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So for these reasons and others like I was going to ask you still staying on sort of the build a rent product is a great, sustainable, long term, great product.

Absolutely.

You know, we're also seeing or hearing about either, to your point, both demographics.

The younger sort of millennial Gen Z pre kids who maybe, well, either can't afford to buy a home because of the affordability issues or choose not to because they want flexibility.

And same for sort of the older baby boomer retirees who are like, you know what, we're going to sell our house in Phoenix.

We got a nice little nest egg.

We just want to rent from here on out.

We're going to take Winnebago and tour the countryside.

Right?

Beautiful.

Beautiful.

And so I think for all those reasons, it is a product type that's very interesting.

Yes.

Let's talk a little bit about operational efficiency technologies, some of the stuff you're doing at Yardy Matrix with your business intelligence and how that might help customers manage costs or increase some of their efficiencies.

What are you guys seeing on that?

Yeah, so I'm going to separate this in sort of Yardy Systems, you know, because I'm a division of Yardy Systems.

Yardi Systems is one of the largest property management software companies.

Software and services that help support people who own and manage commercial real estate.

And then I can talk about Matrix as a division of the company.

We're a relatively small division of the company.

But on the software side, the fact of the matter is that the requirement to reduce cost on an ongoing basis is critical.

Costs are, expenses have been increasing significantly, we hope and we do think that they're beginning to come down.

The rate of growth is beginning to come down, but labor costs are up 20%, materials costs and supply costs are up, obviously insurance costs are up.

Taxes are still rising.

So, you know, we track the expenses.

So expenses have still been going up.

So what happens when you want to provide a better customer experience that's less intrusive and you have expense pressures all over the place?

Well, you do adopt technology, right?

Technology.

You do that and so we have 40 modules that basically comprise every component of operating a multifamily property where you can basically have a foundation in the property management of record itself.

And then there's all these different modules that plug in from marketing to utility management, to procurement to insurance compliance and vendor management.

There's a gazillion of them, but all of which is driving the expense down, providing still very positive customer experience and focusing your labor on things that are uniquely consumer facing.

That's the issue is if you're going to have people focus them on actually having an impact, not on basically back end.

Yeah, that has no value fundamentally to the customer experience.

And so a lot of the customer acquisition, lease management, even a lot of the maintenance activity is being the back end of that is all being automated, driving down costs.

Now also inside of those, the new development of artificial intelligence is basically being just driven into those existing products.

So when it comes to procurement, there's like an AI bot that basically helps you buy stuff.

There's a big, big move on the customer acquisition side where or the thing we call a chat iq, which is really a chat bot that has replaced a lot of the initial call center costs and yielded to the leasing professionals a high likelihood leasing person who actually needs to see somebody.

So you can basically digitize the entire transaction for people who just don't want to see somebody and are willing to lease completely.

And we can verify their identity, we can take payments, you can do a virtual tour, you can do all the infrastructure, but there are people who actually want to see it and you can support them and that now you can increase the productivity of those leasing consultants and have fewer of them and have them more productive.

So that's a big deal.

And it also enables, I would say, some marginal marketing sources that otherwise wouldn't be cost effective to suddenly become cost effective, which is, which is helping on the sort of general.

Can you explain what you mean by that?

Well, you know, look, there may be, let's say some websites, right?

So let's.

There's a range of SEO, PPC and there's a whole range of these different sort of marketing channels.

So you may have a marketing channel which traditionally would have generated a lot of activity but very little yield, right?

And you'd say, look, I'm not going to advertise on that particular.

I may get an incremental one or two leases, but like all the crap I have to deal with to get to those one or two leases, the economics don't work, right?

But if the chatbot's dealing with all of that sort of sorting through.

And now you're only seeing the few people on site that actually will lease.

Suddenly that marketing source, that marketing channel becomes economically viable where before it wasn't.

So you're accessing more incremental demand because you're not paying the cost associated with the labor cost of clogging your pipeline to get, to get to the leases that you actually need.

And that gets rippling through every aspect of all the products.

Right.

Utility management, procurement and marketing and also moving all the payments.

So it's recurring revenue that's automated, that's already done.

So all that stuff is, you really have to drive the cost down.

But just, you know, Fred Smith at FedEx said this 40 years ago, as there's nothing new under the sun, you automate the routine, you humanize the exception.

That's what this is all about.

So when there is a problem, you get to a real person who can solve it, be empathetic, provide great service.

But all the, all the routine stuff should all be automated away.

And remember also it's harder to hire people in this labor market.

Harder to hire, harder to train.

You got to have a better technology backbone.

And the way the world works now is it's variable priced.

Okay.

So back in my day when I was running deals, we had large fixed cost systems.

Now they're all variable costs, variable cost systems.

Right.

So it ups, it moves up and down with your scale as an entity.

So because basically YARDI is the backend infrastructure that's bearing the sort of like fixed cost to keep the infrastructure up in place.

So you as an owner, operator or as a manager, you're only paying on a variable cost basis tied to your revenue stream.

It's a much better, much better sort of model.

Yes, we always joke, the yardi, let me guess, $2.50 per unit, whatever.

Right, right, right, right.

But it's a very good model and it works and we module after module.

Yes, it adds a lot of value.

Yeah.

And again Yardy matrix is the market intel module of Yardy.

And so we are also working on AI initiatives in our, you know, in our organization that are separate from what's going on elsewhere.

Right.

But again my whole system, my whole purpose for being is to save our clients time, help them make better decisions more quickly by doing a lot of the, the monotonous labor intensive work so that you as an investor are only focused on the things where you add value.

And a lot of the routine stuff is basically done for you.

And that's why?

Fundamentally, you trade money in order to get back time.

It's a basic trade, and it only works because I'm at scale and I can do things at scale, and then I can basically make an economic trade for my labor cost is less than your labor cost.

And that's how the economics work.

Yeah, no, makes perfect sense.

Yeah.

Most things do if they work.

Yeah.

Let's talk a little bit about, speaking of investors, about the investor side and capital flows into the business.

You bet.

Because we've been hearing for a long time that there's so much capital for multifamily on the sidelines.

Right.

Sitting on the sidelines.

Sitting on the sidelines.

I mean, are you seeing.

Because you mentioned earlier, and we're seeing it ourselves, you know, more movement.

Right.

More deals coming into play, starting to come in.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, for example, Jeff, we looked at a deal in Vegas a couple of weeks ago.

They had 30 offers on this deal.

30 offers, which I'm like, wow, exactly 15.

Best and final, by the way.

Okay.

Well, there's a fair amount of interest out there.

So there's a fair amount of that was in Las Vegas.

Right.

So I'm wondering what you're seeing, you know, is money, obviously there's a lot of money sitting on the sidelines still.

What's it going to take for that money to move?

You know, and kind of, where do you see that?

Where do you see the investment demand?

I mean, we know workforce housing is a great niche within the world of multifamily.

You know, where do you see investor interest there?

And kind of where do you think we are at this point?

So I'll call it the fundamental conundrum is this.

Okay.

It's very hard for people to buy below their debt cost.

Right.

Because you actually then have to.

You've got negative leverage, and you got to believe that you're going to get rent growth to get you out of that.

And again, the short rate is five.

Okay.

Tech that.

So you're talking about eight.

Okay.

Or seven or eight.

The long rate is now 4.3.

Pick four five this morning.

Four, five.

So, hey, put 100 at three and a half.

It all worked.

Okay.

At four, four, four, five, it doesn't quite work.

Okay.

Because you put 175 basis points to 200 basis points on that for a commercial mortgage.

Right?

Yes.

Remember, the residential mortgage is probably another 100 basis points on top of that for residential mortgages.

Yep, that's right.

So when you look at that, residential.

Homeowners aren't buying A cap rate.

So that's less important.

True, true.

But they still have their own financing issues.

So when you, when you look at that now, you're like, it's really hard to make the deals work unless you're getting an assumable loan.

Okay.

Because they're still out there.

Okay.

And then you can basically close the bid, ask spread.

Okay.

So that's, that's an opportunity.

You like a market in the Midwest, get a loan that still has eight years to run on it and it was at 3%.

Okay.

You could make that.

That typically is going to require a lot more equity.

Right.

There's equity in there.

There could be also some other fees and assumption fees.

So again, it's got its own issues or you have to have such level of conviction or your capital cost has to be low enough that you can tolerate that negative leverage and hope to basically earn your way out of it.

And you've got to project some kind of rent pop probably in 26, 27, back in the 20 in order to sort of like make it all work.

Okay.

Yes.

Or somebody's got to take a haircut.

Right.

In order to make this thing work.

Right.

Somebody.

Something's got to work here.

Okay.

And so the reason you don't see transactions like supercharged is like it's really hard to line up all of those unless, you know.

So the deals that are getting done tend to be somebody who's got a liquidity issue that they've got to resolve.

Okay.

And they'll sell at the market price today.

That.

Right.

In order.

Which is essentially a cap rate that's going to equal the tenure plus the spread.

Right.

I mean, it's a math problem.

Right.

Like.

Yes.

So, so, so you know.

Yes.

You're getting transactions because, you know, somebody's got an issue that they have to resolve and they're willing to basically take the haircut.

It's easier if they bought the thing in 20, 20, 15, 2016, they had a big run up in value and they say, ah, well, you know what, I didn't make as much money off the peak.

But hail, we hit our numbers, things worked out okay.

And we live to fight another day.

Boom.

Yeah.

And now I can buy something at a more sane value going forward and.

Exactly.

So I'm not saying that that's why our deal is getting done.

Sure.

But the fact of the matter is the peak of 2022 is not going to happen.

The numbers don't line up there.

You haven't had enough rent growth since 2022.

To negate the sort of reduction in values on the other side.

Okay, so, so I would say that's what I'm saying is like there's a stress play of those deals bought at the peak.

We're like, I don't know how it's going to, I don't know how that's going to get resolved.

Okay.

So somebody's got to take a haircut.

Again, deals bought earlier or pre Covid, they won't make as much money as they could have, but okay, they'll do.

Okay.

All right.

And so those deals will sort of move forward.

Look, there's plenty of capital that would like to come off the sidelines, but obviously there's a return expectation and it is reset at the new cost of capital.

Well, and the buyer now is going to have to make assumptions to your point on rent growth to probably make it work.

And.

Or what's my exit cap rate which I'm hearing guys are exiting at the.

Going in or less.

Okay.

In the old days we don't.

Going in.

Yeah, yeah.

Going in we were adding 10 basis points a year for hold.

Right.

If we held something seven years, we'd add 70bps to what we were going in.

And that was our exit.

That's right.

But now you do that today.

It doesn't work.

That's right.

So you have to buy anything.

You have to buy anything.

So you have to play around with someone's assumptions.

But you also have to retain the essence of reality.

Right.

You can't otherwise you're buying into a new problem.

Correct.

That doesn't work.

And when I think about long term, I just don't see a ten year anywhere below three and a half.

Like I just don't see it.

I don't see how you get.

So then I don't see.

Therefore I don't see a mortgage rate on a ten year anything below five and a quarter ever.

Like Again, for a number of periods of time.

I just don't see that happening.

Which historically that's probably right.

In the last 30 years, that's where it's been.

Well, again let's say you get 2% ish inflation.

Right.

And then 100 basis points of real yield on the 10 year.

Okay.

It sort of works.

And you need to get the short rate down to about two and a half with a three and a half to sort of get.

Have an upward sloping yield curve where we're sort of like that's, that's normal.

Ish.

Okay.

Now we're not there and we Were getting close.

We were at a 3, 6 for a moment, for a hot minute, and then it ran away.

Okay.

Yeah.

And that's really based upon.

Okay.

You know, the election, by the way, interest rates started to move before the election, but it was based upon an understanding that neither candidate was going to do anything about the deficit and the amount of debt that's out there.

And that debt has to get either monetized or it has to have a higher yield.

Right.

And anything I'm seeing on inflation, inflation does look like it's coming into that two, two and a half percent handle where it can work.

And we are seeing that in a reduction in the quits rate, a movement lower in the eci, which is the employment cost index.

So all these numbers are sort of lining up.

We're seeing some level of productivity increases and unit labor costs being 2ish, maybe sub 2%.

So all that, you know, from an inflation standpoint, I can see two to two and a half percent because we have some deglobalization going on, reconfiguration of supply chains.

That's kind of inflationary.

But we are seeing out of China goods deflation like crazy.

So that's helping the task move a little easier.

Okay.

Anyway, like, so when we talk about rates, that's, this is the conundrum of like trying to get all this stuff to line out again.

Special situations, yes.

Broad based, you know, happy days are here again.

It's hard to see that sort of work its way out.

But again, you look forward past the supply surge.

Right.

You do see the ability to have consistent rent growth at 4 to 5%, 3 to 5%.

Again, historically, by the way, if you got one point over inflation on rents and expenses grew at 2, 3%, everything worked, all the numbers worked.

Right.

And that is the historic norm, one point over inflation.

That's where I learned for Renko.

I learned at the knee of Terry Considine, a great investor.

He taught me everything I know about multifamily real estate.

He said that's the way the world works.

You just have to like.

And if you get anything above that, you are blessed.

And we got well above it for many years.

Right.

So anything above a three, you're, you're, you're in fact city.

Okay.

You know, that's amazing.

And again, you got to keep your expenses so that your NOI, you get operating leverage.

So you get a 5% NOI increase and then you lever that up, you know, at 65% leverage, you're at a 15 ROE boom.

Everything works.

And if cap rates compress, then it's really a home run home.

Right.

You go from everything works to a home run.

Right.

And so that's.

But even if cap rates don't compress, if you hit those numbers, you're still going to do fine.

Yeah.

It'll be historically the way it was meant to be.

You operate a property.

Right.

And you've done very well.

Right.

You get rich slowly.

I mean, remember, multifamily real estate was not designed to get rich quick.

No.

It was to get rich slowly.

I call this business my get rich slow scheme.

That's what.

Right.

I want to write a book called the Get Rich Slow Scheme.

It's just no one will lie because everyone wants to get rich quick.

Right.

These market conditions have been ahistoric.

Okay.

Both in terms of capital market costs coming down as well as rent growth that has been outside of the historic norms.

Yes, no question.

But to your earlier statements, you still think sort of in spite of some of these, we're kind of in between in many ways, right?

What you're saying?

Yes.

But in spite of that, you feel like now is a good time to buy even though there's a little bit of pain in some of these markets with oversupply.

Yeah, rent's flattening, maybe rent's going down.

I mean, I think you just have.

I think you have to underwrite reality and say, look, yes, if I'm going to buy in Charlotte and Raleigh, Atlanta, Dallas, these are great economies, business friendly economies.

They're going to grow.

They've been dynamic.

I actually did the data back 50 years just to look at population growth and supply response.

And they are more cyclical in nature, but the cyclical is with an upward trend.

Okay.

It's just that this particular cycle, the rent pop was big, the supply pop was big, and now the downside's big.

But they've always, always had had supply responses that come in waves.

Just the ways haven't been that big, but they've always done well because the economies and the public policy consensus around growth have been solidified.

Those cities have grown, they've expanded.

Right.

Heck, Dallas is like up to the white, up to the Oklahoma border now.

Okay.

And quite frankly a little bit beyond it.

And they have consistent public policy consensus around growth.

They're making infrastructure investments in their areas.

They can handle the population growth.

The key thing that I look for, and we've done analysis around it, is when the public policy consensus on growth breaks and when the infrastructure investment stops, then you can see that within 10 years that city is gonna blow up, right?

Because it can't handle.

And then everything's gonna be about allocating scarcity as opposed to facilitating abundance flat out.

And so those are the.

Again, growth requires a public policy and private market consensus, right?

That the community wants to grow.

Once it decides that it doesn't want to grow, then it's allocating scarcity.

And that usually is not a good place for multifamily investors over the long run.

For a short period of time, sure, it's great.

What I have seen again and again and again is while you can make money in a society, community that allocates scarcity, okay?

At some point in time, the community is going to revolt, particularly around housing, and say, we don't think it's appropriate from a public policy consensus for people to make money on housing, forgetting that housing facilitates growth and is a piece of infrastructure.

That's why it works.

That's why the US is the largest and best and most liquid housing asset class in the world, which is why it attracts a tremendous amount of foreign capital.

I deal with folks from Europe, Canada, South America, Asia.

They're investing in the US multifamily because it is a deep asset type.

And you can't invest in this kind of asset type in many places around the world.

And especially with the kind of financing.

You can get, it is just not available at scale to allocate the kind of capital that can be allocated, which is where you have Australian money, you have Korean money, you have Japanese money.

For a time, you had Chinese money, you have European capital, you have Middle Eastern capital, you have an amazing amount of Canadian capital all focused on U.S.

multifamily in addition to the normal amount of U.S.

domestic capital.

It is a very deep capital market.

And the GSEs provide such a stable source of financing that no other countries really have.

Right?

And the GSEs have chosen to use it wisely.

Now, I will tell you, just to be honest, between you and me and the fence post, the thing that gave me the biggest scare, the biggest scare was the proposals that were floating around, which we worked on and combated, was to basically attach rent control to GSE financing.

It was that close.

Don't kid yourself.

Well, and depending on the administration who won last night, it could have been even closer.

It was that close.

The current, when we were.

When they.

And we knew, I knew in 20, mid 23, all the RFIs started coming out for the administration from the White House, from the fhfa, they were all pushing to basically do something where they could run on fixing, quote, unquote, housing.

Yes.

And they could use the lever of the GSEs, which is a big one.

Because 60% of multifamily to the ever living credit of the NMHC and NAA, they were able to basically beat that back.

And there was some acceptance on fee structures and disclosure, which was fine.

Right.

You know, of all the things that could have happened, the actual proposals that came out of the administration were the least bad thing.

And if you recall, Harris and Biden talked about rent control and they tied it to depreciation.

That really was a gar.

That was a.

That was.

That was not a serious proposal.

That honestly, that was a press release and everybody knew it and they knew it.

The stake through the heart, and they did not need a law to do it, was to tie rent control to GSE financing.

There's nothing that prevents that from happening.

Yeah.

Well, and having said that, they set the precedent during COVID as you know, by start starting to encroach and saying, okay, now you have to offer an additional 30 days before you evict and.

Right.

So.

And that never went away.

Right.

By the way, that's still in play because I'm a big user of GSE capital.

So it does scare me because they have a lot of power and leverage and with a swipe of a pen.

Right.

Can instant policies.

Yeah.

So my point is public policy does matter in multifamily.

So you are.

So you have a modicum of exposure.

It is a modicum.

It could be a lot worse other ways.

But that was a close call.

That.

That was a close call.

And it's bad public policy.

It's bad for the renters.

It's bad long term.

It's just every possible way you can imagine.

It's just horrible.

So, yes, I know you're preaching.

Yeah.

And so thank you for working and beating back that initiative.

I had a very small.

I had a very small role to play.

Mostly was the NMHC and na.

They did an amazing job.

So as your members of those organizations, your contributions were well spent.

Yeah, no, they always do.

By the way, I didn't hear what happened to Prop 33 in California.

I haven't checked that.

It got defeated by a lot.

Wow.

The last count was about 60.

40.

Yes.

Wow.

Well, what do you know that means correct sanity in California, which is an insane place, as you know.

Okay.

And a bipartisan sanity.

Right.

So that means a lot of renters themselves realize there was not a policy.

It's bad again.

It's a It's a supply.

It fundamentally is adding supply.

That's, that's really the issue.

And I'm thrilled that, that the voters of California.

Yeah.

Now as am I, because you know, as California goes, some of the crazy ideas spread.

Yeah.

And so I don't own anything here by choice other than the office building I'm sitting in.

Yes.

But I know other city states were looking at Prop 33.

Yeah.

Let's see if it passes all horrible.

Okay.

Yeah, so it's all good.

So listen Jeff, we're bumping up on just over an hour here, so I think we probably need to wrap.

But I guess one, one sort of final question.

If you could sort of look in your crystal ball in the multifamily industry and specifically, you know, kind of workforce housing, now that we've had really a historic President Trump getting elected last night.

Again, it was an unprecedented event.

I mean where do you kind of see, where do you see the industry playing out if you had a crystal ball over the next say five or ten years?

Well, fundamentally I love multifamily.

I've been around it 20 years.

I've seen it, how it grows.

I'm very optimistic about it as both for meeting a consumer need and as an investable class.

There's not a, it's a false trade off to say you can't do both.

I do believe that you have to look, you have to really look past the next year, year and a half of new supply being delivered.

Okay.

So let's, let's look past that because there will be short term pain in these 20 markets as this stuff gets absorbed.

There's no question.

But let's look beyond that.

Right.

Most folks are looking into a five to ten year horizon.

Okay.

There we still haven't resolved the housing shortage, hasn't been resolved.

If interest rates stay as they are, then it's unlikely you're going to have a boon of single family sales, which means that retention in multifamily will still tend to be pretty good.

Okay.

So all and again going past 27, a lot of deals don't work in terms of development.

Okay.

Now to the extent that there is a true radical change in local zoning permitting and requirements, and that could happen.

Okay.

But that will take time.

I continue to see the ability to have rent growth in excess of inflation, 1 to 3% in excess of inflation.

That's rather durable.

Right.

Remember, if housing costs are 30 ish percent or 35% of incomes, if you have modest 3% wage growth, you can easily have 3 4% rent growth and not crowd out the rest of the consumer budget.

So I view that as absolutely sustainable and we've seen it before.

So the economics of the fundamentals all work in terms of it being an investable class where both the revenue and the expense structure are an operating basis can work where unless there's a radical change in planning and zoning policy and even if it did, it would take five to seven years to work its way through the development cycle.

Yes.

So I continue to think that this is a.

You can continue to see rent growth.

I do believe in dynamic economies that have a consensus for growth.

I believe in a lot of smaller markets.

I believe in the Midwest.

I'm looking at demographic changes, deglobalization, really the build out of the energy infrastructure all along the Gulf coast and the growth of the petrochemical industry and manufacturing.

They won't be as labor intensive as maybe some people would hope.

But there's a radical amount of reindustrialization that's going to occur.

It starts with the oil and gas industry, goes into petrochemicals, goes into plastics and follows from there.

So fundamentally I believe in, you know, kind of the Southeast Texas, the Mountain west and to a certain extent smaller cities in those areas because they will continue to grow at the margin.

You know, among the major kind of, you know, global centers are we call our core cities.

That will depend upon the level of commitment that they have to re energizing growth in their metropolitan areas.

They're going to have to get control of their public safety issues first.

Security always comes first.

Then they're going to have to sort of actually encourage business to be there.

I think New York has a bit of a leg up in that regard.

Boston's not so bad, Chicago's.

I think San Francisco and Oakland need a little help in that regard.

And that really is just are there enough.

I grew up in New York in the 70s and things got really bad before there was a public policy consensus around that growth was desirable.

I don't think maybe California is beginning down that road and there may be some great opportunities to buy because remember, fortunes were made in New York City right around the late 70s, early 80s when the public policy consensus turned.

Now I can't tell you whether that condition is the same in California or in Seattle or in Portland, Oregon.

But I can tell you is local investors who are clued into their local economies and can see that inflection point and then can invest into it will have legendary wealth opportunities.

But it really same thing with Minneapolis.

Will these Cities fundamentally hit that inflection point where they want to grow again and are willing to do the things necessary to grow.

I don't know that.

I can't tell you that.

But someone who is local and is close could do incredibly well in that investment strategy if they can pick that inflection point.

And that's where I'll leave with.

I'm optimistic about multifamily as an asset class and housing as an asset class.

It's got tremendous opportunities, it's imbued with the public interest.

So I think it's good for society, I think it's good for the investor.

And the best run organizations provide great services to their clients, create value.

And we've seen this again and again and again and again.

That government run housing doesn't work.

Doesn't work.

That the private sector has to be engaged and activated in order to provide housing for Americans.

And that's what I would argue with.

Which is why what makes, you know, what we do, what I call affordable with a small, a compelling and great business.

Yes, yes.

And providing high quality at low cost to provide clean, basic quality housing.

Right.

Keep the community safe, have high resident quality standards, expect people to pay their rent because it raises the standards within the community that people will meet their obligations and their responsibilities.

And it's incumbent upon the owner of the property to provide a safe, clean and stable housing environment.

At AIMCO, I operated 100,000 workforce housing units.

And that was in my mind, the moral foundation of what we did.

Okay.

And we were able to energize our entire operations team around that mission.

Okay.

That we provide something positive for the world.

We expect our residents to meet their commitments and we commit ourselves to providing a great living environment for them to reach their potential.

And I'm very proud of what we did, what my team did at aimco to provide that kind of housing.

And I think our industry can feel very proud about what it does and again, imbued with the public interest and you know, a great public service and a great revenue and wealth opportunity as well.

Yes.

Amen, Jeff.

Very well said.

So I want, I want to thank you for joining me on the show today.

I think there were some great insights you provided in what we know is a very compelling asset class.

Even though there's some short term oversupply issues.

Right.

It is not systemic at all.

And I like you, I'm convinced that workforce housing not only holds an important spot in overall affordability landscape.

Right.

To provide housing in that realm, but should deliver outstanding long term results.

For investors as well.

So thanks again, Jeff.

Appreciate your time.

Thank you.

Bye bye.

You're welcome back anytime, my friend.

My pleasure.

I hope today's show inspired you just a little bit, and I would like to thank my guests once again.

I'm excited to bring you more episodes with interesting and informative experts to help you navigate your way to wealth and health.

Thanks for listening to the Real Estate Wealth Podcast.

The Real Estate Wealth Podcast is produced.

By Truth Work Media.

Our producer is Seth Creekmore with support from McKenna Smith.

For show notes and more information about this podcast, visit edeloy.

Com.

For more information about CalCap Advisors, visit us at calcap.

Com or follow us on Twitter at calcapadvisors.

I'm your host, Ed Alloy, and thank you for listening.