The Instructor Podcast with Terry Cook talking with leaders, innovators, experts and game changers about what drives them.

Welcome to the Instructor Podcast.

This is a show that helps you become an even more awesome driving instructor and run a better business.

As always, I am your splendid host, Terry Cook and I'm delighted to be here.

Even more delighted that you have chosen to listen because we are back with a brand new season based all around technology.

We're going to be looking at in.

Car tech, how to use it and how to teach it, as well as technology that we can be using as driving instructors.

And who better to have a sponsor than season nine than My Drive Time, the industry's premium award winning business management app.

Find out more@mydrivetime.co.uk and speaking of my drive time, today's guest is their founder, Dan Hill.

As we celebrate 10 years of my drive time in October of 2024, we take a look at the future of technology within the industry and why and how instructors can modernize.

We also look at some of the challenges that Dan and My Drive Time have faced over the last 10 years.

But just before we get stuck in, I want to point you in the direction of the instructor podcast website.

That's www.the instructorpodcast.com.

over there you can find everything we have to offer, including our entire back Algov episodes, free resources and more details on our paid membership which is currently a week's free trial.

Find out more@the instructorpodcast.com but for now, let's get stuck into the show.

And we're now joined by the founder of My Dry Time, Dan Hill.

How we doing, Dan?

Wonderful, thank you.

Terry, how are you?

All about seeing your smiley face and chuffed that you have come along today because a little while ago you mentioned to me that it was the 10 year anniversary of my drive time in October of 2024 and I got rather excited and said we need you on the podcast straight away because we're doing the tech season in in October, November and December.

So thank you for joining us to to talk about my drive time and tech in the industry over the last 10 years.

And happy birthday.

Thank you very much.

I was hoping you would sing to me, but I'll, I'll take that.

You want to sing Take that?

No.

Well, probably we'd rather listen to Take that than you singing Happy Birthday to.

Me, but I would massively concur.

But how does it feel 10 years in the industry?

I'm grayer as a result and I think that I've Learned a lot about patience and tolerance within that 10 years that possibly I was lacking in before.

No, it's.

It's.

It's been a really long journey and we are nowhere near finished.

And I'm very excited about the next 10 years.

But, yeah, it's.

It's been lovely seeing change.

It's been frustrating dealing with those who want to try and deny change, but it's been lovely seeing those who want to embrace it and, you know, whether it is somebody using a smartphone for the first time and really benefiting from it all the way through to, you know, things like you and the instructor podcast and what you've done didn't exist 10 years ago.

So I think that there's certainly.

It's been wonderful looking back, actually.

And I think sometimes as humans, we don't spend time just taking a step back.

You know, San Harper would love this from a mindfulness perspective.

We don't spend enough time looking back at what our achievements are or have been.

And, you know, I'm very proud of what we've managed to bring to the industry.

Love the connections I've made with various people across the industry.

Some that I'm glad to have avoided, I guess, but definitely a lot that I'm very, very grateful for backing us and helping us in the early days, helping us understand the industry and, you know, alongside my wife, obviously, who's a driving instructor.

So, yeah, it's been great.

I mean, I'm a big one for change.

You probably know this.

And whether it's technology or coaching or client set of learning or.

Or whatever it might be, and I've been thinking about a lot recently, and I think there's a real delicate balance there because we don't just want to abandon the past.

I think, and I think that I've done that before where I've just gone, the technology's moved on.

Let's just ditch this.

Do you think that it is a balancing act?

Sometimes I don't think you can know where you're going unless you know where you've come from.

And I know that's kind of an old cliche, but, you know, I really believe it.

And I think when I look back at sort of technology advancement over the course of time, you know, evolution, human evolution is unstoppable.

And technology exists to make that evolution smoother, more productive, faster, easier, all of these things, right?

Technology is undeniable.

It's everywhere we look.

I quite often get people say to me, oh, you know, I'm real technophobe, and I Don't do technology.

And I sit back and I say, so, so how did you make your toast this morning?

Did you do it over an open fire?

Did you go out and get the sticks and the stones to light the fire in order to, you know, to having ground your bread in order to make your toast?

No, no, I put it in the toaster.

Mike.

There's a prime example of technology helping humans to evolve the way they make toast, which I know is a silly example, but I think that actually if we all just stopped and looked around at everything that we surround our life with.

Everything is technology driven, right?

Everything is technology.

You could argue that a ruler, plastic ruler, is technology because it makes drawing lines easier and it helps to measure things.

And I think that culminates in an astonishing thing that I saw last night when I watched back the video of the starship, of Elon Musk's starship landing back down to Earth and being caught in chopsticks on a massive tower and just thinking, I don't even understand how that's become possible, but it's become possible because of human ingenuity and because technology allows us to push new boundaries.

And yes, may not quite be quite as sexy and dramatic in our industry as it is in the space industry, but, you know, it really brought home to me.

So, yeah, I think we can look back, I think we can learn lessons from, from what we've done, where we've been.

But I don't really want to dwell too much on the past, Terry.

I look at it and go, it was great.

It's got us to this point now.

What can we do next?

That's what I care more about, really.

I think just to kind of wrap up this point, I think that what I was referring to as an example would be something like reflective logs.

So on my drive time, you know, you have the opportunity to have reflective logs on there for lessons and stuff like that.

But for me personally, if I am doing a reflective log or some sort of journaling, I need to do it in a.

In a personal fashion.

So I even need to write it down or record my voice.

Now, both of those are forms of technology.

You know, you've got a pen or you've got a, like recording on my phone.

That's the way it works for me.

If I type it out, it doesn't have quite the same impact.

So I think that's what I'm referring to in that there is space for technology and there is space to move on, and we should be embracing change and we should be giving as many of this future technology as much space as possible.

But like if, I'm not saying we'd do this, but if the, if the eradicated paper, I would lose that ability to journal in a way that works for me.

Does that make sense?

I think it does.

I think you know, your quite right that you know, even, even though obviously my drive time is a technical solution and I'd love everybody to be using it.

I certainly would love people who are currently using paper to record their data on, you know, to be using it.

There has to be a need, there has to be a benefit to doing it.

And you know, sometimes people find that if you just want to scribble a quick note, quick shopping list or quick note, or you want to draw a quick picture or something, paper and pen are easier.

It's a 1900 year old technology.

We still use it today because it still has a very vital, important and effective role within what we do.

But that doesn't mean that we should look at it and go, okay, well we shouldn't look to move on from paper.

We should always, I think be looking to expand.

We should always be researching, searching for something that can make a given solution better.

But be willing to turn around and say, you know what, we haven't found that yet or this particular solution that we think will work, won't and it's okay to fail when we do those, when we do that research and move on.

I think like for me, so I don't use a paper diary, but there'll be people out there that do like a paper diary.

And I don't think there's anything wrong with liking a paper diary.

But I think that what we should do is offer the opportunity for our customers to use something like my drive time.

So if you, if I, well, I use my drive time so I fill all that in for my learners and I've put all my stuff in there as well.

But I could also do a paper diary if I enjoy that.

But I'm providing that technological option to my customers.

I think, and I think that's the key thing, right is you are, you are providing a service to your customers that you want to be better than everybody else's service so that those customers come to you rather than going elsewhere.

And I think that's why you do it.

You know, if it was super easy and it suited you perfectly to use a paper diary, then that's, that's okay.

All right, fine, if you enjoy it, that's okay.

But it's not just about enjoying it, is it, it's about the other value add that you get from not using a paper diary.

The security of your data, the accessibility of it.

You know, you don't want to be carrying it around Tesco.

So somebody comes to ask you if you can have a lesson when you're in Tesco's or you get a message on your phone.

You don't need to be carrying it around with you.

From a GDPR perspective, it makes a difference in terms of the security of that diary, the data in that diary.

You don't have to, you know, enter somebody's name again and again.

If things change, it's much easier.

So I think there's a lots of other things.

It's not just about enjoying something, it's about, okay, is this going to give me the best possible outcome?

Is this going to help me achieve my goals quicker than using the alternative?

Yeah, I would fully agree and I like that approach and it's something I often forget is that, you know, because I don't use a paper diary, so I don't, you know, if someone asked me, I've got my phone in my pocket, I can sort out then.

So I forget those negatives sometimes because I don't use it.

So I'm glad you've said that.

But yeah, we're talking about change day and speaking of change, we planned how we're going to start this show and we've already changed it.

So let's come back because the first thing I wanted to ask you about today was it particularly my drive time because as we say, it's been 10 years in the industry and that's, that's a long time for, for a business or an organization to be a part of an industry, one that you weren't part of initially.

So for anyone that doesn't know, just tell us a little bit about my drive time.

Okay, so I've spent my whole career as a business analyst.

So essentially it means trying to solve problems or, you know, improve processes, typically with technology.

That's, that's really what my career is all about.

My wife qualified as a driving instructor in 2008 and when she did, accountancy firm sent her a watch of paper records in the post and even back in 2008, which is, you know, nigh on 15.

Almost 20 years.

No, not 20 years, let's just go with 15.

You know, even 15 years ago was just, it was, I felt it, I thought it was absurd.

So I set to sitting down and creating a system that would help her initially with her finances, just to make sure that, you know, as that she could record her income and expenditure as she went, so that at any given time she could look at that record and she could see in an instant, because it's digital, she'd be able to see in an instant how much money she'd made and how much she needed to plan for tax.

But of course, if you're going to record money you're receiving from the student, you might as well record information on students.

And if you're going to do that, you might as well record how they use the time they've bought via lessons.

And then obviously that leads to diary management.

So my drive time basically was formed to help my wife to be an effective business manager.

It's one of the things that I've noticed in this industry is that a lot of PDI trainers, be them individuals or the larger sort of driving schools, tend not to focus very much on explaining to a driving instructor that they are a small business and that as a business they have a duty of care to the data that they record as a result of their business.

Right.

And ultimately, people that are running businesses need to know things.

They need their data to tell them things that helps them to make better choices.

You know, should I market in this town or should I market in that town?

You know, has this student used more time than they've paid for?

You know, am I double booked?

Or has this.

Is this student nearing test standard or.

And beyond?

And you know, there's lots of things that these kind of digital systems can help instructors know.

Right.

And I wanted that for my wife.

I wanted her to be savvy.

Right.

Business savvy.

And a lot of PDI trainers don't really teach this.

And that's an area that, you know, my drive time to be addressing in the next 10 years is making sure that instructors have all of the tools that they need to be an effective business.

Because, you know, I'm never going to be a PDI trainer.

I'll leave that to other people to teach you, Terry, how to be an amazing instructor.

But I can teach you how to be an amazing business owner that sells instruction as its service.

Does that make sense?

And I think sometimes a lot of people struggle to split their service they deliver, which is driver tuition from themselves.

You know, they.

I'm a driving instructor.

No, you're not.

You're a guy who runs a business.

You're a business owner that delivers driving instruction.

So my drive time really came about to solve that for Joe, my wife and Then off the back of that, just kind of started doing a bit more research, realized that actually there was very little in the industry that would help instructors in a, in a way that I felt that they needed help.

I got some amazing help from the likes of Lyn Barry, who at the njc, which is why I'm now essentially part of the governing committee with them.

Really all started with Lyn being willing to give up her time to help me to learn the nuances and details of the industry.

Paul Kaddick, who used to be the editor of the ADR News back in the day, before it was intelligent instructor, it was another guy who gave up his time.

And one of the things I've loved about this industry actually is the, you know, people who can do really do, you know, they really help.

They're really willing, like, you know, giving up their time and helping people to try and succeed.

And I think that's kind of where I wanted to run with this.

I'm like, if I can help my wife with all of her diary management and her money management and her student management and lesson management, if I can help her, then why can't I help all of the other 39,999 driving instructors that will face exactly the same problem that she had?

So that's where it kind of started.

I sold my house, I left my job, managed to convince my business partner Michelle to leave her job and come on board with me.

We've grown from the ground up organically.

We launched back in 2014, October 2014.

And yeah, we've grown organically because I didn't want seed money, I didn't want investors coming in and telling me what to do, you know, to kind of steamroll the industry like we see quite a lot of people do, you know, they come in with loads of money and grand ideas, and it's like, you know, it's all about the money.

And the way that I work and the business I run is that the money takes care of itself.

If you focus on things that are more important than that, and that is efficiency, that is professionalism.

You know, an instructor turning up outside a student's house looking professional and delivering a professional service.

And a lot of that comes down to the way that data is recorded and then used and shared with students.

Right.

So that's kind of where it came about.

My Drive Time was initially about business management.

I think over the years, up until Covid, we focused on that rather than lesson delivery and learning.

My Drive Time 2 was launched last year, a two year project that turned into a five year project, really.

And my Drive Time 2, the new version of our app, is game changing in my opinion, because it sets.

Not just because necessarily what it does today, although it does some cool things today.

It's not just about today.

It's about, I think, setting deeper roots, deeper foundations for our app so that it's able to do more moving forward.

So I always say to people that our original version, my Drive Time one, you know, that we launched originally, it did some great things well, but the foundations were only deep enough to support two stories of a building, whereas the foundations of my drive time two are deep enough to support 20 stories, you know, and that's important for us because moving forward in the next 10 years and all the things that we want to do for instructors and students require that level of foundation I've been going on.

So I'm just going to stop there and let you speak.

Well, I'm curious, thinking about 10 years ago when you sold your house and quit your job and convinced your business partner to quit her job, would you do it again?

Okay, just give me a second.

Just think about it because actually, what do I do it again?

That's a really great question, Terry.

Through me, because actually, would I do it again?

Yeah, I think I would, yeah.

It's actually quite an emotional question.

It's quite an emotive question because, you know, when I think about all this stuff that I've given up, you know, all the things that my family's had to give up in order to get to this point, answering that question sort of gets me quite emotional, which is weird because I have not really thought about it before.

People, you know, people ask me if I'd stop tomorrow.

No, because we haven't finished our mission.

You know, I haven't fished, I haven't.

I haven't achieved what I want to achieve.

But, you know, would I do it again knowing now what I know then?

It's been really hard, actually.

But there's been some fantastic benefits to it.

You know, when I, when I get that one person come to me and go, dan, it's a lifesaver.

I don't know what I would do without this app.

It makes it all worth it.

But I think when you're a small business, it's very easy to get sucked in and get caught into the weeds of something and not necessarily turn back.

I remember speaking to a business mentor of mine years ago.

I think we had about 800 customers at the time.

And he said, and I was fretting about whether we could do this feature or that feature.

And he said to me, Dan, he said, do you ever just stop and take a look back?

And I think this is really important for all instructors actually.

You know, when they, for, you know, they're so bothered about how to deal with a specific situation that they forget about the decades of people that they've taught to be safe drivers on the road.

You know, they forget about that time when they see a student 10 years later with their kids or 20 years later and going, oh, you know, you can teach my kids.

You forget about that.

And this guy said to me, Dan, if we took every single of your, one of your customers and we put them in this room, it would fill out this room.

And actually taking a step back and thinking, actually, yeah, that's, that's quite a big deal.

And we created it from nothing really, just from an idea of needing to solve a problem and fill a gap in the market.

So, yeah, I think I would do it again, Terry.

But yeah, it's been a long journey, but I think now we're.

We spent 10 years learning a lot, we spent 10 years supporting people a lot.

I've been absolutely blown away by some of the loyalty that we've had from our customer base, especially during COVID and you know, and I feel very proud about the fact that we've been a flag bearer for this kind of app in the industry.

Of course they're sprouting up everywhere now and like, everyone thinks it's super easy to build an app, but it's not actually.

And it takes a lot out of you and I think if you want to do it properly, it does anyway.

But yeah, I'm significantly older and grayer for it, but I'll do it again because I've loved building and helping the industry and seeing it, you know, seeing it evolve.

I love the answer.

I must admit I had hair when I started as a driving instructor, so it does have that effect.

But do you think that maybe this is a difficult question for to answer?

I'm going to ask it anyway.

Do you think that the industry appreciates the impact you've had?

I think that's good question.

I don't know.

I'm not really one for glowing around Trumpet.

I don't really know.

All I can do is go on when, like say when somebody comes up to me like they did at the Expo, for example, and they'll come up and be, oh, you know, really grateful.

Before I was using pen and paper and it was always such carnage and I took ages during the evening and started using your app and it's really helped.

And you know, I know it sounds cliche, it sounds really twee, but that boost it gives you when you get that kind of feedback like I'm sure you get when you're like, you know, you see a student three years after they pass and like, do you know what?

Learning Tribe's amazing, Terry?

I'm really confident now and it helped me get this job and, and you know, and I've, I've got.

My girlfriend's in the next town I can go and see or whatever it might be.

That's what matters.

You know, for me, it's not about the money.

The money takes care of itself if you really care and are passionate about what you do.

So, you know, that's, I think that's for me, what I care most about.

I'm sorry if I'm going off the piece and answering your question, but yeah, I don't know.

To be honest, I think what I've tried to do is not just make it about my drive time and about trying to build our numbers.

You know, we've done a lot of work with, I don't know, being on the governing committee of the ADI and JC for example.

I've loved that.

And I did it because they needed help and because they asked me if I would come and help based on the relationships I've built up.

I'm the only non driving instructor on the governing committee and I'm kind of proud of that, A little bit cautious of it.

Some people have, you know, called us out on it and said, oh, you know, I thought it was just instructors for instructors, like, yeah, but instructors don't necessarily have any, you know, a comprehensive skill set in every single aspect of running an organization.

So I was very pleased with that.

You know, written four years of articles for the Intelligent Instructor, appeared on your podcast a few times.

I helped Road Safe with their ADAS project, which I really enjoyed.

The Honest Truth.

We built the app for the Honest Truth because, you know, it pained me to see Oli Taylor giving out paper records and people having to deliver trees on paper.

So we, you know, so we've been working on their app with them now for a few years, you know, big learner relay as well, building the app for that during COVID when they couldn't get out and do the relay.

And we built an app that allowed us to draw the big map of Pudsey, you know, the big Pudsey picture on and doing that kind of work.

Has been amazing.

But I've got to be honest, Terry, I generally don't know whether the industry appreciates what I've done.

I think maybe.

Maybe we've got a long way to go, because I don't think the vast majority of the industry ever really surface or ever come out of the shadows to really engage with people like you and I who serve the industry and who try to benefit it.

I guess with the work we do, a lot of people just live in the shadows.

You know, they go about their business and they're.

They're very much an, you know, isolated people.

And that's one of the biggest challenges we've got, I think, moving forward, technology or not, is how do we engage an entire industry to, you know, how do you get more people to the Expo?

How do you get more people listening to the podcast or reading articles on things, you know, being members of the njc, how do you do that?

Not a problem for your listeners because they're already doing it.

They're listening, but it's.

Yeah.

So I don't know.

Is the answer.

Is the honest answer.

Don't think I'll ever know.

I mean, you spoke then about one of the challenges you faced, and you spoke earlier on about some of the hardships and what you've done.

What are some of the big challenges you've faced over the last 10 years?

Do you know what I think the biggest challenge is?

Apathy.

Because there are a lot of instructors in the industry who are very kind of quite negative, apathetic.

You know, they're just like, meh about things.

And, you know, when you come in with enthusiasm and you come in with a drive and an energy to want to make change as you yourself do, I think that when you're then hit in the face with that, you know, sort of like, I want to talk to you about this, and we can make real inroads and I can help you with X, Y and Z.

And then they just turn around and go.

And you just think, oh, it's just, you know, already you want to.

A losing battle.

But I think what I've found over the last 10 years is there is a slow move.

Obviously, you know, my battle is trying to convince people to stop using pen and paper and to start, you know, recording, you know, recording their information into a digital system, whether it's ours or not.

To be honest with you, at this point, I don't really mind as much as I just wish people would stop using paper.

I hope everybody would choose us because they know what we're about and they learn what we do and why we do it.

You know, I'd hope that people would decide to trust us with their business, but even if they don't, just not using paper.

And that's probably been the biggest challenge.

Our biggest competitor is paper, right?

Because it's easy and we've all been using it since we were a year old.

So people just pick up and go, oh, just, you know, I'll get a paper diary.

It doesn't help when you know the biggest, you know, one of the biggest associations in this industry still promotes paper diaries.

I'm like, it's 2024.

How is that even something that an association that is quite influential is promoting the use of paper diaries?

I just don't get it.

And that's, that's, I think the biggest challenge, Terry, is getting people to listen, getting people to care, getting people to ask questions because it never hurts to ask, you know, and so if people turn around to me, oh, I'm a bit of a technophobe, I don't know, I think I'll just stick with my paper diary.

And I just think, okay, but if you knew what I knew, you wouldn't.

And the only way I can tell you what I know is if you're willing to listen with an open mind and learn about how different solutions can help you be a better instructor.

You know, save more time to earn more money.

All these things which to me seem like an absolute no brainer.

So that's been the biggest challenge, has just been dealing with the apathy.

And we're just taking a brief pausing of a shout out to a few.

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To find out more, use the link in the show notes or head to the Instructor podcast.com But for now, let's.

Get stuck back into the show.

I do think it's worth considering that I know you probably know this, but.

Everyone saw a different chapter out there.

Everyone's a different Chapter of life.

You spoke earlier, you mentioned about, you know, 10 years on, you're a more patient and tolerant person.

Well, you know, maybe this conversation is different five years ago or seven or eight years ago.

So as much as I agree with you, I do think we should be moving on from paper diaries.

I kind of, I accept that not everyone's at that stage yet.

But I also get what you mean about the apathy thing.

I mean, for me, I almost would prefer negativity because at least it's an opinion to the meh aspect.

You know what, that's absolutely spot on with that.

I'm like, literally, I wrote a note earlier when I was preparing for this and I said that, you know, one of the biggest challenges is people's reluctance to even research and investigate and explore and learn about what's available and the alternatives there are.

You know what I loved about nearly sort of 1400 people going to that expo is that that is somebody getting up on a Sunday morning and deciding that they want to go and better themselves.

They want to learn more, they want to know more.

And I don't mind if somebody's willing to spend, and I'll set this challenge out to anyone who's listening.

I don't mind spending two hours of my time in an evening or a day or whatever showing them what we do and explaining not just, oh, here's a diary, here's how you add an entry, but why you use these systems, how it benefits you and your students, right?

If somebody comes off that call after, you know, an hour or two, whatever, speaking with me, and they say, do you know what, Dan?

Really appreciate your time, but I'm just going to stick with the way I am.

You know what?

No problem with that.

I'll shake your hand and say on you the merry way.

Thank you for at least giving me the opportunity.

But there's too many people out there who don't take that opportunity that's presented to them.

And I think that's a travesty if I'm being honest.

You know, stick with your opinion, but be open minded enough to listen to other people's because you never know when those other people's opinions might be better than your own.

And I think.

But I think part of the problem as well, though, Terry, is the demographic of our industry is maybe, I don't know, let's say 35 to 65 year olds.

And historically being a driving instructor is something that you might do later in life when you want to leave the, you know, the Argy Bargy.

Of the city or, you know, you've had a, you know, you've done some other job for a while and you just want to, I don't know, it seems to a lot of people they get into it because they want the easy life and you know, they want to be their own boss and they want to earn a decent amount of money, which is absolutely fine.

There's nothing wrong with that.

But I think that, you know, because of that demographic, because so many people are older, you get a lot of naysayers, a lot of people who are reluctant to change because they're just, they just feel like it's too much effort.

But the problem, you know, and maybe for some it is, you know, if you're a year or two away from retirement and making tax digital isn't going to affect you, then the likelihood is you are going to turn around and just say, yeah, do you know what?

I'm just going to stick with what I know and I'm going to see out the last couple of years.

I've got no problem with that because that is a genuine reason, you know, that's a genuine reason.

Our first customer was a 64 year old lady who was ready to embrace change.

And she spent an hour and a half on a Sunday with me on the phone talking about all these challenges she had and we went through them and she, and she used our software and she stayed with us, you know, until she retired.

And, and that for me is, you know, when you say about all the things you've achieved, what's been good about it, it's stuff like that, you know, knowing that she had the willingness to just open her ears and listen and take it on board and realize we have a lovely lady, an older lady in Ireland and she's, you know, one of our Irish customers.

And she said to me the other day, she said, you know what, I went to the test center and I show all these people the app that I use and they're just confounded by like it's some kind of piece of magic.

And I'm like, it's great, but, but they wouldn't think it was magic if they just spent some time talking to us and learning.

And I thought, I find it a bit of an oxymoron that so many instructors are not willing to learn, even though that's the service they sell.

They sell learning, but they're not willing to learn themselves.

And I think that's a real shame.

I agree.

I'm holding back from going too far down that rabbit Hole, because that could completely make a different episode.

But one of the things you did mention a few times there was the new apps popping up, if you like, and you spoke about podcasts and the expo, this kind of stuff.

And it feels like there's so much in the industry at the minute, I suppose specifically if we talk about the apps, the expo recently.

So every time I go to some kind of convention, another app there.

Interesting.

Your thoughts on the idea of competition?

You know, are we running the risk not just with the apps, but as well as everything.

But are we running the risk of there being too much?

No, because I think that market forces take care of that and I don't.

You know, I think if you go into a market with a product that is ethical and well, you know, well positioned and quality, then, you know, if your position in the market is one at that end of the scale, then you should expect to do well.

I think that, you know, yes, we were the first of our kind and others have come along since.

And some of them, I have a lot of respect for what they're trying to do, others absolutely don't.

Because I think the problem these days with software development, you know, we're talking about apps, right?

The problem with software development is 20 years ago when people had computers with CD ROM drives, you know, the way that they would buy software was to go to a shop, get a box that had a big pretty picture on, take it home, put the disc in, and it had to work.

So the way that software.

So people would test their software within an inch of its life before it ever hit the shelves, because they knew they couldn't sell a piece of software and expect boxes and boxes of CDs to come back.

The way that software development works these days is completely flipped on its head where people build really bad, really badly thought out software in order to try and.

And they put it out in the market and it's buggy, glitchy, you know, there's no history or story or passion or real vision behind it.

Quite often they copy what other people do and, you know, ultimately they end up putting something out which is lackluster, but they put it out there because it's a bit like fishing, really.

I guess it's a bit like fishing.

They put something out there that's cheap and easy and nasty to build in the hope that they get a bite.

And if they get a bite, then that sometimes that then can give them the, the incentive to want to make it better.

I don't like that approach.

If I'm being honest, I'm a traditionalist.

I like my software to be released having been thoroughly tested and work.

You know, no software in the world is perfect.

You know, not even Microsoft or Google or Apple have bug free software.

But you can do your damnedest to make sure it's as good as it can be.

So now I don't mind these apps coming out.

I just want them to be high quality because when they're not and you know, you can have the worst app in the world, but if you've got a massive marketing budget and you can go out there and tell everybody it's great, then everybody buys into it and they're like, oh yeah, look at this app, it's great.

And then that's their standard of acceptability is this really awful buggy app.

And then it's frustrating when you just like, yeah, but if you knew what we did, then you'd realize.

But I don't mind, I don't mind the competition because I think it makes us all stronger, I think it makes us all better.

And I think it's really important that people who have vision and ideas, innovation that they keep delivering, you know, and the ones that are good will survive and the ones that aren't, won't.

You've got to let the market take care of that.

No, no, I get that.

And like you said, there'll always be issues with tech.

You know, if people could see the issues I've had today with Zoom.

But even with that, if anyone listening to this is thinking about our embracing tech and whatnot, you're listening to this probably on a smartphone that's been recorded over Zoom.

I mean, you're down in London somewhere down, you know, in miles away recording this.

Without tech I wouldn't be able to do this.

So I think if you're listening to this and thinking, I don't want to ditch my paper diary, it's like, think about what you're doing right now.

But I don't want to get too vines that I'll leave that bit up to you.

What, what I do want to ask because we have spoken quite a bit of it about ADI today and I'm always reluctant to generalize.

So I put this caveat on that I appreciate I'm generalizing what, how you found working with adis.

Has anything surprised you or, you know.

How have you found ADIs generally?

I think when I remember vividly, remember when we were just launching in back in, I think it's like early 2014 it would have been and I remember Going on a Facebook group and saying to people, oh, you know, we've got this new app.

We're really excited about it.

We think it's going to make a big difference.

And this one lady wrote a comment, just says, yet another person coming in, trying to take money from the industry.

And it really, it floored me because I just thought, you don't even know me.

You don't know my story.

You don't know why I'm doing it.

Now, we're all familiar with keyboard warriors who have had a bad day and they want to take it out on the Internet by coming home and writing rubbish, right, without really giving it a second thought.

We all know that exists.

But back then, 10 years ago, that was kind of part of my introduction.

But that was then balanced and, or counterbalanced, I guess, by the likes of Lyn and Paul and people that were willing to give up their time in order to help me.

Even at the time, one of our, I guess one of our, you know, the competitors that we would have had at that point spent hours talking to us.

We met them for dinner because it was all about, okay, well, you know, we're competing, but what could we do together?

And I have to say that for all of the naysayers and the bitter people and the people who just, you know, make it their mission just to moan about the dvsa, you know, those kind of people, for every one of Those, there are 10 people out there who are just wonderful, who are doing it for the right reasons, who are like my wife, right?

They get in the car and they want to go and make people's lives better, right?

They want to support people learning to drive.

And in the same way that I want to support people running their business better.

So I've loved working with ADIs.

And I mean, actually, when we, when Covid hit, actually, it was, it was a real pivotal moment for us because of course, all of a sudden all of our customers overnight are unable to work and they don't need necessarily to have a record keeping system in order to manage.

And we expected the worst.

We expected everybody to cancel their subscriptions with us and we'd be out of business, you know, a month later.

And I think probably maybe 90 people sort of, you know, understandably, sort of panicked and canceled all their direct debits and things like that, which I understand.

But, you know, I'm not afraid to say that when we said to people that, you know, we wanted, we didn't actually say what we got was an influx from our users of people saying, you know what?

Even though I'm not out there working, I'm still going to pay for my subscription because I want you guys to stick around.

I want you to be there when we get back out on the road.

And, you know, we set up this sort of what we call the coronavirus deferment program, which allowed people to carry on using the app.

And we just built up their subscriptions so they could pay it back later once they were back out working again.

And I think that helped.

But, God, the amount of people, Terry, who were just willing to carry on supporting us.

And it changed my view of the industry.

And I was literally.

I was in tears, couldn't talk about it because they just backed us and they were there for us.

And I think that, yeah, that changed my opinion.

It renewed my faith in the industry that we serve.

Made me want to help these people be better and be better than the naysayers and the bitter people and the apathetic people and the people who just, you know, want to close their ears.

It made me want those people, our customers, to be better than their competition so that they could then go on and thrive.

So I think earlier on, when I asked you about, are you appreciated by the industry?

I think that answers that in at least part.

It may not be the entire industry, because you said a lot of the industry shuts the curtains, don't want to see the new stuff, but there's definitely a section there that does.

But I want to know what's next.

So without giving away too many of your trade secrets, Dan, what.

What do you think the future is for?

I suppose my drive time, but kind of diary apps, if you like.

And I appreciate that's trivializing what you do, but.

But that kind of technology in what's.

What's the future.

That my.

Like I said earlier, my ultimate goal is to educate.

And you can't educate everyone.

You know the old saying that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

And I get that quite a lot.

You know, I'll go and speak at a local association about technology in general or about my drive time or whatever, and you can tell the people that that will be because they sit there with their arms folded, leaning back, you know, thinking, why the hell are you wasting my time?

Because, you know, they don't really want to listen.

And.

And I get that.

But I think for those who do sit there going, do you know what?

I don't want to be sending out less reminders.

I don't Want to be writing up my notes on paper.

There must be a better way of doing it.

That's.

I want everybody to ask that question, is there a better way to do what I'm doing right?

And if you go out and you research and you find that, you know, and you're willing to give it a go, because the thing is, I can sit here and wax lyrical about how great my product is, as can everyone else, but I just say, look, you will know what's right for you.

You, Terry yourself, you've looked at lots of alternatives, and I think, do you know what?

You'll know what fits right for you.

You'll know what's important to you in a system.

So try them all.

You know, sometimes I see somebody say on Facebook, oh, what app would you use for diary management?

And you get everybody, you know, saying which one they would use.

And I say, that's all great, because of course, if you're paying for something, then you're going to back it because you'd be a bit of a moron, bit of an idiot if you bought something and used it but didn't like it, right?

So of course you're going to say it's great.

But I would say to anyone listening, whether you're, you know, satisfied with the app, even if you're satisfied with my drive time and, you know, look at everything.

Because actually, if you look at everything, it will either reinforce your decision that you've made the right choice or it will give you reason to want to think.

Actually thought this was great, but I don't think it is as great as I, you know, it's not as great as I thought.

This one's better.

So I want people to be more disruptive.

I want people to be more willing to get up and lose this apatheticness and lose this meh attitude and go out there and search, do training, join associations, use digital solutions because they are better for you people.

That's the reason they exist.

If they didn't make your life better, they would not exist, right?

So I want people to stir things up, want to change, want to be better.

Because ultimately what I want is for the job that you guys all do for this industries that we serve to stop being considered as an industry and start being considered as a profession.

And you can't be a profession.

You can't.

It's difficult to be a professional business owner.

You could be a professional instructor, you know, so before you get loads of comments, I'm not suggesting that if you use paper, you're not a professional instructor, but I am saying that actually out there, there's no other industry in this world that uses paper to record sensitive management data other than this one.

None.

If you went into your accountant, if you had a choice between two accountants, Terry, right.

And you had the choice between one that was doing your accounts on a computer using spreadsheets and having it all calculate for you, or one that was going to calculate your accounts on an abacus, which would you choose?

We all know what the answer is.

It's a no brainer, right?

So all I'm saying to people is I know it's comfortable, I know it's safe, I know it's easy, but it's not the best.

So my hope is that even if people don't use my drive time, that they will use something and that eventually they'll realize that my drive time is the best of those things and therefore come to us.

So I think in the future, that's my hope is that people, and that people stop saying that they're technophobes.

I get that a lot, right?

People go, oh yeah, I'm not very good with technology, I'm a real technophobe.

And I say, yeah, but you're driving around in a car that runs on a hundred million lines of code and you are able to control that car and teach somebody else how to control it.

So you're not a technophobe.

Otherwise you'd be walking everywhere, right?

What you are is maybe a little bit lazy and you don't really feel like you've got the time and the effort to go out there and try something or phone me and book an hour long appointment to talk about what we do, you know, and that's on you.

Ultimately, if you want to be lazy, you're not going to achieve very much.

But I think what I'm loving actually, and what I'm noticing actually recently is a lot of people are coming into the industry now.

A lot of new instructors coming into the industry and they've come from working environments or life where apps and smartphones and computers are every day.

So they don't come in and go, oh, actually I might use paper.

They come in and immediately say, right, what's out there for me in software form that's going to help me run it?

They expect it and that's great.

I like the answer.

I'm going to touch on one thing and I just want to give my, my example of this because I like that you said it, that you want people to try stuff and there's almost a bigger that doesn't care if they go to my drive somewhere elsewhere.

And I kind of like that because it's an approach I've always taken with this podcast.

You know, I've always promoted give a podcast.

I think I've had pretty much everyone else on in the industry that has a podcast to promote them.

The idea being that if they don't like mine, they'll find this one and then at least they get in some kind of trading that the same with my paid membership.

You know, I've promoted the overpaid memberships because at least if they don't like mine, they can go elsewhere.

And I think that it just shows that you've, you have got the industry at heart.

And, and yes, you're human.

Of course you would have people want to you and of course you believe you've got the best product because if you didn't believe you had the best product, you probably wouldn't do it.

But I like the fact that you're putting out there and telling people to try, because that's something I do and I think it's, it's overlooked sometimes.

But I do want to move on from this because I want to talk a bit more around technology in general because one of the things I asked you was to come up with some of the changes you've seen in the last 10 years and some of the changes you haven't seen in the last 10 years that you would like to see going forward.

So I'll let you take this away.

What have you got for us here?

Okay, so I think the first one probably just, I don't want to labor the point, but is people moving from paper and manual based record keeping to digital record keeping.

So I've seen that the speed of that increasing, which is amazing to see I think actually as well people being more aware of their responsibilities as a business owner, as a small business owner, not just a driving instructor.

What I mean by that is I think it caught a lot of people by surprise.

A lot of the old guard, especially with COVID when they weren't able to get the support payments because they did a lot of their dealings in cash and they didn't, you know, they didn't declare a lot of their earnings.

So obviously when, when the HMRC turned around, said, okay, well you're, if you're only earning that, we're only going to pay out based on that.

And I think that took a lot of people by surprise and people were like, oh my goodness, actually, maybe I Need to stop using these kind of archaic almost, you know, I don't want, don't want to use the word because I'll just get criticized.

But you know, old methods that it really showed that actually it can come back to bite you if you're not careful.

People always say to me, I'd never lose my paper diary until they lose their paper diary.

And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, my world's ended.

Because every single piece of the information about their business was in that paper diary.

But you know, lo and behold that you suggest that they might lose it because absolutely they won't.

So, yeah, people moving from paper definitely, you know, and moving on to business bank accounts and things like that and properly recording their data.

Because actually if you record data well, Terry, it can tell you things.

It can tell you things that you wouldn't otherwise know.

And that's what I think, you know, that we did pretty well.

So I think, yeah, there's more mobile devices now and more choice.

You know, looking back 10 years ago, there was probably one or two sort of good Android tablets and there was the iPad.

Now, you know, I hate to break it to you, but you don't have to spend £400 on an iPad in order to be able to access the Internet on a mobile device and play games and be productive and use my, my drive time record video and all that kind of stuff.

You don't need to these days.

There's so many more, you know, options on the market.

But like with electric cars, I guess, same thing.

Electric cars are just an evolution of fossil fuel cars.

You know, we're all willing to look at that.

You know, combustion engine cars were an evolution from horse and cart, you know, horse and cart from walking.

I mean, this is, this is, this is the way really everything should be is what's out there that could make my life easier.

Right.

Customers demanding more modern solutions as well.

You know, I think what I've seen is that what my instructor is telling me is that students laugh at their mates who are with an instructor that's giving them paper record cards, for example, because it's just old.

It's just an old way of working.

And students want everything on apps.

So going back to what you were saying earlier, it's really important that you cater for what your customers want.

It's not just about what you want and about what you're comfortable with, what your customers comfortable with.

Because those who are giving out paper are going to end up finding that their diaries dry up because their Mates want to go with the instructor that's using digital solutions.

So I've seen a lot more of that.

I just want to touch it in there because I do want to kind of harp back on something I said earlier in that I said we need to care for these people.

But I also think there, and this is just.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on this genuinely, whether it's worth having a block of 10, you know, cards, progress cards in, in your car so that when we get that one student in a hundred that does want the paper, which is 1 in under, like 1 in 100, want the paid cash, to me, very rare, does it happen we can actually cater for them as well?

Yeah, I think this is a real difficult one because I think on one hand my answer to you would be, and initially my answer to you when it pops into my head was, yeah, absolutely, you should cater for whatever what anybody wants.

You should be flexible and versatile enough to be able to give your customers what they need.

But on the other hand, and I say this to a lot of our school customers who are looking after multiple instructors, and they say, you know, you can give your customers options and flexibility, but as soon as that starts impacting your business and your ability to run well, then that's a problem.

Because if nine of your students are in my drive time, Terry, and all of their payment history and all of their lessons and their progress is all in this one place, that consistency has a value for you, right, because the muscle memory kicks in and you know where to find things and it's all in one place and everything to do with your business, you know, can be, can be shown in just a few numbers.

But as soon as you have outliers who use paper, then you don't have that data in the same system in the same way.

So, you know, I, I would always say, look, go for uniformity, go for consistency, go for a way that streamlines your business and that is continuity and consistency and uniformity.

Right.

If you offer 10 different ways to skin a cat, it's going to, you know, it's going to take you a long time to skin cats.

Right?

I don't know I feel about that analogy.

But I mean, look, the only thing I'll say with that is I could imagine me doing that, but with my drive time, I would still put everything on there.

It's just they wouldn't use the app, so all my data would still be on there.

It's just I'm accommodating one person by giving them A piece of card because that's what they want.

Or maybe they don't even want to download an app or have anything like that, which I can still use my drive time or you know, insert up here and my drive time, yes, I can still use my drive time for me, that student doesn't have to use it for them.

But the other 99% of students I've got that year will use it for them and see the benefit.

And the bulk of them, as you said, will prefer that massively to pen and paper.

Now you are right and to be fair, we've got a lot of customers who, you know, might teach kids who don't have access to smartphones things.

So it's a bit less relevant for them.

And of course, you know, we need to try and cater for that as well.

I just prefer to try and encourage people to go down, you know, a singular streamline route, you know, so.

But yes, adapting to your customers requirements, don't see any problem with that as long as you are comfortable that it's not hurting your business, which in that particular scenario it's not hurting your business, it's just helping them.

And I got Dan Hill recorded saying you are right.

So that's good.

It's the last time it will happen, Terry.

So yeah, enjoy that.

I think I'm pretty good at editing.

Just to warn you, I think looking at other changes as well, I mean, just looking quickly talked a little bit earlier about this kind of instant gratification that people want out of apps that, you know, they want to download something straight away, they don't want to pay for it.

You know, free apps are really dangerous because, you know, if they're a game that you just want to play while you're on a, on a journey somewhere, it's no problem, right?

There's no vested interest in it.

But free apps where you are, you know, recording sensitive business data is quite difficult because if you're not paying for the app, then how it's the people that are making the app making the money.

They're not doing it for their health, they're not, they're not charity.

They're most likely using your data to make money through other means, which can sometimes be quite nefarious, or they're trying to sell you stuff either way or they're just trying to sell you to other people.

So I think, you know, we as a, as a, as a culture, we have this kind of pendulum effect with new things, right?

We, we swing from one extreme to another and then eventually we Settle in the middle.

And I think with that, it's people recognizing that, yes, you used to have to pay a lot of money for software.

Now there's a deluge of software that's available for free.

My hope is we'll come back to people recognizing that it's not about the cost of software, it's about the benefits as well.

Because only by measuring cost versus benefit can you arrive at a value proposition.

Can you know, whether something is good, you know, worth having or not?

If you just look at the cost, can't do that.

And if, certainly, you know, if you just get blinded by free stuff, you know, each their own.

But, you know, good luck to you because it's just, it's not, it's not, it's not a great idea.

So that's that.

I think I am seeing, though there's a lot more of the kind of what I would class in.

Don't, you know, don't lynch me for this.

A lot more of the old guard that are cottoning on and are starting to ask questions.

I love helping somebody who's in their 60s, for example, to adopt new technology, new approaches over and above somebody who's maybe in their 30s, because I know they'll get it, you know, but the 60 year old who's, who's.

I love that I have so much respect for somebody who's not just resting on their laurels, who does want to learn new things.

So they're my absolute favorites.

They're the people I've loved helping the most.

Like our first customer was.

But then I think as well, in the last 10 years, it's the adoption of in car tech.

So, you know, dash cams and sat navs and, you know, every instructor should have a dash cam now because it's just, not only is it good for protection, but it's great for being able to record teaching moments that you can then share with your students, things like that.

So it's all about value add, right?

Yes.

You've got the dash cam just in case somebody hits you or for, you know, somebody cuts you up or whatever.

But actually make it a positive thing, use it as a proactive thing for that.

So a lot more, you know, that kind of modern technology.

So that's the things I've seen things that I haven't seen change yet.

Still too much reluctance to accept change.

The DVSA I've written down here as well, because I've repeatedly contacted the dvsa, I've been on, you know, panels with the Department of Transport to talk about the industry and what it can do to evolve to meet tomorrow's demand and tomorrow's needs from students and driving instructors.

And it's great being in those rooms and talking about all these amazing things we can do.

But they've got to start implementing them, they've got to start putting them in action.

And I think the DVSA is far too slow with this, with their tech personally, you know, I've literally offered help for free to help them solve problems that they've gone, oh yeah, that's great, thanks very much.

I've never heard from them again.

And I'm just, you know, I don't want to take it personally, but it's because a lot of these kind of public sector organizations are quite ring fenced.

They're quite difficult to sort of get past the door, you know, and I'll keep trying, I'll keep knocking it down, but things like test booking and, you know, bots out there, they're able to book all these tests and sell them for so much money and thing.

And I'm sitting there with Michelle, my business partner and just going, how is this even possible?

This should not be possible.

But their systems are very, very old and you know, such as the way of public finances, maybe they haven't really updated them.

So there's not enough change I think yet with the DVSA in terms of adoption of technology.

The DVLA are doing more, you know, being, being able to put your registration in and check your MOT and your insurance details and things like.

That's great.

And that's what we're really asking for.

It's like, can we just have controlled access to some information to help everybody?

Right.

And so, yeah, I'm banging that door.

I hope one day it will open more than it is at the moment.

And yeah, and the final thing I would say is, and it's not really tech based, Terry, but I think it's really important, I want to see a shift in, in the amount of help that driving instructors get with business management when they're training as PDIs.

Right.

I want people to be able to say, you know, we're developing a course to help, you know, like a Business 101 course to help, you know, to help trainers who aren't necessarily, you know, Elon Musk or Richard Branson to at least give their trainees a fighting chance when it comes to things like should you use your private bank account or a personal one?

Should you use systems like my drive time?

Should you, you know, how do you advertise and market?

Should you have a website?

All those kind of things.

So I haven't seen enough of that change yet.

But then, you know, be the change you want to see.

Right.

So it's up to us as well.

And when I look at my drive time moving forward, I want my drive time sphere of influence to expand beyond just record keeping and data management to being more, you know, able to serve all of the needs that a driving instructor has.

So they can just not have to worry about any of that and just focus on, you know, amazing driver training.

But I'm not going to give you any more secrets because they're trade secrets.

And yeah, you've got to be in the club to know what's coming next.

You are in the club, fortunately.

But yeah, I'm not going to put this out to the public.

Too many prying eyes.

I'm rarely in the cool club.

Rarely do.

You know what?

I really enjoyed talking to you today.

I think it's been interesting looking at the background and some of the behind the scenes and the structure struggles you've faced with my drive time and then obviously talking about tech afterwards.

I think it's been really interesting.

But I do just want to take a moment to thank you, first of all.

Well, first of all, for joining me on the show.

Always a pleasure having you.

Second of all, for doing my dance, which is the premium show we've started doing most months now, I would say, but fairly also for sponsoring for this.

Season of the podcast.

It's genuinely tough to have people the caliber of my drive time is sponsoring the show.

We've had bright, bright coach before and now we've got my drive time.

I just think.

I don't know.

I think that says something about where the industry is going as well.

The caliber of sponsors that can be attracted to a podcast, I think is great.

So, yeah, I just want to take a moment to thank you for that, Dom.

It's absolutely my pleasure.

I love what you do, Terry.

I want people to listen.

I want the message to get out there about everything you do, obviously not just this particular episode.

Um, so, yeah.

But yes, links for my drive time will be in the show notes, if anyone is interested, go and check that.

Or if you want to find out more, reach out to Dan and then you can have a chat room.

He said he'll talk to you.

So if you get a thousand messages on the back of this, Dan all wanted to chat, don't blame me.

But yeah, big thank you for joining me today.

It's been a pleasure as always.

Thank you Siri.

So a big thank you to Dan Hill there, not only for a really honest and thought provoking episode, but also.

For sponsoring the show.

I love that amazing businesses such as my Drive Time wants to be associated with the Instructor Podcast.

It really helps me with the running of the show and my drive time really do have an awesome product.

Check out mydrivetime.co.uk and if you enjoyed that recording with Dan.

He is a regular contributor to the Instructor Podcast Premium.

And if you ever wondered what we got going on over there, here's a few of our recent shows.

So we had the Top five Standards Check or Part three Myths with myself and Phil Cowley, but an expert session on the teaching and learning strategies with the ADI PDI Dr.

Lee Sperry.

Dan Hill joined us for the second edition of my Downtime and we looked at how to become more involved in the industry.

We had Lynn Barry join us for an episode of the Standards Check Checklist and we got Back to basics with Andy McFarlane of Bright Coaching.

We also had a conversation and Q and A with Chris Benstead on the teaching and learning strategies as well as four editions of my solo show the Instructor Unplugged.

And that was just in October.

So to become an even more awesome driving instructor, upgrade your CPD of a membership to the Instructor Premium.

Use the link in the Show Notes or visit the website.

That's www.the instructor podcast.com.

But for now, let's just keep raising standards.

The Instructor Podcast with Terry Cook talking with leaders, innovators, experts and game changers about what drives them.