So we're going to

call this an emergency

podcast is probably

what I would is.

Do you think

that's a fair

Emergency.

Emergency.

Yep.

today is R U OK?

Day.

Really important day

for checking in on your

mates and yourself.

And we've got someone

here to navigate

through these

conversations because

I know sometimes they

can be difficult.

, I know it's something

that Matt and I do

with each other often,

checking in we are.

But we like to bring

smart people in and

I know Julie has an

incredibly high IQ.

That's why we

brought her in.

just with R U OK?

It should be every

day, but we just

celebrating one day.

So you should ask all

the time, but it is

a, we are celebrating

the one day as to

champion it and make

sure that people are

going out of their way.

If they're a little

bit scared to ask

someone, they have the

confidence to do so.

But hi, Julie.

Sorry.

so fun.

No, you're spot on.

not just one day of the

year where you want to

check in on your mates

and see how they're

going, but it is a

day to highlight and

remember how important

it is to be doing this,

yeah, really regularly.

It's

And just for my own

interest, do you guys

know how long this

sort of thing's been

going around for?

Oh, you're okay.

It's a few, it's

definitely, since

I can remember it,

I don't actually

have any idea.

think it's really good

that we don't know

when it started I feel

like then it's been

going for a long time,

I know we feel like

there's a day for

everything these

days, but this is

probably one for me

that sits right at

the top of those days.

It's super important

to talk about.

so being builders aim

and in our construction

industry, men, we're

predominantly men

and we're not just

appealing to men here.

There are women

and other people in

this industry who

do have problems.

I do have their

struggles, which

is normal.

It's normal.

Both, both Hamish and

I have our problems.

But what we want to

know and I start to

talk about is that

conversation to start

that conversation do

you go to someone and

be like, are you okay?

, and really it

is that simple.

You can walk up to a

friend, a colleague,

anyone about,

Hey, are you okay?

So Julie, if you

sort of see a mate

who's maybe not quite

themselves, and you

don't want to be

awkward, sort of, how

would you approach

that situation?

Any tips you

could give us?

Yeah, for sure.

It's a good point you

raised because often,

, if, if this is not

something that you're

doing regularly, you

can, a lot of people

feel a bit unsure

about how to bring

it up and they're

sometimes worried about

making things worse.

, but it actually

doesn't have to be

that complicated.

Just being genuine and

showing that you care

is really important.

And just something as

simple as, Hey, I've

noticed you don't

see myself lately,

is everything okay?

That as simple as

that can open up the

door, , you know,

show your concern.

It's not judgment.

it's helpful to

possibly add something

specific that you

might've noticed.

So I've noticed

you've been a

bit quiet lately.

Or you don't seem

like yourself lately.

Is everything

all right?

So the idea there is

to show them that you

genuinely are looking

at them and making it

clear that, , you've

noticed something.

So being it, are

you okay day?

when someone

asks, say today.

Should you be

like, are you okay?

I've noticed

this recently.

Or is today

an okay day?

Just like, hey,

are you okay?

I mean, that's a

great question.

Are you okay?

The thing about are

you okay is it's a,

what we call a closed

question where you

can answer yes or no.

So a closed question

is a yes, no

answer question.

The questions that

really help are

what we call open

ended questions.

So you don't seem like

yourself these days,

you know,, what's going

on, which is a bit

harder to answer with

a yes or a no question.

there's definitely

nothing wrong with

saying, are you okay?

I mean, it's

really important.

Um, Next level would

be asking what's called

an open question,

which is, tends

to bring more out.

Yeah.

but , let's face

it we are probably

speaking to a bunch

of blokes in the

industry predominantly

on this podcast.

You know, thank you

for all the women

listening, but I guess

broadly speaking, the

construction industry

is full of men.

, and a lot of blokes

just shrug it off

and they're like,

nah, nah, I'm fine.

I'm all good.

Don't worry about it.

What do we do in those

situations when we.

We do have a feeling

or an inkling that

something is wrong

because they haven't

been themselves before.

What do we do in

that situation?

I mean, that's

definitely something

you're going to hear

Hamish, isn't it?

That sort of, yeah,

no, no, I'm fine.

Don't worry about it.

I'm good.

You can add on to that.

Look that's cool.

But if you ever want

to talk, I'm here.

And that's sort of

following it up, not

necessarily taking

on their first

response as, , the

actual response,

what's going on.

And it's also really

good to follow up later

if you're concerned.

So sometimes they need

to know that you're

serious and that you're

going to continue.

to be interested in how

they are and you're in

that for the long run.

It's not sort

of a ticker box.

Hey, are you okay.

Are you okay.

Beauty.

I've ticked my box.

It's actually

about going, okay.

but if you ever want

to talk, I'm here.

So following it

up, it's pretty

normal, isn't it?

Like we all kind of

walk around and go,

Oh, how are you today?

Oh yeah.

Good, good.

Thanks.

You know, , it's an

automatic response.

And so following it

up, is really helpful.

I know we follow up

on clients when they

haven't got back to

us or trades and I

think this is a very

important thing that

you probably should

be following up,

especially if someone

said, hey, I'm having

this bit of a struggle.

I need a day or

here or there.

But I know when you

ask someone like,

how are you going?

, and then someone

might be like,

look, I'm struggling

with this, I've had

this problem, I'm

struggling with sleep.

Might have broken

up with a partner.

, how do you know to keep

going without making

them like, there's too

many questions, making

them feel uncomfortable

that you're invading in

their personal space?

Oh, that's a

good question.

I don't think that

you can ask too

many in that it's

all right to ask

follow up questions.

In this instance, it

might be more around,

you might be feeling

uncomfortable because

somebody sort of

started to talk about

something difficult.

And it's about being

able to regulate

yourself, which

sometimes is about just

sitting there quietly

and not feeling the

awkward space and just

gently asking follow up

questions rather than

feeling like, Oh, I

haven't said anything.

Ask another, ask

another, ask another.

what about like on

the flip side of that,

Julie, when you get

the response of, you

know, I don't want

to bother anyone or

I'll handle it myself.

I've experienced

some people in my

life in the industry.

Guys say, I'm going to

tough it out myself.

I'm going to

handle it myself

and I'll be okay.

do we get past that?

Yeah, I think

you're spot on.

It's, one of the

challenges, but I mean,

even strongest people

need help, whatever,

that idea of strong is.

So being able to

open up and ask for

support actually

makes you stronger.

So it's, it's not

a sign of weakness

and sometimes simply

stating that out loud.

So to say I've been

through difficult

times myself, and I

found what actually

helped was talking

to somebody about it.

you know, reaching

out and talking is a

great way to take care

of yourself and make

sure you're not burning

out or stressing out.

It's really important.

I want to talk about

burnout for a sec,

Julie, because I know,

I'm a pretty motivated

person and I often feel

strung out, burnt out.

Like I'm, I'm

ticking one thing

off the list and then

another one comes up.

, I know I can kind of

see those signs in

myself and I think I've

got pretty good at.

Managing that I know

the tools that I

use now to help me

through those things.

What are some of the

things that we should

look at in our friends

and our mates and

stuff like that, or,

or even colleagues.

, if we think that they

might be heading down

that path of burnout.

So,

that's a good

question, Hamish.

So burnout and mental

health issues, they

don't always show up

in obvious ways, but

So some things to

look out for would

be things along the

lines of if somebody's

looking a bit more

irritable than usual.

If they're avoiding

social events or

social occasions,

um, and starting to

withdraw, it might

be a shift in mood.

So they might feel

seen, sorry, flat or

tired all the time,

or they might be

getting More angry

or frustrated than

they normally would.

So it's essentially

looking for shifts

and changes in

behavior and attitude.

They're the things

that we would start

to look out for.

You might also see

things like increased

drinking or increased

drug taking or

increase other types

of coping mechanisms

or maladaptive

coping mechanisms.

So those changes,

and you know, for

ourselves, we want

to look out for that

in ourselves too.

So this R U OK.

It's not just

about others.

Are they okay?

It's also about

ourselves.

So you want to look out

for your warning signs.

Things like if you're

feeling constantly

drained, you're not

enjoying things like

you used to, you're

having difficulty

focusing, they could

also be signs that

you're starting to

struggle and you need

to take a step back or

or access some care.

think every trade and

builder is, I think

it's probably fair

to say that there's

times where you

grind and you grind

very hard, probably,

actually, probably

most industries, but

I think sometimes

people will use burnout

as a badge of honor

and they wear it as

that badge of honor.

And I think that's,

Brad, when we spoke

to him he talked

about that and I think

it's really important

that you don't

ignore those signs.

And that you are able

to step back and listen

to people around you

who might be giving

you advice or not

advice but like, hey,

you're not yourself.

Like you're always

working or you always

stress like that

they, they're real key

signs that something's

not going right you

should seek help.

But I reckon a lot like

I reckon I've ignored

those signs at times,

I probably still do

to today at times.

And I just think,

look, it's stress.

I'll get over it and.

have a high stress

threshold and I

just accept it.

what about Julie,

if we ask someone

how they are,

like, are you okay?

And then they, I guess,

start sharing something

that's quite serious.

Thanks.

Like something like,

Oh, you know what?

I'm actually not okay.

And, and I'm actually

having feelings

that might make you

start thinking that

was suicidal or

something like that.

Like, that's

pretty heavy.

Like, how do we, I

guess, navigate that?

Yeah, I'm really

glad you asked

that question.

It's a really

important one.

If somebody mentions

feeling hopeless

or talks about not

wanting to be here or

makes statements that

suggest that they're

contemplating or

thinking about suicide,

it's really important

to take that seriously.

We don't want to panic,

but we don't want

to ignore it either.

So the first thing

to do is to stay

calm and listen.

And you can say

something along

the lines of, I'm

really sorry you're

feeling that way,

but I'm really

glad you told me.

Let's figure out how we

can get you some help.

Yeah.

And then we want to

encourage them to reach

out to their GP or a

counselor or lifeline.

But if you're really

concerned right then

and there, do not

hesitate to call

emergency services.

Yeah.

It's really important.

You know, we've worked

together a little bit

for a while now, and I

always use that example

of a heart attack.

So, if you saw somebody

and they were having

symptoms of something

like a heart attack,

you wouldn't think

twice about accessing

care quickly.

It's exactly the same.

If you're worried about

somebody and you feel

that they're in danger,

then absolutely,

we either want to

help them get help.

Can I drive

you to the GP?

Can I take you

to the hospital?

But if you're really

concerned, in all of

my years of calling

services for people,

the outcome has

been they may have

been a little bit

annoyed or angry or

upset at the time,

and then afterwards

very grateful.

It,

I'm very happy to sit

through discomfort,

irritation, annoyance,

pissed off, angry,

whatever, for the

longer term outcome.

Yeah.

it's probably something

in the 20 odd episodes

that we've recorded.

It's one of the few

things that really

stick in my head

is that analogy of

the heart attack.

I think it's, fabulous

and it's probably one

of the best bits of

advice and guidance

that I would if I

put in that situation

that I'd feel

completely comfortable.

Knowing that, look

whatever come at me

for post ad, I'd be

able to deal with it.

Knowing that there

would be something

coming back the

other way, being

grateful for the

decision that I made.

But I know it, I

know it can be really

scary to ask those

direct questions.

is there a concern

of like, you

might make things

worse by bringing,

bringing it up?

That's a really

common fear, Matt.

But the research

solidly shows that

asking somebody about

if they're thinking

about suicide does

not increase the risk.

And in fact, it can

really be a huge

relief for the person

because it shows that

you're not afraid to

talk about it and that

you, you really care.

And it's much better

to ask the question,

you're than to avoid

it and risk missing

that opportunity for

somebody to know that

you care and to feel

that relief and then

potentially access

whatever services it

is that they need to

keep them safe or get

them back on track.

I asked someone a

few weeks ago, like

directly asked them,

you know, a pretty

confronting question.

And I know that it

was actually really

difficult for me to

do it, but actually

afterwards, I felt

really relieved, you

know, there was, you

know, lots of tears

and, and you really

great conversations

afterwards.

And I think actually

the whole process

of that other person

just, letting go a

lot of stuff and, you

know, problem shared

as a, problem halved.

And, you know, I

definitely did see

some changes in

behavior after that.

And, and I know I

actually asked Julie

for some help in that

situation and, and I've

asked for some advice.

So, you know, I'm

actively using

the advice that

we're getting

on this podcast.

So, hopefully other

people out there

can take Some of

the information that

we're talking about

today and use it in

their own lives for,

helping other people

and even themselves.

Yeah, good on

you, Hamish.

You know, that's

living experience

of, it actually shows

that you care and it

actually shows that

you're taking seriously

how they are and it's

often quite a relief.

And then you'll

either get an answer

of yes or no, and

if it's yes, then

you've got information

that you can act on.

And if it's no then you

also know that there's

not risk at play.

So if someone's

listening now it

doesn't have to be

right now, though

it can be anytime

in the future.

And you might be

thinking, I want

to help a mate.

I'm not sure if

they need it.

How do you know

if you should ask?

yeah, I like that

question because, I

think it's never going

to be a bad thing.

, I mean, what's the

worst that can happen

if you ask someone

if they're okay?

what's going

on for them.

And there's literally

nothing going on.

I don't really know a

person that doesn't at

least have something

going on for them, but

It's very much around.

If you've noticed

changes in their

behavior, things like

feeling withdrawn, more

irritable, or just not

themselves, it's just

always worth asking.

Even if they're not

like in a really bad

place, just checking

can be a way to open

up the conversation

and let them know.

That you're

there for them.

always going to

be better to ask

than just assuming

everything's fine.

what about if I'm

not okay, how do

I take the first

step to reach out?

That's again

an important

thing to cover.

Like it can be really

hard to sort of reach

out if you're the one

that's struggling.

But it's just such

an important step.

So the first thing

to remember, it's

okay not to be okay.

I mean that is the

tagline, but it really

is an important thing.

It's, it's

not abnormal.

There's nothing

wrong with you.

If you're not feeling

okay, and you don't

have to have everything

figured out before

you talk to someone.

It just could be as

simple as going up

to a mate and saying,

I'm feeling a bit off

lately, can we chat?

Or if that feels

too hard, you could

start with your GP

or a counsellor.

But just opening up

to someone, sometimes

it's the hardest

part at the start.

But once you do it, it

really tends to make

things start to feel

a lot more manageable.

I'm thinking about

my day here today

and literally

those words coming

out of somebody's

mouth saying, Oh,

just talking about

it was helpful.

Because sometimes we

think, oh, talking

about it's not going

to change anything.

True, but it often

takes off a lot of the

load and the stress

and the distress.

Yeah.

So it's a sign of

strength, definitely

not weakness

to reach out.

And it's that first

time that someone

might reach out or say,

ask, or tell someone

they're not doing okay.

It can be a

massive barrier.

Well, they might think

it's a barrier, but,

and it is, but it also

isn't at the same time.

And there's no point

just thinking like,

oh, look, I'll just

deal with it myself.

And then just, it

just accumulates

and piles up.

And I'd say the

older generations

are more like that.

I think younger kids

these days are probably

more likely to speak

out about some things.

But when is

it happening?

It just piles up.

And so on a day like,

Are you okay day?

What would you say to

someone who's maybe

listening right now

and thinking, I don't

want to bother anyone

with my problems.

That's a really

common feeling and a

really common thought,

especially when you're

feeling flat and low.

I don't want to

bother someone.

I don't want to

burden someone.

And that's often a

type of thinking that

comes up when you

are feeling that way.

But I have to say

that Talking about how

you're feeling does not

mean you're a burden.

So everyone has

moments where they

need support, and

it really is okay

to ask for help.

your family and friends

wanna be there for you.

So think about this,

if the shoe's on the

other foot, is it

gonna be a burden?

If somebody reaches out

to you and says, Hey,

I'm feeling a bit flat.

Can I have a chat?

Of course you're

gonna do that.

It's not a big deal.

But we often have

this view of ourselves

that we're gonna

be burdensome.

So if someone asks,

are you okay and you're

not, it's actually all

right to say, actually,

yeah, I'm not crash

hot or I'm struggling

or I'm having real

difficulty here.

I know in my

experience, you know,

when I've opened up

to friends and I could

probably even speak

of doing this both of

you on, you know, in,

in, in the middle of

a podcast, but also,

you know, individually,

like, I think we

forget how much our

friends are actually

there to support us.

Like, I actually

think we don't realize

how much our friends

want us to be happy

as much as we want

them to be happy.

Yeah.

And we probably don't

realize that until

we actually start

that conversation.

So like days like

today, are you okay?

They, you know, I

really hope that it

doesn't lose it's

it's, it's meaning

and get watered down.

Cause it is really

important to, to start

these conversations

because trust me,

you might give

a shit about you

Exactly Hamish, I

mean it's interesting

isn't it, most of us

would absolutely be

more than willing to

listen to a friend.

And so that's a

question we often use

in therapy actually,

how would you talk

to a friend or what

would you suggest

a friend would do,

because sometimes

it's difficult when

we're thinking about

ourselves but your

friends are not going

to necessarily know

you're going through

something unless

you say it, and if

somebody asks you

if you're okay, it's

because they care.

Um, and it's always

going to be better to

have the conversation

rather than try and

carry on by yourself.

I 100 percent

agree and I've had

something go in my

life recently where

that was the exact

same situation where

you'd start wanting

to tell everyone

and just, it's, it's

just huge weight

off your shoulders.

how do you kick it off?

how do you get

that conversation

going without maybe

make it awkward?

Is it just a text?

Is it a call?

Matt, the case is

keep it simple.

So you don't have

to make a big

deal out of it.

Just find a moment

when you're both,

you know, relaxed.

It might be during

lunch or after work.

And just say, Hey,

how's everything going?

You've seemed a

bit off lately.

You don't need

to dive into deep

stuff straight away.

, can I just jump in

really quickly, Julie?

Course.

I've

at the moment and I

see some emails come

up and I just saw an

email come up from my

kid's primary school

saying that next

Thursday is R U OK?

Day.

So, and I've noticed

that in my kids and

I think back to what

I was like or what

the schools were like

when I was in grade

one, grade two, grade

three, primary school,

none of this stuff

was talked about.

And the fact that

this stuff is front

and center now

makes me so happy.

And I actually see it

in my own kids when

they're expressing to

me how they're feeling.

just can't remember

that being a thing

When I was a kid.

So anyway, sorry, I've

got a bit sidetracked

there by an email, but

I thought it was quite

appropriate and, um,

you

getting sidetracked?

Really?

yeah, it's so rare

that I do, I'm so,

I'm so regimented with

everything that I do.

When you have these

conversations, there's

so much like, there's

so much pressure

that takes off.

And the one bit of

advice I'd probably

give to anyone is

you don't have to

be a professional to

make the difference.

You can be a friend.

Actually, you

don't even need

to be a friend.

You can just be someone

that you see that

are not doing well.

It might be someone

grabbing a coffee, you

might not even know

them, you can, and you

know when you visibly

see someone struggling,

someone might be

crying just saying,

Hey, are you okay?

Or is there anything I

can do does go a long

way, but do you ever

get questions Julie

about like, Oh, but

I'm not a professional.

I don't want to ask

those questions.

I'll leave that

to someone else.

Yeah, all the time.

All it takes is,

is being a human

in the world.

I might be a

psychologist.

Yep.

But first and foremost,

I'm a human and

we're all humans.

And that's literally

the only qualification

that we need in this

instance here, which

is just being able

to reach out and

say, you all right?

Is everything

okay there?

what would

we do, Julie?

If we thought our mate

was in serious trouble,

Yeah.

like if they're

really down and you're

worried, it's more than

just a rough patch,

like, what, what do we

do in those situations?

If you're very worried

or you're worried about

somebody's safety and

you're worried that

perhaps they're having

thoughts of hurting

themselves or killing

themselves, yeah,

you want to take some

action and it is okay

to ask that directly.

It's actually quite

important to ask

and you've had that

experience recently

where you've,

moved into that

conversation and asked.

And then if the answer

is yes, we don't

want to leave them

alone and we want to

encourage professional

help immediately.

So that might be

calling a helpline

like Lifeline, might

be making an urgent

GP appointment or it

might be going along

with them to the

emergency department.

So just like that heart

attack, same, same.

If you're worried about

someone's safety right

in that moment, they're

the things that you

would do, wouldn't it?

You jump on the phone.

You take them to the

GP clinic or you go

to emergency so they

would be the same.

So if we're worried

about someone's

safety right in that

moment, it's not

your job to fix it.

Definitely not.

Just like the heart

attack, not your

job to fix it.

But if you're there

and you're able to,

to move somebody

on to, to services

straight away, that's

what we would do.

it goes back to your

heart analogy again,

like imagine the

situation someone's a

heart attack and you

don't ask and they die.

Same, same situation.

And I, again, I go

back to the analogy.

And it's always just

better to ask than

not to I think it's

just really important

that everything we've

spoken about doesn't

just apply to today.

I think that's

the main thing.

And.

And I'm sure

there's other IOK's

charity itself.

And if you can

definitely donate

to them I'm assuming

every dollar to

them does help.

But there's also other

charities out there

who probably have

their own days, but

again, every day is

just as important as

the previous is just

important as the next.

So if you do see

someone that's not

doing okay, if you're

not feeling okay, just,

just ask, or don't be

afraid to speak out.

There are so many

people out there that

are willing to help.

And you'll be so

surprised at the

amount of help you

can actually get

from those around you

and be huge weight

off your shoulders.

it's just this huge

sigh of relief when you

talk to someone about

it and it does help.

So please, please,

please, please reach

out if you aren't

doing too well.

And don't be afraid if

someone does ask you.

Don't be afraid to say,

no, I'm not doing okay.

That just might

be the thing that

breaks you to make

in your journey.

Matt, can I ask

you a question?

No.

you can.

You can.

I'm okay.

I'm always okay.

Look, you have your

days, don't you?

I think it's really

important to know that,

can have your moments

that are not great.

And life is a bit

of a roller coaster

at times, but

like, I'm awesome.

Like I, I've got

a great support

network around me.

I've got

awesome family.

I've got an

awesome wife.

Like I love my job.

Like at the end of the

day, there's, there's

always, the sun will

always rise tomorrow

and there's always

like, if you, there's

a next thing, you just

got to look forward

to it and you've just

got to be positive

and proactive and

understand that when

you're not in those

great headspaces,

there's things you

can do about it.

Like yesterday, I was

not feeling great.

I did some

breathing exercise.

And awesome,

like , it really,

really helped me.

So I'm doing okay,

but Julie, are

you doing okay?

I am doing okay.

Thanks for asking.

Sometimes as a

psychologist, we

don't get asked

that often enough.

I am the same.

I surround myself

with great friends and

really excellent work

colleagues who don't

actually let me get

away with brushing off

any of those questions.

So we're very good at

You know, noticing in

our work colleagues

here if there's been

a shift or a change

and we will follow

that up quite closely,

but no, Matt, I'm,

I'm, I'm really okay.

Thank you.

And you just made

a point on your

work colleagues.

If you don't have a

network around you,

that is still okay.

There are so many

helplines and

things you can go

to just Google that.

I'm not feeling okay.

Okay.

Who can I speak to?

I think, are you okay?

Beyond blue.

They all, they

all do something.

So if you don't have

that support network,

that is just as okay.

and there are options

for you and anyone

else who wants to

use them as well.

And Hamish, are you

Awesome.

Do you know what?

Today I am.

I've had a really

good week this week.

Really great things

happening with work.

But I tell you, like

there's been times in

the last two weeks.

That I haven't

been okay.

And you know, I guess

things that I've

realized over the

years of knowing the

rhythms of my moods

I guess where my mind

takes me sometimes

that well, one, it's,

it is okay to not

be okay sometimes,

which is why.

I see a psychologist

every three weeks and

have a really good

network of people.

But right now I'm okay.

But there has been

times in the last

couple of weeks where

I haven't been okay.

So, you know, I guess

it's just understanding

now sitting here,

feeling good that

when I do feel bad, I

will feel good again.

It's just a

moment in time.

I don't know for me,

it is, it typically

is just a moment

in time where I'm

trying to figure

something out, but

right now I'm awesome.

Thanks for asking.

absolutely good on you

for being the open,

honest, and glorious

dude that you are

for, speaking out

about how you feel

at times, because I

think that leading by

example is just vital.

It makes it then

okay for other people

to speak up and go,

yeah, you know what?

I'm traveling so

well at the moment.

Can I have a chat?

Which is the

first step.

Absolutely.

The first step.

Awesome.

Julie.

Very, very grateful

we have you on this

podcast, Julie,

because, uh, we

get to project

your awesomeness to

all our listeners.

So thanks again.

will chat Again,

very shortly.