something you said. You were talking about muscle mass and developing that through resistance training, but then you called it endurance mass. What did you mean by that?

Peter Reaburn (15:49)

For me, if we can develop the muscle mass, so through resistance training and specifically hypertrophy muscle enlarging resistance training ⁓ of the muscle groups that are required for the sport, that's where the emphasis needs to be, but we need to then turn that into endurance muscle mass.

through specific endurance training, so swimming, cycling, rowing, running, then that, we then are going to have all those peripheral adaptations.

Paul Warloski (16:29)

Peter, you've researched that masters athletes recover physiologically at different, at similar rates to younger athletes, but perceive recovery differently. Can you unpack what you mean by that and its practical implications? Cause you were talking earlier about how you were feeling like you recover more slowly.

Peter Reaburn (16:40)

Mm-mm, mm.

Yes, I've had a number of PhD students that have looked into this aspect and both of them have come up with that same result that older athletes do tend to if we look at their ability to repeat endurance performance,

four hours, 12 hours, 24, 48 hours after an exercise bout similarly to younger people. That seems to be the case, but they still feel more tired. So their perception is there. So my experience would be the same. And I put it...

Personally, I put it down to relatively unreached, not too well research area of neural fatigue. I just think for me, the nervous system is going to be declining. We know it does in older people, where our reaction time isn't as great. The conduction velocity of the electrical signal to the muscles, it decreases. So is that neural fatigue? Is there...

I just do believe it's neurally that we're more fatigued. Particularly I need to say, as I mentioned earlier, for me it's after weight training or sprint training, where there is maybe more muscle damage within those fast twitch top end fibers, the two Xs, the two As, two Bs, depending on.

Paul Laursen (18:17)

.

Peter Reaburn (18:30)

whatever jargon you want to use, that neurology there's damage, but also there might be some muscle fiber damage at that end. So ⁓ I find particularly after hard training, weights or sprints that I am more fatigued. I do need longer to recover.

Even though I can go and still do my endurance training at that reduced intensity, still it's harder for me. I feel it's harder, even though time wise, it may not look that way. So for me, these days, I only do heavy weight heavy training. For me, it sprints or weights twice a week and well spread. ⁓

Marjaana Rakai (18:51)

you

Peter Reaburn (19:14)

and I put a really strong emphasis on my recovery strategies as well, particularly protein, if there is muscle damage, I make sure, and I take a leucine supplement along with my protein supplement ⁓ as a separate supplement, I take the leucine, because I know it's a stimulus for muscle recovery and increase in muscle mass. ⁓ And I really make sure I emphasize, I use cold, hot and cold showers.

Paul Warloski (19:27)

Hmm.

Peter Reaburn (19:43)

But after the hard training, tend to go cold, sorry, warmer, because I know that there's some evidence research recently that's talking about cold being negative for weight training adaptations, but good for general recovery.

Paul Laursen (20:05)

So keep going on the leucine. Why leucine? And is that something that ⁓ the listener should be kind of searching for if they're looking for a ⁓ recovery aid, augmentation? They should be kind of looking at potentially their protein powders and looking for leucine on that. Is that right?

Peter Reaburn (20:26)

Yes,

Paul, research has shown that the branch chain amino acids, of which they are a group of the essential amino acids for muscle ⁓ regeneration and muscle development, and leucine of all of those seems to be the greatest stimulus for muscle ⁓ mass and regeneration. As long as, and this is the key, the ticker, the kicker is that

it's done after hard training. So it needs that stimulus of resistance training and I equate sprint training with resistance training because it's a load, it's loading up those fast twitch muscle fibers that endurance training doesn't get to. So we need that maximal stimulus of muscle to stimulate those high end fast twitch fibers.

Paul Warloski (21:03)

Hmm.

Peter Reaburn (21:26)

and leucine is one of those that seems to be able to help regenerate muscle fibers and muscle mass.

Paul Laursen (21:36)

Good. I had another question. know, Peter, you're talking a lot about the high intensity spectrum of exercise, resistance training, sprint training, know, big recruitment sort of stuff. But you're no stranger with all your Ironmans to zone two training. Where does zone two sit in the, I don't know, recipe or diet of the aging endurance athlete?

Peter Reaburn (22:03)

it's the bread and butter. Another thing that both you and I, and I'm guessing everybody here, Paul and Marjaana MJ, I'll start using that. The work of the Norwegian, the Norwegians in particular and Stephen Seiler sort of led this push towards polarised training.

And the polarized training where there's zone one, zone two is definitely the bread and butter of the endurance athlete. Historically, was the threshold work that was the bread and butter. And I'm guessing you're the same as me, Paul Laursen For me, that was my bread and butter. I'd always do the zone one, two stuff, but my key sessions were always threshold.

But as I've gotten older and learned more through the reading of Seiler and others, I've made sure that I maintain my zone in one and two work, but I make sure I do more top end above threshold work in hiits So the short high intensity training, I was laughing the other day, I call it ship training, but

Paul Warloski (23:17)

Thank

Paul Laursen (23:17)

Yeah.

Peter Reaburn (23:17)

but also

the longer hiits ⁓ But that now has become my modus operandi. Even when I'm doing endurance training, I'll make sure I do some little hiit work every session.

Paul Laursen (23:35)

Yeah, well we just ⁓ literally got off with MJ, Coach MJ we call her ⁓ in the velocity sessions doing a nice series of 30-30s and ⁓ yeah we were right on page in that with Athletica and the stuff we tried to promote so we love hearing that Peter.

Marjaana Rakai (23:36)

⁓ it.

So you mentioned that your perception ⁓ of recovery is delayed. It takes you longer to recover from, let's say, high intensity interval training or heavyweight training. And then you focus on the recovery aspect, cold, hot therapy, making sure you get your protein. What else? How do you adapt your endurance training?

then if you feel like you're not quite recovered, you drop it? Do you drop intensity, duration? How do you work that in?

Peter Reaburn (24:36)

Both, both. I'm a huge believer and to go back to Paul's first question, know, what have I learned? What are the keys? My number one key is listen to my body. Listen to your body. know, know despite what a coach might say or what the books might say or what you've learned from the past, I've learned the older I get and it's just experience.

There's nothing gained by going out and pushing when you're tired. So I listen to my body and for me, if I, and you always know for me, it's first stroke, it's first pedal stroke, it's first step. You become very attuned to your body if you're running. Whatever you're doing, you know immediately, this is good or I'm in trouble here. I'm tired.

Paul Warloski (25:33)

You

Paul Laursen (25:33)

Mm-hmm, it's

not true.

Peter Reaburn (25:34)

So

I always, Nancy, a question, Marjaana, I reduce the intensity and I reduce the duration, probably with more of an emphasis on the intensity than the duration.

Marjaana Rakai (25:50)

so there's no too low for you when it comes to intensity.

Peter Reaburn (25:53)

⁓

I find it, can't go too slow in the pool and I can't go too slow when I jog. But on the bike, no, I just get into the small gear and I just spin, spin the legs. And if I was gonna go for now, you know, historic in Ironman at one hour.

It used to be one hour, but these days I just go for a spin for 20 minutes, 30 minutes on the bike, just to turn the legs over, no load, on the flat, and use what I call active recovery. And that is one of my go-tos. I use active recovery because I believe I'm getting blood circulation to the working muscles, and it's got to be helping recovery for me.

Paul Laursen (26:44)

Yeah. I'll just, I'll spin off that as well. Context, 55 year old, ⁓ kind of experienced endurance athlete too. ⁓ One of the things when I do that first pedal stroke that Peter mentioned and still like often, like Peter's kind of saying, it's not there today kind of thing. But ⁓ one thing I do like to do is continue on for like at least 20 minutes.

Marjaana Rakai (26:44)

Beautiful.

Paul Laursen (27:12)

And more often than not, ⁓ I all of a sudden, after 20 minutes or so, feel I come good. And do you feel that Peter? Like it's all of a sudden, it's like, okay, that's what I needed, right? And it's almost like the engine wakes up a little bit. The central nervous system wakes up. Don't know what it is, but I just feel better. And then I can kind of get into a little bit more of what was actually planned.

Peter Reaburn (27:17)

Yeah.

Again, Paul, that's listening to your body and I would concur. If I was Ironman training and I went out and I felt it and I'm going, oh, I'm only going to 20 minutes and I came good, I'd keep going because I'm trained, I know what my end goal is. I need to get the miles into my legs or into my arms.

Marjaana Rakai (27:53)

I think one of the hardest things as a coach is to teach the feel and the intuition and the trust that that is the right voice inside you for any given, especially those hard days when you're not quite feeling it, but you feel the pressure of, I have Ironman in four months. I gotta get this done. So what would be your best

Paul Warloski (27:59)

Mm-hmm.

Marjaana Rakai (28:21)

⁓ advice for someone who is doubting that he should or she should listen to that voice.

Peter Reaburn (28:30)

noticed Paul having a ride, Paul L having a ride, smile there. You we've all been there. Without a doubt, I just say it's experience. You must listen to your body. And if you'd planned a couple of hours ride and it's not happening and you get, you know, let's use the same analogy, we got to 20 minutes and I'm starting to feel okay, I can keep going at this lower intensity, then go with it.

Paul Warloski (28:35)

Yeah.

Peter Reaburn (28:59)

I don't think anything can beat experience, MJ. I just, when I was a young man, you I would have pushed through that. ⁓ And I have over trained, ⁓ but I've learnt. And if I'm guessing you're the audience here are older athletes that would have that experience.

Although there were a lot of athletes, I call them rekindlers that are coming back into the sport thinking I might be 50, but I remember what I used to be like, you know, when I was 25 or 30, you know, I'm now coming back after a career and family. want to get back into the sport is another big mistake to go back to one of Paul's else W's first questions is, you know, don't re you got to remember how long have you been at it for or are you coming back? You're not 30 anymore.

you're 50. So that listening to your body, you really need to be tuned in and recognise that you are older and you aren't as strong or as fast or as fit as you were when you were 30.

Paul Warloski (29:53)

.

Paul Laursen (30:07)

Yeah. Well, I love, I love the wisdom point as well, MJ, and I'm just kind of even thinking like in your experience too, right? Where you were, you, MJ's a overtrained, she had a pretty nice experiences in overtraining and I made nice is probably the wrong word, but those hard, those hard moments, they shape you and they give you wisdom and then you can teach others, right? ⁓ So. ⁓

Paul Warloski (30:07)

How should... how should...

Mm.

Peter Reaburn (30:30)

But the problem Paul is

you can't put an older head on younger shoulders, know, you're, you're, now, now I'm 71. Yeah. If only we had that young body on the older head, you know.

Paul Laursen (30:36)

We know that now. Yeah.

Marjaana Rakai (30:39)

you

Paul Laursen (30:45)

I've

Paul Warloski (30:45)

be a different

Paul Laursen (30:46)

only,

Paul Warloski (30:46)

story.

Paul Laursen (30:46)

nothing comes with that. It just doesn't work that way.

Peter Reaburn (30:48)

Yeah.

Marjaana Rakai (30:52)

⁓ Life would have been quite more different.

Paul Laursen (30:54)

you

Peter Reaburn (30:56)

Yes,

exactly.

Paul Warloski (30:58)

So you were talking earlier, Peter, about polarized trainings. Is that how we should structure our training intensity and volume ratio as we move into our 50s, 60s, and 70s? Is that a better way of doing things?

Peter Reaburn (31:15)

I go back to what I was just talking about, Paul, you know, and I cannot emphasize enough the importance of training age for me.

I had a co-supervisor of one of my PhD students. name was, the co-supervisor was Riley Deoneghe. And Riley is a sociology of sport lady and a sociology specifically of masters sport. just bought a really unusual and different perspective when I was working with her with one of my.

PhD students that was looking at successful aging in masters athletes. she talks about, you know, I mentioned the rekindler, the 30, the 50 year old that's come back into their sport. They're rekindling their passion for the sport. But there's also the late bloomers, Riley called them the late bloomers, that have never done sport or did it at school and have never

pursued it and then at 50 or 60 go, ⁓ I used to enjoy swimming. I'm going to start master swimming. And then you've got the continuers, which is us. I'm including we four people here that have never stopped with love sport. We've never stopped. So to go to your point, it's that those like us that have never stopped, we have this enormous training base. We've got this experience that we can

use and I'm a strong believer that polarization training, polarized training and it's being reinforced by the research is saying that it tends to work more effectively in the big training based people, the people that have got a lot of work behind them. So the Norwegian cross country skiers, know, that are using it, that they've got this huge base. The rekindlers

the people that are just getting back into it or the late bloomers that are just starting in don't have that base. So for me to go to your question, I think that the continuers have got a big training base of years. I think it's gonna be effective because it's something that's different. It's a new stimulus. Whereas any type of intense training

Paul Warloski (33:42)

Hmm.

Peter Reaburn (33:49)

that's gonna develop that athlete's experience and develop their physical capacities, their endurance base, their threshold, their top end speed, their functional ⁓ capacity. Those people that don't have the training base need to be, wouldn't be stepping for me into that polarized training straight away. They'd be more progressively getting there over time. I cannot emphasize that.

⁓ enough that we need to be very aware of the training age of either the athlete themselves that's making those decisions or when we're coaching that the coach needs to be aware of that.

Paul Laursen (34:32)

Yeah, really good point. Couldn't agree more.

Paul Warloski (34:35)

Hmm. Peter, I put out the fact that we were going to be interviewing you to our forum and we had a great question from Phil, who is a long distance cyclist. And this is what his question was. no rider aged 80 or over has successfully completed Paris-Brest-Paris, a 1200 kilometer event that takes place over four days every four years. Riders over the age of 80 have tried but failed to finish.

For an athlete currently in their 50s, 60s, and 70s, what would you say is a good approach roadmap to being that successful 80-year-old?

Peter Reaburn (35:13)

Exactly what I've been talking about. For me, is, you know, those 80 year olds would probably not have had the benefit of sports science that we now have. That research is increasingly showing that weight training for the older athlete is critical for both performance and for health.

Paul Warloski (35:15)

Yeah.

Peter Reaburn (35:40)

And for daily living, you know, we lose that muscle mass, it's going to happen. Let's do all we can when we're 50, 60, 70 to try and hold on to that muscle mass. Let's eat more protein in our throughout the day, because that is going to help me build that muscle mass and maintain that muscle mass. That science is showing that we need to recover.

smarter. We need to sleep more. We need to have high glycemic index carbohydrates immediately after training. We need to have a protein immediately after training, ideally in a liquid form, having the proteins with an emphasis on leucine or leucine added to that carbohydrate protein drink. To use science far more,

in that 50, 60, 70, and then we will have it ingrained by the time we're 80 to finish that event. I'd also be making sure that they progressively build their training in terms of ultra insurance. I've done a few ultra events. It's a completely different ⁓ mindset altogether.

But yeah, for me, trying to hold on to that muscle mass, which is not easy when you're doing ultra events, but it does come back to making sure that we periodise our training. So we put more emphasis on the hypertrophy and muscle mass development at the expense maybe of the endurance, but then we spin that around and we're starting to put more emphasis on the distance rather than the muscle mass development.

we're trying to maintain it with some resistance training in the gym.

Paul Laursen (37:39)

Nice. I think we know what Phil has his eyes set on. So that's great. And yeah, we wish him all the best. Yep.

Paul Warloski (37:44)

Yeah.

Peter Reaburn (37:45)

for him.

But use science and if he's working with this group, then he's in good hands because you guys know the science and I'm guessing he wants to become the first.

Paul Laursen (38:00)

I think he does, and we know he does, yeah, and we know he does use the science. So yeah, good luck Phil.

Marjaana Rakai (38:01)

We're definitely.

Yeah.

We're cheering for you, Phil. ⁓ You haven't mentioned sleep yet. I'm curious to learn from you. Have you noticed sleep difficulties or has your sleep changed at all over the years or you're sleeping like a champion?

Peter Reaburn (38:27)

I sleep six and a quarter, six and a half hours sleep. I emphasize and have for a long, long time what the research has shown consistently. Cold, dark, quiet. I also have a routine where I will typically watch some television ⁓ and then I will go to, I don't touch my phone. I then,

will read, it's my routine. I will read until the book almost hits me in the face and I just quietly put the book down and I'm asleep within 30 seconds. So I have my routine that I stick to ⁓ every night regardless of where I am, what time, where I am. I try to get the same conditions and it has worked for me. it's because of all the hormonal changes that occur during sleep, it's the number one. ⁓

Paul Laursen (39:04)

Hahaha.

Peter Reaburn (39:23)

recovery strategy.

Paul Laursen (39:26)

Yeah, that's awesome. about about napping during the day? Are you a napper Peter or not?

Peter Reaburn (39:30)

I've never been a napper. Never, unless I've, for whatever reasons, social reasons, know, traveling reasons, I'll nap, but I won't nap late in the in the day, I'll nap just after lunch. Because again, the research says that napping late in the day, particularly having naps, if I remember rightly, over 40 minutes, has been shown not to be not to be ⁓ conducive to getting the next sleep. So if I do nap, it's very short.

Paul Laursen (40:00)

Nice.

Peter Reaburn (40:00)

and it's early in the day.

Paul Warloski (40:03)

Peter, I want to ask one selfish question. You know, how do you help masters athletes adjust expectations while maintaining their motivation? For example, I'm 62 and I'm watching my FTP on my bike just drop every year. How do you keep the motivation going?

Peter Reaburn (40:22)

You know, I was only talking with my 70 year old mate who's having a crack at Hawaii again. He's going to Korea. If he doesn't qualify in Korea, he's going to go and do Iron Man New Zealand next year, which I know Paul has done, think, historically. That is concerning Mike. His name's Mike. And it is one of his biggest, he's quite an anxious guy.

Paul Laursen (40:39)

few of those.

Peter Reaburn (40:51)

he needs me to reassure him. My answer to him when he was saying, Pete, you know, I'm just not able to do what I used to do on the bike, in the pool, running. I say, Mike, so is everyone in your age group is going through exactly that. So in terms of the competitive older athlete, be aware that the issues you're having, they are having. But also be aware that,

These declines, you need to just get in your head that these declines are going to occur. I'm going to try and use all the science and all the evidence to try and minimize those declines, but I am not what I used to be. And these are the reasons. Physiologically, anatomically, these are the reasons I need to just accept. And I used one of my drivers, Paul.

Paul Laursen (41:44)

Mm-hmm.

Peter Reaburn (41:51)

was I used to be able to beat the youngsters. Now what I have in my head, keep the youngsters honest. So for me, it's beating you. It's beating a 62 year old. That is motivation for me. When the gun goes, I turn into a different animal. I become very quiet and aggressive competitor, but very mild nature leading into it. When the gun goes, I change.

Marjaana Rakai (42:12)

Yes.

Paul Laursen (42:16)

Ha

Paul Warloski (42:18)

you

Peter Reaburn (42:19)

But it's just have that mindset, I'm going to give my best, I'm going to try and beat you, some of you youngsters, and hopefully do well in my age group, knowing that everyone else in my age group is up against exactly the same battles as I have.

Paul Laursen (42:38)

Yeah, it's nice. You're kind of reframing the situation and you have to be accepting of the reality of what's occurring naturally.

Peter Reaburn (42:41)

you

Paul Warloski (42:42)

Mm-hmm.

Peter Reaburn (42:47)

It's.

Yes, it's not an easy thing. And I know people that have had psychological ⁓ issues around that. ⁓ A gentleman that Paul Elm may remember called Greg Radan. He was the first Australian triathlete to complete Hawaii. ⁓ And he was a world class Ironman and Olympic distance triathlete and surf lifesaver. I swim with Greg a couple of times a week and ⁓

About 10 years ago, he started having atrial fibrillation issues, MJ, heart issues. And he had to completely change from competitor to participant. And he had needed psychological support to get through that.

He's a believer in the value of health rather than the need to compete. But it took a long, long time for him to get to that. It was a complete reframing ⁓ of himself as a person when he knew he had this belief he was Greg Radan the athlete. Now he's Greg Radan the exerciser.

Paul Laursen (44:01)

We.

Marjaana Rakai (44:02)

That is beautiful. I'm experiencing exactly the same. I was training for Norsemen and realized I have to shift my thinking from competitor to I'm still doing this. So a couple of weeks ago, I went to Norway to do a ski race, which was supposed to be 54k.

Paul Warloski (44:04)

Yeah.

Marjaana Rakai (44:28)

marathon, ski marathon over three mountains. And over the winter I consulted Paul several times, I cut this distance to half, which I eventually did and was 28k, ⁓ pretty flat and then coming down from the mountains. And it was really humbling experience ⁓ going from the competitor to I need to survive this.

So I had to stop several times to let my heart rate come down because it was just sky high. And ⁓ had to be okay with not leading any packs or even be in the lead pack and just be okay to stop and look around and enjoy the beautiful Norwegian winter. And yeah, it was very humbling, but...

Peter Reaburn (45:12)

Yeah.

Marjaana Rakai (45:27)

I'm hoping that these issues are temporary and I can still, you know, put the bib on and feel the different animal come alive.

Peter Reaburn (45:34)

Yeah,

yeah, yeah. It's not an easy thing to go through,

Paul Laursen (45:42)

Peter, were actually, yeah, we were chatting about this ⁓ and ⁓ our colleague, Steven Seiler, he recently tweeted this issue has just come up on him just a couple of weeks ago. So he's come open and said the same thing. And then you kind of take a Google Earth standpoint and we're really...

We're in uncharted territories because I don't think we've had this volume of lifelong athletes in the history, And Paul Warloski is, you're no stranger to this as well. ⁓ it's very interesting ⁓ just the numbers that are coming up with these AFib and other type sort of issues around the world as we become aging athletes.

Peter Reaburn (46:36)

It's without a doubt Paul, it's my greatest concern as in terms of my training. I do not want to end up with a fib. I do not want to end up as Gregor Dan has with the pacemaker and a number of other athletes that I now know they're in their late 60s, early 70s that have done my trajectory as well. ⁓

Paul Laursen (46:44)

Yeah, mine too.

Peter Reaburn (47:04)

I've looked up particularly Greg is about 10 years older than me. So I learned from them. But it's, and it's sort of now as I've gotten older, I understand why there's less and less older athletes as you move through the age groups, because all these issues are gradually creeping up.

on them. So for me, I have reduced my training intensity. I do a couple of hits a week, but they're short. So everything else is in that low and I've reduced the volume as well. Because I want to be able to still be doing what I'm currently doing when I'm 80. It's such a big part of my daily life is my exercise.

Paul Warloski (47:53)

and

Paul Laursen (47:56)

Yeah, I mean, think I just like the key question, Peter, okay, knowing this is going on, what are the key things that the aging athlete listening might be able to do to curtail this, to curtail their risk ultimately? What are the key things that they should ⁓ focus on?

Peter Reaburn (48:18)

Yeah,

I've looked into this, Paul. And it's without a doubt, it tends to occur in the ⁓ more competitive, ⁓ older athletes. And historically, those older athletes were the ones that used to do threshold training, you know, the big sets or the long run, the long ride at threshold. It seems to be that the long, the high end, long, high intensity

long duration stuff. And if you've got a history of ⁓ heart cardiac issues in your family, that's another risk. High blood pressure seems to be a risk. I'm very lucky. I have naturally low blood pressure. ⁓ So there are a few risk factors in there for me. It's one reason why I separate my intense workouts. I typically do those on a Wednesday morning for because it's

Convenient and Saturday morning I train with a group. So I tend to separate my intense work and the others is one zones one and two. I rarely do threshold work these days. If take swimming example, used to be 15 100s, you know, on a 130 time base. Now I'll do 10 100s, I'll do them on a 145 150 time base.

to maintain, it will be below threshold. It won't be at threshold. I just, you know, it's so important and the research is saying that intensity, too much intensity is the key as is too much volume. You combine those, you've got risk. So reduce the risk, less volume and reduce intensity. If you do intensity, separate them so you've got plenty of recovery.

Paul Laursen (50:09)

Yeah.

Yeah, that's really what Stephen kind of continuing on his thread. was saying similar and he hypothesized that it was due to just too many exercise tests throughout his life span as an athlete and just what you're sort of saying, probably too much ⁓ threshold, high intensity sort of experiments and yeah, the combination of the, you know, almost the

threshold ⁓ and time under threshold is probably the, know, a lot of strain on the heart ultimately at the end of the day that we have. But again, like you said, it makes intuitive sense if you can manage that ⁓ stress recovery cycle so that there are nice big spaces to allow the heart muscle to recovery between, you know, again, we're all guessing right now, but that makes some good intuitive sense, right? So we did a... ⁓

Peter Reaburn (50:58)

Yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Laursen (51:10)

We did our velocity hit session today, this morning. It's not like I should go and do that again tomorrow. ⁓ I should just have a few days kind of to recover. And then once I'm feeling good again, then I can hit the intensity again. So that's good.

Paul Warloski (51:27)

Peter, to wrap up and to sum up, if you could give advice to a 50-year-old athlete who wants to compete into their 70s, what would you say?

Peter Reaburn (51:40)

⁓ I think we briefly mentioned them all, ⁓ definitely listen to your body. ⁓ Try and remember the balance. And I think Paul and I, when we were having our chat.

month or so ago, you know, finding that balance, we'd be millionaires if we could find it and put it in a bottle, you know, when we're when we're a 50 year old athletes, when we're 70 year old athletes, we're still balancing relationships with social, we're balancing work, you know, interests is finding that balance is a key. But in terms of actual training, I, my

Paul Laursen (52:00)

Hmm

Paul Warloski (52:01)

you

Peter Reaburn (52:23)

experience and my knowledge says 50 year old athlete please endurance athlete or any athlete do weight training ⁓ work with a knowledgeable coach in that space because it is an art unto itself ⁓ and a science unto itself that the whole resistance training area

Periodize your training through a year, whatever your goal is, putting emphasis on your weakness. And as an older athlete, it should be definitely on strength. ⁓ And then just move the strength down and the endurance training up as you get closer to your goal. Stretch. Do flexibility training to maintain the range and the functional mobility.

work on functional mobility as well as your stretching. ⁓ Eat smart, put more emphasis on protein as you get older, spread the protein over the day with each meal and little snacks ⁓ and use the science of recovery smart. ⁓ Use your carbohydrate, your protein at the right time in the right amounts.

Paul Warloski (53:41)

you

Peter Reaburn (53:46)

Do all the little one percenters. Do the hot cold. Use compression garments. Use active recovery. There's a lot in there, Paul. But use the science, but use your own experience to get you to your goal. Listen to your body.

Paul Warloski (53:57)

Yeah

Paul Laursen (54:09)

Love it. Love it.

Paul Warloski (54:09)

Hmm. Yeah,

it's really, that's, it's good to hear that as you know, as an athlete who wants to continue into his 70s, you know, just to continue the strength training and the endurance training and eating well. I think that's an important message.

Paul Laursen (54:31)

100%. Peter, yeah, I just want to say before you wrap up, that, yeah, again, I will just mention Peter just gave another, there were kind of other pearls that he mentioned too on the Training Science Podcast. So if you pop over there, if you enjoyed this conversation with Peter, you're just an absolute wealth of knowledge, my friend, and we're so grateful to have you.

Paul Warloski (54:31)

Yeah, well, Doug.

Mmm.

Paul Laursen (54:57)

just offering advice to our everyday athlete here at the Athletes' Compass. Just a fantastic conversation.

Peter Reaburn (55:04)

Paul, I've been a fan of yours for a long, long time and we haven't seen each other face to face for many, many years, but I've followed your career and I'm a huge fan of you for the same reason, is you use the science, but you also practice what you preach. And I have enormous respect for people that practice what they preach and can bring the science and their experience to bear. And I see it as responsibility as I get older to do that.

I'm really quite honoured that you've asked me to be a part of it.

Paul Laursen (55:39)

Thank you, Peter. Yeah, appreciate those words,

Paul Warloski (55:40)

Thank you so much. ⁓

Marjaana Rakai (55:43)

Thank you.

Peter Reaburn (55:44)

Good luck to you all.

Paul Laursen (55:46)

Thank you.

Marjaana Rakai (55:47)

Thanks.

Paul Warloski (55:48)

Thanks for listening today to the Athletes Compass podcast. Take a moment now, subscribe, share, and let's keep navigating this endurance adventure together. Improve your training with the science-based training platform, Athletica, and join the conversation at the Athletica Forum. For Dr. Peter Reaburn, Marjaana Rakai, and Dr. Paul Larson, I'm Paul Warloski and this has been the Athletes Compass podcast. Thank you so much for listening.